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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Jam The MF on February 24, 2022, 12:54:20 AM

Title: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jam The MF on February 24, 2022, 12:54:20 AM
The shit pot is being stirred, hard and fast.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 25, 2022, 08:04:17 AM
  It has more or less been a war since 2014.  Russia just decided to make a big move sensing weakness in geopolitical adversaries (especially the countries that like to spend all their time lamenting how terrible their founders were and how terrible their societal structures are) and the calculated likelihood it could bring Ukraine or a large swatch of it back to mother Russia. 

  I have no idea how successful Russia will be in that endeavor.  I suspect it is the beginning of some other activity around the globe, China is up next with their big move.  I hope all these moves are resolved in ways that have the smallest loss of life and destruction.  The ripples from these events once they happen are going to be felt for decades.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 25, 2022, 08:18:12 AM
  I do see on interesting thing in a lot of the CNN clips.  They keep showing, and talking about how Ukraine is passing out AKs to the civilians and how great that is to arm the population.   That sure seems counter to the usual talk from CNN (civilians can not fight an army, no need for firearms owned by the public, firearm ownership is for hunting, etc)  regarding the "people" and firearms.  I have no idea how much firearms experience the average Ukrainian has, so that might make for interesting results.  It looks like Ukraine is hoping to get civilians killed for propaganda after the fact though.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 08:45:08 AM
Half the country would prefer to unify with russia and the military either pussied out or was bribed.

Its a full on war with generally low casualties because there are few military folk actually fighting.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: RandyB on February 25, 2022, 08:57:45 AM
It looks like Ukraine is hoping to get civilians killed for propaganda after the fact though.

Do not forget this, because it is correct and accurate
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jeff37923 on February 25, 2022, 11:34:50 AM
I don't think that the Ukraine will go down quietly.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/ukraine-strikes-back-against-russia-as-chaos-continues-to-unfold/news-story/9e1eb73d6e9c8b4968e0a1808a3d57df

I have some Russian artists in my news feed and a lot of them are posting that this act is the will of Putin, but not that of the Russian people.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 25, 2022, 11:44:53 AM
I don't think that the Ukraine will go down quietly.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/ukraine-strikes-back-against-russia-as-chaos-continues-to-unfold/news-story/9e1eb73d6e9c8b4968e0a1808a3d57df

I have some Russian artists in my news feed and a lot of them are posting that this act is the will of Putin, but not that of the Russian people.

  Not too many wars are the will of the people.  I would hazard to say almost NO war is the will of the people.  It takes massive propaganda and often lies to get a population behind sending their young, strong, brave men to die on other people's dirt.   I have no idea as to the Ukrainian capability to repel Russia.   However it turns out, will be a ripple effect across the globe.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 25, 2022, 12:17:23 PM
I don't think that the Ukraine will go down quietly.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/ukraine-strikes-back-against-russia-as-chaos-continues-to-unfold/news-story/9e1eb73d6e9c8b4968e0a1808a3d57df

I have some Russian artists in my news feed and a lot of them are posting that this act is the will of Putin, but not that of the Russian people.

  Not too many wars are the will of the people.  I would hazard to say almost NO war is the will of the people.  It takes massive propaganda and often lies to get a population behind sending their young, strong, brave men to die on other people's dirt.   I have no idea as to the Ukrainian capability to repel Russia.   However it turns out, will be a ripple effect across the globe.
That's true.

It's also true that the main argument in favor of giving government the ability to print money is it's necessary for the government to raise sufficient funds, when there is a threat of war, because if they tried to raise taxes high enough to actually pay for the the war, the populace wouldn't support it.

Makes you wonder.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 25, 2022, 12:31:51 PM
I don't think that the Ukraine will go down quietly.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/ukraine-strikes-back-against-russia-as-chaos-continues-to-unfold/news-story/9e1eb73d6e9c8b4968e0a1808a3d57df

I have some Russian artists in my news feed and a lot of them are posting that this act is the will of Putin, but not that of the Russian people.

  Not too many wars are the will of the people.  I would hazard to say almost NO war is the will of the people.  It takes massive propaganda and often lies to get a population behind sending their young, strong, brave men to die on other people's dirt.   I have no idea as to the Ukrainian capability to repel Russia.   However it turns out, will be a ripple effect across the globe.
That's true.

It's also true that the main argument in favor of giving government the ability to print money is it's necessary for the government to raise sufficient funds, when there is a threat of war, because if they tried to raise taxes high enough to actually pay for the the war, the populace wouldn't support it.

Makes you wonder.

   There is a reason the founders wanted no standing army.   They figured if the USA was invaded, the army would form quickly from citizens.  If the USA wanted to step into a foreign engagement, they would have to have a GREAT case to form up the army. 
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2022, 01:11:59 PM
I don't think that the Ukraine will go down quietly.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/ukraine-strikes-back-against-russia-as-chaos-continues-to-unfold/news-story/9e1eb73d6e9c8b4968e0a1808a3d57df

I have some Russian artists in my news feed and a lot of them are posting that this act is the will of Putin, but not that of the Russian people.

  Not too many wars are the will of the people.  I would hazard to say almost NO war is the will of the people.  It takes massive propaganda and often lies to get a population behind sending their young, strong, brave men to die on other people's dirt.   I have no idea as to the Ukrainian capability to repel Russia.   However it turns out, will be a ripple effect across the globe.
That's true.

It's also true that the main argument in favor of giving government the ability to print money is it's necessary for the government to raise sufficient funds, when there is a threat of war, because if they tried to raise taxes high enough to actually pay for the the war, the populace wouldn't support it.

Makes you wonder.

Printing money is way worse than taxes, since it devalues the currency.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on February 25, 2022, 02:17:26 PM
...
Printing money is way worse than taxes, since it devalues the currency.

Funny how all Western governments do both...

The West (Mostly USA)  played geopolitical games with the lives of millions of innocent Ukrainians, and we are seeing the result when their bluff gets called.

Putin is not a good guy, but pushing Ukraine to join Nato was mind bending idiocy from the start.

It's like if the USSR installed a puppet government in Mexico, and was in talks with them to join the Eastern Block during the Cold war - We would freak out, and wouldn't have it.

Kinda like the whole Cuban missile Crisis thing...

Honestly, what did they think Putin was going to do? He was not going to have Nato troops and weaponry on his border.

Putin is all in.

He has to come out on top. Overthrow our western puppet government in the Ukraine, and install his puppet government. With a newly formed 100% Russian friendly republic on his border.  He will not annex anything, because he wants the buffer states between him and Nato.

The only thing that makes sense was that they actually thought Putin was bluffing, and when he backed down the not-president would then get great photo-ops for "standing up to Putin'.


I will be surprised if this isn't all wrapped up by this time next week...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2022, 02:34:56 PM
...
Printing money is way worse than taxes, since it devalues the currency.

Funny how all Western governments do both...

The West (Mostly USA)  played geopolitical games with the lives of millions of innocent Ukrainians, and we are seeing the result when their bluff gets called.

Putin is not a good guy, but pushing Ukraine to join Nato was mind bending idiocy from the start.

It's like if the USSR installed a puppet government in Mexico, and was in talks with them to join the Eastern Block during the Cold war - We would freak out, and wouldn't have it.

Kinda like the whole Cuban missile Crisis thing...

Honestly, what did they think Putin was going to do? He was not going to have Nato troops and weaponry on his border.

Putin is all in.

He has to come out on top. Overthrow our western puppet government in the Ukraine, and install his puppet government. With a newly formed 100% Russian friendly republic on his border.  He will not annex anything, because he wants the buffer states between him and Nato.

The only thing that makes sense was that they actually thought Putin was bluffing, and when he backed down the not-president would then get great photo-ops for "standing up to Putin'.


I will be surprised if this isn't all wrapped up by this time next week...

Don't forget their sham "sanctions", Russia can still sell energy and get paid in dollars, Russia's main export is? You guessed it Energy, and the EUSSR is totally dependent on them thanks to the ecoterrorits.

Allegedly Xu Jin Pooh called Putin and told him to stop the war and get negotiating and Putin agreed. IF that's true I bet you're correct.

My conspiracy theory is this was also a dry run for Xi to annex Taiwan, to see what the west would do.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 02:42:24 PM
I agree that there will be a ripple effect across the globe. If this comes across as a success for Putin, then it will embolden not only him, but many other would-be conquerors in other countries. If this comes across as a failure, then it will serve as a deterrent against such invasions.

And this isn't simply a yes-no binary. The worse it is for Putin, the less encouraging it will be. Thus, not just for the freedom of the Ukrainian people, but also for the world in general, I would want it to go poorly - that goes on the international economic front, internally within Russia, the military progress within Ukraine, as well as non-military resistance within Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 02:50:52 PM
Putin is not a good guy, but pushing Ukraine to join Nato was mind bending idiocy from the start.

It's like if the USSR installed a puppet government in Mexico, and was in talks with them to join the Eastern Block during the Cold war - We would freak out, and wouldn't have it.

Kinda like the whole Cuban missile Crisis thing...

But Cuba *did* join the Eastern Bloc during the Cold War, and we did not respond by full-bore invading them. Where we drew the line was that we didn't allow Russia to install nuclear missiles in Cuba.

We haven't come anywhere close to installing nuclear missiles in Ukraine. They haven't even allied with the West, or had any Western military of any kind support them. They were simply in talks about it. That is not a justification for invasion.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 03:15:40 PM
That is not a justification for invasion.

Dude, Ukraine had WMDs - Putin had no choice.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:16:11 PM
The more evidence I see of Zelenskyy's HUGE, clanking brass balls, the funnier it is that Trump thought he could bully the man.

Good luck to the brave people of Ukraine, I hope Putin's own people give him the Mussolini treatment.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on February 25, 2022, 03:17:31 PM
...
We haven't come anywhere close to installing nuclear missiles in Ukraine. They haven't even allied with the West, or had any Western military of any kind support them. They were simply in talks about it. That is not a justification for invasion.


"Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq!"

The US has invaded for far less...

Again, Putin is not a good dude. But he his not having a Nato country on his border.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:18:59 PM
Anonymous just doxxed the Russian Ministry of Defense. And they've crashed the Kremlin's website along with RT.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:20:15 PM
...
We haven't come anywhere close to installing nuclear missiles in Ukraine. They haven't even allied with the West, or had any Western military of any kind support them. They were simply in talks about it. That is not a justification for invasion.


"Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq!"

The US has invaded for far less...

Again, Putin is not a good dude. But he his not having a Nato country on his border.

This will actually grow NATO membership.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:21:03 PM
Good luck to the brave people of Ukraine, I hope Putin's own people give him the Mussolini treatment.
....Be taken over be a foreign government and then executed out of frustration for the foreigners abuse?
Zelensky is a puppet president being moved around by the oligarchs and western powers you twit.

Just shut up.

Anonymous just doxxed the Russian Ministry of Defense. And they've crashed the Kremlin's website along with RT.

Im sure Putin in quivering in his boots already. I hope they send him a million pizzas next.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:24:06 PM
Good luck to the brave people of Ukraine, I hope Putin's own people give him the Mussolini treatment.
....Be taken over be a foreign government and then executed out of frustration for the foreigners abuse?
Zelensky is a puppet president being moved around by the oligarchs and western powers you twit.

Just shut up.

Anonymous just doxxed the Russian Ministry of Defense. And they've crashed the Kremlin's website along with RT.

Im sure Putin in quivering in his boots already. I hope they send him a million pizzas next.

Seems someone likes the taste of Russian boot leather. How does it feel knowing an old woman with a handful of sunflower seeds is more of a man than you?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:27:04 PM
Seems someone likes the taste of Russian boot leather. How does it feel knowing an old woman with a handful of sunflower seeds is more of a man than you?

Most of my extended family LIVES THERE you retard. My mother is currently stuck there!
MOST OF THE MILITARY DESERTED!

You don't understand the political situation there at all. This 'Hoo Ra' bullshit will get a whole bunch of people killed for very little gain to anybody.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on February 25, 2022, 03:30:09 PM
Most of my extended family LIVES THERE you retard. My mother is currently stuck there!
MOST OF THE MILITARY DESERTED!

You don't understand the political situation there at all. This 'Hoo Ra' bullshit will get a whole bunch of people killed for very little gain to anybody.

Exactly.

The West postured, and now millions of innocent Ukrainians are left holding the bag while we watch from the sidelines...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:34:19 PM
Seems someone likes the taste of Russian boot leather. How does it feel knowing an old woman with a handful of sunflower seeds is more of a man than you?

MOST OF THE MILITARY DESERTED!

This is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:39:26 PM
This is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
I have secondhand reports from people that live there, but your delusional so it doesn't matter.

I think your an utterly contemptible human being. Pack your bags and ship out to Ukraine right now. Fucking do it if its a cause worth fighting for.

It boils my blood that people are dying to be a spectactle for people like you.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:44:54 PM
This is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
I have secondhand reports from people that live there, but your delusional so it doesn't matter.

I think your an utterly contemptible human being. Pack your bags and ship out to Ukraine right now. Fucking do it if its a cause worth fighting for.

It boils my blood that people are dying to be a spectactle for people like you.

"Secondhand reports", uh-huh, why am I not surprised? Funny how my thinking that Ukraine deserves freedom from foreign occupation makes me contemptible. You're the one parroting the talking points of a hostile foreign invader who is currently attacking civilains in YOUR country.

Edit: it breaks my heart to see the people of Ukraine under attack. Putin has lied about this every step of the way, fabricated attacks by Ukraine, lied about only "keeping peace" in two regions, etc. You're either a Russian plant, or a traitor to your own country.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 03:48:03 PM
This is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
I have secondhand reports from people that live there, but your delusional so it doesn't matter.

I think your an utterly contemptible human being. Pack your bags and ship out to Ukraine right now. Fucking do it if its a cause worth fighting for.

It boils my blood that people are dying to be a spectactle for people like you.

Tubesock just plays a tough guy on the internet.

But dont worry Shrieking Banshee, with the Russian web site down there is nothing that they can do now.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:48:49 PM
You don't have to be a tough guy to understand why Ukraine is fighting back.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:49:17 PM
Dogshit
Because people like you are the ones that ended up helping Afghanistan. You have kinda helped me put it into the perspective. Your the kind of person the west has flexed for.
I have nothing further left to say to you.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:51:24 PM
Dogshit
Because people like you are the ones that ended up helping Afghanistan. You have kinda helped me put it into the perspective. Your the kind of person the west has flexed for.
I have nothing further left to say to you.

Comparing a fruitless forever war that was started on false pretenses and Ukraine's response to an actual invasion is beyond stupid.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:55:52 PM
But dont worry Shrieking Banshee, with the Russian web site down there is nothing that they can do now.
That and the 'Putin Teh Gay' memes are sure to get him packing.

Just so the non-retards get a sense of perspective: Ukraine is a country filled with people like anywhere else. But like many Ex-soviet bloc country, lacked any real sense of national identity because it was a vassal state for so long (Im talking a period of hundreds of years). Without any real unity sans 'Fuck the genocidal russians' it fell to corruption and division, with many sub-groups wanting different things. Some wanted to be more European and others wanted to be more Russian.
As a result the levers of internal power mostly belong to corrupt oligarchs and the general citizenry apathetic about the place they live in. This makes it a very attractive target for a man like Putin (who Il state for the peanut gallery, is insane and stupid for doing this).

As it stands right now, Ukraine cannot win.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2022, 04:11:38 PM
This is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
I have secondhand reports from people that live there, but your delusional so it doesn't matter.

I think your an utterly contemptible human being. Pack your bags and ship out to Ukraine right now. Fucking do it if its a cause worth fighting for.

It boils my blood that people are dying to be a spectactle for people like you.

Tubesock is a filthy commie scum, this is just another thing he knows/understands jack shit but likes to talk about. And since the Orange Man Bad (who is both Orange and Bad) was kinda sorta against the Ukranian regime then he must be in favor of because the Orange Man is Bad.

Funny things is I bet Trump being kinda crazy was keeping Putin, Pooh and the idiot from North Korea at bay.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 04:15:06 PM
Funny things is I bet Trump being kinda crazy was keeping Putin, Pooh and the idiot from North Korea at bay.
I don't know if he really was or not. Im not in the mood for 'Repubs/Demos'. I don't see this as a 'Own' on Biden. Currently stuff just sucks.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jeff37923 on February 25, 2022, 04:40:31 PM


Edit: it breaks my heart to see the people of Ukraine under attack.

No, it doesn't.

You are just another troll on the Internet who laughs at the tragic events. You are beneath contempt. Your own avatar quote is, "I'M JUST HERE TO LAUGH AT YOU."

Fuck off already.


Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 25, 2022, 05:02:03 PM
None of the players involved are white hats. Remember that.

Ukraine would routinely fuck with the pipelines feeding Russian oil to Europe. Russia, of course, has been playing silly buggers for a while with Ukraine territory. Europe is made up of feckless retards, and the U.S. leadership couldn't plan a kindergarten birthday party.

But it's all Trump's fault. Even though Putin made no moves during Trump's tenure. Despite Trump being a 'puppet'.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 05:15:39 PM
Funny things is I bet Trump being kinda crazy was keeping Putin, Pooh and the idiot from North Korea at bay.
I don't know if he really was or not. Im not in the mood for 'Repubs/Demos'. I don't see this as a 'Own' on Biden. Currently stuff just sucks.

Again, sorry for what your family's going through, Shrieking Banshee. Yesterday I went to a demonstration in front of SF City Hall organized by the Nova Ukraine organization, and heard a lot of Ukrainian-American speakers. I was serious before about what Ukrainian charity to give to - I'd be interested in your input. I'm still leaning right now towards United Help Ukraine.

https://unitedhelpukraine.org/


None of the players involved are white hats. Remember that.

Ukraine would routinely fuck with the pipelines feeding Russian oil to Europe.

WTF? The people who are the bad guys here are the ones pushing in invading armies to conquer Ukraine - i.e. the Russians. Nothing that Ukraine did to Russia justifies or excuses this. I can't comprehend anyone who thinks that "it's complicated" as opposed to the Russians being the bad guys. I have friends in Russia, and they think exactly the same. This was someone I met at the demonstration yesterday:

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274753436_10159173067513271_145243393026291202_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=SVK1mj-PgeIAX8mBa4H&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_gXz8awmoahTMF1DLbSB5uH_cB-SnF9d8smzLp0Hfpgw&oe=621D5D50)
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 05:22:33 PM
I can't comprehend anyone who thinks that "it's complicated" as opposed to the Russians being the bad guys.
As he said white hats. As in cowboy. This isn't black hat white hat. This is the good, the bad, and the ugly. As in all the actors here are degrees of grey. Russia is the blackest, but Ukraine was a ugly country way before they started meddling. And 'The good' have their own interests invested in it, and don't mind if it ends up a punching bag if they got to play keep-away with Putin.

In terms of charity Id say find things focused on helping refugees. Those are the people I think will really need the help and have reduced chances of being corrupt.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 05:30:14 PM
I can't comprehend anyone who thinks that "it's complicated" as opposed to the Russians being the bad guys.

Fact check, true.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 25, 2022, 05:31:09 PM
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274753436_10159173067513271_145243393026291202_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=SVK1mj-PgeIAX8mBa4H&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_gXz8awmoahTMF1DLbSB5uH_cB-SnF9d8smzLp0Hfpgw&oe=621D5D50)

Wait, is he apologizing as a Russian for Russia's actions, or is he apologizing for being Russian? If the former, that's silly, but I can appreciate the sentiment. If the latter, ugh.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on February 25, 2022, 05:44:30 PM
But dont worry Shrieking Banshee, with the Russian web site down there is nothing that they can do now.
[snipped for brevity] This makes it a very attractive target for a man like Putin (who Il state for the peanut gallery, is insane and stupid for doing this).
I agree almost entirely with your post (and hope your Mom and extended family are okay). The only thing I’ll disagree on is the Putin is stupid part.

With the whole EU and even America dependent on Russian oil because our insane ecofreaks have insisted we cut off our own energy production there was no way either could impose any meaningful sanctions on Russia without collapsing their economies.

In other words, he went in knowing their couldn’t be any meaningful repercussions from those most likely to object (vs. during the Trump administration where the US energy policy would have allowed more serious sanctions).

He also went in knowing he had sufficient control to quash any opponents to his goals at home and doesn’t give two wet farts what foreign countries who’ve been demonizing him for decades think of him… so what if they say he’s “triple-plus bad” instead of just “double-plus bad” now?

Hell, our country is so feckless it sent out a spokesman to claim that this is actually a loss for Putin because the narrative makes us the good guys and him the bad guy… that the “narrative” is what’s important as Putin occupies real territory with a real army and laughs at our generals who pat themselves on the back for their latest diversity and inclusion measures.

There’s a lot of stupid people in the above scenario. Putin isn’t one of them.

Ruthless? Yeah. Insane? Probably (though those saying he wants to rebuild the USSR are wrong; from what I’ve read it’s actually the old Russian Empire he’s out to rebuild which is a whole different brand of crazy). Stupid? No.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 05:50:46 PM
Ruthless? Yeah. Insane? Probably (though those saying he wants to rebuild the USSR are wrong; from what I’ve read it’s actually the old Russian Empire he’s out to rebuild which is a whole different brand of crazy). Stupid? No.

Here is the deal: My father is on the front end of buisness consulting in Russia (not tanksor bombs or whatever- air travel and medicide). These sanctions won't bother puttin, but will send back almost every industry he has (outside of basic resources) decades. Unless his energy control means sanctions get lifted, this is like a Mob Boss amputating his own arm to gain a irradiated crack den.

But from what I hear the Ukrainian president is hoping to get into diplomacy with Putin someplace sometime. I have no idea what happens next.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 05:53:44 PM
I can't comprehend anyone who thinks that "it's complicated" as opposed to the Russians being the bad guys.
As he said white hats. As in cowboy. This isn't black hat white hat. This is the good, the bad, and the ugly. As in all the actors here are degrees of grey. Russia is the blackest, but Ukraine was a ugly country way before they started meddling. And 'The good' have their own interests invested in it, and don't mind if it ends up a punching bag if they got to play keep-away with Putin.

In terms of charity Id say find things focused on helping refugees. Those are the people I think will really need the help and have reduced chances of being corrupt.

I don't disagree that there was ugly stuff in Ukraine prior to invasion. Still, in terms of the conflict itself, I think there is a clear right side and wrong side. Ukrainians defending their country from invasion are right. Russian troops invading are wrong. That doesn't mean that the Ukrainians are angels - just that they aren't wrong in the specific action of fighting back against being invaded.

United Help Ukraine is an established group that is currently rated well (85 / 100) in Charity Navigator, and is the highest rated among Ukraine-specific charities, and rates them on transparency of spending. I think it's important to give to someone with an established track record. Even if some other group professes to give only to refugees, I'd be suspicious of what they're actually doing. Here is the supposed focus of United Help Ukraine, from https://unitedhelpukraine.org/our-focus

Quote
Medical Supplies

United Help Ukraine raises money to provide medical supplies for those injured in the war in Ukraine. These medical supplies save the lives of soldiers and civilians.

Humanitarian Aid

United Help Ukraine has ongoing clothes drives for the families that lost their loved ones because of the war. We shipped hundreds of boxes of summer and winter clothes for adults and kids of all ages.

Wounded Warrior

United Help Ukraine organizes dedicated fundraisers and helps wounded Ukrainian warriors, as well as the families of wounded and killed in the war.

Raising Awareness

United Help Ukraine has held multiple rallies in Washington, DC in support of Ukraine’s freedom and independence. We also organized multiple protests in response to Russia’s unlawful action in and against Ukraine.

That sounds fine to me, but if something sticks out to you with your Ukrainian background, let me know.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 05:58:26 PM
Still, in terms of the conflict itself, I think there is a clear right side and wrong side. Ukrainians defending their country from invasion are right. Russian troops invading are wrong. That doesn't mean that the Ukrainians are angels - just that they aren't wrong in the specific action of fighting back against being invaded.

Agreed. Putin is absolutely in the wrong in invading Ukraine.

Quote
That sounds fine to me, but if something sticks out to you with your Ukrainian background, let me know.

Raising awareness is generally a money pit, but the rest are fine. But Im not a licenses charity checker.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 06:19:27 PM
That sounds fine to me, but if something sticks out to you with your Ukrainian background, let me know.

Raising awareness is generally a money pit, but the rest are fine. But Im not a licenses charity checker.

Yes, I understand. Here is their assessment in Charity Navigator:

https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/471837509

It's not perfect, but they seem transparent in where the money goes - and it's clearer than any other Ukraine-specific charity. So it's my pick based on my current information. Here's the donation link:

https://www.paypal.com/donate/?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=FAXD9R7CFB4SJ
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 06:40:35 PM
This is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
I have secondhand reports from people that live there, but your delusional so it doesn't matter.

I think your an utterly contemptible human being. Pack your bags and ship out to Ukraine right now. Fucking do it if its a cause worth fighting for.

It boils my blood that people are dying to be a spectactle for people like you.

Tubesock is a filthy commie scum, this is just another thing he knows/understands jack shit but likes to talk about. And since the Orange Man Bad (who is both Orange and Bad) was kinda sorta against the Ukranian regime then he must be in favor of because the Orange Man is Bad.

Funny things is I bet Trump being kinda crazy was keeping Putin, Pooh and the idiot from North Korea at bay.

Please find any pro-communist statements I have ever made. I'll wait. Who's the one talking out of their ass? Oh, that's right, it's you.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 06:44:15 PM


Edit: it breaks my heart to see the people of Ukraine under attack.

No, it doesn't.

You are just another troll on the Internet who laughs at the tragic events. You are beneath contempt. Your own avatar quote is, "I'M JUST HERE TO LAUGH AT YOU."

Fuck off already.

Yeah, but you are not Ukraine. YOU, I'm laughing at. Ukraine I'm legitimately heartbroken for. That you can't comprehend someone being more upset about actual human misery than internet forum bullshit says more about you than it does me.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 07:02:45 PM
Still, in terms of the conflict itself, I think there is a clear right side and wrong side. Ukrainians defending their country from invasion are right. Russian troops invading are wrong. That doesn't mean that the Ukrainians are angels - just that they aren't wrong in the specific action of fighting back against being invaded.

Agreed. Putin is absolutely in the wrong in invading Ukraine.

I am going to channel my inner SHARK:

"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 07:10:40 PM
I am going to channel my inner SHARK:

"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."

Sometimes hard times just generate loosers. Eastern Europe has been in hard times for a real long time.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 25, 2022, 09:04:39 PM
I am going to channel my inner SHARK:

"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."

Sometimes hard times just generate loosers. Eastern Europe has been in hard times for a real long time.
That whole region in Central and Eastern Europe has been a stomping ground for millennia. Being the funnel into Europe and caught between great powers is why nations like Poland and the Ukraine have had it so rough.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on February 25, 2022, 10:28:12 PM
Still, in terms of the conflict itself, I think there is a clear right side and wrong side. Ukrainians defending their country from invasion are right. Russian troops invading are wrong. That doesn't mean that the Ukrainians are angels - just that they aren't wrong in the specific action of fighting back against being invaded.

Agreed. Putin is absolutely in the wrong in invading Ukraine.

I am going to channel my inner SHARK:

"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."

Greetings!

*Laughing* I was just thinking about that quotation, too! It's one of my favourites!

Very true, my friend. Very true.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on February 25, 2022, 10:31:32 PM
I am going to channel my inner SHARK:

"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."

Sometimes hard times just generate loosers. Eastern Europe has been in hard times for a real long time.
That whole region in Central and Eastern Europe has been a stomping ground for millennia. Being the funnel into Europe and caught between great powers is why nations like Poland and the Ukraine have had it so rough.

Greetings!

Well said, Pat. "Funnel" indeed. It has always been a very rough place to be living. Armies marching in from the west; Armies matching in from the east; and then, of course, on occasion, armies matching in from the north or south.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on February 25, 2022, 10:39:45 PM
...
But it's all Trump's fault. Even though Putin made no moves during Trump's tenure. Despite Trump being a 'puppet'.

The left knows what is truly important.

First: Blame Trump.


... Unless his energy control means sanctions get lifted, ...

This.

The US is importing around 800,000 barrels per day from Russia. Germany gets around 50% of all its oil and gas from Russia.  The rest of the EU is on the hook for a good chunk as well.

If Putin can tidy up Ukraine quickly, and get his new puppet to the negotiating table, the sanctions absolutely will come down in time.

All he needs is to get his new puppet regime to hold "fair elections" that he will invite the U.N. in to monitor. Boom: "Democracy in action" = Sanctions Lifted.

We have a lady in our office that has been here for 5 years but most of her family is still in Ukraine.

Most Ukrainians just want to go back to work, and get on with their lives. They were under no illusions about the "democracy and freedom" of the US supported regime that Putin is trying to overthrow.

Largely, this is all just a really really painful way for them to exchange one foreign puppet regime for another.

It's all been a big colossal mess since the West thought it was a good idea to back the various color revolutions in the Ukraine in 2004 and 2014.

A tragic waste.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jam The MF on February 26, 2022, 12:33:14 AM
Putin called out other nations by name, and directly threatened them.

This isn't just about Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on February 26, 2022, 04:44:24 AM
Putin called out other nations by name, and directly threatened them.
...

Only if they intervened in the Ukraine.

And it worked:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDkgpCAT1SQ
“There will be no military confrontation between NATO and Russia,” – head of the German Bundestag Committee on Defense.

Russia is not Afghanistan or Iraq. They actually have a functional military, and the bomb.



None of the players involved are white hats. Remember that.
...

Exactly.

This is how stupid the not-presidents handlers are:

A 2019 report by the RAND corporation to the U.S. Army chief of staff entitled “Extending Russia.”
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html

Quote
This report examines a range of possible means to extend Russia. As the 2018 National Defense Strategy recognized, the United States is currently locked in a great-power competition with Russia. This report seeks to define areas where the United States can compete to its own advantage. Drawing on quantitative and qualitative data from Western and Russian sources, this report examines Russia's economic, political, and military vulnerabilities and anxieties. It then analyzes potential policy options to exploit them — ideologically, economically, geopolitically, and militarily (including air and space, maritime, land, and multidomain options). After describing each measure, this report assesses the associated benefits, costs, and risks, as well as the likelihood that measure could be successfully implemented and actually extend Russia. Most of the steps covered in this report are in some sense escalatory, and most would likely prompt some Russian counter-escalation. Some of these policies, however, also might prompt adverse reactions from other U.S. adversaries — most notably, China — that could, in turn, stress the United States.

Key Findings:

Russia's weaknesses lie in the economic domains:
Russia's greatest vulnerability, in any competition with the United States, is its economy, which is comparatively small and highly dependent on energy exports.
The Russian leadership's greatest anxiety stems from the stability and durability of the regime.

The most promising measures to stress Russia are in the realms of energy production and international pressure:
Continuing to expand U.S. energy production in all forms, including renewables, and encouraging other countries to do the same would maximize pressure on Russia's export receipts and thus on its national and defense budgets. Alone among the many measures looked at in this report, this one comes with the least cost or risk.
Sanctions can also limit Russia's economic potential. To be effective, however, these need to be multilateral, involving (at a minimum) the European Union, which is Russia's largest customer and greatest source of technology and capital, larger in all these respects than the United States.

Geopolitical measures to bait Russia into overextending itself are likely impractical, or they risk second-order consequences:
Many geopolitical measures would force the United States to operate in areas that are closer to Russia and where it is thus cheaper and easier for Russia than the United States to exert influence.

Ideological measures to undermine the regime's stability carry significant risks of counter escalation:
Many military options — including force posture changes and development of new capabilities — could enhance U.S. deterrence and reassure U.S. allies, but only a few are likely to extend Russia, as Moscow is not seeking parity with the United States in most domains.


Obviously the US would never interfere in a sovereign nations internal affairs. Right?

Right?

Victoria Nuland at the State Department in 2014: (Currently serving as Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs.)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-u-s-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUSBREA1601G20140207

The mess that Nuland made:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/13/the-mess-that-nuland-made/

And Salon.com for the win:
https://www.salon.com/2021/01/19/who-is-victoria-nuland-a-really-bad-idea-as-a-key-player-in-bidens-foreign-policy-team/
Quote
"Who is Victoria Nuland? Most Americans have never heard of her, because the U.S. corporate media's foreign policy coverage is a wasteland. Most Americans have no idea that President-elect Biden's pick for deputy secretary of state for political affairs is stuck in the quicksand of 1950s U.S.-Russia Cold War politics and dreams of continued NATO expansion, an arms race on steroids and further encirclement of Russia. ..."

..."When Ukrainian President Yanukovych spurned a U.S.-backed trade agreement with the European Union in favor of a $15 billion bailout from Russia, the State Department threw a tantrum.

Hell hath no fury like a superpower scorned.

The EU trade agreement was to open Ukraine's economy to European imports, but without a reciprocal opening of EU markets to Ukraine, it was a lopsided deal Yanukovich could not accept. The deal was approved by the post-coup government, and has only added to Ukraine's economic woes.

The muscle for Nuland's $5 billion coup was Oleh Tyahnybok's neo-Nazi Svoboda Party and the shadowy new Right Sector militia. During her leaked phone call, Nuland referred to Tyahnybok as one of the "big three" opposition leaders on the outside who could help the U.S.-backed Prime Minister Yatsenyuk on the inside. This is the same Tyanhnybok who once delivered a speech applauding Ukrainians for fighting Jews and "other scum" during World War II. "

Honestly, I'm surprised Far-Left Salon hasn't gotten their marching order to deep six the article...

This was all common knowledge right up to the point the not-presidents handlers got their bluff called.

But we live in clown-world where the only truth is the latest narrative that the MSM is currently spouting.


None of the players involved are white hats. Remember that.

And millions of innocent Ukrainian's are paying the price.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on February 26, 2022, 07:47:40 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* Ahh, Jaeger! You are reading my mind!

Indeed, from the various sources I have seen--including reports and analysis that you provided above--such provides to me much of my skepticism, suspicions, and disgust with any kind of US involvement concerning Ukraine, and dealing with Russia. I am familiar with the fucking US ambassador that was involved *deep* in coordinating, funding, and sponsoring the "Colour Revolution" in Ukraine which unlawfully deposed the pro-Russian President. And all so that NATO could stroke their cock in Russia's face--while also conveniently enriching various EU nations while also simultaneously shafting Ukraine. As you mentioned, the previous pro-Russian President of Ukraine didn't like the idea of Ukraine getting fucked by the EU, and told them to go fuck themselves, and he would be happy to deal with Russia.

*THAT* got him overthrown by the US-sponsored "Colour Revolution". Nice of the US to do the dirty work of helping EU bureaucrats get rich, huh? Nice of America to whisper and giggle behind closed doors while ensuring that Ukraine gets properly fucked and is subsequently led down the pathway of being a little EU slut. All the while sitting back and looking forward to rubbing the shit in President Vladimir Putin's face.

AND, in the bargain, setting Ukraine up as a junior member of NATO, so that NATO could establish bases and move troops into Ukraine, and threaten Russia.

And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right? According to the EU and Biden, apparently that is the deal. Discussing Ukraine being restricted from joining NATO is not on the table is what Biden told Putin. Heh. Well, I guess Putin has a different answer that the EU and the US don't fucking like. It's fucking sad and tragic that Ukraine is caught up in the corrupt power and greed games of the EU and the US. Ukraine will sadly be thrown to the wood-chipper, all because America and the EU wouldn't be strong, and forthright, and deal with Ukraine and Russia both in a serious, respectful, and sincere manner.

But the US, and NATO, and the fucking EU, are all nice and sweet Democracy-loving and peaceful nations.

*Yeah, right.*

THEN, also as you noted, I have long been disturbed and concerned about actual, real, NAZI influence in Ukraine. I've seen videos and such where this isn't a few guys with political opinions just to the right of Mao, or who oppose the Alphabet Mafia, and are labeled as NAZI's by the deranged fucktard Left--there are entire *REGIMENTS* of heavily-armed NAZI's in the Ukrainian military, featuring swastika armbands, Nazi tattoos, waving Nazi banners and the whole bit. RIGHT SECTOR is fucking right, my friend! I've seen videos and interviews with these guys. Geesus. And the Ukrainian government embraces them and supports them.

And Lefty Liberal fucktards always screeching about how everyone that opposes them are Nazi's, and that Putin is a monster--how convenient they are oblivious to actual Nazis in positions of influence in Ukraine.

Vladimir Putin has also discussed his absolute conviction that there will be "No Colour Rvolutions coming to Russia"--and he is of course well-aware of the US involvement in destabilizing Ukraine and installing a pro-EU and anti-Russian puppet in Ukraine. Putin is also aware of the Nazis in Ukraine--heavily armed military regiments--and has declared that Russia will *De-Nazify* Ukraine.

But Putin is a monster, and the US and the fucking EU and NATO are the fucking "Good Guys" wearing the white hats.

*R-I-G-H-T* ;D

This whole situation is a bunch of fucking bullshit because the EU and the US didn't have any fucking integrity or honour in conducting themselves and dealing with Ukraine--and Russia--in an honest and sincere manner to begin with. From the beginning several years ago, and more, the situation has been a bunch of grab-ass corruption and ego-stroking peacocking, whether in the pubic eye, or behind closed doors.

Excellent commentary, Jaeger!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 26, 2022, 08:46:02 AM
I gotta say im proud of Ukraine for holding out for so long.

The military exceeded my low expectations by not turning traitor when putin gave them a chance.

I guess under shelling this activated a fight or flight instinct.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Wntrlnd on February 26, 2022, 09:16:07 AM
Putin called out other nations by name, and directly threatened them.
...

Only if they intervened in the Ukraine.

And it worked: link to RT

No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.
 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10553723/Putin-turns-attention-Finland-Sweden-Kremlin-official-warns-nations.html

Please use other news outlets than those supplied by the russian government. They are not to be trusted.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Neoplatonist1 on February 26, 2022, 10:00:38 AM
Putin called out other nations by name, and directly threatened them.
...

Only if they intervened in the Ukraine.

And it worked: link to RT

No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.
 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10553723/Putin-turns-attention-Finland-Sweden-Kremlin-official-warns-nations.html

Please use other news outlets than those supplied by the russian government. They are not to be trusted.

How do you know who to trust?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 26, 2022, 10:55:17 AM
Putin called out other nations by name, and directly threatened them.
...

Only if they intervened in the Ukraine.

And it worked: link to RT

No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.
 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10553723/Putin-turns-attention-Finland-Sweden-Kremlin-official-warns-nations.html

Please use other news outlets than those supplied by the russian government. They are not to be trusted.
Which is absolutely retarded. I dunno about the Swedes, but the Finns still hate the Russians. They might join NATO just out of spite.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 26, 2022, 10:56:15 AM
THEN, also as you noted, I have long been disturbed and concerned about actual, real, NAZI influence in Ukraine. I've seen videos and such where this isn't a few guys with political opinions just to the right of Mao, or who oppose the Alphabet Mafia, and are labeled as NAZI's by the deranged fucktard Left--there are entire *REGIMENTS* of heavily-armed NAZI's in the Ukrainian military, featuring swastika armbands, Nazi tattoos, waving Nazi banners and the whole bit. RIGHT SECTOR is fucking right, my friend! I've seen videos and interviews with these guys. Geesus. And the Ukrainian government embraces them and supports them.

And Lefty Liberal fucktards always screeching about how everyone that opposes them are Nazi's, and that Putin is a monster--how convenient they are oblivious to actual Nazis in positions of influence in Ukraine.
The president of the Ukraine denies that. And he's Jewish.

I don't know enough about the topic to have any idea which is true.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 26, 2022, 11:12:37 AM
The president of the Ukraine denies that. And he's Jewish.

I don't know enough about the topic to have any idea which is true.

It is not. And Im Jewish as well.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 26, 2022, 11:14:27 AM
THEN, also as you noted, I have long been disturbed and concerned about actual, real, NAZI influence in Ukraine. I've seen videos and such where this isn't a few guys with political opinions just to the right of Mao, or who oppose the Alphabet Mafia, and are labeled as NAZI's by the deranged fucktard Left--there are entire *REGIMENTS* of heavily-armed NAZI's in the Ukrainian military, featuring swastika armbands, Nazi tattoos, waving Nazi banners and the whole bit. RIGHT SECTOR is fucking right, my friend! I've seen videos and interviews with these guys. Geesus. And the Ukrainian government embraces them and supports them.

And Lefty Liberal fucktards always screeching about how everyone that opposes them are Nazi's, and that Putin is a monster--how convenient they are oblivious to actual Nazis in positions of influence in Ukraine.

Shark, you'll notice I've been pretty quiet on Ukraine here. But this part, I gotta jump in. This part is Russian propaganda. You're repeating stuff directly planted by RT. That Nazi influence stuff is bullshit from FSB. They're taking two strategies on this one: 1) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as drug addicts, and 2) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as Nazis.

It's not that there isn't a neo-nazi nationalist segment of Ukraine. There is. There's one in most nations. But they're tiny, and have no power in Ukraine. In the 2019 election, the Ukrainian far right nationalists (which are not all neo-nazis themselves, but that's the group they allied with) were humiliated, receiving only 2% of the vote. That's less than they got in most EU nations, like France and Germany.

And as Pat mentioned, the President is Jewish, and he comes from a family like mine where most of his family was wiped out by the holocaust.

The actual Nazis do not have meaningful influence in Ukraine. But, Putin wants you to think they do. And he wants you to think drug addicts run Ukraine. Those are the two strategies their propaganda is taking, and people shouldn't fall for Russian propaganda. There is plenty of real stuff to talk about.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 26, 2022, 11:22:56 AM
Shark, you'll notice I've been pretty quiet on Ukraine here. But this part, I gotta jump in. This part is Russian propaganda.

Ukraine isn't run by a cabal of secret nazis so that makes shelling civilians 'OK' with rockets aimed at civilian sections.

But after the Crimea anexation there was a sizable movement of neo-nazis that became popular in the country out of spite for russia (because the germans ruled Ukraine for a bit, and so at that moment anything anti-russia was in). I mean they had parades down main street. And its been a while since the last confirmed one, but TONS of Drug addicts have run Ukraine at one point or another. When I lived there we made plenty of jokes about the mayor being a major coke fiend. We where without a mayor for a while and it didn't make any difference. I don't know what the status was in terms of influence the last 2 years or so.

But as I said, killing the civilians and bombing cities isn't really gonna fix the underlying social issues so moreso then being mugged by a schitzophreniac is likely to fix a phobia of spiders. If neo nazi coke-fiends where shouting 'Go Putin', they would be the first to be put in power by him.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 26, 2022, 12:44:26 PM
Hard to know what's propaganda and what's real, but if this is genuine, it goes a long way toward explaining why Russia isn't doing as well as projected.

Lots of videos today, purporting to show captured Russian soldiers. Most of these are claiming that they didn't know they were fighting, or were told they would be "training". Others claiming they were told that Ukraine would offer little resistance. Some seem scared, confused. Multiple reports of Russians getting lost, or attempting to hide themselves in Ukraine.

I don't yet know what to believe wrt these videos. Ukraine has set up a hotline for Russian parents to check on their kids.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on February 26, 2022, 01:31:14 PM
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right?

Regardless of internal politics, Ukraine is not a legitimate security concern for Russia that justifies invasion. Ukraine is not building up its military and/or threatening to attack Russia. Russia is attacking purely to conquer, not out of self-defense.

The people of Ukraine have done nothing to justify this assault.

Invading another country just because they don't like you isn't a "legitimate security concern" - it is unprovoked aggression.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 04:16:00 PM
  You know what I do not hear about?   The White house and congress clamoring to allow in hundreds of thousands of refugees from Ukraine.  That seems odd, normally with such a clearly painted bad guy like Putin, they would be all over themselves to bring in refugees.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 26, 2022, 04:22:51 PM
Maybe because neighboring countries seem willing to do it? Hard to say.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 04:30:17 PM
  Strange though, since neighbors were willing in many other crisis in the past.  Maybe too close to midterms to push taking in refugees?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 04:36:47 PM
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right?

Regardless of internal politics, Ukraine is not a legitimate security concern for Russia that justifies invasion. Ukraine is not building up its military and/or threatening to attack Russia. Russia is attacking purely to conquer, not out of self-defense.

The people of Ukraine have done nothing to justify this assault.

Invading another country just because they don't like you isn't a "legitimate security concern" - it is unprovoked aggression.

  Well....since you are saying this from the USA, the rest of the world takes it with a grain of salt.  Given the USA's past, especially the past 50ish years, this is a case of a giant pot calling a kettle black. 
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 26, 2022, 04:44:54 PM
Imagine simping for authoritarianism so hard that you can't help but "AKCHYUALLY..." at a free country fighting back against invasion by a criminal dictator lmao
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 26, 2022, 05:15:03 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?

For shame!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: yancy on February 26, 2022, 05:21:13 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?

He can fuck right off, the Ukrainians got gypped.

I'm more worried about how this will affect the prices of crappy steel-jacketed 'liberal-plinking' ammo.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 26, 2022, 05:32:20 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?

For shame!
Big guy's gotta get his ten percent, y'know.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 26, 2022, 05:47:22 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?

For shame!
Don't worry, I'm sure his daddy is setting him up with a defense contractor right now.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on February 26, 2022, 05:59:35 PM
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right?

Regardless of internal politics, Ukraine is not a legitimate security concern for Russia that justifies invasion. Ukraine is not building up its military and/or threatening to attack Russia. Russia is attacking purely to conquer, not out of self-defense.

  Well....since you are saying this from the USA, the rest of the world takes it with a grain of salt.  Given the USA's past, especially the past 50ish years, this is a case of a giant pot calling a kettle black.

OK, but in this analogy, the pot and the kettle are in fact both black - i.e. both the USA and Russia have engaged in unjustified wars.

Still, that means that Putin's invasion is wrong - which I would think is your position based on your earlier stance. There are not legitimate security concerns that mean the Ukrainians deserve to be invaded. That's the fundamental question here.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 26, 2022, 06:14:20 PM
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right?

Regardless of internal politics, Ukraine is not a legitimate security concern for Russia that justifies invasion. Ukraine is not building up its military and/or threatening to attack Russia. Russia is attacking purely to conquer, not out of self-defense.

  Well....since you are saying this from the USA, the rest of the world takes it with a grain of salt.  Given the USA's past, especially the past 50ish years, this is a case of a giant pot calling a kettle black.

OK, but in this analogy, the pot and the kettle are in fact both black - i.e. both the USA and Russia have engaged in unjustified wars.

Still, that means that Putin's invasion is wrong - which I would think is your position based on your earlier stance. There are not legitimate security concerns that mean the Ukrainians deserve to be invaded. That's the fundamental question here.
I notice you use "Ukrainians" (the people) when you're talking about what you consider an unjust war, thereby suggesting that the Ukrainians (the people) deserve to be invaded when you consider it a just war.

Except that's never the case. The people, as a whole, never "deserve" war. It's the leadership who push wars, not the people. And even if propaganda results in broad support among the people, it's not universal.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on February 26, 2022, 06:14:36 PM
No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.

And?

He is not having Nato on his border.

Not. Having. It.

This is not hard to understand.

Is Putin being a raging asshole about it all now?

Yes.

He is Not a good Dude...


Please use other news outlets than those supplied by the russian government. They are not to be trusted.

BBC, Reuters, Consortium, and Salon: All well known for their Left-leaning biases, and front and center pushing Trump - Russian collusion stories, are now all authoritarian Russian propaganda outfits?

Well, thanks for clearing that up...


...
  Well....since you are saying this from the USA, the rest of the world takes it with a grain of salt.  Given the USA's past, especially the past 50ish years, this is a case of a giant pot calling a kettle black. 

"WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ!"

How many innocent Iraqi civilians died for that big nothing burger?


There are no white hats here.

Innocent Ukrainian civilians are the ones left holding the bag because of a geopolitical mess made by foreign nations.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 26, 2022, 06:31:21 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?

For shame!
Big guy's gotta get his ten percent, y'know.

Look I have an idea and stay with me on this ok.

What if we all put a Ukranian flag in our bio and I personally commit to buying 50% less Russian vodka then I usually do until Putin guarantees that Biden gets his stack of cash.  Either Biden I dont mind.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: yancy on February 26, 2022, 06:48:43 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?

For shame!
Big guy's gotta get his ten percent, y'know.

Look I have an idea and stay with me on this ok.

What if we all put a Ukranian flag in our bio and I personally commit to buying 50% less Russian vodka then I usually do until Putin guarantees that Biden gets his stack of cash.  Either Biden I dont mind.

I think the idea shows promise, though I'm still not sure how it's gonna get me my shipment of steel-cased ammo. On the other hand, the Ukrainian flag might antagonize Putin into escalating the level of force, so I propose sticking to flags of other formerly Communist allied shithole countries.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 07:10:49 PM
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right?

Regardless of internal politics, Ukraine is not a legitimate security concern for Russia that justifies invasion. Ukraine is not building up its military and/or threatening to attack Russia. Russia is attacking purely to conquer, not out of self-defense.

  Well....since you are saying this from the USA, the rest of the world takes it with a grain of salt.  Given the USA's past, especially the past 50ish years, this is a case of a giant pot calling a kettle black.

OK, but in this analogy, the pot and the kettle are in fact both black - i.e. both the USA and Russia have engaged in unjustified wars.

Still, that means that Putin's invasion is wrong - which I would think is your position based on your earlier stance. There are not legitimate security concerns that mean the Ukrainians deserve to be invaded. That's the fundamental question here.

   There is no question, of course Putin is in the wrong.  So what?  Sanctions are did not deter him, and are unlikely to do so.  That leaves what exactly?  Strongly worded letters and emails? 
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Wntrlnd on February 26, 2022, 07:24:55 PM
No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.

And?

He is not having Nato on his border.

Not. Having. It.

This is not hard to understand.

Is Putin being a raging asshole about it all now?

Yes.

He is Not a good Dude...

He already has. The countries are called Estonia and Lithuania.



Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 07:29:02 PM
No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.

And?

He is not having Nato on his border.

Not. Having. It.

This is not hard to understand.

Is Putin being a raging asshole about it all now?

Yes.

He is Not a good Dude...

He already has. The countries are called Estonia and Lithuania.

  That was all he could stands, and he cant stands no more!!!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: yancy on February 26, 2022, 07:33:18 PM
That was all he could stands, and he cant stands no more!!!

That, and having leftists say mean things about him on cable news and the internet for 4 years, and he finally snapped :(
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Wntrlnd on February 26, 2022, 07:42:32 PM
fuck it. it aint worth it..
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 07:52:11 PM
Imagine simping for authoritarianism so hard that you can't help but "AKCHYUALLY..." at a free country fighting back against invasion by a criminal dictator lmao

  Imagine being such a cunt you talk shit to a guy with family in harm's way in Ukraine talking about him being a traitor to his country because he has an opinion and point of view you do not like.   All while being very heartbroken of course.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on February 26, 2022, 08:16:52 PM
...
  That was all he could stands, and he cant stands no more!!!

Not far off...

They (Estonia and Lithuania) are largely non-entities within Nato, with only 1.3 and 2.7 million people for their respective total populations, and even then Russia was none to pleased with their membership.

Ukraine has 44 million people however, and can field an actual army.

From the Russian perspective, Ukraine is a different matter entirely.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jeff37923 on February 26, 2022, 09:04:08 PM
Imagine simping for authoritarianism so hard that you can't help but "AKCHYUALLY..." at a free country fighting back against invasion by a criminal dictator lmao

  Imagine being such a cunt you talk shit to a guy with family in harm's way in Ukraine talking about him being a traitor to his country because he has an opinion and point of view you do not like.   All while being very heartbroken of course.

Just put him on your Ignore List. It helps bolster your faith in humanity by not reading his trolling.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on February 27, 2022, 02:15:10 AM
Greetings!

I've heard several reports about the war so far--and Ukrainian troops are fighting heroically, and putting up hard resistance against Russian armies.

Oh, and the Neo-Nazi "Azov Battalion" has been caught in a cauldron by Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine. Russian FSB propaganda my ass. The reality of Nazi troops serving as part of Ukrainian military forces has been confirmed by *multiple sources*.

I'm not saying Ukraine is controlled by Nazis, or that all of Ukraine are Nazis. There are however, Nazi elements there that have been supported by the Ukrainian government. As Jaeger discussed, that has been verified by multiple witnesses, journalists, and sources--many of which are distinctly Leftist and Liberal. Certainly not "Russian Propaganda". Believe what you want though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on February 27, 2022, 07:55:57 AM
So, the New York Times had a story that the Biden administration told China that the Ukraine getting into NATO was a done deal and there would be nukes on Russia’s border soon… knowing that China would tell Russia this (even though it wasn’t true).

Because Biden needs a war to distract from and explain away the runaway inflation and other messes he’s been mired in. Have you heard one word about Covid, the bare shelves, rising prices, the southern border, the tyranny to the north or the US trucker convoy that’s currently reached 15 miles in length? Of course not, because now the media can talk about Russia, Russia, Russia all day long.

Then the Biden Administration goes the extra mile and tries to tell President Zelinisky he shouldn’t engage in peace talks Russia… only the US can talk to Russia. Can’t have a ceasefire or peace break out too soon now… they need it for the mid-terms.

This doesn’t make Putin a good guy, but it does mean our leadership is willing to throw the innocent people of Ukraine into a war just to try and hold onto political power at home and, in my opinion, makes them even worse.

In an ideal world, the Ukrainian people would stop the Russian invasion itself and then tell the US government to fuck itself by making every last dirty deal and money laundering scheme it’s run through the Ukraine public.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 08:30:15 AM
So, the New York Times had a story that the Biden administration told China that the Ukraine getting into NATO was a done deal and there would be nukes on Russia’s border soon… knowing that China would tell Russia this (even though it wasn’t true).

Because Biden needs a war to distract from and explain away the runaway inflation and other messes he’s been mired in. Have you heard one word about Covid, the bare shelves, rising prices, the southern border, the tyranny to the north or the US trucker convoy that’s currently reached 15 miles in length? Of course not, because now the media can talk about Russia, Russia, Russia all day long.

Then the Biden Administration goes the extra mile and tries to tell President Zelinisky he shouldn’t engage in peace talks Russia… only the US can talk to Russia. Can’t have a ceasefire or peace break out too soon now… they need it for the mid-terms.

This doesn’t make Putin a good guy, but it does mean our leadership is willing to throw the innocent people of Ukraine into a war just to try and hold onto political power at home and, in my opinion, makes them even worse.

In an ideal world, the Ukrainian people would stop the Russian invasion itself and then tell the US government to fuck itself by making every last dirty deal and money laundering scheme it’s run through the Ukraine public.

Do you have a link to this NY Times story, I can't find it anywhere.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM
Zelensky's showing way more balls than I ever anticipated from an ex-comedian. People surprise you.

I understand Putin's desire to avoid Ukraine joining NATO. Lithuania and Estonia are in NATO and are on his border. Remember how we reacted with Soviet missiles in Cuba (after we put them in Turkey)?

Ukraine's government was famously corrupt and questionably democratic.

However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 10:59:14 AM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.

That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 11:27:15 AM
Goddamn seeing retrograde governments get BTFO'd gives me a boner a cat couldn't scratch. a FREEDOM BONER.

Belarus' dictator says "his country" is jumping in. Immediate protests and challenges to his authority ensue, with at least one Belarusian military official publicly encouraging soldiers to disobey "illegal orders". Another woman has now proclaimed herself "leader of Belarus".

Russia has requested negotiations with no preconditions. Delegations to meet on border.

Russian soldiers deserting and surrendering all over the place.

Russian tank column destroyed, killing top Chechen military leader.

Russians, expecting a quick, easy victory, failed to establish decent logistics. They are getting lost, and running out of food, fuel and supplies.

Anonymous is still butt-fucking Russia's government websites, and has hijacked Russian state TV to play the Ukranian anthem and news from across the border nonstop.

This is an inspiration to everyone who values freedom.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 11:39:02 AM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.
Yup

Whatever your politics, sir, thank God for that.

My prayers for the rest of your family.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 11:44:01 AM
Greetings!

I've heard several reports about the war so far--and Ukrainian troops are fighting heroically, and putting up hard resistance against Russian armies.

Oh, and the Neo-Nazi "Azov Battalion" has been caught in a cauldron by Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine. Russian FSB propaganda my ass. The reality of Nazi troops serving as part of Ukrainian military forces has been confirmed by *multiple sources*.

I'm not saying Ukraine is controlled by Nazis, or that all of Ukraine are Nazis. There are however, Nazi elements there that have been supported by the Ukrainian government. As Jaeger discussed, that has been verified by multiple witnesses, journalists, and sources--many of which are distinctly Leftist and Liberal. Certainly not "Russian Propaganda". Believe what you want though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Did you just argue Russian propaganda isn't Leftist and Liberal?

Oh it's been "verified" has it? The fuck it has. The "verification" is, again, mostly from Russian propaganda. Again, while there are neo-nazi elements in Ukraine, there are fewer of them there than most European nations. It's just Russian propaganda to make them seem like they are much bigger and more prominent in Ukraine, because Nazi is the biggest insult in Russia. And here you and Jaeger are, being convenient little fucking puppets of Putin dancing to his tune and looking for any excuse to push his propaganda.

Shark, you like to call anyone who disagrees with you marxists and communists. This is I think the first instance we're I've seen you dance for actual communists. For no reason too. You're not making a powerful point by promoting this communist propaganda. You have not personally researched this aspect of the topic heavily or have first hand experience about it. You're just parroting what you've seen without trying to verify it yourself, and I don't know why this is a hill you'd die on given it really is coming from actual communists and not people you'd ordinarily trust.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 11:47:22 AM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.

That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup

Thank God your mom got out. I have been thinking about her and your family the past several days since you mentioned she was planning to get out by train on Saturday. Looking at the images of those trains being packed and rushed I was worried. I hope the rest of your family gets out soon too, if that is their goal. I hope they're safer where they are than in the city itself.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: HappyDaze on February 27, 2022, 12:09:05 PM
Shark, you like to call anyone who disagrees with you marxists and communists. This is I think the first instance we're I've seen you dance for actual communists. For no reason too. You're not making a powerful point by promoting this communist propaganda. You have not personally researched this aspect of the topic heavily or have first hand experience about it. You're just parroting what you've seen without trying to verify it yourself, and I don't know why this is a hill you'd die on given it really is coming from actual communists and not people you'd ordinarily trust.
SHARK commonly fixates on the supposed oral sex activities of these same people...and right now, it sounds like he has something stuck in his own throat.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 12:19:03 PM
Shark, you like to call anyone who disagrees with you marxists and communists. This is I think the first instance we're I've seen you dance for actual communists. For no reason too. You're not making a powerful point by promoting this communist propaganda. You have not personally researched this aspect of the topic heavily or have first hand experience about it. You're just parroting what you've seen without trying to verify it yourself, and I don't know why this is a hill you'd die on given it really is coming from actual communists and not people you'd ordinarily trust.
SHARK commonly fixates on the supposed oral sex activities of these same people...and right now, it sounds like he has something stuck in his own throat.

Dude, not helping. Shark's a true blue RPG nerd like you and me. We can disagree about important topics without that.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 12:29:43 PM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.

That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup

That's great news, I wish for only the best outcome for Ukraine and its people.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 12:40:21 PM
I don’t understand Putins military plan. Doesn’t he have more artillery options? He could just render a city into ash as a form of demoralization in the first day or such.


Why is he taking this long?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on February 27, 2022, 12:52:54 PM
I don’t understand Putins military plan. Doesn’t he have more artillery options? He could just render a city into ash as a form of demoralization in the first day or such.


Why is he taking this long?

It looks like the Russians do not want to leave Ukraine a smoldering ruin. The cellphones are still working, electricity, gas and water are still flowing to homes and businesses. The gas pipelines are still flowing to Europe. I think the Russians are trying to avoid collateral damage by mopping up the opposition slowly, taking their time, being cautious, etc.

I listened to this guy, Gonazalo Lira, who lives in Ukraine confirm this stuff. He lives in Kharkiv, a Russian majority city, with his family, but got stuck in Kiev when the attack began. From his hotel window all he can confirm is that very little is happening in Kiev... occasional small arms fire in the distance, but nothing crazy. His family reports from Kharkiv that opposition is light, most of the city has been taken, and the Russians are just being very leisurely in mopping up the rather limited opposition.

I suspect when they come to the Azov Battalion(s) the gloves will come off.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 12:56:59 PM
I suspect when they come to the Azov Battalion(s) the gloves will come off.
Sounds about right. Russia hasn’t been afraid of glassing places before.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 01:10:56 PM
Governor of Kharkiv is reporting that Russians have been expelled from the city.

As of 1 hour ago, all major Ukrainian cities are reported to still be under Ukrainian control.

EU has banned Sputnik and RT.

YouTube has demonetized all Russian propaganda channels.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on February 27, 2022, 01:13:46 PM
I suspect when they come to the Azov Battalion(s) the gloves will come off.
Sounds about right. Russia hasn’t been afraid of glassing places before.

Whether we or the Ukrainians appreciate it, Russians view Ukraine as part of Russia. As such I don't think they want to glass the place over. The real question is: What are their ultimate goals??? Do they want to 'liberate' the Russian ethnic majority areas, or do they want to bring 100% of Ukraine 'back' into Russian control? I have no earthly idea.

I suspect that if they limit their goals to 'liberating' Russian ethnic areas and crippling the Ukrainian military they will be successful. If they intend to return all of Ukraine to Russia... well if you hate the Russians and want to see them fail that might be exactly what you would want to see them try. But what do I know. The only news we are getting on this is propaganda from one side or the other.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 01:37:32 PM
I suspect when they come to the Azov Battalion(s) the gloves will come off.
Sounds about right. Russia hasn’t been afraid of glassing places before.

Whether we or the Ukrainians appreciate it, Russians view Ukraine as part of Russia. As such I don't think they want to glass the place over. The real question is: What are their ultimate goals??? Do they want to 'liberate' the Russian ethnic majority areas, or do they want to bring 100% of Ukraine 'back' into Russian control? I have no earthly idea.

I suspect that if they limit their goals to 'liberating' Russian ethnic areas and crippling the Ukrainian military they will be successful. If they intend to return all of Ukraine to Russia... well if you hate the Russians and want to see them fail that might be exactly what you would want to see them try. But what do I know. The only news we are getting on this is propaganda from one side or the other.

I think their plan was to waltz in, grab the Ukrainian government, try them for some trumped up bullshit, and put in their own puppet Government with similar control like they have over Belarus. I don't think that plan can work any longer though - any puppet Government they put in place would be deposed the moment they left. Which is why I think Putin is looking to talk again. I don't think he anticipated this level of push back and now he needs to find a way out while saving face.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 01:56:32 PM
Take everything I say with a grain of salt, but the sanctions are really hurting the upper middle class. They don’t care about Ukraine, they wanted to go on vacation to italy.

And many tech sector businesses are panicking what to do. Even the KGB head had minor murmurs about them not being ready fir a steamroller war.

But this could be wishful thinking that I got through my dad.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 01:58:08 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 02:00:07 PM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.

That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup

That’s good news! Now fingers crossed for getting the rest of your family safe.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 02:01:55 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.

Quick someone hack more Russian websites!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 02:02:40 PM
Canada and the EU have closed their airspace to ALL Russian aircraft. In a first, the EU is going to finance weapons and equipment delivery to Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 02:07:59 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.

Quick someone hack more Russian websites!

I'll go ya one better: a Ukrainian sailor in Mallorca attempted to sink his wealthy Russian boss' yacht. His boss is an executive at Rostec, a Russiam state-owned military equipment manufacturer.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 27, 2022, 03:22:25 PM
Zelensky's showing way more balls than I ever anticipated from an ex-comedian. People surprise you.

I understand Putin's desire to avoid Ukraine joining NATO. Lithuania and Estonia are in NATO and are on his border. Remember how we reacted with Soviet missiles in Cuba (after we put them in Turkey)?

Ukraine's government was famously corrupt and questionably democratic.

However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
If Ukraine didn't want to be invaded, it shouldn't have exposed that sexy coastline.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 27, 2022, 03:44:03 PM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.

That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup

  Fantastic.  I am glad to hear this.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 04:03:59 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.

Quick someone hack more Russian websites!

I'll go ya one better: a Ukrainian sailor in Mallorca attempted to sink his wealthy Russian boss' yacht. His boss is an executive at Rostec, a Russiam state-owned military equipment manufacturer.

Thank goodness that brave Ukrainian sailor managed to attempt to sink a Russian yacht.

Surely Kiev is saved now!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on February 27, 2022, 04:17:17 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.

Quick someone hack more Russian websites!

I'll go ya one better: a Ukrainian sailor in Mallorca attempted to sink his wealthy Russian boss' yacht. His boss is an executive at Rostec, a Russiam state-owned military equipment manufacturer.

Thank goodness that brave Ukrainian sailor managed to attempt to sink a Russian yacht.

Surely Kiev is saved now!

Hahaha! and totally not misinformation or propaganda!

Truth is the first casualty of war.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 04:29:26 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.

Quick someone hack more Russian websites!

I'll go ya one better: a Ukrainian sailor in Mallorca attempted to sink his wealthy Russian boss' yacht. His boss is an executive at Rostec, a Russiam state-owned military equipment manufacturer.

Thank goodness that brave Ukrainian sailor managed to attempt to sink a Russian yacht.

Surely Kiev is saved now!

Hahaha! and totally not misinformation or propaganda!

Truth is the first casualty of war.

I am still gutted about the Snake Island story.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on February 27, 2022, 04:57:20 PM
... And here you and Jaeger are, being convenient little fucking puppets of Putin dancing to his tune and looking for any excuse to push his propaganda.
...

You are very selective in your quotes. Typical behavior.

Push his propaganda? So calling Putin a Bad Dude is supporting his interests how?

Being a disingenuous Liar yet again.


Null 42 is correct:

However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.

But there are no white hats here.

Putin is a Bad Dude. But the West ain't lily white here either.

All those articles from liberal news outlets that I linked to casting American foreign policy in a bad light were all A-OK until Putin attacked.

And now, like magic, the internet is filled with: "All that shit that everyone reported on before - well um, uh, it's all Russian propaganda now!"

As if the West doesn't know how to do propaganda either?

(https://social.infogalactic.com/images/posts/c09c06e2-d493-4559-91a1-256bb704b5af/original-c423cf264bac4ba789fc7f5cec2030cb.jpeg?v=63813185481)

Everyone is pushing their propaganda 24/7 right now. Everyone.

Were all those stories I linked to from Years ago really all Russian propaganda? Or was it just good reporting that is inconvenient reading now that the West left Ukraine holding the bag?

You should tell the BBC to make up its mind.

On the one hand they report on the US interfering in a sovereign nations internal affairs:

Victoria Nuland at the State Department in 2014: (Currently serving as Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs.)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

And three years later they are highlighting how Russia pushes its narrative in the Ukraine:

Pro-Russia propaganda machine in Ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41915295

The BBC didn't seem to like either side...


The only real truth here is this:

The Ukrainian people have gotten screwed.

It's all a big mess.

And Nobody knows the full story because everyone involved in this shit since the fall of the USSR is shady as fuck.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on February 27, 2022, 06:47:11 PM
Zelensky's showing way more balls than I ever anticipated from an ex-comedian. People surprise you.

I understand Putin's desire to avoid Ukraine joining NATO. Lithuania and Estonia are in NATO and are on his border. Remember how we reacted with Soviet missiles in Cuba (after we put them in Turkey)?

Ukraine's government was famously corrupt and questionably democratic.

However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.

Greetings!

Indeed, Null, Zelensky is an inspiring badass! I saw an interview with him where he said, no, he isn't leaving Ukraine, he isn't going anywhere. He said he is here, in the streets, with his people and his soldiers, ready to fight the invaders to the last.

Fucking awesome!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on February 27, 2022, 06:49:19 PM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.

That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup

Greetings!

Outstanding to hear, Shrieking Banshee! I hope that the rest of your family are safe as well.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on February 27, 2022, 07:06:19 PM
... And here you and Jaeger are, being convenient little fucking puppets of Putin dancing to his tune and looking for any excuse to push his propaganda.
...

You are very selective in your quotes. Typical behavior.

Push his propaganda? So calling Putin a Bad Dude is supporting his interests how?

Being a disingenuous Liar yet again.


Null 42 is correct:

However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.

But there are no white hats here.

Putin is a Bad Dude. But the West ain't lily white here either.

All those articles from liberal news outlets that I linked to casting American foreign policy in a bad light were all A-OK until Putin attacked.

And now, like magic, the internet is filled with: "All that shit that everyone reported on before - well um, uh, it's all Russian propaganda now!"

As if the West doesn't know how to do propaganda either?

(https://social.infogalactic.com/images/posts/c09c06e2-d493-4559-91a1-256bb704b5af/original-c423cf264bac4ba789fc7f5cec2030cb.jpeg?v=63813185481)

Everyone is pushing their propaganda 24/7 right now. Everyone.

Were all those stories I linked to from Years ago really all Russian propaganda? Or was it just good reporting that is inconvenient reading now that the West left Ukraine holding the bag?

You should tell the BBC to make up its mind.

On the one hand they report on the US interfering in a sovereign nations internal affairs:

Victoria Nuland at the State Department in 2014: (Currently serving as Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs.)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

And three years later they are highlighting how Russia pushes its narrative in the Ukraine:

Pro-Russia propaganda machine in Ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41915295

The BBC didn't seem to like either side...


The only real truth here is this:

The Ukrainian people have gotten screwed.

It's all a big mess.

And Nobody knows the full story because everyone involved in this shit since the fall of the USSR is shady as fuck.

Greetings!

Exactly right, Jaeger! I have seen these videos and news reports and documentaries--with interviews by Western journalists!--going back several years--say, 2014, 2015, and since. Our ellow member here, S'mon, has also heard about the Nazi Azov Battalions. Shrieking Banshee, also. I saw Grim Jim's video on Ukraine--and Grim Jim talked also about Nazi troops in Ukraine. Grim Jim said that Nazis don't have as much control as some fear--but he said Putin's statements in regard to Nazis in Ukraine was exaggerated, but honestly having some legitimate merit.

The whole lead up to this war with our involvement in Ukraine, the colour revolution, the working to get Ukraine into NATO, pushing advisors and other troops into Ukraine, disrespecting Russia, disregarding past security treaties and promises made to Russia about the expansion of NATO eastwards, EU and US bureaucrats working to get rich themselves and ensure that Ukraine got fucked--yeah, there are no white hats here in regards to the governments involved. It has been disgusting, absolutely corrupt, and shameful. Like the Liberals have whined about constantly in regards to foreign affairs, "It's nuanced! It's a complicated situation!"

I have heard that Ukrainians are fighting hard and resisting the Russian invasion. A Ukrainian woman and her finace were to get married in May--instead, they got married two days ago, because they believed that they may not have lived to be married in May. Two hours after getting married in the church, the couple were in the streets fighting the Russians. They said this way, they can fight and die together as husband and wife before God.

Inspiring!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jeff37923 on February 27, 2022, 07:32:53 PM

The only real truth here is this:

The Ukrainian people have gotten screwed.

It's all a big mess.

And Nobody knows the full story because everyone involved in this shit since the fall of the USSR is shady as fuck.

This is the meat of the current event.

Not the spin or the trolling, but the meat of this.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: DocJones on February 27, 2022, 07:55:48 PM
Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the West behind

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ed/cd/de/edcdde19b69e23be05e77b6208972fce.jpg)
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: DocJones on February 27, 2022, 08:15:16 PM
THEN, also as you noted, I have long been disturbed and concerned about actual, real, NAZI influence in Ukraine. I've seen videos and such where this isn't a few guys with political opinions just to the right of Mao, or who oppose the Alphabet Mafia, and are labeled as NAZI's by the deranged fucktard Left--there are entire *REGIMENTS* of heavily-armed NAZI's in the Ukrainian military, featuring swastika armbands, Nazi tattoos, waving Nazi banners and the whole bit. RIGHT SECTOR is fucking right, my friend! I've seen videos and interviews with these guys. Geesus. And the Ukrainian government embraces them and supports them.

And Lefty Liberal fucktards always screeching about how everyone that opposes them are Nazi's, and that Putin is a monster--how convenient they are oblivious to actual Nazis in positions of influence in Ukraine.

Shark, you'll notice I've been pretty quiet on Ukraine here. But this part, I gotta jump in. This part is Russian propaganda. You're repeating stuff directly planted by RT. That Nazi influence stuff is bullshit from FSB. They're taking two strategies on this one: 1) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as drug addicts, and 2) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as Nazis.

It's not that there isn't a neo-nazi nationalist segment of Ukraine. There is. There's one in most nations. But they're tiny, and have no power in Ukraine. In the 2019 election, the Ukrainian far right nationalists (which are not all neo-nazis themselves, but that's the group they allied with) were humiliated, receiving only 2% of the vote. That's less than they got in most EU nations, like France and Germany.

And as Pat mentioned, the President is Jewish, and he comes from a family like mine where most of his family was wiped out by the holocaust.

The actual Nazis do not have meaningful influence in Ukraine. But, Putin wants you to think they do. And he wants you to think drug addicts run Ukraine. Those are the two strategies their propaganda is taking, and people shouldn't fall for Russian propaganda. There is plenty of real stuff to talk about.

These guys here
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/02/27/ukraine-national-guard-shares-video-of-fighters-greasing-bullets-in-pig-fat-for-chechen-orcs/

Flying and wearing the Wolfsangel!
There's more Notsees in Ukraine than in all of the USA.
Still if they're greasing bullets for Czechan islamofascists...
Hopefully none of either is left standing.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 08:51:58 PM
Zelensky's showing way more balls than I ever anticipated from an ex-comedian. People surprise you.

I understand Putin's desire to avoid Ukraine joining NATO. Lithuania and Estonia are in NATO and are on his border. Remember how we reacted with Soviet missiles in Cuba (after we put them in Turkey)?

Ukraine's government was famously corrupt and questionably democratic.

However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
If Ukraine didn't want to be invaded, it shouldn't have exposed that sexy coastline.

I told it not to walk there drunk at night.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on February 27, 2022, 09:13:25 PM
Whether we or the Ukrainians appreciate it, Russians view Ukraine as part of Russia. As such I don't think they want to glass the place over. The real question is: What are their ultimate goals??? Do they want to 'liberate' the Russian ethnic majority areas, or do they want to bring 100% of Ukraine 'back' into Russian control? I have no earthly idea.

I think views in Russia are more complicated than that. After WWII, there was a lot of migration into Ukraine, resulting in a sizable (about 1/3 max) of the population being ethnic Russian. There is a strong sense of kinship but, I believe that many Russians that do have regular business in Ukraine (business, relations, etc) are a little more sophisticated. A lot of Russians (I believe Russian polls, for what they were worth) showed that there was an 80% approval rating over the take over of Crimea, but that  was almost entirely bloodless. The years since though, though despite the ease of traffic between the countries (easier than going between Canada and the USA), have been complicated by the Russian involvement in Eastern Ukraine. It solidified many in Ukraine against Russia and, I believe many Russians have been questioning just what their government is doing to their friendly neighbors. And sanctions do remind them as well. Many goods have doubled or tripled in price.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 09:18:47 PM
THEN, also as you noted, I have long been disturbed and concerned about actual, real, NAZI influence in Ukraine. I've seen videos and such where this isn't a few guys with political opinions just to the right of Mao, or who oppose the Alphabet Mafia, and are labeled as NAZI's by the deranged fucktard Left--there are entire *REGIMENTS* of heavily-armed NAZI's in the Ukrainian military, featuring swastika armbands, Nazi tattoos, waving Nazi banners and the whole bit. RIGHT SECTOR is fucking right, my friend! I've seen videos and interviews with these guys. Geesus. And the Ukrainian government embraces them and supports them.

And Lefty Liberal fucktards always screeching about how everyone that opposes them are Nazi's, and that Putin is a monster--how convenient they are oblivious to actual Nazis in positions of influence in Ukraine.

Shark, you'll notice I've been pretty quiet on Ukraine here. But this part, I gotta jump in. This part is Russian propaganda. You're repeating stuff directly planted by RT. That Nazi influence stuff is bullshit from FSB. They're taking two strategies on this one: 1) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as drug addicts, and 2) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as Nazis.

It's not that there isn't a neo-nazi nationalist segment of Ukraine. There is. There's one in most nations. But they're tiny, and have no power in Ukraine. In the 2019 election, the Ukrainian far right nationalists (which are not all neo-nazis themselves, but that's the group they allied with) were humiliated, receiving only 2% of the vote. That's less than they got in most EU nations, like France and Germany.

And as Pat mentioned, the President is Jewish, and he comes from a family like mine where most of his family was wiped out by the holocaust.

The actual Nazis do not have meaningful influence in Ukraine. But, Putin wants you to think they do. And he wants you to think drug addicts run Ukraine. Those are the two strategies their propaganda is taking, and people shouldn't fall for Russian propaganda. There is plenty of real stuff to talk about.

These guys here
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/02/27/ukraine-national-guard-shares-video-of-fighters-greasing-bullets-in-pig-fat-for-chechen-orcs/

Flying and wearing the Wolfsangel!
There's more Notsees in Ukraine than in all of the USA.
Still if they're greasing bullets for Czechan islamofascists...
Hopefully none of either is left standing.

Yes, the Azov Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion). Worth reading about, but noteworthy as not particularly representative of Ukraine or the military.

Again, there are neo-nazi's in Ukraine. The debate here is whether they are a meaningful portion of power in Ukraine (Putin's allegation) or not (mine and many others in this thread). Spinning them as mainstream and representative of Ukraine is Putin's propaganda.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 28, 2022, 12:33:10 AM
Yes, the Azov Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion). Worth reading about, but noteworthy as not particularly representative of Ukraine or the military.

Again, there are neo-nazi's in Ukraine. The debate here is whether they are a meaningful portion of power in Ukraine (Putin's allegation) or not (mine and many others in this thread). Spinning them as mainstream and representative of Ukraine is Putin's propaganda.

While I don't think their existence is a good enough reason to side against Ukraine, to be fair I'm pretty sure the average number of openly fascist battalions in most countries' militaries is closer to zero than one. I can understand why someone would find their existence, let alone the fact that a Ukrainian national guard just praised them, disturbing.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on February 28, 2022, 01:47:59 AM
Again, there are neo-nazi's in Ukraine. The debate here is whether they are a meaningful portion of power in Ukraine (Putin's allegation) or not (mine and many others in this thread). Spinning them as mainstream and representative of Ukraine is Putin's propaganda.

I think it likely very little. Svoboda did play a part in the Maidan movement. Although Azov does have the wolftrap symbol, these groups are 'neo-nazi'-like with ultra-nationalism. I don't believe they are Hitler worshipers per se. Russia also has its own (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity) and, they are even active on the "Pro-Russia" side in Donbass.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jam The MF on February 28, 2022, 04:56:59 AM
Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the West behind

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ed/cd/de/edcdde19b69e23be05e77b6208972fce.jpg)

You do have a point.....
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:02:41 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.

Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:09:00 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.

Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.

(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:14:07 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.

Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.

(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
The same could be said of most political leaders anyways.

But yeah, nothing like having what should be a 'gimme' turn into a huge mess for him. Kind of hard on the Ukrainians, though.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 08:14:22 AM
  I see so much propaganda, I have no idea how to determine how this is going.  I mean, zelensky is being made out to be jessica price(well till the truth came out) at this point, for doing the BARE minimum as a leader (being willing to die defending his country).   I do know this, combine social media and a war, and news outlets are like dogs running in a circle reporting absolute bullshit.   I expect propaganda, but it is out of control.   You would think the spartans are resurrected at thermopalyae.   

   I think this resolves with minimal loss of life, except for the Azoz batallion, I suspect the russians will wage actual war on them, and not an action that looks less agressive than a USA swat team.
 
  My main concern is the egos involved (NATO aka USA) and Putin can not really afford to back down.  Putin has a few options to save face, but they all involve signing paper.  NATO can not afford for him to get anything, or they look terrible, and Biden has those midterms coming.  Less meddling is best IMO for a quick resolution one way or the other, since the people involved at least from the NATO side seem like idiots who very well could trigger WW3. 
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:16:20 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.

Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.

(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
The same could be said of most political leaders anyways.

But yeah, nothing like having what should be a 'gimme' turn into a huge mess for him. Kind of hard on the Ukrainians, though.
The Swift thing could turn out to be a mistake. Putin does have nukes.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:16:58 AM
  My main concern is the egos involved (NATO aka USA) and Putin can not really afford to back down.  Putin has a few options to save face, but they all involve signing paper.  NATO can not afford for him to get anything, or they look terrible, and Biden has those midterms coming.  Less meddling is best IMO for a quick resolution one way or the other, since the people involved at least from the NATO side seem like idiots who very well could trigger WW3.
They're poking a nuclear bear.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 08:18:26 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.

Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.

(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)

  I am not so sure that is true.  He seems to be invading while leaving services, buildings, people, and infrastructure intact.   It took the USA 43 days to take Iraq, and the USA did NOT attempt to leave anything intact.   I do not know his timeline, neither do you, and let's face it, neither do the "experts" on TV who have made huge fuck ups regarding their prognostications on Iraq and Afghanistan. 

  Now, if he hit you with an email about his time line I take that back.  I just can not see a ruthless pragmatist expecting to have it all wrapped up in 7 days.   I think it goes past a month, he will start feeling pressure. My hope is if his ego is destroyed he does not decide to take the world with him going down.  The press has certainly painted a picture of a guy more than willing to destroy most humans on the planet over his ego.  I hope they are liars.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 08:20:04 AM
  I would also say, between Russia and the USA judging relative egos and destructive temper tantrums......again Russia has not shown to be as bad as the USA with how they react when their will is not done.  So I have no idea where the whole will go (if contained to just Russia and Ukraine).

   If anyone needs a PR win in all this, it is certainly Biden.  I just feel no decisions around it will be his at all.  His people around him though....in way over their heads.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:24:35 AM
  I would also say, between Russia and the USA judging relative egos and destructive temper tantrums......again Russia has not shown to be as bad as the USA with how they react when their will is not done.  So I have no idea where the whole will go (if contained to just Russia and Ukraine).

   If anyone needs a PR win in all this, it is certainly Biden.  I just feel no decisions around it will be his at all.  His people around him though....in way over their heads.
Everything's relative. The US is used to getting their way, while Russia hasn't been holding a winning hand in decades. So the US is bad at small setbacks, while Putin can take pride in small victories. The problem is leaving him without anything he can call a victory.

This would definitely be time for a diplomatic masterstroke from a US President, but I 100% agree we won't see one.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 08:47:01 AM
I think Zelensky will sign a deal to not join NATO and let those regions go.   I think Putin would take that deal (I am not convinced he feels he has to displace the government, I think that is a big ask and willing to take a smaller deal), though his rhetoric at the moment seems as if he is not going to make a compromise with current government.  I honestly can not say.  I have limited interactions with Russians (they were all soldiers, and we all were drinking) and their emotions seemed to go from super flatline stable to volcano hot in a slit second, but then back to calm.  It was a little odd, and I have no idea how representative of Russians those guys were. 
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:49:20 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.

Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.

(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
The same could be said of most political leaders anyways.

But yeah, nothing like having what should be a 'gimme' turn into a huge mess for him. Kind of hard on the Ukrainians, though.
The Swift thing could turn out to be a mistake. Putin does have nukes.
Throwing nukes when Russia's already been building their own payment system? And when China has clearly shown they're at least willing to play hopscotch with Putin, regardless of past animosity?

Sorry, Pat, but lolnope.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:53:51 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.

Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.

(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
The same could be said of most political leaders anyways.

But yeah, nothing like having what should be a 'gimme' turn into a huge mess for him. Kind of hard on the Ukrainians, though.
The Swift thing could turn out to be a mistake. Putin does have nukes.
Throwing nukes when Russia's already been building their own payment system? And when China has clearly shown they're at least willing to play hopscotch with Putin, regardless of past animosity?

Sorry, Pat, but lolnope.
A nuke would be the end result of a string of humiliations. The safe bet is that string would have to be pretty long, but that's just a guess and we won't know until it happens. We're dealing with a stupid US president who needs to play macho for the mid-terms, a Russian president-for-life who acts macho and needs a win, media that's spinning this so hard it's turned into a blur, and sanctions that amount to turning them to into a pariah state like Iran. This is playing with fire.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on February 28, 2022, 12:07:36 PM
Odds of Putin suffering acute lead poisoning now that the Russian oligarchs are starting to go broke?  20% inflation, run on the banks, and dead Russian soldiers stacked up like cordwood...  And the looks on the faces of his generalissimos when he announced strategic rocket forces on full alert...

And make no mistake, Europe united on this *despite* the waterhead in the White House.

While we're on the subject, wha' happen' to all the deadliest plagues pandemic?!?  Why no troops in full-on MOPP suits waving jabs around?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 12:34:19 PM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.

Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.

(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
The same could be said of most political leaders anyways.

But yeah, nothing like having what should be a 'gimme' turn into a huge mess for him. Kind of hard on the Ukrainians, though.
The Swift thing could turn out to be a mistake. Putin does have nukes.
Throwing nukes when Russia's already been building their own payment system? And when China has clearly shown they're at least willing to play hopscotch with Putin, regardless of past animosity?

Sorry, Pat, but lolnope.

You can't really build an alternative "system" when SWIFT is more an agreement than a system. Anyone can create a wire transfer system, that parts easy. The key to SWIFT (which I use every month, sometimes multiple times a week) is it's an agreement between banks to send and accept and validate transactions. He's not going to get that agreement regardless of an alternative wire system he creates. So sure they can create a system which works between them, China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, and maybe a couple other nations. But that's not all that useful in the grand scheme of things. The economic world is just much larger than that.

Now I don't think for a moment Putin will throw nukes. But I do think an actual SWIFT shut-off (which this isn't by the way - it's only a partial shut off so far to a handful of banks which could be subverted by using other banks) would harm them a lot. Their own analysis (announced prior to all this) is it would reduce their economy by 5% almost immediately.

Switzerland, traditionally neutral, just took sides in this and is freezing Russian assets. THAT is going to hurt. A lot of Russian oligarchs used those banks assuming that could never happen. Russia might be a communist nation, but it's also a corrupt and ruthlessly capitalist at the top. The wealthy have a huge amount of influence in Russia and they are not going to be happy with this turn of events between asset freezes and SWIFT shut downs.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 12:38:38 PM
Odds of Putin suffering acute lead poisoning now that the Russian oligarchs are starting to go broke?  20% inflation, run on the banks, and dead Russian soldiers stacked up like cordwood...  And the looks on the faces of his generalissimos when he announced strategic rocket forces on full alert...

And make no mistake, Europe united on this *despite* the waterhead in the White House.

Hey look I mostly agree with 3cat on something. Been a while.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.

Go look at a map of the Soviet Union (preferably one with terrain features), and then compare it to a more current map. The current Russian border runs along the wide and indefensible European Plain from the Baltic to the Black Sea. The Soviet (and former Russian) borders ran from the Carpathian Mountains to Kaliningrad, a much more defensible position.

NATO foolishly expanded to the Russian borders while refusing to provide security guarantees to Russia. Is it so hard to imagine Russian leaders looking at the map in despair? The current Russian border is indefensible. History has proven that time and time again.

I think anything else is just nonsense, and misinformation. Ukraine is not a fascist state that is run by old school NAZIs (even though there are some old school NAZIs in positions of power). Nor is it an up and coming 'model of democratic progress!' (Like in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, etc.????). It is just a failed state being run by corrupt incompetent fools who are too busy robbing anything worth stealing to worry about ideologies.

A hostile Ukraine on Russia's border poses a serious threat to Russian security. We have refused to accept this fact to everyone's embarrassment and harm.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on February 28, 2022, 01:04:35 PM
I think anything else is just nonsense, and misinformation. Ukraine is not a fascist state that is run by old school NAZIs (even though there are some old school NAZIs in positions of power). Nor is it an up and coming 'model of democratic progress!' (Like in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, etc.????). It is just a failed state being run by corrupt incompetent fools who are too busy robbing anything worth stealing to worry about ideologies.

It isn't a 'model' but it has been working to rid itself of corruption. That is really hard to do considering the layers of corruption that existed before and after the fall of the Soviet Union. The quality of politicians has at least incrementally, improved since. Not every politician is on the take. A lot of Ukrainian citizens look at other Post Soviet countries in the EU and like what they see. For many younger ones, that's the vision they have because they don't remember the Soviet years.

A hostile Ukraine on Russia's border poses a serious threat to Russian security. We have refused to accept this fact to everyone's embarrassment and harm.

They are hostile as a result of Russia's actions, and nothing else. Given the number of ethnic Russians in Ukraine and, the general acceptance of cross border transit (just like Canada and the USA, some people work on opposite sides of the border), Ukrainians are by nature not-hostile towards Russians. You only find hostility among the tiniest number of nutjobs.

Putin originally wanted to create an economic zone like the EC / EU but it would have basically replicated the centralized power of Russia with few benefits for member nations. He blew it.  The other post Soviet countries want to determine their own futures and not be part of a 19th century, ethno-based empire. Self determination is all that matters and Russia has to accept that.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 01:09:03 PM
I think anything else is just nonsense, and misinformation. Ukraine is not a fascist state that is run by old school NAZIs (even though there are some old school NAZIs in positions of power). Nor is it an up and coming 'model of democratic progress!' (Like in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, etc.????). It is just a failed state being run by corrupt incompetent fools who are too busy robbing anything worth stealing to worry about ideologies.

It isn't a 'model' but it has been working to rid itself of corruption. That is really hard to do considering the layers of corruption that existed before and after the fall of the Soviet Union. The quality of politicians has at least incrementally, improved since. Not every politician is on the take. A lot of Ukrainian citizens look at other Post Soviet countries in the EU and like what they see. For many younger ones, that's the vision they have because they don't remember the Soviet years.

A hostile Ukraine on Russia's border poses a serious threat to Russian security. We have refused to accept this fact to everyone's embarrassment and harm.

They are hostile as a result of Russia's actions, and nothing else. Given the number of ethnic Russians in Ukraine and, the general acceptance of cross border transit (just like Canada and the USA, some people work on opposite sides of the border), Ukrainians are by nature not-hostile towards Russians. You only find hostility among the tiniest number of nutjobs.

Putin originally wanted to create an economic zone like the EC / EU but it would have basically replicated the centralized power of Russia with few benefits for member nations. He blew it.  The other post Soviet countries want to determine their own futures and not be part of a 19th century, ethno-based empire. Self determination is all that matters and Russia has to accept that.

Ignoring the motivations of your enemy does not make you stronger. It certainly does not make you wiser. Nor does demonizing your enemy help in any way.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on February 28, 2022, 01:14:07 PM
Ignoring the motivations of your enemy does not make you stronger. It certainly does not make you wiser. Nor does demonizing your enemy help in any way.

Correct. But acknowledgement of understanding isn't agreement. Speaking truth to power isn't demonizing.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 01:17:30 PM
  News reports non stop it is going so badly...but he has the cities he wants surrounded...casualty reports are completely unreliable...the reality is Putin has a few cards to play that Zelensky does not.  He could simply start waging actual war and doing a USA style attack and level everything and cut off the water/power/internet at the drop of a dime.  IF they talk, I suspect he mentions this, and Zelensky takes a deal.   My worry is Putin will wage warfare USA style, and then people are going to get killed in the thousands in short order.  I hope they reach some agreement, even if it is some bullshit to put this off for another decade. 

    Because if Putin wages USA style war, I think NATO takes direct action, and then all bets are off.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 01:26:58 PM
  News reports non stop it is going so badly...but he has the cities he wants surrounded...casualty reports are completely unreliable...the reality is Putin has a few cards to play that Zelensky does not.  He could simply start waging actual war and doing a USA style attack and level everything and cut off the water/power/internet at the drop of a dime.  IF they talk, I suspect he mentions this, and Zelensky takes a deal.   My worry is Putin will wage warfare USA style, and then people are going to get killed in the thousands in short order.  I hope they reach some agreement, even if it is some bullshit to put this off for another decade. 

    Because if Putin wages USA style war, I think NATO takes direct action, and then all bets are off.

Be careful. Trying to rationally consider the motivations, thoughts, and potential actions of your opposition means you are Putin Puppet! :(
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 01:42:37 PM
  News reports non stop it is going so badly...but he has the cities he wants surrounded...casualty reports are completely unreliable...the reality is Putin has a few cards to play that Zelensky does not.  He could simply start waging actual war and doing a USA style attack and level everything and cut off the water/power/internet at the drop of a dime.  IF they talk, I suspect he mentions this, and Zelensky takes a deal.   My worry is Putin will wage warfare USA style, and then people are going to get killed in the thousands in short order.  I hope they reach some agreement, even if it is some bullshit to put this off for another decade. 

    Because if Putin wages USA style war, I think NATO takes direct action, and then all bets are off.

Be careful. Trying to rationally consider the motivations, thoughts, and potential actions of your opposition means you are Putin Puppet! :(

   Well, I got called a terror apologist for doubting the desert wars years ago.   The USA does SO MUCH dirty shit, it is hard for me to listen to its pundits/media/so called experts because they are all motivated by factors that are not the truth.  I am a no war period person, so to me Putin is in the wrong, but I am also a believer Their business is not Our business.  The Founders had a great point with avoiding ALL foreign entanglements. 
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 01:54:20 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.

Go look at a map of the Soviet Union (preferably one with terrain features), and then compare it to a more current map. The current Russian border runs along the wide and indefensible European Plain from the Baltic to the Black Sea. The Soviet (and former Russian) borders ran from the Carpathian Mountains to Kaliningrad, a much more defensible position.

Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.

Even if Russia didn't have nukes -- having a non-mountainous border doesn't give a nation the right to invade and conquer its neighbor. There are tons of countries in the world with borders that are no more defensible than Russia's.

This is not about defense of Russia. Russia is not being threatened by Ukraine. It is purely the opposite. Russia wants to use its military to threaten and dominate its neighboring countries.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 02:03:57 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.

Go look at a map of the Soviet Union (preferably one with terrain features), and then compare it to a more current map. The current Russian border runs along the wide and indefensible European Plain from the Baltic to the Black Sea. The Soviet (and former Russian) borders ran from the Carpathian Mountains to Kaliningrad, a much more defensible position.

Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.

Even if Russia didn't have nukes -- having a non-mountainous border doesn't give a nation the right to invade and conquer its neighbor. There are tons of countries in the world with borders that are no more defensible than Russia's.

This is not about defense of Russia. Russia is not being threatened by Ukraine. It is purely the opposite. Russia wants to use its military to threaten and dominate its neighboring countries.

Russia has the gross national product of Spain. Over the last 500 years it has been attacked by Westerners almost a dozen times. Perhaps their current fears are unfounded, but they are not afraid of legions of Ukrainians pouring over their indefensible borders. They are afraid of a unified Europe pouring over their indefensible borders. Ignoring history, and ignoring our enemies motivations, concerns, even irrational fears... is foolish IMHO. But take care and enjoy the day!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 02:12:56 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge.

We really don't. They've always had security concerns. They have security concerns with dozens of nations. They have actual NATO countries already on their border. Ukraine had not been accepted or even applied to NATO there were just discussions and NOTHING was imminent such that they needed to invade now or something would have irreparably happened to their security issues.

We don't need to acknowledge shit. Putin decided to invade because he thought he could get away with it. He even timed it right after the Olympics happened as a convenience - that's how not-pressing his "security issues" were. The rest is simpering excuses being pushed by the FSB through RT to dozens of other "news" sites trying to get willing puppets and people angry at various western Governments to sympathize with their bullshit excuse for invading a country because they thought they could get away with it.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:13:06 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.

Go look at a map of the Soviet Union (preferably one with terrain features), and then compare it to a more current map. The current Russian border runs along the wide and indefensible European Plain from the Baltic to the Black Sea. The Soviet (and former Russian) borders ran from the Carpathian Mountains to Kaliningrad, a much more defensible position.

Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.

Even if Russia didn't have nukes -- having a non-mountainous border doesn't give a nation the right to invade and conquer its neighbor. There are tons of countries in the world with borders that are no more defensible than Russia's.

This is not about defense of Russia. Russia is not being threatened by Ukraine. It is purely the opposite. Russia wants to use its military to threaten and dominate its neighboring countries.

  Well, after watching the USA use its military to threaten and dominate other countries, who can blame them for giving it a shot?   
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:52:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

The thing is Russia doesn't think for a moment we have those ambitions. They invaded Crimea in essentially the same way they're invading the rest of the country now and none of that was a serious reaction to anything the U.S. did. I think it's very easy to become U.S.-focused on these matters but I don't think the U.S. is the primary concern for Russia in any of their decisions regarding Ukraine. Putin wants effective control over the old USSR republics, and when he sees an opportunity to either install a puppet government for that purpose or grab territory for that purpose, he does it. This time, he waited until after the Olympics to call somewhat less attention to himself (which failed) and for when he thinks the west is fairly weak in dealing with Covid and a pretty lackluster U.S. President so it just seemed like a good time for him to force a puppet government in Ukraine. Not because he thought the U.S. was imminently going to do jack shit in the region.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 05:22:27 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?

      It is not a whataboutism.  It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on February 28, 2022, 06:50:38 PM
Russia has the gross national product of Spain. Over the last 500 years it has been attacked by Westerners almost a dozen times. Perhaps their current fears are unfounded, but they are not afraid of legions of Ukrainians pouring over their indefensible borders. They are afraid of a unified Europe pouring over their indefensible borders. Ignoring history, and ignoring our enemies motivations, concerns, even irrational fears... is foolish IMHO. But take care and enjoy the day!

Fear is a motivation for everyone, and a part of sitting at the big kid's table of the 21st century is that nobody gets to play the victim card and taken seriously except maybe for their own internal captive audiences. That goes for Russia, and it also goes for the 'century of humiliation' propaganda crowd.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 28, 2022, 07:25:32 PM
   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

$10 internet bucks says that there will be no yes or no answer.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 08:00:56 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.

Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.

Russia has the gross national product of Spain. Over the last 500 years it has been attacked by Westerners almost a dozen times. Perhaps their current fears are unfounded, but they are not afraid of legions of Ukrainians pouring over their indefensible borders. They are afraid of a unified Europe pouring over their indefensible borders. Ignoring history, and ignoring our enemies motivations, concerns, even irrational fears... is foolish IMHO.

I've known a lot of Russians, and none of them gave any indication of being afraid of an EU military invasion. Based on what I know, I simply don't buy your claim that the Russians are irrationally afraid of being invaded by Europe.

Some of these may feel Russia is being shut out of resources unfairly. There may be some who think they are fighting for the well-being of Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk. But fearing invasion is not on their mind.

As far as what the Russians are hearing and believing, I thought this piece by a Bulgarian acquaintance of mine was interesting. Apologies for phrasing as it is auto-translated from Bulgarian.

Quote
I want to bring your attention to an interesting paradox.

For nearly ten years, Putin's propaganda has been using the images and myths of the Second World War against power in Ukraine. Uses highly busy meaningful symbols, rhetoric and interpretations aimed at creating and maintaining specific strategic narratives, to shape the perception and emotional response to certain actions and events throughout the continuous process recalling the Great Patriotic War: the Ukrainian government was represented as "fascist", the Ukrainian army - as "executors" or "banderovts", a annexation of Crimea - as "the third defense of Sevastopol". The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is extremely powerful, it will always challenge the feelings and moods of a large part of the people living east of Berlin. The Soviet ideological machine carefully built and maintained this mythology for decades, planted it in the minds and hearts of the peoples of Eastern Europe, in places not quite successfully, in places partially, but in their own territorial borders - perfect.

The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is a shared mythology for Russians and Ukrainians, that is why it worked so well in the hybrid war. However, to a huge surprise to the Russian command, it seems that it works even better in the real war. Shared mythology is a two-blade knife. Didn't Putin's strategists predict this, didn't they expect it? Ukrainians studied history in the same textbooks, also read "Young Guard", cried at "A dawn is quiet here", marched in line with "Get up a huge country, get up on a deadly fight with a fascist force dark, with a cursed horde", taught and they are going to play the guitar with "Here Birds No they sing, trees do not grow, and only we grow shoulder to shoulder in the ground here. Just like the rest of us. Should not surprise us at all that they have risen up for a "holy war" against "racists" as they already call them on Twitter.

Therefore, contrary to all Putin's plans and expectations, Kyiv has not yet been taken over. Because Kyiv is not Kabul, Kyiv is "Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol... and they will defend him to the last person with radical, almost absurd gestures of heroism and sacrifice. So a boy self-exploded himself on a bridge to stop the military column, and one grandfather obstructed the way of the tanks with his tarot. Westerners don't quite understand similar meaningless gestures of sacrifice, but we understand them much better because we've watched the same movies, because we've read the same books, because we know what it means - "we need one victory, one for all - we're for there is no price."

Ukrainians are currently waging their Great Homeland War.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 08:27:53 PM
   It seems they are at least talking with diplomats meeting one another.  I suspect a deal will be made in a week or two.   One where both guys can come off looking as good as a bad situation allows.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 09:12:43 PM
It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

The question was to Mistwell, but for my two cents, I think it's obvious that morally there is a single standard for all countries.

The rule for invading another sovereign nation are simple. Don't do it. If country A invades country B, then they are wrong - and country B is entitled to fight back. Further, country C and country D are justified in helping country B defend itself.

Lots of countries have engaged in unjustified wars of aggression in history - including Russia, Iraq, the U.S., Britain, France, etc. None of that makes it right when another country does it.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on February 28, 2022, 09:30:52 PM
How do people imagine we even get Countries in the first place?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on February 28, 2022, 09:35:05 PM
How do people imagine we even get Countries in the first place?
God bequeathed a Map of All the World and the Proper and Approved National Boundaries to his only xir.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 10:08:27 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?

      It is not a whataboutism.  It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: yancy on February 28, 2022, 10:24:29 PM
I'd like Putin a shit-ton better if he decided to bomb Chatsworth instead of Kiev. One can only hope those mothballed nukes still got what it takes :/
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 10:36:09 PM
A long but interesting and informative interview with a genuine Russian expert about this topic that's worth reading. From Politico, "Yes, He Would’: Fiona Hill on Putin and Nukes (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340)"
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: KingCheops on February 28, 2022, 10:46:38 PM
How do people imagine we even get Countries in the first place?

Faerie dust and unicorn farts.  Every country on the planet has existed in its current, immutable state from the dawn of time except for those in the New World and Australia/New Zealand.  Those were "stolen" from the conquerors, slavers and rapists who stole it from the people who came before them.

Don't argue with science bro.  You some sort of nazi?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on March 01, 2022, 03:19:51 AM
How do people imagine we even get Countries in the first place?

Faerie dust and unicorn farts.  Every country on the planet has existed in its current, immutable state from the dawn of time except for those in the New World and Australia/New Zealand.  Those were "stolen" from the conquerors, slavers and rapists who stole it from the people who came before them.

So the Ukrainians shouldn't get upset over being invaded - because it's just the normal way that countries get made, and it's no big deal? 

I don't think that will go over big with them. Yes, lots of invasions have happened in history, just like lots of murders have happened and many other crimes - but that doesn't mean that it is acceptable.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on March 01, 2022, 04:50:23 AM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.

Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.

Russia has the gross national product of Spain. Over the last 500 years it has been attacked by Westerners almost a dozen times. Perhaps their current fears are unfounded, but they are not afraid of legions of Ukrainians pouring over their indefensible borders. They are afraid of a unified Europe pouring over their indefensible borders. Ignoring history, and ignoring our enemies motivations, concerns, even irrational fears... is foolish IMHO.

I've known a lot of Russians, and none of them gave any indication of being afraid of an EU military invasion. Based on what I know, I simply don't buy your claim that the Russians are irrationally afraid of being invaded by Europe.

Some of these may feel Russia is being shut out of resources unfairly. There may be some who think they are fighting for the well-being of Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk. But fearing invasion is not on their mind.

As far as what the Russians are hearing and believing, I thought this piece by a Bulgarian acquaintance of mine was interesting. Apologies for phrasing as it is auto-translated from Bulgarian.

Quote
I want to bring your attention to an interesting paradox.

For nearly ten years, Putin's propaganda has been using the images and myths of the Second World War against power in Ukraine. Uses highly busy meaningful symbols, rhetoric and interpretations aimed at creating and maintaining specific strategic narratives, to shape the perception and emotional response to certain actions and events throughout the continuous process recalling the Great Patriotic War: the Ukrainian government was represented as "fascist", the Ukrainian army - as "executors" or "banderovts", a annexation of Crimea - as "the third defense of Sevastopol". The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is extremely powerful, it will always challenge the feelings and moods of a large part of the people living east of Berlin. The Soviet ideological machine carefully built and maintained this mythology for decades, planted it in the minds and hearts of the peoples of Eastern Europe, in places not quite successfully, in places partially, but in their own territorial borders - perfect.

The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is a shared mythology for Russians and Ukrainians, that is why it worked so well in the hybrid war. However, to a huge surprise to the Russian command, it seems that it works even better in the real war. Shared mythology is a two-blade knife. Didn't Putin's strategists predict this, didn't they expect it? Ukrainians studied history in the same textbooks, also read "Young Guard", cried at "A dawn is quiet here", marched in line with "Get up a huge country, get up on a deadly fight with a fascist force dark, with a cursed horde", taught and they are going to play the guitar with "Here Birds No they sing, trees do not grow, and only we grow shoulder to shoulder in the ground here. Just like the rest of us. Should not surprise us at all that they have risen up for a "holy war" against "racists" as they already call them on Twitter.

Therefore, contrary to all Putin's plans and expectations, Kyiv has not yet been taken over. Because Kyiv is not Kabul, Kyiv is "Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol... and they will defend him to the last person with radical, almost absurd gestures of heroism and sacrifice. So a boy self-exploded himself on a bridge to stop the military column, and one grandfather obstructed the way of the tanks with his tarot. Westerners don't quite understand similar meaningless gestures of sacrifice, but we understand them much better because we've watched the same movies, because we've read the same books, because we know what it means - "we need one victory, one for all - we're for there is no price."

Ukrainians are currently waging their Great Homeland War.

Greetings!

Jhkim, thank you for providing your Bulgarian friend's commentary on the war going on in Ukraine. That commentary is very interesting, and even inspiring.

I hope that Ukraine stands strong in these terrible times. I read about a former Ukrainian beauty queen and current model, some girl about 28 years old, evidently she has quit her job and other involvements, and has volunteered to serve in the Ukrainian military to fight against the Russian invaders. She told her followers in a message on IG (I think*) that the Russian invaders will all die on Ukrainian land! She held up an AK rifle at a shooting range, and says she has volunteered to be sent to the front lines.

I heard an interview with an elderly Ukrainian man that said he isn't going anywhere, and is ready to fight the Russians, and will kill them with his knife if he must.

Many Ukrainians are likewise inspired by President Zelensky's heroic speeches, actions, and commitment to fight the Russians to the end. President Zelensky said he isn't fleeing anywhere, flying out by helicopter, to escape. No, he has a helmet on and a rifle, and said he is staying right there in the streets of Kiev with his soldiers by his side and his people, to resist the Russian invaders.

Fucking Awesome! Zelensky is really showing his true quality by going through the trial of fire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:11:51 AM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?

      It is not a whataboutism.  It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.

  So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not?   I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong.  I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:13:05 AM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.

Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.

Russia has the gross national product of Spain. Over the last 500 years it has been attacked by Westerners almost a dozen times. Perhaps their current fears are unfounded, but they are not afraid of legions of Ukrainians pouring over their indefensible borders. They are afraid of a unified Europe pouring over their indefensible borders. Ignoring history, and ignoring our enemies motivations, concerns, even irrational fears... is foolish IMHO.

I've known a lot of Russians, and none of them gave any indication of being afraid of an EU military invasion. Based on what I know, I simply don't buy your claim that the Russians are irrationally afraid of being invaded by Europe.

Some of these may feel Russia is being shut out of resources unfairly. There may be some who think they are fighting for the well-being of Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk. But fearing invasion is not on their mind.

As far as what the Russians are hearing and believing, I thought this piece by a Bulgarian acquaintance of mine was interesting. Apologies for phrasing as it is auto-translated from Bulgarian.

Quote
I want to bring your attention to an interesting paradox.

For nearly ten years, Putin's propaganda has been using the images and myths of the Second World War against power in Ukraine. Uses highly busy meaningful symbols, rhetoric and interpretations aimed at creating and maintaining specific strategic narratives, to shape the perception and emotional response to certain actions and events throughout the continuous process recalling the Great Patriotic War: the Ukrainian government was represented as "fascist", the Ukrainian army - as "executors" or "banderovts", a annexation of Crimea - as "the third defense of Sevastopol". The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is extremely powerful, it will always challenge the feelings and moods of a large part of the people living east of Berlin. The Soviet ideological machine carefully built and maintained this mythology for decades, planted it in the minds and hearts of the peoples of Eastern Europe, in places not quite successfully, in places partially, but in their own territorial borders - perfect.

The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is a shared mythology for Russians and Ukrainians, that is why it worked so well in the hybrid war. However, to a huge surprise to the Russian command, it seems that it works even better in the real war. Shared mythology is a two-blade knife. Didn't Putin's strategists predict this, didn't they expect it? Ukrainians studied history in the same textbooks, also read "Young Guard", cried at "A dawn is quiet here", marched in line with "Get up a huge country, get up on a deadly fight with a fascist force dark, with a cursed horde", taught and they are going to play the guitar with "Here Birds No they sing, trees do not grow, and only we grow shoulder to shoulder in the ground here. Just like the rest of us. Should not surprise us at all that they have risen up for a "holy war" against "racists" as they already call them on Twitter.

Therefore, contrary to all Putin's plans and expectations, Kyiv has not yet been taken over. Because Kyiv is not Kabul, Kyiv is "Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol... and they will defend him to the last person with radical, almost absurd gestures of heroism and sacrifice. So a boy self-exploded himself on a bridge to stop the military column, and one grandfather obstructed the way of the tanks with his tarot. Westerners don't quite understand similar meaningless gestures of sacrifice, but we understand them much better because we've watched the same movies, because we've read the same books, because we know what it means - "we need one victory, one for all - we're for there is no price."

Ukrainians are currently waging their Great Homeland War.

Greetings!

Jhkim, thank you for providing your Bulgarian friend's commentary on the war going on in Ukraine. That commentary is very interesting, and even inspiring.

I hope that Ukraine stands strong in these terrible times. I read about a former Ukrainian beauty queen and current model, some girl about 28 years old, evidently she has quit her job and other involvements, and has volunteered to serve in the Ukrainian military to fight against the Russian invaders. She told her followers in a message on IG (I think*) that the Russian invaders will all die on Ukrainian land! She held up an AK rifle at a shooting range, and says she has volunteered to be sent to the front lines.

I heard an interview with an elderly Ukrainian man that said he isn't going anywhere, and is ready to fight the Russians, and will kill them with his knife if he must.

Many Ukrainians are likewise inspired by President Zelensky's heroic speeches, actions, and commitment to fight the Russians to the end. President Zelensky said he isn't fleeing anywhere, flying out by helicopter, to escape. No, he has a helmet on and a rifle, and said he is staying right there in the streets of Kiev with his soldiers by his side and his people, to resist the Russian invaders.

Fucking Awesome! Zelensky is really showing his true quality by going through the trial of fire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

  So the beauty queen story was complete bullshit.  She posed with an airsoft rifle, and later stated she is not going to be fighting as  she is not military.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:51:06 AM
It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

The question was to Mistwell, but for my two cents, I think it's obvious that morally there is a single standard for all countries.

The rule for invading another sovereign nation are simple. Don't do it. If country A invades country B, then they are wrong - and country B is entitled to fight back. Further, country C and country D are justified in helping country B defend itself.

Lots of countries have engaged in unjustified wars of aggression in history - including Russia, Iraq, the U.S., Britain, France, etc. None of that makes it right when another country does it.

  The USA has a stated standard for getting involved with military force on foreign soil, for legal purposes.  It is extremely thin.  Now I think the standard used is bad, and does not match your, or my moral standard.  You say one bad thing does not justify another...but the reality is if the rules to not apply to everyone, eventually they apply to no one.  I suspect this is why mistwell ducks that question.  We can all pretend Russia happened in some vacuum, but that simply is not the case.  With almost all major world events there is usually a history, a build up, and surrounding behaviors from other nations. 

   I want this to stand out crystal clear, because in the press, internet, social media, everywhere I see a whole lot of what looks like an overtime effort to manufacture consent.  Given how out of pocket some of the talking heads are getting it is for some sort of military actions, like a no fly zone enforced by "nato".  I am a firm no on this or any military action, I am honestly against giving the Ukraine military money or weapons...but compromise....

   The same folks who keep saying Putin is literally darth vader also pretend he is bluffing about using nuclear weapons.   I do not think I care to risk if darth vader is willing to use the death star.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 07:02:49 AM
I am honestly against giving the Ukraine military money or weapons...but compromise....

I understand the situation is complex, but don’t mince words. If you comprise with someone that takes and doesn’t give back: thats called a loss.

Say Ukraine must take its lumps for the sake of international security, but don’t call it “compromise”.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 07:05:14 AM
I am honestly against giving the Ukraine military money or weapons...but compromise....

I understand the situation is complex, but don’t mince words. If you comprise with someone that takes and doesn’t give back: thats called a loss.

Say Ukraine must take its lumps for the sake of international security, but don’t call it “compromise”.

   I mean in the sense of the actions my fearless leaders are going to take.  Capitulate is a better word, but I like feeling better and calling a turd a rare gem.   I am against any foreign aid for any nation, at least until I see the USA budget running at a surplus, so I get to make lots of mental "compromises".   So I did not mean it in the sense Ukraine needs to get curb stomped as a compromise.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 07:21:39 AM
So I did not mean it in the sense Ukraine needs to get curb stomped as a compromise.
So far most of the equipment military aid has been EU.
And capitulation for what? Ukraine getting its ass handed to it? Im so sorry this is such a turd for you.
The West should have made better trade deals or not overthrown the elected government to deny the Ukraine to Putin when he was offering money, not mortars.

As I said. I don’t want WW3 for Ukraine, but im not sure how this is a Turd for the USA.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 07:32:51 AM
So I did not mean it in the sense Ukraine needs to get curb stomped as a compromise.
So far most of the equipment military aid has been EU.
And capitulation for what? Ukraine getting its ass handed to it? Im so sorry this is such a turd for you.
The West should have made better trade deals or not overthrown the elected government to deny the Ukraine to Putin when he was offering money, not mortars.

As I said. I don’t want WW3 for Ukraine, but im not sure how this is a Turd for the USA.

  The Turd for me, is giving money to other countries, any country, while the budget in the USA has run at a deficit for about 40+ years in a row.   Most equipment is relative.  Stinger missiles are lots of bang for the buck.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 07:43:15 AM
  The Turd for me, is giving money to other countries, any country, while the budget in the USA has run at a deficit for about 40+ years in a row.   Most equipment is relative.  Stinger missiles are lots of bang for the buck.
As a United States Citizen, fair enough. Though most of that is medical and welfare related.

Im left with conflicting emotions and desires. I want the USA to stop playing politics with other nations fir at the very least its own good. But I also don’t want Ukraine to be taken by force by Russia. But I also want less people to die because I don’t see Ukraine getting better after this war. And I don’t want Nuclear escalation. But I don’t want to return to 1900 style conquest theatrics.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 07:55:08 AM
  The Turd for me, is giving money to other countries, any country, while the budget in the USA has run at a deficit for about 40+ years in a row.   Most equipment is relative.  Stinger missiles are lots of bang for the buck.
As a United States Citizen, fair enough. Though most of that is medical and welfare related.

Im left with conflicting emotions and desires. I want the USA to stop playing politics with other nations fir at the very least its own good. But I also don’t want Ukraine to be taken by force by Russia. But I also want less people to die because I don’t see Ukraine getting better after this war. And I don’t want Nuclear escalation. But I don’t want to return to 1900 style conquest theatrics.


  I would have a different opinion if the USA ran a surplus in the budget as to how generous it should be,  giving away money you do not have though....

  I imagine you are conflicted.  I am too.  I hope it gets resolved with a minimum of lost life, freedom, and property.  I think the issue with referring to 1900 conquest theatrics, is it goes back way further.  It is almost the inevitable consequence of civilization that there is war.   I remember reading Will Durant making a point about the establishment of civilization is establishing what become massive inequalities among people.  It was a point I never considered too deeply, and he made it almost 90 years ago in his first book in his Western Civilization series. 

  I think human nature is the issue with war.  Until that is changed there is always going to be conflict and a struggle (and often the struggles seem more based on wants than needs) for resources that end up culminating in wars.  So I agree on all points that it is a bad situation.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 01, 2022, 08:27:03 AM
It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 08:44:20 AM
It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.

  Yeah...the accounting on a lot of that money is dubious at best.  I do think it is pretty amazing how some of the people working over in DC can be an aide to a senator/politician and still manage to hold down 3-4 other full time jobs, often as consultants making 100k+ per year from each side gig.  Very hard working those folks.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 01, 2022, 08:53:28 AM
It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.
Are you thinking of the Clintons in Haiti?

I think that's true to a large degree, but that's because cronyism has its hands in everything. How did Biden and Pelosi get so rich? It wasn't their salaries.

But specifically regarding foreign aid, even the money that ends up on the ground and in the hands of reasonably reputable aid organizations is mostly wasted. I have friends who were involved in international humanitarian aid, and from the bribes to showing up with truckloads of supplies only to have the local mayor show up with armed guards and say "I'll take that" (hell, that sometimes happens in the US), very little gets to the people who need it. And the little that does is a pass-through, because the ruling class first took off a huge cut. Foreign aid, even with the best intentions and ostensibly for the most humanitarian of purposes, always goes to support the regime. Sending rice to North Korea just perpetuates the problem that is North Korea.

So ironically, I have less of a problem with giving countries weapons than food. It may backfire (Afghanistan anyone?), but at least it's not pretending to be anything other than an attempt to prop up/knock down a country.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 08:56:48 AM
I think the issue with referring to 1900 conquest theatrics, is it goes back way further.

But the game has changed. My internal problem with going “well wars always happen” is that wars where also always instigated and supported/ aided by foreign powers as well.

If you take away the moral argument, then the USA has done everything right. Russias economy is sabotaged, Putin is forever denied a willing Ukraine, bidens dealings are buried in ash, the citizens are distracted, and Ukraine foots the bill.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 09:09:50 AM
I think the issue with referring to 1900 conquest theatrics, is it goes back way further.

But the game has changed. My internal problem with going “well wars always happen” is that wars where also always instigated and supported/ aided by foreign powers as well.

If you take away the moral argument, then the USA has done everything right. Russias economy is sabotaged, Putin is forever denied a willing Ukraine, bidens dealings are buried in ash, the citizens are distracted, and Ukraine foots the bill.

  Oh for certain "warfare" these days is mostly winning influence with dirty money and innuendo.  Also MUCH more efficient means of spreading propaganda.   Not tanks and bombs.   And heck, once we remove the moral argument, many drug cartels down south are banging out great results from their business ventures.   I consider politicians of most nations to simply be gangsters.  My problems with any of it just do not matter.  Elections are brought up as a means of "change", but even then you get a couple choices that the powers that be vetted for you.   I guess at this point it is a race to perfect social and genetic engineering to create a more controllable human -OR- the spread of rot gets deep enough some societies collapse.  Maybe some of both. 

  And yeah Ukraine gets the bill, the thing is it is not in $$, its in blood.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 01, 2022, 09:33:06 AM
The Western countries have just upped the ante and the Doomsday Clock is another minute closer to midnight

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putins-black-belt-revoked-by-international-taekwondo-organization/ar-AAUqvyR

They took away Putin's honorary 9th dan black belt.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 01, 2022, 09:57:02 AM
It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.
Are you thinking of the Clintons in Haiti?

I think that's true to a large degree, but that's because cronyism has its hands in everything. How did Biden and Pelosi get so rich? It wasn't their salaries.

But specifically regarding foreign aid, even the money that ends up on the ground and in the hands of reasonably reputable aid organizations is mostly wasted. I have friends who were involved in international humanitarian aid, and from the bribes to showing up with truckloads of supplies only to have the local mayor show up with armed guards and say "I'll take that" (hell, that sometimes happens in the US), very little gets to the people who need it. And the little that does is a pass-through, because the ruling class first took off a huge cut. Foreign aid, even with the best intentions and ostensibly for the most humanitarian of purposes, always goes to support the regime. Sending rice to North Korea just perpetuates the problem that is North Korea.

So ironically, I have less of a problem with giving countries weapons than food. It may backfire (Afghanistan anyone?), but at least it's not pretending to be anything other than an attempt to prop up/knock down a country.
Not just the Clintons. I think a huge reason why the people keep having problems with their elected representatives is that they're already seduced by the easy money. It's like that fucking meme. 'It's free real estate!'. Except it's 'It's free money!'.

But yes. Foreign aid is prone to getting chewed apart before it even gets close to the people who need it. African nations are notorious for that shit, though it's not unique to them.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 09:58:05 AM
The Western countries have just upped the ante and the Doomsday Clock is another minute closer to midnight

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putins-black-belt-revoked-by-international-taekwondo-organization/ar-AAUqvyR

They took away Putin's honorary 9th dan black belt.

  I knew he was big into judo his whole life, but I guess that is the first time I have seen his name and TKD together.  I do not think he has ever trained even a day.  I guess that says a lot about TKD.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 01, 2022, 10:08:44 AM
The Western countries have just upped the ante and the Doomsday Clock is another minute closer to midnight

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putins-black-belt-revoked-by-international-taekwondo-organization/ar-AAUqvyR

They took away Putin's honorary 9th dan black belt.

  I knew he was big into judo his whole life, but I guess that is the first time I have seen his name and TKD together.  I do not think he has ever trained even a day.  I guess that says a lot about TKD.
More seriously, I think this feels like a combination a social credit system and you don't own anything, from the Great Reset. Sanctions should be targeted and specific, not an open-ended invitation for everyone to virtue signal by dogpiling an unpopular world figure. And if you give someone an award, supposedly for some accomplishment, you shouldn't be able to take it away, for something unrelated. Awards should be for accomplishments, not contingent on social standing. Even if it is a meaningless honorary nothing.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 10:19:14 AM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?

      It is not a whataboutism.  It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.

  So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not?   I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong.  I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.

You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 10:21:51 AM
More seriously, I think this feels like a combination a social credit system and you don't own anything, from the Great Reset. Sanctions should be targeted and specific, not an open-ended invitation for everyone to virtue signal by dogpiling an unpopular world figure. And if you give someone an award, supposedly for some accomplishment, you shouldn't be able to take it away, for something unrelated. Awards should be for accomplishments, not contingent on social standing. Even if it is a meaningless honorary nothing.

I agree. This feels repulsive. This isn't much different then shit like freedom fries and texas toast.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 01, 2022, 10:24:26 AM
Perhaps our 'top men' in the Beltway could be arsed to pay fucking attention to what people are telling them (or maybe they ARE paying attention).

https://peterbeinart.substack.com/p/bidens-cia-director-doesnt-believe?utm_source=url

Quote
Two years ago, Burns wrote a memoir entitled, The Back Channel. It directly contradicts the argument being proffered by the administration he now serves. In his book, Burns says over and over that Russians of all ideological stripes—not just Putin—loathed and feared NATO expansion. He quotes a memo he wrote while serving as counselor for political affairs at the US embassy in Moscow in 1995. ‘Hostility to early NATO expansion,” it declares, “is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.” On the question of extending NATO membership to Ukraine, Burns’ warnings about the breadth of Russian opposition are even more emphatic. “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin),” he wrote in a 2008 memo to then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. “In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.”

You want to argue that Russia is wrong? Fine. But it doesn't fucking matter, because this was something they were going to freak the fuck out about regardless of the motivations.

I can't wait for the SOTU speech tonight. Who wants to place bets on the potato going off his meds and babbling?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 10:24:53 AM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?

      It is not a whataboutism.  It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.

  So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not?   I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong.  I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.

You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.

  What is YOUR standard.  Its not what suits me.  I have one stand regarding war, and I have made it crystal clear.  I am curious as to yours.  It has a whole lot to do with the topic.  So is your answer your standard is whatever suits you?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 01, 2022, 11:37:52 AM
More seriously, I think this feels like a combination a social credit system and you don't own anything, from the Great Reset. Sanctions should be targeted and specific, not an open-ended invitation for everyone to virtue signal by dogpiling an unpopular world figure. And if you give someone an award, supposedly for some accomplishment, you shouldn't be able to take it away, for something unrelated. Awards should be for accomplishments, not contingent on social standing. Even if it is a meaningless honorary nothing.

I agree. This feels repulsive. This isn't much different then shit like freedom fries and texas toast.
Not sure I get the analogy.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 01, 2022, 11:40:14 AM
I can't wait for the SOTU speech tonight. Who wants to place bets on the potato going off his meds and babbling?
Who wants to bet that the media will quote him, but the quote will be their translation of what he really means, instead of Biden's actual words?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 11:48:06 AM
I can't wait for the SOTU speech tonight. Who wants to place bets on the potato going off his meds and babbling?
Who wants to bet that the media will quote him, but the quote will be their translation of what he really means, instead of Biden's actual words?

   I like to watch his speeches when the sign language person is there.  The hands up confused look is awesome.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on March 01, 2022, 01:31:05 PM
I agree. This feels repulsive. This isn't much different then shit like freedom fries and texas toast.
To be fair, Texas toast is it’s own thing, it wasn’t a rename of French Toast the way “Freedom Fries” was.

French Toast is bread drenched in an egg batter and fried. Texas toast is bread cut extra thick (per the line “everything is bigger in Texas”) then toasted with garlic butter and sometimes cheese.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 02:17:30 PM
To be fair, Texas toast is it’s own thing, it wasn’t a rename of French Toast the way “Freedom Fries” was.

French Toast is bread drenched in an egg batter and fried. Texas toast is bread cut extra thick (per the line “everything is bigger in Texas”) then toasted with garlic butter and sometimes cheese.

Yeah, the lady at the breakfast place just explained the difference to me. So yeah: texas toast is great.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 03:17:42 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?

      It is not a whataboutism.  It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.

  So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not?   I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong.  I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.

You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.

  What is YOUR standard.  Its not what suits me.  I have one stand regarding war, and I have made it crystal clear.  I am curious as to yours.  It has a whole lot to do with the topic.  So is your answer your standard is whatever suits you?

For WHAT? I have not argued the U.S. should intervene militarily. I am saying Russia should not be invading Ukraine over them doing literally NOTHING to Russia, and are not accused of doing anything to Russia or harboring anyone who did anything to Russia or Russian citizens. Every war event should be individually analyzed on it's own merits and there isn't some one-size-fits-all standard for everything, but on this one the reasons for the invasion are incredibly weak and it's not justified and appears to be purely opportunistic.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 01, 2022, 03:19:05 PM
The West should have made better trade deals or not overthrown the elected government to deny the Ukraine to Putin when he was offering money, not mortars.

It seems like the Ukraine government has found out what happens when you win stupid games.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 03:19:54 PM
Nobody be messing with my Texas Toast!

(https://rasamalaysia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cheesy-garlic-texas-toast1.jpg)
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 03:26:34 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?

      It is not a whataboutism.  It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.

  So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not?   I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong.  I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.

You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.

  What is YOUR standard.  Its not what suits me.  I have one stand regarding war, and I have made it crystal clear.  I am curious as to yours.  It has a whole lot to do with the topic.  So is your answer your standard is whatever suits you?

For WHAT? I have not argued the U.S. should intervene militarily. I am saying Russia should not be invading Ukraine over them doing literally NOTHING to Russia, and are not accused of doing anything to Russia or harboring anyone who did anything to Russia or Russian citizens. Every war event should be individually analyzed on it's own merits and there isn't some one-size-fits-all standard for everything, but on this one the reasons for the invasion are incredibly weak and it's not justified and appears to be purely opportunistic.

      I asked you before if every nation should adhere to the same standards the USA uses before taking military action on foreign soil.   It is a pretty clear question.  It is a yes or no question.  That said, I agree 100 percent (as I have said pages ago) Russia is in the wrong here. 
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on March 01, 2022, 03:41:30 PM
The question was to Mistwell, but for my two cents, I think it's obvious that morally there is a single standard for all countries.

The rule for invading another sovereign nation are simple. Don't do it. If country A invades country B, then they are wrong - and country B is entitled to fight back. Further, country C and country D are justified in helping country B defend itself.

Lots of countries have engaged in unjustified wars of aggression in history - including Russia, Iraq, the U.S., Britain, France, etc. None of that makes it right when another country does it.

  The USA has a stated standard for getting involved with military force on foreign soil, for legal purposes.  It is extremely thin.  Now I think the standard used is bad, and does not match your, or my moral standard.  You say one bad thing does not justify another...but the reality is if the rules to not apply to everyone, eventually they apply to no one. I suspect this is why mistwell ducks that question.

I feel this is mixing up personal stance with international standards. You have your personal standard of "no foreign wars" - but no one actually sticks to that - certainly not the U.S. I have my stance of purely defensive wars against an aggressor, but again, countries don't abide by it. If I had a magic wand to have my way, I would enforce it on all countries including the U.S. - but I don't.

---

As for what the international standard for war is in practice... Since WWII, the standard to be seen as tolerable/legitimate is that the target is seen as an aggressor in general (though they aren't necessarily invading) or "rogue state", and there be at least a broad coalition on one side, and no coalition on the other side. For example, there were people against the 2003 Iraq War (like you and me), but it was broadly accepted because:

(1) Hussein had twice engaged in aggressive wars against his neighbors (Iran and Kuwait).
(2) There were about a dozen countries signed on to invade Iraq, and no allies of Iraq.

Contrary to some claims, the Iraq War was not authorized by the U.N., but most wars haven't been. I don't like this as an international standard, but it's better than pure free-for-all like in the 19th century.

By this standard, the Russian invasion of Ukraine doesn't fit. Ukraine is not a rogue state, and has not invaded its neighbors. Its government has been accepted even by Russia - who had previously recognized the Zelensky government as the legitimate government and they had diplomatic ties with. Russia made no attempt to build a coalition against Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 03:55:01 PM
I think people here are operating from two moralities: optimal, and practical.

Optimal morality operates from 'don't hurt others, no wars, no killing' etc.
While practical operates from 'Context and situation'.
While I may be positing practical as 'smarter' practical can also just lead to no morality, so both are required.

From a optimal morality angle, Putin is the bad guy. He could have made smarter plays, and Bombing Kiev (its escalating slowly to full on destruction) is just evil.
But practical morality treats putin as a hive of wasps. It will do a thing we know from its behaviour. Don't provoke it, or some will suffer the consequences.

I don't think people operating under any of these moralities are bad. Except Socks who thinks this is a game.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 04:11:13 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?

      It is not a whataboutism.  It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.

  So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not?   I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong.  I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.

You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.

  What is YOUR standard.  Its not what suits me.  I have one stand regarding war, and I have made it crystal clear.  I am curious as to yours.  It has a whole lot to do with the topic.  So is your answer your standard is whatever suits you?

For WHAT? I have not argued the U.S. should intervene militarily. I am saying Russia should not be invading Ukraine over them doing literally NOTHING to Russia, and are not accused of doing anything to Russia or harboring anyone who did anything to Russia or Russian citizens. Every war event should be individually analyzed on it's own merits and there isn't some one-size-fits-all standard for everything, but on this one the reasons for the invasion are incredibly weak and it's not justified and appears to be purely opportunistic.

      I asked you before if every nation should adhere to the same standards the USA uses before taking military action on foreign soil.   It is a pretty clear question.  It is a yes or no question.  That said, I agree 100 percent (as I have said pages ago) Russia is in the wrong here.

And I have said consistently there is no single standard and you don't get virtue signaling points for claiming you have some philosophical one-size-fits-all standard which addresses all conceivable circumstances for war. So yeah, they should be held to the same standard, which is "Judge each event on it's own merits and circumstances."

I know the Vatican has tried to develop a Just War single standard. I'd say they have mostly failed to truly succeed in that effort. It seems like every time a war breaks out and they try to apply the standard it comes right back to the standard I just articulated. It's at best a wishy-washy vague standard.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 01, 2022, 04:32:48 PM
I think people here are operating from two moralities: optimal, and practical.

I think if we stick to two binary moralities then you would have: Oughtism and Practical
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 04:35:51 PM
I think if we stick to two binary moralities then you would have: Oughtism and Practical

This was a generalization.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 04:39:39 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?

      It is not a whataboutism.  It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.

  So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not?   I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong.  I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.

You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.

  What is YOUR standard.  Its not what suits me.  I have one stand regarding war, and I have made it crystal clear.  I am curious as to yours.  It has a whole lot to do with the topic.  So is your answer your standard is whatever suits you?

For WHAT? I have not argued the U.S. should intervene militarily. I am saying Russia should not be invading Ukraine over them doing literally NOTHING to Russia, and are not accused of doing anything to Russia or harboring anyone who did anything to Russia or Russian citizens. Every war event should be individually analyzed on it's own merits and there isn't some one-size-fits-all standard for everything, but on this one the reasons for the invasion are incredibly weak and it's not justified and appears to be purely opportunistic.

      I asked you before if every nation should adhere to the same standards the USA uses before taking military action on foreign soil.   It is a pretty clear question.  It is a yes or no question.  That said, I agree 100 percent (as I have said pages ago) Russia is in the wrong here.

And I have said consistently there is no single standard and you don't get virtue signaling points for claiming you have some philosophical one-size-fits-all standard which addresses all conceivable circumstances for war. So yeah, they should be held to the same standard, which is "Judge each event on it's own merits and circumstances."

I know the Vatican has tried to develop a Just War single standard. I'd say they have mostly failed to truly succeed in that effort. It seems like every time a war breaks out and they try to apply the standard it comes right back to the standard I just articulated. It's at best a wishy-washy vague standard.

  The United States does have a standard though.  It boils down to a reasonable belief that actors in that foreign nation pose a risk to national security.  It is vague, and easily used to allow missiles to launch into Syria or dictators to die in Libya.  That standard was even used for a massive invasion of Iraq. Toss in shitloads of outright meddling in other countries with giving "freedom fighters" (terrorists) guns, that is not the point here though.   If we use that standard Russia could try to make a case.  There should be no standard that allows a case for what Russia has done.   
       
     As for me and my personal position, it is not a virtue signal.  It is just my opinion to which I am entitled.   Just as you are fully entitled to what I assume is a Neocon position on war.
     
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 04:48:28 PM
The question was to Mistwell, but for my two cents, I think it's obvious that morally there is a single standard for all countries.

The rule for invading another sovereign nation are simple. Don't do it. If country A invades country B, then they are wrong - and country B is entitled to fight back. Further, country C and country D are justified in helping country B defend itself.

Lots of countries have engaged in unjustified wars of aggression in history - including Russia, Iraq, the U.S., Britain, France, etc. None of that makes it right when another country does it.

  The USA has a stated standard for getting involved with military force on foreign soil, for legal purposes.  It is extremely thin.  Now I think the standard used is bad, and does not match your, or my moral standard.  You say one bad thing does not justify another...but the reality is if the rules to not apply to everyone, eventually they apply to no one. I suspect this is why mistwell ducks that question.

I feel this is mixing up personal stance with international standards. You have your personal standard of "no foreign wars" - but no one actually sticks to that - certainly not the U.S. I have my stance of purely defensive wars against an aggressor, but again, countries don't abide by it. If I had a magic wand to have my way, I would enforce it on all countries including the U.S. - but I don't.

---

As for what the international standard for war is in practice... Since WWII, the standard to be seen as tolerable/legitimate is that the target is seen as an aggressor in general (though they aren't necessarily invading) or "rogue state", and there be at least a broad coalition on one side, and no coalition on the other side. For example, there were people against the 2003 Iraq War (like you and me), but it was broadly accepted because:

(1) Hussein had twice engaged in aggressive wars against his neighbors (Iran and Kuwait).
(2) There were about a dozen countries signed on to invade Iraq, and no allies of Iraq.

Contrary to some claims, the Iraq War was not authorized by the U.N., but most wars haven't been. I don't like this as an international standard, but it's better than pure free-for-all like in the 19th century.

By this standard, the Russian invasion of Ukraine doesn't fit. Ukraine is not a rogue state, and has not invaded its neighbors. Its government has been accepted even by Russia - who had previously recognized the Zelensky government as the legitimate government and they had diplomatic ties with. Russia made no attempt to build a coalition against Ukraine.

    What I want personally is never going to happen in this country as a justification for war.  The USA's standard is essentially a reasonable belief that actors in a foreign nation could pose a threat to national security.  That is thin.  Your revision of history regarding Iraq leaves out lots of key details.  Such as the support of the USA for Iraq to fight Iran.  The massive financial support from Kuwait to Iraq to pay for fighting Iran (this was where Kuwait started angle drilling to steal Iraqi oil, as they said it was debt money and they were entitled, which irritated Iraq since they did all the fighting and dying to keep Shia Iran from running all over Sunni Kuwait), as well as the massive majority of support for the war in Iraq was leveraged behind 9/11.   The Coalition you speak of, well come on man, a group of countries that relies heavily on the USA for trade, foreign aid, protection, and arms sales decided the USA was right?  Wowzers.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 01, 2022, 05:18:41 PM
The news has gotten truly weird. Most of the initial stories about heroic Ukrainian resistance, like the beauty queen taking up (Airsoft) arms, the Ghost of Kyiv (video game footage), and Snake Island (not dead), are now discredited. A lot of the reports of things like bombing children now appear to be bullshit. Fact checkers are saying things are both true and untrue (did Russia oil imports double? Headline yes, body of the text no). As a result, there's been a wave of social credit style sanctions, technical arguments are being made to try to dismiss Russia from the UN Security Council (the seat was for the USSR, not Russia), and the EU now has a resolution for admitting the Ukraine. On the counter side, they're focusing on things like a member of the Ukrainian parliament who said on Twitter she's fighting for a "New World Order", or how the president of the Ukraine made what appears to be a communist salute in a Zoom meeting with the UN.

A massive propaganda campaign including complete fabrications, and extreme partisanship and virtue signaling, all "balanced" by conspiracy theory nonsense, means there's a decided lack of objective reporting. I'm not sure the land war matters anymore, this war is being fought in social media.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 01, 2022, 07:50:08 PM
The news has gotten truly weird. Most of the initial stories about heroic Ukrainian resistance, like the beauty queen taking up (Airsoft) arms, the Ghost of Kyiv (video game footage), and Snake Island (not dead), are now discredited. A lot of the reports of things like bombing children now appear to be bullshit. Fact checkers are saying things are both true and untrue (did Russia oil imports double? Headline yes, body of the text no). As a result, there's been a wave of social credit style sanctions, technical arguments are being made to try to dismiss Russia from the UN Security Council (the seat was for the USSR, not Russia), and the EU now has a resolution for admitting the Ukraine. On the counter side, they're focusing on things like a member of the Ukrainian parliament who said on Twitter she's fighting for a "New World Order", or how the president of the Ukraine made what appears to be a communist salute in a Zoom meeting with the UN.

A massive propaganda campaign including complete fabrications, and extreme partisanship and virtue signaling, all "balanced" by conspiracy theory nonsense, means there's a decided lack of objective reporting. I'm not sure the land war matters anymore, this war is being fought in social media.

It's *all* political theater.  How come we don't see all those Ukie and Russkie troops masked up and social distancing? How is it that both Zelenskyy and Putin are members of the WEF?

The same assholes who were virtue signaling about BLM and covid jabs are the same ones urging the west into fighting.  The same ones who want to take away my 2A rights are cheering the arming of Ukrainians.

Fuck all of them - every single politician, "expert," pundit, opinionated celebrity, oligarch - they should all be thrown into one massive bonfire.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 07:52:32 PM
How is it that both Zelenskyy and Putin are members of the WEF?

While there are NWO members in the WEF, not each WEF member is part of it.

A massive propaganda campaign including complete fabrications, and extreme partisanship and virtue signaling, all "balanced" by conspiracy theory nonsense, means there's a decided lack of objective reporting. I'm not sure the land war matters anymore, this war is being fought in social media.
The most I got is aquantances on the ground and its mostly hiding in fear of explosions. There are most certainly some people dying, some things exploded, and some people scared.

From the upper middle class perspective on the groun in russia its also panic and fear. Because of the sanctions and the unpersoning of Russian people.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: DocJones on March 01, 2022, 07:53:00 PM
Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the West behind


You do have a point.....
But on the other hand...
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout.
(https://idateadvice.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Russian-girl-in-fur.jpg)

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: DocJones on March 01, 2022, 07:57:40 PM
A massive propaganda campaign including complete fabrications, and extreme partisanship and virtue signaling, all "balanced" by conspiracy theory nonsense, means there's a decided lack of objective reporting. I'm not sure the land war matters anymore, this war is being fought in social media.
I think the whole thing is a "Look there's a squirrel" operation. 
The Brandon administration pointed at this squirrel for two months, until it became real. 
Wish fulfillment for a failing administration.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 08:03:29 PM
The Brandon administration pointed at this squirrel for two months, until it became real. 
Wish fulfillment for a failing administration.

Brandon gets to raise oil prices and fund more boondoggle alternate energies. Im not against them if they work, but they are often boondoggles.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on March 01, 2022, 10:52:53 PM
In the beginning of all of this Ukraine was just some random country in Europe. But now, they are teaching the world we can still learn a thing or two.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 01, 2022, 10:53:59 PM
I think if we stick to two binary moralities then you would have: Oughtism and Practical

This was a generalization.

I think we can agree that a ternary morality system is superior.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 02, 2022, 01:31:03 AM
A massive propaganda campaign including complete fabrications, and extreme partisanship and virtue signaling, all "balanced" by conspiracy theory nonsense, means there's a decided lack of objective reporting. I'm not sure the land war matters anymore, this war is being fought in social media.
The most I got is aquantances on the ground and its mostly hiding in fear of explosions. There are most certainly some people dying, some things exploded, and some people scared.

From the upper middle class perspective on the groun in russia its also panic and fear. Because of the sanctions and the unpersoning of Russian people.
I don't doubt people are dying, and the fog of war is terrifying to anyone involved. But we're also being fed a lot of carefully curated nonsense.

Though it is really bizarre seeing the anti-gun left celebrating the arming of Ukrainian civilians. I suppose I should be used to hypocrisy at this point, and the complete lack of consistent principles, but apparently not.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 02, 2022, 02:09:49 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 02, 2022, 03:12:43 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address

Let the record show that on March 1st 2022 everything was completely under control...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 02, 2022, 07:04:21 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
How much does a pound of Ukrainian people go for these days?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 02, 2022, 10:22:40 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address

I don't know if you have access to Twitter but  found this a hilarious tweet about that:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1498845957663772672
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: HappyDaze on March 02, 2022, 10:38:32 AM
I read that the Ukrainians will not be taxed on any captured Russian military gear. That's...nice...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 10:43:09 AM
How is it that both Zelenskyy and Putin are members of the WEF?

While there are NWO members in the WEF, not each WEF member is part of it.

Maybe.  That having been said, if the WEF is such a benign organization why are they mass deleting info from their website right now?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 02, 2022, 10:55:35 AM
Maybe.  That having been said, if the WEF is such a benign organization why are they mass deleting info from their website right now?

I didn’t say it was benign. They are the closest to modern day supervillains. Im just saying many people there are not part of the plan.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 11:36:16 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address

Well, he's certainly not as eloquent as DonaAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry I tried.



Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 02, 2022, 01:10:23 PM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address

Well, he's certainly not as eloquent as DonaAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry I tried.

It’s pronounced Kievfayfay
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 01:19:45 PM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address

Well, he's certainly not as eloquent as DonaAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry I tried.


It's ok to make fun of any politician's verbal gaffes.  The difference is Trump's is a gaffe while Biden's is undeniably due to dementia.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 01:38:57 PM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address

Well, he's certainly not as eloquent as DonaAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry I tried.


It's ok to make fun of any politician's verbal gaffes.  The difference is Trump's is a gaffe while Biden's is undeniably due to dementia.


Uh-huh. Be sure and also regurgitate the talking point about how frail he is compared to the mighty Trump LMAO.



"Who ya gonna believe, me, or your lyin' eyes?" Cope harder.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 01:45:10 PM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address

Well, he's certainly not as eloquent as DonaAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry I tried.


It's ok to make fun of any politician's verbal gaffes.  The difference is Trump's is a gaffe while Biden's is undeniably due to dementia.

Poor Joe. So frail. So demented.



Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 02, 2022, 02:32:44 PM
I like how people can go from being heartbroken about the Ukrainians to arguing about which USA President is the worst in one easy step.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 02, 2022, 02:45:07 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.

Or discussing his slurred declarations.

Or anything else, really.

You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.



Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 03:48:18 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.

Or discussing his slurred declarations.

Or anything else, really.

You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.

Go ahead and post your own clip, nothing stopping you. If Biden is so impaired, it should be easy to find a comparable unedited compilation.

That first one was JUST FROM 2019.

As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.

SLAVA UKRAINI
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 02, 2022, 04:08:54 PM

As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.

Inflation is worth what? What did we get in exchange?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 04:11:33 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.

Or discussing his slurred declarations.

Or anything else, really.

You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.

Go ahead and post your own clip, nothing stopping you. If Biden is so impaired, it should be easy to find a comparable unedited compilation.

That first one was JUST FROM 2019.

As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.

SLAVA UKRAINI

Here ya go.  This is just one of many...

https://youtu.be/hHEJSALygi0
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 04:15:18 PM

As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.

Inflation is worth what? What did we get in exchange?
[/quote

It's not always about what WE get. Caring about freedom means caring about everyone's freedom, not just your own. Putin has needed to get BTFO'd for a long time. Yes, I realize there are a lot of places and people in the world who need help. But I'm not gonna WHUDDABOUT anyone's struggle for freedom and sovereignty. Ukraine is a damn good start.

As far as what we get out of it, a stronger international community and worldwide backlash against dictatorial governments is pretty cool in my book. Putin took a gamble that his campaign to weaken NATO, divide the west, and fracture democracies worldwide would pay off dividends. So far, he appears to be losing. that bet. So far.

As a bonus, people everywhere are seeing what a REAL struggle for freedom looks like. Spoiler: it ain't having to wear a mask to go to Costco.

Win-win.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 02, 2022, 04:17:36 PM
Luckily the Ghost of Kiev is there to give Putin his BTFO that no one else is man enough to do.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 04:25:13 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.

Or discussing his slurred declarations.

Or anything else, really.

You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.

Go ahead and post your own clip, nothing stopping you. If Biden is so impaired, it should be easy to find a comparable unedited compilation.

That first one was JUST FROM 2019.

As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.

SLAVA UKRAINI

Here ya go.  This is just one of many...

https://youtu.be/hHEJSALygi0

Okay, but I specifically asked for one that isn't edited. Also, this one contains outright lies. Whereas the one I posted didn't. Sorry, I figured you wouldn't be able to find a comparable clip. I was right.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/01/brit-hume/geriatrics-experts-say-brit-humes-claim-joe-biden-/
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 02, 2022, 04:32:20 PM

As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.

Inflation is worth what? What did we get in exchange?

It's not always about what WE get. Caring about freedom means caring about everyone's freedom, not just your own. Putin has needed to get BTFO'd for a long time. Yes, I realize there are a lot of places and people in the world who need help. But I'm not gonna WHUDDABOUT anyone's struggle for freedom and sovereignty. Ukraine is a damn good start.

As far as what we get out of it, a stronger international community and worldwide backlash against dictatorial governments is pretty cool in my book. Putin took a gamble that his campaign to weaken NATO, divide the west, and fracture democracies worldwide would pay off dividends. So far, he appears to be losing. that bet. So far.

As a bonus, people everywhere are seeing what a REAL struggle for freedom looks like. Spoiler: it ain't having to wear a mask to go to Costco.

Win-win.
Inflation is the cost of freedom, and inflation is what beat Putin?

<slowly backs away>
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 07:18:26 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.

Or discussing his slurred declarations.

Or anything else, really.

You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.

Go ahead and post your own clip, nothing stopping you. If Biden is so impaired, it should be easy to find a comparable unedited compilation.

That first one was JUST FROM 2019.

As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.

SLAVA UKRAINI

Here ya go.  This is just one of many...

https://youtu.be/hHEJSALygi0

Okay, but I specifically asked for one that isn't edited. Also, this one contains outright lies. Whereas the one I posted didn't. Sorry, I figured you wouldn't be able to find a comparable clip. I was right.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/01/brit-hume/geriatrics-experts-say-brit-humes-claim-joe-biden-/

Never confuse inability with laziness...  I'm sure if I cared enough, I'd find multiple non-compilations.  Hell, last night's SOTU, for one.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 02, 2022, 07:40:02 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.

Or discussing his slurred declarations.

Or anything else, really.

You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.

Go ahead and post your own clip, nothing stopping you. If Biden is so impaired, it should be easy to find a comparable unedited compilation.

That first one was JUST FROM 2019.

As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.

SLAVA UKRAINI

Here ya go.  This is just one of many...

https://youtu.be/hHEJSALygi0

Okay, but I specifically asked for one that isn't edited. Also, this one contains outright lies. Whereas the one I posted didn't. Sorry, I figured you wouldn't be able to find a comparable clip. I was right.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/01/brit-hume/geriatrics-experts-say-brit-humes-claim-joe-biden-/

Never confuse inability with laziness...  I'm sure if I cared enough, I'd find multiple non-compilations.  Hell, last night's SOTU, for one.
It's called 'he's brazenly hoping he can bullshit his way through the accusation'.

Joe Biden was never a great brain to start with. And now that his neurons are decaying into tapioca pudding, it's just getting worse.

Hey tubesnake, maybe you can get a job changing Gropey Joe's diapers when he shits them.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 02, 2022, 08:44:54 PM
Inflation is the cost of freedom, and inflation is what beat Putin?

<slowly backs away>

If your countries main export is oil and energy then you really hate inflation.
 

 :P
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 03, 2022, 06:30:29 PM
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/398075.php

Why exactly are we buying oil from Russia again?

I mean, we just can't seem to figure out how to hit them in the pocketbook. All we have to do is actually -use what we have-.

So go ahead, motherfuckers. Talk about 'treason'. Explain to me why we're buying Russian oil.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Zelen on March 03, 2022, 06:52:32 PM
What's the general tenor people have been experiencing about this conflict? Are people falling for the propaganda to instigate WW3, or are people keeping their heads?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 03, 2022, 06:55:10 PM
I find it hilarious there is a shortage of Ukraine flags because I think that flag generally sucks!

What an ironic twist to have Ukraine relevant after all these years.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
What's the general tenor people have been experiencing about this conflict? Are people falling for the propaganda to instigate WW3, or are people keeping their heads?

Based upon what I'm seeing, most are falling for it.  One has to only maintain a questioning attitude.  The problem is that most people are educated enough to parrot what they've been told but not educated enough to question what they've been told.

They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war.  It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.

One also questions why the US hasn't stopped buying Russian oil - even though it's only a few % of our imports, it's still hard currency in Putin's warchest.  Meanwhile, they're banning Russian and Belorussian cripples from the Paralympics and blocking Russian citizens' access to western media apple pay, and financial markets.  It's all just virtue signalling bullshit because it doesn't actually penalize the Russian government (only the people) and it doesn't help the Ukrainians.  Is Apple going to shut down FoxConn factories if China invades Taiwan?  Meanwhile Russians are scrambling to open up accounts with Chinese banks...

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the West doesn't give a metric fuck-ton about Ukraine beyond the ability to use them against Russia.  If the West *really* gave a shit without getting 8nvolved in another war adventure,  they'd be putting supplies onto transport planes and closing China's access to western finance - but of course Ukrainians can't be seen wielding more western hardware than the older generation Javelins that Europe has given them and we don't *really* want to disrupt Russia while the current political theater is going on...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 03, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.

This is big.

The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.

But it's just not our business.

The Elites in power have played all kinds of underhanded geopolitical games for rea$on$ that have fuck-all to do with the national security of the actual US citizenry.

They got their bluff called, and now they expect everyone to enthusiastically follow them into WW3.

Fuck that.


Let's not lose sight of the fact that the West doesn't give a metric fuck-ton about Ukraine beyond the ability to use them against Russia. ...

And as propaganda vehicle to distract the people from other issues...

(https://media.arkhaven.com/comics/series/48da6813-5d71-43c7-a2d6-f30a7c1b94af/episode/c91ae5e2-a460-4142-81c3-07394bbaa701/images/87bc42a1-6b1a-4c1c-9f7a-638ef3fa4ba6-WORLD+STAGE+300-1080w.png)

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 03, 2022, 09:42:04 PM
I'm very anti-Putin and sympathetic to the Ukrainians, but the propaganda is completely over the top and the way every nation is acting in lockstep is creepy beyond belief. Switzerland and Sweden are breaking with decades of neutrality, and Germany is actively supporting a war for the first time since what, WW2? And all this for a dubiously democratic nation nobody really cared about 2 weeks ago. This is mass media control and social credit score pressure on the national level. On the economic front they went from nah don't be silly to using the figurative nuclear option in a week. Combined with Russia's legitimate national security concerns, and how even Finland and Sweden are edging toward NATO membership as well -- do they not realize that trapping an animal in a corner with no way out is a bad idea when the animals has literal not figurative nukes? Not to mention the pressure on companies and individuals to support this war, leading to absolutely ridiculous cases of virtue signaling like banning Russian cats from cat shows, or people who are saying you can support a war by liking and sharing YouTubes and TikToks, and isn't that great?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 03, 2022, 10:12:00 PM
I agree. Well I guess this is how war will happen with the internet now. Propaganda as strong as in the 1920s.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Zelen on March 03, 2022, 10:23:17 PM
I agree. Well I guess this is how war will happen with the internet now. Propaganda as strong as in the 1920s.

Way stronger.
Worse, we let women get involved in politics now. It's not a coincidence our political scene is driven by hyperemotionalism and herd mentality.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Eirikrautha on March 03, 2022, 11:57:26 PM
I'm very anti-Putin and sympathetic to the Ukrainians, but the propaganda is completely over the top and the way every nation is acting in lockstep is creepy beyond belief. Switzerland and Sweden are breaking with decades of neutrality, and Germany is actively supporting a war for the first time since what, WW2? And all this for a dubiously democratic nation nobody really cared about 2 weeks ago. This is mass media control and social credit score pressure on the national level. On the economic front they went from nah don't be silly to using the figurative nuclear option in a week. Combined with Russia's legitimate national security concerns, and how even Finland and Sweden are edging toward NATO membership as well -- do they not realize that trapping an animal in a corner with no way out is a bad idea when the animals has literal not figurative nukes? Not to mention the pressure on companies and individuals to support this war, leading to absolutely ridiculous cases of virtue signaling like banning Russian cats from cat shows, or people who are saying you can support a war by liking and sharing YouTubes and TikToks, and isn't that great?
That's because Ukraine has been a haven for political money laundering.  US politicians, on both sides of the aisle, funnel money to Ukraine via charities and programs, only to have a portion funneled back to them or their families.  These folks aren't defending the Ukranian people; their defending their wallets...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on March 04, 2022, 07:28:05 AM
Putin is a cunt. I feel sorry for the average Russian civilian.

Unfortunately, Russia is untouchable because of its nuclear capability. Otherwise, I'd love if Nato went in smashed Putin's Warmachine back to the stone age (not that they ever would of course).

But it wouldn't be a war... More like a special operation. lol




Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Eirikrautha on March 04, 2022, 09:34:49 AM
Putin is a cunt. I feel sorry for the average Russian civilian.

Unfortunately, Russia is untouchable because of its nuclear capability. Otherwise, I'd love if Nato went in smashed Putin's Warmachine back to the stone age (not that they ever would of course).

But it wouldn't be a war... More like a special operation. lol

Russia has a million men under arms.  No mat how inept they are, a million bullets will find a few targets.   As long you volunteer to be the first across the border, then I'm fine with it.   But if you expect my kids to go without you, then I'm not so fine with your "plan"...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on March 04, 2022, 09:39:38 AM
But if you expect my kids to go without you, then I'm not so fine with your "plan"...

What plan...? My 'hypothetical' plan about intervening in Ukraine? If Putin didn't have nukes.. but he does. The Russians are untouchable. So your kids are safe. lol




Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:07:42 AM
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/398075.php

Why exactly are we buying oil from Russia again?

I mean, we just can't seem to figure out how to hit them in the pocketbook. All we have to do is actually -use what we have-.

So go ahead, motherfuckers. Talk about 'treason'. Explain to me why we're buying Russian oil.

It's a good point, and we shouldn't be. Just full stop this should have been the first thing we did. Yes we will all pay more for lots of things. So what. We can make that sacrifice. We shouldn't be buying their oil or gas. They should be cut off.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:09:37 AM
What's the general tenor people have been experiencing about this conflict? Are people falling for the propaganda to instigate WW3, or are people keeping their heads?

I don't know anyone who wants to militarily invade to oppose Russia if that's what you mean. I don't buy it's all propaganda either. That's as much bullshit spin as anything. 1000 events happen, you guys find three or four that are suspect, and spin the entire thing as if it's represented by those three or four. Meanwhile you tell us to not believe our lying eyes of constant video on the ground broadcast live from dozens of different and not related sources.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:12:45 AM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.

This is big.

The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.

But it's just not our business.

Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.

It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.

And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 10:29:12 AM
Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.

Well its a different set of ethics. No nation does anything for free or truly because of the goodness of their heart. Denying this I feel sets the path for larger abuse.
The USa has motives for getting involved in other nations, but its not because of ethics.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on March 04, 2022, 10:32:37 AM

The USa has motives for getting involved in other nations, but its not because of ethics.

Indeed... It's always self-serving while using the umbrella of 'we are so good'. Every nation does it as it's not very easy to justify a war to its people if there is no 'just cause'.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 11:14:05 AM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.

This is big.

The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.

But it's just not our business.

Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.

It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.

And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.

You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 11:17:30 AM
What's the general tenor people have been experiencing about this conflict? Are people falling for the propaganda to instigate WW3, or are people keeping their heads?

I don't know anyone who wants to militarily invade to oppose Russia if that's what you mean. I don't buy it's all propaganda either. That's as much bullshit spin as anything. 1000 events happen, you guys find three or four that are suspect, and spin the entire thing as if it's represented by those three or four. Meanwhile you tell us to not believe our lying eyes of constant video on the ground broadcast live from dozens of different and not related sources.

Because ALL the pundits/politicians and WEF operators disguissed as journalists clamoring for a no fly zone aren't clamoring for hot war with Russia...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Zelen on March 04, 2022, 12:52:37 PM
When was the last time our inept & evil rulers didn't go down the slippery slope? Lindsay Graham is openly advocating for murder of Putin. The entire Washington/EU political class are determined to turn a regional conflict (that they provoked) into a nuclear world war.

We desperately need to clean house.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 01:48:41 PM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 04, 2022, 02:03:50 PM
When was the last time our inept & evil rulers didn't go down the slippery slope? Lindsay Graham is openly advocating for murder of Putin. The entire Washington/EU political class are determined to turn a regional conflict (that they provoked) into a nuclear world war.

We desperately need to clean house.

Won’t someone rid me of this troublesome Priest?

I am sure that a general call to assassinate politicians will go exactly as well as anyone with half a brain could predict.

Unfortunately half a brain is such a high bar.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2022, 02:34:34 PM
Assassination is, of course, a political weapon. An extreme one, but it's always there.

However, Graham needs to shut the fuck up. You don't publicly pull that out and wave it around. It's as ill advised as pulling a concealed pistol and brandishing it for no reason.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 03:59:16 PM
Well demanding his assasination has killed any micro-chance of Putin stepping down. Thanks Lindsay.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on March 04, 2022, 04:22:16 PM
Well demanding his assasination has killed any micro-chance of Putin stepping down. Thanks Lindsay.
Also worth noting; he's also just justified Putin (who has always promised equivalent retaliation for what he sees as attacks on Russia) opening up the same tactic of assassination on the leadership of the Ukraine, America and NATO.

On the one hand, that's a horrific escalation. On the other hand, maybe if the elites were considered fair game and priority targets in war, they wouldn't try to start so many.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 04, 2022, 04:37:30 PM
When was the last time our inept & evil rulers didn't go down the slippery slope? Lindsay Graham is openly advocating for murder of Putin. The entire Washington/EU political class are determined to turn a regional conflict (that they provoked) into a nuclear world war.

We desperately need to clean house.

Won’t someone rid me of this troublesome Priest?

I am sure that a general call to assassinate politicians will go exactly as well as anyone with half a brain could predict.

Unfortunately half a brain is such a high bar.

Yep. For every "good" politician calling for a world leader to be assassinated, there is a world leader who could call for that politician's assassination - and make good on the threat...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on March 04, 2022, 05:31:27 PM

Well, on the bright side of World War 3, if we get a nuclear winter it will at least shut up the global warming nuts. #AlwaysLookOnTheBrightSideOfLife
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:48:33 PM
Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.

Well its a different set of ethics. No nation does anything for free or truly because of the goodness of their heart. Denying this I feel sets the path for larger abuse.
The USa has motives for getting involved in other nations, but its not because of ethics.

Isolationism at it's heart is unethical, regardless of motives for getting involved with other nations. Nobody said or implied non-isolationism is altruistic or always ethical itself. But the basic principal of isolationism is unethical.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:49:44 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.

This is big.

The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.

But it's just not our business.

Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.

It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.

And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.

You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.

Oh please do tell me about what you think is the "ONE superpower currently committing genocide." This should be good. Might reveal your spots finally.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:51:01 PM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.

No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 08:05:17 PM
Isolationism at it's heart is unethical.
Well thats a really unfair way of viewing people with different beliefs.

Well I think that goes more into your baseline beliefs about the role of government and intervention about what a person can do in day to day society. From my reading of you, you err much more on the 'interventionist' side.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: yancy on March 04, 2022, 09:33:40 PM
No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.

The only sources I've found reporting limited, local cease-fires are flagrantly biased left wing outlets like TheHill, and the Washington Post, and they're the first things that appear in a Google search, so doubtless they're all propaganda and I won't bother linking to them.

Isolationism at it's heart is unethical.

This I can help with though, I think the source here is more impartial:

https://guides.lib.uoguelph.ca/c.php?g=696372&p=4999533

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 09:41:01 PM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.

No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.

I dunno, is thewashington post a shitty source to you?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/)
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 09:43:44 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.

This is big.

The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.

But it's just not our business.

Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.

It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.

And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.

You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.

Oh please do tell me about what you think is the "ONE superpower currently committing genocide." This should be good. Might reveal your spots finally.

China, as if you didn't know.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:08:54 PM
Isolationism at it's heart is unethical.
Well thats a really unfair way of viewing people with different beliefs.

My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.

Quote
Well I think that goes more into your baseline beliefs about the role of government and intervention about what a person can do in day to day society. From my reading of you, you err much more on the 'interventionist' side.

It depends on the circumstances, for any ethical being it depends on the circumstances. If it doesn't depend on the circumstances for you because you think there are no circumstances in which you'd help your neighbor in need when you have the means to do so, then you're unethical.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:11:48 PM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.

No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.

I dunno, is thewashington post a shitty source to you?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/)

Yes. Of course it's a shitty source. Is it seriously a good source in your view?

There isn't a cease fire in Ukraine. There are some "corridors" for some people to flee, but that's not a cease fire and has never been defined as a cease fire before.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:12:38 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.

This is big.

The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.

But it's just not our business.

Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.

It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.

And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.

You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.

Oh please do tell me about what you think is the "ONE superpower currently committing genocide." This should be good. Might reveal your spots finally.

China, as if you didn't know.

Ha! I honestly didn't know. I thought you were going to say something else. But I agree with you!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 11:40:26 PM
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs."
Well all my great grandfathers died in WWII and my grandmothers mainly had to hide away in Siberia. While allot of our distant extended family was slaughtered by Nazis in mass graves (because we are jewish). So I counter your emotional put down with a put down of my own.

So let me repeat: you are being unfair to people with different beliefs. Your morality is binary and refuses to recognize nuance. Im not sure if there is any point in discussing an idea further if somebody is unwilling to even entertain the idea of them being wrong.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2022, 01:06:18 AM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.

No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.

I dunno, is thewashington post a shitty source to you?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/)

Yes. Of course it's a shitty source. Is it seriously a good source in your view?

There isn't a cease fire in Ukraine. There are some "corridors" for some people to flee, but that's not a cease fire and has never been defined as a cease fire before.

Yes captain hindsight, it's easy to be correct after the fact. You asked for sources, there's a far left source (so one that agrees with you on most things) but now you declare it a shitty one... Because you need to win and will make up anything post hoc in order to do so.

Also let me point you to a little tidbit hidden in the first word of my post: APPARENTLY

You might want to check the definition.

Anything else?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2022, 01:08:17 AM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.

This is big.

The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.

But it's just not our business.

Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.

It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.

And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.

You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.

Oh please do tell me about what you think is the "ONE superpower currently committing genocide." This should be good. Might reveal your spots finally.

China, as if you didn't know.

Ha! I honestly didn't know. I thought you were going to say something else. But I agree with you!

For at least 2 years it has been a major talking point all over the internet. But not on such far left publications as you read, so I'll grant you a MAYBE you didn't know.

My bet is you did but are a disingenuous twat.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on March 05, 2022, 02:37:39 AM
Greetings!

Well, whatever a person wants to believe about "Isolationism". ;D I think the fucking Liberal Internationalist Interventionist philosophy is evil, corrupt bullshit. You can cover all that with self-righteous back-slapping and head-petting all you want--but the fact is, it is routinely used merely as a disguise to dupe the idealistic moron sheep and to cloak the deeper, more cynical and greedy motivations of the governments and corporations involved. Being the "World's Policeman" is a fucking fool's errand. Other nations take advantage and exploit the employment of American forces and the needless sacrifice of American lives and treasure--while they sit back in comfort and security, and rake in the profits.

Fuck that.

As far as the Jews and World War II go, well, demanding that the whole world embrace global war--as tragic and evil as the oppression of Jews by the Nazis during World War II was, there are still larger and legitimate concerns that entire nations seek alternatives to global war. In that regard, Jews are nothing special. There are individual groups of peoples that are oppressed, slaughtered, and exterminated all around the world, all the time. To think that *America* is somehow morally obligated to get involved in every fucking war--and even risk global war--because some group of people somewhere are oppressed--is simply not fair, not reasonable, and not realistic. It also may not even ultimately be ethical. So, NO. America is NOT obligated to offer itself up on the butcher's table itself for every fucking people being oppressed anywhere in the world. Let some other nations--neighbors--get involved. Otherwise, well, that's fucking life. Most other nations and peoples don't give a fuck about people on the other side of the world. That's Anthropology and Psychology 101. Human Nature, circles of relationship priority, and a natural preference for the "In Group". That's also just reality.

Beyond that, as I mentioned, there are all kinds of contexts and variables involved. Whether it is the US in early World War II, or even the other Western Allies, like with Czechoslovakia and Poland--there are very real limitations in regards to finances, resources, psychology, strategy, national security interests, and basic, raw military forces. *Morally* it was terrible for Czechoslovakia, for example, to be offered up in sacrifice to the Nazi beasts. However, the Czechs noble sacrifice was not in vain. Their sacrifice provided political impetus and also crucially, *time*, for the Western Allies to eventually be victorious. Whatever moral grandstanders may like to sniff and peddle to others--the fact is, prior to 1940 and onwards, the Western Allies in particular were genuinely in no condition to seriously challenge Nazi Germany, let alone embrace a global war. Britain and France were crushingly broke financially, exhausted psychologically and politically, confused strategically, and pathetically weak militarily, compared to Nazi Germany.

Furthermore, honestly, it wasn't just the enormous overall weakness of Britain and France--the United States was even weaker than either of the Western Allies were at the time.

There is a whole lot going on during those times, and for any nation at any time--as I mentioned, many contexts, variables, and factors, that are part of hard, absolute reality, and can not simply be waved away by snapping one's fingers and declaring it must be because it is therby moral to do so.

Simplistic, binary thinking in simple, absolute terms makes for a nice moral tale--but modern warfare requires much more than moral certitude.

As for Liberal Inetrnational Interventionism, as I mentioned, that philosophy is bankrupt and riddled with absolute corruption and stupidity. Instead of *one* nation being charged with being the "World's Policeman"--I think it is much more practical to allow local nations in whatever region--handle various issues and crisis that develop in their neighborhood. If they choose not to, then that is their burden to bear. Crisis's are expectedly most imprortant and meaningul to the relevant neighborhood--if they can't be bothered to rise to the challenge of whatever--then it is unreasonable and immoral for them to always expect or demand that America from the other side of the world come in and rescue them and clean their housefull of shit. That is a basic principle observed throughout the world by most every nation--again, rooted in Antropology and Psychology 101 and basic human nature.

If that idea rubs you the wrong way--then you sign the fuck up, or get your hildren to sign the fuck up, to go and fight in Europe; in Chinafor the Uigurs against the Chinese; in the Philippines, fighting against Communist rebels and Muslim insurgents; in Southeast Asia to fight in Burma; in Central America tofight against a range of rebel forces; in Africa, to fight against various rebel forces, revolutionaries, and Muslim fanatics; in Israel, to fight against Muslims; in India, to fight against Pakistani terrorist forces; in Yemen, to fight the various Iranian and Saudi Arabian factions there.

Those are just the current hot-spots of warfare, terrorism, oppression, and slaughter going on right now, currently. Every year, or every couple of years, strife, mayhem, and war breaks out somewhere in the world, usually with a confusing mixture of agendas, history, variables, and problems, typically barrels of more bullshit for everyone involved.

Personally, I don't like it, at all. It is all terrible and tragic. But expecting America to shoulder that burden is simply unrealistic, unfair, and ultimately, unreasonable. America doesn't want to be the fucking "World's Policeman".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 05, 2022, 01:14:00 PM
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs."
Well all my great grandfathers died in WWII and my grandmothers mainly had to hide away in Siberia. While allot of our distant extended family was slaughtered by Nazis in mass graves (because we are jewish). So I counter your emotional put down with a put down of my own.

So let me repeat: you are being unfair to people with different beliefs. Your morality is binary and refuses to recognize nuance. Im not sure if there is any point in discussing an idea further if somebody is unwilling to even entertain the idea of them being wrong.

And you cut the rest of my reply to you because it responded to what you're saying in a way that made you uncomfortable. My morality is far from binary - it's the opposite. But again, you cut that part because it doesn't fit with your very narrow view of how this works.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 05, 2022, 01:15:36 PM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.

No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.

I dunno, is thewashington post a shitty source to you?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/)

Yes. Of course it's a shitty source. Is it seriously a good source in your view?

There isn't a cease fire in Ukraine. There are some "corridors" for some people to flee, but that's not a cease fire and has never been defined as a cease fire before.

Yes captain hindsight, it's easy to be correct after the fact. You asked for sources, there's a far left source (so one that agrees with you on most things) but now you declare it a shitty one... Because you need to win and will make up anything post hoc in order to do so.

Also let me point you to a little tidbit hidden in the first word of my post: APPARENTLY

You might want to check the definition.

Anything else?

I am not fat left, jackass. I am a moderate (who leans slightly right), and have never claimed sources like Washington Post are my "good" sources.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 05, 2022, 01:17:44 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.

This is big.

The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.

But it's just not our business.

Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.

It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.

And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.

You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.

Oh please do tell me about what you think is the "ONE superpower currently committing genocide." This should be good. Might reveal your spots finally.

China, as if you didn't know.

Ha! I honestly didn't know. I thought you were going to say something else. But I agree with you!

For at least 2 years it has been a major talking point all over the internet. But not on such far left publications as you read, so I'll grant you a MAYBE you didn't know.

My bet is you did but are a disingenuous twat.

Oh for F's sake, a second accusation I am far left? Let me tell yah something buddy, I am the token Republican in most places I post and hang out. Just because I think all you q-anon Trumpers are jackasses who F'ed up the GOP doesn't make me "far left".  Why did you think so many here accuse me of being a neo-con? Whatever you think of neo-cons, they're generally not interchangeable with "far left".

I ASSUMED you were going to say Israel because the last time on this very message board that someone who said the things you're saying got into this topic, that's the answer they gave.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 01:23:44 PM
And you cut the rest of my reply to you because....
That part relied on 'I have a personal emotional stake in this so shut the hell up', which is never a good point of argumentation. That betrays such a disrespect for conversation, debating the rest is pointless with you.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 05, 2022, 04:04:27 PM
And you cut the rest of my reply to you because....
That part relied on 'I have a personal emotional stake in this so shut the hell up', which is never a good point of argumentation. That betrays such a disrespect for conversation, debating the rest is pointless with you.

No, that part absolutely did not. In fact the last part was completely unrelated to the first part and involved a separate quote. The only remaining question is did you just lie and think nobody would look at the post we're talking about, or was this an honest mistake?
When I say "it depends on the circumstances" as my position, there is no rational way for you to spin that as "moral inflexibility". So I assume you're just lying to get out of a discussion at this point, but i am open to you offering a different explanation.

Here is a reminder for others (not you because I know you saw it and then cut it and tried to spin it) of what was said that you cut:

Isolationism at it's heart is unethical.
Well thats a really unfair way of viewing people with different beliefs.

My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.

Quote
Well I think that goes more into your baseline beliefs about the role of government and intervention about what a person can do in day to day society. From my reading of you, you err much more on the 'interventionist' side.

It depends on the circumstances, for any ethical being it depends on the circumstances. If it doesn't depend on the circumstances for you because you think there are no circumstances in which you'd help your neighbor in need when you have the means to do so, then you're unethical.


That's the position you called morally inflexible. My saying it depends on the circumstances. Just so everyone can see. The only opposite of that position is "there are no circumstances for which it could depend on" which goes back to the first point I made about isolationism. If you view "it depends on the circumstances" as morally inflexible, you're inherently saying there are no circumstances which you view intervention as acceptable. Which is why I said it's ironic you're the one calling my position "morally inflexible" when you've literally taken a spelled-out inflexible stance while mine is highly flexible of "it depends."
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 04:23:36 PM
Quote
You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs."

Quote
[Insert Emotional Appeal Here]

Quote
Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.

That's the position you called morally inflexible.
Yes. I just have learned over time that if somebody is utterly inflexible on certain points, and tells others to 'F yourself', its generally not worth my time engaging the point. Nothing will be accomplished.

I don't see as anybody elses efforts owed to me. I think its right to do good things, but I don't see those things as owed to me. I see isolationism and non-interventionism a valid if morally neutral aproach, not one I would do myself, but I wouldn't tell those people off for not seeing themselves as obligated to help me.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 05, 2022, 05:02:36 PM
Greetings!

Well, whatever a person wants to believe about "Isolationism". ;D I think the fucking Liberal Internationalist Interventionist philosophy is evil, corrupt bullshit. You can cover all that with self-righteous back-slapping and head-petting all you want--but the fact is, it is routinely used merely as a disguise to dupe the idealistic moron sheep and to cloak the deeper, more cynical and greedy motivations of the governments and corporations involved. Being the "World's Policeman" is a fucking fool's errand. Other nations take advantage and exploit the employment of American forces and the needless sacrifice of American lives and treasure--while they sit back in comfort and security, and rake in the profits.

Fuck that.

[snip]

Personally, I don't like it, at all. It is all terrible and tragic. But expecting America to shoulder that burden is simply unrealistic, unfair, and ultimately, unreasonable. America doesn't want to be the fucking "World's Policeman".
Well put. Glad to see you can still post something more thoughtful than commie-killing fantasies.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 05, 2022, 05:07:46 PM
Oh for F's sake, a second accusation I am far left?
No, you're not.

I'm not a big fan of your posts lately, but GB is using one of the same tactics they deride. "Everyone I don't like is alt-right/a communist". Everything is seen from an Us vs. a Monolithic Them lens, which makes it very hard to talk about positions, people, and beliefs that don't slot neatly into one of popular political narratives.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on March 05, 2022, 05:43:47 PM
Well, whatever a person wants to believe about "Isolationism". ;D I think the fucking Liberal Internationalist Interventionist philosophy is evil, corrupt bullshit. You can cover all that with self-righteous back-slapping and head-petting all you want--but the fact is, it is routinely used merely as a disguise to dupe the idealistic moron sheep and to cloak the deeper, more cynical and greedy motivations of the governments and corporations involved. Being the "World's Policeman" is a fucking fool's errand. Other nations take advantage and exploit the employment of American forces and the needless sacrifice of American lives and treasure--while they sit back in comfort and security, and rake in the profits.
Personally, I don't like it, at all. It is all terrible and tragic. But expecting America to shoulder that burden is simply unrealistic, unfair, and ultimately, unreasonable. America doesn't want to be the fucking "World's Policeman".

You're making this sound like being World Police was foisted on Americans by foreign countries and liberals - but America has generally been the one to push for more war from the mainstream of both parties - and more specifically, conservative Republican leaders like Bush have been even more hawkish than Democratic ones. Even Trump has had foreign involvement like his threats to North Korea.

There isn't  just a binary choice between America's typical war-making, and complete isolationism. There is a more reasonable middle ground. I don't think America should be urging the rest of the world to war as it has typically done, but I think it should contribute proportionally to its size and economy similar to typical other democracies like Canada or Australia. That would mean drastically cutting back our military budget and standing army, and far less wars and arms sales than has been the norm for the past several decades - but we would still be involved in peace-keeping and other military actions and economic sanctions with other countries.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 05, 2022, 06:28:40 PM
Well, whatever a person wants to believe about "Isolationism". ;D I think the fucking Liberal Internationalist Interventionist philosophy is evil, corrupt bullshit. You can cover all that with self-righteous back-slapping and head-petting all you want--but the fact is, it is routinely used merely as a disguise to dupe the idealistic moron sheep and to cloak the deeper, more cynical and greedy motivations of the governments and corporations involved. Being the "World's Policeman" is a fucking fool's errand. Other nations take advantage and exploit the employment of American forces and the needless sacrifice of American lives and treasure--while they sit back in comfort and security, and rake in the profits.
Personally, I don't like it, at all. It is all terrible and tragic. But expecting America to shoulder that burden is simply unrealistic, unfair, and ultimately, unreasonable. America doesn't want to be the fucking "World's Policeman".

You're making this sound like being World Police was foisted on Americans by foreign countries and liberals - but America has generally been the one to push for more war from the mainstream of both parties - and more specifically, conservative Republican leaders like Bush have been even more hawkish than Democratic ones. Even Trump has had foreign involvement like his threats to North Korea.
I hope you realize you just contradicted yourself. Being World Police was foisted on America by the neoliberal elite, which includes the mainstream leaders of both parties. Americans in general rarely care about other countries, except when drummed into a demagogic furor, and that rarely lasts for long.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on March 05, 2022, 08:14:05 PM
Greetings!

Well, whatever a person wants to believe about "Isolationism". ;D I think the fucking Liberal Internationalist Interventionist philosophy is evil, corrupt bullshit. You can cover all that with self-righteous back-slapping and head-petting all you want--but the fact is, it is routinely used merely as a disguise to dupe the idealistic moron sheep and to cloak the deeper, more cynical and greedy motivations of the governments and corporations involved. Being the "World's Policeman" is a fucking fool's errand. Other nations take advantage and exploit the employment of American forces and the needless sacrifice of American lives and treasure--while they sit back in comfort and security, and rake in the profits.

Fuck that.

[snip]

Personally, I don't like it, at all. It is all terrible and tragic. But expecting America to shoulder that burden is simply unrealistic, unfair, and ultimately, unreasonable. America doesn't want to be the fucking "World's Policeman".
Well put. Glad to see you can still post something more thoughtful than commie-killing fantasies.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Well, thank you, Pat! ;D

These kinds of discussions remind me of the many things I studied in my degree in Political Science--where I specialized in *International Relations*. Taking a deep dive into political machinery, political philosophy, diplomacy, and all that--it struck me, that from a more or less objective viewpoint, and at the same time affording many principle participants and political actors a measure of charity--the realization emerges that so very often in the international political arena, there are NO CLEAR MORAL CHOICES or feel-good victories. Many of the choices involved are typically between shitty and shittier. The selections are often bad, with an unavoidable menu of all parties involved getting fucked and losing--it is often just a matter of determining or trying to influence the degree of shit that different parties must deal with. These scenarios of course typically involve the US, and the US attempts to minimize the shit, and maximize any advantages or gains. The harsh political realities of these dynamics are the same to a large degree for every nation. Many scenarios are also damnably complex, with multiple competing interests and international actors, from nation-states, to individual leaders and ambassadors, Generals, and also individual corporations. Oftentimes, such political scenarios involve a mixture o some measure of shit and some measure of gain or benefit, for one party or another, or sometimes several, but it is also clear that many scenarios involve frustrating losses or poor results for several parties involved. Honestly, trying to apply self-righteous, simplistic, absolute morality in the environment of international relations is fucking laughable and fucking insane.

I'm reminded also of some studies I reviewed on the Carter Administration--where fellow Liberal Democrats and even staffers and members of Carter's administration when interviewed revealed that Carter was a sincere man that sought to often apply Christian morality and Christian principles to diplomacy and international relations--and such efforts and expectations by Carter met with constant frustration, confusion, and disappointment. The lynchpin for me was the official and advisors arguing with Carter back and forth an coming to grips with the realities that there were often no clear "Good Guys" and that many scenarios involved no one really winning and everyone being covered in shit. (Inspiring my previous commentary).

Of course, that begs the question, why can't absolute morality be applied in international politics? Well, because we do not live in a fantasy world. There are limited resources, limited money, and limitations of lives and blood. Then, there are also absolute differences in philosophy and values--and various people simply refuse to compromise on A, B, or C. When such participants are willing to fight to enforce their beliefs--or withhold their support or resources, you, your moral vision, and your grand plan--regardless of how personally morally satisfying it might be or even righteous--is fucked. In the real world, people--even political leaders and such--hold to different morals and values--or they hold largely the same morals and values as you, I, or us--but have them arranged in different priorities. That dynamic makes all the difference. You can see such dynamics involved in the debates between Interventionists and "Isolationists". Both can ascribe to morality, but order such in different priorities and weights, balancing such in a buffet-like list of objectives and goals. The harsh truth is that, depending on the scenario, either position can be right or wrong--or just as often, like my previous commentary--embracing a mix of being both good and bad at the same time.

Of course, our own moral convictions are good and critically important in many areas of life--including politics--but the fact is, insisting that political policy and foreign involvement--including embracing adventures and choices involving full-scale war--governed by a sense of absolute morality, is simply opening one's self up to absolute disaster and failure. Furthermore, since such policies are ostensibly guided and directed by such leadership embracing such--can also be hugely unethical, as such political choices are condemning millions of other people to suffer, sacrifice, and die, so that a nation state or a particular leader can enjoy a sense of moral righteousness and certitude. That's an arrogant and self-righteous position, and at the end of the day, it is difficult to avoid seeing such insistence as also a form of wickedness and evil.

International relations and foreign policy is an ugly business usually offering a range of bad choices, with very little room for absolute morality. Insisting on absolute moral policies is largely unrealistic--even if it is inspiring and makes us feel good--and often opens the door to even greater loss, humiliation, and lasting negative consequences or an even larger number of people.

International politics and foreign relations must always be pursued by intelligent, sober-minded, pragmatic individuals that keep the big pictire in mind and do not become blinded or obsessed with adherance to an unworkable absolute moral policy position.

And yes, to be honest, admitting such is not easy for me, because I as an individual embrace absolute morality in many ways. I *like* absolute morality. I like righteousness and the simple fierceeness of moral certainty! Applying such to international relations and foreign policy though, is frought with multiple dangers and often courts disaster and unforseen consequences that may be far worse than a more pragmatic approach would ensure.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on March 05, 2022, 10:33:05 PM
Regarding Interventionism… I don’t think failing to intervene is inherently evil because things are rarely that clear-cut. Just running into a hostage situation with guns blazing and no idea who is who and where they are is intervention… but it’s stupid and will likely get at least some of the very people you’re supposed to be trying to save killed; possibly even by you as one of them pops up from cover to run for the exit and had the misfortune of wearing a black coat while the hostage takers were wearing black hoodies.

Rather, the moral standard for intervention should be a bit like that of a doctor’s oath… “Don’t cause more problems than you’re trying to solve.”

You say we should intervene in Ukraine? Okay, tell us how. Tell us what is hoped to be gained. Tell us the expected costs. Tell us the realistic case and worst case consequences. If the outlined plan doesn’t make things worse, it’s something I’m amenable to. If it’s just “send over a bunch of our soldiers over to drag us all into WW3” then I suggest booking yourself a flight over there and volunteering for the front line first.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 06, 2022, 04:33:10 AM
Of course, our own moral convictions are good and critically important in many areas of life--including politics--but the fact is, insisting that political policy and foreign involvement--including embracing adventures and choices involving full-scale war--governed by a sense of absolute morality, is simply opening one's self up to absolute disaster and failure. Furthermore, since such policies are ostensibly guided and directed by such leadership embracing such--can also be hugely unethical, as such political choices are condemning millions of other people to suffer, sacrifice, and die, so that a nation state or a particular leader can enjoy a sense of moral righteousness and certitude. That's an arrogant and self-righteous position, and at the end of the day, it is difficult to avoid seeing such insistence as also a form of wickedness and evil.
It's the problem with socialism. Or any large centralized government. It's arrogant to assume you can choose for so many people, and to force them to your will, and it becomes murderously arrogant in practice.

It's the distance that makes it so monstrous. It's hard to turn on your friends, or neighbors, without outside pressure. But it's easy if everyone else is doing it, and you feel like you have no choice, or they'll turn on you as well. Genocide and totalitarian control walk hand in grisly hand.

The gray is what allows it to happen. No good choices, so you might as well make the most convenient one. This is why leaders become corrupt, because if everything's bad, why not pad your pockets, and help your allies, and pull a few strings or break a few rules to stay in power, because it might as well be you, right? It's also why the populace in general goes along, when tyrants spring up like weeds in a vast bureaucracy; because it's safer, more comfortable. Though of course it's even more insidious than that, because one excuse leads to another, and one hard choice makes the next one even easier. Over time, the moral window shifts to a gray that's nigh indistinguishable from black.

Free, small, and local is the only solution.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 06, 2022, 11:39:47 AM
Quote
You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs."

Quote
[Insert Emotional Appeal Here]

Quote
Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.

That's the position you called morally inflexible.
Yes. I just have learned over time that if somebody is utterly inflexible on certain points, and tells others to 'F yourself', its generally not worth my time engaging the point. Nothing will be accomplished.

I don't see as anybody elses efforts owed to me. I think its right to do good things, but I don't see those things as owed to me. I see isolationism and non-interventionism a valid if morally neutral aproach, not one I would do myself, but I wouldn't tell those people off for not seeing themselves as obligated to help me.

Wow you actually went into the re-quote and cut more out but left it as if that was the quote without mentioning you had done that. What a lying fuck you are. I totally misread you. Huh
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 06, 2022, 11:41:33 AM
Oh for F's sake, a second accusation I am far left?
No, you're not.

I'm not a big fan of your posts lately, but GB is using one of the same tactics they deride. "Everyone I don't like is alt-right/a communist". Everything is seen from an Us vs. a Monolithic Them lens, which makes it very hard to talk about positions, people, and beliefs that don't slot neatly into one of popular political narratives.

I hate it when you're reasonable Pat. You make me have to consider if I've been unreasonable towards you, and that's uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 06, 2022, 11:44:42 AM
Regarding Interventionism… I don’t think failing to intervene is inherently evil because things are rarely that clear-cut. Just running into a hostage situation with guns blazing and no idea who is who and where they are is intervention… but it’s stupid and will likely get at least some of the very people you’re supposed to be trying to save killed; possibly even by you as one of them pops up from cover to run for the exit and had the misfortune of wearing a black coat while the hostage takers were wearing black hoodies.

Rather, the moral standard for intervention should be a bit like that of a doctor’s oath… “Don’t cause more problems than you’re trying to solve.”

You say we should intervene in Ukraine? Okay, tell us how. Tell us what is hoped to be gained. Tell us the expected costs. Tell us the realistic case and worst case consequences. If the outlined plan doesn’t make things worse, it’s something I’m amenable to. If it’s just “send over a bunch of our soldiers over to drag us all into WW3” then I suggest booking yourself a flight over there and volunteering for the front line first.

I agree with you. To put it coldly, it's a cost benefit analysis first. Will intervention result in more harm than benefit to the world is the first question. The second question is whether intervention is morally justified in itself. But if you're going to end up with WW3 out of it, then the first question says you don't militarily intervene even if it would be morally just to do so, and you find other ways to help short of military intervention.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 06, 2022, 11:48:31 AM
This is an interesting translation of an article on what Russian officials seem to think of this war (https://ilyalozovsky.substack.com/p/what-russian-officials-think-of-the?s=r).  It's a translation of a March 1 report by Farida Rustamova, a well-connected Russian journalist with  deep sourcing in top levels of the Russian government.

The short of it is it seems like most Russian officials did not think they were going to war, and only thought they were supporting the break-away territories with a vote or voice of support. That Russian forces were suddenly outside of Kyiv was as much a shock as it was to everyone else. And many are pissed about it, and also afraid to speak out.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 07, 2022, 12:04:16 AM
Of course, our own moral convictions are good and critically important in many areas of life--including politics--but the fact is, insisting that political policy and foreign involvement--including embracing adventures and choices involving full-scale war--governed by a sense of absolute morality, is simply opening one's self up to absolute disaster and failure. Furthermore, since such policies are ostensibly guided and directed by such leadership embracing such--can also be hugely unethical, as such political choices are condemning millions of other people to suffer, sacrifice, and die, so that a nation state or a particular leader can enjoy a sense of moral righteousness and certitude. That's an arrogant and self-righteous position, and at the end of the day, it is difficult to avoid seeing such insistence as also a form of wickedness and evil.
It's the problem with socialism. Or any large centralized government. It's arrogant to assume you can choose for so many people, and to force them to your will, and it becomes murderously arrogant in practice.

It's the distance that makes it so monstrous. It's hard to turn on your friends, or neighbors, without outside pressure. But it's easy if everyone else is doing it, and you feel like you have no choice, or they'll turn on you as well. Genocide and totalitarian control walk hand in grisly hand.

The gray is what allows it to happen. No good choices, so you might as well make the most convenient one. This is why leaders become corrupt, because if everything's bad, why not pad your pockets, and help your allies, and pull a few strings or break a few rules to stay in power, because it might as well be you, right? It's also why the populace in general goes along, when tyrants spring up like weeds in a vast bureaucracy; because it's safer, more comfortable. Though of course it's even more insidious than that, because one excuse leads to another, and one hard choice makes the next one even easier. Over time, the moral window shifts to a gray that's nigh indistinguishable from black.

Free, small, and local is the only solution.

All well and good until the guys with the large, centralized government steamroll you while your local guys are trying to get support from the other local guys.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 07, 2022, 12:10:39 AM
All well and good until the guys with the large, centralized government steamroll you while your local guys are trying to get support from the other local guys.

There are plenty of small places surviving beside large centralised governments that are not being steamrolled.

Take a random country like Afghanistan for example.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 07, 2022, 01:35:36 AM
All well and good until the guys with the large, centralized government steamroll you while your local guys are trying to get support from the other local guys.

There are plenty of small places surviving beside large centralised governments that are not being steamrolled.

Take a random country like Afghanistan for example.
Widespread gun ownership works.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 07, 2022, 10:17:08 AM
The *one* good thing about this debacle is it is allowing me to proceed with development of my Twilight:2025 timeline (basically, taking Twilight:2013's rules set, cleaning it up, integrating the supplements, and advancing a more realistic timeline)...  :o
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: HappyDaze on March 07, 2022, 01:52:31 PM
The *one* good thing about this debacle is it is allowing me to proceed with development of my Twilight:2025 timeline (basically, taking Twilight:2013's rules set, cleaning it up, integrating the supplements, and advancing a more realistic timeline)...  :o
What you call "good" is more like "opportunistic, insensitive, and in bad taste." But you do you.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 07, 2022, 10:21:51 PM
This may be an emotional gut reaction after seeing images of places I actully know reduced to rubble but:
Maybe people would be less worried about Russia in regards to national security if Putin didn't demonstrate himself to be the absolutely unstable psychopath everybody accused him of.

I don't care how tiny of a dick that man has, none of this 'security concern' justifies what he is doing. 'Security Concerns' aren't going to foot the bill for the funarals the man has caused, let alone the infrastructure that will ensure Ukraine remains a ruin for a generation. You don't get the moral highground of needing a human shield so you grab a baby from a basket.
The entire effort is now 100% self-defeating. Every further act of demolition will now just further rile up NATO, and get everybody else to invest further into military spending.
And in terms of economical development, Russia is set back 30 years. Nobody is gonna want to go to 'KGB-town' for tourism in the near future.

And lets say you fully subjegate Ukraine. You gonna leave a military presence in a country the size of Texas for the next 10-20 years? Or will you be happy letting them be as a empty husk that would cheer at NATO going through its borders?

And have the fucking balls to call what your doing a fucking war you COWARD!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 07, 2022, 10:56:42 PM
This may be an emotional gut reaction after seeing images of places I actully know reduced to rubble but:
Maybe people would be less worried about Russia in regards to national security if Putin didn't demonstrate himself to be the absolutely unstable psychopath everybody accused him of.

I don't care how tiny of a dick that man has, none of this 'security concern' justifies what he is doing. 'Security Concerns' aren't going to foot the bill for the funarals the man has caused, let alone the infrastructure that will ensure Ukraine remains a ruin for a generation. You don't get the moral highground of needing a human shield so you grab a baby from a basket.
The entire effort is now 100% self-defeating. Every further act of demolition will now just further rile up NATO, and get everybody else to invest further into military spending.
And in terms of economical development, Russia is set back 30 years. Nobody is gonna want to go to 'KGB-town' for tourism in the near future.

And lets say you fully subjegate Ukraine. You gonna leave a military presence in a country the size of Texas for the next 10-20 years? Or will you be happy letting them be as a empty husk that would cheer at NATO going through its borders?

And have the fucking balls to call what your doing a fucking war you COWARD!
I don't think anybody has said security concerns justify what Putin did. What I said, and I believe others did as well, is that Putin has some legitimate concerns about NATO's expansion. Potentially existential concerns, because he sees NATO as a military threat, and they're bigger, growing, and heading toward an even bigger footprint on his doorstep. That's bad, because it means Putin feels like a cornered dog. And cornered dogs are dangerous. That's why Putin is acting like the unstable psychopath, as you say.

This is something the West could have prevented, with pragmatic geopolitics and some concessions. The absolute worst thing they could do is escalate things, by publicly humiliating Putin, imposing sanctions that could cause an economic collapse, and turning his people against him, because that doesn't just threaten Russia's borders, it threatens Putin himself and makes it hard for him to trust anyone, thus making him even more erratic and unstable.

Oh wait, that's exactly what the West did.

I don't think we're at the nuclear precipice, but I think this could easily go down in history as a series of calamitous mistakes. Of course we could get lucky, and Putin might vanish in a coup. But it's a really bad idea to rely on that kind of dumb luck.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 07, 2022, 11:42:25 PM
That's why Putin is acting like the unstable psychopath, as you say.
At this point I have run out of any shred of respect I had for this dictator even from a pragmatic 'best of a bad lot' sort of way. What he is doing right now, in killing people, and demanding they thank him for it. Oh boo hoo, the dictator with a secret police feels like a cornered dog. Il be sure to send him a get well card.
The problem with dictators is that due to their rule being always based on a perpetual power balancing act, they cannot step down without fear of murder. So they have to retain power even as their faculties diminish and they feel unhealthy and weak. And as that happens the circle of trust shinks and they start to buy their own hype and enter delusions. Delusions like offering amnesty to refugees IN RUSSIA.

And I truly believed he wouldn't do something like this because its INSANE. I thought he was better then this. Better then what he was doing. That if even he did a war, it would at least be surgical and fast. But it has become brutality pretty quickly.

What concessions could be given to him to prevent this.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 07, 2022, 11:51:02 PM
What concessions could be given to him to prevent this.
Putin's biggest concern was the Ukraine joining NATO.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 12:07:58 AM
Putin's biggest concern was the Ukraine joining NATO.

I know this is in many ways the Wests fault. Putin was getting buddy buddy with Ukraine, so the West tipped the table over so Putin thinks he can't play fair.
Then assasinate the President. Cause a civil war, maybe even bomb the parliment. The Ukraine president is a fuckwit authoritarian, so I hope he gets killed. But what is happening right now is delusion. And because his unfair play isn't getting the results he wanted, the bombings will continue until moral improves. This sort of action to me displays a fundemental instability. I find this means it would be a matter of 'When' not 'If' for these sorts of stuff to occur.
Ukraine paradoxically depended on Russia allot for an export market. Maybe threaten that with sanctions if you decide to join NATO.

But Putin is also a ex-KGB member with very unreasonable dreams about a return to empire. The State of russia as a whole is just...Too big for no reason. Maybe become a place that doesn't have a negative birth-rate first.

Edit/ TLDR: If the man was delusional enough to think that he could make a personal appeal to the military, and they would overthrow the current regieme and run into his arms and the citizens would throw a parade - what would discourage him from doing this NATO or no NATO?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 08, 2022, 12:31:11 AM
Putin's biggest concern was the Ukraine joining NATO.

I know this is in many ways the Wests fault. Putin was getting buddy buddy with Ukraine, so the West tipped the table over so Putin thinks he can't play fair.
Then assasinate the President. Cause a civil war, maybe even bomb the parliment. The Ukraine president is a fuckwit authoritarian, so I hope he gets killed. But what is happening right now is delusion. And because his unfair play isn't getting the results he wanted, the bombings will continue until moral improves. This sort of action to me displays a fundemental instability. I find this means it would be a matter of 'When' not 'If' for these sorts of stuff to occur.
Ukraine paradoxically depended on Russia allot for an export market. Maybe threaten that with sanctions if you decide to join NATO.

But Putin is also a ex-KGB member with very unreasonable dreams about a return to empire. The State of russia as a whole is just...Too big for no reason. Maybe become a place that doesn't have a negative birth-rate first.
Russia's a weird place. I don't think many people in the world, except maybe people who have traveled widely across the US and Canada, can really appreciate how big it is.

Upheaval in Russia could throw the entire Eurasian supercontinent into turmoil. Imagine Russia losing Primorsky Krai to China, for instance. And that's 6,000 miles away as the Transiberian Railroad chugs.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 08, 2022, 02:35:01 AM
Edit/ TLDR: If the man was delusional enough to think that he could make a personal appeal to the military, and they would overthrow the current regieme and run into his arms and the citizens would throw a parade - what would discourage him from doing this NATO or no NATO?

Nothing. It seems like this was always the plan from before the build up of forces along the border, and he only 'asked for everything and more' knowing any answer would almost certainly be no.

Now would be a great time for Chechnya to give breaking away another shot.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Wrath of God on March 08, 2022, 07:24:04 AM
The problem with Chechenya is simple - most of both democratic and islamic rebels were killed or forced to emigrate (there is for instance quite soilid Chechen mafia in Western Europe from what I heard). And Chechenyans get basically nation-state from Putin in exchange for feudal military alliance. Wars and later Kadyrow politics drow Russians from Chechenya - and in 60's they were majority there (because Stalin banished all Chechens to Central Asia as he seen them untrustworthy).

So nowadays Chechenyans are like in best shape probably since Imperial Russian conquest of Caucasus, and they are in this shape thanks to alliance with Putin. They are warlike nation, they can accept I think being beaten into alliance by powerful warlord, and they will have no qualms to fight in his armies.

Although as it's warlike clannish society then Kadyrow probably have quite a lot personal and family enemies, that could use this fuck-up to try overpower him, more for sake of local power, than alliance with Russia.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 07:53:24 AM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/russia-says-it-is-ready-to-stop-invasion-in-a-moment-if-ukraine-meets-conditions

It looks like Putin realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew, finally. Note that there's no demand for a change in government, which you would think Putin would want (so he could install a puppet, natch).

I don't think Ukraine can hold out forever, though they can, in the immortal words of Hot Rod in Transformers, give them one humongous repair bill. Worse, though, is that Russian military doctrine for FISH (fighting in someone's house, i.e. urban combat) is to just shell it into rubble. So it might be for the best to take the offer (granted, I don't live in Ukraine, so they might think differently).

The downside is that the Biden regime will duly trot this out as a foreign policy win, alongside letting Iran get nukes. And continue to buy Russian oil, of course.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on March 08, 2022, 08:30:54 AM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/russia-says-it-is-ready-to-stop-invasion-in-a-moment-if-ukraine-meets-conditions

It looks like Putin realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew, finally. Note that there's no demand for a change in government, which you would think Putin would want.
I hate to break it to you, but that’s actually an escalation from Putin’s initial demands.

Putin didn’t call for regime change in his initial demands either… he demanded disarmament and neutrality in accord with a prior treaty (regime change only came up as “if necessary to achieve our goals”).

Now he’s demanding a change to their constitution to keep them out of NATO and recognition of his seizure of Crimea and independence of the Donbass region.

So, regardless of what our media is saying, Putin either believes he’s winning or at least is using a traditional negotiating from strength tactic of turning up the pain with each refusal to comply. That could be a bluff, but regardless, he’s acting like someone who thinks he’s winning.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 09:23:20 AM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/russia-says-it-is-ready-to-stop-invasion-in-a-moment-if-ukraine-meets-conditions

It looks like Putin realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew, finally. Note that there's no demand for a change in government, which you would think Putin would want.
I hate to break it to you, but that’s actually an escalation from Putin’s initial demands.

Putin didn’t call for regime change in his initial demands either… he demanded disarmament and neutrality in accord with a prior treaty (regime change only came up as “if necessary to achieve our goals”).

Now he’s demanding a change to their constitution to keep them out of NATO and recognition of his seizure of Crimea and independence of the Donbass region.

So, regardless of what our media is saying, Putin either believes he’s winning or at least is using a traditional negotiating from strength tactic of turning up the pain with each refusal to comply. That could be a bluff, but regardless, he’s acting like someone who thinks he’s winning.
Did you just skip past the rest of the post I made? I conceded that I didn't think Ukraine could win this.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on March 08, 2022, 10:33:07 AM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/russia-says-it-is-ready-to-stop-invasion-in-a-moment-if-ukraine-meets-conditions

It looks like Putin realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew, finally. Note that there's no demand for a change in government, which you would think Putin would want.
I hate to break it to you, but that’s actually an escalation from Putin’s initial demands.

Putin didn’t call for regime change in his initial demands either… he demanded disarmament and neutrality in accord with a prior treaty (regime change only came up as “if necessary to achieve our goals”).

Now he’s demanding a change to their constitution to keep them out of NATO and recognition of his seizure of Crimea and independence of the Donbass region.

So, regardless of what our media is saying, Putin either believes he’s winning or at least is using a traditional negotiating from strength tactic of turning up the pain with each refusal to comply. That could be a bluff, but regardless, he’s acting like someone who thinks he’s winning.
Did you just skip past the rest of the post I made? I conceded that I didn't think Ukraine could win this.
I didn’t miss it. I was disagreeing with your assessment that Putin realizes he’s bitten off more than he chew. Your assertion seemed to be that his asking for those terms was a sign of him backing off from his initial goals, but their actually ratcheted up from his initial goals, which suggests the opposite… that he’s confident he can chew on this (or is at least bluffing that he can).
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 10:43:00 AM
So, regardless of what our media is saying, Putin either believes he’s winning or at least is using a traditional negotiating from strength tactic of turning up the pain with each refusal to comply. That could be a bluff, but regardless, he’s acting like someone who thinks he’s winning.
Well he can't actually act as somebody who thinks he is loosing. He is a dictator, and showing weakness is a path to death.

I personally believe he acts as somebody who is out of touch. If you have to rapidly up internal security in the nation as any sort of international buisness flees for the foreseable future as you have to send in KGB to aprehend their computers, that doesn't speak to me of a situation that has really given him anything.
Ukraine has already lost in any long-term aspect, but any victory Putin gains will be phyrric. Its already all for nothing effectively. Soldiers dying in Russia is just as unpopular in the US (thats why he allows for a provision for mass graves to cover this stuff up).

From my perspective he is 'going all in' effectively. If Ukraine was toppled in 3 days, he could get a win out of this and pose to the cameras. But now he has a ton of resources stuck there, he can't really take any of them back without looking weak and garunteeing that Ukraine joins Nato.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 08, 2022, 12:39:06 PM
A different take that doesn't follow the usual narrative being blasted out by the Media Propaganda shills, the network these clips are from is generally just as bad an offender as any of the others:

3-2-2022



3-4-2022



3-7-2022
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 08, 2022, 01:01:30 PM
Another counterpoint to Hannity's neocon shilling...

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: DocJones on March 08, 2022, 06:15:39 PM
What concessions could be given to him to prevent this.
Putin's biggest concern was the Ukraine joining NATO.
No it's all about Ukraine oil and gas.  Russia wants all of it. 
Putin believes the west and NATO to be feckless. 
Unfortunately, he may be right about that.
When you look at his potential successors, they are as conservative as he is.



Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 08, 2022, 06:32:07 PM
What concessions could be given to him to prevent this.
Putin's biggest concern was the Ukraine joining NATO.
No it's all about Ukraine oil and gas.  Russia wants all of it. 
Putin believes the west and NATO to be feckless. 
Unfortunately, he may be right about that.
When you look at his potential successors, they are as conservative as he is.

It sure is a mystery how Ukraine has so many resources on one hand and is so poor on the other hand.

Cant even boost the economy by giving stacks of cash to Biden and running US Bioweapon Labs on the side.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
It sure is a mystery how Ukraine has so many resources on one hand and is so poor on the other hand.

Corruption and a lack of national identity. This is why cultural ties are so important.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 08, 2022, 07:30:38 PM
An interesting thought.

Poland has offered to give the US all their MIG-29s to transfer to the Ukraine.  Who provides spare parts when they fail or are damaged in combat?  Is there a depot in the Ukraine or is all the supply chain for a Russian-designed aircraft still in Russia?  The parent company of the former MiG is owned by the Russian government.

Another interesting thought.

All those western companies virtue signalling by closing up operations in Russia? You can pretty much expect they'll never operate there again - to the chagrin of shareholders...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 08, 2022, 07:36:57 PM
It sure is a mystery how Ukraine has so many resources on one hand and is so poor on the other hand.

Corruption and a lack of national identity. This is why cultural ties are so important.

So who is to blame for the Ukrainian corrupt officials that decided not to take a large enough skim of the money laundering by corrupt western officials!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 08, 2022, 10:00:03 PM

It sure is a mystery how Ukraine has so many resources on one hand and is so poor on the other hand.

I'd like to introduce to South America, Africa, and most of Eastern Europe.

Corruption and broken institutions are the norm, not the exception. It's one of the key reasons why the US is still so competitive, despite shooting itself in the foot so many times. Other countries are typically much worse when it comes to corruption, rule of law, trust, and the other basics that underlie a thriving economy.

To reference SB's comment, if it helps forge a national identity, there's a chance this war might have some positive effects for Ukraine in the long run.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 10:10:50 PM
Corruption and broken institutions are the norm, not the exception. It's one of the key reasons why the US is still so competitive, despite shooting itself in the foot so many times. Other countries are typically much worse when it comes to corruption, rule of law, trust, and the other basics that underlie a thriving economy.
Pretty much. Its like magic.

Quote
To reference SB's comment, if it helps forge a national identity, there's a chance this war might have some positive effects for Ukraine in the long run.

I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 08, 2022, 10:53:54 PM

I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 08, 2022, 11:15:36 PM

I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.

You mean like West Taiwan?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 08, 2022, 11:35:00 PM

I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.

You mean like West Taiwan?
That's my favorite.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 09, 2022, 03:13:30 AM
Corruption and a lack of national identity. This is why cultural ties are so important.
National identity got a big boost after the invasion and annexation of Crimea and the machinations of Putin in Donbas since. Some Pro-Russia Ethnic Russians (not all ethnic Russian Ukrainians are supportive of Russia) aren't happy with the push towards a Ukrainian identity and language but that hasn't been sufficient to stop changes in government there.

Ukraine still has a corruption problem, but it has improved quite a bit in the meantime.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Wrath of God on March 09, 2022, 09:00:49 AM
Quote
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.

This. (TBH If they want to go very Trad - They should rename themselves as Princedom of Rus with Great Princedom of Kiev being main province).

Quote
I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.

Ukraine as sense of separate nationality for Crown Rusyans exists about from XIX century? Before that there was generally one Rusyan identity in ethnic terms with different state identities. That's why Belarus for instance use Great Duchy of Lithuania symbolics, because one of aspects of Lukashenko policy is portraying Belarus as successor to GDL.
And Russia held Ukraine proper (ergo Great Princedom of Kiev, and Princedom of Chernihov) for about 300 years (including Soviet times). For most of this part it was simply part of Russia without any buffer state qualities.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 09, 2022, 05:33:30 PM
More to chew on in the vein of THERE ARE NO WHITE HATS HERE...

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 09, 2022, 10:10:11 PM
More to chew on in the vein of THERE ARE NO WHITE HATS HERE...



Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."

It's a cowardly and lazy position.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 09, 2022, 11:03:54 PM
...
Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."

It's a cowardly and lazy position.

LOL... Can you make it any more obvious that you didn't watch the video!  The guy speaking is far from a fan of Putin.

And ROTFL at a few bad acts by all sides...

More disingenuous words of a warmongering shill that still thinks 'Team America World Police' is a good idea.

I'm applying the same standards to everyone involved.


You're the one spouting puerile nonsense like this:

My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
...

That is nothing less than a horrific emotionally driven appeal for perpetual war.

George Washington spoke with Great Wisdom:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
Quote
...
   Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
   The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.
   Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality, we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.
   Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice? ...


Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?

Because this is what following the ideal of “X could have been prevented sooner.” really means:

Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".

But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao…

There was the Holodomor of 1932 to 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Where the Russian Commies committed mass genocide and killed around 3.5 million Ukrainians by starving them to death.

Then Stalin was all like: “Yes, not a bad start comrades, but I know that I can do better…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#:~:text=In%202011%2C%20after%20assessing%20twenty,policies%20are%20taken%20into%20account.

Soviet Gulags: 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.
The Soviet famine of 1932–1933: Add another 2-6 million dead on top of the Holodomor.
Judicial executions for political charges from 1929–53: According to official figures there were 777,975.
The Soviet famine of 1946–1947: An estimated 1 to 1.5 million lives lost.
Population transfer by the Soviet Union: The reported number of kulaks and their relatives who had died in labour colonies from 1932 to 1940 was 389,521.
According to Soviet archives, the heaviest mortality rate was documented in people from the Northern Caucasus (the Chechens, Ingush) with 144,704 deaths, or 24.7% of the entire deported population, as well as 44,125 deaths from Crimea, or a 19.3% mortality rate.
Katyn massacre: The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000.
Number of deaths of people by Stalinism, 1924–1953: Total estimated at somewhere around 7,231,000–9,551,000

Then Mao Zedong was all like: “Not bad for a bunch of round-eyed barbarians; here, hold my tea…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
From 1958 to 1962. Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes. Mao decreed that efforts to multiply grain yields and bring industry to the countryside should be increased. Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting non-existent "surpluses" and leaving farmers to starve.
Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million.

The Greatest Mass Murder in History
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/

Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge in Cambodia didn’t want to be left behind, and they did the best that they could:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
By January 1979, 1.5 to 2 million people had died due to the Khmer Rouge's policies.

Then the Rwandan’s had their day in the Sun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
The most widely accepted scholarly estimates are around 500,000 to 800,000 Tutsi deaths.

And the list goes on…

Just go HERE: Genocides in history (after World War II)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(after_World_War_II)

Funnily enough they don’t list that one time starting in 2003 that the American Military killed 100 to 200,000 Iraqi civilians for no reason whatsoever.

Because: “WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ!”


And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the “Ethical” thing to do...

Making ourselves the World Police because: “Isolationism is unethical.” Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.

The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been…
 
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.


And Millions of innocent Ukrainian civilians are being fucked over because foreign nations on a power trip against each other can't keep it in their pants.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

So we need to send weapons to Ukraine and arm all the Neo-Nazis... Wait what?

(Not saying Russia is in the right here, just pointing out things aren't Black&White and probably there's no White Hats here.)

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM


It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 01:12:25 PM
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.

Id say they had mor public prominence (for a while) then in Russia or United States. But does a bunch of neo-nazis larping in the forest justify shelling civilian sections?
If you didn't want to arm Ukraine there are much much much better reasons then 'A micro segment of the population are neo-nazis'.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:15:24 PM
...
Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."

It's a cowardly and lazy position.

LOL... Can you make it any more obvious that you didn't watch the video!  The guy speaking is far from a fan of Putin.

And ROTFL at a few bad acts by all sides...

More disingenuous words of a warmongering shill that still thinks 'Team America World Police' is a good idea.

I'm applying the same standards to everyone involved.


You're the one spouting puerile nonsense like this:

My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
...

That is nothing less than a horrific emotionally driven appeal for perpetual war.

George Washington spoke with Great Wisdom:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
Quote
...
   Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
   The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.
   Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality, we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.
   Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice? ...


Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?

Because this is what following the ideal of “X could have been prevented sooner.” really means:

Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".

But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao…

There was the Holodomor of 1932 to 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Where the Russian Commies committed mass genocide and killed around 3.5 million Ukrainians by starving them to death.

Then Stalin was all like: “Yes, not a bad start comrades, but I know that I can do better…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#:~:text=In%202011%2C%20after%20assessing%20twenty,policies%20are%20taken%20into%20account.

Soviet Gulags: 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.
The Soviet famine of 1932–1933: Add another 2-6 million dead on top of the Holodomor.
Judicial executions for political charges from 1929–53: According to official figures there were 777,975.
The Soviet famine of 1946–1947: An estimated 1 to 1.5 million lives lost.
Population transfer by the Soviet Union: The reported number of kulaks and their relatives who had died in labour colonies from 1932 to 1940 was 389,521.
According to Soviet archives, the heaviest mortality rate was documented in people from the Northern Caucasus (the Chechens, Ingush) with 144,704 deaths, or 24.7% of the entire deported population, as well as 44,125 deaths from Crimea, or a 19.3% mortality rate.
Katyn massacre: The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000.
Number of deaths of people by Stalinism, 1924–1953: Total estimated at somewhere around 7,231,000–9,551,000

Then Mao Zedong was all like: “Not bad for a bunch of round-eyed barbarians; here, hold my tea…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
From 1958 to 1962. Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes. Mao decreed that efforts to multiply grain yields and bring industry to the countryside should be increased. Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting non-existent "surpluses" and leaving farmers to starve.
Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million.

The Greatest Mass Murder in History
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/

Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge in Cambodia didn’t want to be left behind, and they did the best that they could:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
By January 1979, 1.5 to 2 million people had died due to the Khmer Rouge's policies.

Then the Rwandan’s had their day in the Sun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
The most widely accepted scholarly estimates are around 500,000 to 800,000 Tutsi deaths.

And the list goes on…

Just go HERE: Genocides in history (after World War II)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(after_World_War_II)

Funnily enough they don’t list that one time starting in 2003 that the American Military killed 100 to 200,000 Iraqi civilians for no reason whatsoever.

Because: “WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ!”


And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the “Ethical” thing to do...

Making ourselves the World Police because: “Isolationism is unethical.” Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.

The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been…
 
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.


And Millions of innocent Ukrainian civilians are being fucked over because foreign nations on a power trip against each other can't keep it in their pants.

You know how easy it is to show you're unethical? Because you cut the second part of what I said, intentionally, which talked about how it depends on the circumstances.

The only reason to do that is because you wanted to spin what I was saying as me being pro-war and pro-intervention all the time. As opposed to what I actually said which was a blanket isolationism which doesn't ever ask if this is the exceptional circumstance where we should make the very rare decision to intervene is what I consider unethical.

You're a fraud Jaeger. A liar, and a fraud. This is your M.O. though. You take a position, and then if someone dares refute it, you take what they said back out of context and lie about it to make yourself feel better about your position. It's not genuine. You're not some internet badass. You're just a cowardly fraud.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:16:32 PM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.

You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 01:19:52 PM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.

You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!

Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?

So, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?

Fine, whats that third option then asshole?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:34:11 PM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.

You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!

Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?

Yes I did. Which does not in fact mean Interventionism is moral. Indeed, what I said was it depends on the circumstances. Which is in no way me saying "Interventionism is moral!" You lazy, lying fuck.

Quote
So, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?

Yes of course there is a third position - the non-extremist one which does not paint the world as just black or white. I have not been beating the drums for interventionism and SAID THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS ON UKRAINE IS WE SHOULD NOT INTERVENE MILITARILY. I said it in this thread not long after the post you're talking about. So, did you see that and unethically pretended I didn't, or were you just lazy and didn't look? One or the other buddy.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 10, 2022, 01:35:51 PM
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What's far fewer than "almost none"? A battalion?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 01:43:26 PM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.

You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!

Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?

Yes I did. Which does not in fact mean Interventionism is moral. Indeed, what I said was it depends on the circumstances. Which is in no way me saying "Interventionism is moral!" You lazy, lying fuck.

Quote
So, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?

Yes of course there is a third position - the non-extremist one which does not paint the world as just black or white. I have not been beating the drums for interventionism and SAID THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS ON UKRAINE IS WE SHOULD NOT INTERVENE MILITARILY. I said it in this thread not long after the post you're talking about. So, did you see that and unethically pretended I didn't, or were you just lazy and didn't look? One or the other buddy.

So, you're basing your "non-Interventionism" on a cost benefit analysis and not on a moral basis, and yet those who say non-interventionism is the way to go are immoral AND lazy even when they are making the exact same analysis and weghing the US citizens interests and lifes and their math ends up with non-interventionism. But theirs is immoral and lazy but your's is not because reasons.

Also, that's not a third position dumbass. But you claim it is because reasons.

Yes, I'm the one saying it's black & white when I'm the one saying it's not and there's no white hats there. Dude, I'm an autist not an idiot.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 01:49:39 PM


It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.

Did you watch the video? Ukranian soldiers waving nazi flags, school children having nazi theater plays, even NATO accidentally posted a picture of a stronk independent neo-nazi wahmen.

Going by population size one would expect to see way less neo-nazis in Ukraine then the US or Russia. And yet you have the Ukranian president honoring a neo-nazi as hero of the nation, and an army battallion made up off neo-nazis.

Once more, this doesn't mean Russia are the good guys, but it sure means neither is Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 02:00:27 PM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.

You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!

Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?

Yes I did. Which does not in fact mean Interventionism is moral. Indeed, what I said was it depends on the circumstances. Which is in no way me saying "Interventionism is moral!" You lazy, lying fuck.

Quote
So, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?

Yes of course there is a third position - the non-extremist one which does not paint the world as just black or white. I have not been beating the drums for interventionism and SAID THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS ON UKRAINE IS WE SHOULD NOT INTERVENE MILITARILY. I said it in this thread not long after the post you're talking about. So, did you see that and unethically pretended I didn't, or were you just lazy and didn't look? One or the other buddy.

So, you're basing your "non-Interventionism" on a cost benefit analysis and not on a moral basis, and yet those who say non-interventionism is the way to go are immoral AND lazy even when they are making the exact same analysis and weghing the US citizens interests and lifes and their math ends up with non-interventionism. But theirs is immoral and lazy but your's is not because reasons.

Also, that's not a third position dumbass. But you claim it is because reasons.

Yes, I'm the one saying it's black & white when I'm the one saying it's not and there's no white hats there. Dude, I'm an autist not an idiot.

No I am not basing it purely on cost benefit analysis and if you actually look at the post in question (which you didn't) I specifically said it has to both pass the moral test for intervention AND the cost benefit analysis for intervention. I guess I am at the point where I can say you're lazy because you're still not willing to even look at what I said?

Here, yah lazy fuck. And don't pretend being on the spectrum makes it harder for you to look back at what someone said before responding to it. You're no victim here:

Regarding Interventionism… I don’t think failing to intervene is inherently evil because things are rarely that clear-cut. Just running into a hostage situation with guns blazing and no idea who is who and where they are is intervention… but it’s stupid and will likely get at least some of the very people you’re supposed to be trying to save killed; possibly even by you as one of them pops up from cover to run for the exit and had the misfortune of wearing a black coat while the hostage takers were wearing black hoodies.

Rather, the moral standard for intervention should be a bit like that of a doctor’s oath… “Don’t cause more problems than you’re trying to solve.”

You say we should intervene in Ukraine? Okay, tell us how. Tell us what is hoped to be gained. Tell us the expected costs. Tell us the realistic case and worst case consequences. If the outlined plan doesn’t make things worse, it’s something I’m amenable to. If it’s just “send over a bunch of our soldiers over to drag us all into WW3” then I suggest booking yourself a flight over there and volunteering for the front line first.

I agree with you. To put it coldly, it's a cost benefit analysis first. Will intervention result in more harm than benefit to the world is the first question. The second question is whether intervention is morally justified in itself. But if you're going to end up with WW3 out of it, then the first question says you don't militarily intervene even if it would be morally just to do so, and you find other ways to help short of military intervention.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 02:07:01 PM


It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.

Did you watch the video? Ukranian soldiers waving nazi flags, school children having nazi theater plays, even NATO accidentally posted a picture of a stronk independent neo-nazi wahmen.

Going by population size one would expect to see way less neo-nazis in Ukraine then the US or Russia. And yet you have the Ukranian president honoring a neo-nazi as hero of the nation, and an army battallion made up off neo-nazis.

Once more, this doesn't mean Russia are the good guys, but it sure means neither is Ukraine.

The party which the neo-nazis contingent supports (which itself is far from all neo-nazi in support) got 2% of the vote in Ukraine during the last election, and have ONE small national guard military unit (which isn't all neo-nazi itself, that's just where most flocked). That percent of vote is less than they got in France and Germany, for comparison.

However, Russia's FSB has been using that less-than-2% and that one small military group and promoting it through propaganda to pretend it's representative of Ukraine and their military when it's not.

And here you are, passing on their propaganda like a good little Commie stooge.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 10, 2022, 02:08:58 PM


It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.

Did you watch the video? Ukranian soldiers waving nazi flags, school children having nazi theater plays, even NATO accidentally posted a picture of a stronk independent neo-nazi wahmen.

Going by population size one would expect to see way less neo-nazis in Ukraine then the US or Russia. And yet you have the Ukranian president honoring a neo-nazi as hero of the nation, and an army battallion made up off neo-nazis.

Once more, this doesn't mean Russia are the good guys, but it sure means neither is Ukraine.
Wasn't the Azov Battalion founded by a Jewish guy? Those are some damned weird neo-Nazis if that's the case.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 02:20:29 PM


It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 02:39:28 PM
Id say they had more public prominence (for a while) then in Russia or United States. But does a bunch of neo-nazis larping in the forest justify shelling civilian sections?
If you didn't want to arm Ukraine there are much much much better reasons then 'A micro segment of the population are neo-nazis'.
Russia keeps a lid on such things because ultra-nationalists have their uses. There can be fine lines between ultra-nationalist and neo-nazis as well, and the latter referring to themselves as the former is one way to survive. Russian National Unity, a real Neo-Nazi group, is even active now in Donbas and directed there by Russia. It is a credit to local governments in Russia that the RNU is banned,  but that hasn't stopped Putin from making use of them.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 02:42:21 PM

It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 03:33:58 PM
Why is no one rounding up all the Antifa groups to send to the Ukraine to fight real Neo-Nazis?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 03:43:42 PM

It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
I'm commenting on the habits of many posters to confuse the presentations of their entertainers with being credible sources. Then they try to deflect criticism with "just watch the video" and similar idiocy.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 04:05:40 PM

It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
I'm commenting on the habits of many posters to confuse the presentations of their entertainers with being credible sources. Then they try to deflect criticism with "just watch the video" and similar idiocy.

HappyDaze is not talking about your favourite news source though.

They are actually credible sources.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 10, 2022, 04:17:15 PM
Why is no one rounding up all the Antifa groups to send to the Ukraine to fight real Neo-Nazis?
Because they finally decided to take their "bash the fash" slogan seriously, and started hitting themselves.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on March 10, 2022, 04:19:49 PM
Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?

Because this is what following the ideal of “X could have been prevented sooner.” really means:

Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".

But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao…
And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the “Ethical” thing to do...

Making ourselves the World Police because: “Isolationism is unethical.” Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.

The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been…
 
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.

In general, I agree with you about most of American interventionism. The U.S. has been very prone to war through most of its history, and I oppose that. I've been to anti-war protests for Iraq and Yemen in particular, and in general have been opposed to hawkish interventionism. However, it seems like you're implying that the Allies should not have gone to war against Hitler, and that it was bloodthirsty lunacy to do so.

First of all, going to war against Nazi Germany was not about stopping the Holocaust. It was because Nazi Germany had expanded its military to dominate and conquer country after country: Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc.

Opposing a military invasion that someone else started is not the same thing as starting war after war. Defensive war means that if someone else starts a war by invading another country, then other countries ally to stop it and restore the status quo. If invasions are allowed to continue without opposition, then every would-be conqueror is encouraged and we end up with more war, not less.

---

As another note - you talk about "Neocon Interventionism", and I'd like to clarify about terms. Wikipedia on neoconservatism says:

Quote
Neoconservatism is a political movement that was born in the United States during the 1960s among liberal hawks who became disenchanted with the increasingly pacifist foreign policy of the Democratic Party and with the growing New Left and counterculture of the 1960s, particularly the Vietnam protests. Some also began to question their liberal beliefs regarding domestic policies such as the Great Society. Neoconservatives typically advocate the promotion of democracy and interventionism in international affairs, including peace through strength, and are known for espousing disdain for communism and political radicalism.

Prominent neoconservatives in the George W. Bush administration included Paul Wolfowitz, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle and Paul Bremer. While not identifying as neoconservatives, senior officials Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld listened closely to neoconservative advisers regarding foreign policy, especially the defense of Israel and the promotion of American influence in the Middle East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism


So the neocons were liberals who jumped from the Democrats to Republicans in order to stay hawkish. But traditional conservatives like Nixon and Reagan have been just as hawkish as neocons. So I'd describe this as "American interventionism" - rather than associating it specifically with neocons.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 04:38:29 PM

It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
I'm commenting on the habits of many posters to confuse the presentations of their entertainers with being credible sources. Then they try to deflect criticism with "just watch the video" and similar idiocy.

HappyDaze is not talking about your favourite news source though.

They are actually credible sources.
If that news source is based on YouTube videos, then it's included.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 04:52:16 PM
To give nazis more context: nazis at first arrived in Ukraine as borderline liberators. After the near genocide by the hands of the mainly Russian USSR, the nazis where saviors by comparison. When their genocidal intent became more clear, the tune generally changed.

But Nazis have more mixed connotations in Ukraine then other Eastern Europe states for this reason.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 04:56:25 PM

It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
I'm commenting on the habits of many posters to confuse the presentations of their entertainers with being credible sources. Then they try to deflect criticism with "just watch the video" and similar idiocy.

HappyDaze is not talking about your favourite news source though.

They are actually credible sources.
If that news source is based on YouTube videos, then it's included.

But HappyDaze all news sources are on youtube except for Russia news.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 10, 2022, 06:35:08 PM
On Wednesday, YouTube slapped an inappropriate content warning on Oliver Stone's Ukraine on Fire (2016) and age restricted it, which is effectively a soft ban. Apparently, they don't like something about it, perhaps the way it points out that the Ukrainian leadership may be puppets of Washington, or the coverage of the Nazis.

The publishers have uploaded it to Rumble, with no restrictions:
https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 10, 2022, 06:51:42 PM
Was wondering when someone was going to mention the neo-nazi connections in the Ukraine military.

Personally, I have a wait and see attitude. It's a shame that Russia is attacking Ukraine, but I have no deep insights into the conflict, or the people involved. I'd prefer if the US stayed out of it, because meddling in foreign affairs is usually various levels of disaster. Sounds like we're most likely to doink around with sanctions, indirect military support, and explicit humanitarian aid. I guess that's fine, as long as people realize 15-30 years down the road, political pundits will likely point out how these were terrible decisions in hindsight.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 07:03:14 PM
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What's far fewer than "almost none"? A battalion?

I started to look around for actual numbers, and curiously, Aljazeera claims it is 10-20% (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment) of about 900.

My understanding is that, trying to break them up would just create a dangerous, illegal group needing watching, whereas being undergunned and facing the rebels in Donbas backed by Russia, they were put to work and encouraged to reduce the goose stepping. Given eight years has since gone by, 10-20% seems small.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 10, 2022, 08:43:03 PM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?

https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 10, 2022, 09:22:26 PM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?

https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation

  I wonder who determines what is disinformation?  Ned Price?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 09:44:55 PM
Let me put it on record that disinformation and censorship I stand against always. Ukraine doesn't need to be a 'Bastion of European Democracy' (instead of the 2nd world corruptionville it is) for the people dying there be worth protecting (or not) on their own merit.

Are there neo-nazis in Ukraine? Yes. Did putin send out an elite strike squad to eliminate them and only them? No. Will bombing civilians make the neo-Nazis go away? No.

The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 10:43:26 PM
The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.

I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody.  The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 10:49:58 PM
I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody.  The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.
Its escalating to that point. I don't see this invasion or the military tactics as coming from a guy who really thought this out. Russia has a history of going into 'Fuck it - Level the City' when it doesn't get what it wants.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 11:10:22 PM
I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody.  The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.
Its escalating to that point. I don't see this invasion or the military tactics as coming from a guy who really thought this out. Russia has a history of going into 'Fuck it - Level the City' when it doesn't get what it wants.

Maybe bringing the West to its knees makes the invasion worthwhile.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on March 11, 2022, 08:23:32 AM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?

https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
https://search.brave.com/ (https://search.brave.com/)

They went to the effort of building their own search engine system rather than piggyback off Google’s results like DuckDuckGo did.

Try a search there vs. Google/DDG and you’ll see a notable difference in results on “controversial” topics.

The owner of Brave is also the guy who invented JavaScript and helped found Mozilla as an alternative to Explorer. He’s been a long time advocate for internet privacy and his Brave browser even includes all sorts of built-in features for anonymity.

He’s already been “canceled” by the Left (and his reaction to that was to build his own uncancellable system) so there’s far less chance of him drinking the kool-aid to stay in their good graces.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 11, 2022, 08:44:47 AM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?

https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
https://search.brave.com/ (https://search.brave.com/)

They went to the effort of building their own search engine system rather than piggyback off Google’s results like DuckDuckGo did.

Try a search there vs. Google/DDG and you’ll see a notable difference in results on “controversial” topics.

The owner of Brave is also the guy who invented JavaScript and helped found Mozilla as an alternative to Explorer. He’s been a long time advocate for internet privacy and his Brave browser even includes all sorts of built-in features for anonymity.

He’s already been “canceled” by the Left (and his reaction to that was to build his own uncancellable system) so there’s far less chance of him drinking the kool-aid to stay in their good graces.
Good to know. I've switched my defaults.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 11, 2022, 11:41:59 AM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?

https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation

Brave Search seems ok. There are others out there.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 11, 2022, 01:23:04 PM
Its escalating to that point. I don't see this invasion or the military tactics as coming from a guy who really thought this out. Russia has a history of going into 'Fuck it - Level the City' when it doesn't get what it wants.
There are cities which have some strategic importance and they are either being captured or pummeled into dust with an emphasis on cowing the population. My direct contacts in Kherson (which was overrun and now controlled by Russian forces) have told me that while there was some initial damage, it is being used more as a clear path to reach other key cities.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 11, 2022, 02:42:30 PM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?

https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
https://search.brave.com/ (https://search.brave.com/)

They went to the effort of building their own search engine system rather than piggyback off Google’s results like DuckDuckGo did.

Try a search there vs. Google/DDG and you’ll see a notable difference in results on “controversial” topics.

The owner of Brave is also the guy who invented JavaScript and helped found Mozilla as an alternative to Explorer. He’s been a long time advocate for internet privacy and his Brave browser even includes all sorts of built-in features for anonymity.

He’s already been “canceled” by the Left (and his reaction to that was to build his own uncancellable system) so there’s far less chance of him drinking the kool-aid to stay in their good graces.

  was he the guy who donated to the "wrong side of history" on that marriage referendum years ago?  Where the "wrong" side won?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 11, 2022, 03:04:54 PM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?

https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
https://search.brave.com/ (https://search.brave.com/)

They went to the effort of building their own search engine system rather than piggyback off Google’s results like DuckDuckGo did.

Try a search there vs. Google/DDG and you’ll see a notable difference in results on “controversial” topics.

The owner of Brave is also the guy who invented JavaScript and helped found Mozilla as an alternative to Explorer. He’s been a long time advocate for internet privacy and his Brave browser even includes all sorts of built-in features for anonymity.

He’s already been “canceled” by the Left (and his reaction to that was to build his own uncancellable system) so there’s far less chance of him drinking the kool-aid to stay in their good graces.

  was he the guy who donated to the "wrong side of history" on that marriage referendum years ago?  Where the "wrong" side won?
Yup. Brandon Eich. Wound up getting ejected from his own company for the high crime of... well... having a wrong opinion.

And yeah. That proposition passed, only to be overturned by a judge.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: soundchaser on March 11, 2022, 03:14:45 PM
The facts indeed on communism and killing. My own post on these very issues at the place known as TBP got me permabanned.

...
Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."

It's a cowardly and lazy position.

LOL... Can you make it any more obvious that you didn't watch the video!  The guy speaking is far from a fan of Putin.

And ROTFL at a few bad acts by all sides...

More disingenuous words of a warmongering shill that still thinks 'Team America World Police' is a good idea.

I'm applying the same standards to everyone involved.


You're the one spouting puerile nonsense like this:

My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
...

That is nothing less than a horrific emotionally driven appeal for perpetual war.

George Washington spoke with Great Wisdom:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
Quote
...
   Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
   The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.
   Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality, we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.
   Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice? ...


Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?

Because this is what following the ideal of “X could have been prevented sooner.” really means:

Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".

But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao…

There was the Holodomor of 1932 to 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Where the Russian Commies committed mass genocide and killed around 3.5 million Ukrainians by starving them to death.

Then Stalin was all like: “Yes, not a bad start comrades, but I know that I can do better…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#:~:text=In%202011%2C%20after%20assessing%20twenty,policies%20are%20taken%20into%20account.

Soviet Gulags: 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.
The Soviet famine of 1932–1933: Add another 2-6 million dead on top of the Holodomor.
Judicial executions for political charges from 1929–53: According to official figures there were 777,975.
The Soviet famine of 1946–1947: An estimated 1 to 1.5 million lives lost.
Population transfer by the Soviet Union: The reported number of kulaks and their relatives who had died in labour colonies from 1932 to 1940 was 389,521.
According to Soviet archives, the heaviest mortality rate was documented in people from the Northern Caucasus (the Chechens, Ingush) with 144,704 deaths, or 24.7% of the entire deported population, as well as 44,125 deaths from Crimea, or a 19.3% mortality rate.
Katyn massacre: The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000.
Number of deaths of people by Stalinism, 1924–1953: Total estimated at somewhere around 7,231,000–9,551,000

Then Mao Zedong was all like: “Not bad for a bunch of round-eyed barbarians; here, hold my tea…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
From 1958 to 1962. Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes. Mao decreed that efforts to multiply grain yields and bring industry to the countryside should be increased. Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting non-existent "surpluses" and leaving farmers to starve.
Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million.

The Greatest Mass Murder in History
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/

Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge in Cambodia didn’t want to be left behind, and they did the best that they could:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
By January 1979, 1.5 to 2 million people had died due to the Khmer Rouge's policies.

Then the Rwandan’s had their day in the Sun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
The most widely accepted scholarly estimates are around 500,000 to 800,000 Tutsi deaths.

And the list goes on…

Just go HERE: Genocides in history (after World War II)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(after_World_War_II)

Funnily enough they don’t list that one time starting in 2003 that the American Military killed 100 to 200,000 Iraqi civilians for no reason whatsoever.

Because: “WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ!”


And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the “Ethical” thing to do...

Making ourselves the World Police because: “Isolationism is unethical.” Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.

The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been…
 
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.


And Millions of innocent Ukrainian civilians are being fucked over because foreign nations on a power trip against each other can't keep it in their pants.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 11, 2022, 03:41:16 PM
Quote
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.

This is certainly an argument for Russia to go in and clean out the Nazi problem in the Ukraine.

It would be unethical for Putin not to.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 11, 2022, 04:03:19 PM
Quote
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.

This is certainly an argument for Russia to go in and clean out the Nazi problem in the Ukraine.

It would be unethical for Putin not to.
Well, the fact checkers just said there is no flying Nazi with laser beam eyes problem in the Ukraine, so that exact statement you just said that I just copied with no alterations is wrong, making Putin objectively bad.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 11, 2022, 04:08:23 PM
Quote
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.

This is certainly an argument for Russia to go in and clean out the Nazi problem in the Ukraine.

It would be unethical for Putin not to.
Well, the fact checkers just said there is no flying Nazi with laser beam eyes problem in the Ukraine, so that exact statement you just said that I just copied with no alterations is wrong, making Putin objectively bad.

Can Putin wait until the Ukrainian Bioweapon labs successfully mutate their Nazis?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 11, 2022, 04:11:17 PM
Quote
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.

This is certainly an argument for Russia to go in and clean out the Nazi problem in the Ukraine.

It would be unethical for Putin not to.
Well, the fact checkers just said there is no flying Nazi with laser beam eyes problem in the Ukraine, so that exact statement you just said that I just copied with no alterations is wrong, making Putin objectively bad.

Can Putin wait until the Ukrainian Bioweapon labs successfully mutate their Nazis?
The lab leak is a conspiracy theory!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 11, 2022, 06:28:41 PM
The facts indeed on communism and killing. My own post on these very issues at the place known as TBP got me permabanned.
...

But of course it did. It went against the narrative that there cannot be anything worse than a Nazi.

This is especially important when the ideological roots of your own worldview come from the same source as those that made Literally Hitler look like an enthusiastic amateur...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 11, 2022, 06:51:46 PM
...
Can Putin wait until the Ukrainian Bioweapon labs successfully mutate their Nazis?

Total Russian disinformation propaganda...

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 11, 2022, 07:06:55 PM
Their nazis are propoganda. Our nazis are real...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 11, 2022, 07:43:32 PM
Opposing a military invasion that someone else started is not the same thing as starting war after war. Defensive war means that if someone else starts a war by invading another country, then other countries ally to stop it and restore the status quo. If invasions are allowed to continue without opposition, then every would-be conqueror is encouraged and we end up with more war, not less.

All things being equal, you are correct.

But, in my opinion, the current mess in Ukraine is exactly that: One big mess.

The US has interfered grossly in the so-called Ukrainian democracy. Myself and others have posted links detailing US actions in the region. You don’t have to take them at face value – by all means have your filters up. But at a minimum they show that the US has done its share of dirt in the Ukraine.

The Ukrainian government and oligarchs themselves are outrageously corrupt. And they have not been good actors in the Donbass region – their artillery shelling of civilians there on and off over the past eight years is a matter of video record.

Of course Russia has certainly had a hand in things as well. They helped to fund the Donbass militias. And it was their own pro-Russian puppet regime that the US helped overthrow and replace with our series of pro-west puppets.

And who knows what the fallout from their invasion will be years from now? If we get that far...

All these decades worth of shenanigans in the Ukraine from every player in this debacle begs the question: What does “restore the status quo” in Ukraine really mean?

The propaganda is flying so fast and furious from everyone, that I’m not sure anyone really knows.

And millions of innocent Ukrainian people are getting screwed while major world powers try to impose their will on the region in the most dangerous war in my lifetime.


So the neocons were liberals who jumped from the Democrats to Republicans in order to stay hawkish. But traditional conservatives like Nixon and Reagan have been just as hawkish as neocons. So I'd describe this as "American interventionism" - rather than associating it specifically with neocons.

That’s a really good take. You’re right: "American interventionism" is a much more accurate and correct way to phrase things than what I used.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 11, 2022, 08:09:05 PM
You know how easy it is to show you're unethical? Because you cut the second part of what I said, intentionally, which talked about how it depends on the circumstances.

You certainly try to frame things your way, but this is another swing and a miss…


To Review:

It depends on the circumstances, for any ethical being it depends on the circumstances. If it doesn't depend on the circumstances for you because you think there are no circumstances in which you'd help your neighbor in need when you have the means to do so, then you're unethical.

You Said: “It depends on the circumstances.”


I didn’t feel the need to quote it as you gave an example of an acceptable circumstance for intervention in the first paragraph of your post when you said:

My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.

You had clearly established one circumstance where earlier Foreign Intervention would have been “ethical”. And where isolationism was clearly “unethical”.

The “ethical” circumstance for intervention given was: Bad person, i.e. Literally Hitler, commits genocide on innocent civilians.

I am not the only poster here to make that perfectly reasonable deduction from what you wrote.

I didn’t spin anything. You gave a clear example of a situation where Military Interventionism would have been “ethical”.

I then highlighted several instances in history where that specific criterion directly applied.

And noted that using that specific criterion to “ethically” intervene would have doomed any nation doing so to perpetual war.

i.e.  It would have been “ethical” for us to have intervened against Stalin and Mao who killed far more people than Literally Hitler.


The only reason to do that is because you wanted to spin what I was saying as me being pro-war and pro-intervention all the time. As opposed to what I actually said which was a blanket isolationism which doesn't ever ask if this is the exceptional circumstance where we should make the very rare decision to intervene is what I consider unethical.

You're a fraud Jaeger. A liar, and a fraud. This is your M.O. though. You take a position, and then if someone dares refute it, you take what they said back out of context and lie about it to make yourself feel better about your position. It's not genuine. You're not some internet badass. You're just a cowardly fraud.

Sorry, but I’ve seen the “accuse others of that which you are guilty of” tactic before. *Yawn*…

So I’m just gonna take this as a solid confirmation that you didn’t watch the video I posted at all.


Playing the victim doesn’t work too well when you start off like this:

...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war.  It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.

This is big.

The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.

But it's just not our business.

Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
….

You didn’t ask for any underlying reasoning for my position in this situation. You just jumped straight to saying that I was spouting an unethical isolationist mantra.

And then you go on to act shocked! Shocked I say! And try to play the “misquoted” victim when people dish it back just as hard as you dished it out, using perfectly reasonable quotations from posts that you wrote.

You’ve been straight up busted, and called out on your routine on here so many times, that I am far from the only one in this thread to have used the words Mistwell, Disingenuous, and Liar/Lie/Lies, in the same sentence.

Other posters here have busted you doing the same routine as well in more than one thread.

Your shrill protestations of victimhood are falling on deaf ears.

Nobody believes you.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 11, 2022, 08:41:05 PM
...
Can Putin wait until the Ukrainian Bioweapon labs successfully mutate their Nazis?

Total Russian disinformation propaganda...

You cant trust Fox news Youtube channel about the secret Ukraine mutant Nazi  research labs.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 12, 2022, 12:55:10 AM
Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNkhQ65WQAAIPTX?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 07:16:36 AM
Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNkhQ65WQAAIPTX?format=jpg&name=small)

Just when I think that humanity can't get any dumber......

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: 3catcircus on March 12, 2022, 09:40:51 AM
Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNkhQ65WQAAIPTX?format=jpg&name=small)

Just when I think that humanity can't get any dumber......

Western society is doomed.  Might as well kill everyone under age 50 and start over rather than progress to the point that the movie Idiocracy can be considered a documentary...
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on March 12, 2022, 10:41:11 AM
Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNkhQ65WQAAIPTX?format=jpg&name=small)

Just when I think that humanity can't get any dumber......

Western society is doomed.  Might as well kill everyone under age 50 and start over rather than progress to the point that the movie Idiocracy can be considered a documentary...
To be fair, it’s not like everyone under 50 is addicted to this idiocy.

My godkids and honorary nieces/nephews have been kept away from that crap (Home schooling is a beautiful thing). The oldest of them finished all their course work for High School by 16, went to trade school and was already professionally employed in their trade, making good money and owned their own car on their 18th birthday a few months back. The next youngest is en route for the same course. They are, as they say, Based.

Based on what I’ve seen of the actual numbers the idiocy is coming from the noisiest 10% or less of the population… the same as it’s been throughout history. BigTech just magnifies it to make it look like 50, 75 or even 95% of the population.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on March 12, 2022, 05:28:21 PM
Opposing a military invasion that someone else started is not the same thing as starting war after war. Defensive war means that if someone else starts a war by invading another country, then other countries ally to stop it and restore the status quo. If invasions are allowed to continue without opposition, then every would-be conqueror is encouraged and we end up with more war, not less.

All things being equal, you are correct.

But, in my opinion, the current mess in Ukraine is exactly that: One big mess.
All these decades worth of shenanigans in the Ukraine from every player in this debacle begs the question: What does “restore the status quo” in Ukraine really mean?

I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. That was true of WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Afghanistan, etc. For example, the U.S. did a ton of shit in Hawaii prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. But there are still principles that apply. If principles are going to matter at all, then they have to matter in messy real-world cases.

In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.


And millions of innocent Ukrainian people are getting screwed while major world powers try to impose their will on the region in the most dangerous war in my lifetime.

I agree that it sucks for the Ukrainians. So what do you suggest is best to do for the Ukrainians right now? I had previously suggested donating to the charity, United Help Ukraine - which is the highest rating in Charity Navigator, has an established reputation, and has transparency about where their money goes.

https://unitedhelpukraine.org/

My church is also encouraging donations to the Hungarian Unitarian church which is working to help refugees, but that's Unitarian specific, so I'm not necessarily suggesting that for others.

Beyond individual charities, I dislike token moves that are just for show - but I think economic sanctions that actually have an effect are good - both for Ukrainians and for world peace. Letting invasions succeed and thrive is just asking for more trouble in the future. It is like paying off terrorist demands, which encourages more terrorism.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: DocJones on March 12, 2022, 05:35:24 PM
The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.

I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody.  The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.

Just as an observation, I could not help but notice that Russia started shelling civilian areas hard
after many media stories and videos talking about Ukraine arming civilians with guns and Molotov cocktails. 
One of the "laws" of war (if there are any) is that combatants are required to distinguish themselves from
non-combatants in order to prevent attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure. 
If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 05:50:02 PM
The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.

I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody.  The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.

Just as an observation, I could not help but notice that Russia started shelling civilian areas hard
after many media stories and videos talking about Ukraine arming civilians with guns and Molotov cocktails. 
One of the "laws" of war (if there are any) is that combatants are required to distinguish themselves from
non-combatants in order to prevent attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure. 
If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?

   Yeah this is going to be a case where propaganda bites them in the ass.  Best results are a quick surrender and capitulate to best terms he can get so Zelensky can get back to taking and passing out bags of money for the money laundering center of the West.   Fighting "to the death" is going to end badly for many, many, many more Ukrainians.  This squabble likely has hurt Putin no matter what, even if he gets the no NATO agreements he wants.  NATO and the west can get back to going back on their word later on, maybe after Putin leaves or dies.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 06:13:21 PM
If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?
Thats such an unbelievably stupid argument. Ukraine is a country of 44 Million people and 25-50 thousand where given weapons (with no evidence of mass participation in warfare).

If you believe that Russia only started harming civilians once they started attacking them on mass then I have a deed for the state of New York id like to sell you.

Best results are a quick surrender and capitulate.

Good to see we have a precognicant psychic on our hands. Why doesn't just everybody just capitulate to threats and violence. Im under no delusion of Ukraines chances, and Zelenksy is a piece of shit, but that doesn't make every cause in the world not worth fighting for.

Conquest/war is the biggest social uniter in Russia (except maybe alchoholism). Russians as a whole can wether a whole lot of bullshit if they can get the glory of conquest. Even if it means conquering an ashpit by people that will fight your occupation.
The easier this happens, the more encouraged they will be to do it again. Putin will never leave until he is killed, and his successor will have no motivation not to do this again.

The national zeal in Russia, is that Ukraine/ex-imperial states just 'belong' to Russia, and their succession is just an aberration.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:16:55 PM
If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?
Thats such an unbelievably stupid argument. Ukraine is a country of 44 Million people and 25-50 thousand where given weapons (with no evidence of mass participation in warfare).

If you believe that Russia only started harming civilians once they started attacking them on mass then I have a deed for the state of New York id like to sell you.

Best results are a quick surrender and capitulate.

Good to see we have a precognicant psychic on our hands. Why doesn't any anybody just capitulate to threats and violence. Im under no delusion of Ukraines chances, and Zelenksy is a piece of shit, but that doesn't make every cause in the world not worth fighting for.

Conquest/war is the biggest social uniter in Russia (except maybe alchoholism). Russians as a whole can wether a whole lot of bullshit if they can get the glory of conquest. Even if it means conquering an ashpit by people that will fight your occupation.
The easier this happens, the more encouraged they will be to do it again. Putin will never leave until he is killed, and his successor will have no motivation not to do this again.

The national zeal in Russia, is that Ukraine/ex-imperial states just 'belong' to Russia, and their succession is just an aberration.

  I did a math problem.  Not a future reading problem.  Fighting, in real war conditions does kill people, and in brutal fashion.    If Putin continues to escalate, all the pictures people can post with granny holding a gun is only going to get people killed.  I am not saying Ukrainians should not fight, I just said where the math works out best for them.    It is not as if Ukraine was hitting on all cylinders economically before this.  But if you think they are better off fighting to the end, so be it.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 06:22:34 PM
If Putin continues to escalate, all the pictures people can post with granny holding a gun is only going to get people killed.
As evidenced by? Russia has its own internal propaganda arm. Thats like saying all these people stepping on cracks is going to get people killed.
Fighting back is whats going to get people killed. Or being in the way is going to get people killed.
There are absolutely no white hats in this scenario, but the devil needs no advocate when he has the superior military force.

Like anything else, its easy to give comments about a situation when it doesn't affect you. I never truly cared about wars until this one.

It is not as if Ukraine was hitting on all cylinders economically before this.
.....What does that have to do with anything? If your poor - don't protect your home? Just let them take what they want?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:24:52 PM
   It does affect me, it affects the whole world.  I never said russia isnt churning propaganda like crazy.  So your position is what then?  Fight it out to the end?  OR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live? 
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 06:29:03 PM
It does affect me, it affects the whole world.
Oh your the omniscence spirit of the world. Now I understand.

Quote
OR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live?
So is that your position on anything that involves threats of violence?
So your position is what then?

I don't know. Both will suck. Russia will probably win eventually either way, but neither situation is good at all. Living in fear is a toxic way to live. If Russia wins, it will demand complete disarment, meaning it can just keep doing this if it wants, because to them it would be a big morale booster.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 12, 2022, 06:31:59 PM
I think we can all agree that banning Russian streamers from Twitch and OnlyFans is the best way to end the war.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:33:15 PM
It does affect me, it affects the whole world.
Oh your the omniscence spirit of the world. Now I understand.

Quote
OR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live?
So is that your position on anything that involves threats of violence?

  Nope.  I enjoy violence on a personal level.  I have spent a lifetime trying to temper that into a few activities that would keep me out of prison.  I also know that most people just do not have it in them, and lots and lots of people are going to die if they keep going.  How many lives is it worth for Zelensky to hold out and never make an agreement around NATO?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:35:56 PM


I don't know. Both will suck. Russia will probably win eventually either way, but neither situation is good at all. Living in fear is a toxic way to live. If Russia wins, it will demand complete disarment, meaning it can just keep doing this if it wants, because to them it would be a big morale booster.

  That is a fair assessment, and one I agree with 100 percent.  I only made a calculation on loss of life, not what happens after.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 12, 2022, 06:36:11 PM
It does affect me, it affects the whole world.
Oh your the omniscence spirit of the world. Now I understand.

Quote
OR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live?
So is that your position on anything that involves threats of violence?
So your position is what then?

I don't know. Both will suck. Russia will probably win eventually either way, but neither situation is good at all. Living in fear is a toxic way to live. If Russia wins, it will demand complete disarment, meaning it can just keep doing this if it wants, because to them it would be a big morale booster.
If Russia wins that completely, the West will lose all credibility. They put way too much prestige at stake.

That will not be good for the future of Taiwan, or more generally the West Pacific.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:03:34 PM
That is a fair assessment, and one I agree with 100 percent.  I only made a calculation on loss of life, not what happens after.

Many things might cost lives. I don't believe Ukraine should keep fighting until its glassed, but if it just costs too little it will show Putin others are bluffing. What if he invades Poland and says 'If Nato Intervens Il throw a fit like I did with Ukraine'?
The history of Russia is the history of conquest. Unlike for the rest of europe, WWII was seen as a big win for Russia (despite the staggering loss of life). The loss of life and its cost has faded over time and a zingoistic zeal to 'liberate our Russian comrades' has been papered over it.

Russia is a mystery (even to the people living there). Why everybody is so purpetually unhappy is always on everyones minds.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 12, 2022, 07:07:33 PM
The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.

I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody.  The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.

Just as an observation, I could not help but notice that Russia started shelling civilian areas hard
after many media stories and videos talking about Ukraine arming civilians with guns and Molotov cocktails. 
One of the "laws" of war (if there are any) is that combatants are required to distinguish themselves from
non-combatants in order to prevent attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure. 
If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?

Is it just me or does it seem that the US is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 12, 2022, 07:15:57 PM
Is it just me or does it seem that the US is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?

I think the US is willing to let Ukrainians fight as long as they have the will to fight. A great many haven't lost that will. There's a significant amount of anger that's built up over the last eight years and the well televised present that they can see. I am not sure about Kharkiv, but most other cities still have at least internet access.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PM
That is a fair assessment, and one I agree with 100 percent.  I only made a calculation on loss of life, not what happens after.

Many things might cost lives. I don't believe Ukraine should keep fighting until its glassed, but if it just costs too little it will show Putin others are bluffing. What if he invades Poland and says 'If Nato Intervens Il throw a fit like I did with Ukraine'?
The history of Russia is the history of conquest. Unlike for the rest of europe, WWII was seen as a big win for Russia (despite the staggering loss of life). The loss of life and its cost has faded over time and a zingoistic zeal to 'liberate our Russian comrades' has been papered over it.

Russia is a mystery (even to the people living there). Why everybody is so purpetually unhappy is always on everyones minds.

  Well, because of paperwork I guess if they do that it is WW3 anyway.  You are right many things might cost lives, but a 5.45x39 or a 7.62x39 does tend to expedite when and how much the cost ends up being.   Maybe it is best to go ahead and take a chance and take military action (NATO) now even if it is going to happen later any way.  That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.    I suppose I can hope the USA has some cutting edge tech that can neutralize nukes and the threat of same. 
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:25:20 PM
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I don't know. Putin is operating under delusional logic, similar to USA but still different. The USA thought it could bribe other nations into being democratic (after bombing them). Russia thinks it can get its empire back together (with a shrinking population), except it has no funds to do so, the warfare is too destructive/expensive and information too easily spread for people to like an occupation. Its just military inertia.

While this will get Putin another 10 years in office, it comes at the expense of utterly destabilizing the country.

Edit: Despite what Metal Gear Solid 4 thinks, you cannot have a military economy in the modern age. Most of a countries cash nowadays depends on its infrastructure, and modern warfare is massively destructive to said infrastructure.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 09:06:30 PM
OK now Putins plan is becoming clearer. Now that he has taken over Kherson, he wants to fracture it like Donetsk. Putin wants to fracture the country into chunks and only control the areas he cares about.  But unlike Donetsk, no major region wants to become independant all that much.

This would reduce the cost of occupation, and is really fucking evil. He effectively wants to own all the chunks that provide Ukraine any value and then let the rest rot.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 12, 2022, 10:40:56 PM
My Russian friend, talking to his friends still in Russia, just made a point I hadn't considered before.

China invades Siberia with the intent of taking it (a territory they've wanted in the past).

Who stops them?

Not Russia. Their military is busy on the other side.

Not any of the forces that normally would have done something about it. They're all pissed at Russia at the moment.

Who does anything about it?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: David Johansen on March 13, 2022, 12:01:40 AM
But does anybody really want Siberia?  Here in Canada, we lay claim to a lot of territory that nobody in their right mind would want to contest and so we get to keep it.  I have recently suggested that we just let the entire population of Ukraine immigrate to northern Saskatchewan.  It would nicely swing the center of voting power to the west :D
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 13, 2022, 01:01:58 AM
My Russian friend, talking to his friends still in Russia, just made a point I hadn't considered before.

China invades Siberia with the intent of taking it (a territory they've wanted in the past).

Who stops them?

Not Russia. Their military is busy on the other side.

Not any of the forces that normally would have done something about it. They're all pissed at Russia at the moment.

Who does anything about it?
I posted earlier about the Primorsky Krai. Unlike the rest of Siberia, it has a real and concrete strategic value: It would give China direct access to the Sea of Japan, which they really, really want. And it would also cripple Russia, who would lose access to the Pacific. In addition, it fits in with the "part of China since ancient times" narrative the CCP adores, because until the late 19th century it was part of Outer Manchuria. The natives aren't Han, but they're formerly Chinese.

Though I don't see it as likely, unless Russia is humiliated and crippled. The Chinese-Russia friendship is a only matter of convenience and common enemies, but they're not going to turn on each other without a serious show of weakness. Plus, dealing with Vladivostok would be tough, because it has somewhat less than a million Russians.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on March 13, 2022, 01:42:06 AM
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.

I want a world without war, but I don't think that pure pacifism is a good route to that. I think it is often appropriate to fight back.

I think the Ukrainian soldiers and civilians who are fighting back against the Russians aren't doing so because the West is telling them to. They are doing so because they believe their freedom from Russian conquest is something worth fighting for in itself. I don't think that is stupidity or blindness, and I'm not going to call them fools or puppets for doing so.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 13, 2022, 04:03:29 AM
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 13, 2022, 04:58:19 AM
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?

Maybe he is an Oughtist?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 13, 2022, 05:17:18 AM
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?

Maybe he is an Oughtist?

Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 13, 2022, 06:09:39 AM
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?

Maybe he is an Oughtist?

Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?

Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?

No?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Chris24601 on March 13, 2022, 08:03:16 AM
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?

Maybe he is an Oughtist?

Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Not that I’m aware of. My own position is that war is evil, but sometimes it’s the lesser evil and there are no other good options.

Worse, what might have looked like good options at the time could turn out to be bad options; Putin claimed it was Ukraine refusing to abide by a treaty as one of his reasons for war and it looks like the Ukrainian government wasn’t actually abiding by it. So perhaps war would have been avoided if they had followed it, but part of that treaty was about disarmament and if Putin was always going to invade he would have just made a different excuse and the Ukraine would have had even fewer options for defending itself.

We don’t know and can’t know what could have been if people had made different choices. We just have to deal with the situation we have now.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 13, 2022, 10:50:23 AM
But does anybody really want Siberia?  Here in Canada, we lay claim to a lot of territory that nobody in their right mind would want to contest and so we get to keep it.  I have recently suggested that we just let the entire population of Ukraine immigrate to northern Saskatchewan.  It would nicely swing the center of voting power to the west :D

Yes, China REALLY wants Siberia. They used to own it. The people who currently live there have many ties to China. The population on the China border with Russia is roughly 10 times the population on the Russian border side. China needs room, and that's the room they've often wanted.

The NYT (not a great source) was writing about how China will eventually retake Siberia back in 2014/2015 (https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/07/03/where-do-borders-need-to-be-redrawn/why-china-will-reclaim-siberia). 

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/07/04/opinion/map/map-articleLarge.png)
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 13, 2022, 11:34:46 AM
But does anybody really want Siberia?  Here in Canada, we lay claim to a lot of territory that nobody in their right mind would want to contest and so we get to keep it.  I have recently suggested that we just let the entire population of Ukraine immigrate to northern Saskatchewan.  It would nicely swing the center of voting power to the west :D

Yes, China REALLY wants Siberia. They used to own it. The people who currently live there have many ties to China. The population on the China border with Russia is roughly 10 times the population on the Russian border side. China needs room, and that's the room they've often wanted.

The NYT (not a great source) was writing about how China will eventually retake Siberia back in 2014/2015 (https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/07/03/where-do-borders-need-to-be-redrawn/why-china-will-reclaim-siberia). 

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/07/04/opinion/map/map-articleLarge.png)

Siberia is often wrongly considered a snowy wasteland. This is false. Vladivostok is along the same latitude as Portland. There are rich farmlands waiting for farmers to develop them. Mountains with lakes and rich pastures that would make Montana look like a desert. And then oil, gas, metals, lumber, etc. Siberia is a rich land waiting to be developed, and for many different reasons the Russians have been unable to accomplish what the USA did in North America during the 19th Century. Currently most of the Russian people reside within 100 miles of the Moscow -- St Petersburg axis. No matter what incentives are offered by the Russian government, no matter how impoverished the Russians living there may be, most Russians will not leave that area and head East. As such the Chinese are taking over Siberia with illegal immigrants, and there is not much that the Russians can do about it.

The real question is going to be whether or not Russia is able to integrate those Chinese into Russian culture, or will they eventually turn Siberia into China?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 13, 2022, 02:44:36 PM
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.

Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.

But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."

NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about

Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 02:52:05 PM
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.

Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.

But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."

NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about

Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Nervous/stress laughter is a thing. Buddy of mine was a combat medic, and when we had medical emergencies (including a patient that had a wound closure open and abdominal evisceration post surgery) he would giggle like a little girl even while his hands were steady and mind was sharp.

We can only hope our VP is the same, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 13, 2022, 08:32:05 PM
Siberia is often wrongly considered a snowy wasteland. This is false. Vladivostok is along the same latitude as Portland.

While you are right that the geography isn't something you can assume, you've chosen a poor example. Vladivostok gets mostly sub-Arctic weather which is much harsher than Portland. When you have a really cold airstream coming off quite cold lands, you can get loads of snow all winter. If you go up north in the province there and look out on the ocean, you can get free floating ice in the winter as well.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Wrath of God on March 13, 2022, 08:35:29 PM
Quote
The real question is going to be whether or not Russia is able to integrate those Chinese into Russian culture, or will they eventually turn Siberia into China?

New culture can arise. Depends how Chinese migrants, often founding families with Chinese women will want to proceed.

Quote
es, China REALLY wants Siberia. They used to own it

No, not really. For most of history Chinese states covered just about half of less of modern China (Easternmost part usually), slowly stretching to modern size. One piece they really lost was Mongolia, they hold for several centuries. The only serious claim for just a piece of Siberia - very small compared to modern Russian Siberia was during Yuan dynasty - ergo Mongol dynasty, they finally toppled over for being Mongols - and then it was remainder of Mongol conquests, not Chinese ones, and they lost it, when they removed Mongols.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 02:13:50 AM
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?

Maybe he is an Oughtist?

Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?

Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?

No?

Apparently not. I didn't find anything in jhkim's post that was unrealistically idealist or patronizing.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 02:31:12 AM
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?

Maybe he is an Oughtist?

Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?

Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?

No?

Apparently not. I didn't find anything in jhkim's post that was unrealistically idealist or patronizing.

War is super cool and fun when you can sit back and sell weapons to other people.

Personally I am surprised that there has not been shipments of go pros sent out with each case of weapons.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 14, 2022, 06:19:31 AM
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?

Maybe he is an Oughtist?

Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?

Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?

No?

Apparently not. I didn't find anything in jhkim's post that was unrealistically idealist or patronizing.
I wasn't referring to Kim's post, I was referring to yours. Which should be obvious, because I mimicked the structure and phrasing you used.

Though looking at it again, I might have misinterpreted your tone.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 14, 2022, 06:21:46 AM
War is super cool and fun when you can sit back and sell weapons to other people.

Personally I am surprised that there has not been shipments of go pros sent out with each case of weapons.
Can we livestream an entire country on TikTok? They should make that a thing. We could log in, zoom in, find a resistance cell, and demand they twerk for our amusement.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 14, 2022, 08:18:56 AM
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.

Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.

But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."

NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about

Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Did you expect a demented old hair-sniffer and an actual whore to do their homework and at least sound intelligent?

Regarding China and 'what does Russia do if China starts biting off chunks of Siberia?', first off China's actually heavily invested into Africa at the moment. Can't see them opening up another front just yet.

Second, that strikes me as a great way to push Putin to start playing with his nuclear toys. The dark irony of WW3 being confined to a Russia-China nuke exchange would probably make me laugh, if I didn't know the repercussions would be an absolute disaster.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 09:47:46 AM
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.

Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.

But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."

NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about

Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Did you expect a demented old hair-sniffer and an actual whore to do their homework and at least sound intelligent?

Y'know. I have been thinking about Regan a lot. Biden is way more gone mentally than Regan ever was, or was even portrayed to be. And this guy is in the position of setting foreign policy, and has his metaphorical finger on the nuclear button.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 11:04:52 AM
Siberia is often wrongly considered a snowy wasteland. This is false. Vladivostok is along the same latitude as Portland.

While you are right that the geography isn't something you can assume, you've chosen a poor example. Vladivostok gets mostly sub-Arctic weather which is much harsher than Portland. When you have a really cold airstream coming off quite cold lands, you can get loads of snow all winter. If you go up north in the province there and look out on the ocean, you can get free floating ice in the winter as well.

But its not Arctic Tundra like people believe. Everything you said about Vladivostok can be said about Boston -- it has more to do with ocean currents than latitude. And the weather in the Northern MidWest of the USA is even harsher during winter. The point is not that Siberia is a sub-tropical paradise with beaches like Mexico, only that it is not a winter wasteland like many believe. It is has been waiting for development, the Russian government has been struggling to get Russians to go and develop it, and so far progress has been slow.

If Russia cannot get Russians to 'Go East Young Man!' and they don't open up the region to legal immigrants from all around the world, then they are going to get stuck with millions of illegal immigrants from China. Which may not be such a bad thing if Russia can assimilate them. That was my point.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 14, 2022, 12:07:30 PM
After watching clips from viral videos of Chinese school children aggressively chanting a list of weapons the Ukraine inherited from the Soviet Union, I think Vladivostok is safe, at least for the near future.

Internationally, China is being somewhat moderate. But on their home turf, the propaganda machine is pushing very hard that Ukraine's at fault for not being self-reliant, and embracing the West. "Big Brother Russia needs to bring Younger Brother Ukraine back home. Younger brother, if you make an error on our principles, I will beat you up! But America has always been in the back playing dirty tricks!" Sounds like a prelude to an invasion of Taiwan, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 14, 2022, 12:29:29 PM
But its not Arctic Tundra like people believe. Everything you said about Vladivostok can be said about Boston -- it has more to do with ocean currents than latitude. And the weather in the Northern MidWest of the USA is even harsher during winter. The point is not that Siberia is a sub-tropical paradise with beaches like Mexico, only that it is not a winter wasteland like many believe. It is has been waiting for development, the Russian government has been struggling to get Russians to go and develop it, and so far progress has been slow.

If Russia cannot get Russians to 'Go East Young Man!' and they don't open up the region to legal immigrants from all around the world, then they are going to get stuck with millions of illegal immigrants from China. Which may not be such a bad thing if Russia can assimilate them. That was my point.
I think people's expectations are set by the imagination and the chilly Russian gulag. It isn't straight up frosty tundra that never seem to thaw out, but its going to be freaking cold much of the year, and really snowy in the winter time. The summers though aren't going to be bad, more like it is in the 'upper' Pacific Northwest and the San Juans (lower Alaska). I spend several years in Hokkaido. Traveling north the distance of the island can take you from freezing to that free floating ice problem through winter and early spring, just like in the region of Vladivostok. Then it gets worse in the Kurils. There used to be quite a big black market trade in used Japanese cars being shipped over to Vladivostok that made some port cities in Hokkaido a bit more...interesting.

The problem though isn't 2-3 weeks of heavy snow and icy streets, but months of both. That puts off even Russians.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 12:38:06 PM

The problem though isn't 2-3 weeks of heavy snow and icy streets, but months of both. That puts off even Russians.

These are Russians, not guys and gals from San Diego. Moscow and St Petersburg are not exactly sunny and warm either. In fact the southern most parts of Siberia are much more pleasant than northern European Russia. I think it is less about weather and more about a cultural lethargy. The 20th Century was not kind to Russia or Russians. I don't think they have psychologically recovered from WW II let alone the damage done by the Soviet Union. Its just damned hard to get them to leave the Russian 'homeland' around the Moscow-St Petersburg axis.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 14, 2022, 12:52:27 PM
These are Russians, not guys and gals from San Diego. Moscow and St Petersburg are not exactly sunny and warm either. In fact the southern most parts of Siberia are much more pleasant than northern European Russia. I think it is less about weather and more about a cultural lethargy. The 20th Century was not kind to Russia or Russians. I don't think they have psychologically recovered from WW II let alone the damage done by the Soviet Union. Its just damned hard to get them to leave the Russian 'homeland' around the Moscow-St Petersburg axis.
Moscow and St Petersburg though aren't as harsh as Siberia, and young Russians aren't their grandparents. They don't necessarily want to live in towns that have been dying since the the Soviet days.

Moscow and St Petersburg are 'culture' cities in Russia and, even if they are really expensive to live in, they offer a lot of opportunity if you have connections. Likewise and back to the topic, there are plenty of not only ethnic Russians but Russian citizens that live in Ukraine for one reason or the other. Some of the cities are quite nice. Most younger urban Ukrainians look at those Baltic countries that have joined the EU and see a life that they want. If you get the right degree and training, you can also earn enough to live pretty well. The cost of living has gone up but it is nothing like those big Russian cities.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 01:04:45 PM
These are Russians, not guys and gals from San Diego. Moscow and St Petersburg are not exactly sunny and warm either. In fact the southern most parts of Siberia are much more pleasant than northern European Russia. I think it is less about weather and more about a cultural lethargy. The 20th Century was not kind to Russia or Russians. I don't think they have psychologically recovered from WW II let alone the damage done by the Soviet Union. Its just damned hard to get them to leave the Russian 'homeland' around the Moscow-St Petersburg axis.
Moscow and St Petersburg though aren't as harsh as Siberia, and young Russians aren't their grandparents. They don't necessarily want to live in towns that have been dying since the the Soviet days.

Moscow and St Petersburg are 'culture' cities in Russia and, even if they are really expensive to live in, they offer a lot of opportunity if you have connections. Likewise and back to the topic, there are plenty of not only ethnic Russians but Russian citizens that live in Ukraine for one reason or the other. Some of the cities are quite nice. Most younger urban Ukrainians look at those Baltic countries that have joined the EU and see a life that they want. If you get the right degree and training, you can also earn enough to live pretty well. The cost of living has gone up but it is nothing like those big Russian cities.

And you keep saying the same thing. And its wrong. Moscow and St Petersburg are brutally cold, and the areas in the southern Siberia are much better weatherwise.

As for Ukraine, I couldn't care less. They are the very opposite of a 'shining example of a growing democracy'. They have mismanaged their country horribly electing or selecting one corrupt government after another. They have a bad history of oppressing ethnic minorities. But ultimately they have shown themselves to be utter fools when acting as a group making one unwise decision after another and then blaming everyone else but themselves. Not admirable at all. Of course you can say the same thing about the USSA. Why I live in Mexico.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 01:05:08 PM
I don't think they have psychologically recovered from WW II let alone the damage done by the Soviet Union.

The reason why russia is so psychologically damaged is a mystery to this day. A guess is that Russias cultural ancestor are the monguls instead of the romans. The damage existed far before WWII. Which if anything exists as somewhat of a element of unifying pride.

As for Ukraine, I couldn't care less. They are the very opposite of a 'shining example of a growing democracy'. They have mismanaged their country horribly electing or selecting one corrupt government after another. They have a bad history of oppressing ethnic minorities. But ultimately they have shown themselves to be utter fools when acting as a group making one unwise decision after another and then blaming everyone else but themselves. Not admirable at all. Of course you can say the same thing about the USSA. Why I live in Mexico.
...Is that meant as kind of a joke on the nature of corruption in every nation?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 01:45:02 PM
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.

Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.

But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."

NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about

Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Did you expect a demented old hair-sniffer and an actual whore to do their homework and at least sound intelligent?

Just a point of order, what do you have against actual whores and why would an actual whore not at least sound intelligent as much as any non-whore? Particularly in this case (though I do not agree she is a whore, I am going with your line of thinking on this) at least a world's top 10 most noteworthy successful whore? I mean we're talking a person who, in your world view, whored her way all the way to the vice presidency of the United States, and you think that's a sign of her lack of intelligence?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 14, 2022, 02:04:29 PM
And you keep saying the same thing. And its wrong. Moscow and St Petersburg are brutally cold, and the areas in the southern Siberia are much better weatherwise.
Except I am not. I didn't say Moscow and St Petersburg aren't cold, but they aren't sub-arctic. There's a difference. Also, that's where any real investment and innovation happens. You don't see a lot of young people wanting to go to Vladivostok for university, do you?

As for Ukraine, I couldn't care less. They are the very opposite of a 'shining example of a growing democracy'. They have mismanaged their country horribly electing or selecting one corrupt government after another. They have a bad history of oppressing ethnic minorities. But ultimately they have shown themselves to be utter fools when acting as a group making one unwise decision after another and then blaming everyone else but themselves. Not admirable at all. Of course you can say the same thing about the USSA. Why I live in Mexico.
If you don't care one way or another, then why are you bothering to comment here?

The Ukraine of the 90s is not the Ukraine of now. They have a ways to go, but shaking out corruption isn't all that easy, especially with Russia meddling.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 02:39:05 PM
No Ukraine is corrupt as hell all by itself. But nobody there voted for a war with Russia.

The eastern side of Russia is more friendly with it, so what Putin is doing is quite literally killing all his popular support in Ukraine.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 04:58:33 PM
And you keep saying the same thing. And its wrong. Moscow and St Petersburg are brutally cold, and the areas in the southern Siberia are much better weatherwise.
Except I am not. I didn't say Moscow and St Petersburg aren't cold, but they aren't sub-arctic. There's a difference. Also, that's where any real investment and innovation happens. You don't see a lot of young people wanting to go to Vladivostok for university, do you?

As for Ukraine, I couldn't care less. They are the very opposite of a 'shining example of a growing democracy'. They have mismanaged their country horribly electing or selecting one corrupt government after another. They have a bad history of oppressing ethnic minorities. But ultimately they have shown themselves to be utter fools when acting as a group making one unwise decision after another and then blaming everyone else but themselves. Not admirable at all. Of course you can say the same thing about the USSA. Why I live in Mexico.
If you don't care one way or another, then why are you bothering to comment here?

The Ukraine of the 90s is not the Ukraine of now. They have a ways to go, but shaking out corruption isn't all that easy, especially with Russia meddling.

hahaha.. particularly not with Hunter and Joe Biden meddling... If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 05:56:15 PM
If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.

While I find this deeply ignorant, at least its honest.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:04:52 PM
If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.

While I find this deeply ignorant, at least its honest.

Get past the Mainstream Media coverage. Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country. I am not pro-Russia, but I am sure as hell not pro-Ukraine. It is only good for Western politicians to launder their money.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:06:18 PM
And you keep saying the same thing. And its wrong. Moscow and St Petersburg are brutally cold, and the areas in the southern Siberia are much better weatherwise.
Except I am not. I didn't say Moscow and St Petersburg aren't cold, but they aren't sub-arctic. There's a difference. Also, that's where any real investment and innovation happens. You don't see a lot of young people wanting to go to Vladivostok for university, do you?

As for Ukraine, I couldn't care less. They are the very opposite of a 'shining example of a growing democracy'. They have mismanaged their country horribly electing or selecting one corrupt government after another. They have a bad history of oppressing ethnic minorities. But ultimately they have shown themselves to be utter fools when acting as a group making one unwise decision after another and then blaming everyone else but themselves. Not admirable at all. Of course you can say the same thing about the USSA. Why I live in Mexico.
If you don't care one way or another, then why are you bothering to comment here?

The Ukraine of the 90s is not the Ukraine of now. They have a ways to go, but shaking out corruption isn't all that easy, especially with Russia meddling.

hahaha.. particularly not with Hunter and Joe Biden meddling... If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.

Oh look, a little commie stooge. What a shock.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:07:04 PM
If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.

While I find this deeply ignorant, at least its honest.

Get past the Mainstream Media coverage. Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country. I am not pro-Russia, but I am sure as hell not pro-Ukraine. It is only good for Western politicians to launder their money.

He's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:19:42 PM
If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.

While I find this deeply ignorant, at least its honest.

Get past the Mainstream Media coverage. Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country. I am not pro-Russia, but I am sure as hell not pro-Ukraine. It is only good for Western politicians to launder their money.

He's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.

Then he knows what I am saying is true. He may not like it, but that don't make it false. There has been a lot of things wrong happening in Ukraine. The EU Associates Agreement economically crippled Ukraine, Molodova, and Georgia. The fake talk about Ukraine becoming part of NATO... not good. The US encouraging the current regime to 'go down in flames' before allowing the information about the US politicians criminal behavior in Ukraine to come out. The current Ukrainian government is a disgrace... just a bunch of corrupt puppets working for some criminal oligarchs.

I understand how Ukrainians don't like to here these truths. Just like I don't like to hear the truths about the USSA. It hurts me. But I accept the truth. So should Ukrainians.

But what do I know. I used to live in Georgia before the BeerBug, traveled across all of Eastern Europe on business and pleasure, and I have clients right now in Ukraine (and some who have escaped from the country in order to avoid being conscripted into the Ukrainian military). I don't trust anything I am hearing. Its all lies. Perhaps when this is all over we will get some truth, but I doubt even then.  TTFN. Have a lovely day! :)
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:23:35 PM


hahaha.. particularly not with Hunter and Joe Biden meddling... If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.

Oh look, a little commie stooge. What a shock.
[/quote]

HHAHAHA! Did someone say something that hoooort your wittle fweeelling Mistwell??? Then that person must be a [FILLIN THE BLANK ACCORDING TO WHICH TYPE OF RETARD YOU ARE]. I may be wrong -- I certainly have been wrong before --  but I would like to think I am just a tiny bit smarter than accusing anyone who disagrees with me of being a 'commie stooge...'

Hahahahahaha! What a retard you. But you are entertaining. Thanks for the laugh! :)
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 06:25:39 PM
Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country.
So the people there deserve subjegation or death?

I used to live in Georgia before the BeerBug, traveled across all of Eastern Europe on business and pleasure, and I have clients right now in Ukraine (and some who have escaped from the country in order to avoid being conscripted into the Ukrainian military).
Man those whacky Ukrainians. Conscripting civilians for SOME reason.  ;D

He's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.
Nah, not a stooge, just a moron or a troll. Who unironically says he lives in MEXICO to avoid governmental corruption.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:26:45 PM
If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.

While I find this deeply ignorant, at least its honest.

Get past the Mainstream Media coverage. Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country. I am not pro-Russia, but I am sure as hell not pro-Ukraine. It is only good for Western politicians to launder their money.

He's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.

Then he knows what I am saying is true. He may not like it, but that don't make it false. There has been a lot of things wrong happening in Ukraine. The EU Associates Agreement economically crippled Ukraine, Molodova, and Georgia. The fake talk about Ukraine becoming part of NATO... not good. The US encouraging the current regime to 'go down in flames' before allowing the information about the US politicians criminal behavior in Ukraine to come out. The current Ukrainian government is a disgrace... just a bunch of corrupt puppets working for some criminal oligarchs.

I understand how Ukrainians don't like to here these truths. Just like I don't like to hear the truths about the USSA. It hurts me. But I accept the truth. So should Ukrainians.

But what do I know. I used to live in Georgia before the BeerBug, traveled across all of Eastern Europe on business and pleasure, and I have clients right now in Ukraine (and some who have escaped from the country in order to avoid being conscripted into the Ukrainian military). I don't trust anything I am hearing. Its all lies. Perhaps when this is all over we will get some truth, but I doubt even then.  TTFN. Have a lovely day! :)

You're literally repeating FSB propaganda right from RT.

Of course Ukraine is not perfect. Nobody here said or implied otherwise. But they're not nearly as bad as you're making them out to be - and the idea they are worse than Russia in these regards is absurd. But you are in fact following exactly the party line right now that the propaganda unit has been putting out in Russia.  You don't trust anything you're hearing, except apparently Russian propaganda which you gleefully spread and apparently have no doubts about whatsoever.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: DocJones on March 14, 2022, 06:27:29 PM
Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
As a wargamer, yes!  I'm anticipating the board game or possibly an Advanced Squad Leader module. ;-)
In the real world, no.

Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:28:11 PM


hahaha.. particularly not with Hunter and Joe Biden meddling... If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.

Quote
Oh look, a little commie stooge. What a shock.

HHAHAHA! Did someone say something that hoooort your wittle fweeelling Mistwell??? Then that person must be a [FILLIN THE BLANK ACCORDING TO WHICH TYPE OF RETARD YOU ARE]. I may be wrong -- I certainly have been wrong before --  but I would like to think I am just a tiny bit smarter than accusing anyone who disagrees with me of being a 'commie stooge...'

Hahahahahaha! What a retard you. But you are entertaining. Thanks for the laugh! :)

You're repeating FSB propaganda nearly word for word. You're either too stupid to realize what you're reading is from them, or a stooge for them. Take your pick.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:31:16 PM
Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country.
So the people there deserve subjegation or death?

I used to live in Georgia before the BeerBug, traveled across all of Eastern Europe on business and pleasure, and I have clients right now in Ukraine (and some who have escaped from the country in order to avoid being conscripted into the Ukrainian military).
Man those whacky Ukrainians. Conscripting civilians for SOME reason.  ;D

He's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.
Nah, not a stooge, just a moron or a troll. Who unironically says he lives in MEXICO to avoid governmental corruption.

Yes. I do! Because Mexico is less corrupt than the USSA, Ukraine, and Russia. Hopefully someday I can return to my home in Georgia, but I am rather concerned that too many Georgians are looking at Ukraine as an example of how to behave and not a dire warning. I think I shall wait to see if the Georgians come to some agreement with the Russians or decide that they too want to 'go down in flames'.

You guys do like calling people names. That does no reflect very well on either of you... particularly since you are incapable of responding to the factual statements I made with anything other than personal insults. I must conclude that I am right and you are both dead wrong... one is an idiot consuming too much propaganda and war porn, and the other is desperate to believe his country is not a corrupt joke (I am extremely sympathetic to that because I am desperate from my country the USSA to not be a a corrupt joke -- perhaps I am more realistic, or just more cynical). Take care, and keep throwing around those cheap insults. They just make you look stupid.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:32:30 PM


hahaha.. particularly not with Hunter and Joe Biden meddling... If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.

Quote
Oh look, a little commie stooge. What a shock.

HHAHAHA! Did someone say something that hoooort your wittle fweeelling Mistwell??? Then that person must be a [FILLIN THE BLANK ACCORDING TO WHICH TYPE OF RETARD YOU ARE]. I may be wrong -- I certainly have been wrong before --  but I would like to think I am just a tiny bit smarter than accusing anyone who disagrees with me of being a 'commie stooge...'

Hahahahahaha! What a retard you. But you are entertaining. Thanks for the laugh! :)

You're repeating FSB propaganda nearly word for word. You're either too stupid to realize what you're reading is from them, or a stooge for them. Take your pick.

Where could I find that FSB propaganda???? You seem to be an expert at it! Again, keep up the stupid comments. I might be wrong, but you are proving yourself to be an idiot. I will hopefully learn from my errors. I doubt you ever do.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 06:35:47 PM
Yes. I do! Because Mexico is less corrupt than the USSA, Ukraine, and Russia.

Well that puts everything into perspective. Tubular rad bro, you totally got all of us. I must bow down to your superior wisdom dude.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:38:53 PM
Yes. I do! Because Mexico is less corrupt than the USSA, Ukraine, and Russia.

Well that puts everything into perspective. Tubular rad bro, you totally got all of us. I must bow down to your superior wisdom dude.

I am not putting any long term faith in Mexico. It could turn to shit in a day. But until that time comes I will enjoy the good life. I hope you do too where every that may be!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:15:33 PM
Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country.
So the people there deserve subjegation or death?

I dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?

Dood!
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 10:27:53 PM
I dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:42:08 PM
I dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.

Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 10:49:53 PM
Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
Im not delusional about Ukraines situation. Ukrainians are for the right to exit the fire and get back in the frying pan.
But I guess when it really does effect you more directly, a situation just isn't as funny.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 11:10:10 PM
Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
Im not delusional about Ukraines situation. Ukrainians are for the right to exit the fire and get back in the frying pan.
But I guess when it really does effect you more directly, a situation just isn't as funny.

No. I don't think it is funny at all. I think it is all tragic. I have some property in Georgia. I would like to go back there and enjoy my old age in peace there. I don't want this shit to happen to Georgia. I wish it was not happening to Ukraine. Best of luck. My prayers go with you and your family, as they do to all my friends in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 11:15:51 PM
Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
Im not delusional about Ukraines situation. Ukrainians are for the right to exit the fire and get back in the frying pan.
But I guess when it really does effect you more directly, a situation just isn't as funny.

How hot does your frying pan have to get?

You should have gone for quid pro quo with Trump instead of Brandon.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 11:41:16 PM
I dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.

Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.

Maybe consider trolling him a tad less then?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 11:44:27 PM
Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country.
So the people there deserve subjegation or death?

I used to live in Georgia before the BeerBug, traveled across all of Eastern Europe on business and pleasure, and I have clients right now in Ukraine (and some who have escaped from the country in order to avoid being conscripted into the Ukrainian military).
Man those whacky Ukrainians. Conscripting civilians for SOME reason.  ;D

He's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.
Nah, not a stooge, just a moron or a troll. Who unironically says he lives in MEXICO to avoid governmental corruption.

Yes. I do! Because Mexico is less corrupt than the USSA, Ukraine, and Russia.

Damn dude, I knew the ganja was powerful in Mexico but I didn't realize just how powerful. I am surprised you can figure out which letters on your keyboard are which.

I mean seriously, pick any objective indicators of government corruption (not your own experience, which is obviously in the getting high category) and show me how Mexico ranks better than the other three. This should be good.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: HappyDaze on March 15, 2022, 12:17:07 AM
I dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.

Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
He says in sarcastic black type.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shasarak on March 15, 2022, 12:43:38 AM
I dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.

Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
He says in sarcastic black type.

Good on ya, mate.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 15, 2022, 06:46:19 AM
I think we can all agree that what's happening in Ukraine is bad, but at least it's not New Zealand.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 11:49:38 AM
I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. …

In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.

The status quo as it was on may 23rd is what Russia claimed as a Casus Belli to invade. I don't see how going back to that is a long term solution to anything.

Plus going back to the “status quo” is moot anyway.

In my opinion, the problem here is How do we kick Russia out without going to WW3?

We can’t.

Sanctions? From everything I’m seeing Russia has prepared for this and they will not affect them quite as badly as Brandon’s handlers thought.

Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.

So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.


I agree that it sucks for the Ukrainians. So what do you suggest is best to do for the Ukrainians right now? …

Give to quality Humanitarian Charities like you suggested is really the only thing to do right now aside from wait and hope we don’t wind up in WW3.


...
Is it just me or does it seem that the US is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?

Yes. Absolutely. It is obvious.

The current Elites running our country would see it as a good thing if Russia gets bogged down in an Afghanistan insurgency situation.

But what would save the most innocent Ukrainian lives in the long run?

Well, Russia is all-in on this. Whether you agree with them or not, they saw the situation in Ukraine as an existential security threat, which is why they invaded.

The clear life saving option would be for the West to convince Z to surrender, and cut a deal with Russia for a neutral Ukraine.

That would save actual lives.

What is the West doing?

Sending Billions in weapons.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 12:56:42 PM
Well Russia (or putin and his cronies) see Ukraine as wanting to return to Russia. He is irrational and delusional, which is why I don’t 100% believe in a fast surrender.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 17, 2022, 02:57:31 PM
Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.

So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You have a lot more faith than I do in the world's leaders.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 17, 2022, 03:00:40 PM
I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. …

In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.

The status quo as it was on may 23rd is what Russia claimed as a Casus Belli to invade. I don't see how going back to that is a long term solution to anything.

Plus going back to the “status quo” is moot anyway.

In my opinion, the problem here is How do we kick Russia out without going to WW3?

We can’t.

This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 17, 2022, 03:10:29 PM
This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 17, 2022, 03:18:37 PM
This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.

Pat, do you disagree with what I said or did you think that snark was helpful in some fashion beyond the entertainment value of snark? To be clear, I am not denigrating the entertainment value of snark. Just checking on your intent here.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: jhkim on March 17, 2022, 04:40:27 PM
I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. …

In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.

The status quo as it was on may 23rd is what Russia claimed as a Casus Belli to invade. I don't see how going back to that is a long term solution to anything.

Plus going back to the “status quo” is moot anyway.

In my opinion, the problem here is How do we kick Russia out without going to WW3?

We can’t.

Sanctions? From everything I’m seeing Russia has prepared for this and they will not affect them quite as badly as Brandon’s handlers thought.

Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.

So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You're speaking as if it's all-or-nothing. Either the world militarily forces Russia out immediately, or we do nothing. But from the perspective of incentives, that's not the case. The more adversity Russia goes through because of its invasion, the less attractive invasion will appear to all other would-be conquerors. Even if the Russians ultimately succeed, what matters is the cost. The higher the price tag is, the less likely that others will want to buy it.

This will have major implication not only for the other former Soviet states, but also for Taiwan, Western Sahara, South Korea, and many other regions. If the world's response is to do nothing and encourage surrender to the invader, then all sorts of countries will see that conquest is profitable. Contrary to your assertion, I think the economic sanction do have an effect. They won't magically take out Russia's armies, but they strongly affect how profitable the war is -- which goes into the calculus of whether Russia or other countries will attempt more such invasions in the future.


Is it just me or does it seem that the US is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?

Yes. Absolutely. It is obvious.

The current Elites running our country would see it as a good thing if Russia gets bogged down in an Afghanistan insurgency situation.

But what would save the most innocent Ukrainian lives in the long run?
Well, Russia is all-in on this. Whether you agree with them or not, they saw the situation in Ukraine as an existential security threat, which is why they invaded.

The clear life saving option would be for the West to convince Z to surrender, and cut a deal with Russia for a neutral Ukraine.

I don't think it is clear that surrender saves lives in the long run -- just like how paying terrorists what they want doesn't save lives in the long run. Putin isn't honest and good-hearted and just wanting to protect Russia. He is engaged in this war for *profit*, not for defense. Giving him what he wants isn't going to make the world safer by appeasing him. It will send a clear signal that invasions for profit are allowed and encouraged.

You and Shasarak are speaking as if the only reason that the Ukrainians are fighting is because the American elites are telling them to, which I think is bullshit. The Ukrainians are fighting because it's their country. If they want to surrender, I wouldn't blame them - but if they want to fight, then I think they should be supported.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 04:52:05 PM
Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.

So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You have a lot more faith than I do in the world's leaders.

I do have some Hope that they won't go full retard and do shit like a "No Fly Zone" over Ukraine.

Admittedly, their current temper tantrum of shipping more weapons and "aid" into Ukraine is certainly not helping matters at all!



This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.

He seems to extrapolate/read more from people's posts than what they actually wrote.

He then restates his extrapolation as if you had used those exact words yourself, and then proceeds to argue against it.

I am not the only poster in this thread, let alone this site, to experience this.


"Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3" - Ummm yeah, that's actually what I expect to eventually happen if the West does not lose its mind...


On "Russia pulling back from Ukraine":

Russia wants regime change in Ukraine. As I stated in reply # 51 of this thread. I would also assume that they would eventually pull back if Z surrendered, and gives Putin everything he wants. I very much doubt that Z would remain in power however.

Russia will pull out of Ukraine when they feel that they have done what they have set out to accomplish, more or less (Negotiations ongoing etc..)

In my opinion: Russia does not want to permanently occupy Ukraine. They want it as a neutralish buffer state between them and NATO. And they will recognize the Donbass republics as a new country - for however long that lasts. I don't know the ultimate fate of the people in the Donbass.

Do I believe that Russia will pull back from Ukraine do to the Sanctions, or by some miracle, being militarily defeated by the Ukrainians?

No. Russia is all-in on this.


On "No WW3":

I certainly hope so. And nowhere in my posts have I said that WW3 is going to happen.

I am concerned about it. Because this war is very dangerous and could easily spiral out of control.

The current crop of Elites running the US/West are idiots, and acting all kinds of stupid.

Everyone should be concerned.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: SHARK on March 17, 2022, 05:20:40 PM
Greetings!

Yeah, "Status Quo". Fuck that. We aren't going back to any kind of "Status Quo". 300,000 Russian troops and President Vladimir Putin have made sure that the EU and America now gets to shut the fuck up and listen to what Russia says. The Russians are indeed all-in on ensuring that their Ukrainian border is secure, whether we like it or not. Unfortunately for the ordinary Ukrainian people caught up in this fucking international game of cock-measuring, profit-mongering, and political corruption, they certainly won't be going back to any kind of "Status Quo".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 05:45:07 PM
At this point Russia can’t have a functional Regime in Ukraine without an occupation.
Its one thing to knock over one puppet for another. Its another to murder your people and expect them to like you.
The Ukrainian army has deserted for Russia before (the navy in crimea). They didn’t this time even when given the opportunity.

Nobody in Ukraine likes Zelensky. If Russia bombed him in his sleep, it would be one tjing. But Russia has made itself an existential threat of Ukraine. Whatever Putins plan was, I get the sense that this wasn’t it.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: DocJones on March 17, 2022, 05:49:43 PM
Even if the Russians ultimately succeed, what matters is the cost. The higher the price tag is, the less likely that others will want to buy it.
The USA is spending billions and billions to defend this corrupt country.
/I'm paying for it.   My neighbors are paying for it.  I don't want to.   
Clearly no lessons have been learned here.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 17, 2022, 05:59:25 PM
Nobody in Ukraine likes Zelensky. If Russia bombed him in his sleep, it would be one tjing. But Russia has made itself an existential threat of Ukraine. Whatever Putins plan was, I get the sense that this wasn’t it.

I don't think that's entirely true. Some of my colleagues really thought he was a joke at first and would roll over, and all things considered, the guy was a comedian. But some also are appreciating that he hasn't turned out to be the joke they originally thought he was.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 06:06:00 PM
I don't think that's entirely true.
Well I mean he most certainly got some points by not just running or rolling over, but before this everybody knew him for the corrupt censorious toad he was.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 06:23:55 PM

I don't think it is clear that surrender saves lives in the long run -- just like how paying terrorists what they want doesn't save lives in the long run. Putin isn't honest and good-hearted and just wanting to protect Russia. He is engaged in this war for *profit*, not for defense. Giving him what he wants isn't going to make the world safer by appeasing him. It will send a clear signal that invasions for profit are allowed and encouraged.

In my opinion:

The people currently running the US are not honest or good-hearted and just wanting to protect Ukraine...

Their interests have been demonstrably shown to be interventionist, self-serving, and corrupt.

And if anyone has been sending signals to the world that wars for profit are Ok; for the past thirty years it has been the US.



You and Shasarak are speaking as if the only reason that the Ukrainians are fighting is because the American elites are telling them to, which I think is bullshit. The Ukrainians are fighting because it's their country. If they want to surrender, I wouldn't blame them - but if they want to fight, then I think they should be supported.

It is not the only reason. But Americas continued lies and false promises of some theoretical victory by our out of control propaganda are a factor.

I don't blame them for fighting for their country. It is the natural thing to do.

But they fought. And in my opinion, we are at the point that nothing the West can give them will stave off the inevitable.

Forcibly conscripting all adult males, and passing out weapons to untrained civilians are not signs that things have gone their way...

All their trained armed forces are split up. They are all completely surrounded in different pockets throughout the country. And they are slowly running out of supplies with no ability to get more. Russian armed forces have surrounded some of the major cities and are laying siege.

That is the current situation as I understand it.

What conventional weapon system we can give to them that will suddenly turn the tide here?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 06:39:15 PM
It is not the only reason. But Americas continued lies and false promises of some theoretical victory by our out of control propaganda are a factor.

Im not the ultimate boots on the ground warrior, but I think your overvaluate what Ukrainians think of USAs propaganda. Zelenksy mocking Russia was the factor of thinking NATO would immediatly have his back. So in that sense he has possibly made it worse alongside of NATO and the west. But the avarage person living in the Ukraine doesn't have immediate internet access at all.

I don't really know why Ukrainians are fighting. When this began I thought it would be over in a week or less. Ukraine wasn't a place everybody really wanted to be. One of the lowest brith rates on the planet.

Im guessing there is a sense that there isn't much to gain from a surrender in the long term. If they surrender now and promise to turn belly up, what happens when Putin feels like he needs a win and does this again? What happens if he feels like he needs troops stationed in West Ukraine to show up the west? Or says 'I don't like this EU trade deal, stop it'.
Ukraine has a history of taking abuse from Russia to a genocidal degree.

But do I see victory? No. But I don't see Russia really winning either. It doesn't have the economy to pump into an occupation or bribing the country into an illusion of liking Russia. You can't have a puppet state when the avarage civilian genuinly and utterly HATES you.

Edit: My Father is however boots on the ground in the Russian economy. Russia is prepared to wait this out economically in a very short term only.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Redwanderer on March 17, 2022, 06:42:47 PM
These people got screwed as bad as Poland. No matter who won ww2 they lost.


Millions of Ukranian christians  got murdered around ww2 it was called the Holodomor. We were supporting those commie bastards who never did anything for anyone else. But I guess that and this damned pandemic weren't enough.

Good luck you guys in Ukraine. I'll hope the best for you this St. Patrick's day.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Redwanderer on March 17, 2022, 06:46:23 PM
It is not the only reason. But Americas continued lies and false promises of some theoretical victory by our out of control propaganda are a factor.

Im not the ultimate boots on the ground warrior, but I think your overvaluate what Ukrainians think of USAs propaganda. Zelenksy mocking Russia was the factor of thinking NATO would immediatly have his back. So in that sense he has possibly made it worse alongside of NATO and the west. But the avarage person living in the Ukraine doesn't have immediate internet access at all.

I don't really know why Ukrainians are fighting. When this began I thought it would be over in a week or less. Ukraine wasn't a place everybody really wanted to be. One of the lowest brith rates on the planet.

Im guessing there is a sense that there isn't much to gain from a surrender in the long term. If they surrender now and promise to turn belly up, what happens when Putin feels like he needs a win and does this again? What happens if he feels like he needs troops stationed in West Ukraine to show up the west? Or says 'I don't like this EU trade deal, stop it'.
Ukraine has a history of taking abuse from Russia to a genocidal degree.

But do I see victory? No. But I don't see Russia really winning either. It doesn't have the economy to pump into an occupation or bribing the country into an illusion of liking Russia. You can't have a puppet state when the avarage civilian genuinly and utterly HATES you.

Edit: My Father is however boots on the ground in the Russian economy. Russia is prepared to wait this out economically in a very short term only.


Nobody thought the Civil War would last.

Nobody thought a dime-a-dozen assassination of a guy called Ferdinand would matter- then it was World War 1.

Nobody really thought Japan was dangerous in China. Until they took it over.

You look at history and before any big mess everything seemed normal just a few years before.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Lynn on March 17, 2022, 07:09:37 PM
Well I mean he most certainly got some points by not just running or rolling over, but before this everybody knew him for the corrupt censorious toad he was.

After I read your comment I asked my long time colleague and friend in Kherson if his opinion had changed since he was online. Many of my older generation contacts were extremely skeptical of him (and because of so many not great ones before this one) after he was elected and thought he'd roll over immediately to Russia.  Anyway, my colleague mentioned that _NOW_ he seems more like a real politician, but that he also has a strange obsession to meet with Putin himself, even though it is thought they had met in 2019 in France.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 17, 2022, 07:44:30 PM
This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.

Pat, do you disagree with what I said or did you think that snark was helpful in some fashion beyond the entertainment value of snark? To be clear, I am not denigrating the entertainment value of snark. Just checking on your intent here.
I disagree, but I addressed that in another post. In this one, I was pointing out that you're attacking the person, not the argument.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 17, 2022, 08:15:32 PM
Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.

So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You have a lot more faith than I do in the world's leaders.

I do have some Hope that they won't go full retard and do shit like a "No Fly Zone" over Ukraine.

Admittedly, their current temper tantrum of shipping more weapons and "aid" into Ukraine is certainly not helping matters at all!
Reminds me a lot of the worries about the first atomic bomb test. The scientists were concerned it could set off an uncontrolled chain reaction in the atmosphere. It got bumped up the chain of command, rejected, and the nucleomagicians made a small sun appear over Trinity.

Studies since have suggested such a chain reaction is impossible. They were worried over nothing. But they didn't know that, at the time. While it was a fringe theory and they were pretty confident it wouldn't happen, they weren't sure.

What if they were wrong? Then the Earth's atmosphere would have exploded, and every human being, every animal, and every plant would have died.

That's why it was the wrong call. A slim chance isn't zero, and we need the chances to be as close to zero as possible, when the potential downside is the end of the human race. Roll the dice once, and we're probably fine. A thousand times, and we might still be good. But how many millions or billions of years of future does the human race have? How many times will we roll those dice? Getting it wrong just once could end everything.

Why did they make that call? Human reasons. Pressure to get the job done. Delight in seeing one's work put to the test, instead of shelved forever. The exigencies of war, bureaucracy, psychology, and the culture of science. But most of all, we're just terrible at making risk assessments around existential threats. We apply our normal, everyday human standards, but that's the wrong framework. And it's the framework even non-foolish (I dream) politicians and scientists use.

I don't think it's likely the happy fun armored conga line in the Ukraine could lead to WW3, and I think there's a vanishingly small chance a no-fly zone could escalate into blossoms of hard radiation and heat over major world capitols. And most nuclear outcomes aren't that bad, when compared to human extinction. Even if it clusterfucks on top of clusterfucks and we bomb ourselves back to the Stone Age, that's just a setback of a few thousand years. In the cosmological scheme of things, it barely qualifies as a blip.

But there is a chance, and it's not pushed as far down toward zero as possible. Which should worry us.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 17, 2022, 08:33:24 PM
This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.

He seems to extrapolate/read more from people's posts than what they actually wrote.

He then restates his extrapolation as if you had used those exact words yourself, and then proceeds to argue against it.

I am not the only poster in this thread, let alone this site, to experience this.
I'm constantly told what I believe by posters on this site, who demand I defend the fictitious positions they made up for me.

99% of the time it's not Mistwell.

Point it out when it happens, but don't pretend it's the fault of a single person. In this age of partisan bad faith and hubris, it's almost omnipresent.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 17, 2022, 08:38:10 PM

I don't really know why Ukrainians are fighting. When this began I thought it would be over in a week or less. Ukraine wasn't a place everybody really wanted to be. One of the lowest brith rates on the planet.
I think we should call the inevitable baby boom Putin's Baby Bump.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 11:08:21 PM
Well if this is true (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60785754), this seems like a OK way out. This depends entirely on the amount of territory Russia wants. If Ukraine can get a security guaruntee from NATO, I think this would be alright. So Ukraine would be a part of NATO, just in a way Putin can tell himself was a win. Id be honestly really happy with an arrangement that placates Putin and ensures that Ukraine just can't get invaded again.

I just REALLY, hope this isn't a ploy to waste time by Putin.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 17, 2022, 11:20:37 PM
Well if this is true (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60785754), this seems like a OK way out. This depends entirely on the amount of territory Russia wants. If Ukraine can get a security guaruntee from NATO, I think this would be alright. So Ukraine would be a part of NATO, just in a way Putin can tell himself was a win. Id be honestly really happy with an arrangement that placates Putin and ensures that Ukraine just can't get invaded again.

I just REALLY, hope this isn't a ploy to waste time by Putin.
Turkey playing the intermediary is weird, but better than China.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 11:25:52 PM
Turkey playing the intermediary is weird, but better than China.

It is, but I seriously just want the fighting to end. If Putin can say 'And I made Ukraine De-Nazify!' to his base, then fuck it, let him have that Phyrric victory while he sits apon an economy he has sabotaged for the next 5-20 years.

My biggest hope is that Ukraine also takes this as somewhat of a win, and maybe gets some public unity out of this for once. Managing to eek out anything out of Russia is still impressive. Foriegn support or not, failure on Russia or not, somebody had to stand up and face the Russian army, which is what I thought no Ukrainian civilian or army man had the guts to do.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Mistwell on March 18, 2022, 01:13:15 AM

Nobody in Ukraine likes Zelensky. If Russia bombed him in his sleep, it would be one tjing. But Russia has made itself an existential threat of Ukraine. Whatever Putins plan was, I get the sense that this wasn’t it.

From 8 days ago, "Eighty-eight percent of Ukrainians said they are favorable toward President Volodymyr Zelensky"

He wasn't very popular a few months ago. Now? He's very popular. I think you might be a tad behind the times on that one.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: HappyDaze on March 18, 2022, 11:51:31 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Putin, is that you?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 18, 2022, 11:58:53 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis
Yeah, one day for no reason at all, the hordes of neo-nazis where about to invade Russia with their almost complete army of nuclear squids, and then the poor Russians had no choice to retaliate. And then the neo nazis started grinding up baby organs into bullets. And blowing up their own buildings out of spite.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 12:10:31 PM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Links plz.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Pat on March 18, 2022, 12:31:02 PM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis
Yeah, one day for no reason at all, the hordes of neo-nazis where about to invade Russia with their almost complete army of nuclear squids, and then the poor Russians had no choice to retaliate. And then the neo nazis started grinding up baby organs into bullets. And blowing up their own buildings out of spite.
An invasion of nuclear squids using baby organ bullets? I'd play that game.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: HappyDaze on March 18, 2022, 12:46:29 PM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis
Yeah, one day for no reason at all, the hordes of neo-nazis where about to invade Russia with their almost complete army of nuclear squids, and then the poor Russians had no choice to retaliate. And then the neo nazis started grinding up baby organs into bullets. And blowing up their own buildings out of spite.
An invasion of nuclear squids using baby organ bullets? I'd play that game.
IIRV, there was something like that in Battlelords of the 23rd Century.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 12:54:29 PM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.

Are you professionally this obtuse or is it just a hobby for you?
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 18, 2022, 01:23:21 PM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.

Are you professionally this obtuse or is it just a hobby for you?

So what is your response to the actual content of his comment???? Are you capable of responding to the actual statement, or only making insults and calling someone names? Asking for a friend.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 02:16:10 PM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.

Are you professionally this obtuse or is it just a hobby for you?

So what is your response to the actual content of his comment???? Are you capable of responding to the actual statement, or only making insults and calling someone names? Asking for a friend.

Tell your "friend" that if "he" is unable to figure out the meaning of my response then he must be quite deficient in the intellectual department. Also ask "him" why he singles out me when Shrieking Banshee replys sarcastically and HD is the one with actual name-calling.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: squirewaldo on March 18, 2022, 02:19:42 PM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.

Are you professionally this obtuse or is it just a hobby for you?

So what is your response to the actual content of his comment???? Are you capable of responding to the actual statement, or only making insults and calling someone names? Asking for a friend.

Tell your "friend" that if "he" is unable to figure out the meaning of my response then he must be quite deficient in the intellectual department. Also ask "him" why he singles out me when Shrieking Banshee replys sarcastically and HD is the one with actual name-calling.

So you cannot respond to the actual content of a comment... only insults and name calling. Ok. Got it.
Title: Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
Post by: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 02:37:08 PM