The shit pot is being stirred, hard and fast.
It has more or less been a war since 2014. Russia just decided to make a big move sensing weakness in geopolitical adversaries (especially the countries that like to spend all their time lamenting how terrible their founders were and how terrible their societal structures are) and the calculated likelihood it could bring Ukraine or a large swatch of it back to mother Russia.
I have no idea how successful Russia will be in that endeavor. I suspect it is the beginning of some other activity around the globe, China is up next with their big move. I hope all these moves are resolved in ways that have the smallest loss of life and destruction. The ripples from these events once they happen are going to be felt for decades.
I do see on interesting thing in a lot of the CNN clips. They keep showing, and talking about how Ukraine is passing out AKs to the civilians and how great that is to arm the population. That sure seems counter to the usual talk from CNN (civilians can not fight an army, no need for firearms owned by the public, firearm ownership is for hunting, etc) regarding the "people" and firearms. I have no idea how much firearms experience the average Ukrainian has, so that might make for interesting results. It looks like Ukraine is hoping to get civilians killed for propaganda after the fact though.
Half the country would prefer to unify with russia and the military either pussied out or was bribed.
Its a full on war with generally low casualties because there are few military folk actually fighting.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 25, 2022, 08:18:12 AM
It looks like Ukraine is hoping to get civilians killed for propaganda after the fact though.
Do not forget this, because it is correct and accurate
I don't think that the Ukraine will go down quietly.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/ukraine-strikes-back-against-russia-as-chaos-continues-to-unfold/news-story/9e1eb73d6e9c8b4968e0a1808a3d57df
I have some Russian artists in my news feed and a lot of them are posting that this act is the will of Putin, but not that of the Russian people.
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 25, 2022, 11:34:50 AM
I don't think that the Ukraine will go down quietly.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/ukraine-strikes-back-against-russia-as-chaos-continues-to-unfold/news-story/9e1eb73d6e9c8b4968e0a1808a3d57df
I have some Russian artists in my news feed and a lot of them are posting that this act is the will of Putin, but not that of the Russian people.
Not too many wars are the will of the people. I would hazard to say almost NO war is the will of the people. It takes massive propaganda and often lies to get a population behind sending their young, strong, brave men to die on other people's dirt. I have no idea as to the Ukrainian capability to repel Russia. However it turns out, will be a ripple effect across the globe.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 25, 2022, 11:44:53 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 25, 2022, 11:34:50 AM
I don't think that the Ukraine will go down quietly.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/ukraine-strikes-back-against-russia-as-chaos-continues-to-unfold/news-story/9e1eb73d6e9c8b4968e0a1808a3d57df
I have some Russian artists in my news feed and a lot of them are posting that this act is the will of Putin, but not that of the Russian people.
Not too many wars are the will of the people. I would hazard to say almost NO war is the will of the people. It takes massive propaganda and often lies to get a population behind sending their young, strong, brave men to die on other people's dirt. I have no idea as to the Ukrainian capability to repel Russia. However it turns out, will be a ripple effect across the globe.
That's true.
It's also true that the main argument in favor of giving government the ability to print money is it's necessary for the government to raise sufficient funds, when there is a threat of war, because if they tried to raise taxes high enough to actually pay for the the war, the populace wouldn't support it.
Makes you wonder.
Quote from: Pat on February 25, 2022, 12:17:23 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 25, 2022, 11:44:53 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 25, 2022, 11:34:50 AM
I don't think that the Ukraine will go down quietly.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/ukraine-strikes-back-against-russia-as-chaos-continues-to-unfold/news-story/9e1eb73d6e9c8b4968e0a1808a3d57df
I have some Russian artists in my news feed and a lot of them are posting that this act is the will of Putin, but not that of the Russian people.
Not too many wars are the will of the people. I would hazard to say almost NO war is the will of the people. It takes massive propaganda and often lies to get a population behind sending their young, strong, brave men to die on other people's dirt. I have no idea as to the Ukrainian capability to repel Russia. However it turns out, will be a ripple effect across the globe.
That's true.
It's also true that the main argument in favor of giving government the ability to print money is it's necessary for the government to raise sufficient funds, when there is a threat of war, because if they tried to raise taxes high enough to actually pay for the the war, the populace wouldn't support it.
Makes you wonder.
There is a reason the founders wanted no standing army. They figured if the USA was invaded, the army would form quickly from citizens. If the USA wanted to step into a foreign engagement, they would have to have a GREAT case to form up the army.
Quote from: Pat on February 25, 2022, 12:17:23 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 25, 2022, 11:44:53 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 25, 2022, 11:34:50 AM
I don't think that the Ukraine will go down quietly.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/ukraine-strikes-back-against-russia-as-chaos-continues-to-unfold/news-story/9e1eb73d6e9c8b4968e0a1808a3d57df
I have some Russian artists in my news feed and a lot of them are posting that this act is the will of Putin, but not that of the Russian people.
Not too many wars are the will of the people. I would hazard to say almost NO war is the will of the people. It takes massive propaganda and often lies to get a population behind sending their young, strong, brave men to die on other people's dirt. I have no idea as to the Ukrainian capability to repel Russia. However it turns out, will be a ripple effect across the globe.
That's true.
It's also true that the main argument in favor of giving government the ability to print money is it's necessary for the government to raise sufficient funds, when there is a threat of war, because if they tried to raise taxes high enough to actually pay for the the war, the populace wouldn't support it.
Makes you wonder.
Printing money is way worse than taxes, since it devalues the currency.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2022, 01:11:59 PM
...
Printing money is way worse than taxes, since it devalues the currency.
Funny how all Western governments do both...
The West (Mostly USA) played geopolitical games with the lives of millions of innocent Ukrainians, and we are seeing the result when their bluff gets called.
Putin is not a good guy, but pushing Ukraine to join Nato was mind bending idiocy from the start.
It's like if the USSR installed a puppet government in Mexico, and was in talks with them to join the Eastern Block during the Cold war - We would freak out, and wouldn't have it.
Kinda like the whole Cuban missile Crisis thing...
Honestly, what did they think Putin was going to do? He was not going to have Nato troops and weaponry on his border.
Putin is all in.
He has to come out on top. Overthrow our western puppet government in the Ukraine, and install his puppet government. With a newly formed 100% Russian friendly republic on his border. He will not annex anything, because he wants the buffer states between him and Nato.
The only thing that makes sense was that they actually thought Putin was bluffing, and when he backed down the not-president would then get great photo-ops for "standing up to Putin'.
I will be surprised if this isn't all wrapped up by this time next week...
Quote from: Jaeger on February 25, 2022, 02:17:26 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2022, 01:11:59 PM
...
Printing money is way worse than taxes, since it devalues the currency.
Funny how all Western governments do both...
The West (Mostly USA) played geopolitical games with the lives of millions of innocent Ukrainians, and we are seeing the result when their bluff gets called.
Putin is not a good guy, but pushing Ukraine to join Nato was mind bending idiocy from the start.
It's like if the USSR installed a puppet government in Mexico, and was in talks with them to join the Eastern Block during the Cold war - We would freak out, and wouldn't have it.
Kinda like the whole Cuban missile Crisis thing...
Honestly, what did they think Putin was going to do? He was not going to have Nato troops and weaponry on his border.
Putin is all in.
He has to come out on top. Overthrow our western puppet government in the Ukraine, and install his puppet government. With a newly formed 100% Russian friendly republic on his border. He will not annex anything, because he wants the buffer states between him and Nato.
The only thing that makes sense was that they actually thought Putin was bluffing, and when he backed down the not-president would then get great photo-ops for "standing up to Putin'.
I will be surprised if this isn't all wrapped up by this time next week...
Don't forget their sham "sanctions", Russia can still sell energy and get paid in dollars, Russia's main export is? You guessed it Energy, and the EUSSR is totally dependent on them thanks to the ecoterrorits.
Allegedly Xu Jin Pooh called Putin and told him to stop the war and get negotiating and Putin agreed. IF that's true I bet you're correct.
My conspiracy theory is this was also a dry run for Xi to annex Taiwan, to see what the west would do.
I agree that there will be a ripple effect across the globe. If this comes across as a success for Putin, then it will embolden not only him, but many other would-be conquerors in other countries. If this comes across as a failure, then it will serve as a deterrent against such invasions.
And this isn't simply a yes-no binary. The worse it is for Putin, the less encouraging it will be. Thus, not just for the freedom of the Ukrainian people, but also for the world in general, I would want it to go poorly - that goes on the international economic front, internally within Russia, the military progress within Ukraine, as well as non-military resistance within Ukraine.
Quote from: Jaeger on February 25, 2022, 02:17:26 PM
Putin is not a good guy, but pushing Ukraine to join Nato was mind bending idiocy from the start.
It's like if the USSR installed a puppet government in Mexico, and was in talks with them to join the Eastern Block during the Cold war - We would freak out, and wouldn't have it.
Kinda like the whole Cuban missile Crisis thing...
But Cuba *did* join the Eastern Bloc during the Cold War, and we did not respond by full-bore invading them. Where we drew the line was that we didn't allow Russia to install nuclear missiles in Cuba.
We haven't come anywhere close to installing nuclear missiles in Ukraine. They haven't even allied with the West, or had any Western military of any kind support them. They were simply in talks about it. That is not a justification for invasion.
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 02:50:52 PM
That is not a justification for invasion.
Dude, Ukraine had WMDs - Putin had no choice.
The more evidence I see of Zelenskyy's HUGE, clanking brass balls, the funnier it is that Trump thought he could bully the man.
Good luck to the brave people of Ukraine, I hope Putin's own people give him the Mussolini treatment.
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 02:50:52 PM
...
We haven't come anywhere close to installing nuclear missiles in Ukraine. They haven't even allied with the West, or had any Western military of any kind support them. They were simply in talks about it. That is not a justification for invasion.
"Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq!"The US has invaded for far less...
Again, Putin is not a good dude. But he his
not having a Nato country on his border.
Anonymous just doxxed the Russian Ministry of Defense. And they've crashed the Kremlin's website along with RT.
Quote from: Jaeger on February 25, 2022, 03:17:31 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 02:50:52 PM
...
We haven't come anywhere close to installing nuclear missiles in Ukraine. They haven't even allied with the West, or had any Western military of any kind support them. They were simply in talks about it. That is not a justification for invasion.
"Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq!"
The US has invaded for far less...
Again, Putin is not a good dude. But he his not having a Nato country on his border.
This will actually grow NATO membership.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:16:11 PMGood luck to the brave people of Ukraine, I hope Putin's own people give him the Mussolini treatment.
....Be taken over be a foreign government and then executed out of frustration for the foreigners abuse?
Zelensky is a puppet president being moved around by the oligarchs and western powers you twit.
Just shut up.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:18:59 PM
Anonymous just doxxed the Russian Ministry of Defense. And they've crashed the Kremlin's website along with RT.
Im sure Putin in quivering in his boots already. I hope they send him a million pizzas next.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:21:03 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:16:11 PMGood luck to the brave people of Ukraine, I hope Putin's own people give him the Mussolini treatment.
....Be taken over be a foreign government and then executed out of frustration for the foreigners abuse?
Zelensky is a puppet president being moved around by the oligarchs and western powers you twit.
Just shut up.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:18:59 PM
Anonymous just doxxed the Russian Ministry of Defense. And they've crashed the Kremlin's website along with RT.
Im sure Putin in quivering in his boots already. I hope they send him a million pizzas next.
Seems someone likes the taste of Russian boot leather. How does it feel knowing an old woman with a handful of sunflower seeds is more of a man than you?
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:24:06 PMSeems someone likes the taste of Russian boot leather. How does it feel knowing an old woman with a handful of sunflower seeds is more of a man than you?
Most of my extended family LIVES THERE you retard. My mother is currently stuck there!
MOST OF THE MILITARY DESERTED!
You don't understand the political situation there at all. This 'Hoo Ra' bullshit will get a whole bunch of people killed for very little gain to anybody.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:27:04 PM
Most of my extended family LIVES THERE you retard. My mother is currently stuck there!
MOST OF THE MILITARY DESERTED!
You don't understand the political situation there at all. This 'Hoo Ra' bullshit will get a whole bunch of people killed for very little gain to anybody.
Exactly.
The West postured, and now millions of innocent Ukrainians are left holding the bag while we watch from the sidelines...
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:27:04 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:24:06 PMSeems someone likes the taste of Russian boot leather. How does it feel knowing an old woman with a handful of sunflower seeds is more of a man than you?
MOST OF THE MILITARY DESERTED!
This is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:34:19 PMThis is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
I have secondhand reports from people that live there, but your delusional so it doesn't matter.
I think your an utterly contemptible human being. Pack your bags and ship out to Ukraine right now. Fucking do it if its a cause worth fighting for.
It boils my blood that people are dying to be a spectactle for people like you.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:39:26 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:34:19 PMThis is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
I have secondhand reports from people that live there, but your delusional so it doesn't matter.
I think your an utterly contemptible human being. Pack your bags and ship out to Ukraine right now. Fucking do it if its a cause worth fighting for.
It boils my blood that people are dying to be a spectactle for people like you.
"Secondhand reports", uh-huh, why am I not surprised? Funny how my thinking that Ukraine deserves freedom from foreign occupation makes me contemptible. You're the one parroting the talking points of a hostile foreign invader who is currently attacking civilains in YOUR country.
Edit: it breaks my heart to see the people of Ukraine under attack. Putin has lied about this every step of the way, fabricated attacks by Ukraine, lied about only "keeping peace" in two regions, etc. You're either a Russian plant, or a traitor to your own country.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:39:26 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:34:19 PMThis is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
I have secondhand reports from people that live there, but your delusional so it doesn't matter.
I think your an utterly contemptible human being. Pack your bags and ship out to Ukraine right now. Fucking do it if its a cause worth fighting for.
It boils my blood that people are dying to be a spectactle for people like you.
Tubesock just plays a tough guy on the internet.
But dont worry Shrieking Banshee, with the Russian web site down there is nothing that they can do now.
You don't have to be a tough guy to understand why Ukraine is fighting back.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:44:54 PMDogshit
Because people like you are the ones that ended up helping Afghanistan. You have kinda helped me put it into the perspective. Your the kind of person the west has flexed for.
I have nothing further left to say to you.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:49:17 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:44:54 PMDogshit
Because people like you are the ones that ended up helping Afghanistan. You have kinda helped me put it into the perspective. Your the kind of person the west has flexed for.
I have nothing further left to say to you.
Comparing a fruitless forever war that was started on false pretenses and Ukraine's response to an actual invasion is beyond stupid.
Quote from: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 03:48:03 PMBut dont worry Shrieking Banshee, with the Russian web site down there is nothing that they can do now.
That and the 'Putin Teh Gay' memes are sure to get him packing.
Just so the non-retards get a sense of perspective: Ukraine is a country filled with people like anywhere else. But like many Ex-soviet bloc country, lacked any real sense of national identity because it was a vassal state for so long (Im talking a period of hundreds of years). Without any real unity sans 'Fuck the genocidal russians' it fell to corruption and division, with many sub-groups wanting different things. Some wanted to be more European and others wanted to be more Russian.
As a result the levers of internal power mostly belong to corrupt oligarchs and the general citizenry apathetic about the place they live in. This makes it a very attractive target for a man like Putin (who Il state for the peanut gallery, is insane and stupid for doing this).
As it stands right now, Ukraine cannot win.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:39:26 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:34:19 PMThis is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
I have secondhand reports from people that live there, but your delusional so it doesn't matter.
I think your an utterly contemptible human being. Pack your bags and ship out to Ukraine right now. Fucking do it if its a cause worth fighting for.
It boils my blood that people are dying to be a spectactle for people like you.
Tubesock is a filthy commie scum, this is just another thing he knows/understands jack shit but likes to talk about. And since the Orange Man Bad (who is both Orange and Bad) was kinda sorta against the Ukranian regime then he must be in favor of because the Orange Man is Bad.
Funny things is I bet Trump being kinda crazy was keeping Putin, Pooh and the idiot from North Korea at bay.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2022, 04:11:38 PMFunny things is I bet Trump being kinda crazy was keeping Putin, Pooh and the idiot from North Korea at bay.
I don't know if he really was or not. Im not in the mood for 'Repubs/Demos'. I don't see this as a 'Own' on Biden. Currently stuff just sucks.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:44:54 PM
Edit: it breaks my heart to see the people of Ukraine under attack.
No, it doesn't.
You are just another troll on the Internet who laughs at the tragic events. You are beneath contempt. Your own avatar quote is, "I'M JUST HERE TO LAUGH AT YOU."
Fuck off already.
None of the players involved are white hats. Remember that.
Ukraine would routinely fuck with the pipelines feeding Russian oil to Europe. Russia, of course, has been playing silly buggers for a while with Ukraine territory. Europe is made up of feckless retards, and the U.S. leadership couldn't plan a kindergarten birthday party.
But it's all Trump's fault. Even though Putin made no moves during Trump's tenure. Despite Trump being a 'puppet'.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 04:15:06 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2022, 04:11:38 PMFunny things is I bet Trump being kinda crazy was keeping Putin, Pooh and the idiot from North Korea at bay.
I don't know if he really was or not. Im not in the mood for 'Repubs/Demos'. I don't see this as a 'Own' on Biden. Currently stuff just sucks.
Again, sorry for what your family's going through, Shrieking Banshee. Yesterday I went to a demonstration in front of SF City Hall organized by the Nova Ukraine organization, and heard a lot of Ukrainian-American speakers. I was serious before about what Ukrainian charity to give to - I'd be interested in your input. I'm still leaning right now towards United Help Ukraine.
https://unitedhelpukraine.org/
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 25, 2022, 05:02:03 PM
None of the players involved are white hats. Remember that.
Ukraine would routinely fuck with the pipelines feeding Russian oil to Europe.
WTF? The people who are the bad guys here are the ones pushing in invading armies to conquer Ukraine - i.e. the Russians. Nothing that Ukraine did to Russia justifies or excuses this. I can't comprehend anyone who thinks that "it's complicated" as opposed to the Russians being the bad guys. I have friends in Russia, and they think exactly the same. This was someone I met at the demonstration yesterday:
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274753436_10159173067513271_145243393026291202_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=SVK1mj-PgeIAX8mBa4H&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_gXz8awmoahTMF1DLbSB5uH_cB-SnF9d8smzLp0Hfpgw&oe=621D5D50)
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 05:15:39 PM I can't comprehend anyone who thinks that "it's complicated" as opposed to the Russians being the bad guys.
As he said white hats. As in cowboy. This isn't black hat white hat. This is the good, the bad, and the ugly. As in all the actors here are degrees of grey. Russia is the blackest, but Ukraine was a ugly country way before they started meddling. And 'The good' have their own interests invested in it, and don't mind if it ends up a punching bag if they got to play keep-away with Putin.
In terms of charity Id say find things focused on helping refugees. Those are the people I think will really need the help and have reduced chances of being corrupt.
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 05:15:39 PM
I can't comprehend anyone who thinks that "it's complicated" as opposed to the Russians being the bad guys.
Fact check, true.
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 05:15:39 PM
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274753436_10159173067513271_145243393026291202_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=SVK1mj-PgeIAX8mBa4H&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_gXz8awmoahTMF1DLbSB5uH_cB-SnF9d8smzLp0Hfpgw&oe=621D5D50)
Wait, is he apologizing as a Russian for Russia's actions, or is he apologizing for
being Russian? If the former, that's silly, but I can appreciate the sentiment. If the latter, ugh.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:55:52 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 03:48:03 PMBut dont worry Shrieking Banshee, with the Russian web site down there is nothing that they can do now.
[snipped for brevity] This makes it a very attractive target for a man like Putin (who Il state for the peanut gallery, is insane and stupid for doing this).
I agree almost entirely with your post (and hope your Mom and extended family are okay). The only thing I'll disagree on is the Putin is stupid part.
With the whole EU and even America dependent on Russian oil because our insane ecofreaks have insisted we cut off our own energy production there was no way either could impose any meaningful sanctions on Russia without collapsing their economies.
In other words, he went in knowing their couldn't be any meaningful repercussions from those most likely to object (vs. during the Trump administration where the US energy policy would have allowed more serious sanctions).
He also went in knowing he had sufficient control to quash any opponents to his goals at home and doesn't give two wet farts what foreign countries who've been demonizing him for decades think of him... so what if they say he's "triple-plus bad" instead of just "double-plus bad" now?
Hell, our country is so feckless it sent out a spokesman to claim that this is actually a loss for Putin because the narrative makes us the good guys and him the bad guy... that the "narrative" is what's important as Putin occupies real territory with a real army and laughs at our generals who pat themselves on the back for their latest diversity and inclusion measures.
There's a lot of stupid people in the above scenario. Putin isn't one of them.
Ruthless? Yeah. Insane? Probably (though those saying he wants to rebuild the USSR are wrong; from what I've read it's actually the old Russian Empire he's out to rebuild which is a whole different brand of crazy). Stupid? No.
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 25, 2022, 05:44:30 PMRuthless? Yeah. Insane? Probably (though those saying he wants to rebuild the USSR are wrong; from what I've read it's actually the old Russian Empire he's out to rebuild which is a whole different brand of crazy). Stupid? No.
Here is the deal: My father is on the front end of buisness consulting in Russia (not tanksor bombs or whatever- air travel and medicide). These sanctions won't bother puttin, but will send back almost every industry he has (outside of basic resources) decades. Unless his energy control means sanctions get lifted, this is like a Mob Boss amputating his own arm to gain a irradiated crack den.
But from what I hear the Ukrainian president is hoping to get into diplomacy with Putin someplace sometime. I have no idea what happens next.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 05:22:33 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 05:15:39 PM I can't comprehend anyone who thinks that "it's complicated" as opposed to the Russians being the bad guys.
As he said white hats. As in cowboy. This isn't black hat white hat. This is the good, the bad, and the ugly. As in all the actors here are degrees of grey. Russia is the blackest, but Ukraine was a ugly country way before they started meddling. And 'The good' have their own interests invested in it, and don't mind if it ends up a punching bag if they got to play keep-away with Putin.
In terms of charity Id say find things focused on helping refugees. Those are the people I think will really need the help and have reduced chances of being corrupt.
I don't disagree that there was ugly stuff in Ukraine prior to invasion. Still, in terms of the conflict itself, I think there is a clear right side and wrong side. Ukrainians defending their country from invasion are right. Russian troops invading are wrong. That doesn't mean that the Ukrainians are angels - just that they aren't wrong in the specific action of fighting back against being invaded.
United Help Ukraine is an established group that is currently rated well (85 / 100) in Charity Navigator, and is the highest rated among Ukraine-specific charities, and rates them on transparency of spending. I think it's important to give to someone with an established track record. Even if some other group professes to give only to refugees, I'd be suspicious of what they're actually doing. Here is the supposed focus of United Help Ukraine, from https://unitedhelpukraine.org/our-focus
QuoteMedical Supplies
United Help Ukraine raises money to provide medical supplies for those injured in the war in Ukraine. These medical supplies save the lives of soldiers and civilians.
Humanitarian Aid
United Help Ukraine has ongoing clothes drives for the families that lost their loved ones because of the war. We shipped hundreds of boxes of summer and winter clothes for adults and kids of all ages.
Wounded Warrior
United Help Ukraine organizes dedicated fundraisers and helps wounded Ukrainian warriors, as well as the families of wounded and killed in the war.
Raising Awareness
United Help Ukraine has held multiple rallies in Washington, DC in support of Ukraine’s freedom and independence. We also organized multiple protests in response to Russia’s unlawful action in and against Ukraine.
That sounds fine to me, but if something sticks out to you with your Ukrainian background, let me know.
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 05:53:44 PMStill, in terms of the conflict itself, I think there is a clear right side and wrong side. Ukrainians defending their country from invasion are right. Russian troops invading are wrong. That doesn't mean that the Ukrainians are angels - just that they aren't wrong in the specific action of fighting back against being invaded.
Agreed. Putin is absolutely in the wrong in invading Ukraine.
QuoteThat sounds fine to me, but if something sticks out to you with your Ukrainian background, let me know.
Raising awareness is generally a money pit, but the rest are fine. But Im not a licenses charity checker.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 05:58:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 05:53:44 PMThat sounds fine to me, but if something sticks out to you with your Ukrainian background, let me know.
Raising awareness is generally a money pit, but the rest are fine. But Im not a licenses charity checker.
Yes, I understand. Here is their assessment in Charity Navigator:
https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/471837509
It's not perfect, but they seem transparent in where the money goes - and it's clearer than any other Ukraine-specific charity. So it's my pick based on my current information. Here's the donation link:
https://www.paypal.com/donate/?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=FAXD9R7CFB4SJ
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2022, 04:11:38 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 03:39:26 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:34:19 PMThis is a fake claim by Russian state media hth
I have secondhand reports from people that live there, but your delusional so it doesn't matter.
I think your an utterly contemptible human being. Pack your bags and ship out to Ukraine right now. Fucking do it if its a cause worth fighting for.
It boils my blood that people are dying to be a spectactle for people like you.
Tubesock is a filthy commie scum, this is just another thing he knows/understands jack shit but likes to talk about. And since the Orange Man Bad (who is both Orange and Bad) was kinda sorta against the Ukranian regime then he must be in favor of because the Orange Man is Bad.
Funny things is I bet Trump being kinda crazy was keeping Putin, Pooh and the idiot from North Korea at bay.
Please find any pro-communist statements I have ever made. I'll wait. Who's the one talking out of their ass? Oh, that's right, it's you.
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 25, 2022, 04:40:31 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 25, 2022, 03:44:54 PM
Edit: it breaks my heart to see the people of Ukraine under attack.
No, it doesn't.
You are just another troll on the Internet who laughs at the tragic events. You are beneath contempt. Your own avatar quote is, "I'M JUST HERE TO LAUGH AT YOU."
Fuck off already.
Yeah, but you are not Ukraine. YOU, I'm laughing at. Ukraine I'm legitimately heartbroken for. That you can't comprehend someone being more upset about actual human misery than internet forum bullshit says more about you than it does me.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 05:58:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 05:53:44 PMStill, in terms of the conflict itself, I think there is a clear right side and wrong side. Ukrainians defending their country from invasion are right. Russian troops invading are wrong. That doesn't mean that the Ukrainians are angels - just that they aren't wrong in the specific action of fighting back against being invaded.
Agreed. Putin is absolutely in the wrong in invading Ukraine.
I am going to channel my inner SHARK:
"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."
Quote from: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 07:02:45 PM
I am going to channel my inner SHARK:
"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."
Sometimes hard times just generate loosers. Eastern Europe has been in hard times for a real long time.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 07:02:45 PM
I am going to channel my inner SHARK:
"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."
Sometimes hard times just generate loosers. Eastern Europe has been in hard times for a real long time.
That whole region in Central and Eastern Europe has been a stomping ground for millennia. Being the funnel into Europe and caught between great powers is why nations like Poland and the Ukraine have had it so rough.
Quote from: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 07:02:45 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 05:58:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2022, 05:53:44 PMStill, in terms of the conflict itself, I think there is a clear right side and wrong side. Ukrainians defending their country from invasion are right. Russian troops invading are wrong. That doesn't mean that the Ukrainians are angels - just that they aren't wrong in the specific action of fighting back against being invaded.
Agreed. Putin is absolutely in the wrong in invading Ukraine.
I am going to channel my inner SHARK:
"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."
Greetings!
*Laughing* I was just thinking about that quotation, too! It's one of my favourites!
Very true, my friend. Very true.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Pat on February 25, 2022, 09:04:39 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 07:02:45 PM
I am going to channel my inner SHARK:
"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."
Sometimes hard times just generate loosers. Eastern Europe has been in hard times for a real long time.
That whole region in Central and Eastern Europe has been a stomping ground for millennia. Being the funnel into Europe and caught between great powers is why nations like Poland and the Ukraine have had it so rough.
Greetings!
Well said, Pat. "Funnel" indeed. It has always been a very rough place to be living. Armies marching in from the west; Armies matching in from the east; and then, of course, on occasion, armies matching in from the north or south.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 25, 2022, 05:02:03 PM
...
But it's all Trump's fault. Even though Putin made no moves during Trump's tenure. Despite Trump being a 'puppet'.
The left knows what is truly important.
First: Blame Trump.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 25, 2022, 05:50:46 PM
... Unless his energy control means sanctions get lifted, ...
This.
The US is importing around 800,000 barrels per day from Russia. Germany gets around 50% of all its oil and gas from Russia. The rest of the EU is on the hook for a good chunk as well.
If Putin can tidy up Ukraine quickly, and get his new puppet to the negotiating table, the sanctions
absolutely will come down in time.
All he needs is to get his new puppet regime to hold "fair elections" that he will invite the U.N. in to monitor. Boom: "Democracy in action" = Sanctions Lifted.
We have a lady in our office that has been here for 5 years but most of her family is still in Ukraine.
Most Ukrainians just want to go back to work, and get on with their lives. They were under no illusions about the "democracy and freedom" of the US supported regime that Putin is trying to overthrow.
Largely, this is all just a really really painful way for them to exchange one foreign puppet regime for another.
It's all been a big colossal mess since the West thought it was a good idea to back the various color revolutions in the Ukraine in 2004 and 2014.
A tragic waste.
Putin called out other nations by name, and directly threatened them.
This isn't just about Ukraine.
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 26, 2022, 12:33:14 AM
Putin called out other nations by name, and directly threatened them.
...
Only if they intervened in the Ukraine.
And it worked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDkgpCAT1SQ
"There will be no military confrontation between NATO and Russia," – head of the German Bundestag Committee on Defense.
Russia is not Afghanistan or Iraq. They actually have a functional military, and the bomb.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 25, 2022, 05:02:03 PM
None of the players involved are white hats. Remember that.
...
Exactly.
This is how stupid the not-presidents handlers are:
A 2019 report by the RAND corporation to the U.S. Army chief of staff entitled "Extending Russia."
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html
QuoteThis report examines a range of possible means to extend Russia. As the 2018 National Defense Strategy recognized, the United States is currently locked in a great-power competition with Russia. This report seeks to define areas where the United States can compete to its own advantage. Drawing on quantitative and qualitative data from Western and Russian sources, this report examines Russia's economic, political, and military vulnerabilities and anxieties. It then analyzes potential policy options to exploit them — ideologically, economically, geopolitically, and militarily (including air and space, maritime, land, and multidomain options). After describing each measure, this report assesses the associated benefits, costs, and risks, as well as the likelihood that measure could be successfully implemented and actually extend Russia. Most of the steps covered in this report are in some sense escalatory, and most would likely prompt some Russian counter-escalation. Some of these policies, however, also might prompt adverse reactions from other U.S. adversaries — most notably, China — that could, in turn, stress the United States.
Key Findings:
Russia's weaknesses lie in the economic domains:
Russia's greatest vulnerability, in any competition with the United States, is its economy, which is comparatively small and highly dependent on energy exports.
The Russian leadership's greatest anxiety stems from the stability and durability of the regime.
The most promising measures to stress Russia are in the realms of energy production and international pressure:
Continuing to expand U.S. energy production in all forms, including renewables, and encouraging other countries to do the same would maximize pressure on Russia's export receipts and thus on its national and defense budgets. Alone among the many measures looked at in this report, this one comes with the least cost or risk.
Sanctions can also limit Russia's economic potential. To be effective, however, these need to be multilateral, involving (at a minimum) the European Union, which is Russia's largest customer and greatest source of technology and capital, larger in all these respects than the United States.
Geopolitical measures to bait Russia into overextending itself are likely impractical, or they risk second-order consequences:
Many geopolitical measures would force the United States to operate in areas that are closer to Russia and where it is thus cheaper and easier for Russia than the United States to exert influence.
Ideological measures to undermine the regime's stability carry significant risks of counter escalation:
Many military options — including force posture changes and development of new capabilities — could enhance U.S. deterrence and reassure U.S. allies, but only a few are likely to extend Russia, as Moscow is not seeking parity with the United States in most domains.
Obviously the US would never interfere in a sovereign nations internal affairs. Right?
Right?
Victoria Nuland at the State Department in 2014: (Currently serving as Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs.)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-u-s-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUSBREA1601G20140207
The mess that Nuland made:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/13/the-mess-that-nuland-made/
And Salon.com for the win:
https://www.salon.com/2021/01/19/who-is-victoria-nuland-a-really-bad-idea-as-a-key-player-in-bidens-foreign-policy-team/
Quote
"Who is Victoria Nuland? Most Americans have never heard of her, because the U.S. corporate media's foreign policy coverage is a wasteland. Most Americans have no idea that President-elect Biden's pick for deputy secretary of state for political affairs is stuck in the quicksand of 1950s U.S.-Russia Cold War politics and dreams of continued NATO expansion, an arms race on steroids and further encirclement of Russia. ..."
..."When Ukrainian President Yanukovych spurned a U.S.-backed trade agreement with the European Union in favor of a $15 billion bailout from Russia, the State Department threw a tantrum.
Hell hath no fury like a superpower scorned.
The EU trade agreement was to open Ukraine's economy to European imports, but without a reciprocal opening of EU markets to Ukraine, it was a lopsided deal Yanukovich could not accept. The deal was approved by the post-coup government, and has only added to Ukraine's economic woes.
The muscle for Nuland's $5 billion coup was Oleh Tyahnybok's neo-Nazi Svoboda Party and the shadowy new Right Sector militia. During her leaked phone call, Nuland referred to Tyahnybok as one of the "big three" opposition leaders on the outside who could help the U.S.-backed Prime Minister Yatsenyuk on the inside. This is the same Tyanhnybok who once delivered a speech applauding Ukrainians for fighting Jews and "other scum" during World War II. "
Honestly, I'm surprised Far-Left Salon hasn't gotten their marching order to deep six the article...
This was all common knowledge right up to the point the not-presidents handlers got their bluff called.
But we live in clown-world where the only truth is the latest narrative that the MSM is currently spouting.
None of the players involved are white hats. Remember that. And millions of innocent Ukrainian's are paying the price.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Ahh, Jaeger! You are reading my mind!
Indeed, from the various sources I have seen--including reports and analysis that you provided above--such provides to me much of my skepticism, suspicions, and disgust with any kind of US involvement concerning Ukraine, and dealing with Russia. I am familiar with the fucking US ambassador that was involved *deep* in coordinating, funding, and sponsoring the "Colour Revolution" in Ukraine which unlawfully deposed the pro-Russian President. And all so that NATO could stroke their cock in Russia's face--while also conveniently enriching various EU nations while also simultaneously shafting Ukraine. As you mentioned, the previous pro-Russian President of Ukraine didn't like the idea of Ukraine getting fucked by the EU, and told them to go fuck themselves, and he would be happy to deal with Russia.
*THAT* got him overthrown by the US-sponsored "Colour Revolution". Nice of the US to do the dirty work of helping EU bureaucrats get rich, huh? Nice of America to whisper and giggle behind closed doors while ensuring that Ukraine gets properly fucked and is subsequently led down the pathway of being a little EU slut. All the while sitting back and looking forward to rubbing the shit in President Vladimir Putin's face.
AND, in the bargain, setting Ukraine up as a junior member of NATO, so that NATO could establish bases and move troops into Ukraine, and threaten Russia.
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right? According to the EU and Biden, apparently that is the deal. Discussing Ukraine being restricted from joining NATO is not on the table is what Biden told Putin. Heh. Well, I guess Putin has a different answer that the EU and the US don't fucking like. It's fucking sad and tragic that Ukraine is caught up in the corrupt power and greed games of the EU and the US. Ukraine will sadly be thrown to the wood-chipper, all because America and the EU wouldn't be strong, and forthright, and deal with Ukraine and Russia both in a serious, respectful, and sincere manner.
But the US, and NATO, and the fucking EU, are all nice and sweet Democracy-loving and peaceful nations.
*Yeah, right.*
THEN, also as you noted, I have long been disturbed and concerned about actual, real, NAZI influence in Ukraine. I've seen videos and such where this isn't a few guys with political opinions just to the right of Mao, or who oppose the Alphabet Mafia, and are labeled as NAZI's by the deranged fucktard Left--there are entire *REGIMENTS* of heavily-armed NAZI's in the Ukrainian military, featuring swastika armbands, Nazi tattoos, waving Nazi banners and the whole bit. RIGHT SECTOR is fucking right, my friend! I've seen videos and interviews with these guys. Geesus. And the Ukrainian government embraces them and supports them.
And Lefty Liberal fucktards always screeching about how everyone that opposes them are Nazi's, and that Putin is a monster--how convenient they are oblivious to actual Nazis in positions of influence in Ukraine.
Vladimir Putin has also discussed his absolute conviction that there will be "No Colour Rvolutions coming to Russia"--and he is of course well-aware of the US involvement in destabilizing Ukraine and installing a pro-EU and anti-Russian puppet in Ukraine. Putin is also aware of the Nazis in Ukraine--heavily armed military regiments--and has declared that Russia will *De-Nazify* Ukraine.
But Putin is a monster, and the US and the fucking EU and NATO are the fucking "Good Guys" wearing the white hats.
*R-I-G-H-T* ;D
This whole situation is a bunch of fucking bullshit because the EU and the US didn't have any fucking integrity or honour in conducting themselves and dealing with Ukraine--and Russia--in an honest and sincere manner to begin with. From the beginning several years ago, and more, the situation has been a bunch of grab-ass corruption and ego-stroking peacocking, whether in the pubic eye, or behind closed doors.
Excellent commentary, Jaeger!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I gotta say im proud of Ukraine for holding out for so long.
The military exceeded my low expectations by not turning traitor when putin gave them a chance.
I guess under shelling this activated a fight or flight instinct.
Quote from: Jaeger on February 26, 2022, 04:44:24 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 26, 2022, 12:33:14 AM
Putin called out other nations by name, and directly threatened them.
...
Only if they intervened in the Ukraine.
And it worked: link to RT
No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10553723/Putin-turns-attention-Finland-Sweden-Kremlin-official-warns-nations.html
Please use other news outlets than those supplied by the russian government. They are not to be trusted.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on February 26, 2022, 09:16:07 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on February 26, 2022, 04:44:24 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 26, 2022, 12:33:14 AM
Putin called out other nations by name, and directly threatened them.
...
Only if they intervened in the Ukraine.
And it worked: link to RT
No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10553723/Putin-turns-attention-Finland-Sweden-Kremlin-official-warns-nations.html
Please use other news outlets than those supplied by the russian government. They are not to be trusted.
How do you know who to trust?
Quote from: Wntrlnd on February 26, 2022, 09:16:07 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on February 26, 2022, 04:44:24 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 26, 2022, 12:33:14 AM
Putin called out other nations by name, and directly threatened them.
...
Only if they intervened in the Ukraine.
And it worked: link to RT
No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10553723/Putin-turns-attention-Finland-Sweden-Kremlin-official-warns-nations.html
Please use other news outlets than those supplied by the russian government. They are not to be trusted.
Which is absolutely retarded. I dunno about the Swedes, but the Finns still hate the Russians. They might join NATO just out of spite.
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2022, 07:47:40 AM
THEN, also as you noted, I have long been disturbed and concerned about actual, real, NAZI influence in Ukraine. I've seen videos and such where this isn't a few guys with political opinions just to the right of Mao, or who oppose the Alphabet Mafia, and are labeled as NAZI's by the deranged fucktard Left--there are entire *REGIMENTS* of heavily-armed NAZI's in the Ukrainian military, featuring swastika armbands, Nazi tattoos, waving Nazi banners and the whole bit. RIGHT SECTOR is fucking right, my friend! I've seen videos and interviews with these guys. Geesus. And the Ukrainian government embraces them and supports them.
And Lefty Liberal fucktards always screeching about how everyone that opposes them are Nazi's, and that Putin is a monster--how convenient they are oblivious to actual Nazis in positions of influence in Ukraine.
The president of the Ukraine denies that. And he's Jewish.
I don't know enough about the topic to have any idea which is true.
Quote from: Pat on February 26, 2022, 10:56:15 AMThe president of the Ukraine denies that. And he's Jewish.
I don't know enough about the topic to have any idea which is true.
It is not. And Im Jewish as well.
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2022, 07:47:40 AM
THEN, also as you noted, I have long been disturbed and concerned about actual, real, NAZI influence in Ukraine. I've seen videos and such where this isn't a few guys with political opinions just to the right of Mao, or who oppose the Alphabet Mafia, and are labeled as NAZI's by the deranged fucktard Left--there are entire *REGIMENTS* of heavily-armed NAZI's in the Ukrainian military, featuring swastika armbands, Nazi tattoos, waving Nazi banners and the whole bit. RIGHT SECTOR is fucking right, my friend! I've seen videos and interviews with these guys. Geesus. And the Ukrainian government embraces them and supports them.
And Lefty Liberal fucktards always screeching about how everyone that opposes them are Nazi's, and that Putin is a monster--how convenient they are oblivious to actual Nazis in positions of influence in Ukraine.
Shark, you'll notice I've been pretty quiet on Ukraine here. But this part, I gotta jump in. This part is Russian propaganda. You're repeating stuff directly planted by RT. That Nazi influence stuff is bullshit from FSB. They're taking two strategies on this one: 1) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as drug addicts, and 2) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as Nazis.
It's not that there isn't a neo-nazi nationalist segment of Ukraine. There is. There's one in most nations. But they're tiny, and have no power in Ukraine. In the 2019 election, the Ukrainian far right nationalists (which are not all neo-nazis themselves, but that's the group they allied with) were humiliated, receiving only 2% of the vote. That's less than they got in most EU nations, like France and Germany.
And as Pat mentioned, the President is Jewish, and he comes from a family like mine where most of his family was wiped out by the holocaust.
The actual Nazis do not have meaningful influence in Ukraine. But, Putin wants you to think they do. And he wants you to think drug addicts run Ukraine. Those are the two strategies their propaganda is taking, and people shouldn't fall for Russian propaganda. There is plenty of real stuff to talk about.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 26, 2022, 11:14:27 AMShark, you'll notice I've been pretty quiet on Ukraine here. But this part, I gotta jump in. This part is Russian propaganda.
Ukraine isn't run by a cabal of secret nazis so that makes shelling civilians 'OK' with rockets aimed at civilian sections.
But after the Crimea anexation there was a sizable movement of neo-nazis that became popular in the country out of spite for russia (because the germans ruled Ukraine for a bit, and so at that moment anything anti-russia was in). I mean they had parades down main street. And its been a while since the last confirmed one, but TONS of Drug addicts have run Ukraine at one point or another. When I lived there we made plenty of jokes about the mayor being a major coke fiend. We where without a mayor for a while and it didn't make any difference. I don't know what the status was in terms of influence the last 2 years or so.
But as I said, killing the civilians and bombing cities isn't really gonna fix the underlying social issues so moreso then being mugged by a schitzophreniac is likely to fix a phobia of spiders. If neo nazi coke-fiends where shouting 'Go Putin', they would be the first to be put in power by him.
Hard to know what's propaganda and what's real, but if this is genuine, it goes a long way toward explaining why Russia isn't doing as well as projected.
Lots of videos today, purporting to show captured Russian soldiers. Most of these are claiming that they didn't know they were fighting, or were told they would be "training". Others claiming they were told that Ukraine would offer little resistance. Some seem scared, confused. Multiple reports of Russians getting lost, or attempting to hide themselves in Ukraine.
I don't yet know what to believe wrt these videos. Ukraine has set up a hotline for Russian parents to check on their kids.
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2022, 07:47:40 AM
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right?
Regardless of internal politics, Ukraine is not a legitimate security concern for Russia that justifies invasion. Ukraine is not building up its military and/or threatening to attack Russia. Russia is attacking purely to conquer, not out of self-defense.
The people of Ukraine have done nothing to justify this assault.
Invading another country just because they don't like you isn't a "legitimate security concern" - it is unprovoked aggression.
You know what I do not hear about? The White house and congress clamoring to allow in hundreds of thousands of refugees from Ukraine. That seems odd, normally with such a clearly painted bad guy like Putin, they would be all over themselves to bring in refugees.
Maybe because neighboring countries seem willing to do it? Hard to say.
Strange though, since neighbors were willing in many other crisis in the past. Maybe too close to midterms to push taking in refugees?
Quote from: jhkim on February 26, 2022, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2022, 07:47:40 AM
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right?
Regardless of internal politics, Ukraine is not a legitimate security concern for Russia that justifies invasion. Ukraine is not building up its military and/or threatening to attack Russia. Russia is attacking purely to conquer, not out of self-defense.
The people of Ukraine have done nothing to justify this assault.
Invading another country just because they don't like you isn't a "legitimate security concern" - it is unprovoked aggression.
Well....since you are saying this from the USA, the rest of the world takes it with a grain of salt. Given the USA's past, especially the past 50ish years, this is a case of a giant pot calling a kettle black.
Imagine simping for authoritarianism so hard that you can't help but "AKCHYUALLY..." at a free country fighting back against invasion by a criminal dictator lmao
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?
For shame!
Quote from: Shasarak on February 26, 2022, 05:15:03 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?
He can fuck right off, the Ukrainians got gypped.
I'm more worried about how this will affect the prices of crappy steel-jacketed 'liberal-plinking' ammo.
Quote from: Shasarak on February 26, 2022, 05:15:03 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?
For shame!
Big guy's gotta get his ten percent, y'know.
Quote from: Shasarak on February 26, 2022, 05:15:03 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?
For shame!
Don't worry, I'm sure his daddy is setting him up with a defense contractor right now.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 04:36:47 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 26, 2022, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2022, 07:47:40 AM
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right?
Regardless of internal politics, Ukraine is not a legitimate security concern for Russia that justifies invasion. Ukraine is not building up its military and/or threatening to attack Russia. Russia is attacking purely to conquer, not out of self-defense.
Well....since you are saying this from the USA, the rest of the world takes it with a grain of salt. Given the USA's past, especially the past 50ish years, this is a case of a giant pot calling a kettle black.
OK, but in this analogy, the pot and the kettle are in fact both black - i.e. both the USA and Russia have engaged in unjustified wars.
Still, that means that Putin's invasion is wrong - which I would think is your position based on your earlier stance. There are not legitimate security concerns that mean the Ukrainians deserve to be invaded. That's the fundamental question here.
Quote from: jhkim on February 26, 2022, 05:59:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 04:36:47 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 26, 2022, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2022, 07:47:40 AM
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right?
Regardless of internal politics, Ukraine is not a legitimate security concern for Russia that justifies invasion. Ukraine is not building up its military and/or threatening to attack Russia. Russia is attacking purely to conquer, not out of self-defense.
Well....since you are saying this from the USA, the rest of the world takes it with a grain of salt. Given the USA's past, especially the past 50ish years, this is a case of a giant pot calling a kettle black.
OK, but in this analogy, the pot and the kettle are in fact both black - i.e. both the USA and Russia have engaged in unjustified wars.
Still, that means that Putin's invasion is wrong - which I would think is your position based on your earlier stance. There are not legitimate security concerns that mean the Ukrainians deserve to be invaded. That's the fundamental question here.
I notice you use "Ukrainians" (the people) when you're talking about what you consider an unjust war, thereby suggesting that the Ukrainians (the people) deserve to be invaded when you consider it a just war.
Except that's never the case. The people, as a whole, never "deserve" war. It's the leadership who push wars, not the people. And even if propaganda results in broad support among the people, it's not universal.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on February 26, 2022, 09:16:07 AM
No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.
And?
He is not having Nato on his border.
Not. Having. It.
This is not hard to understand.
Is Putin being a raging asshole about it all now?
Yes.
He is Not a good Dude...
Quote from: Wntrlnd on February 26, 2022, 09:16:07 AM
Please use other news outlets than those supplied by the russian government. They are not to be trusted.
BBC, Reuters, Consortium, and Salon: All well known for their Left-leaning biases, and front and center pushing Trump - Russian collusion stories, are now all authoritarian Russian propaganda outfits?
Well, thanks for clearing that up...
Quote from: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 04:36:47 PM
...
Well....since you are saying this from the USA, the rest of the world takes it with a grain of salt. Given the USA's past, especially the past 50ish years, this is a case of a giant pot calling a kettle black.
"WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ!"
How many innocent Iraqi civilians died for that big nothing burger?
There are no white hats here.Innocent Ukrainian civilians are the ones left holding the bag because of a geopolitical mess made by foreign nations.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 26, 2022, 05:32:20 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 26, 2022, 05:15:03 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?
For shame!
Big guy's gotta get his ten percent, y'know.
Look I have an idea and stay with me on this ok.
What if we all put a Ukranian flag in our bio and I personally commit to buying 50% less Russian vodka then I usually do until Putin guarantees that Biden gets his stack of cash. Either Biden I dont mind.
Quote from: Shasarak on February 26, 2022, 06:31:21 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 26, 2022, 05:32:20 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 26, 2022, 05:15:03 PM
5 pages and no one has addressed the concern that Hunter Biden will not get his stack of cash this year?
For shame!
Big guy's gotta get his ten percent, y'know.
Look I have an idea and stay with me on this ok.
What if we all put a Ukranian flag in our bio and I personally commit to buying 50% less Russian vodka then I usually do until Putin guarantees that Biden gets his stack of cash. Either Biden I dont mind.
I think the idea shows promise, though I'm still not sure how it's gonna get me my shipment of steel-cased ammo. On the other hand, the Ukrainian flag might antagonize Putin into escalating the level of force, so I propose sticking to flags of other formerly Communist allied shithole countries.
Quote from: jhkim on February 26, 2022, 05:59:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 04:36:47 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 26, 2022, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2022, 07:47:40 AM
And people *wonder* why Vladimir Putin is being hard-nosed, and aggressive? Gee, I wonder why!? Russia can't possibly have its own legitimate security concerns--like the US--and insist that Russia's perspective and concerns IN THEIR FRONT YARD--be respected, huh? Just like we don't mince words when it comes to our strategic and real security concerns. But Russia needs to shut up and sit down like a little bitch, is that right?
Regardless of internal politics, Ukraine is not a legitimate security concern for Russia that justifies invasion. Ukraine is not building up its military and/or threatening to attack Russia. Russia is attacking purely to conquer, not out of self-defense.
Well....since you are saying this from the USA, the rest of the world takes it with a grain of salt. Given the USA's past, especially the past 50ish years, this is a case of a giant pot calling a kettle black.
OK, but in this analogy, the pot and the kettle are in fact both black - i.e. both the USA and Russia have engaged in unjustified wars.
Still, that means that Putin's invasion is wrong - which I would think is your position based on your earlier stance. There are not legitimate security concerns that mean the Ukrainians deserve to be invaded. That's the fundamental question here.
There is no question, of course Putin is in the wrong. So what? Sanctions are did not deter him, and are unlikely to do so. That leaves what exactly? Strongly worded letters and emails?
Quote from: Jaeger on February 26, 2022, 06:14:36 PM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on February 26, 2022, 09:16:07 AM
No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.
And?
He is not having Nato on his border.
Not. Having. It.
This is not hard to understand.
Is Putin being a raging asshole about it all now?
Yes.
He is Not a good Dude...
He already has. The countries are called Estonia and Lithuania.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on February 26, 2022, 07:24:55 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on February 26, 2022, 06:14:36 PM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on February 26, 2022, 09:16:07 AM
No, he threatened Sweden And Finland as well if they dared to apply to Nato membership.
And?
He is not having Nato on his border.
Not. Having. It.
This is not hard to understand.
Is Putin being a raging asshole about it all now?
Yes.
He is Not a good Dude...
He already has. The countries are called Estonia and Lithuania.
That was all he could stands, and he cant stands no more!!!
Quote from: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 07:29:02 PM
That was all he could stands, and he cant stands no more!!!
That, and having leftists say mean things about him on cable news and the internet for 4 years, and he finally snapped :(
fuck it. it aint worth it..
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 26, 2022, 04:44:54 PM
Imagine simping for authoritarianism so hard that you can't help but "AKCHYUALLY..." at a free country fighting back against invasion by a criminal dictator lmao
Imagine being such a cunt you talk shit to a guy with family in harm's way in Ukraine talking about him being a traitor to his country because he has an opinion and point of view you do not like. All while being very heartbroken of course.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 07:29:02 PM
...
That was all he could stands, and he cant stands no more!!!
Not far off...
They (Estonia and Lithuania) are largely non-entities within Nato, with only 1.3 and 2.7 million people for their respective total populations, and even then Russia was none to pleased with their membership.
Ukraine has 44 million people however, and can field an actual army.
From the Russian perspective, Ukraine is a different matter entirely.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 26, 2022, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 26, 2022, 04:44:54 PM
Imagine simping for authoritarianism so hard that you can't help but "AKCHYUALLY..." at a free country fighting back against invasion by a criminal dictator lmao
Imagine being such a cunt you talk shit to a guy with family in harm's way in Ukraine talking about him being a traitor to his country because he has an opinion and point of view you do not like. All while being very heartbroken of course.
Just put him on your Ignore List. It helps bolster your faith in humanity by not reading his trolling.
Greetings!
I've heard several reports about the war so far--and Ukrainian troops are fighting heroically, and putting up hard resistance against Russian armies.
Oh, and the Neo-Nazi "Azov Battalion" has been caught in a cauldron by Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine. Russian FSB propaganda my ass. The reality of Nazi troops serving as part of Ukrainian military forces has been confirmed by *multiple sources*.
I'm not saying Ukraine is controlled by Nazis, or that all of Ukraine are Nazis. There are however, Nazi elements there that have been supported by the Ukrainian government. As Jaeger discussed, that has been verified by multiple witnesses, journalists, and sources--many of which are distinctly Leftist and Liberal. Certainly not "Russian Propaganda". Believe what you want though.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
So, the New York Times had a story that the Biden administration told China that the Ukraine getting into NATO was a done deal and there would be nukes on Russia's border soon... knowing that China would tell Russia this (even though it wasn't true).
Because Biden needs a war to distract from and explain away the runaway inflation and other messes he's been mired in. Have you heard one word about Covid, the bare shelves, rising prices, the southern border, the tyranny to the north or the US trucker convoy that's currently reached 15 miles in length? Of course not, because now the media can talk about Russia, Russia, Russia all day long.
Then the Biden Administration goes the extra mile and tries to tell President Zelinisky he shouldn't engage in peace talks Russia... only the US can talk to Russia. Can't have a ceasefire or peace break out too soon now... they need it for the mid-terms.
This doesn't make Putin a good guy, but it does mean our leadership is willing to throw the innocent people of Ukraine into a war just to try and hold onto political power at home and, in my opinion, makes them even worse.
In an ideal world, the Ukrainian people would stop the Russian invasion itself and then tell the US government to fuck itself by making every last dirty deal and money laundering scheme it's run through the Ukraine public.
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 27, 2022, 07:55:57 AM
So, the New York Times had a story that the Biden administration told China that the Ukraine getting into NATO was a done deal and there would be nukes on Russia's border soon... knowing that China would tell Russia this (even though it wasn't true).
Because Biden needs a war to distract from and explain away the runaway inflation and other messes he's been mired in. Have you heard one word about Covid, the bare shelves, rising prices, the southern border, the tyranny to the north or the US trucker convoy that's currently reached 15 miles in length? Of course not, because now the media can talk about Russia, Russia, Russia all day long.
Then the Biden Administration goes the extra mile and tries to tell President Zelinisky he shouldn't engage in peace talks Russia... only the US can talk to Russia. Can't have a ceasefire or peace break out too soon now... they need it for the mid-terms.
This doesn't make Putin a good guy, but it does mean our leadership is willing to throw the innocent people of Ukraine into a war just to try and hold onto political power at home and, in my opinion, makes them even worse.
In an ideal world, the Ukrainian people would stop the Russian invasion itself and then tell the US government to fuck itself by making every last dirty deal and money laundering scheme it's run through the Ukraine public.
Do you have a link to this NY Times story, I can't find it anywhere.
Zelensky's showing way more balls than I ever anticipated from an ex-comedian. People surprise you.
I understand Putin's desire to avoid Ukraine joining NATO. Lithuania and Estonia are in NATO and are on his border. Remember how we reacted with Soviet missiles in Cuba (after we put them in Turkey)?
Ukraine's government was famously corrupt and questionably democratic.
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.
That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM\However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup
Goddamn seeing retrograde governments get BTFO'd gives me a boner a cat couldn't scratch. a FREEDOM BONER.
Belarus' dictator says "his country" is jumping in. Immediate protests and challenges to his authority ensue, with at least one Belarusian military official publicly encouraging soldiers to disobey "illegal orders". Another woman has now proclaimed herself "leader of Belarus".
Russia has requested negotiations with no preconditions. Delegations to meet on border.
Russian soldiers deserting and surrendering all over the place.
Russian tank column destroyed, killing top Chechen military leader.
Russians, expecting a quick, easy victory, failed to establish decent logistics. They are getting lost, and running out of food, fuel and supplies.
Anonymous is still butt-fucking Russia's government websites, and has hijacked Russian state TV to play the Ukranian anthem and news from across the border nonstop.
This is an inspiration to everyone who values freedom.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 10:59:14 AM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.
Yup
Whatever your politics, sir, thank God for that.
My prayers for the rest of your family.
Quote from: SHARK on February 27, 2022, 02:15:10 AM
Greetings!
I've heard several reports about the war so far--and Ukrainian troops are fighting heroically, and putting up hard resistance against Russian armies.
Oh, and the Neo-Nazi "Azov Battalion" has been caught in a cauldron by Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine. Russian FSB propaganda my ass. The reality of Nazi troops serving as part of Ukrainian military forces has been confirmed by *multiple sources*.
I'm not saying Ukraine is controlled by Nazis, or that all of Ukraine are Nazis. There are however, Nazi elements there that have been supported by the Ukrainian government. As Jaeger discussed, that has been verified by multiple witnesses, journalists, and sources--many of which are distinctly Leftist and Liberal. Certainly not "Russian Propaganda". Believe what you want though.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Did you just argue Russian propaganda isn't Leftist and Liberal?
Oh it's been "verified" has it? The fuck it has. The "verification" is, again, mostly from Russian propaganda. Again, while there are neo-nazi elements in Ukraine, there are fewer of them there than most European nations. It's just Russian propaganda to make them seem like they are much bigger and more prominent in Ukraine, because Nazi is the biggest insult in Russia. And here you and Jaeger are, being convenient little fucking puppets of Putin dancing to his tune and looking for any excuse to push his propaganda.
Shark, you like to call anyone who disagrees with you marxists and communists. This is I think the first instance we're I've seen you dance for actual communists. For no reason too. You're not making a powerful point by promoting this communist propaganda. You have not personally researched this aspect of the topic heavily or have first hand experience about it. You're just parroting what you've seen without trying to verify it yourself, and I don't know why this is a hill you'd die on given it really is coming from actual communists and not people you'd ordinarily trust.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 10:59:14 AM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.
That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM\However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup
Thank God your mom got out. I have been thinking about her and your family the past several days since you mentioned she was planning to get out by train on Saturday. Looking at the images of those trains being packed and rushed I was worried. I hope the rest of your family gets out soon too, if that is their goal. I hope they're safer where they are than in the city itself.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 11:44:01 AM
Shark, you like to call anyone who disagrees with you marxists and communists. This is I think the first instance we're I've seen you dance for actual communists. For no reason too. You're not making a powerful point by promoting this communist propaganda. You have not personally researched this aspect of the topic heavily or have first hand experience about it. You're just parroting what you've seen without trying to verify it yourself, and I don't know why this is a hill you'd die on given it really is coming from actual communists and not people you'd ordinarily trust.
SHARK commonly fixates on the supposed oral sex activities of these same people...and right now, it sounds like he has something stuck in his own throat.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 27, 2022, 12:09:05 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 11:44:01 AM
Shark, you like to call anyone who disagrees with you marxists and communists. This is I think the first instance we're I've seen you dance for actual communists. For no reason too. You're not making a powerful point by promoting this communist propaganda. You have not personally researched this aspect of the topic heavily or have first hand experience about it. You're just parroting what you've seen without trying to verify it yourself, and I don't know why this is a hill you'd die on given it really is coming from actual communists and not people you'd ordinarily trust.
SHARK commonly fixates on the supposed oral sex activities of these same people...and right now, it sounds like he has something stuck in his own throat.
Dude, not helping. Shark's a true blue RPG nerd like you and me. We can disagree about important topics without that.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 10:59:14 AM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.
That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM\However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup
That's great news, I wish for only the best outcome for Ukraine and its people.
I don't understand Putins military plan. Doesn't he have more artillery options? He could just render a city into ash as a form of demoralization in the first day or such.
Why is he taking this long?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 12:40:21 PM
I don't understand Putins military plan. Doesn't he have more artillery options? He could just render a city into ash as a form of demoralization in the first day or such.
Why is he taking this long?
It looks like the Russians do not want to leave Ukraine a smoldering ruin. The cellphones are still working, electricity, gas and water are still flowing to homes and businesses. The gas pipelines are still flowing to Europe. I think the Russians are trying to avoid collateral damage by mopping up the opposition slowly, taking their time, being cautious, etc.
I listened to this guy, Gonazalo Lira, who lives in Ukraine confirm this stuff. He lives in Kharkiv, a Russian majority city, with his family, but got stuck in Kiev when the attack began. From his hotel window all he can confirm is that very little is happening in Kiev... occasional small arms fire in the distance, but nothing crazy. His family reports from Kharkiv that opposition is light, most of the city has been taken, and the Russians are just being very leisurely in mopping up the rather limited opposition.
I suspect when they come to the Azov Battalion(s) the gloves will come off.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 27, 2022, 12:52:54 PM
I suspect when they come to the Azov Battalion(s) the gloves will come off.
Sounds about right. Russia hasn't been afraid of glassing places before.
Governor of Kharkiv is reporting that Russians have been expelled from the city.
As of 1 hour ago, all major Ukrainian cities are reported to still be under Ukrainian control.
EU has banned Sputnik and RT.
YouTube has demonetized all Russian propaganda channels.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 12:56:59 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 27, 2022, 12:52:54 PM
I suspect when they come to the Azov Battalion(s) the gloves will come off.
Sounds about right. Russia hasn't been afraid of glassing places before.
Whether we or the Ukrainians appreciate it, Russians view Ukraine as part of Russia. As such I don't think they want to glass the place over. The real question is: What are their ultimate goals??? Do they want to 'liberate' the Russian ethnic majority areas, or do they want to bring 100% of Ukraine 'back' into Russian control? I have no earthly idea.
I suspect that if they limit their goals to 'liberating' Russian ethnic areas and crippling the Ukrainian military they will be successful. If they intend to return all of Ukraine to Russia... well if you hate the Russians and want to see them fail that might be exactly what you would want to see them try. But what do I know. The only news we are getting on this is propaganda from one side or the other.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 27, 2022, 01:13:46 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 12:56:59 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 27, 2022, 12:52:54 PM
I suspect when they come to the Azov Battalion(s) the gloves will come off.
Sounds about right. Russia hasn't been afraid of glassing places before.
Whether we or the Ukrainians appreciate it, Russians view Ukraine as part of Russia. As such I don't think they want to glass the place over. The real question is: What are their ultimate goals??? Do they want to 'liberate' the Russian ethnic majority areas, or do they want to bring 100% of Ukraine 'back' into Russian control? I have no earthly idea.
I suspect that if they limit their goals to 'liberating' Russian ethnic areas and crippling the Ukrainian military they will be successful. If they intend to return all of Ukraine to Russia... well if you hate the Russians and want to see them fail that might be exactly what you would want to see them try. But what do I know. The only news we are getting on this is propaganda from one side or the other.
I think their plan was to waltz in, grab the Ukrainian government, try them for some trumped up bullshit, and put in their own puppet Government with similar control like they have over Belarus. I don't think that plan can work any longer though - any puppet Government they put in place would be deposed the moment they left. Which is why I think Putin is looking to talk again. I don't think he anticipated this level of push back and now he needs to find a way out while saving face.
Take everything I say with a grain of salt, but the sanctions are really hurting the upper middle class. They don't care about Ukraine, they wanted to go on vacation to italy.
And many tech sector businesses are panicking what to do. Even the KGB head had minor murmurs about them not being ready fir a steamroller war.
But this could be wishful thinking that I got through my dad.
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 10:59:14 AM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.
That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM\However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup
That's good news! Now fingers crossed for getting the rest of your family safe.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 01:58:08 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.
Quick someone hack more Russian websites!
Canada and the EU have closed their airspace to ALL Russian aircraft. In a first, the EU is going to finance weapons and equipment delivery to Ukraine.
Quote from: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 02:01:55 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 01:58:08 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.
Quick someone hack more Russian websites!
I'll go ya one better: a Ukrainian sailor in Mallorca attempted to sink his wealthy Russian boss' yacht. His boss is an executive at Rostec, a Russiam state-owned military equipment manufacturer.
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM
Zelensky's showing way more balls than I ever anticipated from an ex-comedian. People surprise you.
I understand Putin's desire to avoid Ukraine joining NATO. Lithuania and Estonia are in NATO and are on his border. Remember how we reacted with Soviet missiles in Cuba (after we put them in Turkey)?
Ukraine's government was famously corrupt and questionably democratic.
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
If Ukraine didn't want to be invaded, it shouldn't have exposed that sexy coastline.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 10:59:14 AM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.
That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM\However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup
Fantastic. I am glad to hear this.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 02:01:55 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 01:58:08 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.
Quick someone hack more Russian websites!
I'll go ya one better: a Ukrainian sailor in Mallorca attempted to sink his wealthy Russian boss' yacht. His boss is an executive at Rostec, a Russiam state-owned military equipment manufacturer.
Thank goodness that brave Ukrainian sailor managed to attempt to sink a Russian yacht.
Surely Kiev is saved now!
Quote from: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 04:03:59 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 02:01:55 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 01:58:08 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.
Quick someone hack more Russian websites!
I'll go ya one better: a Ukrainian sailor in Mallorca attempted to sink his wealthy Russian boss' yacht. His boss is an executive at Rostec, a Russiam state-owned military equipment manufacturer.
Thank goodness that brave Ukrainian sailor managed to attempt to sink a Russian yacht.
Surely Kiev is saved now!
Hahaha! and totally not misinformation or propaganda!
Truth is the first casualty of war.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 27, 2022, 04:17:17 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 04:03:59 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 27, 2022, 02:01:55 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on February 27, 2022, 01:58:08 PM
Multiple credible reports that Kyiv is surrounded. Yikes.
Quick someone hack more Russian websites!
I'll go ya one better: a Ukrainian sailor in Mallorca attempted to sink his wealthy Russian boss' yacht. His boss is an executive at Rostec, a Russiam state-owned military equipment manufacturer.
Thank goodness that brave Ukrainian sailor managed to attempt to sink a Russian yacht.
Surely Kiev is saved now!
Hahaha! and totally not misinformation or propaganda!
Truth is the first casualty of war.
I am still gutted about the Snake Island story.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 11:44:01 AM
... And here you and Jaeger are, being convenient little fucking puppets of Putin dancing to his tune and looking for any excuse to push his propaganda.
...
You are very selective in your quotes. Typical behavior.
Push his propaganda? So calling Putin a Bad Dude is supporting his interests how?
Being a disingenuous Liar yet again.
Null 42 is correct:
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
But there are no white hats here.
Putin is a Bad Dude. But the West ain't lily white here either.
All those articles from liberal news outlets that I linked to casting American foreign policy in a bad light
were all A-OK until Putin attacked. And now,
like magic, the internet is filled with:
"All that shit that everyone reported on before - well um, uh, it's all Russian propaganda now!"As if the West doesn't know how to do propaganda either?
(https://social.infogalactic.com/images/posts/c09c06e2-d493-4559-91a1-256bb704b5af/original-c423cf264bac4ba789fc7f5cec2030cb.jpeg?v=63813185481)
Everyone is pushing their propaganda 24/7 right now. Everyone.
Were all those stories I linked to from
Years ago really all Russian propaganda? Or was it just good reporting that is inconvenient reading now that the West left Ukraine holding the bag?
You should tell the BBC to make up its mind.
On the one hand they report on the US interfering in a sovereign nations internal affairs:
Victoria Nuland at the State Department in 2014: (Currently serving as Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs.)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
And three years later they are highlighting how Russia pushes its narrative in the Ukraine:
Pro-Russia propaganda machine in Ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41915295
The BBC didn't seem to like either side...
The only real truth here is this:
The Ukrainian people have gotten screwed.It's all a big mess.
And Nobody knows the full story because everyone involved in this shit since the fall of the USSR is shady as fuck.
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM
Zelensky's showing way more balls than I ever anticipated from an ex-comedian. People surprise you.
I understand Putin's desire to avoid Ukraine joining NATO. Lithuania and Estonia are in NATO and are on his border. Remember how we reacted with Soviet missiles in Cuba (after we put them in Turkey)?
Ukraine's government was famously corrupt and questionably democratic.
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Greetings!
Indeed, Null, Zelensky is an inspiring badass! I saw an interview with him where he said, no, he isn't leaving Ukraine, he isn't going anywhere. He said he is here, in the streets, with his people and his soldiers, ready to fight the invaders to the last.
Fucking awesome!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 27, 2022, 10:59:14 AM
Yay, my moms out of the Ukraine and in Poland. She said a bunch of people from Africa decided to also rush the border at the same time so it took longer, but shes safe.
That just leaves everybody else I know in Ukraine.
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM\However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
Yup
Greetings!
Outstanding to hear, Shrieking Banshee! I hope that the rest of your family are safe as well.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Jaeger on February 27, 2022, 04:57:20 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 11:44:01 AM
... And here you and Jaeger are, being convenient little fucking puppets of Putin dancing to his tune and looking for any excuse to push his propaganda.
...
You are very selective in your quotes. Typical behavior.
Push his propaganda? So calling Putin a Bad Dude is supporting his interests how?
Being a disingenuous Liar yet again.
Null 42 is correct:
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
But there are no white hats here.
Putin is a Bad Dude. But the West ain't lily white here either.
All those articles from liberal news outlets that I linked to casting American foreign policy in a bad light were all A-OK until Putin attacked.
And now, like magic, the internet is filled with: "All that shit that everyone reported on before - well um, uh, it's all Russian propaganda now!"
As if the West doesn't know how to do propaganda either?
(https://social.infogalactic.com/images/posts/c09c06e2-d493-4559-91a1-256bb704b5af/original-c423cf264bac4ba789fc7f5cec2030cb.jpeg?v=63813185481)
Everyone is pushing their propaganda 24/7 right now. Everyone.
Were all those stories I linked to from Years ago really all Russian propaganda? Or was it just good reporting that is inconvenient reading now that the West left Ukraine holding the bag?
You should tell the BBC to make up its mind.
On the one hand they report on the US interfering in a sovereign nations internal affairs:
Victoria Nuland at the State Department in 2014: (Currently serving as Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs.)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
And three years later they are highlighting how Russia pushes its narrative in the Ukraine:
Pro-Russia propaganda machine in Ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41915295
The BBC didn't seem to like either side...
The only real truth here is this:
The Ukrainian people have gotten screwed.
It's all a big mess.
And Nobody knows the full story because everyone involved in this shit since the fall of the USSR is shady as fuck.
Greetings!
Exactly right, Jaeger! I have seen these videos and news reports and documentaries--with interviews by Western journalists!--going back several years--say, 2014, 2015, and since. Our ellow member here, S'mon, has also heard about the Nazi Azov Battalions. Shrieking Banshee, also. I saw Grim Jim's video on Ukraine--and Grim Jim talked also about Nazi troops in Ukraine. Grim Jim said that Nazis don't have as much control as some fear--but he said Putin's statements in regard to Nazis in Ukraine was exaggerated, but honestly having some legitimate merit.
The whole lead up to this war with our involvement in Ukraine, the colour revolution, the working to get Ukraine into NATO, pushing advisors and other troops into Ukraine, disrespecting Russia, disregarding past security treaties and promises made to Russia about the expansion of NATO eastwards, EU and US bureaucrats working to get rich themselves and ensure that Ukraine got fucked--yeah, there are no white hats here in regards to the governments involved. It has been disgusting, absolutely corrupt, and shameful. Like the Liberals have whined about constantly in regards to foreign affairs, "It's nuanced! It's a complicated situation!"
I have heard that Ukrainians are fighting hard and resisting the Russian invasion. A Ukrainian woman and her finace were to get married in May--instead, they got married two days ago, because they believed that they may not have lived to be married in May. Two hours after getting married in the church, the couple were in the streets fighting the Russians. They said this way, they can fight and die together as husband and wife before God.
Inspiring!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Jaeger on February 27, 2022, 04:57:20 PM
The only real truth here is this:
The Ukrainian people have gotten screwed.
It's all a big mess.
And Nobody knows the full story because everyone involved in this shit since the fall of the USSR is shady as fuck.
This is the meat of the current event.
Not the spin or the trolling, but the meat of this.
Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the West behind
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ed/cd/de/edcdde19b69e23be05e77b6208972fce.jpg)
Quote from: Mistwell on February 26, 2022, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2022, 07:47:40 AM
THEN, also as you noted, I have long been disturbed and concerned about actual, real, NAZI influence in Ukraine. I've seen videos and such where this isn't a few guys with political opinions just to the right of Mao, or who oppose the Alphabet Mafia, and are labeled as NAZI's by the deranged fucktard Left--there are entire *REGIMENTS* of heavily-armed NAZI's in the Ukrainian military, featuring swastika armbands, Nazi tattoos, waving Nazi banners and the whole bit. RIGHT SECTOR is fucking right, my friend! I've seen videos and interviews with these guys. Geesus. And the Ukrainian government embraces them and supports them.
And Lefty Liberal fucktards always screeching about how everyone that opposes them are Nazi's, and that Putin is a monster--how convenient they are oblivious to actual Nazis in positions of influence in Ukraine.
Shark, you'll notice I've been pretty quiet on Ukraine here. But this part, I gotta jump in. This part is Russian propaganda. You're repeating stuff directly planted by RT. That Nazi influence stuff is bullshit from FSB. They're taking two strategies on this one: 1) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as drug addicts, and 2) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as Nazis.
It's not that there isn't a neo-nazi nationalist segment of Ukraine. There is. There's one in most nations. But they're tiny, and have no power in Ukraine. In the 2019 election, the Ukrainian far right nationalists (which are not all neo-nazis themselves, but that's the group they allied with) were humiliated, receiving only 2% of the vote. That's less than they got in most EU nations, like France and Germany.
And as Pat mentioned, the President is Jewish, and he comes from a family like mine where most of his family was wiped out by the holocaust.
The actual Nazis do not have meaningful influence in Ukraine. But, Putin wants you to think they do. And he wants you to think drug addicts run Ukraine. Those are the two strategies their propaganda is taking, and people shouldn't fall for Russian propaganda. There is plenty of real stuff to talk about.
These guys here
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/02/27/ukraine-national-guard-shares-video-of-fighters-greasing-bullets-in-pig-fat-for-chechen-orcs/
Flying and wearing the Wolfsangel!
There's more Notsees in Ukraine than in all of the USA.
Still if they're greasing bullets for Czechan islamofascists...
Hopefully none of either is left standing.
Quote from: Pat on February 27, 2022, 03:22:25 PM
Quote from: Null42 on February 27, 2022, 10:58:18 AM
Zelensky's showing way more balls than I ever anticipated from an ex-comedian. People surprise you.
I understand Putin's desire to avoid Ukraine joining NATO. Lithuania and Estonia are in NATO and are on his border. Remember how we reacted with Soviet missiles in Cuba (after we put them in Turkey)?
Ukraine's government was famously corrupt and questionably democratic.
However, IMHO, Putin invaded a country that didn't attack him, and that makes him the bad guy.
If Ukraine didn't want to be invaded, it shouldn't have exposed that sexy coastline.
I told it not to walk there drunk at night.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 27, 2022, 01:13:46 PMWhether we or the Ukrainians appreciate it, Russians view Ukraine as part of Russia. As such I don't think they want to glass the place over. The real question is: What are their ultimate goals??? Do they want to 'liberate' the Russian ethnic majority areas, or do they want to bring 100% of Ukraine 'back' into Russian control? I have no earthly idea.
I think views in Russia are more complicated than that. After WWII, there was a lot of migration into Ukraine, resulting in a sizable (about 1/3 max) of the population being ethnic Russian. There is a strong sense of kinship but, I believe that many Russians that do have regular business in Ukraine (business, relations, etc) are a little more sophisticated. A lot of Russians (I believe Russian polls, for what they were worth) showed that there was an 80% approval rating over the take over of Crimea, but that was almost entirely bloodless. The years since though, though despite the ease of traffic between the countries (easier than going between Canada and the USA), have been complicated by the Russian involvement in Eastern Ukraine. It solidified many in Ukraine against Russia and, I believe many Russians have been questioning just what their government is doing to their friendly neighbors. And sanctions do remind them as well. Many goods have doubled or tripled in price.
Quote from: DocJones on February 27, 2022, 08:15:16 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 26, 2022, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2022, 07:47:40 AM
THEN, also as you noted, I have long been disturbed and concerned about actual, real, NAZI influence in Ukraine. I've seen videos and such where this isn't a few guys with political opinions just to the right of Mao, or who oppose the Alphabet Mafia, and are labeled as NAZI's by the deranged fucktard Left--there are entire *REGIMENTS* of heavily-armed NAZI's in the Ukrainian military, featuring swastika armbands, Nazi tattoos, waving Nazi banners and the whole bit. RIGHT SECTOR is fucking right, my friend! I've seen videos and interviews with these guys. Geesus. And the Ukrainian government embraces them and supports them.
And Lefty Liberal fucktards always screeching about how everyone that opposes them are Nazi's, and that Putin is a monster--how convenient they are oblivious to actual Nazis in positions of influence in Ukraine.
Shark, you'll notice I've been pretty quiet on Ukraine here. But this part, I gotta jump in. This part is Russian propaganda. You're repeating stuff directly planted by RT. That Nazi influence stuff is bullshit from FSB. They're taking two strategies on this one: 1) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as drug addicts, and 2) Paint the Ukraine military and Government as Nazis.
It's not that there isn't a neo-nazi nationalist segment of Ukraine. There is. There's one in most nations. But they're tiny, and have no power in Ukraine. In the 2019 election, the Ukrainian far right nationalists (which are not all neo-nazis themselves, but that's the group they allied with) were humiliated, receiving only 2% of the vote. That's less than they got in most EU nations, like France and Germany.
And as Pat mentioned, the President is Jewish, and he comes from a family like mine where most of his family was wiped out by the holocaust.
The actual Nazis do not have meaningful influence in Ukraine. But, Putin wants you to think they do. And he wants you to think drug addicts run Ukraine. Those are the two strategies their propaganda is taking, and people shouldn't fall for Russian propaganda. There is plenty of real stuff to talk about.
These guys here
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/02/27/ukraine-national-guard-shares-video-of-fighters-greasing-bullets-in-pig-fat-for-chechen-orcs/
Flying and wearing the Wolfsangel!
There's more Notsees in Ukraine than in all of the USA.
Still if they're greasing bullets for Czechan islamofascists...
Hopefully none of either is left standing.
Yes, the Azov Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion). Worth reading about, but noteworthy as not particularly representative of Ukraine or the military.
Again, there are neo-nazi's in Ukraine. The debate here is whether they are a meaningful portion of power in Ukraine (Putin's allegation) or not (mine and many others in this thread). Spinning them as mainstream and representative of Ukraine is Putin's propaganda.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 09:18:47 PM
Yes, the Azov Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion). Worth reading about, but noteworthy as not particularly representative of Ukraine or the military.
Again, there are neo-nazi's in Ukraine. The debate here is whether they are a meaningful portion of power in Ukraine (Putin's allegation) or not (mine and many others in this thread). Spinning them as mainstream and representative of Ukraine is Putin's propaganda.
While I don't think their existence is a good enough reason to side against Ukraine, to be fair I'm pretty sure the average number of openly fascist battalions in most countries' militaries is closer to zero than one. I can understand why someone would find their existence, let alone the fact that a Ukrainian national guard just praised them, disturbing.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 27, 2022, 09:18:47 PMAgain, there are neo-nazi's in Ukraine. The debate here is whether they are a meaningful portion of power in Ukraine (Putin's allegation) or not (mine and many others in this thread). Spinning them as mainstream and representative of Ukraine is Putin's propaganda.
I think it likely very little. Svoboda did play a part in the Maidan movement. Although Azov does have the wolftrap symbol, these groups are 'neo-nazi'-like with ultra-nationalism. I don't believe they are Hitler worshipers per se. Russia also has its own (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity) and, they are even active on the "Pro-Russia" side in Donbass.
Quote from: DocJones on February 27, 2022, 07:55:48 PM
Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the West behind
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ed/cd/de/edcdde19b69e23be05e77b6208972fce.jpg)
You do have a point.....
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.
Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:02:41 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.
Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.
(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:02:41 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.
Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.
(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
The same could be said of most political leaders anyways.
But yeah, nothing like having what should be a 'gimme' turn into a huge mess for him. Kind of hard on the Ukrainians, though.
I see so much propaganda, I have no idea how to determine how this is going. I mean, zelensky is being made out to be jessica price(well till the truth came out) at this point, for doing the BARE minimum as a leader (being willing to die defending his country). I do know this, combine social media and a war, and news outlets are like dogs running in a circle reporting absolute bullshit. I expect propaganda, but it is out of control. You would think the spartans are resurrected at thermopalyae.
I think this resolves with minimal loss of life, except for the Azoz batallion, I suspect the russians will wage actual war on them, and not an action that looks less agressive than a USA swat team.
My main concern is the egos involved (NATO aka USA) and Putin can not really afford to back down. Putin has a few options to save face, but they all involve signing paper. NATO can not afford for him to get anything, or they look terrible, and Biden has those midterms coming. Less meddling is best IMO for a quick resolution one way or the other, since the people involved at least from the NATO side seem like idiots who very well could trigger WW3.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:14:07 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:02:41 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.
Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.
(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
The same could be said of most political leaders anyways.
But yeah, nothing like having what should be a 'gimme' turn into a huge mess for him. Kind of hard on the Ukrainians, though.
The Swift thing could turn out to be a mistake. Putin does have nukes.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 08:14:22 AM
My main concern is the egos involved (NATO aka USA) and Putin can not really afford to back down. Putin has a few options to save face, but they all involve signing paper. NATO can not afford for him to get anything, or they look terrible, and Biden has those midterms coming. Less meddling is best IMO for a quick resolution one way or the other, since the people involved at least from the NATO side seem like idiots who very well could trigger WW3.
They're poking a nuclear bear.
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:02:41 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.
Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.
(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
I am not so sure that is true. He seems to be invading while leaving services, buildings, people, and infrastructure intact. It took the USA 43 days to take Iraq, and the USA did NOT attempt to leave anything intact. I do not know his timeline, neither do you, and let's face it, neither do the "experts" on TV who have made huge fuck ups regarding their prognostications on Iraq and Afghanistan.
Now, if he hit you with an email about his time line I take that back. I just can not see a ruthless pragmatist expecting to have it all wrapped up in 7 days. I think it goes past a month, he will start feeling pressure. My hope is if his ego is destroyed he does not decide to take the world with him going down. The press has certainly painted a picture of a guy more than willing to destroy most humans on the planet over his ego. I hope they are liars.
I would also say, between Russia and the USA judging relative egos and destructive temper tantrums......again Russia has not shown to be as bad as the USA with how they react when their will is not done. So I have no idea where the whole will go (if contained to just Russia and Ukraine).
If anyone needs a PR win in all this, it is certainly Biden. I just feel no decisions around it will be his at all. His people around him though....in way over their heads.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 08:20:04 AM
I would also say, between Russia and the USA judging relative egos and destructive temper tantrums......again Russia has not shown to be as bad as the USA with how they react when their will is not done. So I have no idea where the whole will go (if contained to just Russia and Ukraine).
If anyone needs a PR win in all this, it is certainly Biden. I just feel no decisions around it will be his at all. His people around him though....in way over their heads.
Everything's relative. The US is used to getting their way, while Russia hasn't been holding a winning hand in decades. So the US is bad at small setbacks, while Putin can take pride in small victories. The problem is leaving him without anything he can call a victory.
This would definitely be time for a diplomatic masterstroke from a US President, but I 100% agree we won't see one.
I think Zelensky will sign a deal to not join NATO and let those regions go. I think Putin would take that deal (I am not convinced he feels he has to displace the government, I think that is a big ask and willing to take a smaller deal), though his rhetoric at the moment seems as if he is not going to make a compromise with current government. I honestly can not say. I have limited interactions with Russians (they were all soldiers, and we all were drinking) and their emotions seemed to go from super flatline stable to volcano hot in a slit second, but then back to calm. It was a little odd, and I have no idea how representative of Russians those guys were.
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:16:20 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:14:07 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:02:41 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.
Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.
(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
The same could be said of most political leaders anyways.
But yeah, nothing like having what should be a 'gimme' turn into a huge mess for him. Kind of hard on the Ukrainians, though.
The Swift thing could turn out to be a mistake. Putin does have nukes.
Throwing nukes when Russia's already been building their own payment system? And when China has clearly shown they're at least willing to play hopscotch with Putin, regardless of past animosity?
Sorry, Pat, but lolnope.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:49:20 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:16:20 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:14:07 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:02:41 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.
Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.
(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
The same could be said of most political leaders anyways.
But yeah, nothing like having what should be a 'gimme' turn into a huge mess for him. Kind of hard on the Ukrainians, though.
The Swift thing could turn out to be a mistake. Putin does have nukes.
Throwing nukes when Russia's already been building their own payment system? And when China has clearly shown they're at least willing to play hopscotch with Putin, regardless of past animosity?
Sorry, Pat, but lolnope.
A nuke would be the end result of a string of humiliations. The safe bet is that string would have to be pretty long, but that's just a guess and we won't know until it happens. We're dealing with a stupid US president who needs to play macho for the mid-terms, a Russian president-for-life who acts macho and needs a win, media that's spinning this so hard it's turned into a blur, and sanctions that amount to turning them to into a pariah state like Iran. This is playing with fire.
Odds of Putin suffering acute lead poisoning now that the Russian oligarchs are starting to go broke? 20% inflation, run on the banks, and dead Russian soldiers stacked up like cordwood... And the looks on the faces of his generalissimos when he announced strategic rocket forces on full alert...
And make no mistake, Europe united on this *despite* the waterhead in the White House.
While we're on the subject, wha' happen' to all the deadliest plagues pandemic?!? Why no troops in full-on MOPP suits waving jabs around?
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:49:20 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:16:20 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:14:07 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2022, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 08:02:41 AM
I think the U.S. should open its borders to Ukrainian refugees as willingly as it's accepted every other Afghani or south-of-the-border economic refugee over the years.
Jokes aside, I really wonder about Putin's mental stability. Threatening Finland in particular seems somewhat pointless.
Putin's losing. That must be a huge blow to his ego, and his ego is roughly 99% of who he is.
(The other 1% is shirtless pics of him riding bears.)
The same could be said of most political leaders anyways.
But yeah, nothing like having what should be a 'gimme' turn into a huge mess for him. Kind of hard on the Ukrainians, though.
The Swift thing could turn out to be a mistake. Putin does have nukes.
Throwing nukes when Russia's already been building their own payment system? And when China has clearly shown they're at least willing to play hopscotch with Putin, regardless of past animosity?
Sorry, Pat, but lolnope.
You can't really build an alternative "system" when SWIFT is more an agreement than a system. Anyone can create a wire transfer system, that parts easy. The key to SWIFT (which I use every month, sometimes multiple times a week) is it's an agreement between banks to send and accept and validate transactions. He's not going to get that agreement regardless of an alternative wire system he creates. So sure they can create a system which works between them, China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, and maybe a couple other nations. But that's not all that useful in the grand scheme of things. The economic world is just much larger than that.
Now I don't think for a moment Putin will throw nukes. But I do think an actual SWIFT shut-off (which this isn't by the way - it's only a partial shut off so far to a handful of banks which could be subverted by using other banks) would harm them a lot. Their own analysis (announced prior to all this) is it would reduce their economy by 5% almost immediately.
Switzerland, traditionally neutral, just took sides in this and is freezing Russian assets. THAT is going to hurt. A lot of Russian oligarchs used those banks assuming that could never happen. Russia might be a communist nation, but it's also a corrupt and ruthlessly capitalist at the top. The wealthy have a huge amount of influence in Russia and they are not going to be happy with this turn of events between asset freezes and SWIFT shut downs.
Quote from: 3catcircus on February 28, 2022, 12:07:36 PM
Odds of Putin suffering acute lead poisoning now that the Russian oligarchs are starting to go broke? 20% inflation, run on the banks, and dead Russian soldiers stacked up like cordwood... And the looks on the faces of his generalissimos when he announced strategic rocket forces on full alert...
And make no mistake, Europe united on this *despite* the waterhead in the White House.
Hey look I mostly agree with 3cat on something. Been a while.
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.
Go look at a map of the Soviet Union (preferably one with terrain features), and then compare it to a more current map. The current Russian border runs along the wide and indefensible European Plain from the Baltic to the Black Sea. The Soviet (and former Russian) borders ran from the Carpathian Mountains to Kaliningrad, a much more defensible position.
NATO foolishly expanded to the Russian borders while refusing to provide security guarantees to Russia. Is it so hard to imagine Russian leaders looking at the map in despair? The current Russian border is indefensible. History has proven that time and time again.
I think anything else is just nonsense, and misinformation. Ukraine is not a fascist state that is run by old school NAZIs (even though there are some old school NAZIs in positions of power). Nor is it an up and coming 'model of democratic progress!' (Like in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, etc.????). It is just a failed state being run by corrupt incompetent fools who are too busy robbing anything worth stealing to worry about ideologies.
A hostile Ukraine on Russia's border poses a serious threat to Russian security. We have refused to accept this fact to everyone's embarrassment and harm.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
I think anything else is just nonsense, and misinformation. Ukraine is not a fascist state that is run by old school NAZIs (even though there are some old school NAZIs in positions of power). Nor is it an up and coming 'model of democratic progress!' (Like in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, etc.????). It is just a failed state being run by corrupt incompetent fools who are too busy robbing anything worth stealing to worry about ideologies.
It isn't a 'model' but it has been working to rid itself of corruption. That is really hard to do considering the layers of corruption that existed before and after the fall of the Soviet Union. The quality of politicians has at least incrementally, improved since. Not every politician is on the take. A lot of Ukrainian citizens look at other Post Soviet countries in the EU and like what they see. For many younger ones, that's the vision they have because they don't remember the Soviet years.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
A hostile Ukraine on Russia's border poses a serious threat to Russian security. We have refused to accept this fact to everyone's embarrassment and harm.
They are hostile as a result of Russia's actions, and nothing else. Given the number of ethnic Russians in Ukraine and, the general acceptance of cross border transit (just like Canada and the USA, some people work on opposite sides of the border), Ukrainians are by nature not-hostile towards Russians. You only find hostility among the tiniest number of nutjobs.
Putin originally wanted to create an economic zone like the EC / EU but it would have basically replicated the centralized power of Russia with few benefits for member nations. He blew it. The other post Soviet countries want to determine their own futures and not be part of a 19th century, ethno-based empire. Self determination is all that matters and Russia has to accept that.
Quote from: Lynn on February 28, 2022, 01:04:35 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
I think anything else is just nonsense, and misinformation. Ukraine is not a fascist state that is run by old school NAZIs (even though there are some old school NAZIs in positions of power). Nor is it an up and coming 'model of democratic progress!' (Like in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, etc.????). It is just a failed state being run by corrupt incompetent fools who are too busy robbing anything worth stealing to worry about ideologies.
It isn't a 'model' but it has been working to rid itself of corruption. That is really hard to do considering the layers of corruption that existed before and after the fall of the Soviet Union. The quality of politicians has at least incrementally, improved since. Not every politician is on the take. A lot of Ukrainian citizens look at other Post Soviet countries in the EU and like what they see. For many younger ones, that's the vision they have because they don't remember the Soviet years.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
A hostile Ukraine on Russia's border poses a serious threat to Russian security. We have refused to accept this fact to everyone's embarrassment and harm.
They are hostile as a result of Russia's actions, and nothing else. Given the number of ethnic Russians in Ukraine and, the general acceptance of cross border transit (just like Canada and the USA, some people work on opposite sides of the border), Ukrainians are by nature not-hostile towards Russians. You only find hostility among the tiniest number of nutjobs.
Putin originally wanted to create an economic zone like the EC / EU but it would have basically replicated the centralized power of Russia with few benefits for member nations. He blew it. The other post Soviet countries want to determine their own futures and not be part of a 19th century, ethno-based empire. Self determination is all that matters and Russia has to accept that.
Ignoring the motivations of your enemy does not make you stronger. It certainly does not make you wiser. Nor does demonizing your enemy help in any way.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 01:09:03 PMIgnoring the motivations of your enemy does not make you stronger. It certainly does not make you wiser. Nor does demonizing your enemy help in any way.
Correct. But acknowledgement of understanding isn't agreement. Speaking truth to power isn't demonizing.
News reports non stop it is going so badly...but he has the cities he wants surrounded...casualty reports are completely unreliable...the reality is Putin has a few cards to play that Zelensky does not. He could simply start waging actual war and doing a USA style attack and level everything and cut off the water/power/internet at the drop of a dime. IF they talk, I suspect he mentions this, and Zelensky takes a deal. My worry is Putin will wage warfare USA style, and then people are going to get killed in the thousands in short order. I hope they reach some agreement, even if it is some bullshit to put this off for another decade.
Because if Putin wages USA style war, I think NATO takes direct action, and then all bets are off.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 01:17:30 PM
News reports non stop it is going so badly...but he has the cities he wants surrounded...casualty reports are completely unreliable...the reality is Putin has a few cards to play that Zelensky does not. He could simply start waging actual war and doing a USA style attack and level everything and cut off the water/power/internet at the drop of a dime. IF they talk, I suspect he mentions this, and Zelensky takes a deal. My worry is Putin will wage warfare USA style, and then people are going to get killed in the thousands in short order. I hope they reach some agreement, even if it is some bullshit to put this off for another decade.
Because if Putin wages USA style war, I think NATO takes direct action, and then all bets are off.
Be careful. Trying to rationally consider the motivations, thoughts, and potential actions of your opposition means you are Putin Puppet! :(
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 01:26:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 01:17:30 PM
News reports non stop it is going so badly...but he has the cities he wants surrounded...casualty reports are completely unreliable...the reality is Putin has a few cards to play that Zelensky does not. He could simply start waging actual war and doing a USA style attack and level everything and cut off the water/power/internet at the drop of a dime. IF they talk, I suspect he mentions this, and Zelensky takes a deal. My worry is Putin will wage warfare USA style, and then people are going to get killed in the thousands in short order. I hope they reach some agreement, even if it is some bullshit to put this off for another decade.
Because if Putin wages USA style war, I think NATO takes direct action, and then all bets are off.
Be careful. Trying to rationally consider the motivations, thoughts, and potential actions of your opposition means you are Putin Puppet! :(
Well, I got called a terror apologist for doubting the desert wars years ago. The USA does SO MUCH dirty shit, it is hard for me to listen to its pundits/media/so called experts because they are all motivated by factors that are not the truth. I am a no war period person, so to me Putin is in the wrong, but I am also a believer Their business is not Our business. The Founders had a great point with avoiding ALL foreign entanglements.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.
Go look at a map of the Soviet Union (preferably one with terrain features), and then compare it to a more current map. The current Russian border runs along the wide and indefensible European Plain from the Baltic to the Black Sea. The Soviet (and former Russian) borders ran from the Carpathian Mountains to Kaliningrad, a much more defensible position.
Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.
Even if Russia didn't have nukes -- having a non-mountainous border doesn't give a nation the right to invade and conquer its neighbor. There are tons of countries in the world with borders that are no more defensible than Russia's.
This is not about defense of Russia. Russia is not being threatened by Ukraine. It is purely the opposite. Russia wants to use its military to threaten and dominate its neighboring countries.
Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.
Go look at a map of the Soviet Union (preferably one with terrain features), and then compare it to a more current map. The current Russian border runs along the wide and indefensible European Plain from the Baltic to the Black Sea. The Soviet (and former Russian) borders ran from the Carpathian Mountains to Kaliningrad, a much more defensible position.
Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.
Even if Russia didn't have nukes -- having a non-mountainous border doesn't give a nation the right to invade and conquer its neighbor. There are tons of countries in the world with borders that are no more defensible than Russia's.
This is not about defense of Russia. Russia is not being threatened by Ukraine. It is purely the opposite. Russia wants to use its military to threaten and dominate its neighboring countries.
Russia has the gross national product of Spain. Over the last 500 years it has been attacked by Westerners almost a dozen times. Perhaps their current fears are unfounded, but they are not afraid of legions of Ukrainians pouring over their indefensible borders. They are afraid of a unified Europe pouring over their indefensible borders. Ignoring history, and ignoring our enemies motivations, concerns, even irrational fears... is foolish IMHO. But take care and enjoy the day!
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge.
We really don't. They've always had security concerns. They have security concerns with dozens of nations. They have actual NATO countries already on their border. Ukraine had not been accepted or even applied to NATO there were just discussions and NOTHING was imminent such that they needed to invade now or something would have irreparably happened to their security issues.
We don't need to acknowledge shit. Putin decided to invade because he thought he could get away with it. He even timed it right after the Olympics happened as a convenience - that's how not-pressing his "security issues" were. The rest is simpering excuses being pushed by the FSB through RT to dozens of other "news" sites trying to get willing puppets and people angry at various western Governments to sympathize with their bullshit excuse for invading a country because they thought they could get away with it.
Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.
Go look at a map of the Soviet Union (preferably one with terrain features), and then compare it to a more current map. The current Russian border runs along the wide and indefensible European Plain from the Baltic to the Black Sea. The Soviet (and former Russian) borders ran from the Carpathian Mountains to Kaliningrad, a much more defensible position.
Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.
Even if Russia didn't have nukes -- having a non-mountainous border doesn't give a nation the right to invade and conquer its neighbor. There are tons of countries in the world with borders that are no more defensible than Russia's.
This is not about defense of Russia. Russia is not being threatened by Ukraine. It is purely the opposite. Russia wants to use its military to threaten and dominate its neighboring countries.
Well, after watching the USA use its military to threaten and dominate other countries, who can blame them for giving it a shot?
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
The thing is Russia doesn't think for a moment we have those ambitions. They invaded Crimea in essentially the same way they're invading the rest of the country now and none of that was a serious reaction to anything the U.S. did. I think it's very easy to become U.S.-focused on these matters but I don't think the U.S. is the primary concern for Russia in any of their decisions regarding Ukraine. Putin wants effective control over the old USSR republics, and when he sees an opportunity to either install a puppet government for that purpose or grab territory for that purpose, he does it. This time, he waited until after the Olympics to call somewhat less attention to himself (which failed) and for when he thinks the west is fairly weak in dealing with Covid and a pretty lackluster U.S. President so it just seemed like a good time for him to force a puppet government in Ukraine. Not because he thought the U.S. was imminently going to do jack shit in the region.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 05:22:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
It is not a whataboutism. It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 02:03:57 PMRussia has the gross national product of Spain. Over the last 500 years it has been attacked by Westerners almost a dozen times. Perhaps their current fears are unfounded, but they are not afraid of legions of Ukrainians pouring over their indefensible borders. They are afraid of a unified Europe pouring over their indefensible borders. Ignoring history, and ignoring our enemies motivations, concerns, even irrational fears... is foolish IMHO. But take care and enjoy the day!
Fear is a motivation for everyone, and a part of sitting at the big kid's table of the 21st century is that nobody gets to play the victim card and taken seriously except maybe for their own internal captive audiences. That goes for Russia, and it also goes for the 'century of humiliation' propaganda crowd.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
$10 internet bucks says that there will be no yes or no answer.
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 02:03:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.
Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.
Russia has the gross national product of Spain. Over the last 500 years it has been attacked by Westerners almost a dozen times. Perhaps their current fears are unfounded, but they are not afraid of legions of Ukrainians pouring over their indefensible borders. They are afraid of a unified Europe pouring over their indefensible borders. Ignoring history, and ignoring our enemies motivations, concerns, even irrational fears... is foolish IMHO.
I've known a lot of Russians, and none of them gave any indication of being afraid of an EU military invasion. Based on what I know, I simply don't buy your claim that the Russians are irrationally afraid of being invaded by Europe.
Some of these may feel Russia is being shut out of resources unfairly. There may be some who think they are fighting for the well-being of Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk. But fearing invasion is not on their mind.
As far as what the Russians are hearing and believing, I thought this piece by a Bulgarian acquaintance of mine was interesting. Apologies for phrasing as it is auto-translated from Bulgarian.
QuoteI want to bring your attention to an interesting paradox.
For nearly ten years, Putin's propaganda has been using the images and myths of the Second World War against power in Ukraine. Uses highly busy meaningful symbols, rhetoric and interpretations aimed at creating and maintaining specific strategic narratives, to shape the perception and emotional response to certain actions and events throughout the continuous process recalling the Great Patriotic War: the Ukrainian government was represented as "fascist", the Ukrainian army - as "executors" or "banderovts", a annexation of Crimea - as "the third defense of Sevastopol". The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is extremely powerful, it will always challenge the feelings and moods of a large part of the people living east of Berlin. The Soviet ideological machine carefully built and maintained this mythology for decades, planted it in the minds and hearts of the peoples of Eastern Europe, in places not quite successfully, in places partially, but in their own territorial borders - perfect.
The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is a shared mythology for Russians and Ukrainians, that is why it worked so well in the hybrid war. However, to a huge surprise to the Russian command, it seems that it works even better in the real war. Shared mythology is a two-blade knife. Didn't Putin's strategists predict this, didn't they expect it? Ukrainians studied history in the same textbooks, also read "Young Guard", cried at "A dawn is quiet here", marched in line with "Get up a huge country, get up on a deadly fight with a fascist force dark, with a cursed horde", taught and they are going to play the guitar with "Here Birds No they sing, trees do not grow, and only we grow shoulder to shoulder in the ground here. Just like the rest of us. Should not surprise us at all that they have risen up for a "holy war" against "racists" as they already call them on Twitter.
Therefore, contrary to all Putin's plans and expectations, Kyiv has not yet been taken over. Because Kyiv is not Kabul, Kyiv is "Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol... and they will defend him to the last person with radical, almost absurd gestures of heroism and sacrifice. So a boy self-exploded himself on a bridge to stop the military column, and one grandfather obstructed the way of the tanks with his tarot. Westerners don't quite understand similar meaningless gestures of sacrifice, but we understand them much better because we've watched the same movies, because we've read the same books, because we know what it means - "we need one victory, one for all - we're for there is no price."
Ukrainians are currently waging their Great Homeland War.
It seems they are at least talking with diplomats meeting one another. I suspect a deal will be made in a week or two. One where both guys can come off looking as good as a bad situation allows.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
The question was to Mistwell, but for my two cents, I think it's obvious that morally there is a single standard for all countries.
The rule for invading another sovereign nation are simple. Don't do it. If country A invades country B, then they are wrong - and country B is entitled to fight back. Further, country C and country D are justified in helping country B defend itself.
Lots of countries have engaged in unjustified wars of aggression in history - including Russia, Iraq, the U.S., Britain, France, etc. None of that makes it right when another country does it.
How do people imagine we even get Countries in the first place?
Quote from: Shasarak on February 28, 2022, 09:30:52 PM
How do people imagine we even get Countries in the first place?
God bequeathed a Map of All the World and the Proper and Approved National Boundaries to his only xir.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 05:22:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
It is not a whataboutism. It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.
I'd like Putin a shit-ton better if he decided to bomb Chatsworth instead of Kiev. One can only hope those mothballed nukes still got what it takes :/
A long but interesting and informative interview with a genuine Russian expert about this topic that's worth reading. From Politico, "Yes, He Would': Fiona Hill on Putin and Nukes (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340)"
Quote from: Shasarak on February 28, 2022, 09:30:52 PM
How do people imagine we even get Countries in the first place?
Faerie dust and unicorn farts. Every country on the planet has existed in its current, immutable state from the dawn of time except for those in the New World and Australia/New Zealand. Those were "stolen" from the conquerors, slavers and rapists who stole it from the people who came before them.
Don't argue with science bro. You some sort of nazi?
Quote from: KingCheops on February 28, 2022, 10:46:38 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 28, 2022, 09:30:52 PM
How do people imagine we even get Countries in the first place?
Faerie dust and unicorn farts. Every country on the planet has existed in its current, immutable state from the dawn of time except for those in the New World and Australia/New Zealand. Those were "stolen" from the conquerors, slavers and rapists who stole it from the people who came before them.
So the Ukrainians shouldn't get upset over being invaded - because it's just the normal way that countries get made, and it's no big deal?
I don't think that will go over big with them. Yes, lots of invasions have happened in history, just like lots of murders have happened and many other crimes - but that doesn't mean that it is acceptable.
Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 08:00:56 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 02:03:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.
Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.
Russia has the gross national product of Spain. Over the last 500 years it has been attacked by Westerners almost a dozen times. Perhaps their current fears are unfounded, but they are not afraid of legions of Ukrainians pouring over their indefensible borders. They are afraid of a unified Europe pouring over their indefensible borders. Ignoring history, and ignoring our enemies motivations, concerns, even irrational fears... is foolish IMHO.
I've known a lot of Russians, and none of them gave any indication of being afraid of an EU military invasion. Based on what I know, I simply don't buy your claim that the Russians are irrationally afraid of being invaded by Europe.
Some of these may feel Russia is being shut out of resources unfairly. There may be some who think they are fighting for the well-being of Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk. But fearing invasion is not on their mind.
As far as what the Russians are hearing and believing, I thought this piece by a Bulgarian acquaintance of mine was interesting. Apologies for phrasing as it is auto-translated from Bulgarian.
QuoteI want to bring your attention to an interesting paradox.
For nearly ten years, Putin's propaganda has been using the images and myths of the Second World War against power in Ukraine. Uses highly busy meaningful symbols, rhetoric and interpretations aimed at creating and maintaining specific strategic narratives, to shape the perception and emotional response to certain actions and events throughout the continuous process recalling the Great Patriotic War: the Ukrainian government was represented as "fascist", the Ukrainian army - as "executors" or "banderovts", a annexation of Crimea - as "the third defense of Sevastopol". The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is extremely powerful, it will always challenge the feelings and moods of a large part of the people living east of Berlin. The Soviet ideological machine carefully built and maintained this mythology for decades, planted it in the minds and hearts of the peoples of Eastern Europe, in places not quite successfully, in places partially, but in their own territorial borders - perfect.
The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is a shared mythology for Russians and Ukrainians, that is why it worked so well in the hybrid war. However, to a huge surprise to the Russian command, it seems that it works even better in the real war. Shared mythology is a two-blade knife. Didn't Putin's strategists predict this, didn't they expect it? Ukrainians studied history in the same textbooks, also read "Young Guard", cried at "A dawn is quiet here", marched in line with "Get up a huge country, get up on a deadly fight with a fascist force dark, with a cursed horde", taught and they are going to play the guitar with "Here Birds No they sing, trees do not grow, and only we grow shoulder to shoulder in the ground here. Just like the rest of us. Should not surprise us at all that they have risen up for a "holy war" against "racists" as they already call them on Twitter.
Therefore, contrary to all Putin's plans and expectations, Kyiv has not yet been taken over. Because Kyiv is not Kabul, Kyiv is "Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol... and they will defend him to the last person with radical, almost absurd gestures of heroism and sacrifice. So a boy self-exploded himself on a bridge to stop the military column, and one grandfather obstructed the way of the tanks with his tarot. Westerners don't quite understand similar meaningless gestures of sacrifice, but we understand them much better because we've watched the same movies, because we've read the same books, because we know what it means - "we need one victory, one for all - we're for there is no price."
Ukrainians are currently waging their Great Homeland War.
Greetings!
Jhkim, thank you for providing your Bulgarian friend's commentary on the war going on in Ukraine. That commentary is very interesting, and even inspiring.
I hope that Ukraine stands strong in these terrible times. I read about a former Ukrainian beauty queen and current model, some girl about 28 years old, evidently she has quit her job and other involvements, and has volunteered to serve in the Ukrainian military to fight against the Russian invaders. She told her followers in a message on IG (I think*) that the Russian invaders will all die on Ukrainian land! She held up an AK rifle at a shooting range, and says she has volunteered to be sent to the front lines.
I heard an interview with an elderly Ukrainian man that said he isn't going anywhere, and is ready to fight the Russians, and will kill them with his knife if he must.
Many Ukrainians are likewise inspired by President Zelensky's heroic speeches, actions, and commitment to fight the Russians to the end. President Zelensky said he isn't fleeing anywhere, flying out by helicopter, to escape. No, he has a helmet on and a rifle, and said he is staying right there in the streets of Kiev with his soldiers by his side and his people, to resist the Russian invaders.
Fucking Awesome! Zelensky is really showing his true quality by going through the trial of fire.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 05:22:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
It is not a whataboutism. It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.
So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not? I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong. I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.
Quote from: SHARK on March 01, 2022, 04:50:23 AM
Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 08:00:56 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 02:03:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on February 28, 2022, 12:39:30 PM
Russia has legitimate security concerns. That is the first thing we need to acknowledge. If this had been accepted 8 years ago we would not be in the current situation.
Russia is a fucking nuclear power with a massive military. No one is threatening to invade and conquer Russia - certainly not Ukraine. And if Russia were invaded, it doesn't have to defend itself by deploying troops on foot along its border like in the 19th century.
Russia has the gross national product of Spain. Over the last 500 years it has been attacked by Westerners almost a dozen times. Perhaps their current fears are unfounded, but they are not afraid of legions of Ukrainians pouring over their indefensible borders. They are afraid of a unified Europe pouring over their indefensible borders. Ignoring history, and ignoring our enemies motivations, concerns, even irrational fears... is foolish IMHO.
I've known a lot of Russians, and none of them gave any indication of being afraid of an EU military invasion. Based on what I know, I simply don't buy your claim that the Russians are irrationally afraid of being invaded by Europe.
Some of these may feel Russia is being shut out of resources unfairly. There may be some who think they are fighting for the well-being of Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk. But fearing invasion is not on their mind.
As far as what the Russians are hearing and believing, I thought this piece by a Bulgarian acquaintance of mine was interesting. Apologies for phrasing as it is auto-translated from Bulgarian.
QuoteI want to bring your attention to an interesting paradox.
For nearly ten years, Putin's propaganda has been using the images and myths of the Second World War against power in Ukraine. Uses highly busy meaningful symbols, rhetoric and interpretations aimed at creating and maintaining specific strategic narratives, to shape the perception and emotional response to certain actions and events throughout the continuous process recalling the Great Patriotic War: the Ukrainian government was represented as "fascist", the Ukrainian army - as "executors" or "banderovts", a annexation of Crimea - as "the third defense of Sevastopol". The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is extremely powerful, it will always challenge the feelings and moods of a large part of the people living east of Berlin. The Soviet ideological machine carefully built and maintained this mythology for decades, planted it in the minds and hearts of the peoples of Eastern Europe, in places not quite successfully, in places partially, but in their own territorial borders - perfect.
The mythology of the Great Patriotic War is a shared mythology for Russians and Ukrainians, that is why it worked so well in the hybrid war. However, to a huge surprise to the Russian command, it seems that it works even better in the real war. Shared mythology is a two-blade knife. Didn't Putin's strategists predict this, didn't they expect it? Ukrainians studied history in the same textbooks, also read "Young Guard", cried at "A dawn is quiet here", marched in line with "Get up a huge country, get up on a deadly fight with a fascist force dark, with a cursed horde", taught and they are going to play the guitar with "Here Birds No they sing, trees do not grow, and only we grow shoulder to shoulder in the ground here. Just like the rest of us. Should not surprise us at all that they have risen up for a "holy war" against "racists" as they already call them on Twitter.
Therefore, contrary to all Putin's plans and expectations, Kyiv has not yet been taken over. Because Kyiv is not Kabul, Kyiv is "Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol... and they will defend him to the last person with radical, almost absurd gestures of heroism and sacrifice. So a boy self-exploded himself on a bridge to stop the military column, and one grandfather obstructed the way of the tanks with his tarot. Westerners don't quite understand similar meaningless gestures of sacrifice, but we understand them much better because we've watched the same movies, because we've read the same books, because we know what it means - "we need one victory, one for all - we're for there is no price."
Ukrainians are currently waging their Great Homeland War.
Greetings!
Jhkim, thank you for providing your Bulgarian friend's commentary on the war going on in Ukraine. That commentary is very interesting, and even inspiring.
I hope that Ukraine stands strong in these terrible times. I read about a former Ukrainian beauty queen and current model, some girl about 28 years old, evidently she has quit her job and other involvements, and has volunteered to serve in the Ukrainian military to fight against the Russian invaders. She told her followers in a message on IG (I think*) that the Russian invaders will all die on Ukrainian land! She held up an AK rifle at a shooting range, and says she has volunteered to be sent to the front lines.
I heard an interview with an elderly Ukrainian man that said he isn't going anywhere, and is ready to fight the Russians, and will kill them with his knife if he must.
Many Ukrainians are likewise inspired by President Zelensky's heroic speeches, actions, and commitment to fight the Russians to the end. President Zelensky said he isn't fleeing anywhere, flying out by helicopter, to escape. No, he has a helmet on and a rifle, and said he is staying right there in the streets of Kiev with his soldiers by his side and his people, to resist the Russian invaders.
Fucking Awesome! Zelensky is really showing his true quality by going through the trial of fire.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
So the beauty queen story was complete bullshit. She posed with an airsoft rifle, and later stated she is not going to be fighting as she is not military.
Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 09:12:43 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
The question was to Mistwell, but for my two cents, I think it's obvious that morally there is a single standard for all countries.
The rule for invading another sovereign nation are simple. Don't do it. If country A invades country B, then they are wrong - and country B is entitled to fight back. Further, country C and country D are justified in helping country B defend itself.
Lots of countries have engaged in unjustified wars of aggression in history - including Russia, Iraq, the U.S., Britain, France, etc. None of that makes it right when another country does it.
The USA has a stated standard for getting involved with military force on foreign soil, for legal purposes. It is extremely thin. Now I think the standard used is bad, and does not match your, or my moral standard. You say one bad thing does not justify another...but the reality is if the rules to not apply to everyone, eventually they apply to no one. I suspect this is why mistwell ducks that question. We can all pretend Russia happened in some vacuum, but that simply is not the case. With almost all major world events there is usually a history, a build up, and surrounding behaviors from other nations.
I want this to stand out crystal clear, because in the press, internet, social media, everywhere I see a whole lot of what looks like an overtime effort to manufacture consent. Given how out of pocket some of the talking heads are getting it is for some sort of military actions, like a no fly zone enforced by "nato". I am a firm no on this or any military action, I am honestly against giving the Ukraine military money or weapons...but compromise....
The same folks who keep saying Putin is literally darth vader also pretend he is bluffing about using nuclear weapons. I do not think I care to risk if darth vader is willing to use the death star.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:51:06 AMI am honestly against giving the Ukraine military money or weapons...but compromise....
I understand the situation is complex, but don't mince words. If you comprise with someone that takes and doesn't give back: thats called a loss.
Say Ukraine must take its lumps for the sake of international security, but don't call it "compromise".
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:51:06 AMI am honestly against giving the Ukraine military money or weapons...but compromise....
I understand the situation is complex, but don't mince words. If you comprise with someone that takes and doesn't give back: thats called a loss.
Say Ukraine must take its lumps for the sake of international security, but don't call it "compromise".
I mean in the sense of the actions my fearless leaders are going to take. Capitulate is a better word, but I like feeling better and calling a turd a rare gem. I am against any foreign aid for any nation, at least until I see the USA budget running at a surplus, so I get to make lots of mental "compromises". So I did not mean it in the sense Ukraine needs to get curb stomped as a compromise.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 07:05:14 AMSo I did not mean it in the sense Ukraine needs to get curb stomped as a compromise.
So far most of the equipment military aid has been EU.
And capitulation for what? Ukraine getting its ass handed to it? Im so sorry this is such a turd for you.
The West should have made better trade deals or not overthrown the elected government to deny the Ukraine to Putin when he was offering money, not mortars.
As I said. I don't want WW3 for Ukraine, but im not sure how this is a Turd for the USA.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 07:21:39 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 07:05:14 AMSo I did not mean it in the sense Ukraine needs to get curb stomped as a compromise.
So far most of the equipment military aid has been EU.
And capitulation for what? Ukraine getting its ass handed to it? Im so sorry this is such a turd for you.
The West should have made better trade deals or not overthrown the elected government to deny the Ukraine to Putin when he was offering money, not mortars.
As I said. I don't want WW3 for Ukraine, but im not sure how this is a Turd for the USA.
The Turd for me, is giving money to other countries, any country, while the budget in the USA has run at a deficit for about 40+ years in a row. Most equipment is relative. Stinger missiles are lots of bang for the buck.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 07:32:51 AM
The Turd for me, is giving money to other countries, any country, while the budget in the USA has run at a deficit for about 40+ years in a row. Most equipment is relative. Stinger missiles are lots of bang for the buck.
As a United States Citizen, fair enough. Though most of that is medical and welfare related.
Im left with conflicting emotions and desires. I want the USA to stop playing politics with other nations fir at the very least its own good. But I also don't want Ukraine to be taken by force by Russia. But I also want less people to die because I don't see Ukraine getting better after this war. And I don't want Nuclear escalation. But I don't want to return to 1900 style conquest theatrics.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 07:43:15 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 07:32:51 AM
The Turd for me, is giving money to other countries, any country, while the budget in the USA has run at a deficit for about 40+ years in a row. Most equipment is relative. Stinger missiles are lots of bang for the buck.
As a United States Citizen, fair enough. Though most of that is medical and welfare related.
Im left with conflicting emotions and desires. I want the USA to stop playing politics with other nations fir at the very least its own good. But I also don't want Ukraine to be taken by force by Russia. But I also want less people to die because I don't see Ukraine getting better after this war. And I don't want Nuclear escalation. But I don't want to return to 1900 style conquest theatrics.
I would have a different opinion if the USA ran a surplus in the budget as to how generous it should be, giving away money you do not have though....
I imagine you are conflicted. I am too. I hope it gets resolved with a minimum of lost life, freedom, and property. I think the issue with referring to 1900 conquest theatrics, is it goes back way further. It is almost the inevitable consequence of civilization that there is war. I remember reading Will Durant making a point about the establishment of civilization is establishing what become massive inequalities among people. It was a point I never considered too deeply, and he made it almost 90 years ago in his first book in his Western Civilization series.
I think human nature is the issue with war. Until that is changed there is always going to be conflict and a struggle (and often the struggles seem more based on wants than needs) for resources that end up culminating in wars. So I agree on all points that it is a bad situation.
It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 01, 2022, 08:27:03 AM
It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.
Yeah...the accounting on a lot of that money is dubious at best. I do think it is pretty amazing how some of the people working over in DC can be an aide to a senator/politician and still manage to hold down 3-4 other full time jobs, often as consultants making 100k+ per year from each side gig. Very hard working those folks.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 01, 2022, 08:27:03 AM
It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.
Are you thinking of the Clintons in Haiti?
I think that's true to a large degree, but that's because cronyism has its hands in everything. How did Biden and Pelosi get so rich? It wasn't their salaries.
But specifically regarding foreign aid, even the money that ends up on the ground and in the hands of reasonably reputable aid organizations is mostly wasted. I have friends who were involved in international humanitarian aid, and from the bribes to showing up with truckloads of supplies only to have the local mayor show up with armed guards and say "I'll take that" (hell, that sometimes happens in the US), very little gets to the people who need it. And the little that does is a pass-through, because the ruling class first took off a huge cut. Foreign aid, even with the best intentions and ostensibly for the most humanitarian of purposes, always goes to support the regime. Sending rice to North Korea just perpetuates the problem that is North Korea.
So ironically, I have less of a problem with giving countries weapons than food. It may backfire (Afghanistan anyone?), but at least it's not pretending to be anything other than an attempt to prop up/knock down a country.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 07:55:08 AMI think the issue with referring to 1900 conquest theatrics, is it goes back way further.
But the game has changed. My internal problem with going "well wars always happen" is that wars where also always instigated and supported/ aided by foreign powers as well.
If you take away the moral argument, then the USA has done everything right. Russias economy is sabotaged, Putin is forever denied a willing Ukraine, bidens dealings are buried in ash, the citizens are distracted, and Ukraine foots the bill.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 08:56:48 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 07:55:08 AMI think the issue with referring to 1900 conquest theatrics, is it goes back way further.
But the game has changed. My internal problem with going "well wars always happen" is that wars where also always instigated and supported/ aided by foreign powers as well.
If you take away the moral argument, then the USA has done everything right. Russias economy is sabotaged, Putin is forever denied a willing Ukraine, bidens dealings are buried in ash, the citizens are distracted, and Ukraine foots the bill.
Oh for certain "warfare" these days is mostly winning influence with dirty money and innuendo. Also MUCH more efficient means of spreading propaganda. Not tanks and bombs. And heck, once we remove the moral argument, many drug cartels down south are banging out great results from their business ventures. I consider politicians of most nations to simply be gangsters. My problems with any of it just do not matter. Elections are brought up as a means of "change", but even then you get a couple choices that the powers that be vetted for you. I guess at this point it is a race to perfect social and genetic engineering to create a more controllable human -OR- the spread of rot gets deep enough some societies collapse. Maybe some of both.
And yeah Ukraine gets the bill, the thing is it is not in $$, its in blood.
The Western countries have just upped the ante and the Doomsday Clock is another minute closer to midnight
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putins-black-belt-revoked-by-international-taekwondo-organization/ar-AAUqvyR
They took away Putin's honorary 9th dan black belt.
Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 08:53:28 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 01, 2022, 08:27:03 AM
It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.
Are you thinking of the Clintons in Haiti?
I think that's true to a large degree, but that's because cronyism has its hands in everything. How did Biden and Pelosi get so rich? It wasn't their salaries.
But specifically regarding foreign aid, even the money that ends up on the ground and in the hands of reasonably reputable aid organizations is mostly wasted. I have friends who were involved in international humanitarian aid, and from the bribes to showing up with truckloads of supplies only to have the local mayor show up with armed guards and say "I'll take that" (hell, that sometimes happens in the US), very little gets to the people who need it. And the little that does is a pass-through, because the ruling class first took off a huge cut. Foreign aid, even with the best intentions and ostensibly for the most humanitarian of purposes, always goes to support the regime. Sending rice to North Korea just perpetuates the problem that is North Korea.
So ironically, I have less of a problem with giving countries weapons than food. It may backfire (Afghanistan anyone?), but at least it's not pretending to be anything other than an attempt to prop up/knock down a country.
Not just the Clintons. I think a huge reason why the people keep having problems with their elected representatives is that they're already seduced by the easy money. It's like that fucking meme. 'It's free real estate!'. Except it's 'It's free money!'.
But yes. Foreign aid is prone to getting chewed apart before it even gets close to the people who need it. African nations are notorious for that shit, though it's not unique to them.
Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 09:33:06 AM
The Western countries have just upped the ante and the Doomsday Clock is another minute closer to midnight
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putins-black-belt-revoked-by-international-taekwondo-organization/ar-AAUqvyR
They took away Putin's honorary 9th dan black belt.
I knew he was big into judo his whole life, but I guess that is the first time I have seen his name and TKD together. I do not think he has ever trained even a day. I guess that says a lot about TKD.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 09:33:06 AM
The Western countries have just upped the ante and the Doomsday Clock is another minute closer to midnight
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putins-black-belt-revoked-by-international-taekwondo-organization/ar-AAUqvyR
They took away Putin's honorary 9th dan black belt.
I knew he was big into judo his whole life, but I guess that is the first time I have seen his name and TKD together. I do not think he has ever trained even a day. I guess that says a lot about TKD.
More seriously, I think this feels like a combination a social credit system and you don't own anything, from the Great Reset. Sanctions should be targeted and specific, not an open-ended invitation for everyone to virtue signal by dogpiling an unpopular world figure. And if you give someone an award, supposedly for some accomplishment, you shouldn't be able to take it away, for something unrelated. Awards should be for accomplishments, not contingent on social standing. Even if it is a meaningless honorary nothing.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:11:51 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 05:22:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
It is not a whataboutism. It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.
So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not? I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong. I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.
You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.
Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 10:08:44 AM
More seriously, I think this feels like a combination a social credit system and you don't own anything, from the Great Reset. Sanctions should be targeted and specific, not an open-ended invitation for everyone to virtue signal by dogpiling an unpopular world figure. And if you give someone an award, supposedly for some accomplishment, you shouldn't be able to take it away, for something unrelated. Awards should be for accomplishments, not contingent on social standing. Even if it is a meaningless honorary nothing.
I agree. This feels repulsive. This isn't much different then shit like freedom fries and texas toast.
Perhaps our 'top men' in the Beltway could be arsed to pay fucking attention to what people are telling them (or maybe they ARE paying attention).
https://peterbeinart.substack.com/p/bidens-cia-director-doesnt-believe?utm_source=url
QuoteTwo years ago, Burns wrote a memoir entitled, The Back Channel. It directly contradicts the argument being proffered by the administration he now serves. In his book, Burns says over and over that Russians of all ideological stripes—not just Putin—loathed and feared NATO expansion. He quotes a memo he wrote while serving as counselor for political affairs at the US embassy in Moscow in 1995. 'Hostility to early NATO expansion," it declares, "is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here." On the question of extending NATO membership to Ukraine, Burns' warnings about the breadth of Russian opposition are even more emphatic. "Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin)," he wrote in a 2008 memo to then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. "In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin's sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests."
You want to argue that Russia is wrong? Fine. But it doesn't fucking matter, because this was something they were going to freak the fuck out about regardless of the motivations.
I can't wait for the SOTU speech tonight. Who wants to place bets on the potato going off his meds and babbling?
Quote from: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:11:51 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 05:22:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
It is not a whataboutism. It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.
So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not? I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong. I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.
You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.
What is YOUR standard. Its not what suits me. I have one stand regarding war, and I have made it crystal clear. I am curious as to yours. It has a whole lot to do with the topic. So is your answer your standard is whatever suits you?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 10:21:51 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 10:08:44 AM
More seriously, I think this feels like a combination a social credit system and you don't own anything, from the Great Reset. Sanctions should be targeted and specific, not an open-ended invitation for everyone to virtue signal by dogpiling an unpopular world figure. And if you give someone an award, supposedly for some accomplishment, you shouldn't be able to take it away, for something unrelated. Awards should be for accomplishments, not contingent on social standing. Even if it is a meaningless honorary nothing.
I agree. This feels repulsive. This isn't much different then shit like freedom fries and texas toast.
Not sure I get the analogy.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 01, 2022, 10:24:26 AM
I can't wait for the SOTU speech tonight. Who wants to place bets on the potato going off his meds and babbling?
Who wants to bet that the media will quote him, but the quote will be their translation of what he really means, instead of Biden's actual words?
Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 11:40:14 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 01, 2022, 10:24:26 AM
I can't wait for the SOTU speech tonight. Who wants to place bets on the potato going off his meds and babbling?
Who wants to bet that the media will quote him, but the quote will be their translation of what he really means, instead of Biden's actual words?
I like to watch his speeches when the sign language person is there. The hands up confused look is awesome.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 10:21:51 AM
I agree. This feels repulsive. This isn't much different then shit like freedom fries and texas toast.
To be fair, Texas toast is it's own thing, it wasn't a rename of French Toast the way "Freedom Fries" was.
French Toast is bread drenched in an egg batter and fried. Texas toast is bread cut extra thick (per the line "everything is bigger in Texas") then toasted with garlic butter and sometimes cheese.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 01, 2022, 01:31:05 PM
To be fair, Texas toast is it's own thing, it wasn't a rename of French Toast the way "Freedom Fries" was.
French Toast is bread drenched in an egg batter and fried. Texas toast is bread cut extra thick (per the line "everything is bigger in Texas") then toasted with garlic butter and sometimes cheese.
Yeah, the lady at the breakfast place just explained the difference to me. So yeah: texas toast is great.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:11:51 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 05:22:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
It is not a whataboutism. It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.
So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not? I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong. I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.
You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.
What is YOUR standard. Its not what suits me. I have one stand regarding war, and I have made it crystal clear. I am curious as to yours. It has a whole lot to do with the topic. So is your answer your standard is whatever suits you?
For WHAT? I have not argued the U.S. should intervene militarily. I am saying Russia should not be invading Ukraine over them doing literally NOTHING to Russia, and are not accused of doing anything to Russia or harboring anyone who did anything to Russia or Russian citizens. Every war event should be individually analyzed on it's own merits and there isn't some one-size-fits-all standard for everything, but on this one the reasons for the invasion are incredibly weak and it's not justified and appears to be purely opportunistic.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 07:21:39 AM
The West should have made better trade deals or not overthrown the elected government to deny the Ukraine to Putin when he was offering money, not mortars.
It seems like the Ukraine government has found out what happens when you win stupid games.
Nobody be messing with my Texas Toast!
(https://rasamalaysia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cheesy-garlic-texas-toast1.jpg)
Quote from: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 03:17:42 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:11:51 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 05:22:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
It is not a whataboutism. It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.
So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not? I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong. I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.
You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.
What is YOUR standard. Its not what suits me. I have one stand regarding war, and I have made it crystal clear. I am curious as to yours. It has a whole lot to do with the topic. So is your answer your standard is whatever suits you?
For WHAT? I have not argued the U.S. should intervene militarily. I am saying Russia should not be invading Ukraine over them doing literally NOTHING to Russia, and are not accused of doing anything to Russia or harboring anyone who did anything to Russia or Russian citizens. Every war event should be individually analyzed on it's own merits and there isn't some one-size-fits-all standard for everything, but on this one the reasons for the invasion are incredibly weak and it's not justified and appears to be purely opportunistic.
I asked you before if every nation should adhere to the same standards the USA uses before taking military action on foreign soil. It is a pretty clear question. It is a yes or no question. That said, I agree 100 percent (as I have said pages ago) Russia is in the wrong here.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:51:06 AM
Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 09:12:43 PM
The question was to Mistwell, but for my two cents, I think it's obvious that morally there is a single standard for all countries.
The rule for invading another sovereign nation are simple. Don't do it. If country A invades country B, then they are wrong - and country B is entitled to fight back. Further, country C and country D are justified in helping country B defend itself.
Lots of countries have engaged in unjustified wars of aggression in history - including Russia, Iraq, the U.S., Britain, France, etc. None of that makes it right when another country does it.
The USA has a stated standard for getting involved with military force on foreign soil, for legal purposes. It is extremely thin. Now I think the standard used is bad, and does not match your, or my moral standard. You say one bad thing does not justify another...but the reality is if the rules to not apply to everyone, eventually they apply to no one. I suspect this is why mistwell ducks that question.
I feel this is mixing up personal stance with international standards. You have your personal standard of "no foreign wars" - but no one actually sticks to that - certainly not the U.S. I have my stance of purely defensive wars against an aggressor, but again, countries don't abide by it. If I had a magic wand to have my way, I would enforce it on all countries including the U.S. - but I don't.
---
As for what the international standard for war is in practice... Since WWII, the standard to be seen as tolerable/legitimate is that the target is seen as an aggressor in general (though they aren't necessarily invading) or "rogue state", and there be at least a broad coalition on one side, and no coalition on the other side. For example, there were people against the 2003 Iraq War (like you and me), but it was broadly accepted because:
(1) Hussein had twice engaged in aggressive wars against his neighbors (Iran and Kuwait).
(2) There were about a dozen countries signed on to invade Iraq, and no allies of Iraq.
Contrary to some claims, the Iraq War was not authorized by the U.N., but most wars haven't been. I don't like this as an international standard, but it's better than pure free-for-all like in the 19th century.
By this standard, the Russian invasion of Ukraine doesn't fit. Ukraine is not a rogue state, and has not invaded its neighbors. Its government has been accepted even by Russia - who had previously recognized the Zelensky government as the legitimate government and they had diplomatic ties with. Russia made no attempt to build a coalition against Ukraine.
I think people here are operating from two moralities: optimal, and practical.
Optimal morality operates from 'don't hurt others, no wars, no killing' etc.
While practical operates from 'Context and situation'.
While I may be positing practical as 'smarter' practical can also just lead to no morality, so both are required.
From a optimal morality angle, Putin is the bad guy. He could have made smarter plays, and Bombing Kiev (its escalating slowly to full on destruction) is just evil.
But practical morality treats putin as a hive of wasps. It will do a thing we know from its behaviour. Don't provoke it, or some will suffer the consequences.
I don't think people operating under any of these moralities are bad. Except Socks who thinks this is a game.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 03:26:34 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 03:17:42 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:11:51 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 05:22:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
It is not a whataboutism. It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.
So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not? I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong. I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.
You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.
What is YOUR standard. Its not what suits me. I have one stand regarding war, and I have made it crystal clear. I am curious as to yours. It has a whole lot to do with the topic. So is your answer your standard is whatever suits you?
For WHAT? I have not argued the U.S. should intervene militarily. I am saying Russia should not be invading Ukraine over them doing literally NOTHING to Russia, and are not accused of doing anything to Russia or harboring anyone who did anything to Russia or Russian citizens. Every war event should be individually analyzed on it's own merits and there isn't some one-size-fits-all standard for everything, but on this one the reasons for the invasion are incredibly weak and it's not justified and appears to be purely opportunistic.
I asked you before if every nation should adhere to the same standards the USA uses before taking military action on foreign soil. It is a pretty clear question. It is a yes or no question. That said, I agree 100 percent (as I have said pages ago) Russia is in the wrong here.
And I have said consistently there is no single standard and you don't get virtue signaling points for claiming you have some philosophical one-size-fits-all standard which addresses all conceivable circumstances for war. So yeah, they should be held to the same standard, which is "Judge each event on it's own merits and circumstances."
I know the Vatican has tried to develop a Just War single standard. I'd say they have mostly failed to truly succeed in that effort. It seems like every time a war breaks out and they try to apply the standard it comes right back to the standard I just articulated. It's at best a wishy-washy vague standard.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 03:55:01 PM
I think people here are operating from two moralities: optimal, and practical.
I think if we stick to two binary moralities then you would have: Oughtism and Practical
Quote from: Shasarak on March 01, 2022, 04:32:48 PMI think if we stick to two binary moralities then you would have: Oughtism and Practical
This was a generalization.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 04:11:13 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 03:26:34 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 03:17:42 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 01, 2022, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:11:51 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 05:22:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2022, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 28, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 28, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.
And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.
Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore. I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.
Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.
I am not giving him benefit of the doubt. I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides. I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.
People screech whataboutism on some things where it does not apply. This is a cause and effect situation. You do enough things, there are going to be effects. We are seeing effects.
We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?
It is not a whataboutism. It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil. The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line. So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion. That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward. But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.
So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else? I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.
This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.
So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not? I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong. I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.
You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.
What is YOUR standard. Its not what suits me. I have one stand regarding war, and I have made it crystal clear. I am curious as to yours. It has a whole lot to do with the topic. So is your answer your standard is whatever suits you?
For WHAT? I have not argued the U.S. should intervene militarily. I am saying Russia should not be invading Ukraine over them doing literally NOTHING to Russia, and are not accused of doing anything to Russia or harboring anyone who did anything to Russia or Russian citizens. Every war event should be individually analyzed on it's own merits and there isn't some one-size-fits-all standard for everything, but on this one the reasons for the invasion are incredibly weak and it's not justified and appears to be purely opportunistic.
I asked you before if every nation should adhere to the same standards the USA uses before taking military action on foreign soil. It is a pretty clear question. It is a yes or no question. That said, I agree 100 percent (as I have said pages ago) Russia is in the wrong here.
And I have said consistently there is no single standard and you don't get virtue signaling points for claiming you have some philosophical one-size-fits-all standard which addresses all conceivable circumstances for war. So yeah, they should be held to the same standard, which is "Judge each event on it's own merits and circumstances."
I know the Vatican has tried to develop a Just War single standard. I'd say they have mostly failed to truly succeed in that effort. It seems like every time a war breaks out and they try to apply the standard it comes right back to the standard I just articulated. It's at best a wishy-washy vague standard.
The United States does have a standard though. It boils down to a reasonable belief that actors in that foreign nation pose a risk to national security. It is vague, and easily used to allow missiles to launch into Syria or dictators to die in Libya. That standard was even used for a massive invasion of Iraq. Toss in shitloads of outright meddling in other countries with giving "freedom fighters" (terrorists) guns, that is not the point here though. If we use that standard Russia could try to make a case. There should be no standard that allows a case for what Russia has done.
As for me and my personal position, it is not a virtue signal. It is just my opinion to which I am entitled. Just as you are fully entitled to what I assume is a Neocon position on war.
Quote from: jhkim on March 01, 2022, 03:41:30 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 01, 2022, 06:51:06 AM
Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2022, 09:12:43 PM
The question was to Mistwell, but for my two cents, I think it's obvious that morally there is a single standard for all countries.
The rule for invading another sovereign nation are simple. Don't do it. If country A invades country B, then they are wrong - and country B is entitled to fight back. Further, country C and country D are justified in helping country B defend itself.
Lots of countries have engaged in unjustified wars of aggression in history - including Russia, Iraq, the U.S., Britain, France, etc. None of that makes it right when another country does it.
The USA has a stated standard for getting involved with military force on foreign soil, for legal purposes. It is extremely thin. Now I think the standard used is bad, and does not match your, or my moral standard. You say one bad thing does not justify another...but the reality is if the rules to not apply to everyone, eventually they apply to no one. I suspect this is why mistwell ducks that question.
I feel this is mixing up personal stance with international standards. You have your personal standard of "no foreign wars" - but no one actually sticks to that - certainly not the U.S. I have my stance of purely defensive wars against an aggressor, but again, countries don't abide by it. If I had a magic wand to have my way, I would enforce it on all countries including the U.S. - but I don't.
---
As for what the international standard for war is in practice... Since WWII, the standard to be seen as tolerable/legitimate is that the target is seen as an aggressor in general (though they aren't necessarily invading) or "rogue state", and there be at least a broad coalition on one side, and no coalition on the other side. For example, there were people against the 2003 Iraq War (like you and me), but it was broadly accepted because:
(1) Hussein had twice engaged in aggressive wars against his neighbors (Iran and Kuwait).
(2) There were about a dozen countries signed on to invade Iraq, and no allies of Iraq.
Contrary to some claims, the Iraq War was not authorized by the U.N., but most wars haven't been. I don't like this as an international standard, but it's better than pure free-for-all like in the 19th century.
By this standard, the Russian invasion of Ukraine doesn't fit. Ukraine is not a rogue state, and has not invaded its neighbors. Its government has been accepted even by Russia - who had previously recognized the Zelensky government as the legitimate government and they had diplomatic ties with. Russia made no attempt to build a coalition against Ukraine.
What I want personally is never going to happen in this country as a justification for war. The USA's standard is essentially a reasonable belief that actors in a foreign nation could pose a threat to national security. That is thin. Your revision of history regarding Iraq leaves out lots of key details. Such as the support of the USA for Iraq to fight Iran. The massive financial support from Kuwait to Iraq to pay for fighting Iran (this was where Kuwait started angle drilling to steal Iraqi oil, as they said it was debt money and they were entitled, which irritated Iraq since they did all the fighting and dying to keep Shia Iran from running all over Sunni Kuwait), as well as the massive majority of support for the war in Iraq was leveraged behind 9/11. The Coalition you speak of, well come on man, a group of countries that relies heavily on the USA for trade, foreign aid, protection, and arms sales decided the USA was right? Wowzers.
The news has gotten truly weird. Most of the initial stories about heroic Ukrainian resistance, like the beauty queen taking up (Airsoft) arms, the Ghost of Kyiv (video game footage), and Snake Island (not dead), are now discredited. A lot of the reports of things like bombing children now appear to be bullshit. Fact checkers are saying things are both true and untrue (did Russia oil imports double? Headline yes, body of the text no). As a result, there's been a wave of social credit style sanctions, technical arguments are being made to try to dismiss Russia from the UN Security Council (the seat was for the USSR, not Russia), and the EU now has a resolution for admitting the Ukraine. On the counter side, they're focusing on things like a member of the Ukrainian parliament who said on Twitter she's fighting for a "New World Order", or how the president of the Ukraine made what appears to be a communist salute in a Zoom meeting with the UN.
A massive propaganda campaign including complete fabrications, and extreme partisanship and virtue signaling, all "balanced" by conspiracy theory nonsense, means there's a decided lack of objective reporting. I'm not sure the land war matters anymore, this war is being fought in social media.
Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 05:18:41 PM
The news has gotten truly weird. Most of the initial stories about heroic Ukrainian resistance, like the beauty queen taking up (Airsoft) arms, the Ghost of Kyiv (video game footage), and Snake Island (not dead), are now discredited. A lot of the reports of things like bombing children now appear to be bullshit. Fact checkers are saying things are both true and untrue (did Russia oil imports double? Headline yes, body of the text no). As a result, there's been a wave of social credit style sanctions, technical arguments are being made to try to dismiss Russia from the UN Security Council (the seat was for the USSR, not Russia), and the EU now has a resolution for admitting the Ukraine. On the counter side, they're focusing on things like a member of the Ukrainian parliament who said on Twitter she's fighting for a "New World Order", or how the president of the Ukraine made what appears to be a communist salute in a Zoom meeting with the UN.
A massive propaganda campaign including complete fabrications, and extreme partisanship and virtue signaling, all "balanced" by conspiracy theory nonsense, means there's a decided lack of objective reporting. I'm not sure the land war matters anymore, this war is being fought in social media.
It's *all* political theater. How come we don't see all those Ukie and Russkie troops masked up and social distancing? How is it that both Zelenskyy and Putin are members of the WEF?
The same assholes who were virtue signaling about BLM and covid jabs are the same ones urging the west into fighting. The same ones who want to take away my 2A rights are cheering the arming of Ukrainians.
Fuck all of them - every single politician, "expert," pundit, opinionated celebrity, oligarch - they should all be thrown into one massive bonfire.
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 01, 2022, 07:50:08 PMHow is it that both Zelenskyy and Putin are members of the WEF?
While there are NWO members in the WEF, not each WEF member is part of it.
Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 05:18:41 PMA massive propaganda campaign including complete fabrications, and extreme partisanship and virtue signaling, all "balanced" by conspiracy theory nonsense, means there's a decided lack of objective reporting. I'm not sure the land war matters anymore, this war is being fought in social media.
The most I got is aquantances on the ground and its mostly hiding in fear of explosions. There are most certainly some people dying, some things exploded, and some people scared.
From the upper middle class perspective on the groun in russia its also panic and fear. Because of the sanctions and the unpersoning of Russian people.
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 28, 2022, 04:56:59 AM
Quote from: DocJones on February 27, 2022, 07:55:48 PM
Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the West behind
You do have a point.....
But on the other hand...
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout.
(https://idateadvice.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Russian-girl-in-fur.jpg)
Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 05:18:41 PM
A massive propaganda campaign including complete fabrications, and extreme partisanship and virtue signaling, all "balanced" by conspiracy theory nonsense, means there's a decided lack of objective reporting. I'm not sure the land war matters anymore, this war is being fought in social media.
I think the whole thing is a "Look there's a squirrel" operation.
The Brandon administration pointed at this squirrel for two months, until it became real.
Wish fulfillment for a failing administration.
Quote from: DocJones on March 01, 2022, 07:57:40 PMThe Brandon administration pointed at this squirrel for two months, until it became real.
Wish fulfillment for a failing administration.
Brandon gets to raise oil prices and fund more boondoggle alternate energies. Im not against them if they work, but they are often boondoggles.
In the beginning of all of this Ukraine was just some random country in Europe. But now, they are teaching the world we can still learn a thing or two.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 04:35:51 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 01, 2022, 04:32:48 PMI think if we stick to two binary moralities then you would have: Oughtism and Practical
This was a generalization.
I think we can agree that a ternary morality system is superior.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 07:52:32 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 01, 2022, 05:18:41 PMA massive propaganda campaign including complete fabrications, and extreme partisanship and virtue signaling, all "balanced" by conspiracy theory nonsense, means there's a decided lack of objective reporting. I'm not sure the land war matters anymore, this war is being fought in social media.
The most I got is aquantances on the ground and its mostly hiding in fear of explosions. There are most certainly some people dying, some things exploded, and some people scared.
From the upper middle class perspective on the groun in russia its also panic and fear. Because of the sanctions and the unpersoning of Russian people.
I don't doubt people are dying, and the fog of war is terrifying to anyone involved. But we're also being fed a lot of carefully curated nonsense.
Though it is really bizarre seeing the anti-gun left celebrating the arming of Ukrainian civilians. I suppose I should be used to hypocrisy at this point, and the complete lack of consistent principles, but apparently not.
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 02:09:49 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
Let the record show that on March 1st 2022 everything was completely under control...
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 02:09:49 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
How much does a pound of Ukrainian people go for these days?
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 02:09:49 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
I don't know if you have access to Twitter but found this a hilarious tweet about that:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1498845957663772672
I read that the Ukrainians will not be taxed on any captured Russian military gear. That's...nice...
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 01, 2022, 07:52:32 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 01, 2022, 07:50:08 PMHow is it that both Zelenskyy and Putin are members of the WEF?
While there are NWO members in the WEF, not each WEF member is part of it.
Maybe. That having been said, if the WEF is such a benign organization why are they mass deleting info from their website right now?
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 10:43:09 AM
Maybe. That having been said, if the WEF is such a benign organization why are they mass deleting info from their website right now?
I didn't say it was benign. They are the closest to modern day supervillains. Im just saying many people there are not part of the plan.
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 02:09:49 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
Well, he's certainly not as eloquent as DonaAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sorry I tried.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 11:36:16 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 02:09:49 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
Well, he's certainly not as eloquent as DonaAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sorry I tried.
It's pronounced Kievfayfay
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 11:36:16 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 02:09:49 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
Well, he's certainly not as eloquent as DonaAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sorry I tried.
It's ok to make fun of any politician's verbal gaffes. The difference is Trump's is a gaffe while Biden's is undeniably due to dementia.
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 01:19:45 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 11:36:16 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 02:09:49 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
Well, he's certainly not as eloquent as DonaAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sorry I tried.
It's ok to make fun of any politician's verbal gaffes. The difference is Trump's is a gaffe while Biden's is undeniably due to dementia.
Uh-huh. Be sure and also regurgitate the talking point about how frail he is compared to the mighty Trump LMAO.
"Who ya gonna believe, me, or your lyin' eyes?" Cope harder.
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 01:19:45 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 11:36:16 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 02:09:49 AM
"Putin may circle Kyiv with tanks, but he'll never gain the hearts and souls of the Iranian people."
-- Biden, State of the Union Address
Well, he's certainly not as eloquent as DonaAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sorry I tried.
It's ok to make fun of any politician's verbal gaffes. The difference is Trump's is a gaffe while Biden's is undeniably due to dementia.
Poor Joe. So frail. So demented.
I like how people can go from being heartbroken about the Ukrainians to arguing about which USA President is the worst in one easy step.
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.
Or discussing his slurred declarations.
Or anything else, really.
You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 02, 2022, 02:45:07 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.
Or discussing his slurred declarations.
Or anything else, really.
You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.
Go ahead and post your own clip, nothing stopping you. If Biden is so impaired, it should be easy to find a comparable unedited compilation.
That first one was JUST FROM 2019.
As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.
SLAVA UKRAINI
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 03:48:18 PM
As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.
Inflation is worth what? What did we get in exchange?
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 02, 2022, 02:45:07 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.
Or discussing his slurred declarations.
Or anything else, really.
You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.
Go ahead and post your own clip, nothing stopping you. If Biden is so impaired, it should be easy to find a comparable unedited compilation.
That first one was JUST FROM 2019.
As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.
SLAVA UKRAINI
Here ya go. This is just one of many...
https://youtu.be/hHEJSALygi0
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 04:08:54 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 03:48:18 PM
As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.
Inflation is worth what? What did we get in exchange?
[/quote
It's not always about what WE get. Caring about freedom means caring about everyone's freedom, not just your own. Putin has needed to get BTFO'd for a long time. Yes, I realize there are a lot of places and people in the world who need help. But I'm not gonna WHUDDABOUT anyone's struggle for freedom and sovereignty. Ukraine is a damn good start.
As far as what we get out of it, a stronger international community and worldwide backlash against dictatorial governments is pretty cool in my book. Putin took a gamble that his campaign to weaken NATO, divide the west, and fracture democracies worldwide would pay off dividends. So far, he appears to be losing. that bet. So far.
As a bonus, people everywhere are seeing what a REAL struggle for freedom looks like. Spoiler: it ain't having to wear a mask to go to Costco.
Win-win.
Luckily the Ghost of Kiev is there to give Putin his BTFO that no one else is man enough to do.
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 04:11:33 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 02, 2022, 02:45:07 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.
Or discussing his slurred declarations.
Or anything else, really.
You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.
Go ahead and post your own clip, nothing stopping you. If Biden is so impaired, it should be easy to find a comparable unedited compilation.
That first one was JUST FROM 2019.
As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.
SLAVA UKRAINI
Here ya go. This is just one of many...
https://youtu.be/hHEJSALygi0
Okay, but I specifically asked for one that isn't edited. Also, this one contains outright lies. Whereas the one I posted didn't. Sorry, I figured you wouldn't be able to find a comparable clip. I was right.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/01/brit-hume/geriatrics-experts-say-brit-humes-claim-joe-biden-/
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 04:15:18 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 04:08:54 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 03:48:18 PM
As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.
Inflation is worth what? What did we get in exchange?
It's not always about what WE get. Caring about freedom means caring about everyone's freedom, not just your own. Putin has needed to get BTFO'd for a long time. Yes, I realize there are a lot of places and people in the world who need help. But I'm not gonna WHUDDABOUT anyone's struggle for freedom and sovereignty. Ukraine is a damn good start.
As far as what we get out of it, a stronger international community and worldwide backlash against dictatorial governments is pretty cool in my book. Putin took a gamble that his campaign to weaken NATO, divide the west, and fracture democracies worldwide would pay off dividends. So far, he appears to be losing. that bet. So far.
As a bonus, people everywhere are seeing what a REAL struggle for freedom looks like. Spoiler: it ain't having to wear a mask to go to Costco.
Win-win.
Inflation is the cost of freedom, and inflation is what beat Putin?
<slowly backs away>
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 04:25:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 04:11:33 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 02, 2022, 02:45:07 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.
Or discussing his slurred declarations.
Or anything else, really.
You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.
Go ahead and post your own clip, nothing stopping you. If Biden is so impaired, it should be easy to find a comparable unedited compilation.
That first one was JUST FROM 2019.
As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.
SLAVA UKRAINI
Here ya go. This is just one of many...
https://youtu.be/hHEJSALygi0
Okay, but I specifically asked for one that isn't edited. Also, this one contains outright lies. Whereas the one I posted didn't. Sorry, I figured you wouldn't be able to find a comparable clip. I was right.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/01/brit-hume/geriatrics-experts-say-brit-humes-claim-joe-biden-/
Never confuse inability with laziness... I'm sure if I cared enough, I'd find multiple non-compilations. Hell, last night's SOTU, for one.
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 07:18:26 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 04:25:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 02, 2022, 04:11:33 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 02, 2022, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 02, 2022, 02:45:07 PM
I see tubesnake's not bothering to show the footage of Sleepy Joe stumbling repeatedly on the steps of AF1.
Or discussing his slurred declarations.
Or anything else, really.
You own this, tubesnake. Don't be shy. It's what you wanted. Gas and food prices skyrocketing, war in Ukraine, moribund economy, inflation. The whole nine yards.
Go ahead and post your own clip, nothing stopping you. If Biden is so impaired, it should be easy to find a comparable unedited compilation.
That first one was JUST FROM 2019.
As far as inflation and gas prices, it's not ideal, but given everything that's going on, I'll live. It's worth it. It's not forever.
SLAVA UKRAINI
Here ya go. This is just one of many...
https://youtu.be/hHEJSALygi0
Okay, but I specifically asked for one that isn't edited. Also, this one contains outright lies. Whereas the one I posted didn't. Sorry, I figured you wouldn't be able to find a comparable clip. I was right.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/01/brit-hume/geriatrics-experts-say-brit-humes-claim-joe-biden-/
Never confuse inability with laziness... I'm sure if I cared enough, I'd find multiple non-compilations. Hell, last night's SOTU, for one.
It's called 'he's brazenly hoping he can bullshit his way through the accusation'.
Joe Biden was never a great brain to start with. And now that his neurons are decaying into tapioca pudding, it's just getting worse.
Hey tubesnake, maybe you can get a job changing Gropey Joe's diapers when he shits them.
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2022, 04:32:20 PM
Inflation is the cost of freedom, and inflation is what beat Putin?
<slowly backs away>
If your countries main export is oil and energy then you really hate inflation.
:P
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/398075.php
Why exactly are we buying oil from Russia again?
I mean, we just can't seem to figure out how to hit them in the pocketbook. All we have to do is actually -use what we have-.
So go ahead, motherfuckers. Talk about 'treason'. Explain to me why we're buying Russian oil.
What's the general tenor people have been experiencing about this conflict? Are people falling for the propaganda to instigate WW3, or are people keeping their heads?
I find it hilarious there is a shortage of Ukraine flags because I think that flag generally sucks!
What an ironic twist to have Ukraine relevant after all these years.
Quote from: Zelen on March 03, 2022, 06:52:32 PM
What's the general tenor people have been experiencing about this conflict? Are people falling for the propaganda to instigate WW3, or are people keeping their heads?
Based upon what I'm seeing, most are falling for it. One has to only maintain a questioning attitude. The problem is that most people are educated enough to parrot what they've been told but not educated enough to question what they've been told.
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.
One also questions why the US hasn't stopped buying Russian oil - even though it's only a few % of our imports, it's still hard currency in Putin's warchest. Meanwhile, they're banning Russian and Belorussian cripples from the Paralympics and blocking Russian citizens' access to western media apple pay, and financial markets. It's all just virtue signalling bullshit because it doesn't actually penalize the Russian government (only the people) and it doesn't help the Ukrainians. Is Apple going to shut down FoxConn factories if China invades Taiwan? Meanwhile Russians are scrambling to open up accounts with Chinese banks...
Let's not lose sight of the fact that the West doesn't give a metric fuck-ton about Ukraine beyond the ability to use them against Russia. If the West *really* gave a shit without getting 8nvolved in another war adventure, they'd be putting supplies onto transport planes and closing China's access to western finance - but of course Ukrainians can't be seen wielding more western hardware than the older generation Javelins that Europe has given them and we don't *really* want to disrupt Russia while the current political theater is going on...
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.
This is big.
The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.
But it's just not our business.
The Elites in power have played all kinds of underhanded geopolitical games for rea$on$ that have fuck-all to do with the national security of the actual US citizenry.
They got their bluff called, and now they expect everyone to enthusiastically follow them into WW3.
Fuck that.
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
Let's not lose sight of the fact that the West doesn't give a metric fuck-ton about Ukraine beyond the ability to use them against Russia. ...
And as propaganda vehicle to distract the people from other issues...
(https://media.arkhaven.com/comics/series/48da6813-5d71-43c7-a2d6-f30a7c1b94af/episode/c91ae5e2-a460-4142-81c3-07394bbaa701/images/87bc42a1-6b1a-4c1c-9f7a-638ef3fa4ba6-WORLD+STAGE+300-1080w.png)
I'm very anti-Putin and sympathetic to the Ukrainians, but the propaganda is completely over the top and the way every nation is acting in lockstep is creepy beyond belief. Switzerland and Sweden are breaking with decades of neutrality, and Germany is actively supporting a war for the first time since what, WW2? And all this for a dubiously democratic nation nobody really cared about 2 weeks ago. This is mass media control and social credit score pressure on the national level. On the economic front they went from nah don't be silly to using the figurative nuclear option in a week. Combined with Russia's legitimate national security concerns, and how even Finland and Sweden are edging toward NATO membership as well -- do they not realize that trapping an animal in a corner with no way out is a bad idea when the animals has literal not figurative nukes? Not to mention the pressure on companies and individuals to support this war, leading to absolutely ridiculous cases of virtue signaling like banning Russian cats from cat shows, or people who are saying you can support a war by liking and sharing YouTubes and TikToks, and isn't that great?
I agree. Well I guess this is how war will happen with the internet now. Propaganda as strong as in the 1920s.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 03, 2022, 10:12:00 PM
I agree. Well I guess this is how war will happen with the internet now. Propaganda as strong as in the 1920s.
Way stronger.
Worse, we let women get involved in politics now. It's not a coincidence our political scene is driven by hyperemotionalism and herd mentality.
Quote from: Pat on March 03, 2022, 09:42:04 PM
I'm very anti-Putin and sympathetic to the Ukrainians, but the propaganda is completely over the top and the way every nation is acting in lockstep is creepy beyond belief. Switzerland and Sweden are breaking with decades of neutrality, and Germany is actively supporting a war for the first time since what, WW2? And all this for a dubiously democratic nation nobody really cared about 2 weeks ago. This is mass media control and social credit score pressure on the national level. On the economic front they went from nah don't be silly to using the figurative nuclear option in a week. Combined with Russia's legitimate national security concerns, and how even Finland and Sweden are edging toward NATO membership as well -- do they not realize that trapping an animal in a corner with no way out is a bad idea when the animals has literal not figurative nukes? Not to mention the pressure on companies and individuals to support this war, leading to absolutely ridiculous cases of virtue signaling like banning Russian cats from cat shows, or people who are saying you can support a war by liking and sharing YouTubes and TikToks, and isn't that great?
That's because Ukraine has been a haven for political money laundering. US politicians, on both sides of the aisle, funnel money to Ukraine via charities and programs, only to have a portion funneled back to them or their families. These folks aren't defending the Ukranian people; their defending their wallets...
Putin is a cunt. I feel sorry for the average Russian civilian.
Unfortunately, Russia is untouchable because of its nuclear capability. Otherwise, I'd love if Nato went in smashed Putin's Warmachine back to the stone age (not that they ever would of course).
But it wouldn't be a war... More like a special operation. lol
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 04, 2022, 07:28:05 AM
Putin is a cunt. I feel sorry for the average Russian civilian.
Unfortunately, Russia is untouchable because of its nuclear capability. Otherwise, I'd love if Nato went in smashed Putin's Warmachine back to the stone age (not that they ever would of course).
But it wouldn't be a war... More like a special operation. lol
Russia has a million men under arms. No mat how inept they are, a million bullets will find a few targets. As long you volunteer to be the first across the border, then I'm fine with it. But if you expect my kids to go without you, then I'm not so fine with your "plan"...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 04, 2022, 09:34:49 AM
But if you expect my kids to go without you, then I'm not so fine with your "plan"...
What plan...? My 'hypothetical' plan about intervening in Ukraine? If Putin didn't have nukes.. but he does. The Russians are untouchable. So your kids are safe. lol
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 03, 2022, 06:30:29 PM
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/398075.php
Why exactly are we buying oil from Russia again?
I mean, we just can't seem to figure out how to hit them in the pocketbook. All we have to do is actually -use what we have-.
So go ahead, motherfuckers. Talk about 'treason'. Explain to me why we're buying Russian oil.
It's a good point, and we shouldn't be. Just full stop this should have been the first thing we did. Yes we will all pay more for lots of things. So what. We can make that sacrifice. We shouldn't be buying their oil or gas. They should be cut off.
Quote from: Zelen on March 03, 2022, 06:52:32 PM
What's the general tenor people have been experiencing about this conflict? Are people falling for the propaganda to instigate WW3, or are people keeping their heads?
I don't know anyone who wants to militarily invade to oppose Russia if that's what you mean. I don't buy it's all propaganda either. That's as much bullshit spin as anything. 1000 events happen, you guys find three or four that are suspect, and spin the entire thing as if it's represented by those three or four. Meanwhile you tell us to not believe our lying eyes of constant video on the ground broadcast live from dozens of different and not related sources.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 03, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.
This is big.
The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.
But it's just not our business.
Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.
And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:12:45 AMOh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
Well its a different set of ethics. No nation does anything for free or truly because of the goodness of their heart. Denying this I feel sets the path for larger abuse.
The USa has motives for getting involved in other nations, but its not because of ethics.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 10:29:12 AM
The USa has motives for getting involved in other nations, but its not because of ethics.
Indeed... It's always self-serving while using the umbrella of 'we are so good'. Every nation does it as it's not very easy to justify a war to its people if there is no 'just cause'.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 03, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.
This is big.
The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.
But it's just not our business.
Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.
And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.
You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:09:37 AM
Quote from: Zelen on March 03, 2022, 06:52:32 PM
What's the general tenor people have been experiencing about this conflict? Are people falling for the propaganda to instigate WW3, or are people keeping their heads?
I don't know anyone who wants to militarily invade to oppose Russia if that's what you mean. I don't buy it's all propaganda either. That's as much bullshit spin as anything. 1000 events happen, you guys find three or four that are suspect, and spin the entire thing as if it's represented by those three or four. Meanwhile you tell us to not believe our lying eyes of constant video on the ground broadcast live from dozens of different and not related sources.
Because ALL the pundits/politicians and WEF operators disguissed as journalists clamoring for a no fly zone aren't clamoring for hot war with Russia...
When was the last time our inept & evil rulers didn't go down the slippery slope? Lindsay Graham is openly advocating for murder of Putin. The entire Washington/EU political class are determined to turn a regional conflict (that they provoked) into a nuclear world war.
We desperately need to clean house.
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.
Quote from: Zelen on March 04, 2022, 12:52:37 PM
When was the last time our inept & evil rulers didn't go down the slippery slope? Lindsay Graham is openly advocating for murder of Putin. The entire Washington/EU political class are determined to turn a regional conflict (that they provoked) into a nuclear world war.
We desperately need to clean house.
Won't someone rid me of this troublesome Priest?
I am sure that a general call to assassinate politicians will go exactly as well as anyone with half a brain could predict.
Unfortunately half a brain is such a high bar.
Assassination is, of course, a political weapon. An extreme one, but it's always there.
However, Graham needs to shut the fuck up. You don't publicly pull that out and wave it around. It's as ill advised as pulling a concealed pistol and brandishing it for no reason.
Well demanding his assasination has killed any micro-chance of Putin stepping down. Thanks Lindsay.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 03:59:16 PM
Well demanding his assasination has killed any micro-chance of Putin stepping down. Thanks Lindsay.
Also worth noting; he's also just justified Putin (who has always promised equivalent retaliation for what he sees as attacks on Russia) opening up the same tactic of assassination on the leadership of the Ukraine, America and NATO.
On the one hand, that's a horrific escalation. On the other hand, maybe if the elites were considered fair game and priority targets in war, they wouldn't try to start so many.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 04, 2022, 02:03:50 PM
Quote from: Zelen on March 04, 2022, 12:52:37 PM
When was the last time our inept & evil rulers didn't go down the slippery slope? Lindsay Graham is openly advocating for murder of Putin. The entire Washington/EU political class are determined to turn a regional conflict (that they provoked) into a nuclear world war.
We desperately need to clean house.
Won't someone rid me of this troublesome Priest?
I am sure that a general call to assassinate politicians will go exactly as well as anyone with half a brain could predict.
Unfortunately half a brain is such a high bar.
Yep. For every "good" politician calling for a world leader to be assassinated, there is a world leader who could call for that politician's assassination - and make good on the threat...
Well, on the bright side of World War 3, if we get a nuclear winter it will at least shut up the global warming nuts. #AlwaysLookOnTheBrightSideOfLife
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 10:29:12 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:12:45 AMOh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
Well its a different set of ethics. No nation does anything for free or truly because of the goodness of their heart. Denying this I feel sets the path for larger abuse.
The USa has motives for getting involved in other nations, but its not because of ethics.
Isolationism at it's heart is unethical, regardless of motives for getting involved with other nations. Nobody said or implied non-isolationism is altruistic or always ethical itself. But the basic principal of isolationism is unethical.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 03, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.
This is big.
The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.
But it's just not our business.
Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.
And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.
You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.
Oh please do tell me about what you think is the "ONE superpower currently committing genocide." This should be good. Might reveal your spots finally.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 01:48:41 PM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.
No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:48:33 PMIsolationism at it's heart is unethical.
Well thats a really unfair way of viewing people with different beliefs.
Well I think that goes more into your baseline beliefs about the role of government and intervention about what a person can do in day to day society. From my reading of you, you err much more on the 'interventionist' side.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:51:01 PM
No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.
The only sources I've found reporting limited, local cease-fires are flagrantly biased left wing outlets like TheHill, and the Washington Post, and they're the first things that appear in a Google search, so doubtless they're all propaganda and I won't bother linking to them.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:48:33 PMIsolationism at it's heart is unethical.
This I can help with though, I think the source here is more impartial:
https://guides.lib.uoguelph.ca/c.php?g=696372&p=4999533
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:51:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 01:48:41 PM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.
No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.
I dunno, is thewashington post a shitty source to you?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/)
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:49:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 03, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.
This is big.
The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.
But it's just not our business.
Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.
And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.
You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.
Oh please do tell me about what you think is the "ONE superpower currently committing genocide." This should be good. Might reveal your spots finally.
China, as if you didn't know.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 08:05:17 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:48:33 PMIsolationism at it's heart is unethical.
Well thats a really unfair way of viewing people with different beliefs.
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
QuoteWell I think that goes more into your baseline beliefs about the role of government and intervention about what a person can do in day to day society. From my reading of you, you err much more on the 'interventionist' side.
It depends on the circumstances, for any ethical being it depends on the circumstances. If it doesn't depend on the circumstances for you because you think there are no circumstances in which you'd help your neighbor in need when you have the means to do so, then you're unethical.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 09:41:01 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:51:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 01:48:41 PM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.
No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.
I dunno, is thewashington post a shitty source to you?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/)
Yes. Of course it's a shitty source. Is it seriously a good source in your view?
There isn't a cease fire in Ukraine. There are some "corridors" for some people to flee, but that's not a cease fire and has never been defined as a cease fire before.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 09:43:44 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:49:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 03, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.
This is big.
The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.
But it's just not our business.
Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.
And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.
You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.
Oh please do tell me about what you think is the "ONE superpower currently committing genocide." This should be good. Might reveal your spots finally.
China, as if you didn't know.
Ha! I honestly didn't know. I thought you were going to say something else. But I agree with you!
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:08:54 PMMy family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs."
Well all my great grandfathers died in WWII and my grandmothers mainly had to hide away in Siberia. While allot of our distant extended family was slaughtered by Nazis in mass graves (because we are jewish). So I counter your emotional put down with a put down of my own.
So let me repeat: you are being unfair to people with different beliefs. Your morality is binary and refuses to recognize nuance. Im not sure if there is any point in discussing an idea further if somebody is unwilling to even entertain the idea of them being wrong.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:11:48 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 09:41:01 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:51:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 01:48:41 PM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.
No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.
I dunno, is thewashington post a shitty source to you?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/)
Yes. Of course it's a shitty source. Is it seriously a good source in your view?
There isn't a cease fire in Ukraine. There are some "corridors" for some people to flee, but that's not a cease fire and has never been defined as a cease fire before.
Yes captain hindsight, it's easy to be correct after the fact. You asked for sources, there's a far left source (so one that agrees with you on most things) but now you declare it a shitty one... Because you need to win and will make up anything post hoc in order to do so.
Also let me point you to a little tidbit hidden in the first word of my post:
APPARENTLYYou might want to check the definition.
Anything else?
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:12:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 09:43:44 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:49:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 03, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.
This is big.
The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.
But it's just not our business.
Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.
And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.
You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.
Oh please do tell me about what you think is the "ONE superpower currently committing genocide." This should be good. Might reveal your spots finally.
China, as if you didn't know.
Ha! I honestly didn't know. I thought you were going to say something else. But I agree with you!
For at least 2 years it has been a major talking point all over the internet. But not on such far left publications as you read, so I'll grant you a MAYBE you didn't know.
My bet is you did but are a disingenuous twat.
Greetings!
Well, whatever a person wants to believe about "Isolationism". ;D I think the fucking Liberal Internationalist Interventionist philosophy is evil, corrupt bullshit. You can cover all that with self-righteous back-slapping and head-petting all you want--but the fact is, it is routinely used merely as a disguise to dupe the idealistic moron sheep and to cloak the deeper, more cynical and greedy motivations of the governments and corporations involved. Being the "World's Policeman" is a fucking fool's errand. Other nations take advantage and exploit the employment of American forces and the needless sacrifice of American lives and treasure--while they sit back in comfort and security, and rake in the profits.
Fuck that.
As far as the Jews and World War II go, well, demanding that the whole world embrace global war--as tragic and evil as the oppression of Jews by the Nazis during World War II was, there are still larger and legitimate concerns that entire nations seek alternatives to global war. In that regard, Jews are nothing special. There are individual groups of peoples that are oppressed, slaughtered, and exterminated all around the world, all the time. To think that *America* is somehow morally obligated to get involved in every fucking war--and even risk global war--because some group of people somewhere are oppressed--is simply not fair, not reasonable, and not realistic. It also may not even ultimately be ethical. So, NO. America is NOT obligated to offer itself up on the butcher's table itself for every fucking people being oppressed anywhere in the world. Let some other nations--neighbors--get involved. Otherwise, well, that's fucking life. Most other nations and peoples don't give a fuck about people on the other side of the world. That's Anthropology and Psychology 101. Human Nature, circles of relationship priority, and a natural preference for the "In Group". That's also just reality.
Beyond that, as I mentioned, there are all kinds of contexts and variables involved. Whether it is the US in early World War II, or even the other Western Allies, like with Czechoslovakia and Poland--there are very real limitations in regards to finances, resources, psychology, strategy, national security interests, and basic, raw military forces. *Morally* it was terrible for Czechoslovakia, for example, to be offered up in sacrifice to the Nazi beasts. However, the Czechs noble sacrifice was not in vain. Their sacrifice provided political impetus and also crucially, *time*, for the Western Allies to eventually be victorious. Whatever moral grandstanders may like to sniff and peddle to others--the fact is, prior to 1940 and onwards, the Western Allies in particular were genuinely in no condition to seriously challenge Nazi Germany, let alone embrace a global war. Britain and France were crushingly broke financially, exhausted psychologically and politically, confused strategically, and pathetically weak militarily, compared to Nazi Germany.
Furthermore, honestly, it wasn't just the enormous overall weakness of Britain and France--the United States was even weaker than either of the Western Allies were at the time.
There is a whole lot going on during those times, and for any nation at any time--as I mentioned, many contexts, variables, and factors, that are part of hard, absolute reality, and can not simply be waved away by snapping one's fingers and declaring it must be because it is therby moral to do so.
Simplistic, binary thinking in simple, absolute terms makes for a nice moral tale--but modern warfare requires much more than moral certitude.
As for Liberal Inetrnational Interventionism, as I mentioned, that philosophy is bankrupt and riddled with absolute corruption and stupidity. Instead of *one* nation being charged with being the "World's Policeman"--I think it is much more practical to allow local nations in whatever region--handle various issues and crisis that develop in their neighborhood. If they choose not to, then that is their burden to bear. Crisis's are expectedly most imprortant and meaningul to the relevant neighborhood--if they can't be bothered to rise to the challenge of whatever--then it is unreasonable and immoral for them to always expect or demand that America from the other side of the world come in and rescue them and clean their housefull of shit. That is a basic principle observed throughout the world by most every nation--again, rooted in Antropology and Psychology 101 and basic human nature.
If that idea rubs you the wrong way--then you sign the fuck up, or get your hildren to sign the fuck up, to go and fight in Europe; in Chinafor the Uigurs against the Chinese; in the Philippines, fighting against Communist rebels and Muslim insurgents; in Southeast Asia to fight in Burma; in Central America tofight against a range of rebel forces; in Africa, to fight against various rebel forces, revolutionaries, and Muslim fanatics; in Israel, to fight against Muslims; in India, to fight against Pakistani terrorist forces; in Yemen, to fight the various Iranian and Saudi Arabian factions there.
Those are just the current hot-spots of warfare, terrorism, oppression, and slaughter going on right now, currently. Every year, or every couple of years, strife, mayhem, and war breaks out somewhere in the world, usually with a confusing mixture of agendas, history, variables, and problems, typically barrels of more bullshit for everyone involved.
Personally, I don't like it, at all. It is all terrible and tragic. But expecting America to shoulder that burden is simply unrealistic, unfair, and ultimately, unreasonable. America doesn't want to be the fucking "World's Policeman".
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 11:40:26 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:08:54 PMMy family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs."
Well all my great grandfathers died in WWII and my grandmothers mainly had to hide away in Siberia. While allot of our distant extended family was slaughtered by Nazis in mass graves (because we are jewish). So I counter your emotional put down with a put down of my own.
So let me repeat: you are being unfair to people with different beliefs. Your morality is binary and refuses to recognize nuance. Im not sure if there is any point in discussing an idea further if somebody is unwilling to even entertain the idea of them being wrong.
And you cut the rest of my reply to you because it responded to what you're saying in a way that made you uncomfortable. My morality is far from binary - it's the opposite. But again, you cut that part because it doesn't fit with your very narrow view of how this works.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2022, 01:06:18 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:11:48 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 09:41:01 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:51:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 01:48:41 PM
Aparently a temporary cease fire has been negotiated between Ukraine and Russia. Lets hope they manage to cut a deal that allows Putin to save face in his country (because I don't think he would agree to anything else) and doesn't end with all of Ukraine under his boot. Praying for it.
No such cease-fire has been negotiated. Guess you're reading shitty sources again.
I dunno, is thewashington post a shitty source to you?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/)
Yes. Of course it's a shitty source. Is it seriously a good source in your view?
There isn't a cease fire in Ukraine. There are some "corridors" for some people to flee, but that's not a cease fire and has never been defined as a cease fire before.
Yes captain hindsight, it's easy to be correct after the fact. You asked for sources, there's a far left source (so one that agrees with you on most things) but now you declare it a shitty one... Because you need to win and will make up anything post hoc in order to do so.
Also let me point you to a little tidbit hidden in the first word of my post: APPARENTLY
You might want to check the definition.
Anything else?
I am not fat left, jackass. I am a moderate (who leans slightly right), and have never claimed sources like Washington Post are my "good" sources.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2022, 01:08:17 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:12:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 09:43:44 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:49:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2022, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 03, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.
This is big.
The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.
But it's just not our business.
Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
It's our business. It's not our business enough to invade and start WW3, but it's our business. We live in a world larger than ourselves. There will always be an excuse to not care about what happens outside our border. That excuse is usually just bullshit.
And the easy was to demonstrate the lie? This thread. People are interested more than just making sure we don't start WW3. Everyone here knows on some level it's everyone's business when one of the world powers militarily invades another nation without provocation and expects to see no push back from the rest of the world for their actions.
You won't find him arguing the same about the ONE superpower currently commiting genocide but hey, it's never about principles with him.
Oh please do tell me about what you think is the "ONE superpower currently committing genocide." This should be good. Might reveal your spots finally.
China, as if you didn't know.
Ha! I honestly didn't know. I thought you were going to say something else. But I agree with you!
For at least 2 years it has been a major talking point all over the internet. But not on such far left publications as you read, so I'll grant you a MAYBE you didn't know.
My bet is you did but are a disingenuous twat.
Oh for F's sake, a second accusation I am far left? Let me tell yah something buddy, I am the token Republican in most places I post and hang out. Just because I think all you q-anon Trumpers are jackasses who F'ed up the GOP doesn't make me "far left". Why did you think so many here accuse me of being a neo-con? Whatever you think of neo-cons, they're generally not interchangeable with "far left".
I ASSUMED you were going to say Israel because the last time on this very message board that someone who said the things you're saying got into this topic, that's the answer they gave.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 05, 2022, 01:14:00 PMAnd you cut the rest of my reply to you because....
That part relied on 'I have a personal emotional stake in this so shut the hell up', which is never a good point of argumentation. That betrays such a disrespect for conversation, debating the rest is pointless with you.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 05, 2022, 01:14:00 PMAnd you cut the rest of my reply to you because....
That part relied on 'I have a personal emotional stake in this so shut the hell up', which is never a good point of argumentation. That betrays such a disrespect for conversation, debating the rest is pointless with you.
No, that part absolutely did not. In fact the last part was completely unrelated to the first part and involved a separate quote. The only remaining question is did you just lie and think nobody would look at the post we're talking about, or was this an honest mistake?
When I say "it depends on the circumstances" as my position, there is no rational way for you to spin that as "moral inflexibility". So I assume you're just lying to get out of a discussion at this point, but i am open to you offering a different explanation.
Here is a reminder for others (not you because I know you saw it and then cut it and tried to spin it) of what was said that you cut:
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:08:54 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 04, 2022, 08:05:17 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 07:48:33 PMIsolationism at it's heart is unethical.
Well thats a really unfair way of viewing people with different beliefs.
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
QuoteWell I think that goes more into your baseline beliefs about the role of government and intervention about what a person can do in day to day society. From my reading of you, you err much more on the 'interventionist' side.
It depends on the circumstances, for any ethical being it depends on the circumstances. If it doesn't depend on the circumstances for you because you think there are no circumstances in which you'd help your neighbor in need when you have the means to do so, then you're unethical.
That's the position you called morally inflexible. My saying it depends on the circumstances. Just so everyone can see. The only opposite of that position is "there are no circumstances for which it could depend on" which goes back to the first point I made about isolationism. If you view "it depends on the circumstances" as morally inflexible, you're inherently saying there are no circumstances which you view intervention as acceptable. Which is why I said it's ironic you're the one calling my position "morally inflexible" when you've literally taken a spelled-out inflexible stance while mine is highly flexible of "it depends."
Quote from: Mistwell on March 05, 2022, 04:04:27 PM
QuoteYou can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs."
Quote[Insert Emotional Appeal Here]
QuoteIsolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
That's the position you called morally inflexible.
Yes. I just have learned over time that if somebody is utterly inflexible on certain points, and tells others to 'F yourself', its generally not worth my time engaging the point. Nothing will be accomplished.
I don't see as anybody elses efforts owed to me. I think its right to do good things, but I don't see those things as owed to me. I see isolationism and non-interventionism a valid if morally neutral aproach, not one I would do myself, but I wouldn't tell those people off for not seeing themselves as obligated to help me.
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2022, 02:37:39 AM
Greetings!
Well, whatever a person wants to believe about "Isolationism". ;D I think the fucking Liberal Internationalist Interventionist philosophy is evil, corrupt bullshit. You can cover all that with self-righteous back-slapping and head-petting all you want--but the fact is, it is routinely used merely as a disguise to dupe the idealistic moron sheep and to cloak the deeper, more cynical and greedy motivations of the governments and corporations involved. Being the "World's Policeman" is a fucking fool's errand. Other nations take advantage and exploit the employment of American forces and the needless sacrifice of American lives and treasure--while they sit back in comfort and security, and rake in the profits.
Fuck that.
[snip]
Personally, I don't like it, at all. It is all terrible and tragic. But expecting America to shoulder that burden is simply unrealistic, unfair, and ultimately, unreasonable. America doesn't want to be the fucking "World's Policeman".
Well put. Glad to see you can still post something more thoughtful than commie-killing fantasies.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 05, 2022, 01:17:44 PM
Oh for F's sake, a second accusation I am far left?
No, you're not.
I'm not a big fan of your posts lately, but GB is using one of the same tactics they deride. "Everyone I don't like is alt-right/a communist". Everything is seen from an Us vs. a Monolithic Them lens, which makes it very hard to talk about positions, people, and beliefs that don't slot neatly into one of popular political narratives.
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2022, 02:37:39 AM
Well, whatever a person wants to believe about "Isolationism". ;D I think the fucking Liberal Internationalist Interventionist philosophy is evil, corrupt bullshit. You can cover all that with self-righteous back-slapping and head-petting all you want--but the fact is, it is routinely used merely as a disguise to dupe the idealistic moron sheep and to cloak the deeper, more cynical and greedy motivations of the governments and corporations involved. Being the "World's Policeman" is a fucking fool's errand. Other nations take advantage and exploit the employment of American forces and the needless sacrifice of American lives and treasure--while they sit back in comfort and security, and rake in the profits.
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2022, 02:37:39 AM
Personally, I don't like it, at all. It is all terrible and tragic. But expecting America to shoulder that burden is simply unrealistic, unfair, and ultimately, unreasonable. America doesn't want to be the fucking "World's Policeman".
You're making this sound like being World Police was foisted on Americans by foreign countries and liberals - but America has generally been the one to push for more war from the mainstream of both parties - and more specifically, conservative Republican leaders like Bush have been even more hawkish than Democratic ones. Even Trump has had foreign involvement like his threats to North Korea.
There isn't just a binary choice between America's typical war-making, and complete isolationism. There is a more reasonable middle ground. I don't think America should be urging the rest of the world to war as it has typically done, but I think it should contribute proportionally to its size and economy similar to typical other democracies like Canada or Australia. That would mean drastically cutting back our military budget and standing army, and far less wars and arms sales than has been the norm for the past several decades - but we would still be involved in peace-keeping and other military actions and economic sanctions with other countries.
Quote from: jhkim on March 05, 2022, 05:43:47 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2022, 02:37:39 AM
Well, whatever a person wants to believe about "Isolationism". ;D I think the fucking Liberal Internationalist Interventionist philosophy is evil, corrupt bullshit. You can cover all that with self-righteous back-slapping and head-petting all you want--but the fact is, it is routinely used merely as a disguise to dupe the idealistic moron sheep and to cloak the deeper, more cynical and greedy motivations of the governments and corporations involved. Being the "World's Policeman" is a fucking fool's errand. Other nations take advantage and exploit the employment of American forces and the needless sacrifice of American lives and treasure--while they sit back in comfort and security, and rake in the profits.
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2022, 02:37:39 AM
Personally, I don't like it, at all. It is all terrible and tragic. But expecting America to shoulder that burden is simply unrealistic, unfair, and ultimately, unreasonable. America doesn't want to be the fucking "World's Policeman".
You're making this sound like being World Police was foisted on Americans by foreign countries and liberals - but America has generally been the one to push for more war from the mainstream of both parties - and more specifically, conservative Republican leaders like Bush have been even more hawkish than Democratic ones. Even Trump has had foreign involvement like his threats to North Korea.
I hope you realize you just contradicted yourself. Being World Police was foisted on America by the neoliberal elite, which includes the mainstream leaders of both parties. Americans in general rarely care about other countries, except when drummed into a demagogic furor, and that rarely lasts for long.
Quote from: Pat on March 05, 2022, 05:02:36 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2022, 02:37:39 AM
Greetings!
Well, whatever a person wants to believe about "Isolationism". ;D I think the fucking Liberal Internationalist Interventionist philosophy is evil, corrupt bullshit. You can cover all that with self-righteous back-slapping and head-petting all you want--but the fact is, it is routinely used merely as a disguise to dupe the idealistic moron sheep and to cloak the deeper, more cynical and greedy motivations of the governments and corporations involved. Being the "World's Policeman" is a fucking fool's errand. Other nations take advantage and exploit the employment of American forces and the needless sacrifice of American lives and treasure--while they sit back in comfort and security, and rake in the profits.
Fuck that.
[snip]
Personally, I don't like it, at all. It is all terrible and tragic. But expecting America to shoulder that burden is simply unrealistic, unfair, and ultimately, unreasonable. America doesn't want to be the fucking "World's Policeman".
Well put. Glad to see you can still post something more thoughtful than commie-killing fantasies.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Well, thank you, Pat! ;D
These kinds of discussions remind me of the many things I studied in my degree in Political Science--where I specialized in *International Relations*. Taking a deep dive into political machinery, political philosophy, diplomacy, and all that--it struck me, that from a more or less objective viewpoint, and at the same time affording many principle participants and political actors a measure of charity--the realization emerges that so very often in the international political arena, there are NO CLEAR MORAL CHOICES or feel-good victories. Many of the choices involved are typically between shitty and shittier. The selections are often bad, with an unavoidable menu of all parties involved getting fucked and losing--it is often just a matter of determining or trying to influence the degree of shit that different parties must deal with. These scenarios of course typically involve the US, and the US attempts to minimize the shit, and maximize any advantages or gains. The harsh political realities of these dynamics are the same to a large degree for every nation. Many scenarios are also damnably complex, with multiple competing interests and international actors, from nation-states, to individual leaders and ambassadors, Generals, and also individual corporations. Oftentimes, such political scenarios involve a mixture o some measure of shit and some measure of gain or benefit, for one party or another, or sometimes several, but it is also clear that many scenarios involve frustrating losses or poor results for several parties involved. Honestly, trying to apply self-righteous, simplistic, absolute morality in the environment of international relations is fucking laughable and fucking insane.
I'm reminded also of some studies I reviewed on the Carter Administration--where fellow Liberal Democrats and even staffers and members of Carter's administration when interviewed revealed that Carter was a sincere man that sought to often apply Christian morality and Christian principles to diplomacy and international relations--and such efforts and expectations by Carter met with constant frustration, confusion, and disappointment. The lynchpin for me was the official and advisors arguing with Carter back and forth an coming to grips with the realities that there were often no clear "Good Guys" and that many scenarios involved no one really winning and everyone being covered in shit. (Inspiring my previous commentary).
Of course, that begs the question, why can't absolute morality be applied in international politics? Well, because we do not live in a fantasy world. There are limited resources, limited money, and limitations of lives and blood. Then, there are also absolute differences in philosophy and values--and various people simply refuse to compromise on A, B, or C. When such participants are willing to fight to enforce their beliefs--or withhold their support or resources, you, your moral vision, and your grand plan--regardless of how personally morally satisfying it might be or even righteous--is fucked. In the real world, people--even political leaders and such--hold to different morals and values--or they hold largely the same morals and values as you, I, or us--but have them arranged in different priorities. That dynamic makes all the difference. You can see such dynamics involved in the debates between Interventionists and "Isolationists". Both can ascribe to morality, but order such in different priorities and weights, balancing such in a buffet-like list of objectives and goals. The harsh truth is that, depending on the scenario, either position can be right or wrong--or just as often, like my previous commentary--embracing a mix of being both good and bad at the same time.
Of course, our own moral convictions are good and critically important in many areas of life--including politics--but the fact is, insisting that political policy and foreign involvement--including embracing adventures and choices involving full-scale war--governed by a sense of absolute morality, is simply opening one's self up to absolute disaster and failure. Furthermore, since such policies are ostensibly guided and directed by such leadership embracing such--can also be hugely unethical, as such political choices are condemning millions of other people to suffer, sacrifice, and die, so that a nation state or a particular leader can enjoy a sense of moral righteousness and certitude. That's an arrogant and self-righteous position, and at the end of the day, it is difficult to avoid seeing such insistence as also a form of wickedness and evil.
International relations and foreign policy is an ugly business usually offering a range of bad choices, with very little room for absolute morality. Insisting on absolute moral policies is largely unrealistic--even if it is inspiring and makes us feel good--and often opens the door to even greater loss, humiliation, and lasting negative consequences or an even larger number of people.
International politics and foreign relations must always be pursued by intelligent, sober-minded, pragmatic individuals that keep the big pictire in mind and do not become blinded or obsessed with adherance to an unworkable absolute moral policy position.
And yes, to be honest, admitting such is not easy for me, because I as an individual embrace absolute morality in many ways. I *like* absolute morality. I like righteousness and the simple fierceeness of moral certainty! Applying such to international relations and foreign policy though, is frought with multiple dangers and often courts disaster and unforseen consequences that may be far worse than a more pragmatic approach would ensure.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Regarding Interventionism... I don't think failing to intervene is inherently evil because things are rarely that clear-cut. Just running into a hostage situation with guns blazing and no idea who is who and where they are is intervention... but it's stupid and will likely get at least some of the very people you're supposed to be trying to save killed; possibly even by you as one of them pops up from cover to run for the exit and had the misfortune of wearing a black coat while the hostage takers were wearing black hoodies.
Rather, the moral standard for intervention should be a bit like that of a doctor's oath... "Don't cause more problems than you're trying to solve."
You say we should intervene in Ukraine? Okay, tell us how. Tell us what is hoped to be gained. Tell us the expected costs. Tell us the realistic case and worst case consequences. If the outlined plan doesn't make things worse, it's something I'm amenable to. If it's just "send over a bunch of our soldiers over to drag us all into WW3" then I suggest booking yourself a flight over there and volunteering for the front line first.
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2022, 08:14:05 PM
Of course, our own moral convictions are good and critically important in many areas of life--including politics--but the fact is, insisting that political policy and foreign involvement--including embracing adventures and choices involving full-scale war--governed by a sense of absolute morality, is simply opening one's self up to absolute disaster and failure. Furthermore, since such policies are ostensibly guided and directed by such leadership embracing such--can also be hugely unethical, as such political choices are condemning millions of other people to suffer, sacrifice, and die, so that a nation state or a particular leader can enjoy a sense of moral righteousness and certitude. That's an arrogant and self-righteous position, and at the end of the day, it is difficult to avoid seeing such insistence as also a form of wickedness and evil.
It's the problem with socialism. Or any large centralized government. It's arrogant to assume you can choose for so many people, and to force them to your will, and it becomes murderously arrogant in practice.
It's the distance that makes it so monstrous. It's hard to turn on your friends, or neighbors, without outside pressure. But it's easy if everyone else is doing it, and you feel like you have no choice, or they'll turn on you as well. Genocide and totalitarian control walk hand in grisly hand.
The gray is what allows it to happen. No good choices, so you might as well make the most convenient one. This is why leaders become corrupt, because if everything's bad, why not pad your pockets, and help your allies, and pull a few strings or break a few rules to stay in power, because it might as well be you, right? It's also why the populace in general goes along, when tyrants spring up like weeds in a vast bureaucracy; because it's safer, more comfortable. Though of course it's even more insidious than that, because one excuse leads to another, and one hard choice makes the next one even easier. Over time, the moral window shifts to a gray that's nigh indistinguishable from black.
Free, small, and local is the only solution.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 05, 2022, 04:23:36 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 05, 2022, 04:04:27 PM
QuoteYou can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs."
Quote[Insert Emotional Appeal Here]
QuoteIsolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
That's the position you called morally inflexible.
Yes. I just have learned over time that if somebody is utterly inflexible on certain points, and tells others to 'F yourself', its generally not worth my time engaging the point. Nothing will be accomplished.
I don't see as anybody elses efforts owed to me. I think its right to do good things, but I don't see those things as owed to me. I see isolationism and non-interventionism a valid if morally neutral aproach, not one I would do myself, but I wouldn't tell those people off for not seeing themselves as obligated to help me.
Wow you actually went into the re-quote and cut more out but left it as if that was the quote without mentioning you had done that. What a lying fuck you are. I totally misread you. Huh
Quote from: Pat on March 05, 2022, 05:07:46 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 05, 2022, 01:17:44 PM
Oh for F's sake, a second accusation I am far left?
No, you're not.
I'm not a big fan of your posts lately, but GB is using one of the same tactics they deride. "Everyone I don't like is alt-right/a communist". Everything is seen from an Us vs. a Monolithic Them lens, which makes it very hard to talk about positions, people, and beliefs that don't slot neatly into one of popular political narratives.
I hate it when you're reasonable Pat. You make me have to consider if I've been unreasonable towards you, and that's uncomfortable.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 05, 2022, 10:33:05 PM
Regarding Interventionism... I don't think failing to intervene is inherently evil because things are rarely that clear-cut. Just running into a hostage situation with guns blazing and no idea who is who and where they are is intervention... but it's stupid and will likely get at least some of the very people you're supposed to be trying to save killed; possibly even by you as one of them pops up from cover to run for the exit and had the misfortune of wearing a black coat while the hostage takers were wearing black hoodies.
Rather, the moral standard for intervention should be a bit like that of a doctor's oath... "Don't cause more problems than you're trying to solve."
You say we should intervene in Ukraine? Okay, tell us how. Tell us what is hoped to be gained. Tell us the expected costs. Tell us the realistic case and worst case consequences. If the outlined plan doesn't make things worse, it's something I'm amenable to. If it's just "send over a bunch of our soldiers over to drag us all into WW3" then I suggest booking yourself a flight over there and volunteering for the front line first.
I agree with you. To put it coldly, it's a cost benefit analysis first. Will intervention result in more harm than benefit to the world is the first question. The second question is whether intervention is morally justified in itself. But if you're going to end up with WW3 out of it, then the first question says you don't militarily intervene even if it would be morally just to do so, and you find other ways to help short of military intervention.
This is an interesting translation of an article on what Russian officials seem to think of this war (https://ilyalozovsky.substack.com/p/what-russian-officials-think-of-the?s=r). It's a translation of a March 1 report by Farida Rustamova, a well-connected Russian journalist with deep sourcing in top levels of the Russian government.
The short of it is it seems like most Russian officials did not think they were going to war, and only thought they were supporting the break-away territories with a vote or voice of support. That Russian forces were suddenly outside of Kyiv was as much a shock as it was to everyone else. And many are pissed about it, and also afraid to speak out.
Quote from: Pat on March 06, 2022, 04:33:10 AM
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2022, 08:14:05 PM
Of course, our own moral convictions are good and critically important in many areas of life--including politics--but the fact is, insisting that political policy and foreign involvement--including embracing adventures and choices involving full-scale war--governed by a sense of absolute morality, is simply opening one's self up to absolute disaster and failure. Furthermore, since such policies are ostensibly guided and directed by such leadership embracing such--can also be hugely unethical, as such political choices are condemning millions of other people to suffer, sacrifice, and die, so that a nation state or a particular leader can enjoy a sense of moral righteousness and certitude. That's an arrogant and self-righteous position, and at the end of the day, it is difficult to avoid seeing such insistence as also a form of wickedness and evil.
It's the problem with socialism. Or any large centralized government. It's arrogant to assume you can choose for so many people, and to force them to your will, and it becomes murderously arrogant in practice.
It's the distance that makes it so monstrous. It's hard to turn on your friends, or neighbors, without outside pressure. But it's easy if everyone else is doing it, and you feel like you have no choice, or they'll turn on you as well. Genocide and totalitarian control walk hand in grisly hand.
The gray is what allows it to happen. No good choices, so you might as well make the most convenient one. This is why leaders become corrupt, because if everything's bad, why not pad your pockets, and help your allies, and pull a few strings or break a few rules to stay in power, because it might as well be you, right? It's also why the populace in general goes along, when tyrants spring up like weeds in a vast bureaucracy; because it's safer, more comfortable. Though of course it's even more insidious than that, because one excuse leads to another, and one hard choice makes the next one even easier. Over time, the moral window shifts to a gray that's nigh indistinguishable from black.
Free, small, and local is the only solution.
All well and good until the guys with the large, centralized government steamroll you while your local guys are trying to get support from the other local guys.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 07, 2022, 12:04:16 AM
All well and good until the guys with the large, centralized government steamroll you while your local guys are trying to get support from the other local guys.
There are plenty of small places surviving beside large centralised governments that are not being steamrolled.
Take a random country like Afghanistan for example.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 07, 2022, 12:10:39 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 07, 2022, 12:04:16 AM
All well and good until the guys with the large, centralized government steamroll you while your local guys are trying to get support from the other local guys.
There are plenty of small places surviving beside large centralised governments that are not being steamrolled.
Take a random country like Afghanistan for example.
Widespread gun ownership works.
The *one* good thing about this debacle is it is allowing me to proceed with development of my Twilight:2025 timeline (basically, taking Twilight:2013's rules set, cleaning it up, integrating the supplements, and advancing a more realistic timeline)... :o
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 07, 2022, 10:17:08 AM
The *one* good thing about this debacle is it is allowing me to proceed with development of my Twilight:2025 timeline (basically, taking Twilight:2013's rules set, cleaning it up, integrating the supplements, and advancing a more realistic timeline)... :o
What you call "good" is more like "opportunistic, insensitive, and in bad taste." But you do you.
This may be an emotional gut reaction after seeing images of places I actully know reduced to rubble but:
Maybe people would be less worried about Russia in regards to national security if Putin didn't demonstrate himself to be the absolutely unstable psychopath everybody accused him of.
I don't care how tiny of a dick that man has, none of this 'security concern' justifies what he is doing. 'Security Concerns' aren't going to foot the bill for the funarals the man has caused, let alone the infrastructure that will ensure Ukraine remains a ruin for a generation. You don't get the moral highground of needing a human shield so you grab a baby from a basket.
The entire effort is now 100% self-defeating. Every further act of demolition will now just further rile up NATO, and get everybody else to invest further into military spending.
And in terms of economical development, Russia is set back 30 years. Nobody is gonna want to go to 'KGB-town' for tourism in the near future.
And lets say you fully subjegate Ukraine. You gonna leave a military presence in a country the size of Texas for the next 10-20 years? Or will you be happy letting them be as a empty husk that would cheer at NATO going through its borders?
And have the fucking balls to call what your doing a fucking war you COWARD!
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 07, 2022, 10:21:51 PM
This may be an emotional gut reaction after seeing images of places I actully know reduced to rubble but:
Maybe people would be less worried about Russia in regards to national security if Putin didn't demonstrate himself to be the absolutely unstable psychopath everybody accused him of.
I don't care how tiny of a dick that man has, none of this 'security concern' justifies what he is doing. 'Security Concerns' aren't going to foot the bill for the funarals the man has caused, let alone the infrastructure that will ensure Ukraine remains a ruin for a generation. You don't get the moral highground of needing a human shield so you grab a baby from a basket.
The entire effort is now 100% self-defeating. Every further act of demolition will now just further rile up NATO, and get everybody else to invest further into military spending.
And in terms of economical development, Russia is set back 30 years. Nobody is gonna want to go to 'KGB-town' for tourism in the near future.
And lets say you fully subjegate Ukraine. You gonna leave a military presence in a country the size of Texas for the next 10-20 years? Or will you be happy letting them be as a empty husk that would cheer at NATO going through its borders?
And have the fucking balls to call what your doing a fucking war you COWARD!
I don't think anybody has said security concerns justify what Putin did. What I said, and I believe others did as well, is that Putin has some legitimate concerns about NATO's expansion. Potentially existential concerns, because he sees NATO as a military threat, and they're bigger, growing, and heading toward an even bigger footprint on his doorstep. That's bad, because it means Putin feels like a cornered dog. And cornered dogs are dangerous. That's why Putin is acting like the unstable psychopath, as you say.
This is something the West could have prevented, with pragmatic geopolitics and some concessions. The absolute worst thing they could do is escalate things, by publicly humiliating Putin, imposing sanctions that could cause an economic collapse, and turning his people against him, because that doesn't just threaten Russia's borders, it threatens Putin himself and makes it hard for him to trust anyone, thus making him even more erratic and unstable.
Oh wait, that's exactly what the West did.
I don't think we're at the nuclear precipice, but I think this could easily go down in history as a series of calamitous mistakes. Of course we could get lucky, and Putin might vanish in a coup. But it's a really bad idea to rely on that kind of dumb luck.
Quote from: Pat on March 07, 2022, 10:56:42 PMThat's why Putin is acting like the unstable psychopath, as you say.
At this point I have run out of any shred of respect I had for this dictator even from a pragmatic 'best of a bad lot' sort of way. What he is doing right now, in killing people, and demanding they thank him for it. Oh boo hoo, the dictator with a secret police feels like a cornered dog. Il be sure to send him a get well card.
The problem with dictators is that due to their rule being always based on a perpetual power balancing act, they cannot step down without fear of murder. So they have to retain power even as their faculties diminish and they feel unhealthy and weak. And as that happens the circle of trust shinks and they start to buy their own hype and enter delusions. Delusions like offering amnesty to refugees IN RUSSIA.
And I truly believed he wouldn't do something like this because its INSANE. I thought he was better then this. Better then what he was doing. That if even he did a war, it would at least be surgical and fast. But it has become brutality pretty quickly.
What concessions could be given to him to prevent this.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 07, 2022, 11:42:25 PM
What concessions could be given to him to prevent this.
Putin's biggest concern was the Ukraine joining NATO.
Quote from: Pat on March 07, 2022, 11:51:02 PM
Putin's biggest concern was the Ukraine joining NATO.
I know this is in many ways the Wests fault. Putin was getting buddy buddy with Ukraine, so the West tipped the table over so Putin thinks he can't play fair.
Then assasinate the President. Cause a civil war, maybe even bomb the parliment. The Ukraine president is a fuckwit authoritarian, so I hope he gets killed. But what is happening right now is delusion. And because his unfair play isn't getting the results he wanted, the bombings will continue until moral improves. This sort of action to me displays a fundemental instability. I find this means it would be a matter of 'When' not 'If' for these sorts of stuff to occur.
Ukraine paradoxically depended on Russia allot for an export market. Maybe threaten that with sanctions if you decide to join NATO.
But Putin is also a ex-KGB member with very unreasonable dreams about a return to empire. The State of russia as a whole is just...Too big for no reason. Maybe become a place that doesn't have a negative birth-rate first.
Edit/ TLDR: If the man was delusional enough to think that he could make a personal appeal to the military, and they would overthrow the current regieme and run into his arms and the citizens would throw a parade - what would discourage him from doing this NATO or no NATO?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 12:07:58 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 07, 2022, 11:51:02 PM
Putin's biggest concern was the Ukraine joining NATO.
I know this is in many ways the Wests fault. Putin was getting buddy buddy with Ukraine, so the West tipped the table over so Putin thinks he can't play fair.
Then assasinate the President. Cause a civil war, maybe even bomb the parliment. The Ukraine president is a fuckwit authoritarian, so I hope he gets killed. But what is happening right now is delusion. And because his unfair play isn't getting the results he wanted, the bombings will continue until moral improves. This sort of action to me displays a fundemental instability. I find this means it would be a matter of 'When' not 'If' for these sorts of stuff to occur.
Ukraine paradoxically depended on Russia allot for an export market. Maybe threaten that with sanctions if you decide to join NATO.
But Putin is also a ex-KGB member with very unreasonable dreams about a return to empire. The State of russia as a whole is just...Too big for no reason. Maybe become a place that doesn't have a negative birth-rate first.
Russia's a weird place. I don't think many people in the world, except maybe people who have traveled widely across the US and Canada, can really appreciate how big it is.
Upheaval in Russia could throw the entire Eurasian supercontinent into turmoil. Imagine Russia losing Primorsky Krai to China, for instance. And that's 6,000 miles away as the Transiberian Railroad chugs.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 12:07:58 AMEdit/ TLDR: If the man was delusional enough to think that he could make a personal appeal to the military, and they would overthrow the current regieme and run into his arms and the citizens would throw a parade - what would discourage him from doing this NATO or no NATO?
Nothing. It seems like this was always the plan from before the build up of forces along the border, and he only 'asked for everything and more' knowing any answer would almost certainly be no.
Now would be a great time for Chechnya to give breaking away another shot.
The problem with Chechenya is simple - most of both democratic and islamic rebels were killed or forced to emigrate (there is for instance quite soilid Chechen mafia in Western Europe from what I heard). And Chechenyans get basically nation-state from Putin in exchange for feudal military alliance. Wars and later Kadyrow politics drow Russians from Chechenya - and in 60's they were majority there (because Stalin banished all Chechens to Central Asia as he seen them untrustworthy).
So nowadays Chechenyans are like in best shape probably since Imperial Russian conquest of Caucasus, and they are in this shape thanks to alliance with Putin. They are warlike nation, they can accept I think being beaten into alliance by powerful warlord, and they will have no qualms to fight in his armies.
Although as it's warlike clannish society then Kadyrow probably have quite a lot personal and family enemies, that could use this fuck-up to try overpower him, more for sake of local power, than alliance with Russia.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/russia-says-it-is-ready-to-stop-invasion-in-a-moment-if-ukraine-meets-conditions
It looks like Putin realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew, finally. Note that there's no demand for a change in government, which you would think Putin would want (so he could install a puppet, natch).
I don't think Ukraine can hold out forever, though they can, in the immortal words of Hot Rod in Transformers, give them one humongous repair bill. Worse, though, is that Russian military doctrine for FISH (fighting in someone's house, i.e. urban combat) is to just shell it into rubble. So it might be for the best to take the offer (granted, I don't live in Ukraine, so they might think differently).
The downside is that the Biden regime will duly trot this out as a foreign policy win, alongside letting Iran get nukes. And continue to buy Russian oil, of course.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 07:53:24 AM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/russia-says-it-is-ready-to-stop-invasion-in-a-moment-if-ukraine-meets-conditions
It looks like Putin realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew, finally. Note that there's no demand for a change in government, which you would think Putin would want.
I hate to break it to you, but that's actually an escalation from Putin's initial demands.
Putin didn't call for regime change in his initial demands either... he demanded disarmament and neutrality in accord with a prior treaty (regime change only came up as "if necessary to achieve our goals").
Now he's demanding a change to their constitution to keep them out of NATO and recognition of his seizure of Crimea and independence of the Donbass region.
So, regardless of what our media is saying, Putin either believes he's winning or at least is using a traditional negotiating from strength tactic of turning up the pain with each refusal to comply. That could be a bluff, but regardless, he's acting like someone who thinks he's winning.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 08, 2022, 08:30:54 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 07:53:24 AM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/russia-says-it-is-ready-to-stop-invasion-in-a-moment-if-ukraine-meets-conditions
It looks like Putin realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew, finally. Note that there's no demand for a change in government, which you would think Putin would want.
I hate to break it to you, but that's actually an escalation from Putin's initial demands.
Putin didn't call for regime change in his initial demands either... he demanded disarmament and neutrality in accord with a prior treaty (regime change only came up as "if necessary to achieve our goals").
Now he's demanding a change to their constitution to keep them out of NATO and recognition of his seizure of Crimea and independence of the Donbass region.
So, regardless of what our media is saying, Putin either believes he's winning or at least is using a traditional negotiating from strength tactic of turning up the pain with each refusal to comply. That could be a bluff, but regardless, he's acting like someone who thinks he's winning.
Did you just skip past the rest of the post I made? I conceded that I didn't think Ukraine could win this.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 09:23:20 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 08, 2022, 08:30:54 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 07:53:24 AM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/russia-says-it-is-ready-to-stop-invasion-in-a-moment-if-ukraine-meets-conditions
It looks like Putin realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew, finally. Note that there's no demand for a change in government, which you would think Putin would want.
I hate to break it to you, but that's actually an escalation from Putin's initial demands.
Putin didn't call for regime change in his initial demands either... he demanded disarmament and neutrality in accord with a prior treaty (regime change only came up as "if necessary to achieve our goals").
Now he's demanding a change to their constitution to keep them out of NATO and recognition of his seizure of Crimea and independence of the Donbass region.
So, regardless of what our media is saying, Putin either believes he's winning or at least is using a traditional negotiating from strength tactic of turning up the pain with each refusal to comply. That could be a bluff, but regardless, he's acting like someone who thinks he's winning.
Did you just skip past the rest of the post I made? I conceded that I didn't think Ukraine could win this.
I didn't miss it. I was disagreeing with your assessment that Putin realizes he's bitten off more than he chew. Your assertion seemed to be that his asking for those terms was a sign of him backing off from his initial goals, but their actually ratcheted up from his initial goals, which suggests the opposite... that he's confident he can chew on this (or is at least bluffing that he can).
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 08, 2022, 08:30:54 AMSo, regardless of what our media is saying, Putin either believes he's winning or at least is using a traditional negotiating from strength tactic of turning up the pain with each refusal to comply. That could be a bluff, but regardless, he's acting like someone who thinks he's winning.
Well he can't actually act as somebody who thinks he is loosing. He is a dictator, and showing weakness is a path to death.
I personally believe he acts as somebody who is out of touch. If you have to rapidly up internal security in the nation as any sort of international buisness flees for the foreseable future as you have to send in KGB to aprehend their computers, that doesn't speak to me of a situation that has really given him anything.
Ukraine has already lost in any long-term aspect, but any victory Putin gains will be phyrric. Its already all for nothing effectively. Soldiers dying in Russia is just as unpopular in the US (thats why he allows for a provision for mass graves to cover this stuff up).
From my perspective he is 'going all in' effectively. If Ukraine was toppled in 3 days, he could get a win out of this and pose to the cameras. But now he has a ton of resources stuck there, he can't really take any of them back without looking weak and garunteeing that Ukraine joins Nato.
A different take that doesn't follow the usual narrative being blasted out by the Media Propaganda shills, the network these clips are from is generally just as bad an offender as any of the others:
3-2-2022
3-4-2022
3-7-2022
Another counterpoint to Hannity's neocon shilling...
Quote from: Pat on March 07, 2022, 11:51:02 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 07, 2022, 11:42:25 PM
What concessions could be given to him to prevent this.
Putin's biggest concern was the Ukraine joining NATO.
No it's all about Ukraine oil and gas. Russia wants all of it.
Putin believes the west and NATO to be feckless.
Unfortunately, he may be right about that.
When you look at his potential successors, they are as conservative as he is.
Quote from: DocJones on March 08, 2022, 06:15:39 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 07, 2022, 11:51:02 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 07, 2022, 11:42:25 PM
What concessions could be given to him to prevent this.
Putin's biggest concern was the Ukraine joining NATO.
No it's all about Ukraine oil and gas. Russia wants all of it.
Putin believes the west and NATO to be feckless.
Unfortunately, he may be right about that.
When you look at his potential successors, they are as conservative as he is.
It sure is a mystery how Ukraine has so many resources on one hand and is so poor on the other hand.
Cant even boost the economy by giving stacks of cash to Biden and running US Bioweapon Labs on the side.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 08, 2022, 06:32:07 PMIt sure is a mystery how Ukraine has so many resources on one hand and is so poor on the other hand.
Corruption and a lack of national identity. This is why cultural ties are so important.
An interesting thought.
Poland has offered to give the US all their MIG-29s to transfer to the Ukraine. Who provides spare parts when they fail or are damaged in combat? Is there a depot in the Ukraine or is all the supply chain for a Russian-designed aircraft still in Russia? The parent company of the former MiG is owned by the Russian government.
Another interesting thought.
All those western companies virtue signalling by closing up operations in Russia? You can pretty much expect they'll never operate there again - to the chagrin of shareholders...
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 08, 2022, 06:32:07 PMIt sure is a mystery how Ukraine has so many resources on one hand and is so poor on the other hand.
Corruption and a lack of national identity. This is why cultural ties are so important.
So who is to blame for the Ukrainian corrupt officials that decided not to take a large enough skim of the money laundering by corrupt western officials!
Quote from: Shasarak on March 08, 2022, 06:32:07 PM
It sure is a mystery how Ukraine has so many resources on one hand and is so poor on the other hand.
I'd like to introduce to South America, Africa, and most of Eastern Europe.
Corruption and broken institutions are the norm, not the exception. It's one of the key reasons why the US is still so competitive, despite shooting itself in the foot so many times. Other countries are typically much worse when it comes to corruption, rule of law, trust, and the other basics that underlie a thriving economy.
To reference SB's comment, if it helps forge a national identity, there's a chance this war might have some positive effects for Ukraine in the long run.
Quote from: Pat on March 08, 2022, 10:00:03 PMCorruption and broken institutions are the norm, not the exception. It's one of the key reasons why the US is still so competitive, despite shooting itself in the foot so many times. Other countries are typically much worse when it comes to corruption, rule of law, trust, and the other basics that underlie a thriving economy.
Pretty much. Its like magic.
QuoteTo reference SB's comment, if it helps forge a national identity, there's a chance this war might have some positive effects for Ukraine in the long run.
I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 10:10:50 PM
I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.
Quote from: Pat on March 08, 2022, 10:53:54 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 10:10:50 PM
I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.
You mean like West Taiwan?
Quote from: Shasarak on March 08, 2022, 11:15:36 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 08, 2022, 10:53:54 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 10:10:50 PM
I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.
You mean like West Taiwan?
That's my favorite.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 08, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
Corruption and a lack of national identity. This is why cultural ties are so important.
National identity got a big boost after the invasion and annexation of Crimea and the machinations of Putin in Donbas since. Some Pro-Russia Ethnic Russians (not all ethnic Russian Ukrainians are supportive of Russia) aren't happy with the push towards a Ukrainian identity and language but that hasn't been sufficient to stop changes in government there.
Ukraine still has a corruption problem, but it has improved quite a bit in the meantime.
QuoteIf Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.
This. (TBH If they want to go very Trad - They should rename themselves as Princedom of Rus with Great Princedom of Kiev being main province).
QuoteI hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
Ukraine as sense of separate nationality for Crown Rusyans exists about from XIX century? Before that there was generally one Rusyan identity in ethnic terms with different state identities. That's why Belarus for instance use Great Duchy of Lithuania symbolics, because one of aspects of Lukashenko policy is portraying Belarus as successor to GDL.
And Russia held Ukraine proper (ergo Great Princedom of Kiev, and Princedom of Chernihov) for about 300 years (including Soviet times). For most of this part it was simply part of Russia without any buffer state qualities.
More to chew on in the vein of THERE ARE NO WHITE HATS HERE...
Quote from: Jaeger on March 09, 2022, 05:33:30 PM
More to chew on in the vein of THERE ARE NO WHITE HATS HERE...
Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."
It's a cowardly and lazy position.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 09, 2022, 10:10:11 PM
...
Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."
It's a cowardly and lazy position.
LOL... Can you make it any more obvious that you didn't watch the video! The guy speaking is far from a fan of Putin.
And ROTFL at a few bad acts by all sides...
More disingenuous words of a warmongering shill that still thinks 'Team America World Police' is a good idea.
I'm applying the same standards to everyone involved.
You're the one spouting puerile nonsense like this:
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:08:54 PM
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
...
That is nothing less than a horrific emotionally driven appeal for perpetual war.
George Washington spoke with Great Wisdom:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
Quote...
Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.
Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality, we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.
Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice? ...
Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?
Because this is what following the ideal of "X could have been prevented sooner." really means:
Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".
But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao...
There was the Holodomor of 1932 to 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Where the Russian Commies committed mass genocide and killed around 3.5 million Ukrainians by starving them to death.
Then Stalin was all like: "Yes, not a bad start comrades, but I know that I can do better..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#:~:text=In%202011%2C%20after%20assessing%20twenty,policies%20are%20taken%20into%20account.
Soviet Gulags: 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.
The Soviet famine of 1932–1933: Add another 2-6 million dead on top of the Holodomor.
Judicial executions for political charges from 1929–53: According to official figures there were 777,975.
The Soviet famine of 1946–1947: An estimated 1 to 1.5 million lives lost.
Population transfer by the Soviet Union: The reported number of kulaks and their relatives who had died in labour colonies from 1932 to 1940 was 389,521.
According to Soviet archives, the heaviest mortality rate was documented in people from the Northern Caucasus (the Chechens, Ingush) with 144,704 deaths, or 24.7% of the entire deported population, as well as 44,125 deaths from Crimea, or a 19.3% mortality rate.
Katyn massacre: The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000.
Number of deaths of people by Stalinism, 1924–1953: Total estimated at somewhere around 7,231,000–9,551,000
Then Mao Zedong was all like: "Not bad for a bunch of round-eyed barbarians; here, hold my tea..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
From 1958 to 1962. Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes. Mao decreed that efforts to multiply grain yields and bring industry to the countryside should be increased. Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting non-existent "surpluses" and leaving farmers to starve.
Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million.
The Greatest Mass Murder in History
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/
Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge in Cambodia didn't want to be left behind, and they did the best that they could:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
By January 1979, 1.5 to 2 million people had died due to the Khmer Rouge's policies.
Then the Rwandan's had their day in the Sun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
The most widely accepted scholarly estimates are around 500,000 to 800,000 Tutsi deaths.
And the list goes on...
Just go HERE: Genocides in history (after World War II)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(after_World_War_II)
Funnily enough they don't list that one time starting in 2003 that the American Military killed 100 to 200,000 Iraqi civilians for no reason whatsoever.
Because: "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ!"
And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the "Ethical" thing to do...
Making ourselves the World Police because: "Isolationism is unethical." Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.
The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been...
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.
And Millions of innocent Ukrainian civilians are being fucked over because foreign nations on a power trip against each other can't keep it in their pants.
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022
So we need to send weapons to Ukraine and arm all the Neo-Nazis... Wait what?
(Not saying Russia is in the right here, just pointing out things aren't Black&White and probably there's no White Hats here.)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PMThere are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
Id say they had mor public prominence (for a while) then in Russia or United States. But does a bunch of neo-nazis larping in the forest justify shelling civilian sections?
If you didn't want to arm Ukraine there are much much much better reasons then 'A micro segment of the population are neo-nazis'.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 09, 2022, 11:03:54 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 09, 2022, 10:10:11 PM
...
Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."
It's a cowardly and lazy position.
LOL... Can you make it any more obvious that you didn't watch the video! The guy speaking is far from a fan of Putin.
And ROTFL at a few bad acts by all sides...
More disingenuous words of a warmongering shill that still thinks 'Team America World Police' is a good idea.
I'm applying the same standards to everyone involved.
You're the one spouting puerile nonsense like this:
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:08:54 PM
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
...
That is nothing less than a horrific emotionally driven appeal for perpetual war.
George Washington spoke with Great Wisdom:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
Quote...
Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.
Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality, we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.
Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice? ...
Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?
Because this is what following the ideal of "X could have been prevented sooner." really means:
Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".
But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao...
There was the Holodomor of 1932 to 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Where the Russian Commies committed mass genocide and killed around 3.5 million Ukrainians by starving them to death.
Then Stalin was all like: "Yes, not a bad start comrades, but I know that I can do better..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#:~:text=In%202011%2C%20after%20assessing%20twenty,policies%20are%20taken%20into%20account.
Soviet Gulags: 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.
The Soviet famine of 1932–1933: Add another 2-6 million dead on top of the Holodomor.
Judicial executions for political charges from 1929–53: According to official figures there were 777,975.
The Soviet famine of 1946–1947: An estimated 1 to 1.5 million lives lost.
Population transfer by the Soviet Union: The reported number of kulaks and their relatives who had died in labour colonies from 1932 to 1940 was 389,521.
According to Soviet archives, the heaviest mortality rate was documented in people from the Northern Caucasus (the Chechens, Ingush) with 144,704 deaths, or 24.7% of the entire deported population, as well as 44,125 deaths from Crimea, or a 19.3% mortality rate.
Katyn massacre: The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000.
Number of deaths of people by Stalinism, 1924–1953: Total estimated at somewhere around 7,231,000–9,551,000
Then Mao Zedong was all like: "Not bad for a bunch of round-eyed barbarians; here, hold my tea..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
From 1958 to 1962. Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes. Mao decreed that efforts to multiply grain yields and bring industry to the countryside should be increased. Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting non-existent "surpluses" and leaving farmers to starve.
Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million.
The Greatest Mass Murder in History
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/
Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge in Cambodia didn't want to be left behind, and they did the best that they could:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
By January 1979, 1.5 to 2 million people had died due to the Khmer Rouge's policies.
Then the Rwandan's had their day in the Sun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
The most widely accepted scholarly estimates are around 500,000 to 800,000 Tutsi deaths.
And the list goes on...
Just go HERE: Genocides in history (after World War II)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(after_World_War_II)
Funnily enough they don't list that one time starting in 2003 that the American Military killed 100 to 200,000 Iraqi civilians for no reason whatsoever.
Because: "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ!"
And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the "Ethical" thing to do...
Making ourselves the World Police because: "Isolationism is unethical." Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.
The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been...
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.
And Millions of innocent Ukrainian civilians are being fucked over because foreign nations on a power trip against each other can't keep it in their pants.
You know how easy it is to show you're unethical? Because you cut the second part of what I said, intentionally, which talked about how it depends on the circumstances.
The only reason to do that is because you wanted to spin what I was saying as me being pro-war and pro-intervention all the time. As opposed to what I actually said which was a blanket isolationism which doesn't ever ask if this is the exceptional circumstance where we should make the very rare decision to intervene is what I consider unethical.
You're a fraud Jaeger. A liar, and a fraud. This is your M.O. though. You take a position, and then if someone dares refute it, you take what they said back out of context and lie about it to make yourself feel better about your position. It's not genuine. You're not some internet badass. You're just a cowardly fraud.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022
"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.
You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!
Quote from: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022
"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.
You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!
Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?
So, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?
Fine, whats that third option then asshole?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 01:19:52 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022
"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.
You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!
Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?
Yes I did. Which does not in fact mean Interventionism is moral. Indeed, what I said was it depends on the circumstances. Which is in no way me saying "Interventionism is moral!" You lazy, lying fuck.
QuoteSo, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?
Yes of course there is a third position - the non-extremist one which does not paint the world as just black or white. I have not been beating the drums for interventionism and SAID THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS ON UKRAINE IS WE SHOULD NOT INTERVENE MILITARILY. I said it in this thread not long after the post you're talking about. So, did you see that and unethically pretended I didn't, or were you just lazy and didn't look? One or the other buddy.
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What's far fewer than "almost none"? A battalion?
Quote from: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:34:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 01:19:52 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022
"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.
You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!
Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?
Yes I did. Which does not in fact mean Interventionism is moral. Indeed, what I said was it depends on the circumstances. Which is in no way me saying "Interventionism is moral!" You lazy, lying fuck.
QuoteSo, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?
Yes of course there is a third position - the non-extremist one which does not paint the world as just black or white. I have not been beating the drums for interventionism and SAID THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS ON UKRAINE IS WE SHOULD NOT INTERVENE MILITARILY. I said it in this thread not long after the post you're talking about. So, did you see that and unethically pretended I didn't, or were you just lazy and didn't look? One or the other buddy.
So, you're basing your "non-Interventionism" on a cost benefit analysis and not on a moral basis, and yet those who say non-interventionism is the way to go are immoral AND lazy even when they are making the exact same analysis and weghing the US citizens interests and lifes and their math ends up with non-interventionism. But theirs is immoral and lazy but your's is not because reasons.
Also, that's not a third position dumbass. But you claim it is because reasons.
Yes, I'm the one saying it's black & white when I'm the one saying it's not and there's no white hats there. Dude, I'm an autist not an idiot.
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
Did you watch the video? Ukranian soldiers waving nazi flags, school children having nazi theater plays, even NATO accidentally posted a picture of a stronk independent neo-nazi wahmen.
Going by population size one would expect to see way less neo-nazis in Ukraine then the US or Russia. And yet you have the Ukranian president honoring a neo-nazi as hero of the nation, and an army battallion made up off neo-nazis.
Once more, this doesn't mean Russia are the good guys, but it sure means neither is Ukraine.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 01:43:26 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:34:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 01:19:52 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022
"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.
You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!
Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?
Yes I did. Which does not in fact mean Interventionism is moral. Indeed, what I said was it depends on the circumstances. Which is in no way me saying "Interventionism is moral!" You lazy, lying fuck.
QuoteSo, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?
Yes of course there is a third position - the non-extremist one which does not paint the world as just black or white. I have not been beating the drums for interventionism and SAID THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS ON UKRAINE IS WE SHOULD NOT INTERVENE MILITARILY. I said it in this thread not long after the post you're talking about. So, did you see that and unethically pretended I didn't, or were you just lazy and didn't look? One or the other buddy.
So, you're basing your "non-Interventionism" on a cost benefit analysis and not on a moral basis, and yet those who say non-interventionism is the way to go are immoral AND lazy even when they are making the exact same analysis and weghing the US citizens interests and lifes and their math ends up with non-interventionism. But theirs is immoral and lazy but your's is not because reasons.
Also, that's not a third position dumbass. But you claim it is because reasons.
Yes, I'm the one saying it's black & white when I'm the one saying it's not and there's no white hats there. Dude, I'm an autist not an idiot.
No I am not basing it purely on cost benefit analysis and if you actually look at the post in question (which you didn't) I specifically said it has to both pass the moral test for intervention AND the cost benefit analysis for intervention. I guess I am at the point where I can say you're lazy because you're still not willing to even look at what I said?
Here, yah lazy fuck. And don't pretend being on the spectrum makes it harder for you to look back at what someone said before responding to it. You're no victim here:
Quote from: Mistwell on March 06, 2022, 11:44:42 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 05, 2022, 10:33:05 PM
Regarding Interventionism... I don't think failing to intervene is inherently evil because things are rarely that clear-cut. Just running into a hostage situation with guns blazing and no idea who is who and where they are is intervention... but it's stupid and will likely get at least some of the very people you're supposed to be trying to save killed; possibly even by you as one of them pops up from cover to run for the exit and had the misfortune of wearing a black coat while the hostage takers were wearing black hoodies.
Rather, the moral standard for intervention should be a bit like that of a doctor's oath... "Don't cause more problems than you're trying to solve."
You say we should intervene in Ukraine? Okay, tell us how. Tell us what is hoped to be gained. Tell us the expected costs. Tell us the realistic case and worst case consequences. If the outlined plan doesn't make things worse, it's something I'm amenable to. If it's just "send over a bunch of our soldiers over to drag us all into WW3" then I suggest booking yourself a flight over there and volunteering for the front line first.
I agree with you. To put it coldly, it's a cost benefit analysis first. Will intervention result in more harm than benefit to the world is the first question. The second question is whether intervention is morally justified in itself. But if you're going to end up with WW3 out of it, then the first question says you don't militarily intervene even if it would be morally just to do so, and you find other ways to help short of military intervention.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 01:49:39 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
Did you watch the video? Ukranian soldiers waving nazi flags, school children having nazi theater plays, even NATO accidentally posted a picture of a stronk independent neo-nazi wahmen.
Going by population size one would expect to see way less neo-nazis in Ukraine then the US or Russia. And yet you have the Ukranian president honoring a neo-nazi as hero of the nation, and an army battallion made up off neo-nazis.
Once more, this doesn't mean Russia are the good guys, but it sure means neither is Ukraine.
The party which the neo-nazis contingent supports (which itself is far from all neo-nazi in support) got 2% of the vote in Ukraine during the last election, and have ONE small national guard military unit (which isn't all neo-nazi itself, that's just where most flocked). That percent of vote is less than they got in France and Germany, for comparison.
However, Russia's FSB has been using that less-than-2% and that one small military group and promoting it through propaganda to pretend it's representative of Ukraine and their military when it's not.
And here you are, passing on their propaganda like a good little Commie stooge.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 01:49:39 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
Did you watch the video? Ukranian soldiers waving nazi flags, school children having nazi theater plays, even NATO accidentally posted a picture of a stronk independent neo-nazi wahmen.
Going by population size one would expect to see way less neo-nazis in Ukraine then the US or Russia. And yet you have the Ukranian president honoring a neo-nazi as hero of the nation, and an army battallion made up off neo-nazis.
Once more, this doesn't mean Russia are the good guys, but it sure means neither is Ukraine.
Wasn't the Azov Battalion founded by a Jewish guy? Those are some damned weird neo-Nazis if that's the case.
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 01:12:25 PM
Id say they had more public prominence (for a while) then in Russia or United States. But does a bunch of neo-nazis larping in the forest justify shelling civilian sections?
If you didn't want to arm Ukraine there are much much much better reasons then 'A micro segment of the population are neo-nazis'.
Russia keeps a lid on such things because ultra-nationalists have their uses. There can be fine lines between ultra-nationalist and neo-nazis as well, and the latter referring to themselves as the former is one way to survive. Russian National Unity, a real Neo-Nazi group, is even active now in Donbas and directed there by Russia. It is a credit to local governments in Russia that the RNU is banned, but that hasn't stopped Putin from making use of them.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
Why is no one rounding up all the Antifa groups to send to the Ukraine to fight real Neo-Nazis?
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 02:42:21 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
I'm commenting on the habits of many posters to confuse the presentations of their entertainers with being credible sources. Then they try to deflect criticism with "just watch the video" and similar idiocy.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 02:42:21 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
I'm commenting on the habits of many posters to confuse the presentations of their entertainers with being credible sources. Then they try to deflect criticism with "just watch the video" and similar idiocy.
HappyDaze is not talking about
your favourite news source though.
They are actually credible sources.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 03:33:58 PM
Why is no one rounding up all the Antifa groups to send to the Ukraine to fight real Neo-Nazis?
Because they finally decided to take their "bash the fash" slogan seriously, and started hitting themselves.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 09, 2022, 11:03:54 PM
Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?
Because this is what following the ideal of "X could have been prevented sooner." really means:
Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".
But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao...
Quote from: Jaeger on March 09, 2022, 11:03:54 PM
And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the "Ethical" thing to do...
Making ourselves the World Police because: "Isolationism is unethical." Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.
The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been...
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.
In general, I agree with you about most of American interventionism. The U.S. has been very prone to war through most of its history, and I oppose that. I've been to anti-war protests for Iraq and Yemen in particular, and in general have been opposed to hawkish interventionism. However, it seems like you're implying that the Allies should not have gone to war against Hitler, and that it was bloodthirsty lunacy to do so.
First of all, going to war against Nazi Germany was not about stopping the Holocaust. It was because Nazi Germany had expanded its military to dominate and conquer country after country: Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc.
Opposing a military invasion that someone else started is not the same thing as starting war after war. Defensive war means that if someone else starts a war by invading another country, then other countries ally to stop it and restore the status quo. If invasions are allowed to continue without opposition, then every would-be conqueror is encouraged and we end up with more war, not less.
---
As another note - you talk about "Neocon Interventionism", and I'd like to clarify about terms. Wikipedia on neoconservatism says:
QuoteNeoconservatism is a political movement that was born in the United States during the 1960s among liberal hawks who became disenchanted with the increasingly pacifist foreign policy of the Democratic Party and with the growing New Left and counterculture of the 1960s, particularly the Vietnam protests. Some also began to question their liberal beliefs regarding domestic policies such as the Great Society. Neoconservatives typically advocate the promotion of democracy and interventionism in international affairs, including peace through strength, and are known for espousing disdain for communism and political radicalism.
Prominent neoconservatives in the George W. Bush administration included Paul Wolfowitz, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle and Paul Bremer. While not identifying as neoconservatives, senior officials Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld listened closely to neoconservative advisers regarding foreign policy, especially the defense of Israel and the promotion of American influence in the Middle East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism
So the neocons were liberals who jumped from the Democrats to Republicans in order to stay hawkish. But traditional conservatives like Nixon and Reagan have been just as hawkish as neocons. So I'd describe this as "American interventionism" - rather than associating it specifically with neocons.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 04:05:40 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 02:42:21 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
I'm commenting on the habits of many posters to confuse the presentations of their entertainers with being credible sources. Then they try to deflect criticism with "just watch the video" and similar idiocy.
HappyDaze is not talking about your favourite news source though.
They are actually credible sources.
If that news source is based on YouTube videos, then it's included.
To give nazis more context: nazis at first arrived in Ukraine as borderline liberators. After the near genocide by the hands of the mainly Russian USSR, the nazis where saviors by comparison. When their genocidal intent became more clear, the tune generally changed.
But Nazis have more mixed connotations in Ukraine then other Eastern Europe states for this reason.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 04:38:29 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 04:05:40 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 02:42:21 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
I'm commenting on the habits of many posters to confuse the presentations of their entertainers with being credible sources. Then they try to deflect criticism with "just watch the video" and similar idiocy.
HappyDaze is not talking about your favourite news source though.
They are actually credible sources.
If that news source is based on YouTube videos, then it's included.
But HappyDaze all news sources are on youtube except for Russia news.
On Wednesday, YouTube slapped an inappropriate content warning on Oliver Stone's Ukraine on Fire (2016) and age restricted it, which is effectively a soft ban. Apparently, they don't like something about it, perhaps the way it points out that the Ukrainian leadership may be puppets of Washington, or the coverage of the Nazis.
The publishers have uploaded it to Rumble, with no restrictions:
https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html
Was wondering when someone was going to mention the neo-nazi connections in the Ukraine military.
Personally, I have a wait and see attitude. It's a shame that Russia is attacking Ukraine, but I have no deep insights into the conflict, or the people involved. I'd prefer if the US stayed out of it, because meddling in foreign affairs is usually various levels of disaster. Sounds like we're most likely to doink around with sanctions, indirect military support, and explicit humanitarian aid. I guess that's fine, as long as people realize 15-30 years down the road, political pundits will likely point out how these were terrible decisions in hindsight.
Quote from: Pat on March 10, 2022, 01:35:51 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What's far fewer than "almost none"? A battalion?
I started to look around for actual numbers, and curiously, Aljazeera claims it is 10-20% (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment) of about 900.
My understanding is that, trying to break them up would just create a dangerous, illegal group needing watching, whereas being undergunned and facing the rebels in Donbas backed by Russia, they were put to work and encouraged to reduce the goose stepping. Given eight years has since gone by, 10-20% seems small.
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?
https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
Quote from: Pat on March 10, 2022, 08:43:03 PM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?
https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
I wonder who determines what is disinformation? Ned Price?
Let me put it on record that disinformation and censorship I stand against always. Ukraine doesn't need to be a 'Bastion of European Democracy' (instead of the 2nd world corruptionville it is) for the people dying there be worth protecting (or not) on their own merit.
Are there neo-nazis in Ukraine? Yes. Did putin send out an elite strike squad to eliminate them and only them? No. Will bombing civilians make the neo-Nazis go away? No.
The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 09:44:55 PM
The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.
I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody. The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 10:43:26 PMI dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody. The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.
Its escalating to that point. I don't see this invasion or the military tactics as coming from a guy who really thought this out. Russia has a history of going into 'Fuck it - Level the City' when it doesn't get what it wants.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 10:49:58 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 10:43:26 PMI dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody. The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.
Its escalating to that point. I don't see this invasion or the military tactics as coming from a guy who really thought this out. Russia has a history of going into 'Fuck it - Level the City' when it doesn't get what it wants.
Maybe bringing the West to its knees makes the invasion worthwhile.
Quote from: Pat on March 10, 2022, 08:43:03 PM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?
https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
https://search.brave.com/ (https://search.brave.com/)
They went to the effort of building their own search engine system rather than piggyback off Google's results like DuckDuckGo did.
Try a search there vs. Google/DDG and you'll see a notable difference in results on "controversial" topics.
The owner of Brave is also the guy who invented JavaScript and helped found Mozilla as an alternative to Explorer. He's been a long time advocate for internet privacy and his Brave browser even includes all sorts of built-in features for anonymity.
He's already been "canceled" by the Left (and his reaction to that was to build his own uncancellable system) so there's far less chance of him drinking the kool-aid to stay in their good graces.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2022, 08:23:32 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 10, 2022, 08:43:03 PM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?
https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
https://search.brave.com/ (https://search.brave.com/)
They went to the effort of building their own search engine system rather than piggyback off Google's results like DuckDuckGo did.
Try a search there vs. Google/DDG and you'll see a notable difference in results on "controversial" topics.
The owner of Brave is also the guy who invented JavaScript and helped found Mozilla as an alternative to Explorer. He's been a long time advocate for internet privacy and his Brave browser even includes all sorts of built-in features for anonymity.
He's already been "canceled" by the Left (and his reaction to that was to build his own uncancellable system) so there's far less chance of him drinking the kool-aid to stay in their good graces.
Good to know. I've switched my defaults.
Quote from: Pat on March 10, 2022, 08:43:03 PM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?
https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
Brave Search seems ok. There are others out there.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 10:49:58 PM
Its escalating to that point. I don't see this invasion or the military tactics as coming from a guy who really thought this out. Russia has a history of going into 'Fuck it - Level the City' when it doesn't get what it wants.
There are cities which have some strategic importance and they are either being captured or pummeled into dust with an emphasis on cowing the population. My direct contacts in Kherson (which was overrun and now controlled by Russian forces) have told me that while there was some initial damage, it is being used more as a clear path to reach other key cities.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2022, 08:23:32 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 10, 2022, 08:43:03 PM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?
https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
https://search.brave.com/ (https://search.brave.com/)
They went to the effort of building their own search engine system rather than piggyback off Google's results like DuckDuckGo did.
Try a search there vs. Google/DDG and you'll see a notable difference in results on "controversial" topics.
The owner of Brave is also the guy who invented JavaScript and helped found Mozilla as an alternative to Explorer. He's been a long time advocate for internet privacy and his Brave browser even includes all sorts of built-in features for anonymity.
He's already been "canceled" by the Left (and his reaction to that was to build his own uncancellable system) so there's far less chance of him drinking the kool-aid to stay in their good graces.
was he the guy who donated to the "wrong side of history" on that marriage referendum years ago? Where the "wrong" side won?
Quote from: oggsmash on March 11, 2022, 02:42:30 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2022, 08:23:32 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 10, 2022, 08:43:03 PM
Great. Even Duckduckgo is getting into the censorship game. Any good browsers left?
https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/139164/duckduckgo-to-down-rank-sites-associated-with-russian-disinformation
https://search.brave.com/ (https://search.brave.com/)
They went to the effort of building their own search engine system rather than piggyback off Google's results like DuckDuckGo did.
Try a search there vs. Google/DDG and you'll see a notable difference in results on "controversial" topics.
The owner of Brave is also the guy who invented JavaScript and helped found Mozilla as an alternative to Explorer. He's been a long time advocate for internet privacy and his Brave browser even includes all sorts of built-in features for anonymity.
He's already been "canceled" by the Left (and his reaction to that was to build his own uncancellable system) so there's far less chance of him drinking the kool-aid to stay in their good graces.
was he the guy who donated to the "wrong side of history" on that marriage referendum years ago? Where the "wrong" side won?
Yup. Brandon Eich. Wound up getting ejected from his own company for the high crime of... well... having a wrong opinion.
And yeah. That proposition passed, only to be overturned by a judge.
The facts indeed on communism and killing. My own post on these very issues at the place known as TBP got me permabanned.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 09, 2022, 11:03:54 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 09, 2022, 10:10:11 PM
...
Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."
It's a cowardly and lazy position.
LOL... Can you make it any more obvious that you didn't watch the video! The guy speaking is far from a fan of Putin.
And ROTFL at a few bad acts by all sides...
More disingenuous words of a warmongering shill that still thinks 'Team America World Police' is a good idea.
I'm applying the same standards to everyone involved.
You're the one spouting puerile nonsense like this:
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:08:54 PM
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
...
That is nothing less than a horrific emotionally driven appeal for perpetual war.
George Washington spoke with Great Wisdom:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
Quote...
Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.
Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality, we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.
Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice? ...
Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?
Because this is what following the ideal of "X could have been prevented sooner." really means:
Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".
But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao...
There was the Holodomor of 1932 to 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Where the Russian Commies committed mass genocide and killed around 3.5 million Ukrainians by starving them to death.
Then Stalin was all like: "Yes, not a bad start comrades, but I know that I can do better..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#:~:text=In%202011%2C%20after%20assessing%20twenty,policies%20are%20taken%20into%20account.
Soviet Gulags: 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.
The Soviet famine of 1932–1933: Add another 2-6 million dead on top of the Holodomor.
Judicial executions for political charges from 1929–53: According to official figures there were 777,975.
The Soviet famine of 1946–1947: An estimated 1 to 1.5 million lives lost.
Population transfer by the Soviet Union: The reported number of kulaks and their relatives who had died in labour colonies from 1932 to 1940 was 389,521.
According to Soviet archives, the heaviest mortality rate was documented in people from the Northern Caucasus (the Chechens, Ingush) with 144,704 deaths, or 24.7% of the entire deported population, as well as 44,125 deaths from Crimea, or a 19.3% mortality rate.
Katyn massacre: The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000.
Number of deaths of people by Stalinism, 1924–1953: Total estimated at somewhere around 7,231,000–9,551,000
Then Mao Zedong was all like: "Not bad for a bunch of round-eyed barbarians; here, hold my tea..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
From 1958 to 1962. Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes. Mao decreed that efforts to multiply grain yields and bring industry to the countryside should be increased. Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting non-existent "surpluses" and leaving farmers to starve.
Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million.
The Greatest Mass Murder in History
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/
Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge in Cambodia didn't want to be left behind, and they did the best that they could:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
By January 1979, 1.5 to 2 million people had died due to the Khmer Rouge's policies.
Then the Rwandan's had their day in the Sun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
The most widely accepted scholarly estimates are around 500,000 to 800,000 Tutsi deaths.
And the list goes on...
Just go HERE: Genocides in history (after World War II)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(after_World_War_II)
Funnily enough they don't list that one time starting in 2003 that the American Military killed 100 to 200,000 Iraqi civilians for no reason whatsoever.
Because: "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ!"
And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the "Ethical" thing to do...
Making ourselves the World Police because: "Isolationism is unethical." Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.
The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been...
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.
And Millions of innocent Ukrainian civilians are being fucked over because foreign nations on a power trip against each other can't keep it in their pants.
QuoteMy family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
This is certainly an argument for Russia to go in and clean out the Nazi problem in the Ukraine.
It would be unethical for Putin not to.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 11, 2022, 03:41:16 PM
QuoteMy family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
This is certainly an argument for Russia to go in and clean out the Nazi problem in the Ukraine.
It would be unethical for Putin not to.
Well, the fact checkers just said there is no flying Nazi with laser beam eyes problem in the Ukraine, so that exact statement you just said that I just copied with no alterations is wrong, making Putin objectively bad.
Quote from: Pat on March 11, 2022, 04:03:19 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 11, 2022, 03:41:16 PM
QuoteMy family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
This is certainly an argument for Russia to go in and clean out the Nazi problem in the Ukraine.
It would be unethical for Putin not to.
Well, the fact checkers just said there is no flying Nazi with laser beam eyes problem in the Ukraine, so that exact statement you just said that I just copied with no alterations is wrong, making Putin objectively bad.
Can Putin wait until the Ukrainian Bioweapon labs successfully mutate their Nazis?
Quote from: Shasarak on March 11, 2022, 04:08:23 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 11, 2022, 04:03:19 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 11, 2022, 03:41:16 PM
QuoteMy family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
This is certainly an argument for Russia to go in and clean out the Nazi problem in the Ukraine.
It would be unethical for Putin not to.
Well, the fact checkers just said there is no flying Nazi with laser beam eyes problem in the Ukraine, so that exact statement you just said that I just copied with no alterations is wrong, making Putin objectively bad.
Can Putin wait until the Ukrainian Bioweapon labs successfully mutate their Nazis?
The lab leak is a conspiracy theory!
Quote from: soundchaser on March 11, 2022, 03:14:45 PM
The facts indeed on communism and killing. My own post on these very issues at the place known as TBP got me permabanned.
...
But of course it did. It went against the narrative that there cannot be anything worse than a Nazi.
This is especially important when the ideological roots of your own worldview come from the same source as those that made Literally Hitler look like an enthusiastic amateur...
Quote from: Shasarak on March 11, 2022, 04:08:23 PM
...
Can Putin wait until the Ukrainian Bioweapon labs successfully mutate their Nazis?
Total Russian disinformation propaganda...
Their nazis are propoganda. Our nazis are real...
Quote from: jhkim on March 10, 2022, 04:19:49 PM
Opposing a military invasion that someone else started is not the same thing as starting war after war. Defensive war means that if someone else starts a war by invading another country, then other countries ally to stop it and restore the status quo. If invasions are allowed to continue without opposition, then every would-be conqueror is encouraged and we end up with more war, not less.
All things being equal, you are correct.
But,
in my opinion, the current mess in Ukraine is exactly that: One big mess.
The US has interfered grossly in the so-called Ukrainian democracy. Myself and others have posted links detailing US actions in the region. You don't have to take them at face value – by all means have your filters up. But at a minimum they show that the US has done its share of dirt in the Ukraine.
The Ukrainian government and oligarchs themselves are outrageously corrupt. And they have not been good actors in the Donbass region – their artillery shelling of civilians there on and off over the past eight years is a matter of video record.
Of course Russia has certainly had a hand in things as well. They helped to fund the Donbass militias. And it was their own pro-Russian puppet regime that the US helped overthrow and replace with our series of pro-west puppets.
And who knows what the fallout from their invasion will be years from now? If we get that far...
All these decades worth of shenanigans in the Ukraine from every player in this debacle begs the question: What does "restore the status quo" in Ukraine really mean?
The propaganda is flying so fast and furious from everyone, that I'm not sure anyone really knows.
And millions of innocent Ukrainian people are getting screwed while major world powers try to impose their will on the region in the most dangerous war in my lifetime.
Quote from: jhkim on March 10, 2022, 04:19:49 PM
So the neocons were liberals who jumped from the Democrats to Republicans in order to stay hawkish. But traditional conservatives like Nixon and Reagan have been just as hawkish as neocons. So I'd describe this as "American interventionism" - rather than associating it specifically with neocons.
That's a really good take. You're right: "American interventionism" is a much more accurate and correct way to phrase things than what I used.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:15:24 PM
You know how easy it is to show you're unethical? Because you cut the second part of what I said, intentionally, which talked about how it depends on the circumstances.
You certainly try to frame things your way, but this is another swing and a miss...
To Review:
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:08:54 PM
It depends on the circumstances, for any ethical being it depends on the circumstances. If it doesn't depend on the circumstances for you because you think there are no circumstances in which you'd help your neighbor in need when you have the means to do so, then you're unethical.
You Said:
"It depends on the circumstances."I didn't feel the need to quote it as you gave an example of an acceptable circumstance for intervention in the first paragraph of your post when you said:
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 11:08:54 PM
My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
You had clearly established one circumstance where earlier Foreign Intervention would have been "ethical". And where isolationism was clearly "unethical".
The "ethical" circumstance for intervention given was: Bad person, i.e. Literally Hitler, commits genocide on innocent civilians.
I am not the only poster here to make that perfectly reasonable deduction from what you wrote.
I didn't spin anything. You gave a clear example of a situation where Military Interventionism would have been "ethical".
I then highlighted several instances in history where that specific criterion directly applied.
And noted that using that specific criterion to "ethically" intervene would have doomed any nation doing so to perpetual war.
i.e. It would have been "ethical" for us to have intervened against Stalin and Mao who killed far more people than Literally Hitler.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 10, 2022, 01:15:24 PM
The only reason to do that is because you wanted to spin what I was saying as me being pro-war and pro-intervention all the time. As opposed to what I actually said which was a blanket isolationism which doesn't ever ask if this is the exceptional circumstance where we should make the very rare decision to intervene is what I consider unethical.
You're a fraud Jaeger. A liar, and a fraud. This is your M.O. though. You take a position, and then if someone dares refute it, you take what they said back out of context and lie about it to make yourself feel better about your position. It's not genuine. You're not some internet badass. You're just a cowardly fraud.
Sorry, but I've seen the
"accuse others of that which you are guilty of" tactic before. *Yawn*...
So I'm just gonna take this as a solid confirmation that you didn't watch the video I posted at all.
Playing the victim doesn't work too well when you start off like this:
Quote from: Mistwell on March 04, 2022, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 03, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 03, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
...
They also can't understand that you can be sympathetic to the plight of Ukie civilians without wanting to get into another 20-year war. It doesn't help that Westerners don't understand the Slavic mindset - regardless of benign-ness of NATO membership, to Putin and Lukashenko, they see themselves surrounded by NATO.
This is big.
The situation sucks for the Ukrainian people.
But it's just not our business.
Oh here comes that old isolationism mantra. Just as unethical as it was in 1939.
....
You didn't ask for any underlying reasoning for my position in this situation. You just jumped straight to saying that I was spouting an unethical isolationist mantra.
And then you go on to act shocked! Shocked I say! And try to play the "misquoted" victim when people dish it back just as hard as you dished it out, using perfectly reasonable quotations from posts that you wrote.
You've been straight up busted, and called out on your routine on here so many times, that I am far from the only one in this thread to have used the words Mistwell, Disingenuous, and Liar/Lie/Lies, in the same sentence.
Other posters here have busted you doing the same routine as well in more than one thread.
Your shrill protestations of victimhood are falling on deaf ears.
Nobody believes you.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 11, 2022, 06:51:46 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 11, 2022, 04:08:23 PM
...
Can Putin wait until the Ukrainian Bioweapon labs successfully mutate their Nazis?
Total Russian disinformation propaganda...
You cant trust Fox news Youtube channel about the secret Ukraine mutant Nazi research labs.
Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNkhQ65WQAAIPTX?format=jpg&name=small)
Quote from: Shasarak on March 12, 2022, 12:55:10 AM
Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNkhQ65WQAAIPTX?format=jpg&name=small)
Just when I think that humanity can't get any dumber......
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 07:16:36 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 12, 2022, 12:55:10 AM
Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNkhQ65WQAAIPTX?format=jpg&name=small)
Just when I think that humanity can't get any dumber......
Western society is doomed. Might as well kill everyone under age 50 and start over rather than progress to the point that the movie Idiocracy can be considered a documentary...
Quote from: 3catcircus on March 12, 2022, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 12, 2022, 07:16:36 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 12, 2022, 12:55:10 AM
Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNkhQ65WQAAIPTX?format=jpg&name=small)
Just when I think that humanity can't get any dumber......
Western society is doomed. Might as well kill everyone under age 50 and start over rather than progress to the point that the movie Idiocracy can be considered a documentary...
To be fair, it's not like everyone under 50 is addicted to this idiocy.
My godkids and honorary nieces/nephews have been kept away from that crap (Home schooling is a beautiful thing). The oldest of them finished all their course work for High School by 16, went to trade school and was already professionally employed in their trade, making good money and owned their own car on their 18th birthday a few months back. The next youngest is en route for the same course. They are, as they say, Based.
Based on what I've seen of the actual numbers the idiocy is coming from the noisiest 10% or less of the population... the same as it's been throughout history. BigTech just magnifies it to make it look like 50, 75 or even 95% of the population.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 11, 2022, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 10, 2022, 04:19:49 PM
Opposing a military invasion that someone else started is not the same thing as starting war after war. Defensive war means that if someone else starts a war by invading another country, then other countries ally to stop it and restore the status quo. If invasions are allowed to continue without opposition, then every would-be conqueror is encouraged and we end up with more war, not less.
All things being equal, you are correct.
But, in my opinion, the current mess in Ukraine is exactly that: One big mess.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 11, 2022, 07:43:32 PM
All these decades worth of shenanigans in the Ukraine from every player in this debacle begs the question: What does "restore the status quo" in Ukraine really mean?
I don't disagree that it's a mess, but
every war is a big mess. That was true of WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Afghanistan, etc. For example, the U.S. did a ton of shit in Hawaii prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. But there are still principles that apply. If principles are going to matter at all, then they have to matter in messy real-world cases.
In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 11, 2022, 07:43:32 PM
And millions of innocent Ukrainian people are getting screwed while major world powers try to impose their will on the region in the most dangerous war in my lifetime.
I agree that it sucks for the Ukrainians. So what do you suggest is best to do for the Ukrainians right now? I had previously suggested donating to the charity, United Help Ukraine - which is the highest rating in Charity Navigator, has an established reputation, and has transparency about where their money goes.
https://unitedhelpukraine.org/
My church is also encouraging donations to the Hungarian Unitarian church which is working to help refugees, but that's Unitarian specific, so I'm not necessarily suggesting that for others.
Beyond individual charities, I dislike token moves that are just for show - but I think economic sanctions that actually have an effect are good - both for Ukrainians and for world peace. Letting invasions succeed and thrive is just asking for more trouble in the future. It is like paying off terrorist demands, which encourages more terrorism.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 10:43:26 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 09:44:55 PM
The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.
I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody. The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.
Just as an observation, I could not help but notice that Russia started shelling civilian areas hard
after many media stories and videos talking about Ukraine arming civilians with guns and Molotov cocktails.
One of the "laws" of war (if there are any) is that combatants are required to distinguish themselves from
non-combatants in order to prevent attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure.
If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?
Quote from: DocJones on March 12, 2022, 05:35:24 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 10:43:26 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 09:44:55 PM
The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.
I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody. The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.
Just as an observation, I could not help but notice that Russia started shelling civilian areas hard
after many media stories and videos talking about Ukraine arming civilians with guns and Molotov cocktails.
One of the "laws" of war (if there are any) is that combatants are required to distinguish themselves from
non-combatants in order to prevent attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure.
If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?
Yeah this is going to be a case where propaganda bites them in the ass. Best results are a quick surrender and capitulate to best terms he can get so Zelensky can get back to taking and passing out bags of money for the money laundering center of the West. Fighting "to the death" is going to end badly for many, many, many more Ukrainians. This squabble likely has hurt Putin no matter what, even if he gets the no NATO agreements he wants. NATO and the west can get back to going back on their word later on, maybe after Putin leaves or dies.
Quote from: DocJones on March 12, 2022, 05:35:24 PMIf Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?
Thats such an unbelievably stupid argument. Ukraine is a country of 44 Million people and 25-50 thousand where given weapons (with no evidence of mass participation in warfare).
If you believe that Russia only started harming civilians once they started attacking them on mass then I have a deed for the state of New York id like to sell you.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 05:50:02 PMBest results are a quick surrender and capitulate.
Good to see we have a precognicant psychic on our hands. Why doesn't just everybody just capitulate to threats and violence. Im under no delusion of Ukraines chances, and Zelenksy is a piece of shit, but that doesn't make every cause in the world not worth fighting for.
Conquest/war is the biggest social uniter in Russia (except maybe alchoholism). Russians as a whole can wether a whole lot of bullshit if they can get the glory of conquest. Even if it means conquering an ashpit by people that will fight your occupation.
The easier this happens, the more encouraged they will be to do it again. Putin will never leave until he is killed, and his successor will have no motivation not to do this again.
The national zeal in Russia, is that Ukraine/ex-imperial states just 'belong' to Russia, and their succession is just an aberration.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 06:13:21 PM
Quote from: DocJones on March 12, 2022, 05:35:24 PMIf Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?
Thats such an unbelievably stupid argument. Ukraine is a country of 44 Million people and 25-50 thousand where given weapons (with no evidence of mass participation in warfare).
If you believe that Russia only started harming civilians once they started attacking them on mass then I have a deed for the state of New York id like to sell you.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 05:50:02 PMBest results are a quick surrender and capitulate.
Good to see we have a precognicant psychic on our hands. Why doesn't any anybody just capitulate to threats and violence. Im under no delusion of Ukraines chances, and Zelenksy is a piece of shit, but that doesn't make every cause in the world not worth fighting for.
Conquest/war is the biggest social uniter in Russia (except maybe alchoholism). Russians as a whole can wether a whole lot of bullshit if they can get the glory of conquest. Even if it means conquering an ashpit by people that will fight your occupation.
The easier this happens, the more encouraged they will be to do it again. Putin will never leave until he is killed, and his successor will have no motivation not to do this again.
The national zeal in Russia, is that Ukraine/ex-imperial states just 'belong' to Russia, and their succession is just an aberration.
I did a math problem. Not a future reading problem. Fighting, in real war conditions does kill people, and in brutal fashion. If Putin continues to escalate, all the pictures people can post with granny holding a gun is only going to get people killed. I am not saying Ukrainians should not fight, I just said where the math works out best for them. It is not as if Ukraine was hitting on all cylinders economically before this. But if you think they are better off fighting to the end, so be it.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:16:55 PMIf Putin continues to escalate, all the pictures people can post with granny holding a gun is only going to get people killed.
As evidenced by? Russia has its own internal propaganda arm. Thats like saying all these people stepping on cracks is going to get people killed.
Fighting back is whats going to get people killed. Or being in the way is going to get people killed.
There are absolutely no white hats in this scenario, but the devil needs no advocate when he has the superior military force.
Like anything else, its easy to give comments about a situation when it doesn't affect you. I never truly cared about wars until this one.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:16:55 PMIt is not as if Ukraine was hitting on all cylinders economically before this.
.....What does that have to do with anything? If your poor - don't protect your home? Just let them take what they want?
It does affect me, it affects the whole world. I never said russia isnt churning propaganda like crazy. So your position is what then? Fight it out to the end? OR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live?
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:24:52 PMIt does affect me, it affects the whole world.
Oh your the omniscence spirit of the world. Now I understand.
QuoteOR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live?
So is that your position on anything that involves threats of violence?
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:24:52 PMSo your position is what then?
I don't know. Both will suck. Russia will probably win eventually either way, but neither situation is good at all. Living in fear is a toxic way to live. If Russia wins, it will demand complete disarment, meaning it can just keep doing this if it wants, because to them it would be a big morale booster.
I think we can all agree that banning Russian streamers from Twitch and OnlyFans is the best way to end the war.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 06:29:03 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:24:52 PMIt does affect me, it affects the whole world.
Oh your the omniscence spirit of the world. Now I understand.
QuoteOR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live?
So is that your position on anything that involves threats of violence?
Nope. I enjoy violence on a personal level. I have spent a lifetime trying to temper that into a few activities that would keep me out of prison. I also know that most people just do not have it in them, and lots and lots of people are going to die if they keep going. How many lives is it worth for Zelensky to hold out and never make an agreement around NATO?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 06:29:03 PM
I don't know. Both will suck. Russia will probably win eventually either way, but neither situation is good at all. Living in fear is a toxic way to live. If Russia wins, it will demand complete disarment, meaning it can just keep doing this if it wants, because to them it would be a big morale booster.
That is a fair assessment, and one I agree with 100 percent. I only made a calculation on loss of life, not what happens after.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 06:29:03 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:24:52 PMIt does affect me, it affects the whole world.
Oh your the omniscence spirit of the world. Now I understand.
QuoteOR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live?
So is that your position on anything that involves threats of violence?
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:24:52 PMSo your position is what then?
I don't know. Both will suck. Russia will probably win eventually either way, but neither situation is good at all. Living in fear is a toxic way to live. If Russia wins, it will demand complete disarment, meaning it can just keep doing this if it wants, because to them it would be a big morale booster.
If Russia wins that completely, the West will lose all credibility. They put way too much prestige at stake.
That will not be good for the future of Taiwan, or more generally the West Pacific.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:35:56 PMThat is a fair assessment, and one I agree with 100 percent. I only made a calculation on loss of life, not what happens after.
Many things might cost lives. I don't believe Ukraine should keep fighting until its glassed, but if it just costs too little it will show Putin others are bluffing. What if he invades Poland and says 'If Nato Intervens Il throw a fit like I did with Ukraine'?
The history of Russia is the history of conquest. Unlike for the rest of europe, WWII was seen as a big win for Russia (despite the staggering loss of life). The loss of life and its cost has faded over time and a zingoistic zeal to 'liberate our Russian comrades' has been papered over it.
Russia is a mystery (even to the people living there). Why everybody is so purpetually unhappy is always on everyones minds.
Quote from: DocJones on March 12, 2022, 05:35:24 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 10, 2022, 10:43:26 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 10, 2022, 09:44:55 PM
The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.
I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody. The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.
Just as an observation, I could not help but notice that Russia started shelling civilian areas hard
after many media stories and videos talking about Ukraine arming civilians with guns and Molotov cocktails.
One of the "laws" of war (if there are any) is that combatants are required to distinguish themselves from
non-combatants in order to prevent attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure.
If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?
Is it just me or does it seem that the US is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?
Quote from: Shasarak on March 12, 2022, 07:07:33 PM
Is it just me or does it seem that the US is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?
I think the US is willing to let Ukrainians fight as long as they have the will to fight. A great many haven't lost that will. There's a significant amount of anger that's built up over the last eight years and the well televised present that they can see. I am not sure about Kharkiv, but most other cities still have at least internet access.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:03:34 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 06:35:56 PMThat is a fair assessment, and one I agree with 100 percent. I only made a calculation on loss of life, not what happens after.
Many things might cost lives. I don't believe Ukraine should keep fighting until its glassed, but if it just costs too little it will show Putin others are bluffing. What if he invades Poland and says 'If Nato Intervens Il throw a fit like I did with Ukraine'?
The history of Russia is the history of conquest. Unlike for the rest of europe, WWII was seen as a big win for Russia (despite the staggering loss of life). The loss of life and its cost has faded over time and a zingoistic zeal to 'liberate our Russian comrades' has been papered over it.
Russia is a mystery (even to the people living there). Why everybody is so purpetually unhappy is always on everyones minds.
Well, because of paperwork I guess if they do that it is WW3 anyway. You are right many things might cost lives, but a 5.45x39 or a 7.62x39 does tend to expedite when and how much the cost ends up being. Maybe it is best to go ahead and take a chance and take military action (NATO) now even if it is going to happen later any way. That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make. I suppose I can hope the USA has some cutting edge tech that can neutralize nukes and the threat of same.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PMThat is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.
I don't know. Putin is operating under delusional logic, similar to USA but still different. The USA thought it could bribe other nations into being democratic (after bombing them). Russia thinks it can get its empire back together (with a shrinking population), except it has no funds to do so, the warfare is too destructive/expensive and information too easily spread for people to like an occupation. Its just military inertia.
While this will get Putin another 10 years in office, it comes at the expense of utterly destabilizing the country.
Edit: Despite what Metal Gear Solid 4 thinks, you cannot have a military economy in the modern age. Most of a countries cash nowadays depends on its infrastructure, and modern warfare is massively destructive to said infrastructure.
OK now Putins plan is becoming clearer. Now that he has taken over Kherson, he wants to fracture it like Donetsk. Putin wants to fracture the country into chunks and only control the areas he cares about. But unlike Donetsk, no major region wants to become independant all that much.
This would reduce the cost of occupation, and is really fucking evil. He effectively wants to own all the chunks that provide Ukraine any value and then let the rest rot.
My Russian friend, talking to his friends still in Russia, just made a point I hadn't considered before.
China invades Siberia with the intent of taking it (a territory they've wanted in the past).
Who stops them?
Not Russia. Their military is busy on the other side.
Not any of the forces that normally would have done something about it. They're all pissed at Russia at the moment.
Who does anything about it?
But does anybody really want Siberia? Here in Canada, we lay claim to a lot of territory that nobody in their right mind would want to contest and so we get to keep it. I have recently suggested that we just let the entire population of Ukraine immigrate to northern Saskatchewan. It would nicely swing the center of voting power to the west :D
Quote from: Mistwell on March 12, 2022, 10:40:56 PM
My Russian friend, talking to his friends still in Russia, just made a point I hadn't considered before.
China invades Siberia with the intent of taking it (a territory they've wanted in the past).
Who stops them?
Not Russia. Their military is busy on the other side.
Not any of the forces that normally would have done something about it. They're all pissed at Russia at the moment.
Who does anything about it?
I posted earlier about the Primorsky Krai. Unlike the rest of Siberia, it has a real and concrete strategic value: It would give China direct access to the Sea of Japan, which they really, really want. And it would also cripple Russia, who would lose access to the Pacific. In addition, it fits in with the "part of China since ancient times" narrative the CCP adores, because until the late 19th century it was part of Outer Manchuria. The natives aren't Han, but they're formerly Chinese.
Though I don't see it as likely, unless Russia is humiliated and crippled. The Chinese-Russia friendship is a only matter of convenience and common enemies, but they're not going to turn on each other without a serious show of weakness. Plus, dealing with Vladivostok would be tough, because it has somewhat less than a million Russians.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PMThat is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.
I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
I want a world without war, but I don't think that pure pacifism is a good route to that. I think it is often appropriate to fight back.
I think the Ukrainian soldiers and civilians who are fighting back against the Russians aren't doing so because the West is telling them to. They are doing so because they believe their freedom from Russian conquest is something worth fighting for in itself. I don't think that is stupidity or blindness, and I'm not going to call them fools or puppets for doing so.
Quote from: jhkim on March 13, 2022, 01:42:06 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PMThat is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.
I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 04:03:29 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 13, 2022, 01:42:06 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PMThat is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.
I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?
Maybe he is an Oughtist?
Quote from: Shasarak on March 13, 2022, 04:58:19 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 04:03:29 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 13, 2022, 01:42:06 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PMThat is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.
I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?
Maybe he is an Oughtist?
Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 13, 2022, 05:17:18 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 13, 2022, 04:58:19 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 04:03:29 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 13, 2022, 01:42:06 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PMThat is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.
I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?
Maybe he is an Oughtist?
Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?
No?
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 13, 2022, 05:17:18 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 13, 2022, 04:58:19 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 04:03:29 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 13, 2022, 01:42:06 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PMThat is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.
I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?
Maybe he is an Oughtist?
Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Not that I'm aware of. My own position is that war is evil, but sometimes it's the lesser evil and there are no other good options.
Worse, what might have looked like good options at the time could turn out to be bad options; Putin claimed it was Ukraine refusing to abide by a treaty as one of his reasons for war and it looks like the Ukrainian government wasn't actually abiding by it. So perhaps war would have been avoided if they had followed it, but part of that treaty was about disarmament and if Putin was always going to invade he would have just made a different excuse and the Ukraine would have had even fewer options for defending itself.
We don't know and can't know what could have been if people had made different choices. We just have to deal with the situation we have now.
Quote from: David Johansen on March 13, 2022, 12:01:40 AM
But does anybody really want Siberia? Here in Canada, we lay claim to a lot of territory that nobody in their right mind would want to contest and so we get to keep it. I have recently suggested that we just let the entire population of Ukraine immigrate to northern Saskatchewan. It would nicely swing the center of voting power to the west :D
Yes, China REALLY wants Siberia. They used to own it. The people who currently live there have many ties to China. The population on the China border with Russia is roughly 10 times the population on the Russian border side. China needs room, and that's the room they've often wanted.
The NYT (not a great source) was writing about how China will eventually retake Siberia back in 2014/2015 (https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/07/03/where-do-borders-need-to-be-redrawn/why-china-will-reclaim-siberia).
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/07/04/opinion/map/map-articleLarge.png)
Quote from: Mistwell on March 13, 2022, 10:50:23 AM
Quote from: David Johansen on March 13, 2022, 12:01:40 AM
But does anybody really want Siberia? Here in Canada, we lay claim to a lot of territory that nobody in their right mind would want to contest and so we get to keep it. I have recently suggested that we just let the entire population of Ukraine immigrate to northern Saskatchewan. It would nicely swing the center of voting power to the west :D
Yes, China REALLY wants Siberia. They used to own it. The people who currently live there have many ties to China. The population on the China border with Russia is roughly 10 times the population on the Russian border side. China needs room, and that's the room they've often wanted.
The NYT (not a great source) was writing about how China will eventually retake Siberia back in 2014/2015 (https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/07/03/where-do-borders-need-to-be-redrawn/why-china-will-reclaim-siberia).
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/07/04/opinion/map/map-articleLarge.png)
Siberia is often wrongly considered a snowy wasteland. This is false. Vladivostok is along the same latitude as Portland. There are rich farmlands waiting for farmers to develop them. Mountains with lakes and rich pastures that would make Montana look like a desert. And then oil, gas, metals, lumber, etc. Siberia is a rich land waiting to be developed, and for many different reasons the Russians have been unable to accomplish what the USA did in North America during the 19th Century. Currently most of the Russian people reside within 100 miles of the Moscow -- St Petersburg axis. No matter what incentives are offered by the Russian government, no matter how impoverished the Russians living there may be, most Russians will not leave that area and head East. As such the Chinese are taking over Siberia with illegal immigrants, and there is not much that the Russians can do about it.
The real question is going to be whether or not Russia is able to integrate those Chinese into Russian culture, or will they eventually turn Siberia into China?
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.
Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.
But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."
NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about
Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 02:44:36 PM
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.
Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.
But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."
NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about
Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Nervous/stress laughter is a thing. Buddy of mine was a combat medic, and when we had medical emergencies (including a patient that had a wound closure open and abdominal evisceration post surgery) he would giggle like a little girl even while his hands were steady and mind was sharp.
We can only hope our VP is the same, but I doubt it.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 13, 2022, 11:34:46 AM
Siberia is often wrongly considered a snowy wasteland. This is false. Vladivostok is along the same latitude as Portland.
While you are right that the geography isn't something you can assume, you've chosen a poor example. Vladivostok gets mostly sub-Arctic weather which is much harsher than Portland. When you have a really cold airstream coming off quite cold lands, you can get loads of snow all winter. If you go up north in the province there and look out on the ocean, you can get free floating ice in the winter as well.
QuoteThe real question is going to be whether or not Russia is able to integrate those Chinese into Russian culture, or will they eventually turn Siberia into China?
New culture can arise. Depends how Chinese migrants, often founding families with Chinese women will want to proceed.
Quotees, China REALLY wants Siberia. They used to own it
No, not really. For most of history Chinese states covered just about half of less of modern China (Easternmost part usually), slowly stretching to modern size. One piece they really lost was Mongolia, they hold for several centuries. The only serious claim for just a piece of Siberia - very small compared to modern Russian Siberia was during Yuan dynasty - ergo Mongol dynasty, they finally toppled over for being Mongols - and then it was remainder of Mongol conquests, not Chinese ones, and they lost it, when they removed Mongols.
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 06:09:39 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 13, 2022, 05:17:18 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 13, 2022, 04:58:19 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 04:03:29 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 13, 2022, 01:42:06 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PMThat is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.
I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?
Maybe he is an Oughtist?
Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?
No?
Apparently not. I didn't find anything in jhkim's post that was unrealistically idealist or patronizing.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 02:13:50 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 06:09:39 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 13, 2022, 05:17:18 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 13, 2022, 04:58:19 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 04:03:29 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 13, 2022, 01:42:06 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PMThat is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.
I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?
Maybe he is an Oughtist?
Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?
No?
Apparently not. I didn't find anything in jhkim's post that was unrealistically idealist or patronizing.
War is super cool and fun when you can sit back and sell weapons to other people.
Personally I am surprised that there has not been shipments of go pros sent out with each case of weapons.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2022, 02:13:50 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 06:09:39 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 13, 2022, 05:17:18 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 13, 2022, 04:58:19 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 04:03:29 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 13, 2022, 01:42:06 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 12, 2022, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 12, 2022, 07:16:53 PMThat is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.
I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?
Maybe he is an Oughtist?
Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?
No?
Apparently not. I didn't find anything in jhkim's post that was unrealistically idealist or patronizing.
I wasn't referring to Kim's post, I was referring to yours. Which should be obvious, because I mimicked the structure and phrasing you used.
Though looking at it again, I might have misinterpreted your tone.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 02:31:12 AM
War is super cool and fun when you can sit back and sell weapons to other people.
Personally I am surprised that there has not been shipments of go pros sent out with each case of weapons.
Can we livestream an entire country on TikTok? They should make that a thing. We could log in, zoom in, find a resistance cell, and demand they twerk for our amusement.
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 02:44:36 PM
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.
Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.
But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."
NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about
Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Did you expect a demented old hair-sniffer and an actual whore to do their homework and at least sound intelligent?
Regarding China and 'what does Russia do if China starts biting off chunks of Siberia?', first off China's actually heavily invested into Africa at the moment. Can't see them opening up another front just yet.
Second, that strikes me as a great way to push Putin to start playing with his nuclear toys. The dark irony of WW3 being confined to a Russia-China nuke exchange would probably make me laugh, if I didn't know the repercussions would be an absolute disaster.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 14, 2022, 08:18:56 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 02:44:36 PM
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.
Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.
But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."
NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about
Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Did you expect a demented old hair-sniffer and an actual whore to do their homework and at least sound intelligent?
Y'know. I have been thinking about Regan a lot. Biden is way more gone mentally than Regan ever was, or was even portrayed to be. And this guy is in the position of setting foreign policy, and has his metaphorical finger on the nuclear button.
Quote from: Lynn on March 13, 2022, 08:32:05 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 13, 2022, 11:34:46 AM
Siberia is often wrongly considered a snowy wasteland. This is false. Vladivostok is along the same latitude as Portland.
While you are right that the geography isn't something you can assume, you've chosen a poor example. Vladivostok gets mostly sub-Arctic weather which is much harsher than Portland. When you have a really cold airstream coming off quite cold lands, you can get loads of snow all winter. If you go up north in the province there and look out on the ocean, you can get free floating ice in the winter as well.
But its not Arctic Tundra like people believe. Everything you said about Vladivostok can be said about Boston -- it has more to do with ocean currents than latitude. And the weather in the Northern MidWest of the USA is even harsher during winter. The point is not that Siberia is a sub-tropical paradise with beaches like Mexico, only that it is not a winter wasteland like many believe. It is has been waiting for development, the Russian government has been struggling to get Russians to go and develop it, and so far progress has been slow.
If Russia cannot get Russians to 'Go East Young Man!' and they don't open up the region to legal immigrants from all around the world, then they are going to get stuck with millions of illegal immigrants from China. Which may not be such a bad thing if Russia can assimilate them. That was my point.
After watching clips from viral videos of Chinese school children aggressively chanting a list of weapons the Ukraine inherited from the Soviet Union, I think Vladivostok is safe, at least for the near future.
Internationally, China is being somewhat moderate. But on their home turf, the propaganda machine is pushing very hard that Ukraine's at fault for not being self-reliant, and embracing the West. "Big Brother Russia needs to bring Younger Brother Ukraine back home. Younger brother, if you make an error on our principles, I will beat you up! But America has always been in the back playing dirty tricks!" Sounds like a prelude to an invasion of Taiwan, doesn't it?
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 11:04:52 AM
But its not Arctic Tundra like people believe. Everything you said about Vladivostok can be said about Boston -- it has more to do with ocean currents than latitude. And the weather in the Northern MidWest of the USA is even harsher during winter. The point is not that Siberia is a sub-tropical paradise with beaches like Mexico, only that it is not a winter wasteland like many believe. It is has been waiting for development, the Russian government has been struggling to get Russians to go and develop it, and so far progress has been slow.
If Russia cannot get Russians to 'Go East Young Man!' and they don't open up the region to legal immigrants from all around the world, then they are going to get stuck with millions of illegal immigrants from China. Which may not be such a bad thing if Russia can assimilate them. That was my point.
I think people's expectations are set by the imagination and the chilly Russian gulag. It isn't straight up frosty tundra that never seem to thaw out, but its going to be freaking cold much of the year, and really snowy in the winter time. The summers though aren't going to be bad, more like it is in the 'upper' Pacific Northwest and the San Juans (lower Alaska). I spend several years in Hokkaido. Traveling north the distance of the island can take you from freezing to that free floating ice problem through winter and early spring, just like in the region of Vladivostok. Then it gets worse in the Kurils. There used to be quite a big black market trade in used Japanese cars being shipped over to Vladivostok that made some port cities in Hokkaido a bit more...interesting.
The problem though isn't 2-3 weeks of heavy snow and icy streets, but months of both. That puts off even Russians.
Quote from: Lynn on March 14, 2022, 12:29:29 PM
The problem though isn't 2-3 weeks of heavy snow and icy streets, but months of both. That puts off even Russians.
These are Russians, not guys and gals from San Diego. Moscow and St Petersburg are not exactly sunny and warm either. In fact the southern most parts of Siberia are much more pleasant than northern European Russia. I think it is less about weather and more about a cultural lethargy. The 20th Century was not kind to Russia or Russians. I don't think they have psychologically recovered from WW II let alone the damage done by the Soviet Union. Its just damned hard to get them to leave the Russian 'homeland' around the Moscow-St Petersburg axis.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 12:38:06 PM
These are Russians, not guys and gals from San Diego. Moscow and St Petersburg are not exactly sunny and warm either. In fact the southern most parts of Siberia are much more pleasant than northern European Russia. I think it is less about weather and more about a cultural lethargy. The 20th Century was not kind to Russia or Russians. I don't think they have psychologically recovered from WW II let alone the damage done by the Soviet Union. Its just damned hard to get them to leave the Russian 'homeland' around the Moscow-St Petersburg axis.
Moscow and St Petersburg though aren't as harsh as Siberia, and young Russians aren't their grandparents. They don't necessarily want to live in towns that have been dying since the the Soviet days.
Moscow and St Petersburg are 'culture' cities in Russia and, even if they are really expensive to live in, they offer a lot of opportunity if you have connections. Likewise and back to the topic, there are plenty of not only ethnic Russians but Russian citizens that live in Ukraine for one reason or the other. Some of the cities are quite nice. Most younger urban Ukrainians look at those Baltic countries that have joined the EU and see a life that they want. If you get the right degree and training, you can also earn enough to live pretty well. The cost of living has gone up but it is nothing like those big Russian cities.
Quote from: Lynn on March 14, 2022, 12:52:27 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 12:38:06 PM
These are Russians, not guys and gals from San Diego. Moscow and St Petersburg are not exactly sunny and warm either. In fact the southern most parts of Siberia are much more pleasant than northern European Russia. I think it is less about weather and more about a cultural lethargy. The 20th Century was not kind to Russia or Russians. I don't think they have psychologically recovered from WW II let alone the damage done by the Soviet Union. Its just damned hard to get them to leave the Russian 'homeland' around the Moscow-St Petersburg axis.
Moscow and St Petersburg though aren't as harsh as Siberia, and young Russians aren't their grandparents. They don't necessarily want to live in towns that have been dying since the the Soviet days.
Moscow and St Petersburg are 'culture' cities in Russia and, even if they are really expensive to live in, they offer a lot of opportunity if you have connections. Likewise and back to the topic, there are plenty of not only ethnic Russians but Russian citizens that live in Ukraine for one reason or the other. Some of the cities are quite nice. Most younger urban Ukrainians look at those Baltic countries that have joined the EU and see a life that they want. If you get the right degree and training, you can also earn enough to live pretty well. The cost of living has gone up but it is nothing like those big Russian cities.
And you keep saying the same thing. And its wrong. Moscow and St Petersburg are brutally cold, and the areas in the southern Siberia are much better weatherwise.
As for Ukraine, I couldn't care less. They are the very opposite of a 'shining example of a growing democracy'. They have mismanaged their country horribly electing or selecting one corrupt government after another. They have a bad history of oppressing ethnic minorities. But ultimately they have shown themselves to be utter fools when acting as a group making one unwise decision after another and then blaming everyone else but themselves. Not admirable at all. Of course you can say the same thing about the USSA. Why I live in Mexico.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 12:38:06 PMI don't think they have psychologically recovered from WW II let alone the damage done by the Soviet Union.
The reason why russia is so psychologically damaged is a mystery to this day. A guess is that Russias cultural ancestor are the monguls instead of the romans. The damage existed far before WWII. Which if anything exists as somewhat of a element of unifying pride.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 01:04:45 PMAs for Ukraine, I couldn't care less. They are the very opposite of a 'shining example of a growing democracy'. They have mismanaged their country horribly electing or selecting one corrupt government after another. They have a bad history of oppressing ethnic minorities. But ultimately they have shown themselves to be utter fools when acting as a group making one unwise decision after another and then blaming everyone else but themselves. Not admirable at all. Of course you can say the same thing about the USSA. Why I live in Mexico.
...Is that meant as kind of a joke on the nature of corruption in every nation?
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 14, 2022, 08:18:56 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 13, 2022, 02:44:36 PM
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.
Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.
But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."
NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about
Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Did you expect a demented old hair-sniffer and an actual whore to do their homework and at least sound intelligent?
Just a point of order, what do you have against actual whores and why would an actual whore not at least sound intelligent as much as any non-whore? Particularly in this case (though I do not agree she is a whore, I am going with your line of thinking on this) at least a world's top 10 most noteworthy successful whore? I mean we're talking a person who, in your world view, whored her way all the way to the vice presidency of the United States, and you think that's a sign of her lack of intelligence?
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 01:04:45 PM
And you keep saying the same thing. And its wrong. Moscow and St Petersburg are brutally cold, and the areas in the southern Siberia are much better weatherwise.
Except I am not. I didn't say Moscow and St Petersburg aren't cold, but they aren't sub-arctic. There's a difference. Also, that's where any real investment and innovation happens. You don't see a lot of young people wanting to go to Vladivostok for university, do you?
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 01:04:45 PM
As for Ukraine, I couldn't care less. They are the very opposite of a 'shining example of a growing democracy'. They have mismanaged their country horribly electing or selecting one corrupt government after another. They have a bad history of oppressing ethnic minorities. But ultimately they have shown themselves to be utter fools when acting as a group making one unwise decision after another and then blaming everyone else but themselves. Not admirable at all. Of course you can say the same thing about the USSA. Why I live in Mexico.
If you don't care one way or another, then why are you bothering to comment here?
The Ukraine of the 90s is not the Ukraine of now. They have a ways to go, but shaking out corruption isn't all that easy, especially with Russia meddling.
No Ukraine is corrupt as hell all by itself. But nobody there voted for a war with Russia.
The eastern side of Russia is more friendly with it, so what Putin is doing is quite literally killing all his popular support in Ukraine.
Quote from: Lynn on March 14, 2022, 02:04:29 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 01:04:45 PM
And you keep saying the same thing. And its wrong. Moscow and St Petersburg are brutally cold, and the areas in the southern Siberia are much better weatherwise.
Except I am not. I didn't say Moscow and St Petersburg aren't cold, but they aren't sub-arctic. There's a difference. Also, that's where any real investment and innovation happens. You don't see a lot of young people wanting to go to Vladivostok for university, do you?
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 01:04:45 PM
As for Ukraine, I couldn't care less. They are the very opposite of a 'shining example of a growing democracy'. They have mismanaged their country horribly electing or selecting one corrupt government after another. They have a bad history of oppressing ethnic minorities. But ultimately they have shown themselves to be utter fools when acting as a group making one unwise decision after another and then blaming everyone else but themselves. Not admirable at all. Of course you can say the same thing about the USSA. Why I live in Mexico.
If you don't care one way or another, then why are you bothering to comment here?
The Ukraine of the 90s is not the Ukraine of now. They have a ways to go, but shaking out corruption isn't all that easy, especially with Russia meddling.
hahaha.. particularly not with Hunter and Joe Biden meddling... If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 04:58:33 PMIf I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
While I find this deeply ignorant, at least its honest.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 05:56:15 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 04:58:33 PMIf I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
While I find this deeply ignorant, at least its honest.
Get past the Mainstream Media coverage. Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country. I am not pro-Russia, but I am sure as hell not pro-Ukraine. It is only good for Western politicians to launder their money.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 04:58:33 PM
Quote from: Lynn on March 14, 2022, 02:04:29 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 01:04:45 PM
And you keep saying the same thing. And its wrong. Moscow and St Petersburg are brutally cold, and the areas in the southern Siberia are much better weatherwise.
Except I am not. I didn't say Moscow and St Petersburg aren't cold, but they aren't sub-arctic. There's a difference. Also, that's where any real investment and innovation happens. You don't see a lot of young people wanting to go to Vladivostok for university, do you?
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 01:04:45 PM
As for Ukraine, I couldn't care less. They are the very opposite of a 'shining example of a growing democracy'. They have mismanaged their country horribly electing or selecting one corrupt government after another. They have a bad history of oppressing ethnic minorities. But ultimately they have shown themselves to be utter fools when acting as a group making one unwise decision after another and then blaming everyone else but themselves. Not admirable at all. Of course you can say the same thing about the USSA. Why I live in Mexico.
If you don't care one way or another, then why are you bothering to comment here?
The Ukraine of the 90s is not the Ukraine of now. They have a ways to go, but shaking out corruption isn't all that easy, especially with Russia meddling.
hahaha.. particularly not with Hunter and Joe Biden meddling... If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
Oh look, a little commie stooge. What a shock.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:04:52 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 05:56:15 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 04:58:33 PMIf I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
While I find this deeply ignorant, at least its honest.
Get past the Mainstream Media coverage. Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country. I am not pro-Russia, but I am sure as hell not pro-Ukraine. It is only good for Western politicians to launder their money.
He's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:07:04 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:04:52 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 05:56:15 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 04:58:33 PMIf I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
While I find this deeply ignorant, at least its honest.
Get past the Mainstream Media coverage. Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country. I am not pro-Russia, but I am sure as hell not pro-Ukraine. It is only good for Western politicians to launder their money.
He's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.
Then he knows what I am saying is true. He may not like it, but that don't make it false. There has been a lot of things wrong happening in Ukraine. The EU Associates Agreement economically crippled Ukraine, Molodova, and Georgia. The fake talk about Ukraine becoming part of NATO... not good. The US encouraging the current regime to 'go down in flames' before allowing the information about the US politicians criminal behavior in Ukraine to come out. The current Ukrainian government is a disgrace... just a bunch of corrupt puppets working for some criminal oligarchs.
I understand how Ukrainians don't like to here these truths. Just like I don't like to hear the truths about the USSA. It hurts me. But I accept the truth. So should Ukrainians.
But what do I know. I used to live in Georgia before the BeerBug, traveled across all of Eastern Europe on business and pleasure, and I have clients right now in Ukraine (and some who have escaped from the country in order to avoid being conscripted into the Ukrainian military). I don't trust anything I am hearing. Its all lies. Perhaps when this is all over we will get some truth, but I doubt even then. TTFN. Have a lovely day! :)
Quote from: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:06:18 PM
hahaha.. particularly not with Hunter and Joe Biden meddling... If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
Oh look, a little commie stooge. What a shock.
[/quote]
HHAHAHA! Did someone say something that hoooort your wittle fweeelling Mistwell??? Then that person must be a [FILLIN THE BLANK ACCORDING TO WHICH TYPE OF RETARD YOU ARE]. I may be wrong -- I certainly have been wrong before -- but I would like to think I am just a tiny bit smarter than accusing anyone who disagrees with me of being a 'commie stooge...'
Hahahahahaha! What a retard you. But you are entertaining. Thanks for the laugh! :)
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:04:52 PMExplore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country.
So the people there deserve subjegation or death?
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:19:42 PMI used to live in Georgia before the BeerBug, traveled across all of Eastern Europe on business and pleasure, and I have clients right now in Ukraine (and some who have escaped from the country in order to avoid being conscripted into the Ukrainian military).
Man those whacky Ukrainians. Conscripting civilians for SOME reason. ;D
Quote from: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:07:04 PMHe's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.
Nah, not a stooge, just a moron or a troll. Who unironically says he lives in MEXICO to avoid governmental corruption.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:19:42 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:07:04 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:04:52 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 05:56:15 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 04:58:33 PMIf I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
While I find this deeply ignorant, at least its honest.
Get past the Mainstream Media coverage. Explore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country. I am not pro-Russia, but I am sure as hell not pro-Ukraine. It is only good for Western politicians to launder their money.
He's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.
Then he knows what I am saying is true. He may not like it, but that don't make it false. There has been a lot of things wrong happening in Ukraine. The EU Associates Agreement economically crippled Ukraine, Molodova, and Georgia. The fake talk about Ukraine becoming part of NATO... not good. The US encouraging the current regime to 'go down in flames' before allowing the information about the US politicians criminal behavior in Ukraine to come out. The current Ukrainian government is a disgrace... just a bunch of corrupt puppets working for some criminal oligarchs.
I understand how Ukrainians don't like to here these truths. Just like I don't like to hear the truths about the USSA. It hurts me. But I accept the truth. So should Ukrainians.
But what do I know. I used to live in Georgia before the BeerBug, traveled across all of Eastern Europe on business and pleasure, and I have clients right now in Ukraine (and some who have escaped from the country in order to avoid being conscripted into the Ukrainian military). I don't trust anything I am hearing. Its all lies. Perhaps when this is all over we will get some truth, but I doubt even then. TTFN. Have a lovely day! :)
You're literally repeating FSB propaganda right from RT.
Of course Ukraine is not perfect. Nobody here said or implied otherwise. But they're not nearly as bad as you're making them out to be - and the idea they are worse than Russia in these regards is absurd. But you are in fact following exactly the party line right now that the propaganda unit has been putting out in Russia. You don't trust anything you're hearing, except apparently Russian propaganda which you gleefully spread and apparently have no doubts about whatsoever.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 13, 2022, 05:17:18 AM
Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
As a wargamer, yes! I'm anticipating the board game or possibly an Advanced Squad Leader module. ;-)
In the real world, no.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:23:35 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:06:18 PM
hahaha.. particularly not with Hunter and Joe Biden meddling... If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
QuoteOh look, a little commie stooge. What a shock.
HHAHAHA! Did someone say something that hoooort your wittle fweeelling Mistwell??? Then that person must be a [FILLIN THE BLANK ACCORDING TO WHICH TYPE OF RETARD YOU ARE]. I may be wrong -- I certainly have been wrong before -- but I would like to think I am just a tiny bit smarter than accusing anyone who disagrees with me of being a 'commie stooge...'
Hahahahahaha! What a retard you. But you are entertaining. Thanks for the laugh! :)
You're repeating FSB propaganda nearly word for word. You're either too stupid to realize what you're reading is from them, or a stooge for them. Take your pick.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:04:52 PMExplore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country.
So the people there deserve subjegation or death?
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:19:42 PMI used to live in Georgia before the BeerBug, traveled across all of Eastern Europe on business and pleasure, and I have clients right now in Ukraine (and some who have escaped from the country in order to avoid being conscripted into the Ukrainian military).
Man those whacky Ukrainians. Conscripting civilians for SOME reason. ;D
Quote from: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:07:04 PMHe's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.
Nah, not a stooge, just a moron or a troll. Who unironically says he lives in MEXICO to avoid governmental corruption.
Yes. I do! Because Mexico is less corrupt than the USSA, Ukraine, and Russia. Hopefully someday I can return to my home in Georgia, but I am rather concerned that too many Georgians are looking at Ukraine as an example of how to behave and not a dire warning. I think I shall wait to see if the Georgians come to some agreement with the Russians or decide that they too want to 'go down in flames'.
You guys do like calling people names. That does no reflect very well on either of you... particularly since you are incapable of responding to the factual statements I made with anything other than personal insults. I must conclude that I am right and you are both dead wrong... one is an idiot consuming too much propaganda and war porn, and the other is desperate to believe his country is not a corrupt joke (I am extremely sympathetic to that because I am desperate from my country the USSA to not be a a corrupt joke -- perhaps I am more realistic, or just more cynical). Take care, and keep throwing around those cheap insults. They just make you look stupid.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:28:11 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:23:35 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:06:18 PM
hahaha.. particularly not with Hunter and Joe Biden meddling... If I had to choose between Russia and Ukraine I would choose Russia every time. Thank God I don't have to. If only the USSA was a little better than both.
QuoteOh look, a little commie stooge. What a shock.
HHAHAHA! Did someone say something that hoooort your wittle fweeelling Mistwell??? Then that person must be a [FILLIN THE BLANK ACCORDING TO WHICH TYPE OF RETARD YOU ARE]. I may be wrong -- I certainly have been wrong before -- but I would like to think I am just a tiny bit smarter than accusing anyone who disagrees with me of being a 'commie stooge...'
Hahahahahaha! What a retard you. But you are entertaining. Thanks for the laugh! :)
You're repeating FSB propaganda nearly word for word. You're either too stupid to realize what you're reading is from them, or a stooge for them. Take your pick.
Where could I find that FSB propaganda???? You seem to be an expert at it! Again, keep up the stupid comments. I might be wrong, but you are proving yourself to be an idiot. I will hopefully learn from my errors. I doubt you ever do.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:31:16 PMYes. I do! Because Mexico is less corrupt than the USSA, Ukraine, and Russia.
Well that puts everything into perspective. Tubular rad bro, you totally got all of us. I must bow down to your superior wisdom dude.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 06:35:47 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:31:16 PMYes. I do! Because Mexico is less corrupt than the USSA, Ukraine, and Russia.
Well that puts everything into perspective. Tubular rad bro, you totally got all of us. I must bow down to your superior wisdom dude.
I am not putting any long term faith in Mexico. It could turn to shit in a day. But until that time comes I will enjoy the good life. I hope you do too where every that may be!
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:04:52 PMExplore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country.
So the people there deserve subjegation or death?
I dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
Dood!
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:15:33 PMI dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 10:27:53 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:15:33 PMI dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.
Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:42:08 PMDont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
Im not delusional about Ukraines situation. Ukrainians are for the right to exit the fire and get back in the frying pan.
But I guess when it really does effect you more directly, a situation just isn't as funny.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 10:49:53 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:42:08 PMDont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
Im not delusional about Ukraines situation. Ukrainians are for the right to exit the fire and get back in the frying pan.
But I guess when it really does effect you more directly, a situation just isn't as funny.
No. I don't think it is funny at all. I think it is all tragic. I have some property in Georgia. I would like to go back there and enjoy my old age in peace there. I don't want this shit to happen to Georgia. I wish it was not happening to Ukraine. Best of luck. My prayers go with you and your family, as they do to all my friends in Ukraine.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 10:49:53 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:42:08 PMDont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
Im not delusional about Ukraines situation. Ukrainians are for the right to exit the fire and get back in the frying pan.
But I guess when it really does effect you more directly, a situation just isn't as funny.
How hot does your frying pan have to get?
You should have gone for quid pro quo with Trump instead of Brandon.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:42:08 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 10:27:53 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:15:33 PMI dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.
Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
Maybe consider trolling him a tad less then?
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:31:16 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:04:52 PMExplore just some recent history. Ukraine is a disgrace of a country.
So the people there deserve subjegation or death?
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 14, 2022, 06:19:42 PMI used to live in Georgia before the BeerBug, traveled across all of Eastern Europe on business and pleasure, and I have clients right now in Ukraine (and some who have escaped from the country in order to avoid being conscripted into the Ukrainian military).
Man those whacky Ukrainians. Conscripting civilians for SOME reason. ;D
Quote from: Mistwell on March 14, 2022, 06:07:04 PMHe's from Ukraine, with immediate family there right now, you ignorant little stooge.
Nah, not a stooge, just a moron or a troll. Who unironically says he lives in MEXICO to avoid governmental corruption.
Yes. I do! Because Mexico is less corrupt than the USSA, Ukraine, and Russia.
Damn dude, I knew the ganja was powerful in Mexico but I didn't realize just how powerful. I am surprised you can figure out which letters on your keyboard are which.
I mean seriously, pick any objective indicators of government corruption (not your own experience, which is obviously in the getting high category) and show me how Mexico ranks better than the other three. This should be good.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:42:08 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 10:27:53 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:15:33 PMI dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.
Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
He says in sarcastic black type.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 15, 2022, 12:17:07 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:42:08 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 14, 2022, 10:27:53 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2022, 10:15:33 PMI dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?
And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.
Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.
He says in sarcastic black type.
Good on ya, mate.
I think we can all agree that what's happening in Ukraine is bad, but at least it's not New Zealand.
Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2022, 05:28:21 PM
I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. ...
In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.
The status quo as it was on may 23rd is what Russia claimed as a Casus Belli to invade. I don't see how going back to that is a long term solution to anything.
Plus going back to the "status quo" is moot anyway.
In my opinion, the problem here is How do we kick Russia out without going to WW3?
We can't.
Sanctions? From everything I'm seeing Russia has prepared for this and they will not affect them quite as badly as Brandon's handlers thought.
Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.
So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2022, 05:28:21 PM
I agree that it sucks for the Ukrainians. So what do you suggest is best to do for the Ukrainians right now? ...
Give to quality Humanitarian Charities like you suggested is really the only thing to do right now aside from wait and hope we don't wind up in WW3.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 12, 2022, 07:07:33 PM
...
Is it just me or does it seem that the US is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?
Yes. Absolutely. It is obvious.
The current Elites running our country would see it as a good thing if Russia gets bogged down in an Afghanistan insurgency situation.
But what would save the most innocent Ukrainian lives in the long run?
Well, Russia is all-in on this. Whether you agree with them or not, they saw the situation in Ukraine as an existential security threat, which is why they invaded.
The clear life saving option would be for the West to convince Z to surrender, and cut a deal with Russia for a neutral Ukraine.
That would save actual lives.
What is the West doing?
Sending Billions in weapons.
Well Russia (or putin and his cronies) see Ukraine as wanting to return to Russia. He is irrational and delusional, which is why I don't 100% believe in a fast surrender.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 11:49:38 AM
Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.
So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
You have a lot more faith than I do in the world's leaders.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 11:49:38 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2022, 05:28:21 PM
I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. ...
In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.
The status quo as it was on may 23rd is what Russia claimed as a Casus Belli to invade. I don't see how going back to that is a long term solution to anything.
Plus going back to the "status quo" is moot anyway.
In my opinion, the problem here is How do we kick Russia out without going to WW3?
We can't.
This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 17, 2022, 03:00:40 PM
This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.
Quote from: Pat on March 17, 2022, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 17, 2022, 03:00:40 PM
This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.
Pat, do you disagree with what I said or did you think that snark was helpful in some fashion beyond the entertainment value of snark? To be clear, I am not denigrating the entertainment value of snark. Just checking on your intent here.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 11:49:38 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2022, 05:28:21 PM
I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. ...
In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.
The status quo as it was on may 23rd is what Russia claimed as a Casus Belli to invade. I don't see how going back to that is a long term solution to anything.
Plus going back to the "status quo" is moot anyway.
In my opinion, the problem here is How do we kick Russia out without going to WW3?
We can't.
Sanctions? From everything I'm seeing Russia has prepared for this and they will not affect them quite as badly as Brandon's handlers thought.
Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.
So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
You're speaking as if it's all-or-nothing. Either the world militarily forces Russia out immediately, or we do nothing. But from the perspective of incentives, that's not the case. The more adversity Russia goes through because of its invasion, the less attractive invasion will appear to all other would-be conquerors. Even if the Russians ultimately succeed, what matters is the cost. The higher the price tag is, the less likely that others will want to buy it.
This will have major implication not only for the other former Soviet states, but also for Taiwan, Western Sahara, South Korea, and many other regions. If the world's response is to do nothing and encourage surrender to the invader, then all sorts of countries will see that conquest is profitable. Contrary to your assertion, I think the economic sanction do have an effect. They won't magically take out Russia's armies, but they strongly affect how profitable the war is -- which goes into the calculus of whether Russia or other countries will attempt more such invasions in the future.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 11:49:38 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 12, 2022, 07:07:33 PM
Is it just me or does it seem that the US is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?
Yes. Absolutely. It is obvious.
The current Elites running our country would see it as a good thing if Russia gets bogged down in an Afghanistan insurgency situation.
But what would save the most innocent Ukrainian lives in the long run?
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 11:49:38 AM
Well, Russia is all-in on this. Whether you agree with them or not, they saw the situation in Ukraine as an existential security threat, which is why they invaded.
The clear life saving option would be for the West to convince Z to surrender, and cut a deal with Russia for a neutral Ukraine.
I don't think it is clear that surrender saves lives in the long run -- just like how paying terrorists what they want doesn't save lives in the long run. Putin isn't honest and good-hearted and just wanting to protect Russia. He is engaged in this war for *profit*, not for defense. Giving him what he wants isn't going to make the world safer by appeasing him. It will send a clear signal that invasions for profit are allowed and encouraged.
You and Shasarak are speaking as if the only reason that the Ukrainians are fighting is because the American elites are telling them to, which I think is bullshit. The Ukrainians are fighting because it's their country. If they want to surrender, I wouldn't blame them - but if they want to fight, then I think they should be supported.
Quote from: Pat on March 17, 2022, 02:57:31 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 11:49:38 AM
Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.
So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
You have a lot more faith than I do in the world's leaders.
I do have some
Hope that they won't go full retard and do shit like a "No Fly Zone" over Ukraine.
Admittedly, their current temper tantrum of shipping more weapons and "aid" into Ukraine is certainly not helping matters at all!
Quote from: Pat on March 17, 2022, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 17, 2022, 03:00:40 PM
This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.
He seems to extrapolate/read more from people's posts
than what they actually wrote.
He then restates his extrapolation
as if you had used those exact words yourself, and then proceeds to argue against it.
I am not the only poster in this thread, let alone this site, to experience this.
"Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3" - Ummm yeah, that's actually what I expect to
eventually happen if the West does not lose its mind...
On "Russia pulling back from Ukraine":Russia wants regime change in Ukraine. As I stated in reply # 51 of this thread. I would also assume that they would eventually pull back if Z surrendered, and gives Putin everything he wants. I very much doubt that Z would remain in power however.
Russia will pull out of Ukraine when they feel that they have done what they have set out to accomplish, more or less (Negotiations ongoing etc..)
In my opinion: Russia does not want to
permanently occupy Ukraine. They want it as a neutralish buffer state between them and NATO. And they will recognize the Donbass republics as a new country - for however long that lasts. I don't know the ultimate fate of the people in the Donbass.
Do I believe that Russia will pull back from Ukraine do to the Sanctions, or by some miracle, being militarily defeated by the Ukrainians?
No. Russia is all-in on this.
On "No WW3":I certainly hope so.
And nowhere in my posts have I said that WW3 is going to happen.I am concerned about it. Because this war is very dangerous and could easily spiral out of control.
The current crop of Elites running the US/West are idiots, and acting all kinds of stupid.
Everyone should be concerned.
Greetings!
Yeah, "Status Quo". Fuck that. We aren't going back to any kind of "Status Quo". 300,000 Russian troops and President Vladimir Putin have made sure that the EU and America now gets to shut the fuck up and listen to what Russia says. The Russians are indeed all-in on ensuring that their Ukrainian border is secure, whether we like it or not. Unfortunately for the ordinary Ukrainian people caught up in this fucking international game of cock-measuring, profit-mongering, and political corruption, they certainly won't be going back to any kind of "Status Quo".
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
At this point Russia can't have a functional Regime in Ukraine without an occupation.
Its one thing to knock over one puppet for another. Its another to murder your people and expect them to like you.
The Ukrainian army has deserted for Russia before (the navy in crimea). They didn't this time even when given the opportunity.
Nobody in Ukraine likes Zelensky. If Russia bombed him in his sleep, it would be one tjing. But Russia has made itself an existential threat of Ukraine. Whatever Putins plan was, I get the sense that this wasn't it.
Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2022, 04:40:27 PM
Even if the Russians ultimately succeed, what matters is the cost. The higher the price tag is, the less likely that others will want to buy it.
The USA is spending billions and billions to defend this corrupt country.
/I'm paying for it. My neighbors are paying for it. I don't want to.
Clearly no lessons have been learned here.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 05:45:07 PMNobody in Ukraine likes Zelensky. If Russia bombed him in his sleep, it would be one tjing. But Russia has made itself an existential threat of Ukraine. Whatever Putins plan was, I get the sense that this wasn't it.
I don't think that's entirely true. Some of my colleagues really thought he was a joke at first and would roll over, and all things considered, the guy was a comedian. But some also are appreciating that he hasn't turned out to be the joke they originally thought he was.
Quote from: Lynn on March 17, 2022, 05:59:25 PMI don't think that's entirely true.
Well I mean he most certainly got some points by not just running or rolling over, but before this everybody knew him for the corrupt censorious toad he was.
Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2022, 04:40:27 PM
I don't think it is clear that surrender saves lives in the long run -- just like how paying terrorists what they want doesn't save lives in the long run. Putin isn't honest and good-hearted and just wanting to protect Russia. He is engaged in this war for *profit*, not for defense. Giving him what he wants isn't going to make the world safer by appeasing him. It will send a clear signal that invasions for profit are allowed and encouraged.
In my opinion:The people currently running the US are not honest or good-hearted and just wanting to protect Ukraine...
Their interests have been demonstrably shown to be interventionist, self-serving, and corrupt.
And if anyone has been sending signals to the world that wars for profit are Ok; for the past thirty years it has been the US.
Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2022, 04:40:27 PM
You and Shasarak are speaking as if the only reason that the Ukrainians are fighting is because the American elites are telling them to, which I think is bullshit. The Ukrainians are fighting because it's their country. If they want to surrender, I wouldn't blame them - but if they want to fight, then I think they should be supported.
It is not the only reason. But Americas continued lies and false promises of some theoretical victory by our out of control propaganda are a factor.
I don't blame them for fighting for their country. It is the natural thing to do.
But they fought. And in my opinion, we are at the point that nothing the West can give them will stave off the inevitable.
Forcibly conscripting all adult males, and passing out weapons to untrained civilians are not signs that things have gone their way...
All their trained armed forces are split up. They are all completely surrounded in different pockets throughout the country. And they are slowly running out of supplies with no ability to get more. Russian armed forces have surrounded some of the major cities and are laying siege.
That is the current situation as I understand it.
What conventional weapon system we can give to them that will suddenly turn the tide here?
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 06:23:55 PM
It is not the only reason. But Americas continued lies and false promises of some theoretical victory by our out of control propaganda are a factor.
Im not the ultimate boots on the ground warrior, but I think your overvaluate what Ukrainians think of USAs propaganda. Zelenksy mocking Russia was the factor of thinking NATO would immediatly have his back. So in that sense he has possibly made it worse alongside of NATO and the west. But the avarage person living in the Ukraine doesn't have immediate internet access at all.
I don't really know why Ukrainians are fighting. When this began I thought it would be over in a week or less. Ukraine wasn't a place everybody really wanted to be. One of the lowest brith rates on the planet.
Im guessing there is a sense that there isn't much to gain from a surrender in the long term. If they surrender now and promise to turn belly up, what happens when Putin feels like he needs a win and does this again? What happens if he feels like he needs troops stationed in West Ukraine to show up the west? Or says 'I don't like this EU trade deal, stop it'.
Ukraine has a history of taking abuse from Russia to a genocidal degree.
But do I see victory? No. But I don't see Russia really winning either. It doesn't have the economy to pump into an occupation or bribing the country into an illusion of liking Russia. You can't have a puppet state when the avarage civilian genuinly and utterly HATES you.
Edit: My Father is however boots on the ground in the Russian economy. Russia is prepared to wait this out economically in a very short term only.
These people got screwed as bad as Poland. No matter who won ww2 they lost.
Millions of Ukranian christians got murdered around ww2 it was called the Holodomor. We were supporting those commie bastards who never did anything for anyone else. But I guess that and this damned pandemic weren't enough.
Good luck you guys in Ukraine. I'll hope the best for you this St. Patrick's day.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 06:39:15 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 06:23:55 PM
It is not the only reason. But Americas continued lies and false promises of some theoretical victory by our out of control propaganda are a factor.
Im not the ultimate boots on the ground warrior, but I think your overvaluate what Ukrainians think of USAs propaganda. Zelenksy mocking Russia was the factor of thinking NATO would immediatly have his back. So in that sense he has possibly made it worse alongside of NATO and the west. But the avarage person living in the Ukraine doesn't have immediate internet access at all.
I don't really know why Ukrainians are fighting. When this began I thought it would be over in a week or less. Ukraine wasn't a place everybody really wanted to be. One of the lowest brith rates on the planet.
Im guessing there is a sense that there isn't much to gain from a surrender in the long term. If they surrender now and promise to turn belly up, what happens when Putin feels like he needs a win and does this again? What happens if he feels like he needs troops stationed in West Ukraine to show up the west? Or says 'I don't like this EU trade deal, stop it'.
Ukraine has a history of taking abuse from Russia to a genocidal degree.
But do I see victory? No. But I don't see Russia really winning either. It doesn't have the economy to pump into an occupation or bribing the country into an illusion of liking Russia. You can't have a puppet state when the avarage civilian genuinly and utterly HATES you.
Edit: My Father is however boots on the ground in the Russian economy. Russia is prepared to wait this out economically in a very short term only.
Nobody thought the Civil War would last.
Nobody thought a dime-a-dozen assassination of a guy called Ferdinand would matter- then it was World War 1.
Nobody really thought Japan was dangerous in China. Until they took it over.
You look at history and before any big mess everything seemed normal just a few years before.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 06:06:00 PM
Well I mean he most certainly got some points by not just running or rolling over, but before this everybody knew him for the corrupt censorious toad he was.
After I read your comment I asked my long time colleague and friend in Kherson if his opinion had changed since he was online. Many of my older generation contacts were extremely skeptical of him (and because of so many not great ones before this one) after he was elected and thought he'd roll over immediately to Russia. Anyway, my colleague mentioned that _NOW_ he seems more like a real politician, but that he also has a strange obsession to meet with Putin himself, even though it is thought they had met in 2019 in France.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 17, 2022, 03:18:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 17, 2022, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 17, 2022, 03:00:40 PM
This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.
Pat, do you disagree with what I said or did you think that snark was helpful in some fashion beyond the entertainment value of snark? To be clear, I am not denigrating the entertainment value of snark. Just checking on your intent here.
I disagree, but I addressed that in another post. In this one, I was pointing out that you're attacking the person, not the argument.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 04:52:05 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 17, 2022, 02:57:31 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 11:49:38 AM
Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.
So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
You have a lot more faith than I do in the world's leaders.
I do have some Hope that they won't go full retard and do shit like a "No Fly Zone" over Ukraine.
Admittedly, their current temper tantrum of shipping more weapons and "aid" into Ukraine is certainly not helping matters at all!
Reminds me a lot of the worries about the first atomic bomb test. The scientists were concerned it could set off an uncontrolled chain reaction in the atmosphere. It got bumped up the chain of command, rejected, and the nucleomagicians made a small sun appear over Trinity.
Studies since have suggested such a chain reaction is impossible. They were worried over nothing. But they didn't know that, at the time. While it was a fringe theory and they were pretty confident it wouldn't happen, they weren't
sure.
What if they were wrong? Then the Earth's atmosphere would have exploded, and every human being, every animal, and every plant would have died.
That's why it was the wrong call. A slim chance isn't zero, and we need the chances to be as close to zero as possible, when the potential downside is the end of the human race. Roll the dice once, and we're probably fine. A thousand times, and we might still be good. But how many millions or billions of years of future does the human race have? How many times will we roll those dice? Getting it wrong just once could end everything.
Why did they make that call? Human reasons. Pressure to get the job done. Delight in seeing one's work put to the test, instead of shelved forever. The exigencies of war, bureaucracy, psychology, and the culture of science. But most of all, we're just terrible at making risk assessments around existential threats. We apply our normal, everyday human standards, but that's the wrong framework. And it's the framework even non-foolish (I dream) politicians and scientists use.
I don't think it's likely the happy fun armored conga line in the Ukraine could lead to WW3, and I think there's a vanishingly small chance a no-fly zone could escalate into blossoms of hard radiation and heat over major world capitols. And most nuclear outcomes aren't that bad, when compared to human extinction. Even if it clusterfucks on top of clusterfucks and we bomb ourselves back to the Stone Age, that's just a setback of a few thousand years. In the cosmological scheme of things, it barely qualifies as a blip.
But there is a chance, and it's not pushed as far down toward zero as possible. Which should worry us.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 04:52:05 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 17, 2022, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 17, 2022, 03:00:40 PM
This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.
This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.
He seems to extrapolate/read more from people's posts than what they actually wrote.
He then restates his extrapolation as if you had used those exact words yourself, and then proceeds to argue against it.
I am not the only poster in this thread, let alone this site, to experience this.
I'm constantly told what I believe by posters on this site, who demand I defend the fictitious positions they made up for me.
99% of the time it's not Mistwell.
Point it out when it happens, but don't pretend it's the fault of a single person. In this age of partisan bad faith and hubris, it's almost omnipresent.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 06:39:15 PM
I don't really know why Ukrainians are fighting. When this began I thought it would be over in a week or less. Ukraine wasn't a place everybody really wanted to be. One of the lowest brith rates on the planet.
I think we should call the inevitable baby boom Putin's Baby Bump.
Well if this is true (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60785754), this seems like a OK way out. This depends entirely on the amount of territory Russia wants. If Ukraine can get a security guaruntee from NATO, I think this would be alright. So Ukraine would be a part of NATO, just in a way Putin can tell himself was a win. Id be honestly really happy with an arrangement that placates Putin and ensures that Ukraine just can't get invaded again.
I just REALLY, hope this isn't a ploy to waste time by Putin.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 11:08:21 PM
Well if this is true (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60785754), this seems like a OK way out. This depends entirely on the amount of territory Russia wants. If Ukraine can get a security guaruntee from NATO, I think this would be alright. So Ukraine would be a part of NATO, just in a way Putin can tell himself was a win. Id be honestly really happy with an arrangement that placates Putin and ensures that Ukraine just can't get invaded again.
I just REALLY, hope this isn't a ploy to waste time by Putin.
Turkey playing the intermediary is weird, but better than China.
Quote from: Pat on March 17, 2022, 11:20:37 PMTurkey playing the intermediary is weird, but better than China.
It is, but I seriously just want the fighting to end. If Putin can say 'And I made Ukraine De-Nazify!' to his base, then fuck it, let him have that Phyrric victory while he sits apon an economy he has sabotaged for the next 5-20 years.
My biggest hope is that Ukraine also takes this as somewhat of a win, and maybe gets some public unity out of this for once. Managing to eek out anything out of Russia is still impressive. Foriegn support or not, failure on Russia or not, somebody had to stand up and face the Russian army, which is what I thought no Ukrainian civilian or army man had the guts to do.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2022, 05:45:07 PM
Nobody in Ukraine likes Zelensky. If Russia bombed him in his sleep, it would be one tjing. But Russia has made itself an existential threat of Ukraine. Whatever Putins plan was, I get the sense that this wasn't it.
From 8 days ago, "Eighty-eight percent of Ukrainians said they are favorable toward President Volodymyr Zelensky"
He wasn't very popular a few months ago. Now? He's very popular. I think you might be a tad behind the times on that one.
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Putin, is that you?
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AMSeems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis
Yeah, one day for no reason at all, the hordes of neo-nazis where about to invade Russia with their almost complete army of nuclear squids, and then the poor Russians had no choice to retaliate. And then the neo nazis started grinding up baby organs into bullets. And blowing up their own buildings out of spite.
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Links plz.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 18, 2022, 11:58:53 AM
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AMSeems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis
Yeah, one day for no reason at all, the hordes of neo-nazis where about to invade Russia with their almost complete army of nuclear squids, and then the poor Russians had no choice to retaliate. And then the neo nazis started grinding up baby organs into bullets. And blowing up their own buildings out of spite.
An invasion of nuclear squids using baby organ bullets? I'd play that game.
Quote from: Pat on March 18, 2022, 12:31:02 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 18, 2022, 11:58:53 AM
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AMSeems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis
Yeah, one day for no reason at all, the hordes of neo-nazis where about to invade Russia with their almost complete army of nuclear squids, and then the poor Russians had no choice to retaliate. And then the neo nazis started grinding up baby organs into bullets. And blowing up their own buildings out of spite.
An invasion of nuclear squids using baby organ bullets? I'd play that game.
IIRV, there was something like that in Battlelords of the 23rd Century.
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Are you professionally this obtuse or is it just a hobby for you?
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 12:54:29 PM
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Are you professionally this obtuse or is it just a hobby for you?
So what is your response to the actual content of his comment???? Are you capable of responding to the actual statement, or only making insults and calling someone names? Asking for a friend.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 18, 2022, 01:23:21 PM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 12:54:29 PM
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Are you professionally this obtuse or is it just a hobby for you?
So what is your response to the actual content of his comment???? Are you capable of responding to the actual statement, or only making insults and calling someone names? Asking for a friend.
Tell your "friend" that if "he" is unable to figure out the meaning of my response then he must be quite deficient in the intellectual department. Also ask "him" why he singles out me when Shrieking Banshee replys sarcastically and HD is the one with actual name-calling.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 02:16:10 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 18, 2022, 01:23:21 PM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 12:54:29 PM
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Are you professionally this obtuse or is it just a hobby for you?
So what is your response to the actual content of his comment???? Are you capable of responding to the actual statement, or only making insults and calling someone names? Asking for a friend.
Tell your "friend" that if "he" is unable to figure out the meaning of my response then he must be quite deficient in the intellectual department. Also ask "him" why he singles out me when Shrieking Banshee replys sarcastically and HD is the one with actual name-calling.
So you cannot respond to the actual content of a comment... only insults and name calling. Ok. Got it.
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 18, 2022, 02:19:42 PM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 02:16:10 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on March 18, 2022, 01:23:21 PM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 12:54:29 PM
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Are you professionally this obtuse or is it just a hobby for you?
So what is your response to the actual content of his comment???? Are you capable of responding to the actual statement, or only making insults and calling someone names? Asking for a friend.
Tell your "friend" that if "he" is unable to figure out the meaning of my response then he must be quite deficient in the intellectual department. Also ask "him" why he singles out me when Shrieking Banshee replys sarcastically and HD is the one with actual name-calling.
So you cannot respond to the actual content of a comment... only insults and name calling. Ok. Got it.
Oh dear. I guess I actually have to spell it out for you.. i mean your "friend"
total bullshit
Putin propaganda
Qanon level conspiracy theory
Clear enough?
This new propaganda seems to have taken an odd turn
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOBUdLHVkAM869r?format=jpg&name=900x900)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOBUddNVkAcaFtk?format=jpg&name=large)
Before this all started I had more respect for Putin then Ukraine, and even Biden to a degree. I thought Putin was the leader it needed to manage its constant internal corruption to prevent the state from just imploding. And I knew that it wanted a degree of respect from the west and that the west didn't respect it the same way.
But whatever the fuck else, this doesn't justify what he is doing. If brad lies to your girlfriend, and as a result she dumps you, you don't get to rape her out of revenge.
Whatever the fuck the west did. Whatever the fuck awful bad things it did, that doesn't Justify what Putin is doing. And I don't believe for a micro-second that if the west was as ethical as it claims to be, Putin would avoid engaging in the tactics he is doing now.
As for 'Its all nazis using human shields', is just such a nonsense argument you may as well genuinly argue for atomic squid-bots. I have my family there and nobody there is being strongarmed by nazis just begging to let russia win. But I doubt for any of my 'as direct as possible' sources would be enough to debunk your claims substantiated by nothing.
If I claim your a demon from hell, and that I have 'contacts that confirm it' and that its all athiest propaganda that demons don't exist, how does one debate that?
Quote from: Shasarak on March 18, 2022, 04:10:46 PM
This new propaganda seems to have taken an odd turn
Ha.
One theory is that the reason the USA is providing so much support is maybe the upper echalons of Ukraine have enough dirt on biden to demand he aids them under fear they expose his dirty laundry.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 18, 2022, 04:32:12 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 18, 2022, 04:10:46 PM
This new propaganda seems to have taken an odd turn
Ha.
One theory is that the reason the USA is providing so much support is maybe the upper echalons of Ukraine have enough dirt on biden to demand he aids them under fear they expose his dirty laundry.
The tiny flaw in that theory (its not tiny at all) is that that doesnt explain the support from the entire EU, Norway, UK, Turkey, Japan, Canada... Hell. Even China just recently decided to "You know what? This Putin fella is really toxic. /end relationship"
I really doubt Ukraine has dirt on them all.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 05:02:11 PMThe tiny flaw in that theory (its not tiny at all) is that that doesnt explain the support from the entire EU, Norway, UK, Turkey, Japan, Canada... Hell. Even China just recently decided to "You know what? This Putin fella is really toxic. /end relationship"
Well what I mean is the hubbub raised. Once the USAs media arm starts working, everybody else largely lives what it sees. There has been strangely more care for what Russia is doing now then similar situations.
With China I kinda doubt it and there has been major back and fourth. I don't think China has anything against genocide or oppression, and might be more like 'You are currently not worth defending publicly'.
...And now I have recieved news that the bombing has reached the neighborhood where our Ukrainian house is...Brilliant.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 18, 2022, 05:02:11 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 18, 2022, 04:32:12 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 18, 2022, 04:10:46 PM
This new propaganda seems to have taken an odd turn
Ha.
One theory is that the reason the USA is providing so much support is maybe the upper echalons of Ukraine have enough dirt on biden to demand he aids them under fear they expose his dirty laundry.
The tiny flaw in that theory (its not tiny at all) is that that doesnt explain the support from the entire EU, Norway, UK, Turkey, Japan, Canada... Hell. Even China just recently decided to "You know what? This Putin fella is really toxic. /end relationship"
I really doubt Ukraine has dirt on them all.
If only every other Government didnt need some kind of external reason to blame all of the Covid inflation on.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 18, 2022, 05:05:44 PM
...And now I have recieved news that the bombing has reached the neighborhood where our Ukrainian house is...Brilliant.
Thats impossible, I have high quality propaganda that assures me that the Russians are being pushed back.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 18, 2022, 05:24:16 PMThats impossible, I have high quality propaganda that assures me that the Russians are being pushed back.
I can't verify that propaganda, but the area they claim to have pushed back is in the opposite side of said neighborhood. But if they need a morale boost then whatever.
Because if falls further into Kiev, then people I know personally will start dying.
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Seems to me that is the stupidest take I've see yet. Congratulations!
https://futurism.com/space-conference-censors-yuri-gagarin
Gagarin was the first human in space. It's one of the greatest symbols of human achievement, of all time.
But he was from Russia[1], so he must be canceled.
Fuck this, and fuck them.
[1] Technically, no. He wasn't from Russia. Because Russia didn't exist during his lifetime. He was from the Soviet Union and died more than 50 years ago. But that's apparently close enough, if you're a virtue signaler targeting innocent people based on where they live.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 18, 2022, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: KingCheops on March 18, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
Seems to me the only reason Ukrainians are fighting is because literal neo-nazis are summarily executing fighting age men who try to leave and are keeping their families as hostages/human shields to try and create humanitarian tragedies for propaganda purposes.
Putin, is that you?
Oceania was never at war with Nazis. Oceania has always been at war with Russia
Facebook lifts ban on Nazis. (https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-battalion-russia/)
Quote from: Pat on March 18, 2022, 11:10:02 PM
https://futurism.com/space-conference-censors-yuri-gagarin
Gagarin was the first human in space. It's one of the greatest symbols of human achievement, of all time.
But he was from Russia[1], so he must be canceled.
Fuck this, and fuck them.
[1] Technically, no. He wasn't from Russia. Because Russia didn't exist during his lifetime. He was from the Soviet Union and died more than 50 years ago. But that's apparently close enough, if you're a virtue signaler targeting innocent people based on where they live.
Can we get some Freedom Fries and liberty cabbage with that?
(I agree with you, though.)
Quote from: Pat on March 18, 2022, 11:10:02 PM
https://futurism.com/space-conference-censors-yuri-gagarin
Gagarin was the first human in space. It's one of the greatest symbols of human achievement, of all time.
But he was from Russia[1], so he must be canceled.
Fuck this, and fuck them.
[1] Technically, no. He wasn't from Russia. Because Russia didn't exist during his lifetime. He was from the Soviet Union and died more than 50 years ago. But that's apparently close enough, if you're a virtue signaler targeting innocent people based on where they live.
What a stupid thing they did. I am still celebrating Yuri's Night, like I do every year. Which is April 12 by the way.
Quote from: Pat on March 18, 2022, 11:10:02 PM
https://futurism.com/space-conference-censors-yuri-gagarin
Those filthy russians. Find all the ones outside of Russia, round them all up and send them to DEATHCAMPS. Thats the best possible way to demonstrate your own virtue, and helps Ukraine allot.
Heck broadcast this abuse to them Russians and tell them 'The whole world is against you! We will hate you forever no matter what!'. Im sure that will get them to stop invading Ukraine for sure.
This is the utterly logical extent of cancel culture, and the logic that if something is bad in the moment, everything orbitting that thing must be destroyed, lest you be seen a not supporting the cause.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 19, 2022, 01:10:03 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 18, 2022, 11:10:02 PM
https://futurism.com/space-conference-censors-yuri-gagarin
Those filthy russians. Find all the ones outside of Russia, round them all up and send them to DEATHCAMPS. Thats the best possible way to demonstrate your own virtue, and helps Ukraine allot.
Heck broadcast this abuse to them Russians and tell them 'The whole world is against you! We will hate you forever no matter what!'. Im sure that will get them to stop invading Ukraine for sure.
This is the utterly logical extent of cancel culture, and the logic that if something is bad in the moment, everything orbitting that thing must be destroyed, lest you be seen a not supporting the cause.
Yes, this trend is far more disturbing that just scrubbing a historical figure's name from an event. That's toxic, but Gagarin's long dead, and his place in history is secure, anyway. It's like the vandalism of Churchill's statue, during the mainstream media-backed terrorist insurrection, 2 years ago. They're both disturbing because they're attempts to erase history, but no living person is being hurt.
But at the same time and based on the same rationale, the supposedly enlightened elites are demanding Russian classical conductors and opera singers publicly disavow Putin, or be canceled and never work again. Demanding a political purity test, or an oath of fealty, before you're allowed to provide for your family... isn't that how totalitarian regimes operate?
It's also murderous. These people are Russian citizens, and even if they don't currently live in Russia, they have families in Russia. And Putin is an authoritarian dictator. What do you think will happen, if these people comply, and denounce him? I'd call forcing people to risk the lives and well being of themselves and their families psychopathic, but I don't think the people canceling an entire country have thought through the consequences. Instead, they're psychopathically oblivious.
The same type of thinking cropped up during the Winter Olympics. If you've read my previous posts, you'll know I'm not kind to the genocidal ways of the CCP. And I think the Olympic committee is corrupt and immoral. But the demand that the Olympics denounce the Uyghur genocide is highly destructive.
What's the point of the Olympics? The entire point is for nations to put aside their differences, and come together to celebrate something that has nothing do with politics. Jesse Owens winning 4 golds in Berlin? That was fucking amazing. Athletes from the Soviet Union and USSR competing during almost the entire Cold War, while each nation had thousands of nuclear missiles pointed at each other? Again, a great thing.
But would it have been possible, if the Olympic committee was forced to denounce Hilter and Stalin? Absolutely not. What if all the Russian or German athletes were forced to denounce their leaders? We could ask Li Ping, but all we'd get is a fake smile and a carefully curated media event.
We
need these neutral spaces, because they remind us we're all human. Nadia Comăneci wasn't this faceless enemy, she became the world's darling and the face of her sport. The insistence that every company, every organization, and every person must loudly proclaim their support for the current social injustice cause, and even more loudly declaim anything and anyone who's been canceled by the intolerant elite, means we'll never make those connections. The Enemy becomes monolithic, inhuman, and irredeemable.
Which of course, makes it a lot easier to kill them. Kind of ironic, isn't it? The people who are pretending to oppose genocide are setting up the psychological conditions that facilitate genocide.
We need to stop this indiscriminate social credit bombing of entire nations and peoples.
Quote from: Pat on March 19, 2022, 02:42:29 PMWe need these neutral spaces, because they remind us we're all human. Nadia Comăneci wasn't this faceless enemy, she became the world's darling and the face of her sport. The insistence that every company, every organization, and every person must loudly proclaim their support for the current social injustice cause, and even more loudly declaim anything and anyone who's been canceled by the intolerant elite, means we'll never make those connections. The Enemy becomes monolithic, inhuman, and irredeemable.
Even from a 'cynical' angle, I would try to promote as much nuetral spaces for Russians as possible. Putin has everybody watching TV and blind to the rest of the world. Closing any remaining windows just ensures they have nothing else to believe in.
But the evil stuff of things like 'Protest to get Putin down or we take away your Xbox' is indeed super evil. Fuck you buddy, YOU book a plane to Russia and setup a protest.
The current tactics are also terrible. As Sun-Tsu said, if you leave a enemy no place to go they will become rabid in defense. Say 'Yo upper end Oligarchs. If you want you Yachts and Planes back and a promise of security against Putin, do X'. That might actually do something (possibly, maybe). Punching the avarage civie just gives him more support.
So much of this is done without understanding Slavic politics.
I do really really hope that Putin settles for a compromise on the russian backed areas of Ukraine so he can get a win and some rebuilding can ensue. But success in war doesn't garuntee a cleansing of corruption. :'(
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 19, 2022, 02:54:52 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 19, 2022, 02:42:29 PMWe need these neutral spaces, because they remind us we're all human. Nadia Comăneci wasn't this faceless enemy, she became the world's darling and the face of her sport. The insistence that every company, every organization, and every person must loudly proclaim their support for the current social injustice cause, and even more loudly declaim anything and anyone who's been canceled by the intolerant elite, means we'll never make those connections. The Enemy becomes monolithic, inhuman, and irredeemable.
Even from a 'cynical' angle, I would try to promote as much nuetral spaces for Russians as possible. Putin has everybody watching TV and blind to the rest of the world. Closing any remaining windows just ensures they have nothing else to believe in.
But the evil stuff of things like 'Protest to get Putin down or we take away your Xbox' is indeed super evil. Fuck you buddy, YOU book a plane to Russia and setup a protest.
The current tactics are also terrible. As Sun-Tsu said, if you leave a enemy no place to go they will become rabid in defense. Say 'Yo upper end Oligarchs. If you want you Yachts and Planes back and a promise of security against Putin, do X'. That might actually do something (possibly, maybe). Punching the avarage civie just gives him more support.
So much of this is done without understanding Slavic politics.
I do really really hope that Putin settles for a compromise on the russian backed areas of Ukraine so he can get a win and some rebuilding can ensue. But success in war doesn't garuntee a cleansing of corruption. :'(
The same is true on the other side. The way the Western media and elites have been operating in lockstep is creepy as hell. We need alternate perspectives.
I've made the cornered dog argument before. You're also correct in that selective pressure would be lot more effective than blanket bans. The blanket bans come from sense of purity or injustice, and they're just an attempt to punish. Which of course is evil, because they're not punishing the ones responsible in proportion to their crimes. Instead, they're flailing out at anyone associated with something they deem bad, until they feel better. But specifically targeting a few people with real influence, and giving them practical and concrete actions to take, could have positive effects. Sans a coup, the oligarchs aren't going to denounce Putin. But they may be able to sway him in certain directions, or at least provide an assessment or a conduit for talks.
That feeds back to my old statement that we need some hardnosed diplomats versed in geopolitics to solve this problem, not ideologues. If you have an idealized version of the world and what is right, then this is a Gordian knot that can only be solved by hacking it apart and throwing away the pieces. Which is about the worst possible solution, when the knot is people.
Quote from: Pat on March 19, 2022, 03:40:56 PMThe same is true on the other side. The way the Western media and elites have been operating in lockstep is creepy as hell. We need alternate perspectives.
Yup. What if they decide that if you don't let immigrants in, they will unperson you as well?
QuoteIf you have an idealized version of the world and what is right, then this is a Gordian knot that can only be solved by hacking it apart and throwing away the pieces. Which is about the worst possible solution, when the knot is people.
Yup. Ukraine will not hold out forever. Build Putin a golden bridge. Play along if required.
'Oh that sexy unstoppable Putin put a stop to our evil western backed Nazi plot! And he promoted the Russian language in Ukraine! That is such a hard target to achieve, it was totally worth this war. Why, it was so worth it, Crimea is a pittance in comparison.'
I think to Zelenskies credit, I think he isn't planning on fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian, and is willing to budge on some topics. I think even the separatist regions may be possible to get some sort of compromise with.
I just really hope Putin hasn't entered into Rabid dog mode yet.
Quote from: Pat on March 18, 2022, 11:10:02 PM
https://futurism.com/space-conference-censors-yuri-gagarin
Gagarin was the first human in space. It's one of the greatest symbols of human achievement, of all time.
But he was from Russia[1], so he must be canceled.
Fuck this, and fuck them.
[1] Technically, no. He wasn't from Russia. Because Russia didn't exist during his lifetime. He was from the Soviet Union and died more than 50 years ago. But that's apparently close enough, if you're a virtue signaler targeting innocent people based on where they live.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 19, 2022, 03:50:33 PM
I think to Zelenskies credit, I think he isn't planning on fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian, and is willing to budge on some topics. I think even the separatist regions may be possible to get some sort of compromise with.
Zelensky's an entertainer. A literal, professional entertainer. This has given him a world platform, and the chance to play a heroic role to an audience that's eating that shit up. He's milking it for everything it's got.
But he's gotta know he can't win.
Quote from: Pat on March 19, 2022, 06:45:01 PMZelensky's an entertainer. A literal, professional entertainer.
To understand, the reason why he was elected was the hope that as an entertainer, and not a politician, he would be less corrupt. A 'Normal joe' instead of a insider. Sort of a similar principle like Trump.
I mean Darth Vader (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/31/ukraine-darth-vader-president-internet-party) (Yes that one) got a sizable amount of votes in 2014. A statue of him (https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/darth-vader-statue) stands to this day.
The roads not taken eh?
Quote from: Pat on March 19, 2022, 06:45:01 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 19, 2022, 03:50:33 PM
I think to Zelenskies credit, I think he isn't planning on fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian, and is willing to budge on some topics. I think even the separatist regions may be possible to get some sort of compromise with.
Zelensky's an entertainer. A literal, professional entertainer. This has given him a world platform, and the chance to play a heroic role to an audience that's eating that shit up. He's milking it for everything it's got.
But he's gotta know he can't win.
That depends on how he defines victory. There are many ways to win and many ways to lose.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 20, 2022, 12:27:30 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 19, 2022, 06:45:01 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 19, 2022, 03:50:33 PM
I think to Zelenskies credit, I think he isn't planning on fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian, and is willing to budge on some topics. I think even the separatist regions may be possible to get some sort of compromise with.
Zelensky's an entertainer. A literal, professional entertainer. This has given him a world platform, and the chance to play a heroic role to an audience that's eating that shit up. He's milking it for everything it's got.
But he's gotta know he can't win.
That depends on how he defines victory. There are many ways to win and many ways to lose.
Yeah, the main thing about this is "will the peace result in a Ukraine that can defend itself in the future or not?" Any kind of "demilitarized"/"neutral" Ukraine will be sitting duck. Giving into Russian demands for recognition of Crimean annexation and even additional territorial concessions in the east might have to be borne but Ukraine needs to be able to defend itself going forward.
I see the democratic leader of Ukraine, in exile in Poland, is now suspending opposition parties.
It's a terrible situation for sure. I'm not sure there's a lot of good options for Ukraine. Putin is going to want major concessions or this is going to look like a failure on the world stage (more than it already does). NATO membership is not something Russia will budge on, and I expect they are going to want the separatist regions as well as Crimea. The only thing that Putin may flex on is forcing de-militarization of Ukraine, but if he does I expect that will only be in the context of leaving the door open for another invasion excuse down the line.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 01:48:56 AM
I see the democratic leader of Ukraine, in exile in Poland, is now suspending opposition parties.
Yeah, this is why he's a toad.
Half right. He's evidently still in Ukraine, not Poland. But he did pretty much go full 'emergency powers'.
Tell me more about Ukrainian democracy, comrades. LOL.
Also, saw a pretty funny comment:
'Currently in Ukraine we've got Neo-Nazi militias who obey the orders of their Jewish president doing battle with radical Islamist mercenaries sent in by an Orthodox Christian country, all in the midst of a modern fully digital battlefield. This whole thing is like if you locked Hideo Kojima and Tom Clancy together in a room with a shit ton of cocaine and told them to write a book.'
What is the magic that makes a country corrupt or not? I wish I knew. Why can't Eastern Europe escape corruption and dictators?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 09:45:45 AM
What is the magic that makes a country corrupt or not? I wish I knew. Why can't Eastern Europe escape corruption and dictators?
High degree of social and institutional trust. America inherited it from the Puritans.
Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 10:02:39 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 09:45:45 AM
What is the magic that makes a country corrupt or not? I wish I knew. Why can't Eastern Europe escape corruption and dictators?
High degree of social and institutional trust. America inherited it from the Puritans.
A loooooong time ago. I am not so sure America is not corrupt, and that the duopoly brand of "democracy" practiced in the USA is so different from a dictatorship.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 01:48:56 AM
I see the democratic leader of Ukraine, in exile in Poland, is now suspending opposition parties.
Who is this Kremlin stooge?
Quote from: silencio789 on March 21, 2022, 10:26:05 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 01:48:56 AM
I see the democratic leader of Ukraine, in exile in Poland, is now suspending opposition parties.
Who is this Kremlin stooge?
No idea, maybe we can resurrect McCarthy to track him down??
Lol. I just don't know how many people here would think that was a good or bad idea!
Quote from: silencio789 on March 21, 2022, 11:01:47 AM
Lol. I just don't know how many people here would think that was a good or bad idea!
No telling what sort of nutty shit Revenant McCarthy might latch onto if he were unleashed to find the commies and ruskies now.
Harvard would be fucked.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 10:18:18 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 10:02:39 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 09:45:45 AM
What is the magic that makes a country corrupt or not? I wish I knew. Why can't Eastern Europe escape corruption and dictators?
High degree of social and institutional trust. America inherited it from the Puritans.
A loooooong time ago. I am not so sure America is not corrupt, and that the duopoly brand of "democracy" practiced in the USA is so different from a dictatorship.
Compare the US to virtually any country in Latin America. It's night and day.
America has problems, especially with the growth of central government and the bureaucratic state, and the ensuing rise of cronyism. But it remains far freer of corruption than almost the entirety of the rest of the world, and this is one of its enduring competitive advantages.
Yeah, the USA is a different animal. When you see a real depth of corruption, the system cycles into this endless despair. Once a people have given up (upper and lower levels), then its awful.
For all the USAs faults, its not like that.
Quote from: silencio789 on March 21, 2022, 11:01:47 AM
Lol. I just don't know how many people here would think that was a good or bad idea!
Hard to say. Something you'll never hear regarding McCarthy: 'But were there communists in the State Department?'.
Because, per the Venona project... yes. Yes there were.
Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:34:50 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 10:18:18 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 10:02:39 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 09:45:45 AM
What is the magic that makes a country corrupt or not? I wish I knew. Why can't Eastern Europe escape corruption and dictators?
High degree of social and institutional trust. America inherited it from the Puritans.
A loooooong time ago. I am not so sure America is not corrupt, and that the duopoly brand of "democracy" practiced in the USA is so different from a dictatorship.
Compare the US to virtually any country in Latin America. It's night and day.
America has problems, especially with the growth of central government and the bureaucratic state, and the ensuing rise of cronyism. But it remains far freer of corruption than almost the entirety of the rest of the world, and this is one of its enduring competitive advantages.
But I think that is only because the lower end of the pyramid are not aware, or get enough tv and snacks to not care, of how bad the corruption is at the top end. Lots of places they do know how bad it is, so it turns into a well, if they are doing dirt, I might as well get what I can while I can. I think the USA is not too far, especially if it gets a major event (dollar collapse...), from turning that same corner. Lots of those countries have their corruption start from the USA as well, money to do what the USA wants, and maybe not always in the best interests of its citizens. So if the USA tends to be the root of that problem....
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 11:41:13 AM
Yeah, the USA is a different animal. When you see a real depth of corruption, the system cycles into this endless despair. Once a people have given up (upper and lower levels), then its awful.
For all the USAs faults, its not like that.
I agree, but that is because the lower levels do not see just how bad it really is at the upper levels. The USA would need a period of real hardship for that to come to light, once it does I expect a shitstorm and all sorts of insanity regarding how much people adhere to any value in the rule of law regarding corruption.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 12:07:46 PMI agree, but that is because the lower levels do not see just how bad it really is at the upper levels.
No, its still a different padagrim shift. Im not a fan of democracy, but its still a much deeper degree of corruption in one state systems.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 01:48:56 AM
I see the democratic leader of Ukraine, in exile in Poland, is now suspending opposition parties.
1) He's in Ukraine, not Poland, and 2) He suspended only the ones with direct ties to Russia.
You just continue to repeat the party line, comrade. I mean, don't you even pause for a moment and wonder why you just quoted two factoids put out by the FSB online, both of which were inaccurate in meaningful ways? I mean the first claim about Poland was direct from Russian State Duma Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin in a Telegram message on Friday. That was literally the source of your "information" which turned out to be patently false.
Seriously, do you EVER question, for even a moment, if the Russian propaganda machine that's been in operation for years and is working overtime now, might just be the sources you're reading? You look like a Russian Commie toadie when you do this.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 21, 2022, 09:01:13 AM
Half right. He's evidently still in Ukraine, not Poland.
If you believe the picture projected on to green screen.
Quote from: silencio789 on March 21, 2022, 10:26:05 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 01:48:56 AM
I see the democratic leader of Ukraine, in exile in Poland, is now suspending opposition parties.
Who is this Kremlin stooge?
Some call me.....Tim
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 03:50:24 PM
Quote from: silencio789 on March 21, 2022, 10:26:05 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 01:48:56 AM
I see the democratic leader of Ukraine, in exile in Poland, is now suspending opposition parties.
Who is this Kremlin stooge?
Some call me.....Tim
I thought you were going to say Al.
I will say Shasarak, you do seem to get some sort of kick out of Ukraines misfortune.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 04:27:00 PM
I will say Shasarak, you do seem to get some sort of kick out of Ukraines misfortune.
It's long been established that Shasarak uses plain black text for sarcasm/irony. Once you realize that, everything they say makes much more sense.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 21, 2022, 04:31:11 PMIt's long been established that Shasarak uses plain black text for sarcasm/irony. Once you realize that, everything they say makes much more sense.
Whats the irony that a counter offensive to protect where my family members live may not exist? Those Ukrainians sure are hypocritical with their propaganda? That the situation is even more desparate and more people will die?
Its ironic that Ukraines existance was always so unstable that now its being shelled? Do the people living there DESERVE it? Is that the irony?
Apologies that the western news outlets purport Ukraine to be a flawless bastion, when it isn't. Ukraine has nuclear plants, a presence or neo-nazis, and a bio research lab. 'Just gawd damn'.
'Your apartment is burning down but did you know your landlord was a drug dealer? Just god damn!'
I don't think Shasarak is a stooge or whatever, I think he is just getting his kicks from the situation.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 21, 2022, 04:31:11 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 04:27:00 PM
I will say Shasarak, you do seem to get some sort of kick out of Ukraines misfortune.
It's long been established that Shasarak uses plain black text for sarcasm/irony. Once you realize that, everything they say makes much more sense.
You keep saying this and I kept thinking it was a joke. I am no longer thinking it's a joke. In which case, your last sentence is entirely correct. I think I just need to take your advice.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 04:27:00 PM
I will say Shasarak, you do seem to get some sort of kick out of Ukraines misfortune.
The more I learn about the Ukraine the more amazed I am.
Did you know that the Ukraine is the only country that actually became poorer after Communism?
They actually found a system of government that was worse then Communism.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 04:57:21 PM
'Your apartment is burning down but did you know your landlord was a drug dealer? Just god damn!'
Its more like your apartment burning down so you issue military equipment to the local drug dealer who was just released from prison.
You could not write fiction like this because no one would believe it.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 05:52:36 PMDid you know that the Ukraine is the only country that actually became poorer after Communism?
When your so poor 10% of your population starves to death because all the food was confiscated because the USSR impliments land reforms that don't work, almost everything is a step up from that.
In addition, its also just factually incorrect.
Your just kinda an asshole who relishes the suffering of others.
Ukraine GDP:
1990: 81 Billion USD
1992: 72 Billion USD
1994: 52 Billion USD
1996: 44 Billion USD
But hey, I am the factually incorrect Arsehole that relishes the suffering of others.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 06:15:23 PMBut hey, I am the factually incorrect Arsehole that relishes the suffering of others.
Yes. It became poorer for a period of time (https://data.un.org/Data.aspx?q=Ukraine+gdp&d=SNAAMA&f=grID%3a101%3bcurrID%3aUSD%3bpcFlag%3a1%3bcrID%3a804), wasn't the only state to become poorer (Georgia (https://data.un.org/Data.aspx?q=georgia+gdp&d=SNAAMA&f=grID%3a101%3bcurrID%3aUSD%3bpcFlag%3a1%3bcrID%3a268)was one for example, as did many others, like even Russia).
Its almost like the collapse of a totalitarian government with corrupt institutions didn't allow for most nations to transform into functional states overnight (or at all).
So what you said is both misleading, and literally innacurate.
You are just an asshole that relishes the suffering of others.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 06:15:23 PM
Ukraine GDP:
1990: 81 Billion USD
1992: 72 Billion USD
1994: 52 Billion USD
1996: 44 Billion USD
But hey, I am the factually incorrect Arsehole that relishes the suffering of others.
Post comparative GDPs of other former Soviet client-states and the Warsaw Pact.
Greetings!
Very real Nazis being *crushed* by the Red Army, marching victoriously on Berlin!
Seeing this makes me light up a cigar joyfully in celebration.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 06:15:23 PM
But hey, I am the factually incorrect Arsehole that relishes the suffering of others.
The first step is acknowledging it.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 06:15:23 PM
Ukraine GDP:
1990: 81 Billion USD
1992: 72 Billion USD
1994: 52 Billion USD
1996: 44 Billion USD
But hey, I am the factually incorrect Arsehole that relishes the suffering of others.
*posts evidence of a declining trend
*does not show trend after that
(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/ukraine-gdp.png?s=ukrainegdp&projection=te&v=202107132317V20220312&d1=19720403)
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 22, 2022, 03:22:43 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 06:15:23 PM
Ukraine GDP:
1990: 81 Billion USD
1992: 72 Billion USD
1994: 52 Billion USD
1996: 44 Billion USD
But hey, I am the factually incorrect Arsehole that relishes the suffering of others.
*posts evidence of a declining trend
*does not show trend after that
(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/ukraine-gdp.png?s=ukrainegdp&projection=te&v=202107132317V20220312&d1=19720403)
For comparison, here's the GDP of Belarus, which also declined between the fall of communism and 2001.
(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/belarus-gdp@2x.png?s=belarusgdp&projection=te&v=202107132317V20220312&d1=19220416)
I believe that disproves Shasarak's claim that "Ukraine is the only country that actually became poorer after Communism".
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 22, 2022, 03:22:43 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 06:15:23 PM
Ukraine GDP:
1990: 81 Billion USD
1992: 72 Billion USD
1994: 52 Billion USD
1996: 44 Billion USD
But hey, I am the factually incorrect Arsehole that relishes the suffering of others.
*posts evidence of a declining trend
*does not show trend after that
(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/ukraine-gdp.png?s=ukrainegdp&projection=te&v=202107132317V20220312&d1=19720403)
You really only started to see the shift in the right direction from just before the Orange Revolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution), and while it has been improving there is yet room to improve. The neo-Robber Barons of the Post Soviet era did get their claws into the means of production but, a lot of land became available so that anyone that could get a loan of some kind could afford a piece of property. Those that studied the right subjects in school were able to find increasingly better paying jobs.
Ukraines post USSR dip was one of the strongest, and recovery one of the most anemic.
So It didn't do all that great.
So why make up more problems then actually exist for an already beleaguered state unless your just in it for kicks?
QuoteI see the democratic leader of Ukraine, in exile in Poland, is now suspending opposition parties.
A. If he's on exile, which I doubt then quite surely not in Poland.
B. Based. That's what you do with opposition doing freaking war waged on your territory. Especially opposition that was pro-alliance with your current enemy.
QuoteWhat is the magic that makes a country corrupt or not? I wish I knew. Why can't Eastern Europe escape corruption and dictators?
No country can really escape corruption. Dictators? I mean war dictatorship was common in Republics, it's not really comparable to full-time dictatorship. For now I doubt VZ has enough mojo to become Ukrainian Lukashenko after war, if he survives. I mean Baltic and Balkan states are now poor but free of dictatorshop.
Ukrainian border guards are biologists. ;-)
'You're a Guy... Go to War' – Fleeing Ukrainian Trans Woman Turned Back at Border (https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/03/23/youre-a-guy-go-to-war-fleeing-ukrainian-trans-woman-turned-back-at-border/)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 06:32:27 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 06:15:23 PMBut hey, I am the factually incorrect Arsehole that relishes the suffering of others.
Yes. It became poorer for a period of time (https://data.un.org/Data.aspx?q=Ukraine+gdp&d=SNAAMA&f=grID%3a101%3bcurrID%3aUSD%3bpcFlag%3a1%3bcrID%3a804), wasn't the only state to become poorer (Georgia (https://data.un.org/Data.aspx?q=georgia+gdp&d=SNAAMA&f=grID%3a101%3bcurrID%3aUSD%3bpcFlag%3a1%3bcrID%3a268)was one for example, as did many others, like even Russia).
Its almost like the collapse of a totalitarian government with corrupt institutions didn't allow for most nations to transform into functional states overnight (or at all).
So what you said is both misleading, and literally innacurate.
You are just an asshole that relishes the suffering of others.
Yeah, exiting Stalinism was a big economic shock that created decreased living standards for a time throughout nearly all of the old Eastern Bloc. There was a real lost opportunity for a Marshall Plan-type initiative to help Eastern Europe transition out of command economies. That would've saved so many headaches later on, so much of Putin's popularity in Russia is built on a backlash against Yeltsin-era fuckery and we're seeing the damage that that's done right now.
Pro-Russian Propaganda off of Telegram:
Make of it what you will...
(http://dxczjjuegupb.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Selection_237.jpg)
Quote from: Jaeger on March 24, 2022, 07:51:20 PMMake of it what you will...
Well they are calling 'Civilian Housing' as 'Military Infrastructure' which is true from a certain point of view.
At this point they can't really win, even if they sieze Kiev. Ukraine has a hostile population, united by one of the strongest unifiers: hatred.
This is from the Jamestown foundation Twitter feed.
Make of that what you will.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOj-ttGWQAM_PMz?format=jpg&name=small)
Blue arrows, Ukrainian forces.
The red in the pocket; about 10k russian soldiers.
Don't worry Ukraine, the US will save you!
Quote from: Selective Service @SSS_gov, March 23, 2022In the event of a draft, our agency would partner with @fema to provide opportunities to conscientious objectors to ensure our nation keeps moving forward. Learn more about Alternative Service at https://sss.gov/conscientious-objectors/
https://twitter.com/SSS_gov/status/1506677659182551040
Quote from: Pat on March 25, 2022, 07:30:39 AM
Don't worry Ukraine, the US will save you!
Quote from: Selective Service @SSS_gov, March 23, 2022In the event of a draft, our agency would partner with @fema to provide opportunities to conscientious objectors to ensure our nation keeps moving forward. Learn more about Alternative Service at https://sss.gov/conscientious-objectors/
https://twitter.com/SSS_gov/status/1506677659182551040
LOL. I'm sure they would.
A draft would be a really fast way to find out if there could be a civil war in the USA.
So Russia is "deporting" en mass Ukrainian civilians to Russia, and starting Soviet-style purges in Russia of anyone suspected of opposing the war.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 26, 2022, 01:28:12 PM
So Russia is "deporting" en mass Ukrainian civilians to Russia.
Better then bombing them I suppose. Assuming there is any sort of plan of taking care of them. Small mercy I suppose.
I do doubt that they are being directly deported as much as 'Go to Russia or die here'. Which...In practice is about the same thing. I think they are going willingly under duress.....Which again is worthless.
This confirms to me that Putin sees Ukrainians as serfs effectively. I guess plan D is scatter Ukrainians into Russia as to remove any sense of belonging or national identity to the region.
Its evil, but at least a step up from 'Murder you till they submit'.
Tom Cruise has really let himself go:
The prospect of a war with Ukraine is bringing out every totalitarian regime in the world.
And of course Biden told the 82nd airborne in Poland that they're going to the Ukraine:
https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1507386975753494533
It's a gaffe. Biden didn't mean to say "when you're there". The White House cleanup team was quick to clarify it wasn't a change in policy. ("The president has been clear we are not sending US troops to Ukraine and there is no change in that position." (https://nypost.com/2022/03/25/joe-biden-says-us-troops-will-be-in-ukraine-in-apparent-gaffe/))
But it's still really bad. Given Harris' unending string of gaffes, and Pelosi's stumbling and unraveling (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRQ9pRydHsc), the US has people who project weakness and incompetence not just in the presidency, but one and two heartbeats away.
Bidens 'gaffs' are really shit. If Biden tells Putin that him stepping down is a must, he will try to tighten his grip on Ukraine. No walkbacks.
Anyway, 32 days eh? I know its not been 'flawless', but I very much doubt things are going to plan A, B, or even C for Russia. Lasting for 32 days against Russia (even if its because of Russias incompitence, and Western support), is really impressive for Ukraine. They have already achieved an A rank in this arcane mode so to speak.
I saw a video explaining how Ukraine and Russia are much more evenly matched then its imagined. Because most of Russias funds generally go into projects that don't help them in Ukraine. And the ones they do are extremly expensive for the result.
Russia did not optimize their army for this invasion, while Ukraine optimized theirs for defense since 2014.
I feel so proud for once of my genetic homeland!
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 12:28:52 PM
And of course Biden told the 82nd airborne in Poland that they're going to the Ukraine:
https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1507386975753494533
It's a gaffe. Biden didn't mean to say "when you're there". The White House cleanup team was quick to clarify it wasn't a change in policy. ("The president has been clear we are not sending US troops to Ukraine and there is no change in that position." (https://nypost.com/2022/03/25/joe-biden-says-us-troops-will-be-in-ukraine-in-apparent-gaffe/))
But it's still really bad. Given Harris' unending string of gaffes, and Pelosi's stumbling and unraveling (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRQ9pRydHsc), the US has people who project weakness and incompetence not just in the presidency, but one and two heartbeats away.
Trump when asked on Meet the Press to name his foreign policy advisers:
"Well I really watch the shows. You really see a lot of great, you know, when you watch your show and all of the other shows, and you have the generals and you have certain people that you like."
And then when pressed on the question, Trump named two people. The second one was retired colonel Jacobs. Which was news to Jacobs, who said, "I know him. But I'm not a consultant. I'm not certain if he has a national security group of people. I don't know if he does or if he doesn't. If he does, I'm not one of them."
During the same interview, Trump basically said he doesn't give a shit if Ukraine is admitted to NATO or not:
"I would not care that much to be honest with you. Whether it goes in or doesn't go in, I wouldn't care. If it goes in, great. If it doesn't go in, great."
When these things happened you didn't say dick about it Pat. But Biden makes a flub to some troops, an obviously flub, and you're all Hur Hur Hur look at this stupid thing Biden said.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 27, 2022, 02:21:45 PMWhen these things happened you didn't say dick about it Pat. But Biden makes a flub to some troops, an obviously flub, and you're all Hur Hur Hur look at this stupid thing Biden said.
Well assuming Putin watches these flubs, it absolutely aggrevates the situation. While Trump is a dick, his statements did not.
This isn't forgetting the name of a political figure, or your policies. Its publicly calling for punishment of a leader known for being paranoid and vindictive.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 27, 2022, 02:27:09 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 27, 2022, 02:21:45 PMWhen these things happened you didn't say dick about it Pat. But Biden makes a flub to some troops, an obviously flub, and you're all Hur Hur Hur look at this stupid thing Biden said.
Well assuming Putin watches these flubs, it absolutely aggrevates the situation. While Trump is a dick, his statements did not.
This isn't forgetting the name of a political figure, or your policies. Its publicly calling for punishment of a leader known for being paranoid and vindictive.
You think Trump saying as he's running for President that he doesn't give a crap if Ukraine joins NATO or not had no impact on Russian decisions?
You think Trump saying he cares so little about foreign policy that he thinks the question is about his shows and he cannot really recall who his advisers might be on foreign policy (and gets it wrong at that), oh and we shouldn't be funding NATO, that all that didn't aggravate the situation in Russia regarding their plans for Ukraine?
You think Trump's campaign manager Paul Manafort, who had advised the monumentally corrupt Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych who advocated that his country distance itself from the West and align more closely Russia, that had no impact on Russia's decisions? That Trump then pardoning Manafort after it came out Manafort had in fact taken a $12.7M bribe from Yanukovych, that had no impact on Russia's decisions?
SERIOUSLY? You think Biden flubbing a comment to some troops in an obvious manner had more meaningful impact on Russian decisions than all that stuff Trump did when Russia was planning their approach to Ukraine in the first place?
Quote from: Mistwell on March 27, 2022, 03:39:39 PMYou think Trump saying as he's running for President that he doesn't give a crap if Ukraine joins NATO or not had no impact on Russian decisions?
Not to the same degree - no. And if anything, delayed Putins attempt to annex Ukraine. Because attempting annexation now was out of a desparate move to deny Ukraine to even attempt at entering NATO.
After 2014 Ukraine was broken and humiliated. Loosing territory without a single shot (partly because the Obama administration promised aid it never gave and demanded Ukraine not attack), with a high amount of desertion/treason on the side of the Ukrainian navy. Russia does not see Ukraine as a threat to itself. And with hindsight sees NATO as a threat to its dreams of a Russian empire of slavic states, rather then a true fear of an invading force.
Had Trump been a hardliner like Biden, Putin might have been aggrevated earlier, and Ukraine would not have had the time to prepare and restructure its internal defensive forces. Putin is a risky and petty player.
To put it in perspective, when an TV announcer in Georgia bad talked Putin, Putin cut off ALL travel to Georgia until that man was punished. That is how petty Putin is. So calling him a doody head influences his thinking more then strategic geopolitical plays. The fact he was willing to soak sanctions for the conqust of an economically worthless territory like crimea is evidence of that.
QuotePaul Manafort, who had advised the monumentally corrupt Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych
Literally all Ukrainian officials are corrupt and act as pawns for one foriegn power or another. At the time, when there was a belief that Russia would treat Ukraine with more respect then the EU or the west, the general rising belief at the time was that this was the best thing to do.
Il give credit to the Biden/NATO administration. They probably triggered Putin into a war when Ukraine was the most prepared it could be and Russia was the least prepared it could be. But this was a trigger the west pushed for, and Ukraine is paying for now.
So we are blaming this one Trump now? I guess that is one way to cope with buyer's remorse on Biden.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 27, 2022, 09:10:34 PM
So we are blaming this one Trump now? I guess that is one way to cope with buyer's remorse on Biden.
Not blaming it on Trump. Pointing out freaking out about Biden flubbing a line to some troops is absurd relative to things people didn't freak out about with Trump.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 27, 2022, 02:21:45 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 12:28:52 PM
And of course Biden told the 82nd airborne in Poland that they're going to the Ukraine:
https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1507386975753494533
It's a gaffe. Biden didn't mean to say "when you're there". The White House cleanup team was quick to clarify it wasn't a change in policy. ("The president has been clear we are not sending US troops to Ukraine and there is no change in that position." (https://nypost.com/2022/03/25/joe-biden-says-us-troops-will-be-in-ukraine-in-apparent-gaffe/))
But it's still really bad. Given Harris' unending string of gaffes, and Pelosi's stumbling and unraveling (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRQ9pRydHsc), the US has people who project weakness and incompetence not just in the presidency, but one and two heartbeats away.
Trump when asked on Meet the Press to name his foreign policy advisers:
"Well I really watch the shows. You really see a lot of great, you know, when you watch your show and all of the other shows, and you have the generals and you have certain people that you like."
And then when pressed on the question, Trump named two people. The second one was retired colonel Jacobs. Which was news to Jacobs, who said, "I know him. But I'm not a consultant. I'm not certain if he has a national security group of people. I don't know if he does or if he doesn't. If he does, I'm not one of them."
During the same interview, Trump basically said he doesn't give a shit if Ukraine is admitted to NATO or not:
"I would not care that much to be honest with you. Whether it goes in or doesn't go in, I wouldn't care. If it goes in, great. If it doesn't go in, great."
When these things happened you didn't say dick about it Pat. But Biden makes a flub to some troops, an obviously flub, and you're all Hur Hur Hur look at this stupid thing Biden said.
I never heard that story, and anyway it's not equivalent. Claiming to know some rando and saying he doesn't care who's admitted to an alliance != telling troops they're going to a warzone when half the media and the political elites seem to be pushing toward a major war barely after the US got out of the last one.
Plus, I said it was a gaffe. I emphasized it was just a gaffe, and that he clearly didn't mean it. Are you completely unaware that gaffe and flub are synonyms?
So fuck off. This is why people hate you. Not your politics.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 27, 2022, 03:39:39 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 27, 2022, 02:27:09 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 27, 2022, 02:21:45 PMWhen these things happened you didn't say dick about it Pat. But Biden makes a flub to some troops, an obviously flub, and you're all Hur Hur Hur look at this stupid thing Biden said.
Well assuming Putin watches these flubs, it absolutely aggrevates the situation. While Trump is a dick, his statements did not.
This isn't forgetting the name of a political figure, or your policies. Its publicly calling for punishment of a leader known for being paranoid and vindictive.
You think Trump saying as he's running for President that he doesn't give a crap if Ukraine joins NATO or not had no impact on Russian decisions?
You think Trump saying he cares so little about foreign policy that he thinks the question is about his shows and he cannot really recall who his advisers might be on foreign policy (and gets it wrong at that), oh and we shouldn't be funding NATO, that all that didn't aggravate the situation in Russia regarding their plans for Ukraine?
You think Trump's campaign manager Paul Manafort, who had advised the monumentally corrupt Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych who advocated that his country distance itself from the West and align more closely Russia, that had no impact on Russia's decisions? That Trump then pardoning Manafort after it came out Manafort had in fact taken a $12.7M bribe from Yanukovych, that had no impact on Russia's decisions?
SERIOUSLY? You think Biden flubbing a comment to some troops in an obvious manner had more meaningful impact on Russian decisions than all that stuff Trump did when Russia was planning their approach to Ukraine in the first place?
Oh, so this quote by Trump didn't even happen when he was president? You're taking a statement by someone who isn't in office and is barely being covered by most of the news,
and you're pretending that has as much effect on policy as the Commander-in-Chief speaking officially to troops one country away from a potential warzone?
Yep. This is why people hate you.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 27, 2022, 09:21:29 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 27, 2022, 09:10:34 PM
So we are blaming this one Trump now? I guess that is one way to cope with buyer's remorse on Biden.
Not blaming it on Trump. Pointing out freaking out about Biden flubbing a line to some troops is absurd relative to things people didn't freak out about with Trump.
Pointing to the gaffe/flub while saying it's a gaffe/flub isn't the same as freaking out so...
Why are YOU freaking out when someone points at a clear gaffe and says it's a clear gaffe?
More Biden:
https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1507779051406213139
"For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power" is a direct call for a regime change in Russia. Some pundits, (https://twitter.com/LarrySabato/status/1507773634655526914) including ones from the Washington Post (https://twitter.com/JRubinBlogger/status/1507772463442276355) and senior foreign policy officials (https://twitter.com/apmassaro3/status/1507780529327951878) have have compared it to Reagan's "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" speech in 1987 at Brandenberg Gate in Berlin.
Though of course there's a minor difference between calling for a foreign leader to take an action, and calling for a foreign leader to be deposed.
And then, of course of course, the White House denied he meant it. "The President's point was that Putin cannot be allowed to exercise power over his neighbors or the region. He was not discussing Putin's power in Russia, or regime change." (https://twitter.com/tparti/status/1507783745864192006)
Biden keeps making off-the-cuff remarks that make it sound like the US is going to war, while his handlers keep backpedaling. Is this the political brinksmanship of dementia?
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 08:19:52 AM
More Biden:
https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1507779051406213139
"For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power" is a direct call for a regime change in Russia. Some pundits, (https://twitter.com/LarrySabato/status/1507773634655526914) including ones from the Washington Post (https://twitter.com/JRubinBlogger/status/1507772463442276355) and senior foreign policy officials (https://twitter.com/apmassaro3/status/1507780529327951878) have have compared it to Reagan's "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" speech in 1987 at Brandenberg Gate in Berlin.
Though of course there's a minor difference between calling for a foreign leader to take an action, and calling for a foreign leader to be deposed.
And then, of course of course, the White House denied he meant it. "The President's point was that Putin cannot be allowed to exercise power over his neighbors or the region. He was not discussing Putin's power in Russia, or regime change." (https://twitter.com/tparti/status/1507783745864192006)
Biden keeps making off-the-cuff remarks that make it sound like the US is going to war, while his handlers keep backpedaling. Is this the political brinksmanship of dementia?
Dementia.
Look, just go watch videos of Biden from five, ten, or twenty years ago, and compare them to now.
The man is not well. I really wonder how they're propping him up; the pharmaceutical cocktail used must be insane.
The next time you see the senile old meat-puppet Biden ranting about Russian barbarity in Ukraine and acting like his own shit don't stink, look at this footage of him proudly bragging that it was his own idea to bomb civilian infrastructure in Serbia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVmguzRujA
His comment about how it was his idea to bomb bridges led directly to this atrocity on the Grdelica:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF2LeXQNmus
There are other videos but some are age-restricted, presumably because corpses burned so badly they fused with the train carriage make for gruesome viewing. If you're old enough, you may remember that the Pentagon was caught speeding up the gun camera footage to reinforce its lie that the bombing was an accident. I might have accepted that it was an accident had not, as is so often the case, the attempted coverup proved otherwise.
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, because they "don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
https://www.adl.org/blog/why-is-putin-calling-the-ukrainian-government-a-bunch-of-nazis
Edit: Accidentally included two extra words in the quote ("because they"). Fixed.
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
https://www.adl.org/blog/why-is-putin-calling-the-ukrainian-government-a-bunch-of-nazis
Oh look, Pat blatantly lies about what's in the link. Gosh, what a shock!
What they actually said:
"This propaganda isn't new. Russia has for years highlighted the activity of a marginal group of Ukrainian ultra-nationalists as a way of trying to stigmatize all of Ukraine. Yes, some members of these ultra-nationalist groups have used Nazi insignia, made Hitler salutes, and used antisemitic rhetoric, but they are politically insignificant and in no way representative of Ukraine. The political parties which the ultra-nationalists support received just over 2 percent of the vote in the 2019 elections. Ukraine is a flawed democracy, but unquestionably a democracy, and in no way a Nazi regime."
Pretty shitty behavior there Pat. Nobody else will call you on it though. You're on the politically correct side on this topic so nobody else will call you out for unethical behavior like that.
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
Yeah this is a misqoute. The ADF has enough internal corruption to not need things made up about it.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 28, 2022, 11:48:11 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
https://www.adl.org/blog/why-is-putin-calling-the-ukrainian-government-a-bunch-of-nazis
Oh look, Pat blatantly lies about what's in the link. Gosh, what a shock!
What they actually said:
"This propaganda isn't new. Russia has for years highlighted the activity of a marginal group of Ukrainian ultra-nationalists as a way of trying to stigmatize all of Ukraine. Yes, some members of these ultra-nationalist groups have used Nazi insignia, made Hitler salutes, and used antisemitic rhetoric, but they are politically insignificant and in no way representative of Ukraine. The political parties which the ultra-nationalists support received just over 2 percent of the vote in the 2019 elections. Ukraine is a flawed democracy, but unquestionably a democracy, and in no way a Nazi regime."
Pretty shitty behavior there Pat. Nobody else will call you on it though. You're on the politically correct side on this topic so nobody else will call you out for unethical behavior like that.
Lied? That's a direct quote from the concluding paragraph of the interview, and it highlights the key point where the ADL diverged from their basic principles.
Your quote is about Ukraine overall. And think about what you just said. There were a couple hundred neo-Nazis and pseudo-Nazis in Charlottesville half a decade ago, and that's still trotted out as the only evidence that Nazism is a surging problem in the US. Saying that only 2% of the people voted for a party that celebrates someone who, during WW2, advocated for exterminating the Jews, is an absolutely staggering number by comparison. Nor is it relevant that Putin is using it for propaganda. Again, that's a given, and it's not particularly remarkable. What's remarkable is the ADL published an apologia for Nazism in the Ukraine.
Once again, it's you who's the liar.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 12:00:18 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
Yeah this is a misqoute. The ADF has enough internal corruption to not need things made up about it.
It's a direct quote. Read the last paragraph.
People are actually defending Biden by saying "but Trump!" Still?
Trump sure said and continues to say moronic stuff. Biden? "Hold my beer"
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 08:19:52 AM
More Biden:
https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1507779051406213139
"For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power" is a direct call for a regime change in Russia. Some pundits, (https://twitter.com/LarrySabato/status/1507773634655526914) including ones from the Washington Post (https://twitter.com/JRubinBlogger/status/1507772463442276355) and senior foreign policy officials (https://twitter.com/apmassaro3/status/1507780529327951878) have have compared it to Reagan's "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" speech in 1987 at Brandenberg Gate in Berlin.
Though of course there's a minor difference between calling for a foreign leader to take an action, and calling for a foreign leader to be deposed.
And then, of course of course, the White House denied he meant it. "The President's point was that Putin cannot be allowed to exercise power over his neighbors or the region. He was not discussing Putin's power in Russia, or regime change." (https://twitter.com/tparti/status/1507783745864192006)
Biden keeps making off-the-cuff remarks that make it sound like the US is going to war, while his handlers keep backpedaling. Is this the political brinksmanship of dementia?
President Biden's positions don't represent the Biden
Regime Administration...
So, with who should the American people talk? Who put that person/s in power, to whom are they accountable and how can the American People remove them from power?
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:15:11 PMYour quote is about Ukraine overall. And think about what you just said. There were a couple hundred neo-Nazis and pseudo-Nazis in Charlottesville half a decade ago, and that's still trotted out as the only evidence that Nazism is a surging problem in the US. Saying that only 2% of the people voted for a party that celebrates someone who, during WW2, advocated for exterminating the Jews, is an absolutely staggering number by comparison. Nor is it relevant that Putin is using it for propaganda. Again, that's a given, and it's not particularly remarkable. What's remarkable is the ADL published an apologia for Nazism in the Ukraine.
I will agree to this. Its the moral flexibility of it, while being ridgid at other times. The ADL is a joke.
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 12:00:18 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
Yeah this is a misqoute. The ADF has enough internal corruption to not need things made up about it.
It's a direct quote. Read the last paragraph.
The last paragraph:
"There are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, just as there are in the U.S., and in Russia for that matter. But they are a very marginal group with no political influence and who don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions in Ukraine. Putin's propaganda is so far from the truth that it doesn't survive the first contact with even a little knowledge."
Show me where the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "
because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions". Cause that's not at all what that paragraph is saying. That was them responding to the allegation that they're identical to WW2 Nazis, not why they are defending Ukraine. Which you knew, you liar.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:15:11 PMYour quote is about Ukraine overall. And think about what you just said. There were a couple hundred neo-Nazis and pseudo-Nazis in Charlottesville half a decade ago, and that's still trotted out as the only evidence that Nazism is a surging problem in the US. Saying that only 2% of the people voted for a party that celebrates someone who, during WW2, advocated for exterminating the Jews, is an absolutely staggering number by comparison. Nor is it relevant that Putin is using it for propaganda. Again, that's a given, and it's not particularly remarkable. What's remarkable is the ADL published an apologia for Nazism in the Ukraine.
I will agree to this. Its the moral flexibility of it, while being ridgid at other times. The ADL is a joke.
\
They didn't do any such thing. But no shock we have another fucking liar around here about these kinds of things. As long as it justifies your agenda, I guess anything is excusable?
Quote from: Mistwell on March 28, 2022, 04:14:33 PMThey didn't do any such thing. But no shock we have another fucking liar around here about these kinds of things. As long as it justifies your agenda, I guess anything is excusable?
If it where any other situation, the ADL would still be calling it inexcusable. And yes, what Pat said is accurate, and I have plenty of fights with him as well (and engaged in name-calling sometimes). We don't share an agenda.
Ukraine could have neo-nazi day, and it wouldn't excuse what Russia is doing, nor does Putin care. "De-nazification" is one of the first things he dropped as a talking point during discussions.
What the ADL is saying now is reasonable. To say Ukraine a nazi country is ludicrist. But that hasn't stopped the ADL from applying its completly inconsistent standards onto everything else. Right now it has backed off its normal "No Excuse for Nazism" angles, and has engaged in excuses. And excuses are apologia. And as an example of its apologia is saying because they have not made any moves. So yes Pat is accurate.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 28, 2022, 04:13:07 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 12:00:18 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
Yeah this is a misqoute. The ADF has enough internal corruption to not need things made up about it.
It's a direct quote. Read the last paragraph.
The last paragraph:
"There are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, just as there are in the U.S., and in Russia for that matter. But they are a very marginal group with no political influence and who don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions in Ukraine. Putin's propaganda is so far from the truth that it doesn't survive the first contact with even a little knowledge."
Show me where the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions". Cause that's not at all what that paragraph is saying. That was them responding to the allegation that they're identical to WW2 Nazis, not why they are defending Ukraine. Which you knew, you liar.
Do you have reading comprehension issues, or are you so desperate to call me a liar that you'll ignore the plain text of a document?
The ADL published an interview, which is an apologia for Nazis in the Ukraine. It makes ridiculous assertions, like pretending 2% of the vote shows they're irrelevant, when those kinds of numbers would be staggering anywhere else on the globe. They're falsely equating this with the US, which has to stretch to come up with even a few hundred genuine Nazis. And in the concluding paragraph, which summarizes their position, they repeat the claim the Nazis are just a marginal fringe, which they've been asserting the entire article, and then throw in a second justification: That they're not attacking Jews.
This is plain to read for anyone.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 04:23:53 PM
What the ADL is saying now is reasonable. To say Ukraine a nazi country is ludicrist. But that hasn't stopped the ADL from applying its completly inconsistent standards onto everything else. Right now it has backed off its normal "No Excuse for Nazism" angles, and has engaged in excuses. And excuses are apologia. And as an example of its apologia is saying because they have not made any moves. So yes Pat is accurate.
So what you're claiming is both:
(A) What the ADL is saying now is reasonable.
(B) The ADL published an apologia for Nazism in the Ukraine.
Do I have that right?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 04:23:53 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 28, 2022, 04:14:33 PMThey didn't do any such thing. But no shock we have another fucking liar around here about these kinds of things. As long as it justifies your agenda, I guess anything is excusable?
If it where any other situation, the ADL would still be calling it inexcusable. And yes, what Pat said is accurate, and I have plenty of fights with him as well (and engaged in name-calling sometimes). We don't share an agenda.
Ukraine could have neo-nazi day, and it wouldn't excuse what Russia is doing, nor does Putin care. "De-nazification" is one of the first things he dropped as a talking point during discussions.
What the ADL is saying now is reasonable. To say Ukraine a nazi country is ludicrist. But that hasn't stopped the ADL from applying its completly inconsistent standards onto everything else. Right now it has backed off its normal "No Excuse for Nazism" angles, and has engaged in excuses. And excuses are apologia. And as an example of its apologia is saying because they have not made any moves. So yes Pat is accurate.
Yes, there's a lot of room for nuance. Ukraine isn't a Nazi country, because there aren't any of those in the world. But the Ukraine does have a Nazi problem. And it's not just a far right nationalist problem, because it has roots in the Nazi-aligned groups in the country during WW2, and they still idolize Stepan Bandera, who at least once called for the extermination of Jews. They still use the insignia, and this is all linked to the blood & soil movement and flag. You could argue how Nazi it is, which is valid. These aren't 1940s-era SS troops. But they draw far too much from the Nazis for comfort.
The ADL not calling all that out, and instead just brushing it all off as Russia propaganda, is truly bizarre. To mistitle the most famous book by that guy who groped Connie Willis,
I Have No Principles and Must Virtue Signal. They're mindlessly adopting the current narrative, even though it goes against their founding standards.
On the other hand, Putin is just using it as an excuse. You don't invade a country to deal with a extremist minority. But Nazi is a scare word, that can be used to justify almost anything. This is no different than China saying oh, it's the US who is really racist after the George Floyd insurrection while gleefully genociding the Uyghurs. But the ADL trying to debunk that by ignoring a real Nazi problem? Wow.
Quote from: jhkim on March 28, 2022, 05:37:57 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 04:23:53 PM
What the ADL is saying now is reasonable. To say Ukraine a nazi country is ludicrist. But that hasn't stopped the ADL from applying its completly inconsistent standards onto everything else. Right now it has backed off its normal "No Excuse for Nazism" angles, and has engaged in excuses. And excuses are apologia. And as an example of its apologia is saying because they have not made any moves. So yes Pat is accurate.
So what you're claiming is both:
(A) What the ADL is saying now is reasonable.
(B) The ADL published an apologia for Nazism in the Ukraine.
Do I have that right?
There's no contradiction in what Banshee said. The points about Russia propaganda are largely valid. What makes it an apologia is how they're ignoring the Nazis to make that point.
Pretty much. In addition RUSSIA is the cause of Ukraines Nazi problem. Historically Ukraine never really liked its Jews all that much, but the Nazis, initially, seemed like better caretakers then Russia (who had killed millions through starvation only around a decade before), and so buddying up to them by selling out their Jews was a easy thing to do.
When Russia took Crimea, pro Nazi sentiments flared.
But the Russian propaganda is BS, and the ADL is making excuses when it normally never does stuff like this. You can find BBC articles from 5 years ago or so talking about this.
Im not going to ignore memory-holing just because it benefits me in the moment.
I wouldn't mind the west doing an nazi+oligarch purge, but if the west plays up Ukraine as a flawless state, it prevents from any real rebirth happening (assuming Ukraine withstands). Ukraines internal structure is corrupt as fuck. I really wouldn't mind a Japan style western re-structuring.
Dammit, people! Why are you guys ever surprised when a leftist organization betrays its "principles"? Leftist organizations are leftists first, then whatever else that's actually in their name second. ADL, ACLU, SPLC, it doesn't matter. The ADL would rehabilitate Hitler himself if it served a liberal/socialist/communist purpose. Leftist have no principles, only tactics.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 08:24:58 PM
Pretty much. In addition RUSSIA is the cause of Ukraines Nazi problem. Historically Ukraine never really liked its Jews all that much, but the Nazis, initially, seemed like better caretakers then Russia (who had killed millions through starvation only around a decade before), and so buddying up to them by selling out their Jews was a easy thing to do.
When Russia took Crimea, pro Nazi sentiments flared.
But the Russian propaganda is BS, and the ADL is making excuses when it normally never does stuff like this. You can find BBC articles from 5 years ago or so talking about this.
Everyone agrees there are nazis in Ukraine. But by saying the Russian propaganda is bullshit, you're saying that the nazi problem is less serious than they make it out to be.
That's been my general impression -- that the Russian propaganda is greatly playing up the extent of nazis in Ukraine. However, that can be said to be downplaying the nazis in Ukraine and/or excusing them.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 08:30:44 PM
Dammit, people! Why are you guys ever surprised when a leftist organization betrays its "principles"? Leftist organizations are leftists first, then whatever else that's actually in their name second. ADL, ACLU, SPLC, it doesn't matter. The ADL would rehabilitate Hitler himself if it served a liberal/socialist/communist purpose. Leftist have no principles, only tactics.
The ACLU used to have principles.
:sadpuppyface:
Quote from: Pat on March 29, 2022, 05:40:46 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 08:30:44 PM
Dammit, people! Why are you guys ever surprised when a leftist organization betrays its "principles"? Leftist organizations are leftists first, then whatever else that's actually in their name second. ADL, ACLU, SPLC, it doesn't matter. The ADL would rehabilitate Hitler himself if it served a liberal/socialist/communist purpose. Leftist have no principles, only tactics.
The ACLU used to have principles.
:sadpuppyface:
State and regional orgs, maybe. Nationally? Nope. They brag about how many briefs they file in support of the First Amendment (when it suits them) but they have been silent about the Second for quite a while.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 29, 2022, 07:58:11 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 29, 2022, 05:40:46 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 08:30:44 PM
Dammit, people! Why are you guys ever surprised when a leftist organization betrays its "principles"? Leftist organizations are leftists first, then whatever else that's actually in their name second. ADL, ACLU, SPLC, it doesn't matter. The ADL would rehabilitate Hitler himself if it served a liberal/socialist/communist purpose. Leftist have no principles, only tactics.
The ACLU used to have principles.
:sadpuppyface:
State and regional orgs, maybe. Nationally? Nope. They brag about how many briefs they file in support of the First Amendment (when it suits them) but they have been silent about the Second for quite a while.
No, nationally the ACLU used to have principles. This is the organization that stood up for the rights of pariah groups of all political stripes. Then they had that corruption scandal, and the huge influx of anti-Trump money since 2016, and they've dropped their neutrality to support political candidates, and with a few token exceptions only support hard leftist causes.
They've never been much of a gun rights group, though.
This just in from the ADL, Pograms against Romani and LGBTQ+ people = Not so bad. The complete and utter lack of self awareness around the media and watchdog groups "debunking" Putin's claims, which are largely just him repeating their headlines and STACKS of stories they wrote/taped on video for the past 8 years is hilarious.
I'm starting to see more reports of the coming world food crisis. For those who don't know, the Ukraine is one of the great breadbaskets of the world, and Russia isn't far behind. But the embargo and the Russian presence on the Black Sea is effectively interdicting 12% of the world's calories. The US tends to forget this, because North America is home to 3 of the world's great breadbaskets (Saskatchewan prairies, the US corn belt and the San Joaquin Valley). But this is having major ripple effects across the parts of the world that aren't so lucky, like Africa, the Middle-East, and Asia.
Food prices are spiking (55% jump in wheat prices), and there's widespread rationing. The World Food Program, which helps the starving in Africa, has had to halve their rations, cutting off the merely hungry to provide food to the starving. Other countries are hoarding grain, which will just make the inequities larger by creating bottlenecks. There are already riots in places like Haiti and Egypt, and it's only going to get worse because nothing drives people to violence like hunger. The last time this happened, we had the Arab Spring. This time, who knows? Food crises lead to political turmoil and regime changes. But one thing's sure: The people looking for wars to embroil the US will have a cornucopia of options.
And even the US isn't immune, because Russia produces most of the world's fertilizer, and that tap has been cut off. The result is farmers will have smaller yields, which will further exacerbate the crisis, because the US is the world's other major food exporter. The recent droughts in North America and rising fuel prices aren't helping, and the massive spending by governments inspired by the pandemic as well as the supply chain problems have chewed up a lot of the world's economic resilience.
This really could lead to a new world order, with global political changes and borders shifting.
"Biden's gaffes are because he's Irish"
Translation: Irish are stupid.
Is this because he's Irish, as well?
https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1508525310295351298
When challenged about his flubs about sending troops to the Ukraine, responding in kind to a chemical weapon attack, and regime change in Russia, Biden just said "none of the 3 occurred".
Quote from: Pat on March 29, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
I'm starting to see more reports of the coming world food crisis. For those who don't know, the Ukraine is one of the great breadbaskets of the world, and Russia isn't far behind.
Lets hope its over within a month or so. There seems to be some progress on the peace front. And retreats on the Russian front (doesn't mean a loss on their part). Maybe we all agree to call Putin 'King BigDick', and kill all the Nazis in Ukraine and we move on?
Maybe we get the UN to host a medal party for Putin for defeating nazism in the world? And have it be telivised?
Quote from: Pat on March 29, 2022, 01:04:58 PM
Is this because he's Irish, as well?
https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1508525310295351298
When challenged about his flubs about sending troops to the Ukraine, responding in kind to a chemical weapon attack, and regime change in Russia, Biden just said "none of the 3 occurred".
You'd need to ask the imbecile from CNN.
But hey! No more mean tweets!
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 29, 2022, 01:14:11 PM
But hey! No more mean tweets!
Yeah, they're ONLY going to destroy the world's economy. But at least they don't tweet mean things... Except against the approved targets of course.
Maybe Putin should start with de-nazifying Russia first.
Like this guy, Dmitry Utkine, head of the Wagner Mercenaries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Utkin
(http://www.romea.cz/aaa/img.php?src=/img_upload/03ec66ac77713bab242255f6194ad3ff/utkin.jpg&w=630)
Quote from: Pat on March 29, 2022, 11:36:14 AM
I'm starting to see more reports of the coming world food crisis. For those who don't know, the Ukraine is one of the great breadbaskets of the world, and Russia isn't far behind. But the embargo and the Russian presence on the Black Sea is effectively interdicting 12% of the world's calories. The US tends to forget this, because North America is home to 3 of the world's great breadbaskets (Saskatchewan prairies, the US corn belt and the San Joaquin Valley). But this is having major ripple effects across the parts of the world that aren't so lucky, like Africa, the Middle-East, and Asia.
Food prices are spiking (55% jump in wheat prices), and there's widespread rationing. The World Food Program, which helps the starving in Africa, has had to halve their rations, cutting off the merely hungry to provide food to the starving. Other countries are hoarding grain, which will just make the inequities larger by creating bottlenecks. There are already riots in places like Haiti and Egypt, and it's only going to get worse because nothing drives people to violence like hunger. The last time this happened, we had the Arab Spring. This time, who knows? Food crises lead to political turmoil and regime changes. But one thing's sure: The people looking for wars to embroil the US will have a cornucopia of options.
And even the US isn't immune, because Russia produces most of the world's fertilizer, and that tap has been cut off. The result is farmers will have smaller yields, which will further exacerbate the crisis, because the US is the world's other major food exporter. The recent droughts in North America and rising fuel prices aren't helping, and the massive spending by governments inspired by the pandemic as well as the supply chain problems have chewed up a lot of the world's economic resilience.
This really could lead to a new world order, with global political changes and borders shifting.
It's ok, Uncle Joe is going to fix it all....
Mwwwahahahaa who am I kidding he's likely not even aware he's the President. He had some delusional moments early on and dreams of being the next FDR (just threw up typing those initials) when in reality he's just turning out to be a shittier Jimmy Carter.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 30, 2022, 03:35:12 AM
Maybe Putin should start with de-nazifying Russia first.
Like this guy, Dmitry Utkine, head of the Wagner Mercenaries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Utkin
(http://www.romea.cz/aaa/img.php?src=/img_upload/03ec66ac77713bab242255f6194ad3ff/utkin.jpg&w=630)
Sheesh, that guy looks like he wants to audition for the role of a supervillain.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 30, 2022, 09:24:26 AM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on March 30, 2022, 03:35:12 AM
Maybe Putin should start with de-nazifying Russia first.
Like this guy, Dmitry Utkine, head of the Wagner Mercenaries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Utkin
(http://www.romea.cz/aaa/img.php?src=/img_upload/03ec66ac77713bab242255f6194ad3ff/utkin.jpg&w=630)
Sheesh, that guy looks like he wants to audition for the role of a supervillain.
More specifically, Destro in the next GI Joe fim.
Well it looks like you can trust the Putin admin as far as you can throw it. Promised cutting back on bombings, but proceeded with them anyway.
Im getting the growing gnawaing feeling that Putin won't settle for anything less then splitting the country in two. Which will make both sides borderline unlivable. One side will be occupied, and the other side will be militarized awaiting another invasion.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 30, 2022, 05:06:46 PM
Well it looks like you can trust the Putin admin as far as you can throw it. Promised cutting back on bombings, but proceeded with them anyway.
Im getting the growing gnawaing feeling that Putin won't settle for anything less then splitting the country in two. Which will make both sides borderline unlivable. One side will be occupied, and the other side will be militarized awaiting another invasion.
Putin did serve in East Germany, so he's familiar with split countries.
> trust
> Putin
Really?
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 31, 2022, 08:04:34 AM
> trust
> Putin
Really?
I wanted to believe in peace. :(
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 31, 2022, 11:54:50 AM
It is a lie. There is only passion.
Well the peace Jedi speak of is found only in the grave.
Man Ukraine should have voted Darth Vader in when he was on the ballot. ;(
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 05:29:57 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 28, 2022, 04:13:07 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 12:00:18 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
Yeah this is a misqoute. The ADF has enough internal corruption to not need things made up about it.
It's a direct quote. Read the last paragraph.
The last paragraph:
"There are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, just as there are in the U.S., and in Russia for that matter. But they are a very marginal group with no political influence and who don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions in Ukraine. Putin's propaganda is so far from the truth that it doesn't survive the first contact with even a little knowledge."
Show me where the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions". Cause that's not at all what that paragraph is saying. That was them responding to the allegation that they're identical to WW2 Nazis, not why they are defending Ukraine. Which you knew, you liar.
Do you have reading comprehension issues, or are you so desperate to call me a liar that you'll ignore the plain text of a document?
The ADL published an interview, which is an apologia for Nazis in the Ukraine. It makes ridiculous assertions, like pretending 2% of the vote shows they're irrelevant, when those kinds of numbers would be staggering anywhere else on the globe. They're falsely equating this with the US, which has to stretch to come up with even a few hundred genuine Nazis. And in the concluding paragraph, which summarizes their position, they repeat the claim the Nazis are just a marginal fringe, which they've been asserting the entire article, and then throw in a second justification: That they're not attacking Jews.
This is plain to read for anyone.
It's not 2% of the vote. It's the party the neo-nazis voted for (which non-neo-nazis also voted for) got 2% of the vote. Which is LESS THAT SIMILAR PARTIES IN THE REST OF EUROPE ARE GETTING. That's like saying neo-nazis voted for Trump therefore all votes Trump received are from neo-naizs. That's a blatantly false claim you completely understand when it comes to the U.S. but magically when it's an argument about Ukraine suddenly you're making the far-left progressive's spin of those facts.
They didn't use "they're not attacking Jews" as a justification for them either. That is, again, a blatant lie about what they said. They used it to say they're not "Just like WW2 nazis" but also didn't justify them in any way and condemned them outright.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 31, 2022, 03:05:54 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 05:29:57 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on March 28, 2022, 04:13:07 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 12:00:18 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
Yeah this is a misqoute. The ADF has enough internal corruption to not need things made up about it.
It's a direct quote. Read the last paragraph.
The last paragraph:
"There are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, just as there are in the U.S., and in Russia for that matter. But they are a very marginal group with no political influence and who don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions in Ukraine. Putin's propaganda is so far from the truth that it doesn't survive the first contact with even a little knowledge."
Show me where the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions". Cause that's not at all what that paragraph is saying. That was them responding to the allegation that they're identical to WW2 Nazis, not why they are defending Ukraine. Which you knew, you liar.
Do you have reading comprehension issues, or are you so desperate to call me a liar that you'll ignore the plain text of a document?
The ADL published an interview, which is an apologia for Nazis in the Ukraine. It makes ridiculous assertions, like pretending 2% of the vote shows they're irrelevant, when those kinds of numbers would be staggering anywhere else on the globe. They're falsely equating this with the US, which has to stretch to come up with even a few hundred genuine Nazis. And in the concluding paragraph, which summarizes their position, they repeat the claim the Nazis are just a marginal fringe, which they've been asserting the entire article, and then throw in a second justification: That they're not attacking Jews.
This is plain to read for anyone.
It's not 2% of the vote. It's the party the neo-nazis voted for (which non-neo-nazis also voted for) got 2% of the vote. Which is LESS THAT SIMILAR PARTIES IN THE REST OF EUROPE ARE GETTING. That's like saying neo-nazis voted for Trump therefore all votes Trump received are from neo-naizs. That's a blatantly false claim you completely understand when it comes to the U.S. but magically when it's an argument about Ukraine suddenly you're making the far-left progressive's spin of those facts.
They didn't use "they're not attacking Jews" as a justification for them either. That is, again, a blatant lie about what they said. They used it to say they're not "Just like WW2 nazis" but also didn't justify them in any way and condemned them outright.
This is idiotic, and you're an idiot. I never lied about anything, and the circumlocutions you're going through to say I am when I'm clearly not is just sad.
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 12:00:18 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
Yeah this is a misqoute. The ADF has enough internal corruption to not need things made up about it.
It's a direct quote. Read the last paragraph.
Pat, the phrase you put quotations around does not appear in the document. You added the words "because they" to the front of it, when those words do not appear in the ADL document - yet you included them inside the quotation marks. Therefore, it is objectively a misquote.
I'd certainly accept it as an honest mistake rather than an intentional deception, but it was incorrect.
Quote from: jhkim on March 31, 2022, 03:31:55 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 28, 2022, 12:00:18 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "because they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
Yeah this is a misqoute. The ADF has enough internal corruption to not need things made up about it.
It's a direct quote. Read the last paragraph.
Pat, the phrase you put quotations around does not appear in the document. You added the words "because they" to the front of it, when those words do not appear in the ADL document - yet you included them inside the quotation marks. Therefore, it is objectively a misquote.
I'd certainly accept it as an honest mistake rather than an intentional deception, but it was incorrect.
Ah, you're correct. I put the quote in the wrong place.
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:26:55 AM
And... the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is now defending Nazis in the Ukraine, "... they don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions".
https://www.adl.org/blog/why-is-putin-calling-the-ukrainian-government-a-bunch-of-nazis
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 05:45:13 PM
...
The ADL not calling all that out, and instead just brushing it all off as Russia propaganda, is truly bizarre. To mistitle the most famous book by that guy who groped Connie Willis, I Have No Principles and Must Virtue Signal. They're mindlessly adopting the current narrative, even though it goes against their founding standards.
...
Against their founding standards? Bizarre?
Not really. Zelensky is a Jew, so they are going to defend his reputation and that of his government.
They are an organization founded specifically: "
to stop the defamation of the Jewish people". That other work has been done has been merely ancillary to the core reasons for the ADL's founding.
They have practiced a solid in-group preference since the beginning. And it should come as no surprise that they continue to do so.
i.e. ADL lawyers are still involved in trying to overturn Leo Frank's conviction:
https://theamericanmercury.org/2021/07/mary-phagans-family-opposes-exoneration-of-sex-killer-leo-frank/ (https://theamericanmercury.org/2021/07/mary-phagans-family-opposes-exoneration-of-sex-killer-leo-frank/)
Quote from: oggsmash on March 29, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
... The complete and utter lack of self awareness around the media and watchdog groups "debunking" Putin's claims, which are largely just him repeating their headlines and STACKS of stories they wrote/taped on video for the past 8 years is hilarious.
Yes, the memory holing of the West's gross interference, and especially the US governments involvement in the current corrupt Ukrainian government is strong.
The US government, Western Media, and their Intelligence services, are demonstrably corrupt, and proven liars.
Why anyone would take anything they say at face value is beyond me.
We are witnessing the biggest propaganda Psyop in history.
Quote from: Willmark on March 30, 2022, 07:13:34 AM
It's ok, Uncle Joe is going to fix it all....
...
A picture of Joe Biden's latest cheat sheet,
with preapproved questions and answers from the media:Photograph-captures-Biden-cheat-sheethttps://sports.yahoo.com/photograph-captures-biden-cheat-sheet-064359347.html (https://sports.yahoo.com/photograph-captures-biden-cheat-sheet-064359347.html)
FYI and all that...
ruSSians are really poor losers. As they withdraw they make sure to get some revenge.
QuoteAccording to reports, Russian forces killed all males aged 18-60 in the city of Bucha, northwest of Kyiv.
"All men who were and young and healthy were shot."
https://twitter.com/GicAriana/status/1510257553393041410?s=20&t=71QZHEZz4t4d_0gKS06vvw
I hope these Orcs doesn't get to go home but are re-assigned to the east where they can face some karmic retribution next time they come across Ukrainan soldiers.
While Russians are awful, that sounds like propaganda.
Maybe an excuse to dodge the draft.
Russians aren't Orcs.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 02, 2022, 04:10:17 PM
While Russians are awful, that sounds like propaganda.
Maybe an excuse to dodge the draft.
Russians aren't Orcs.
https://i.redd.it/jh3920qow3r81.jpg
Hands tied behind their backs.
and here a video of what met the Ukr soldiers as they arrived to the town.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIViqdiaOW8
I wouldn't necessarily believe anything I see in a news report right now about this situation. We've been lied to by our government and the media so many times, I just don't trust anything they tell me. Eventually the truth comes out (usually), but that can take months or even years. For example, it was only a few years ago that declassified correspondence in the U.S. National Archives revealed Churchill and FDR knew all along that the Soviets had carried out the Katyn Forest massacre, yet they continued to lie to the public about it and portrayed it as a Nazi atrocity, solely so that the public would have a better opinion of Stalin.
Quote from: I on April 02, 2022, 05:20:23 PM
I wouldn't necessarily believe anything I see in a news report right now about this situation. We've been lied to by our government and the media so many times, I just don't trust anything they tell me. Eventually the truth comes out (usually), but that can take months or even years. For example, it was only a few years ago that declassified correspondence in the U.S. National Archives revealed Churchill and FDR knew all along that the Soviets had carried out the Katyn Forest massacre, yet they continued to lie to the public about it and portrayed it as a Nazi atrocity, solely so that the public would have a better opinion of Stalin.
You DO realize that that is EXACTLY what Putin wants you to think?
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 02, 2022, 05:35:32 PM
Quote from: I on April 02, 2022, 05:20:23 PM
I wouldn't necessarily believe anything I see in a news report right now about this situation. We've been lied to by our government and the media so many times, I just don't trust anything they tell me. Eventually the truth comes out (usually), but that can take months or even years. For example, it was only a few years ago that declassified correspondence in the U.S. National Archives revealed Churchill and FDR knew all along that the Soviets had carried out the Katyn Forest massacre, yet they continued to lie to the public about it and portrayed it as a Nazi atrocity, solely so that the public would have a better opinion of Stalin.
You DO realize that that is EXACTLY what Putin wants you to think?
Yes, Putin is 100% responsible for the Western governments and media lying to their people. If you don't believe in them despite all the evidence to the contrary, you're a Naz... a comm... damn. We really need a term of opprobrium for Putin supporters that we can just randomly apply to anyone who disagrees us, and which sounds so terrible that it will shame them into complying, just like we've done in the past with the Nazis and commies. Fascist, maybe? Nah, we've overused that word so much it's lost all meaning. Please do market research and come up with a new term, and have it on my desk by Monday morning.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 02, 2022, 04:25:22 PMHuman Corpses
We can discuss this further but can you remove the images of actual human corpses?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 02, 2022, 07:27:52 PM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 02, 2022, 04:25:22 PMHuman Corpses
We can discuss this further but can you remove the images of actual human corpses?
At least you admit they're actual human corpses and don't dismiss them as "crisis actors"...
...progress
I mean probably, but I've seen multiple times in recent war and violence coverage by media - hard manipulations in various regard.
Like for instance using photos of incident from like 5 years ago, in article about modern shit. Commonly used technique.
So.. I advice patience. I have lil faith in Russian Army humanitarism, but I also have lil faith in Western Media honesty.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 02, 2022, 05:35:32 PM
You DO realize that that is EXACTLY what Putin wants you to think?
So? That doesn't make him wrong. A long time ago I used to believe we had a free press and that our government has its people's best interests at heart. But a person can only be lied to, and lied to, and lied to so many times before he realizes not to just trust anything a known liar tells him. Might be the truth; might not. I'm not a "blame America first" person at all, and I believe war definitely can solve things, sometimes. But only a fool blindly swallows everything he's told just because he wants to believe it.
Example: I have a friend who worked for the UN in Kosovo after NATO had interceded there. Unlike me, he believed what he saw on the news and that the Serbs were the bad guys. When he came back a few years later, he told me that the media had distorted the whole situation; that we should have stayed out of it but if he HAD to pick a side, it would be with the Serbs, not against them. A lot of stuff had simply not been reported or had been slanted by our government and the media to give the American people a false impression. As usual, the media started with a narrative and then steered reporting to the service of that narrative. Thus, every time Serbs massacred civilians (which did happen) we heard about it, but the many Serbs massacred we never heard about.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 02, 2022, 08:13:30 PM
At least you admit they're actual human corpses and don't dismiss them as "crisis actors"...
...progress
It's true that this photo might be exactly what's claimed. Russians did things like this in both world wars, and they might have done this. Americans even have done it, though nowhere near to the extent that America-hating left wingers like to claim. But remember the Germans took photos of
actual human corpses in Polish uniforms to "prove" that Poland had attacked Germany, thus justifying an invasion of that country. That the Germans themselves had shot prisoners and then dressed the bodies in Polish uniforms wasn't reported of course; they just showed the photos, made up a story to go with it and the gullible public believed it all.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 02, 2022, 08:13:30 PMAt least you admit they're actual human corpses and don't dismiss them as "crisis actors"...
I never said there where no pointless and cruel civilian casualties during a war where the normal Russia playbook is dumb-fire bombings. But killing ALL the men, feels out of place for Soldiers with a weak supply chain.
An op-ed for state news agency RIA Novosti titled "What Russia should do with Ukraine" by pundit Timofei Sergeitsev.
The rhetoric is truly horrific.
Below are a few quotes:
"Denazification is a set of measures aimed at the nazified mass of the population, which technically cannot be subjected to direct punishment as war criminals"
"However, besides the elite, a significant part of the masses of the people, who are passive nazis, are accomplices to Nazism. They have supported the Nazi authorities and indulged them..."
"...The just punishment for this part of the population is possible only as the bearing of the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system"
"The name Ukraine can seemingly not be retained as the title of any fully denazified state formation on the territory liberated from the Nazi regime"
"Denazification is inevitably also deukrainisation – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic element of self-identification of the population of the territories of the historical Malorossiya and Novorossiya begun by the Soviet authorities"
"Unlike, let's say, Georgia or the Baltics, Ukraine, as history has shown, is unviable as a national state, and attempts to 'build' one logically lead to Nazism"
"The Banderite elite must be liquidated, its reeducation is impossible. The social 'swamp' which actively and passively supports it must undergo the hardships of war and digest the experience as a historical lesson and atonement"
The Google translated entire piece can be found here:
https://twitter.com/bratanov/status/1510913121669550080
Quote from: Mistwell on April 04, 2022, 10:25:51 AM
An op-ed for state news agency RIA Novosti titled "What Russia should do with Ukraine" by pundit Timofei Sergeitsev.
The rhetoric is truly horrific.
Below are a few quotes:
"Denazification is a set of measures aimed at the nazified mass of the population, which technically cannot be subjected to direct punishment as war criminals"
"However, besides the elite, a significant part of the masses of the people, who are passive nazis, are accomplices to Nazism. They have supported the Nazi authorities and indulged them..."
"...The just punishment for this part of the population is possible only as the bearing of the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system"
"The name Ukraine can seemingly not be retained as the title of any fully denazified state formation on the territory liberated from the Nazi regime"
"Denazification is inevitably also deukrainisation – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic element of self-identification of the population of the territories of the historical Malorossiya and Novorossiya begun by the Soviet authorities"
"Unlike, let's say, Georgia or the Baltics, Ukraine, as history has shown, is unviable as a national state, and attempts to 'build' one logically lead to Nazism"
"The Banderite elite must be liquidated, its reeducation is impossible. The social 'swamp' which actively and passively supports it must undergo the hardships of war and digest the experience as a historical lesson and atonement"
The Google translated entire piece can be found here:
https://twitter.com/bratanov/status/1510913121669550080
That all sounds perfectly reasonable. What are you, a Nazi?
Oh wait, it's from Putin and not Biden? WE MUST IMMEDIATELY DECLARE WAR!
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 02, 2022, 05:35:32 PM
You DO realize that that is EXACTLY what Putin wants you to think?
You DO realize that that is EXACTLY what The Media wants you to say?
The US government, and the media are run by corrupt lying Elites.
Why would you believe them?
I get it , we are pre-conditioned to perceive Russia as Big Evil due to many of us growing up when the cold war was still a thing.
Nobody here is saying that Putin is a good dude. But the shrill labeling of him as the new Literally Hitler is just a bit much...
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 03, 2022, 12:34:38 AM
...
I never said there where no pointless and cruel civilian casualties during a war where the normal Russia playbook is dumb-fire bombings. But killing ALL the men, feels out of place for Soldiers with a weak supply chain.
It is out of place, especially since Russia pointedly isn't using their dumb-fire bombing playbook.
Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2022, 12:31:12 PM
That all sounds perfectly reasonable. What are you, a Nazi?
Oh wait, it's from Putin and not Biden? WE MUST IMMEDIATELY DECLARE WAR!
Yes.
The western media are pushing a Hard Core pro-war narrative as if Russia doesn't have a single atomic missile in its possession.
It's as if they are trying to get people so worked up that they will go along with war against a nuclear power.
Like they're trying to push a collective madness in real time.
I'm becoming more cynical about about the current western media psyops by the day, largely due their current record so far:
Quote...when the Russian POW torture video came out, it was Ukraine that cried "fake" until days later all western 'authorities' were forced to admit it was real. When the 'maternity hospital' falseflag in Mariupol occurred, Kiev supporters blamed Russia and once again Russia was the one proven right and vindicated when the pregnant girl at the center of it herself released an interview completely refuting Ukr lies, and stating that not only did Ukr soldiers turn the hospital into a barracks but stole the precious food from pregnant women and then shelled the hospital themselves. And much earlier, when Ukr claimed Russia bombed an 'innocent' civilian mall, yet the very next moment the Russian MOD released detailed videos showing precisely how Ukrop forces positioned mobile artillery in the parking garage of the said 'mall'. When Ukrops claimed Russia tried to blow up the Zaporizhzhia plant, yet security footage showed that as a Russian security force arrived, it was fired upon by an RPG from Ukrop positions in one of the administrative buildings of the plant. Or when the famed American journalist was killed in Irpin right outside Kiev a month ago, and all Ukr supporters shouted Russia, but the entire incident was quickly swept under the rug when the journalist's own friend/companion in an interview stated they were fired upon by Ukrop troops at a Ukrop checkpoint miles away from the nearest Russian forces. So the track record shows over and over that these incidents are invariably revealed as Ukrainian lies...
Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2022, 02:53:26 PM
It is out of place, especially since Russia pointedly isn't using their dumb-fire bombing playbook.
While my second hand report is only from family in Ukraine, there has been allot of collateral damage by Russia on Ukrainian property, and military analysts have notes that Russia ran out of guided munitions early on in the war.
Im not sure how any of this doesn't match Russias playbook.
Russia isn't being genocidal in intent. But neither was the USA in the middle east.
I feel some people are taking Putins position out of spite.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 04, 2022, 05:39:56 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2022, 02:53:26 PM
It is out of place, especially since Russia pointedly isn't using their dumb-fire bombing playbook.
While my second hand report is only from family in Ukraine, there has been allot of collateral damage by Russia on Ukrainian property, and military analysts have notes that Russia ran out of guided munitions early on in the war.
Im not sure how any of this doesn't match Russias playbook.
Russia isn't being genocidal in intent. But neither was the USA in the middle east.
I feel some people are taking Putins position out of spite.
If they are, it's almost certainly not spite toward the people of Ukraine, but spite towards the idiots in NATO and the US who kept poking the bear and then dropping the stick in Ukraine's lap and saying "he did it."
If you had told me in 2002 that in 20 years I'd be anti-war I'd have thought you insane. But now I see the strings and who gets rich off the suffering in the forever wars. I just want them to suffer every last thing they've inflicted on people who just wanted to left alone to live their lives and raise their families.
Putin isn't innocent, but there are a ton of people just as guilty who don't deserve to get away with it either.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2022, 09:00:17 AMIf they are, it's almost certainly not spite toward the people of Ukraine, but spite towards the idiots in NATO and the US who kept poking the bear and then dropping the stick in Ukraine's lap and saying "he did it."
If you had told me in 2002 that in 20 years I'd be anti-war I'd have thought you insane. But now I see the strings and who gets rich off the suffering in the forever wars. I just want them to suffer every last thing they've inflicted on people who just wanted to left alone to live their lives and raise their families.
Putin isn't innocent, but there are a ton of people just as guilty who don't deserve to get away with it either.
Im not saying the West is innocent there. I think a competitor to the bloated corrupt west is a good thing. The blanket sanctions against anybody Russian is an example of it applying force to people that don't deserve it out of spite.
But Putin did start a stupid war for weak reasons, while being in a bad place economically. Just because its not the USA doing it, doesn't make it a good thing.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2022, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 04, 2022, 05:39:56 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2022, 02:53:26 PM
It is out of place, especially since Russia pointedly isn't using their dumb-fire bombing playbook.
While my second hand report is only from family in Ukraine, there has been allot of collateral damage by Russia on Ukrainian property, and military analysts have notes that Russia ran out of guided munitions early on in the war.
Im not sure how any of this doesn't match Russias playbook.
Russia isn't being genocidal in intent. But neither was the USA in the middle east.
I feel some people are taking Putins position out of spite.
If they are, it's almost certainly not spite toward the people of Ukraine, but spite towards the idiots in NATO and the US who kept poking the bear and then dropping the stick in Ukraine's lap and saying "he did it."
If you had told me in 2002 that in 20 years I'd be anti-war I'd have thought you insane. But now I see the strings and who gets rich off the suffering in the forever wars. I just want them to suffer every last thing they've inflicted on people who just wanted to left alone to live their lives and raise their families.
Putin isn't innocent, but there are a ton of people just as guilty who don't deserve to get away with it either.
Greetings!
*Exactly* my friend. Excellent commentary.
This is essentially how I feel about this whole situation. I'm not alone, either. I mean, beyond you and other members here. Off site, I have friends and neighbors alike that are not blind to the evil, manipulative, criminal corruption of our government, NATO, and the EU, as well as being aware of the "Colour Revolutions" instigated, funded, and supported by the US in regards to Ukraine in particular. In addition, the political deception, lying, and manipulation of treaties and various activities ever since the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union. More recently, the whole "Russia! Russia! Russia!" scapegoating of Russia, the constant provocations against Russia by our media and our government--all of this evil, terrible things have gotten us to where we are now.
I can't help but wonder if this country's government had behaved more responsibly, more ethically, and more sincerely, over the fall of the Soviet Union, but most importantly since 2014 with Ukraine, the EU, and Russia--this war may very likely have been avoided entirely.
Added to these concerns, I believe many Americans--as well as myself--are keenly aware of our government's corruption, incompetence, and arrogance painfully displayed over the last 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan--culminating with the shameful, disgraceful retreat from Afghanistan--again, on full display for the entire world to watch and giggle with glee--while in the fucked up debacle we abandon not only people--but BILLIONS OF DOLLARS of American taxpayer's money in value of military supplies, technology, equipment, as well as huge pallets stacked of hundreds of millions of dollars.
All of this goes into how I believe many Americans hold the position that it is us, in fact, our government--that has been involved along with NATO and the EU--in recklessly and arrogantly provoking Russia--combined with corruption and incompetence--which could have created a very different scenario for us, Russia, Ukraine, and Europe as well.
More Americans are much more observant and wise to the evil and corruption in our own government, and have increasingly taken a far more skeptical view towards America getting involved with foreign wars--"Foreign Entanglements" as our Founding Fathers cautioned us. Americans are tired of dying for fat, evil, corrupt elites--while also paying our tax money to fund all of these adventures--while being lied to and manipulated every step of the way by our government and the sluts of the media. Americans have just had it with the corrupt, interventionist, warmongering, profiteering bullshit.
Stay strong, my friend.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2022, 09:00:17 AM
If they are, it's almost certainly not spite toward the people of Ukraine, but spite towards the idiots in NATO and the US who kept poking the bear and then dropping the stick in Ukraine's lap and saying "he did it."
If you had told me in 2002 that in 20 years I'd be anti-war I'd have thought you insane. But now I see the strings and who gets rich off the suffering in the forever wars. I just want them to suffer every last thing they've inflicted on people who just wanted to left alone to live their lives and raise their families.
Putin isn't innocent, but there are a ton of people just as guilty who don't deserve to get away with it either.
My feelings exactly. And let me add that if anybody wants to know where Putin got his blueprint for his invasion of Ukraine, look at NATO's intervention in the Balkans in the 1990s. NATO ( and their MSM media lackeys) picked the side of the rebels in a civil war, gave the middle finger to the UN and then bombed a country (specifically targeting civilians) that had done absolutely nothing to any NATO member and was not even a potential threat to any NATO member. The Russians protested and said it was setting a bad precedent, and they were told to shut up and sit down. Then, when the Russians sent in "peacekeepers" of their own, U.S. General Wesley Clark ordered an attack on them, nearly setting off WW III. (Fortunately his British sub-commander refused the order). That's how easily this thing could get out of hand and trigger a nuclear war -- one gung-ho general with political aspirations (Clark later ran for President as a Democrat) giving one dumb order.
SO, so much moral relativism justified here.
Someone else was bad and got away with it, therefore we shouldn't even condemn others for being just as bad anymore because we never did anything about the other bad people.
Believe nothing because a small portion of reports are false therefore assume all reports are false therefore never accept any data of any kind that something bad is happening and besides other bad people got away with it too so why bother.
Congratulations. Y'all have talked yourselves into being nihilists. Enjoy listening to The Cure I guess?
Quote from: Mistwell on April 05, 2022, 05:13:27 PM
SO, so much moral relativism justified here.
Someone else was bad and got away with it, therefore we shouldn't even condemn others for being just as bad anymore because we never did anything about the other bad people.
Believe nothing because a small portion of reports are false therefore assume all reports are false therefore never accept any data of any kind that something bad is happening and besides other bad people got away with it too so why bother.
Congratulations. Y'all have talked yourselves into being nihilists. Enjoy listening to The Cure I guess?
Disintegration
is a good album.
Quote from: SHARK on April 05, 2022, 09:58:43 AM
More Americans are much more observant and wise to the evil and corruption in our own government, and have increasingly taken a far more skeptical view towards America getting involved with foreign wars--"Foreign Entanglements" as our Founding Fathers cautioned us. Americans are tired of dying for fat, evil, corrupt elites--while also paying our tax money to fund all of these adventures--while being lied to and manipulated every step of the way by our government and the sluts of the media. Americans have just had it with the corrupt, interventionist, warmongering, profiteering bullshit.
I'd just say that while we might disagree on some specifics, I very much agree with the general argument here about our larger pattern of war. The U.S. is still the largest arms dealer in the world by far, and we spend an enormous amount on military despite almost zero chance of being invaded. It is long past time we dialed down our military adventurism.
Well the Russia sanctions where executed with the grace of a grenade.
Turn out our friends in Doshd had their assets frozen. The ones that where taken off air in Russia for being anti-war.
Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2022, 12:31:12 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 04, 2022, 10:25:51 AM
An op-ed for state news agency RIA Novosti titled "What Russia should do with Ukraine" by pundit Timofei Sergeitsev.
The rhetoric is truly horrific.
Below are a few quotes:
"Denazification is a set of measures aimed at the nazified mass of the population, which technically cannot be subjected to direct punishment as war criminals"
"However, besides the elite, a significant part of the masses of the people, who are passive nazis, are accomplices to Nazism. They have supported the Nazi authorities and indulged them..."
"...The just punishment for this part of the population is possible only as the bearing of the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system"
"The name Ukraine can seemingly not be retained as the title of any fully denazified state formation on the territory liberated from the Nazi regime"
"Denazification is inevitably also deukrainisation – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic element of self-identification of the population of the territories of the historical Malorossiya and Novorossiya begun by the Soviet authorities"
"Unlike, let's say, Georgia or the Baltics, Ukraine, as history has shown, is unviable as a national state, and attempts to 'build' one logically lead to Nazism"
"The Banderite elite must be liquidated, its reeducation is impossible. The social 'swamp' which actively and passively supports it must undergo the hardships of war and digest the experience as a historical lesson and atonement"
The Google translated entire piece can be found here:
https://twitter.com/bratanov/status/1510913121669550080
That all sounds perfectly reasonable. What are you, a Nazi?
The Real Nazis are showing themselves at last.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2022, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 04, 2022, 05:39:56 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2022, 02:53:26 PM
It is out of place, especially since Russia pointedly isn't using their dumb-fire bombing playbook.
While my second hand report is only from family in Ukraine, there has been allot of collateral damage by Russia on Ukrainian property, and military analysts have notes that Russia ran out of guided munitions early on in the war.
Im not sure how any of this doesn't match Russias playbook.
Russia isn't being genocidal in intent. But neither was the USA in the middle east.
I feel some people are taking Putins position out of spite.
If they are, it's almost certainly not spite toward the people of Ukraine, but spite towards the idiots in NATO and the US who kept poking the bear and then dropping the stick in Ukraine's lap and saying "he did it."
If you had told me in 2002 that in 20 years I'd be anti-war I'd have thought you insane. But now I see the strings and who gets rich off the suffering in the forever wars. I just want them to suffer every last thing they've inflicted on people who just wanted to left alone to live their lives and raise their families.
Putin isn't innocent, but there are a ton of people just as guilty who don't deserve to get away with it either.
Ah yes, moral relativism. Where you don't have to choose a side and still come out smelling like a rose in the end.
Quote from: blackstone on April 27, 2022, 11:37:13 AM
Ah yes, moral relativism. Where you don't have to choose a side and still come out smelling like a rose in the end.
He isn't a moral relativist. Just sick of war culture.
that's fine. I just call em as I see em.
Quote from: blackstone on April 27, 2022, 11:37:13 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2022, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 04, 2022, 05:39:56 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2022, 02:53:26 PM
It is out of place, especially since Russia pointedly isn't using their dumb-fire bombing playbook.
While my second hand report is only from family in Ukraine, there has been allot of collateral damage by Russia on Ukrainian property, and military analysts have notes that Russia ran out of guided munitions early on in the war.
Im not sure how any of this doesn't match Russias playbook.
Russia isn't being genocidal in intent. But neither was the USA in the middle east.
I feel some people are taking Putins position out of spite.
If they are, it's almost certainly not spite toward the people of Ukraine, but spite towards the idiots in NATO and the US who kept poking the bear and then dropping the stick in Ukraine's lap and saying "he did it."
If you had told me in 2002 that in 20 years I'd be anti-war I'd have thought you insane. But now I see the strings and who gets rich off the suffering in the forever wars. I just want them to suffer every last thing they've inflicted on people who just wanted to left alone to live their lives and raise their families.
Putin isn't innocent, but there are a ton of people just as guilty who don't deserve to get away with it either.
Ah yes, moral relativism. Where you don't have to choose a side and still come out smelling like a rose in the end.
He is choosing a side, the people of the nations involved. This means, execute Putin, Zelensky, and Biden and the people who keep those queefs in power, and it probably works out tons better for the populations of the nations involved. I am not for international wars either, as I am very, very skeptical of any narratives around it. However, if we want to discuss burning political elites at the stake who love promoting those wars....I can give it a serious look.
If there's any positive thing about this war, it's demonstrating the sheer incompetence of the Russian military. Putin has been working the last 15 years to try and rebuild the Russian military into a force to be reckoned with... And they're being ground up like meat by Ukrainian forces (using superior Nato equipment).
An interesting thing I was watching about is the heavy use of Drones in the war and how it seems Russia's drone technology is apparently flagging compared to the rest of the world's. They're unable to detect the drones being used by the Ukrainians (again, provided by Nato)
You can bet China has been watching this and it probably put the kebab on any near future Taiwan invasion plans. Who knew corrupt as hell governments make weak militaries.
Quote from: Orphan81 on April 29, 2022, 08:30:47 AM
Who knew corrupt as hell governments make weak militaries.
That would certainly explain how a tribe of medieval goat herders with no air force and no armor routed the U.S. military from Afghanistan.
Quote from: I on April 29, 2022, 10:14:29 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on April 29, 2022, 08:30:47 AM
Who knew corrupt as hell governments make weak militaries.
That would certainly explain how a tribe of medieval goat herders with no air force and no armor routed the U.S. military from Afghanistan.
Except you know, that's not what happened at all. The taliban was completely in check during the last two years of occupation. But it's almost like when the order was given to leave the Taliban decided to take back over..
Like they were you know, waiting for the military to leave!
Quote from: Orphan81 on April 29, 2022, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: I on April 29, 2022, 10:14:29 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on April 29, 2022, 08:30:47 AM
Who knew corrupt as hell governments make weak militaries.
That would certainly explain how a tribe of medieval goat herders with no air force and no armor routed the U.S. military from Afghanistan.
Except you know, that's not what happened at all. The taliban was completely in check during the last two years of occupation. But it's almost like when the order was given to leave the Taliban decided to take back over..
Like they were you know, waiting for the military to leave!
More specifically; they remained suppressed until we took the heel off their throat, and then reneged on the deal to depart.
Quote from: Orphan81 on April 29, 2022, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: I on April 29, 2022, 10:14:29 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on April 29, 2022, 08:30:47 AM
Who knew corrupt as hell governments make weak militaries.
That would certainly explain how a tribe of medieval goat herders with no air force and no armor routed the U.S. military from Afghanistan.
Except you know, that's not what happened at all. The taliban was completely in check during the last two years of occupation. But it's almost like when the order was given to leave the Taliban decided to take back over..
Like they were you know, waiting for the military to leave!
They were kept in check until we left, yes. They were never defeated because the point wasn't to defeat them, it was to keep the war going forever. I think the U.S. was absolutely right to attack the Taliban; they were sheltering those who had attacked us. But about four years in I realized that we weren't there to win. The industrial complex, and the politicians it donates to, benefited from endless arms sales to replace worn-out equipment and the military brass (if not the common soldiers) benefited from having a combat zone to rotate in and out of, which helps boost their careers. Our military brass is corrupt as hell, as are most of the politicians they're in bed with. And if the military planners couldn't manage a competent tactical withdrawal from the battlefield without leaving all that equipment in the hands of our enemies, they're grossly incompetent. I hate Biden, but I don't blame him for leaving -- the military's been stringing along several presidents before him ("Victory's just around the corner, Mr. President). I do blame him for announcing a symbolic withdrawal date not grounded in reality, for breaking Trump's deal with the Taliban (which gave them a green light to break their side of the deal), and for apparently interfering personally in the whole withdrawal boondoggle. But ultimately it was the generals who are responsible for carrying out the president's orders, and they turned what should have been an orderly withdrawal into a disgraceful rout. History is full of examples of defeated armies that retreated in good order. This is not one of them.
And if you think the U.S wasn't defeated there, ask yourself two questions: (1) Did we meet our goals for victory? (2) Who's running the country now, us or the Taliban?
Quote from: I on April 29, 2022, 01:13:39 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on April 29, 2022, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: I on April 29, 2022, 10:14:29 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on April 29, 2022, 08:30:47 AM
Who knew corrupt as hell governments make weak militaries.
That would certainly explain how a tribe of medieval goat herders with no air force and no armor routed the U.S. military from Afghanistan.
Except you know, that's not what happened at all. The taliban was completely in check during the last two years of occupation. But it's almost like when the order was given to leave the Taliban decided to take back over..
Like they were you know, waiting for the military to leave!
And if you think the U.S wasn't defeated there, ask yourself two questions: (1) Did we meet our goals for victory? (2) Who's running the country now, us or the Taliban?
You are literally moving the goal posts to try and save face since your original comment made no fucking sense in the context of my original post.
I point out that A) The Russians are getting their asses handed to them by the Ukraine (And they are. They really, really are. The Russians are taking far heavier losses than the Ukranians)
B.) I point out this is probably due to Russia's military being horribly inept and corrupt.
You come in and say the Taliban kicked the American Military's ass.
WHICH THEY NEVER FUCKING DID.
While the U.S. Occupied Afghanistan, they were never in control. They never had a military victory. Full stop. They took heavier losses. They loss ground, they did not win.
When the U.S. started LEAVING they moved in.
Maybe next time pay attention to what's being actually talked about, instead of trying to interject like an asshole.
My original point wasn't MURICA FUCK YEAH!
It was "Wow, the Russian Military is far more of a paper tiger than everyone thought."
Seriously, a nation with one of the top militaries in history, one of the top navies in history, lost their flagship to a landlocked third world nation with no navy of their own.
It's absurd how bad Russia is at this war stuff. How the fuck did they win the Chechen war? I guess it's because the Chechens lacked western support. And yet still they fought that war for a decade.
While Russia is still not fighting "All in", its getting there and the fact it has to even debate about going there is pathetic.
Russia pulling out of Kiev is in no dimension, a power move. They are now fighting for what Zelensky was willing to give before, before they displayed that what they really wanted is the capital, and now he is unwilling to give them an inch.
I really hate the way Russia diplomats talk about the situation. They mention honest problems that the USA has, but remain utterly disconnected from the fact that their own goals are utter bullshit and unjustifiable.
"Stahp giving them equipment. Not like we are worried about it or anything, and will totally win, but we will super duper nuke the world if we can't get Ukraine. Also this is purely the USAs fault. NATO is being so paranoid and unfair in how it fears we will invade them or something."
The USA and NATO needs a compitent rival, its just that Russia isn't it.
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 05:12:31 PM
Seriously, a nation with one of the top militaries in history, one of the top navies in history, lost their flagship to a landlocked third world nation with no navy of their own.
Nah, that was an accident. Also its name translates to 'The Moscow' in Russian. So the Moscow sunk and the save face manuever was to say 'But we did that ourselves because we suck so much'.
As for Afghanistan: Its also a 'Will of the People' deal. If most people there preferred the Taliban, as long as it had reasonable patience and arms, they would get them eventually. You can't really bribe or fight a nations real beliefs away. Unless its a 200+ year occupation or genocidal in nature.
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 05:12:31 PM
Seriously, a nation with one of the top militaries in history, one of the top navies in history, lost their flagship to a landlocked third world nation with no navy of their own.
It's absurd how bad Russia is at this war stuff. How the fuck did they win the Chechen war? I guess it's because the Chechens lacked western support. And yet still they fought that war for a decade.
Are you calling Ukraine landlocked?
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 29, 2022, 05:17:23 PMAre you calling Ukraine landlocked?
Its mostly land-locked at the moment in terms of Russian held territory.
Quote from: Orphan81 on April 29, 2022, 03:01:01 PM
My original point wasn't MURICA FUCK YEAH!
It was "Wow, the Russian Military is far more of a paper tiger than everyone thought."
I'll concede that. I did move the goalposts, for which I apologize. But I didn't say that the Taliban defeated America on the battlefield, I said we were routed from the country. It was a self-inflicted rout. I suspect that the generals threw a snit-fit when Biden ordered them out, and their little "project" was over with... so they mismanaged the withdrawal deliberately.
As for the Russian military, I never thought Ukraine was going to be an easy nut to crack in the first place. That was the media and all those people out there thirty years behind the times who still think Russia = the Warsaw Pact. If the Russians thought Ukraine was going to be easy, then their military planners are pretty stupid. That's why I have such a hard time understanding how anybody thought the invasion was going to be such a cake-walk. When I see all this bullshit in the news about how this is like brave little Belgium fighting off the Kaiser, I just laugh. It's more like Germany vs. France -- one side's stronger, yeah, but the disparity is not what most people think. It's a slow grind, which is exactly what I always suspected it would be. It's two modern European armies fighting each other, not a superpower conquering a third-world shithole this time. This is all provided that the war is kept conventional, of course. I know who'll be the loser if nukes start flying.
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 29, 2022, 05:17:23 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 05:12:31 PM
Seriously, a nation with one of the top militaries in history, one of the top navies in history, lost their flagship to a landlocked third world nation with no navy of their own.
It's absurd how bad Russia is at this war stuff. How the fuck did they win the Chechen war? I guess it's because the Chechens lacked western support. And yet still they fought that war for a decade.
Are you calling Ukraine landlocked?
It borders the Black Sea but controls essentially zero percent of the black sea so effectively operates as landlocked.
Quote from: I on April 30, 2022, 11:22:22 AM
Quote from: Orphan81 on April 29, 2022, 03:01:01 PM
My original point wasn't MURICA FUCK YEAH!
It was "Wow, the Russian Military is far more of a paper tiger than everyone thought."
I'll concede that. I did move the goalposts, for which I apologize. But I didn't say that the Taliban defeated America on the battlefield, I said we were routed from the country. It was a self-inflicted rout. I suspect that the generals threw a snit-fit when Biden ordered them out, and their little "project" was over with... so they mismanaged the withdrawal deliberately.
As for the Russian military, I never thought Ukraine was going to be an easy nut to crack in the first place. That was the media and all those people out there thirty years behind the times who still think Russia = the Warsaw Pact. If the Russians thought Ukraine was going to be easy, then their military planners are pretty stupid. That's why I have such a hard time understanding how anybody thought the invasion was going to be such a cake-walk. When I see all this bullshit in the news about how this is like brave little Belgium fighting off the Kaiser, I just laugh. It's more like Germany vs. France -- one side's stronger, yeah, but the disparity is not what most people think. It's a slow grind, which is exactly what I always suspected it would be. It's two modern European armies fighting each other, not a superpower conquering a third-world shithole this time. This is all provided that the war is kept conventional, of course. I know who'll be the loser if nukes start flying.
They thought it would go like Crimea went.
But in no way was it like Germany vs France when this first happened. Russia had more than ten times the military and economy behind them. At the start, it was superpower vs third world nation. They just didn't anticipate MOST of the Ukrainian population was willing to directly fight them including old men and plenty of women civilians. And when you add that many civilians, it starts to equal out to just Russias military in quantity of participants. And then you arm that population with better weapons, and only then do you reach Germany vs France.
I guess what's really shocking is how many Ukrainians were willing to fight for their country. If they were not a patriotic nation before this, they are now. Putin can never conquer them at this point. He did what Ukraine couldn't do without this invasion - give them a permanent unified identity.
What a truly stupid move it was to try and take Kiev rather than focusing just on the two break-away eastern provinces. Russia basically committed the same blunder everyone who had ever invaded Russia in the past has committed.
Ukraine has been HEAVILY backed by the USA with arms and training for a long time. Third world is not what Ukraine is, or was. Maybe on a corruption level, but with regard to access to hi end military gear? No.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 30, 2022, 12:15:59 PM
Ukraine has been HEAVILY backed by the USA with arms and training for a long time. Third world is not what Ukraine is, or was. Maybe on a corruption level, but with regard to access to hi end military gear? No.
Russias military gear is sucky, but its more fundemental bottleneck is the corruption behind maintenance. So I was sure that Ukraine would have the same level of military corruption as before.
But good on them for taking the Russian threat seriously.
This war is far from over sadly. While he can't use them all at once, and most are falling apart, Putin still has massive heavy weapons stocks. If Ukraine can get enough heavy weapons on time, they may be able to turn it around.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 30, 2022, 03:51:24 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 30, 2022, 12:15:59 PM
Ukraine has been HEAVILY backed by the USA with arms and training for a long time. Third world is not what Ukraine is, or was. Maybe on a corruption level, but with regard to access to hi end military gear? No.
Russias military gear is sucky, but its more fundemental bottleneck is the corruption behind maintenance. So I was sure that Ukraine would have the same level of military corruption as before.
But good on them for taking the Russian threat seriously.
This war is far from over sadly. While he can't use them all at once, and most are falling apart, Putin still has massive heavy weapons stocks. If Ukraine can get enough heavy weapons on time, they may be able to turn it around.
Ukraine may have some high tech toys, but it's the poorest country in Europe, per capita. Sustaining much of anything will be hard.
Russia's problem is education fell apart after the fall of the Soviet Union. The generals and other people who are Putin's age are somewhat competent, but the younger generations are not. This was Russia's last chance at expansionism, before the last competents aged out. But it was clearly too late, anyway.
Quote from: Pat on April 30, 2022, 04:07:30 PMUkraine may have some high tech toys, but it's the poorest country in Europe, per capita. Sustaining much of anything will be hard.
Its pretty much entirely dependant on other nations for hardware. But most of eastern europe has an axe to grind so there is some backlog there.
QuoteRussia's problem is -
Russia has way more then 1 problem. Or even 'A' problem that purely defines it. Outside of being a remnant force of the mongol empire instead of the roman empire.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 30, 2022, 07:40:34 PM
Russia has way more then 1 problem. Or even 'A' problem that purely defines it. Outside of being a remnant force of the mongol empire instead of the roman empire.
You want another problem?
Demographic time bomb. Anyone who thinks Russia or China will remain series threats to the US in coming decades should look at their population distribution.
But it's probably the lack of a competent military class that's the proximate cause of Russia's military failure in the Ukraine.
Quote from: Pat on April 30, 2022, 07:49:18 PMBut it's probably the lack of a competent military class that's the proximate cause of Russia's military failure in the Ukraine.
Russia never had a very good military class. Their war strategy against anything thats not purely lesser then them is to drown their opponents with the blood of their conscripts. Russia hasn't had a good military since Napoleonic times. WWII was a combined effort.
Quote from: Pat on April 30, 2022, 07:49:18 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 30, 2022, 07:40:34 PM
Russia has way more then 1 problem. Or even 'A' problem that purely defines it. Outside of being a remnant force of the mongol empire instead of the roman empire.
You want another problem?
Demographic time bomb. Anyone who thinks Russia or China will remain series threats to the US in coming decades should look at their population distribution.
But it's probably the lack of a competent military class that's the proximate cause of Russia's military failure in the Ukraine.
I guess that depends on where we are headed in medical tech. It kinda looks like some aging leaps are on the horizon. But I agree, and aging population is a real issue, particularly for large nations. It's one reason I am in favor of heavier legal immigration into the US. We should for instance welcome anyone with a four year (or masters or doctoral) science, technology, engineering or mathematics degree. Along with their immediate family.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 30, 2022, 08:00:05 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 30, 2022, 07:49:18 PMBut it's probably the lack of a competent military class that's the proximate cause of Russia's military failure in the Ukraine.
Russia never had a very good military class. Their war strategy against anything thats not purely lesser then them is to drown their opponents with the blood of their conscripts. Russia hasn't had a good military since Napoleonic times. WWII was a combined effort.
Greetings!
During World War II--The Great Patriotic War in Russia--the Soviet Union forged a first-class, war-winning military that broke the Nazi war machine and brought victory to the Russian people. From the beginning of Operation Barbarossa, on June 22, 1941, onwards, the Soviet Union fought against approximately 80% of the German Wehrmacht and 60-75% of the German Luftwaffe.
Yes, the Western Allies, most importantly the British Empire and especially the United States, fought valiantly, and contributed critical forces, resources, and operations that helped to decisively defeat the Third Reich and the Axis Powers overall.
Nonetheless, honestly, the absolute war-winning contributions of the Soviet Union in breaking the Nazi Reich simply must be faced--the Allies never really fought against much more than 25% of the Reich's forces.
Such a herculean achievement is all the more startling when one realizes that the Soviet Union suffered the defeat and loss of over 6 MILLION troops in the first 6 months of the Nazi invasion of Russia alone. The road from such losses to four years later crushing the Nazi armies and conquering Berlin is not only astonishing, but legendary.
The Soviet road to victory against the Nazi invaders was not simply a contest of "Drowning the Nazis in the blood of Russian conscripts"--that is somewhat true, but also simplistic and avoids the realization that without numerous qualitative improvements, brilliant strategies, the creation of excellent equipment and war machines--that such mere numbers of troops would have been insufficient. The Russian T-34 tank was arguably the best tank produced by any nation throughout the war. In terms of armour, cross-country maneuverability, speed, simple maintenance, raw combat firepower, and also of critical importance, the ease in which the T-34 could be mass-produced--places the T-34 tank in a class of its own. Only the American M4 Sherman could be considered of similar stature, and yet, the Sherman has several major features that make the tank distinctly inferior to the T-34. In fact, when receiving the Sherman through Lend Lease convoys, the Russians considered the Sherman to be junk and entirely worthless in waging war against the Germans on the Eastern Front. The Sherman was sent to border and rear area guard duties to free up T-34 tanks for the serious fighting at the front. The JS Heavy Ranks, the SU-100 Tank Destroyers and Self-Propelled Guns, placed the Red Army in the first rank as a modern, brutally effective armoured force. The Germans, and certainly the Allies, were the students, while the Russian were the masters of armoured warfare and armoured technology.
The German armoured efforts, such as the famous Tiger, Panther, Tiger II, Stug III Assault Gun, as well as the Jagdpanzers, the Jagdpanthers and Jagdtigers--as good as they were, they were ultimately industrial and scientific responses to what the Russians had already accomplished and were deploying on the battlefield. Ultimately, on several critical levels, the German innovations and inventions were failures, however. They were all suffering from over-complicated uber-machinery, unnecessary technology, unrealistic resource components, unreliable maintenance, and absolute pathetic production schedules and capabilities. The Germans were pushing it just to make 500 Panthers a month. The Russians could produce four times such numbers of T-34's alone--not counting hundreds, thousands of KV heavy tanks, JS Heavy Tanks, assault guns, and tank destroyers. The Russians would go on to produce something like 60 to 80,000 T-34 tanks *alone* by 1945. The German production of tanks by comparison was absolutely pathetic and entirely inadequate for the demands of fighting war on the Eastern Front. When adding in the avalanche of American and Allied armies in North Africa, Italy, and then on the Western Front in France, it becomes easy to see why the German Panzer forces were consistently outmatched and doomed to defeat. It is a credit to the Germans years of battle experience, tactical training programs, and the tactical brilliance and skills of the German Officer's leadership and the ruthless skill and professionalism of the German soldiers that allowed the Reich to last as long as it did against such odds.
In artillery, the Soviets created a world-class artillery force, equipped with a wide range of deadly and efficient weaponry, from the 76-mm anti-tank gun, to much larger guns and howitzers. Again, also easily manufactured on a mass scale, and deployed in crushing numbers of 200 guns per Kilometer. In addition, the Russians also had the Katyusha mobile Rocket Launcher, and employed such advanced rocket forces en masse. Again, in terms of operational mass firepower, only the American could be considered peers. The Americans likewise created many innovations and advances in artillery forces, technology, and deployment, and while the American and Russian forces were at different aspects different from each other in some areas of emphasis, they should be considered roughly comparable.
In Infantry weapons and operations, the Russian had early on developed their own PPS submachine guns, other crew-served light machine guns, anti-tank grenade launchers, assault guns, field rifles and sniper rifles. The Russians didn't need any lessons in these areas either. Their equipment was first rate. Tactically, the Russian troops were always fierce in defense as well as attack, good at camouflage, field fortifications, night attacks, scouting and infiltration. The Russians were again, different tactically from the Germans, and often not as smooth, or as elegant in their maneuvers, though the Russians possessed the curious ability for the Germans to barely breathe, and here or there along the front, a small recon spearhead in the matter of a few hours would mushroom into a considerable combined-arms force of well-equipped infantry and armoured forces, posing a swift threat everywhere.
In the Air War, here too, the Russians went from being entirely annihilated to ruling the skies. The Russians had excellent Yak Fighters, Stormavik Ground Support attack aircraft, as well as a wide range of excellent tactical bombers and even heavy strategic bombers. By 1944 and 1945, the Russian Air Force was not only of excellent quality in the range of different combat aircraft, but approaching American levels of aircraft production. The Russian Air Force had tens of thousands of aircraft. Only the American air forces could be said to field more combat aircraft.
The Red Army created excellent armies, filled out with well-trained, rugged, and well-equippe troops. The Red Army soldiers were well-supplied with all manner of small arms, grenades, machine guns, machine pistols, heavy winter overcoats, Ushanka Fur hats, gloves, packs and so on. The Russians also did not skimp on tools and engineering equipment. Lightning quick, the Russian could forge a bridgehead across a large river, and within hours have tanks and troops pouring into the German's lightly-defended rear lines.
At every step, the Red Army improved its tactical operations, air/ground coordination, coordination with artillery forces, and combined arms troops. The Russians were also always ready and well-equipped to dig trenches, defend as needed, and storm the Nazis in large cities and engage in mass hand-to-hand combat--and WIN.
The fact is, the Russians created and forged an outstanding military force in World War II. The Red Army did most of the heavy lifting in breaking the Nazi war machine and winning World War II in Europe.
My conclusions are not only supported by outtanding scholars, including more than a few United States Army Officers, over the years, but also the assessments of more than a few British scholars. In addition, there are the testimony and asessments of German officers themselves, such as General Heinz Guderian, General Erich Von Mellenthin, Field-Marshal Erich Von Manstein, amongst others. In the case of the German officers--they were all first-hand sources as warriors and commanders actually fighting against the Red Army during World War II.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 09:41:16 PMDuring World War II--The Great Patriotic War in Russia--the Soviet Union forged a first-class, war-winning military that broke the Nazi war machine and brought victory to the Russian people.
Ukrainian here. I know that the USSR army won. But to say 'First Class' is a misnomer. Its a myth purpetuated by both Soviet Propaganda and the Germans after the war.
For context: If Germany was not genocidal in intent, and Russian people where not willing to trade EXTREMLY unfavorably to Germans, they would have normally surrended many times over.
QuoteThe Russian T-34 tank was arguably the best tank produced by any nation throughout the war. In terms of armour, cross-country maneuverability, speed, simple maintenance, raw combat firepower, and also of critical importance, the ease in which the T-34 could be mass-produced--places the T-34 tank in a class of its own.
For instance: This is a myth (https://youtu.be/CIZ6PFYUM5o). This is the German Generals upping the fear of the Soviets to get cushy jobs in NATO after the fall of the Reich.
Thats not to dismiss Russias contributions. And especially the contributions of the people that the high command sicked on the german war machine.
And I can't find the video by Steven Kotkin right now that just goes into the realistic logistics that went into the war.
I mean there where improvements. There had to be. But to call what beat the germans 'First class" is wrong. Its more that Germany pissed off 70% of the world that had more manufacturing capabilities then themselves. They did not quit while they where ahead.
Edit: More resources on the T-34 (https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-t-34-in-wwii-the-legend-vs-the-performance/).
Point is the basic ratios of win to lose is the germans where absolutely destroying the tanks/ the poorly built T-34s where falling apart faster then the Russians could produce them. And each tank destroyed is more innocents dead, and new crews that need to be trained.
What I mean by 'Drowned in Blood', isn't that the USSR was some orc horde, utterly incompitent and overwhelmed the Germans by pure numbers. What I mean is that Russia historically has a military with HORRIBLE loss records for its people, without said people revolting, when other nations would have just surrendered. Russian people are simply more tolerant to abuses by their upper leadership, and their upper leadership is simply more comfortable abusing their people.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 30, 2022, 09:58:24 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 09:41:16 PMDuring World War II--The Great Patriotic War in Russia--the Soviet Union forged a first-class, war-winning military that broke the Nazi war machine and brought victory to the Russian people.
Ukrainian here. I know that the USSR army won. But to say 'First Class' is a misnomer. Its a myth purpetuated by both Soviet Propaganda and the Germans after the war.
For context: If Germany was not genocidal in intent, and Russian people where not willing to trade EXTREMLY unfavorably to Germans, they would have normally surrended many times over.
QuoteThe Russian T-34 tank was arguably the best tank produced by any nation throughout the war. In terms of armour, cross-country maneuverability, speed, simple maintenance, raw combat firepower, and also of critical importance, the ease in which the T-34 could be mass-produced--places the T-34 tank in a class of its own.
For instance: This is a myth (https://youtu.be/CIZ6PFYUM5o). This is the German Generals upping the fear of the Soviets to get cushy jobs in NATO after the fall of the Reich.
Thats not to dismiss Russias contributions. And especially the contributions of the people that the high command sicked on the german war machine.
And I can't find the video by Steven Kotkin right now that just goes into the realistic logistics that went into the war.
I mean there where improvements. There had to be. But to call what beat the germans 'First class" is wrong. Its more that Germany pissed off 70% of the world that had more manufacturing capabilities then themselves. They did not quit while they where ahead.
Edit: More resources on the T-34 (https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-t-34-in-wwii-the-legend-vs-the-performance/).
Point is the basic ratios of win to lose is the germans where absolutely destroying the tanks/ the poorly built T-34s where falling apart faster then the Russians could produce them. And each tank destroyed is more innocents dead, and new crews that need to be trained.
What I mean by 'Drowned in Blood', isn't that the USSR was some orc horde, utterly incompitent and overwhelmed the Germans by pure numbers. What I mean is that Russia historically has a military with HORRIBLE loss records for its people, without said people revolting, when other nations would have just surrendered. Russian people are simply more tolerant to abuses by their upper leadership, and their upper leadership is simply more comfortable abusing their people.
Greetings!
Interesting, Shrieking Banshee. I can't say I have ever heard of "Lazerpig'. *Laughing*
I've read probably most historians that have written books on World War II, and especially the Eastern Front, from the 1950's to the early 2000's. I own many of them as well. My own scholarship concerning World War II, but especially the war on the Eastern Front between Germany and Russia, was especially enlightened by the works of Colonel David Glantz (US Army). Colonel Glantz has been eye-opening--and even revolutionary--concerning Western scholarship about the Great Patriotic War, providing great illumination and a thorough re-assessment and transformation of the West's knowledge and attitude towards the Russian's contributions and achievements in the war against Nazi Germany during the war. While some of the technical aspects that "Lazerpig" discusses are persuasive, and I'd grant as being accurate, I don't suspect that Colonel Glantz would agree with "Laerpig's" interpretations of such data, or the overall conclusions.
I have also as I mentioned, read Heinz Guderian, Von Mellenthin, Von Manstein, and more German officers, who all share and discuss similar experiences during the war. In addition, much of their data gets quite detailed and technical as well. After all, General Guderian invented Blitzkrieg, and is considered the progenitor and founder of the World War II German Panzer forces. Guderian, Mellenthin, Manstein--none of them gained cushy posts in NATO military postings after the war, so that motivation and assessment of the German Generals' analysis, commentaries, and memoirs seems decidedly weak, to me.
"Lazerpig's" interpretation also pushed me to consider, if the T-34 was such a shit tank, according to him--it honestly begs the question of in wonderment of how the Russians managed to ever get past Stalingrad then, let alone roll the Nazi armies back to Berlin. After Stalingrad, in numerous battles, Velikye Lukie, Kharkhov, across the Dnieper, Kursk, the liberation of the Baltics, rolling back the German armies from Leningrad, from the Crimea, and marching the Red Army victoriously into Rumania, Hungary, Poland, and into Germany itself, there were times when the Red Army had only rough equality with the Wehrmacht, such as at Kursk--and yet, the Russians took on the Wehrmacht's best--and won. The 1st SS Leibestandarte Panzer Division, 2nd SS Das Reich, and the others, with their Panthers, their Tigers--they still died. They still were crushed by the Red Army and sent packing. Again, if the Russians had such a junk tank as "Lazerpig" insists, it doesn't stand to reason that such immense victories by the Red Army would have been possible, let alone an increasingly brutal avalanche that the Nazis were helpless to resist.
I'm also reminded of the assessment and scholarship of many other historians, for example, both American and British. Such historians' analysis of the T-34 tank, Russian armoured forces, the evolution of the Red Army--taken in sum would also disagree with "Lazerpig", and also such historians' analysis concerning the different German Panzers, their strengths and weaknesses, and the overall problems with German scientific and industrial efforts, are also in unity. German tanks were overly complicated, often surprisingly poorly engineered concerning their engines, transmissions, and so on, and also the production of rare components, and uncoordinated manufacturing. The fact is, both the Russians and the Americans at the strategic level, made strategic choices of producing mass-production equipment, weapons, and machines as a huge priority. Not just for tanks, either, but also fighter aircraft, bombers, just about everything. The same kind of strategic foresight cannot be aid to be operating with the Germans for example. Again, whether it was the Tiger tank, the uber German U-boats, German aircraft--all of their stuff was typically designed with a OCD-like goal for Cadillac-level quality, but entirely bone-headed when it comes to resource management, simplicity of operation, ease of maintenance, or suitability for large, mass-scale production. That is a recurring failure in strategic management of Nazi Germany across the board with military forces in general. Interestingly, General Heinz Guderian discusses exactly such struggles when he was appointed by the Fuhrer to be the Inspector General of Panzer Forces, where Guderian had to inspect German production facilities and coordinate German tank factories with supplying the Wehrmacht. Again, in contrast, the British and American historians are united in describing the brutal simplicity of the Russian's T-34, and often compare its technical features with the features typically found with German Panzers. These realities didn't come from Russian propaganda.
EDITED: I'm also reminded of again, Guderian's own testimony about the performance of early German Panzers fighting against the Russian's T-34. I don't have Guderian's Panzer Leader book at my elbow right now, but I think he essentially said that the Panther was developed as a direct result of the German's experiences against the T-34. If the T-34 was as much junk as "Lazerpig" insists, why bother investing in the development and production of the Panther? Again, according to "Lazerpig's" interpretation, if the Panzer III and Panzer IV's were doing just fine against the T-34--and they didn't desperately need units of 88-mm artillery to help them out--there wouldn't be any need or demand for the Panther or the Tiger. British and American historians also corroborate the motivations of the German in producing the Panther and Tiger--in response to getting jacked by the T-34. British and American historians don't compare the Panzer III or Panzer IV's favourably with the T-34, either. Or the American M4 Sherman, for that matter. General Patton even discusses the Sherman's assets and limitations in fighting against the Panthers and Tigers. Importantly, *during the war*--not afterwards--the American high command acknowledged the design assets and superiority of the Russian T-34 in comparison to the Sherman and other Allied tanks, such as what the British deployed. There was a real-world scandal about American casualties in the Sherman after Normandy in particular, and Allied commanders discussed the assets and advantages of the Russian tanks, and the German tank's developed to deal with what the Russians were doing. So, there was clearly an awareness even at the time--not after the fact or due to propaganda--that the Russians, and the Germans both, were more advanced in armour development. There were a host of technical, strategic, and yes, even propaganda reasons why America didn't change gears and make a different tank than the Sherman at the time in response--though the British put together an upgrade known as the "Firely"--an up-armoured and up-gunned Sherman. The development and deployment of the Pershing tank though--by early 1945 into Europe--shows that America had come to grips with the Russian and German tank developments. The Pershing was huge and powerful, with formidable armour, wide tracks, and armed with a 90-mm high velocity cannon.
I also believe that yes, the Russians were fighting and suffering for their love of the Motherland, far more so than out of any kind of devotion to Communism or Stalin. I agree, the Nazis declaration of genocide against all of Russia was a powerful motivator. In reviewing my sources, inspiration, and scholarship, I am humbled, glad, and reminded that it wasn't "The World" or "The Allies" that turned back the Nazi armies in the frozen snow at the edges of Moscow, in 1941--it was the Russians. Likewise, fighting step by step, trench by trench, field by field through the Ukraine, to Crimea, and beyond, clawing and making the Germans bleed like pigs every step of the way as they advanced--it wasn't the Allies, but millions of Slavs; of Ukrainians; of Russians. A million Russian troops fought at Moscow. Another million grappled with the Nazis in the blasted streets of Stalingrad. I think a million and a half dug into the Ukrainian fields at Kursk. And a million Russians blasted through the gates of Berlin, too, Shrieking Banshee. Fucking amazing, and inspiring, my friend.
'They did not quit while they were ahead". *Laughing* Damn right, they didn't! They definitely fucked around and found out!
I agree that the Russians have always been casualty-heavy so to speak. Even when fighting with swords and muskets in Napoleon's time, the Russians suffered huge losses. No, the Red Army wasn't an Orc Horde. *Laughing* That made me laugh Shrieking Banshee. In my own studies through the years, I have come to appreciate that yes, while the Germans often like to belittle the Russians as just dumping hordes of soldiers at them--it has been through British and particularly American scholarship, that I learned that the Red Army, by 1944 and 1945, was transformed. It was humming, and was a ferocious, and highly-skilled war machine. It made operational as well as organizational transformations, combined arms, artillery, an so on. Razor sharp, and deadly.
Good stuff, my friend.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 01, 2022, 04:14:17 AM"Lazerpig's" interpretation also pushed me to consider, if the T-34 was such a shit tank, according to him--it honestly begs the question of in wonderment of how the Russians managed to ever get past Stalingrad then, let alone roll the Nazi armies back to Berlin.
The guys video is mostly comedic. It overplays the T-34 problems, but that was just the one I had at hand at the moment. But what I mean is that if 82% of the tanks where lost (~40% can be chalked up to just poor build quality). Thats just a hard statistic. Thats a higher ratio then just about every other tank during the war produced in that quantity. Thats higher ratio then the germans, and they lost the war!
But the Sherman is a great example. There is a scandal because of the casualties number. But that sort of scandal just doesn't matter in a USSR army if the results are worth it.
What I mean is that life isn't a videogame. Russia wasn't playing Zerglings to Germanies Terrans (or whatever that 3rd faction is). "Quality is a quantity of its own" doesn't work when every new soldier still needs to be trained and needs to pick up experience from 0 because the last tank crew died.
As to answer the question: There was more then 1 tank that the Soviets used (IS 2 for instance). And you can still win a war if you have 2nd rate equipment if there is other stuff happening alongside it. Allied denial of supplies, equipment failures, and the germans just completly overstretched themselves as their own logistics people said what they where doing was going to be impossible.
I just cannot for the life of me call what the USSR did a '1st rate army'. I can't call something that just counts on massive reserves of personel to die for the high commands mistakes to "Teach itself" as "1st rate". Yes by the end of the war it had become allot more efficient. And it won through good tactics and such. No amount of bodies would be enough to compensate for poor tactical and strategic performance.
But Russia was by and large playing a defensive war in their own territory, while germany is a country less then a third of its size that had attempted to conquer the whole world.
Edit: To stress again: The USSR army was very effective. But it not 1st rate.
Quote from: Mistwell on April 30, 2022, 12:07:30 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 29, 2022, 05:17:23 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 05:12:31 PM
Seriously, a nation with one of the top militaries in history, one of the top navies in history, lost their flagship to a landlocked third world nation with no navy of their own.
It's absurd how bad Russia is at this war stuff. How the fuck did they win the Chechen war? I guess it's because the Chechens lacked western support. And yet still they fought that war for a decade.
Are you calling Ukraine landlocked?
It borders the Black Sea but controls essentially zero percent of the black sea so effectively operates as landlocked.
Somebody should have told the Ukraine that they operated as a landlocked nation-state before they sunk the Moskva.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61114843
(https://images.unian.net/photos/2022_04/1649977450-2998.png?0.4694282894555657)
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 01, 2022, 01:37:43 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 30, 2022, 12:07:30 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 29, 2022, 05:17:23 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 05:12:31 PM
Seriously, a nation with one of the top militaries in history, one of the top navies in history, lost their flagship to a landlocked third world nation with no navy of their own.
It's absurd how bad Russia is at this war stuff. How the fuck did they win the Chechen war? I guess it's because the Chechens lacked western support. And yet still they fought that war for a decade.
Are you calling Ukraine landlocked?
It borders the Black Sea but controls essentially zero percent of the black sea so effectively operates as landlocked.
Somebody should have told the Ukraine that they operated as a landlocked nation-state before they sunk the Moskva.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61114843
(https://images.unian.net/photos/2022_04/1649977450-2998.png?0.4694282894555657)
Yeah Jeff that's what we're talking about.
Quote from: Mistwell on April 30, 2022, 08:53:16 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 30, 2022, 07:49:18 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 30, 2022, 07:40:34 PM
Russia has way more then 1 problem. Or even 'A' problem that purely defines it. Outside of being a remnant force of the mongol empire instead of the roman empire.
You want another problem?
Demographic time bomb. Anyone who thinks Russia or China will remain series threats to the US in coming decades should look at their population distribution.
But it's probably the lack of a competent military class that's the proximate cause of Russia's military failure in the Ukraine.
I guess that depends on where we are headed in medical tech. It kinda looks like some aging leaps are on the horizon. But I agree, and aging population is a real issue, particularly for large nations. It's one reason I am in favor of heavier legal immigration into the US. We should for instance welcome anyone with a four year (or masters or doctoral) science, technology, engineering or mathematics degree. Along with their immediate family.
Hard pass. Incentivize Americans to have more kids and be more technically driven.
Quote from: oggsmash on May 01, 2022, 02:29:54 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 30, 2022, 08:53:16 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 30, 2022, 07:49:18 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 30, 2022, 07:40:34 PM
Russia has way more then 1 problem. Or even 'A' problem that purely defines it. Outside of being a remnant force of the mongol empire instead of the roman empire.
You want another problem?
Demographic time bomb. Anyone who thinks Russia or China will remain series threats to the US in coming decades should look at their population distribution.
But it's probably the lack of a competent military class that's the proximate cause of Russia's military failure in the Ukraine.
I guess that depends on where we are headed in medical tech. It kinda looks like some aging leaps are on the horizon. But I agree, and aging population is a real issue, particularly for large nations. It's one reason I am in favor of heavier legal immigration into the US. We should for instance welcome anyone with a four year (or masters or doctoral) science, technology, engineering or mathematics degree. Along with their immediate family.
Hard pass. Incentivize Americans to have more kids and be more technically driven.
Good luck with that. I mean I agree with incentivizing kids to be more technically driven. And I think the #1 method of promoting that is NASA and the manned space program. Put Americans on Mars and more people will go to college for science degrees. But we don't seem willing to do that. Working with what we realistically seem willing to do, I think brain draining other nations is not a bad choice. It's kinda how we built the nation to this point, so I don't see why it wouldn't continue to work for us.
Quote from: Mistwell on May 01, 2022, 02:47:58 PM
Good luck with that. I mean I agree with incentivizing kids to be more technically driven. And I think the #1 method of promoting that is NASA and the manned space program. Put Americans on Mars and more people will go to college for science degrees. But we don't seem willing to do that. Working with what we realistically seem willing to do, I think brain draining other nations is not a bad choice. It's kinda how we built the nation to this point, so I don't see why it wouldn't continue to work for us.
That partly requires a degree of forced assimilation to be in any means functional as well. Im not inherently against immigration, but you have to be willing to play ball with american culture as well.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2022, 04:12:21 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 01, 2022, 02:47:58 PM
Good luck with that. I mean I agree with incentivizing kids to be more technically driven. And I think the #1 method of promoting that is NASA and the manned space program. Put Americans on Mars and more people will go to college for science degrees. But we don't seem willing to do that. Working with what we realistically seem willing to do, I think brain draining other nations is not a bad choice. It's kinda how we built the nation to this point, so I don't see why it wouldn't continue to work for us.
That partly requires a degree of forced assimilation to be in any means functional as well. Im not inherently against immigration, but you have to be willing to play ball with american culture as well.
You don't need to to force anything. If someone traveled thousand of miles, and risked all kinds of dangers and possible rejection, it's a safe bet they think the US is a much better place to be than where ever they came from. All you need to do is stop the people who are deliberately hobbling assimilation.
Quote from: Pat on May 01, 2022, 04:46:07 PM
You don't need to to force anything. If someone traveled thousand of miles, and risked all kinds of dangers and possible rejection, it's a safe bet they think the US is a much better place to be than where ever they came from. All you need to do is stop the people who are deliberately hobbling assimilation.
Not everyone travels hundreds of miles though. Though yeah, forced assimilation is too much.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2022, 04:12:21 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 01, 2022, 02:47:58 PM
Good luck with that. I mean I agree with incentivizing kids to be more technically driven. And I think the #1 method of promoting that is NASA and the manned space program. Put Americans on Mars and more people will go to college for science degrees. But we don't seem willing to do that. Working with what we realistically seem willing to do, I think brain draining other nations is not a bad choice. It's kinda how we built the nation to this point, so I don't see why it wouldn't continue to work for us.
That partly requires a degree of forced assimilation to be in any means functional as well. Im not inherently against immigration, but you have to be willing to play ball with american culture as well.
Agreed, we need to incentivize assimilation as well. We used to be pretty good at that too.
My Dad's a chemical engineer and he believes the decline in technical inclination is due to the market dominance of Lego over Mechano. Mechano is all about screws and motors and gears. I tried to get my oldest Mechano for Christmas one year, he never even touched it but loved Lego. Now he's 25 and no engineer. So maybe there's something to it.
Quote from: David Johansen on May 02, 2022, 12:36:26 AMNow he's 25 and no engineer. So maybe there's something to it.
Was it a Lego Technic set? If yes, then the fault lies with Lego. If no, then the fault lies with you.
The comparison with WW2 is apposite - the Soviet Army of WW2 was pretty efficient (especially at the operational-strategic level) by the end of the war. But during the Russo-Finnish war (1939-40), the Russian "colossus" was humbled and the expected quick-and-easy victory took far longer and with far more casualties than it should have.
And the inefficiencies of 1939 were similar to the ones in 2022 - poor maintenance, conscripts with no training, officers who don't know what they are doing, etc. In both 1939 & 2022, many of the problems were caused by "yes" men reporting up the chain what their superiors wanted to hear. In 1939 it was because to report otherwise was to invite death or imprisonment, in 2022 it was to maintain the flow of money that could be made by stealing the maintenance, training and fuel money and lining their own pockets.
The conscripts of 2022 were apparently told they were on manoeuvres, not going to war - and Putin was expecting minimal resistance thanks to awful intelligence (again, lots of money being siphoned off here too, apparently). There didn't appear to be a "Plan B" if this didn't work, and the logistics to support a "real" war just don't seem to have been there (lots of pictures of stranded vehicles - even entire columns of them).
Also, the Ukrainians have been apparently receiving real-time intelligence from NATO/U.S. about Russian attacks, which means that their air-defences have been able to avoid being targeted by the Russians - lots of bombs dropped on empty fields where the equipment used to be, but no longer was.
To Shark - your info on the East Front is slightly out-of-date. Glantz is awesome, and I love his work - but there's some other stuff out there too - Stahel, Buttar & Tooze are all good.
On the T-34 front. It was ahead of its time, but by no means perfect. It did, however, suit the Russian army perfectly. Rugged and simple to operate/maintain it did have a few flaws which were worked on throughout the war. It was designed to go about 400 miles (the engine fell apart after that). That was because the Russians worked out that it would probably have been destroyed by the enemy at that point. There plan was to replace it with a new build tank and if it was instead not destroyed, it would have a full factory rebuild and be pressed back into service (or used for spares if there wasn't time to rebuild it). So why waste money/materials on a tank that would probably have been destroyed by then! Talk about planned obsolescence!
The Russians did like the Sherman, they put it in their exploitation units as it was so reliable. It was the M3 Lee/Grant that they hated (a grave for 7 brothers, I think they called it). Strangely, they also loved the Valentine tank which was obsolete by the time it was introduced! They used it as a light tank, and apparently it shone in that role.
A big, big problem many militaries have (and not just the U.S.) is misuse of systems. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
The Bradley and Stryker vehicles suffered from that mindset. There are a LOT of retards who think 'it has armor and a gun, it's a tank'. And want to use them to fight tanks, which... doesn't work well.
Another key factor in the frankly pathetic performance of the Russian military is a lack of NCOs. The Russian armed forces are still structured as they were in the Cold War, WWII, and WWI: lots of officers, and small NCO corps, and lots of enlisted. A modern military cannot be structured in such a fashion and expect to win wars.
Why? Most modern (Western) militaries are structured to where officers give the orders, NCOs make sure the orders are carried out, and the enlisted execute those orders. There's a clear division of labor and responsibility in the command structure. It leaves the officers to be concerned with priorities of a higher, strategic level. NCOs are to make sure the overall command is carried out, but are the ones who dwell on the details at a tactical level. Plus it's instilled (at least in the US military) that officers take advice from senior experienced NCOs in their plans.
You have none of that in the Russian military. You have officers performing tasks that NO officer in their right might should be performing on the modern battlefield. You have Brigade commanders performing tasks that a company Sergeant should be doing. Plus, the lack of NCOs leads to a lack of discipline among the enlisted. Believe me, I know. A bunch of unsupervised Joes will do whatever they want. It like herding cats.
This has led to desertions, surrenders, and all out near fratricide (a Russian brigade commander was purposely ran over with a tank by his own troops. Don't know if he survived). On top of that, with all of the officers doing jobs they shouldn't be doing, you have a record number of Generals being killed on the battlefield.
NCOs are the backbone of a modern military. NO NCOs, no backbone. Therefore Russia's army has no backbone. 'nuff said.
I am interested by how these assessments of Russia compare to assessments from before the war. Back in January, we had been discussing the possibility of war in the Biden thread.
Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2022, 02:24:59 PM
Our economy is shit. Our military is very weakened from being pumped full of SJW's.
In a fight, Russia won't be sending "Amy with two mommies that marched at a gay pride event in high school"
The Russians will be sending Ivan, from their Army Recruitment commercial.
Beyond that, Russia isn't Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, or Syria, or some other weak nation. They have all the toys! And, Russia has been training hard-core. Anyone that wants to provoke Russia into a war is fucking insane. Respect the treaties, respect their country, respect THEIR national security interests.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/biden-s-cascade-of-failure!/msg1204068/#msg1204068
Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2022, 06:50:33 PM
NATO and the US get their asses blown out everytime by the Russians. So, who the fuck are we kidding? Unless you can unload 20 heavy Tank Divisions and 20 Infantry Divisions, backed up by 5,000 combat aircraft ready to go, it's all just a pathetic little game of a little dog yapping, thinking it can run with the Big Dogs. America is not in BIG DOG SHAPE, and neither is NATO.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/biden-s-cascade-of-failure!/msg1204104/#msg1204104
I think these overestimated the Russian capability. I suggested that Ukraine could become a quagmire for the Russians, and SHARK responded,
Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2022, 10:46:48 PM
Ultimately, because it is Russia's front yard, we had better care about what THEY think, because they have 300 divisions that can make us care.
In any kind of conflict in Ukraine, Russia holds all of the advantages. It isn't anything at all like Afghanistan. Uraine has roads and highways and infrastructure. You know that lots of Russians have relatives living in Ukraine, right? Everyone speaks Russian and Ukrainian. Russia *built* everything in Ukraine. They have all the maps. The Russians know everything about Ukraine.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/biden-s-cascade-of-failure!/msg1204129/#msg1204129
Quote from: jhkim on May 02, 2022, 01:04:04 PM
I am interested by how these assessments of Russia compare to assessments from before the war. Back in January, we had been discussing the possibility of war in the Biden thread.
Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2022, 02:24:59 PM
Our economy is shit. Our military is very weakened from being pumped full of SJW's.
In a fight, Russia won't be sending "Amy with two mommies that marched at a gay pride event in high school"
The Russians will be sending Ivan, from their Army Recruitment commercial.
Beyond that, Russia isn't Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, or Syria, or some other weak nation. They have all the toys! And, Russia has been training hard-core. Anyone that wants to provoke Russia into a war is fucking insane. Respect the treaties, respect their country, respect THEIR national security interests.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/biden-s-cascade-of-failure!/msg1204068/#msg1204068
Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2022, 06:50:33 PM
NATO and the US get their asses blown out everytime by the Russians. So, who the fuck are we kidding? Unless you can unload 20 heavy Tank Divisions and 20 Infantry Divisions, backed up by 5,000 combat aircraft ready to go, it's all just a pathetic little game of a little dog yapping, thinking it can run with the Big Dogs. America is not in BIG DOG SHAPE, and neither is NATO.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/biden-s-cascade-of-failure!/msg1204104/#msg1204104
I think these overestimated the Russian capability. I suggested that Ukraine could become a quagmire for the Russians, and SHARK responded,
Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2022, 10:46:48 PM
Ultimately, because it is Russia's front yard, we had better care about what THEY think, because they have 300 divisions that can make us care.
In any kind of conflict in Ukraine, Russia holds all of the advantages. It isn't anything at all like Afghanistan. Uraine has roads and highways and infrastructure. You know that lots of Russians have relatives living in Ukraine, right? Everyone speaks Russian and Ukrainian. Russia *built* everything in Ukraine. They have all the maps. The Russians know everything about Ukraine.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/biden-s-cascade-of-failure!/msg1204129/#msg1204129
I believe a lot of us commented on how we were surprised that Russia's military was so severely hollowed out.
Which is more than you'll ever do, you fucking groomer.
Quote from: jhkim on May 02, 2022, 01:04:04 PM
I am interested by how these assessments of Russia compare to assessments from before the war. Back in January, we had been discussing the possibility of war in the Biden thread.
Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2022, 02:24:59 PM
Our economy is shit. Our military is very weakened from being pumped full of SJW's.
In a fight, Russia won't be sending "Amy with two mommies that marched at a gay pride event in high school"
The Russians will be sending Ivan, from their Army Recruitment commercial.
Beyond that, Russia isn't Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, or Syria, or some other weak nation. They have all the toys! And, Russia has been training hard-core. Anyone that wants to provoke Russia into a war is fucking insane. Respect the treaties, respect their country, respect THEIR national security interests.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/biden-s-cascade-of-failure!/msg1204068/#msg1204068
Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2022, 06:50:33 PM
NATO and the US get their asses blown out everytime by the Russians. So, who the fuck are we kidding? Unless you can unload 20 heavy Tank Divisions and 20 Infantry Divisions, backed up by 5,000 combat aircraft ready to go, it's all just a pathetic little game of a little dog yapping, thinking it can run with the Big Dogs. America is not in BIG DOG SHAPE, and neither is NATO.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/biden-s-cascade-of-failure!/msg1204104/#msg1204104
I think these overestimated the Russian capability. I suggested that Ukraine could become a quagmire for the Russians, and SHARK responded,
Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2022, 10:46:48 PM
Ultimately, because it is Russia's front yard, we had better care about what THEY think, because they have 300 divisions that can make us care.
In any kind of conflict in Ukraine, Russia holds all of the advantages. It isn't anything at all like Afghanistan. Uraine has roads and highways and infrastructure. You know that lots of Russians have relatives living in Ukraine, right? Everyone speaks Russian and Ukrainian. Russia *built* everything in Ukraine. They have all the maps. The Russians know everything about Ukraine.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/biden-s-cascade-of-failure!/msg1204129/#msg1204129
Greetings!
Indeed, Jhkim, the various levels of incompetence, logistics problems--and as Blackstone so rightly highlighted--the problems that the Russian military has had, most particularly with a strangely weak and inefficient cadre of NCO's--has contributed enormously to the Russian military difficulties in Ukraine.
As for earlier strategic assessments, I don't make commentary or get into debates about topics that I am ignorant or uneducated on. Over the last 10 years or so, various US and NATO commands have conducted military maneuvers and war-games, hypothetically having Blue Teams and Red Teams. During such events, and there have been several, posing hypothetical wars involving Russia, the conclusions have been that the US and NATO gets fucked the majority of the time. Likewise, the US Pacific Fleet has done the same type of exercises posing China as the enemy force--and such results have created no small degree of alarm, criticism, and scandal, as also in the majority of such hypothetical wars, China comes out on top, and America gets fucking blasted.
I'm not going to hunt for the actual links, articles, interviews, and soon, but I have read them and seen them. For veterans especially, we are usually familiar with these things and stay up on the topics and developments. The various war games and exercises also illuminate explicit weaknesses and problems that we know we have, and have experienced and witnessed. The assessments of *enemy weaknesses* or even strengths, is sometimes variable. However, any veteran knows--as well as well-educated historians and military analysts--*underestimating* an enemy gets you conquered and fucked. It isn't a video game, and there are no pause, save, and reload game. It's game fucking over.
There are always some degree of "Unknowables" as well as unforeseen problems and challenges. Those are always difficult to quantify or predict. Unexpected benefits or victories are always welcome, and a blessing--though it can prove extremely fatal to underestimate an enemy.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: blackstone on May 02, 2022, 11:30:43 AM
Another key factor in the frankly pathetic performance of the Russian military is a lack of NCOs. The Russian armed forces are still structured as they were in the Cold War, WWII, and WWI: lots of officers, and small NCO corps, and lots of enlisted. A modern military cannot be structured in such a fashion and expect to win wars.
Why? Most modern (Western) militaries are structured to where officers give the orders, NCOs make sure the orders are carried out, and the enlisted execute those orders. There's a clear division of labor and responsibility in the command structure. It leaves the officers to be concerned with priorities of a higher, strategic level. NCOs are to make sure the overall command is carried out, but are the ones who dwell on the details at a tactical level. Plus it's instilled (at least in the US military) that officers take advice from senior experienced NCOs in their plans.
You have none of that in the Russian military. You have officers performing tasks that NO officer in their right might should be performing on the modern battlefield. You have Brigade commanders performing tasks that a company Sergeant should be doing. Plus, the lack of NCOs leads to a lack of discipline among the enlisted. Believe me, I know. A bunch of unsupervised Joes will do whatever they want. It like herding cats.
This has led to desertions, surrenders, and all out near fratricide (a Russian brigade commander was purposely ran over with a tank by his own troops. Don't know if he survived). On top of that, with all of the officers doing jobs they shouldn't be doing, you have a record number of Generals being killed on the battlefield.
NCOs are the backbone of a modern military. NO NCOs, no backbone. Therefore Russia's army has no backbone. 'nuff said.
I've seen a lot of similar analyses but for other countries instead of Russia. It seems to be very common for many militaries to have their performance massively hindered due to a lack of NCOs. Since there seems to be such a consensus about the importance of NCOs (and certainly not one I'd disagree with) why is it so common for many militaries to hobble themselves by not developing a proper NCO corps?
Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2022, 06:50:33 PM
Over the last 10 years or so, various US and NATO commands have conducted military maneuvers and war-games, hypothetically having Blue Teams and Red Teams. During such events, and there have been several, posing hypothetical wars involving Russia, the conclusions have been that the US and NATO gets fucked the majority of the time. Likewise, the US Pacific Fleet has done the same type of exercises posing China as the enemy force--and such results have created no small degree of alarm, criticism, and scandal, as also in the majority of such hypothetical wars, China comes out on top, and America gets fucking blasted.
Just throwing this out there as idle speculation, but do you suppose those assessments were purposely misleading to funnel more money into the military-industrial complex? It's just a question, since I have no proof, nor am I making such a claim. All I have is my distrust of the entrenched bureaucracy that is the US government. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that one of the wealthiest nations on earth, that spends 80% of its GDP on defense, gets blow tf away by a country who's military is still primarily composed of leftover surplus from 30 years ago.
Call me a nut, but with Biden's ties to both Russia and Ukraine, I wouldn't be surprised if this was all some "inner circle" globohomo agenda to destablize the region, distract the plebs, and pay off some of the players. Ukraine almost certainly has dirt on Sneaky Joe's shady dealings, so it really feels like he's using US tax dollars to grease some palms (to the tune of 33 billion+). Additionally, the EU has been pushing for an autocratic superstate for quite some time, and Poland has been a pretty big stick in the mud about it. What better way to whip them in line than to threaten them with potential invasion?
Again, I don't know. I'm just asking questions... cos honestly, none of the shit they're telling us makes any sense.
Quote from: Effete on May 03, 2022, 11:35:54 AMAgain, I don't know. I'm just asking questions... cos honestly, none of the shit they're telling us makes any sense.
I do not trust the global superstate power mongers, but I believe in this case its missing critical things:
Russians march really well. As in amazingly well. Its probably the #1 thing they can do over any other military. Does that translate to any other sort of combat effectiveness? No. And yet they still do it.
Playing games is not the same thing as an actual war.
As for palm greasing: That generally reaches the limit of 'My life is personally in danger for this'. The oligarchs in Ukraine have a cushy thing going, and there was no garuntee that Russia would fail to take the capital initially. Palms could easily be greased without smashing your cushy tax base and putting your soverignty at risk.
Poland has always been on edge about Russia invading, but for that reason its a big player in NATO, not the EU.
There is certainly distraction theatre at play here, but I don't think this is the angle.
Yeah, I'm not putting my tinfoil hat on just yet. I'm just trying to see what the magician's other hand is doing.
Quote from: Daztur on May 03, 2022, 02:35:08 AM
Quote from: blackstone on May 02, 2022, 11:30:43 AM
Another key factor in the frankly pathetic performance of the Russian military is a lack of NCOs. The Russian armed forces are still structured as they were in the Cold War, WWII, and WWI: lots of officers, and small NCO corps, and lots of enlisted. A modern military cannot be structured in such a fashion and expect to win wars.
Why? Most modern (Western) militaries are structured to where officers give the orders, NCOs make sure the orders are carried out, and the enlisted execute those orders. There's a clear division of labor and responsibility in the command structure. It leaves the officers to be concerned with priorities of a higher, strategic level. NCOs are to make sure the overall command is carried out, but are the ones who dwell on the details at a tactical level. Plus it's instilled (at least in the US military) that officers take advice from senior experienced NCOs in their plans.
You have none of that in the Russian military. You have officers performing tasks that NO officer in their right might should be performing on the modern battlefield. You have Brigade commanders performing tasks that a company Sergeant should be doing. Plus, the lack of NCOs leads to a lack of discipline among the enlisted. Believe me, I know. A bunch of unsupervised Joes will do whatever they want. It like herding cats.
This has led to desertions, surrenders, and all out near fratricide (a Russian brigade commander was purposely ran over with a tank by his own troops. Don't know if he survived). On top of that, with all of the officers doing jobs they shouldn't be doing, you have a record number of Generals being killed on the battlefield.
NCOs are the backbone of a modern military. NO NCOs, no backbone. Therefore Russia's army has no backbone. 'nuff said.
I've seen a lot of similar analyses but for other countries instead of Russia. It seems to be very common for many militaries to have their performance massively hindered due to a lack of NCOs. Since there seems to be such a consensus about the importance of NCOs (and certainly not one I'd disagree with) why is it so common for many militaries to hobble themselves by not developing a proper NCO corps?
Much of it comes down to costs. How much time and money is a country willing to invest in its military?
I can only claim knowledge of how the US and Russian military is structured. Generally speaking, The US armed forces required a minimum of time in service before one can advance in rank, especially to NCO ranks (E4/5 - E9). When an enlisted person is eligible for promotion, they generally have 3 to 4 years in. Even then, promotion isn't automatic. The US Navy for example, you take a test upon the knowledge of your rating (MOS, job). all services require you to meet the minimum physical requirements. Any medals, rewards, commendations, may count for "points" towards promotion as well. Farther advancement in the senior ranks (E7- E9) require successful completion of leadership training.
With that being said, order and discipline is maintained by the NCOs within the command, who are generally ones that have comes through the ranks in the same command. This builds trust and closeness with the junior enlisted. Esprit de corps, as it's called. Basically, you trust the guys above you because we've all been through he same shit and you pretty much know they've got your back. Does this happen all of the time? No. But for the vast majority it does.
the Russian military? Not so much.
The invest a lot in their officers, and see them as the ones to not only to create orders, but many times to make sure they're carried out (unless a senior officer is savvy enough to get his juniors to do so). Order and discipline is maintained primarily through fear and intimidation, not by respect or Esprit de corps. Hazing is a common form of discipline and is rampant in the Russian armed forces. If a recruit after a year of service shows "brains", he may be promoted to Sergeant. Time in rank means nothing to the Russian armed forces. It's not uncommon for a private with many years in, dress down a Sergeant with only a year or two in.
Plus, the Russian armed forces has only 3 ranks of NCOs. US armed forces? Six. Why is that important? better division of labor and responsibilities in the command structure.
I do know what I'm talking about with first hand experience. this isn't just academic talk. I spent 4 years active in the US Navy and then 6 years in the Army Natl Guard, one of those years active Army in Iraq in 05. I've been around good and bad officers and NCOs. the best NCOs and officers are the ones who don't just give orders, but listen as well. Ultimately it's up to them to give the orders and make things happen. Bad NCOs and officers make decisions unilaterally. they're the ones who are "out of touch" and lack the empathy to understand the impact of their orders.
Quote from: blackstone on May 03, 2022, 01:46:48 PM
Quote from: Daztur on May 03, 2022, 02:35:08 AM
Quote from: blackstone on May 02, 2022, 11:30:43 AM
Another key factor in the frankly pathetic performance of the Russian military is a lack of NCOs. The Russian armed forces are still structured as they were in the Cold War, WWII, and WWI: lots of officers, and small NCO corps, and lots of enlisted. A modern military cannot be structured in such a fashion and expect to win wars.
Why? Most modern (Western) militaries are structured to where officers give the orders, NCOs make sure the orders are carried out, and the enlisted execute those orders. There's a clear division of labor and responsibility in the command structure. It leaves the officers to be concerned with priorities of a higher, strategic level. NCOs are to make sure the overall command is carried out, but are the ones who dwell on the details at a tactical level. Plus it's instilled (at least in the US military) that officers take advice from senior experienced NCOs in their plans.
You have none of that in the Russian military. You have officers performing tasks that NO officer in their right might should be performing on the modern battlefield. You have Brigade commanders performing tasks that a company Sergeant should be doing. Plus, the lack of NCOs leads to a lack of discipline among the enlisted. Believe me, I know. A bunch of unsupervised Joes will do whatever they want. It like herding cats.
This has led to desertions, surrenders, and all out near fratricide (a Russian brigade commander was purposely ran over with a tank by his own troops. Don't know if he survived). On top of that, with all of the officers doing jobs they shouldn't be doing, you have a record number of Generals being killed on the battlefield.
NCOs are the backbone of a modern military. NO NCOs, no backbone. Therefore Russia's army has no backbone. 'nuff said.
I've seen a lot of similar analyses but for other countries instead of Russia. It seems to be very common for many militaries to have their performance massively hindered due to a lack of NCOs. Since there seems to be such a consensus about the importance of NCOs (and certainly not one I'd disagree with) why is it so common for many militaries to hobble themselves by not developing a proper NCO corps?
Much of it comes down to costs. How much time and money is a country willing to invest in its military?
I can only claim knowledge of how the US and Russian military is structured. Generally speaking, The US armed forces required a minimum of time in service before one can advance in rank, especially to NCO ranks (E4/5 - E9). When an enlisted person is eligible for promotion, they generally have 3 to 4 years in. Even then, promotion isn't automatic. The US Navy for example, you take a test upon the knowledge of your rating (MOS, job). all services require you to meet the minimum physical requirements. Any medals, rewards, commendations, may count for "points" towards promotion as well. Farther advancement in the senior ranks (E7- E9) require successful completion of leadership training.
With that being said, order and discipline is maintained by the NCOs within the command, who are generally ones that have comes through the ranks in the same command. This builds trust and closeness with the junior enlisted. Esprit de corps, as it's called. Basically, you trust the guys above you because we've all been through he same shit and you pretty much know they've got your back. Does this happen all of the time? No. But for the vast majority it does.
the Russian military? Not so much.
The invest a lot in their officers, and see them as the ones to not only to create orders, but many times to make sure they're carried out (unless a senior officer is savvy enough to get his juniors to do so). Order and discipline is maintained primarily through fear and intimidation, not by respect or Esprit de corps. Hazing is a common form of discipline and is rampant in the Russian armed forces. If a recruit after a year of service shows "brains", he may be promoted to Sergeant. Time in rank means nothing to the Russian armed forces. It's not uncommon for a private with many years in, dress down a Sergeant with only a year or two in.
Plus, the Russian armed forces has only 3 ranks of NCOs. US armed forces? Six. Why is that important? better division of labor and responsibilities in the command structure.
I do know what I'm talking about with first hand experience. this isn't just academic talk. I spent 4 years active in the US Navy and then 6 years in the Army Natl Guard, one of those years active Army in Iraq in 05. I've been around good and bad officers and NCOs. the best NCOs and officers are the ones who don't just give orders, but listen as well. Ultimately it's up to them to give the orders and make things happen. Bad NCOs and officers make decisions unilaterally. they're the ones who are "out of touch" and lack the empathy to understand the impact of their orders.
Something I always wondered with the Russians, was what their nuclear power trained guys were like (regarding selection and ranks and training). I know when I was in being a Nuc took a shitload of training and continued training in fleet as well as a selection process. Everyone started as an E4 in the fleet, and it was interesting as some guys more or less started as E5 if they reenlisted. This lead to a bunch of petty officers with little actual leadership experience. though it did tend to even out pretty quick among the guys reenlisting (most wanted in for the long haul, so did what they could to become efficient leaders).
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2022, 08:17:10 AM
Quote from: SHARK on May 01, 2022, 04:14:17 AM"Lazerpig's" interpretation also pushed me to consider, if the T-34 was such a shit tank, according to him--it honestly begs the question of in wonderment of how the Russians managed to ever get past Stalingrad then, let alone roll the Nazi armies back to Berlin.
The guys video is mostly comedic. It overplays the T-34 problems, but that was just the one I had at hand at the moment. But what I mean is that if 82% of the tanks where lost (~40% can be chalked up to just poor build quality). Thats just a hard statistic. Thats a higher ratio then just about every other tank during the war produced in that quantity. Thats higher ratio then the germans, and they lost the war!
But the Sherman is a great example. There is a scandal because of the casualties number. But that sort of scandal just doesn't matter in a USSR army if the results are worth it.
What I mean is that life isn't a videogame. Russia wasn't playing Zerglings to Germanies Terrans (or whatever that 3rd faction is). "Quality is a quantity of its own" doesn't work when every new soldier still needs to be trained and needs to pick up experience from 0 because the last tank crew died.
As to answer the question: There was more then 1 tank that the Soviets used (IS 2 for instance). And you can still win a war if you have 2nd rate equipment if there is other stuff happening alongside it. Allied denial of supplies, equipment failures, and the germans just completly overstretched themselves as their own logistics people said what they where doing was going to be impossible.
I just cannot for the life of me call what the USSR did a '1st rate army'. I can't call something that just counts on massive reserves of personel to die for the high commands mistakes to "Teach itself" as "1st rate". Yes by the end of the war it had become allot more efficient. And it won through good tactics and such. No amount of bodies would be enough to compensate for poor tactical and strategic performance.
But Russia was by and large playing a defensive war in their own territory, while germany is a country less then a third of its size that had attempted to conquer the whole world.
Edit: To stress again: The USSR army was very effective. But it not 1st rate.
Greetings!
Well, while it is true that the Russian military doctrine often had tendencies to be "casualty-heavy" and having less regard overall for operational losses, to my mind that is not really the bar for determining what a 1st rate army is. In my view, when one considers that the German Wehrmacht was essentially *The Standard*--as them being the 800-lb gorilla conquering all of Europe at the time in breathtaking speed--the Red Army ultimately demonstrated that they could stand toe to toe with the Wehrmacht, and WIN. That isn't an achievement that can consistently be claimed by any other nation involved in World War II except for the United States. In addition, when one considers the absolute beating that the Wehrmacht gave to Russia during the first year of the war, literally encircling and slaughtering *millions* of Russians, and taking over 3 million Russian prisoners--the Red Army's resurrection and match to triumph and victory is astonishing, and again, in my mind, makes the Red Army at the time a 1st rate army. In terms of how they fought, taking on the large majority of the Third Reich, fighting the most elite infantry and Panzer forces, almost always in terrible weather and terrain conditions--over thousands of miles that composed the Eastern Front--and evolving their combined arms forces, their tactics and operational capabilities, all combining to break the Nazi war machine and march victoriously into Berlin in 1945, the only army I can think of that really was in that club at the time was again, the United States.
It is for these reasons that I consider the Red Army of 1944-1945 to have been a 1st rate army.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Supposedly, Putin's going under for cancer surgery.
If he kicks off, that might cause the whole thing to peter out. Maybe we'll get lucky.
I gotta say, I really hate Putins rhetoric (snd his cronies) in all of this. I hate the childish spineless way he is addressing this conflict. Like a little kid insisting that a dog ate his homework.
Have the dignity to call what your doing a war and claim conquest for empire. Don't pathetically whine that the west is supplying Ukraine weapons for some reason.
Don't whine that the West is killing your soldiers by proxy when you sent them there to die based off of wishful thinking on your part.
Shitty thing where done in Donbas (most of which you supported). But you forfeit all the right to claim it was in its defense when you called on the Ukraine military to overthrow the president!
Quote from: SHARK on May 03, 2022, 07:27:38 PMIt is for these reasons that I consider the Red Army of 1944-1945 to have been a 1st rate army.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Alright. But from the POV of the general boots on the ground trooper, it was in no way a first rate military time. The general atmosphere after the war was dour. It felt like a phyrric victory to many outside of high command.
Edit: also forgot the irony: my great grandfather was a wwii tank commander. Died in the line of duty.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 03, 2022, 07:49:26 PM
Edit: also forgot the irony: my great grandfather was a wwii tank commander. Died in the line of duty.
Weird generational thing here.
My
father served in WWII.
My great great grandfather died wearing Confederate grey, attacking Sheridan's position at Murfreesboro.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 03, 2022, 07:42:44 PM
Supposedly, Putin's going under for cancer surgery.
If he kicks off, that might cause the whole thing to peter out. Maybe we'll get lucky.
The only way this conflict ends is if there's regime change in the USA.
Quote from: Zelen on May 06, 2022, 02:02:18 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 03, 2022, 07:42:44 PM
Supposedly, Putin's going under for cancer surgery.
If he kicks off, that might cause the whole thing to peter out. Maybe we'll get lucky.
The only way this conflict ends is if there's regime change in the USA Russia.
Fixed that for ya. You can than me later. Now the rest of us who are educated about the situation will have an intelligent conversation.
Quote from: blackstone on May 06, 2022, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: Zelen on May 06, 2022, 02:02:18 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 03, 2022, 07:42:44 PM
Supposedly, Putin's going under for cancer surgery.
If he kicks off, that might cause the whole thing to peter out. Maybe we'll get lucky.
The only way this conflict ends is if there's regime change in the USA Russia.
Fixed that for ya. You can than me later. Now the rest of us who are educated about the situation will have an intelligent conversation.
Well, in fairness, the USA does seem to have a pattern of supporting radicals to fight off someone they do not like through proxy, only to have those same radicals take power in that country, and then the USA comes around and fights that radical government 10 years or so down the road.
Quote from: Zelen on May 06, 2022, 02:02:18 PMThe only way this conflict ends is if there's regime change in the USA.
To claim that the conflict in Ukraine now has no USA intervention is ignorant.
To claim the only thing that matters in the conflict now is the USA is also ignorant.
This sort of dialogue has ticked me off. It denies any people in the conflict any sort of personal will and motive and assumes the USA is the only driving factor of the Universe.
Quote from: oggsmash on May 06, 2022, 02:57:38 PMWell, in fairness, the USA does seem to have a pattern of supporting radicals to fight off someone they do not like through proxy, only to have those same radicals take power in that country, and then the USA comes around and fights that radical government 10 years or so down the road.
Believe it or not: The USA is not the only nation in the planet capable of arming radicals.
Nations fighting through proxy has been a thing even as a FOUNDING element of the United States. Its like saying all of this is actually the Fault of France because they supported the radical revolutionaries of the American colonies.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 06, 2022, 03:19:45 PM
Quote from: Zelen on May 06, 2022, 02:02:18 PMThe only way this conflict ends is if there's regime change in the USA.
To claim that the conflict in Ukraine now has no USA intervention is ignorant.
To claim the only thing that matters in the conflict now is the USA is also ignorant.
This sort of dialogue has ticked me off. It denies any people in the conflict any sort of personal will and motive and assumes the USA is the only driving factor of the Universe.
Quote from: oggsmash on May 06, 2022, 02:57:38 PMWell, in fairness, the USA does seem to have a pattern of supporting radicals to fight off someone they do not like through proxy, only to have those same radicals take power in that country, and then the USA comes around and fights that radical government 10 years or so down the road.
Believe it or not: The USA is not the only nation in the planet capable of arming radicals.
Nations fighting through proxy has been a thing even as a FOUNDING element of the United States. Its like saying all of this is actually the Fault of France because they supported the radical revolutionaries of the American colonies.
Those damn frogs!
The Pentagon just straight up admitted they're feeding military intel to Ukraine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/u-s-provided-intelligence-that-helped-ukraine-sink-russian-warship/ar-AAWXPmJ?ocid=uxbndlbing
WHY? I don't care if we do it on the sly -- to hell with the Russians -- but damn it, you don't fucking BRAG about it you fucking donuts!
But you know why they're suddenly bragging. Brandon's poll numbers are sliding inexorably into the grave. Even the RvW screaming won't save the Democrats, what with the economy going down like Harris on Willie Brown.
Anything to try and make Sleepy Joe and his shitty misadministration look good. Even if it pisses Russia enough to start shooting at us.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 06, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
The Pentagon just straight up admitted they're feeding military intel to Ukraine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/u-s-provided-intelligence-that-helped-ukraine-sink-russian-warship/ar-AAWXPmJ?ocid=uxbndlbing
WHY? I don't care if we do it on the sly -- to hell with the Russians -- but damn it, you don't fucking BRAG about it you fucking donuts!
But you know why they're suddenly bragging. Brandon's poll numbers are sliding inexorably into the grave. Even the RvW screaming won't save the Democrats, what with the economy going down like Harris on Willie Brown.
Anything to try and make Sleepy Joe and his shitty misadministration look good. Even if it pisses Russia enough to start shooting at us.
I have no idea why you think this was meaningful. Everyone already knew we were doing that sort of thing and announcing it changes nothing. I suspect we'd all be shocked if we were not feeding them intelligence. It's not like they have their own satellites or navy and Russia is invading from that direction so of course we're telling them where the Russian ships are.
Quote from: Mistwell on May 06, 2022, 05:19:23 PM
I have no idea why you think this was meaningful. Everyone already knew we were doing that sort of thing and announcing it changes nothing. I suspect we'd all be shocked if we were not feeding them intelligence. It's not like they have their own satellites or navy and Russia is invading from that direction so of course we're telling them where the Russian ships are.
(https://i.imgur.com/Kq5tmSQ.png)
If Russia had publicly come out and stated, "Yeah, we are arming the Afghanis and paying them to kill your men," would the reaction have been different?
Quote from: Zelen on May 06, 2022, 05:38:00 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 06, 2022, 05:19:23 PM
I have no idea why you think this was meaningful. Everyone already knew we were doing that sort of thing and announcing it changes nothing. I suspect we'd all be shocked if we were not feeding them intelligence. It's not like they have their own satellites or navy and Russia is invading from that direction so of course we're telling them where the Russian ships are.
(https://i.imgur.com/Kq5tmSQ.png)
If Russia had publicly come out and stated, "Yeah, we are arming the Afghanis and paying them to kill your men," would the reaction have been different?
LOL but that's because it wasn't known Russia was helping them at the time. It's not some secret we're arming Ukraine!
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 06, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
The Pentagon just straight up admitted they're feeding military intel to Ukraine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/u-s-provided-intelligence-that-helped-ukraine-sink-russian-warship/ar-AAWXPmJ?ocid=uxbndlbing
WHY? I don't care if we do it on the sly -- to hell with the Russians -- but damn it, you don't fucking BRAG about it you fucking donuts!
But you know why they're suddenly bragging. Brandon's poll numbers are sliding inexorably into the grave. Even the RvW screaming won't save the Democrats, what with the economy going down like Harris on Willie Brown.
Anything to try and make Sleepy Joe and his shitty misadministration look good. Even if it pisses Russia enough to start shooting at us.
Greetings!
Our country's fucking corrupt Junta is just jerking themselves silly at the thought of getting into a real war with Russia.
I wonder if these morons will think it is all worth it when America has a dozen or more cities vaporized and we lose 25 or 50 million people. Just assuming the action remains somehow as a "limited nuclear war".
This country's cock-sucking leaders are corrupt and stupid as all fuck. I can't wait until they get fucking packed off to nowhere, assuming we manage to avoid a huge fucking war before then. Absolutely disgraceful. This entire administration is full of absolute morons, and the administration will go down in history as one of, if not the most, corrupt, embarrassing, and incompetent administrations we have had leading this country.
Proof that registered Democrats need to have their "Right to Vote" revoked and utterly abolished. Half of this fucking country is too fucking stupid to vote for someone to clean the goddamn outhouse, let alone President of the United States. Our country is on the edge of a chasm of shit and absolute failure, and we have Biden, Kamala, and the cock-sucking Liberal Democrats to thank for it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Mistwell on May 06, 2022, 06:42:00 PM
LOL but that's because it wasn't known Russia was helping them at the time. It's not some secret we're arming Ukraine!
Yeah, but you dodged the question. Think that the US (either government or nation) would have had slightly different reaction? If we knew Russia was not only offering bounties, but supplying expensive high-tech hardware and doing everything short of pulling the trigger themselves... Would America feel like it was justified in going to war?
To me, seems like it would.
Quote from: SHARK on May 06, 2022, 06:50:42 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 06, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
The Pentagon just straight up admitted they're feeding military intel to Ukraine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/u-s-provided-intelligence-that-helped-ukraine-sink-russian-warship/ar-AAWXPmJ?ocid=uxbndlbing
WHY? I don't care if we do it on the sly -- to hell with the Russians -- but damn it, you don't fucking BRAG about it you fucking donuts!
But you know why they're suddenly bragging. Brandon's poll numbers are sliding inexorably into the grave. Even the RvW screaming won't save the Democrats, what with the economy going down like Harris on Willie Brown.
Anything to try and make Sleepy Joe and his shitty misadministration look good. Even if it pisses Russia enough to start shooting at us.
Greetings!
Our country's fucking corrupt Junta is just jerking themselves silly at the thought of getting into a real war with Russia.
I wonder if these morons will think it is all worth it when America has a dozen or more cities vaporized and we lose 25 or 50 million people. Just assuming the action remains somehow as a "limited nuclear war".
This country's cock-sucking leaders are corrupt and stupid as all fuck. I can't wait until they get fucking packed off to nowhere, assuming we manage to avoid a huge fucking war before then. Absolutely disgraceful. This entire administration is full of absolute morons, and the administration will go down in history as one of, if not the most, corrupt, embarrassing, and incompetent administrations we have had leading this country.
Proof that registered Democrats need to have their "Right to Vote" revoked and utterly abolished. Half of this fucking country is too fucking stupid to vote for someone to clean the goddamn outhouse, let alone President of the United States. Our country is on the edge of a chasm of shit and absolute failure, and we have Biden, Kamala, and the cock-sucking Liberal Democrats to thank for it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Is this the same SHARK that wants all of the city dwellers to burn?
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 06, 2022, 07:42:03 PM
Quote from: SHARK on May 06, 2022, 06:50:42 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 06, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
The Pentagon just straight up admitted they're feeding military intel to Ukraine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/u-s-provided-intelligence-that-helped-ukraine-sink-russian-warship/ar-AAWXPmJ?ocid=uxbndlbing
WHY? I don't care if we do it on the sly -- to hell with the Russians -- but damn it, you don't fucking BRAG about it you fucking donuts!
But you know why they're suddenly bragging. Brandon's poll numbers are sliding inexorably into the grave. Even the RvW screaming won't save the Democrats, what with the economy going down like Harris on Willie Brown.
Anything to try and make Sleepy Joe and his shitty misadministration look good. Even if it pisses Russia enough to start shooting at us.
Greetings!
Our country's fucking corrupt Junta is just jerking themselves silly at the thought of getting into a real war with Russia.
I wonder if these morons will think it is all worth it when America has a dozen or more cities vaporized and we lose 25 or 50 million people. Just assuming the action remains somehow as a "limited nuclear war".
This country's cock-sucking leaders are corrupt and stupid as all fuck. I can't wait until they get fucking packed off to nowhere, assuming we manage to avoid a huge fucking war before then. Absolutely disgraceful. This entire administration is full of absolute morons, and the administration will go down in history as one of, if not the most, corrupt, embarrassing, and incompetent administrations we have had leading this country.
Proof that registered Democrats need to have their "Right to Vote" revoked and utterly abolished. Half of this fucking country is too fucking stupid to vote for someone to clean the goddamn outhouse, let alone President of the United States. Our country is on the edge of a chasm of shit and absolute failure, and we have Biden, Kamala, and the cock-sucking Liberal Democrats to thank for it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Is this the same SHARK that wants all of the city dwellers to burn?
Greetings!
ALL city dwellers? No.
Napalm is good for breakfast! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Zelen on May 06, 2022, 07:37:15 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 06, 2022, 06:42:00 PM
LOL but that's because it wasn't known Russia was helping them at the time. It's not some secret we're arming Ukraine!
Yeah, but you dodged the question. Think that the US (either government or nation) would have had slightly different reaction? If we knew Russia was not only offering bounties, but supplying expensive high-tech hardware and doing everything short of pulling the trigger themselves... Would America feel like it was justified in going to war?
To me, seems like it would.
Of course it would. Because it would be entirely radically different information than what we knew about those events.
There is nothing new about the US giving Ukraine intelligence information, given we all knew we gave them the weapons they're using along with that intelligence information! There is no surprise here. Nothing changes about the context of this war because of this information in any way like the change which would happen in the situation you described.
Quote from: Mistwell on May 06, 2022, 08:24:25 PMThere is nothing new about the US giving Ukraine intelligence information, given we all knew we gave them the weapons they're using along with that intelligence information! There is no surprise here. Nothing changes about the context of this war because of this information in any way like the change which would happen in the situation you described.
How to put it: 95% of this invasion is happening because Putin is a personally motivated man, he ignored warnings and now doesn't want to lose face. If you say bad things about him on TV - he will ban travel to your country until you apologize (assuming your in a weaker position). Mock him on TV and bragging about it might get him to do something stupid, or do something else. Yes he is THAT personally petty.
Even US inteligence (https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-05-06-22/h_1914b2d1d31decaf5675a2112b2309b8) say that 95% of what they can do is based apon seeing what Putin sees as escalatory. Putin has very short term, purely selfishly motivated thinking. I really do hope they know what they are doing when it comes to pressuring him.
Because this started with talks about Ukraine joining NATO even though there was only a 1% chance it could ever actually happen.
Edit: Biden himself says this is counter (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna27738) productive.
Quote from: Mistwell on May 06, 2022, 08:24:25 PM
Of course it would. Because it would be entirely radically different information than what we knew about those events.
There is nothing new about the US giving Ukraine intelligence information, given we all knew we gave them the weapons they're using along with that intelligence information! There is no surprise here. Nothing changes about the context of this war because of this information in any way like the change which would happen in the situation you described.
This feels a bit like, "We were always at war with EastAsia."
I mean, if anyone asked you ~three months ago whether the US would be giving all kinds of weaponry and tens billions of dollars of
aidbribes & money laundering to Ukraine, the answer would be no. I doubt Russia anticipated that the US/NATO would respond in such a reckless & brazen way. From where I stand I can see Russia taking more drastic measures, and being fully justified in doing so.
Jesus I am now seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
[Edit - for the dumbasses in the back row this was not a comment directed at anyone here about anything said here - I literally saw the above stuff on Twitter and thought I would post about it here. Not posting ABOUT anyone here.]
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 06, 2022, 03:19:45 PM
Quote from: Zelen on May 06, 2022, 02:02:18 PMThe only way this conflict ends is if there's regime change in the USA.
To claim that the conflict in Ukraine now has no USA intervention is ignorant.
To claim the only thing that matters in the conflict now is the USA is also ignorant.
This sort of dialogue has ticked me off. It denies any people in the conflict any sort of personal will and motive and assumes the USA is the only driving factor of the Universe.
Quote from: oggsmash on May 06, 2022, 02:57:38 PMWell, in fairness, the USA does seem to have a pattern of supporting radicals to fight off someone they do not like through proxy, only to have those same radicals take power in that country, and then the USA comes around and fights that radical government 10 years or so down the road.
Believe it or not: The USA is not the only nation in the planet capable of arming radicals.
Nations fighting through proxy has been a thing even as a FOUNDING element of the United States. Its like saying all of this is actually the Fault of France because they supported the radical revolutionaries of the American colonies.
Not the only one, but by FAR the biggest spender in doing so.
Quote from: Zelen on May 07, 2022, 10:16:24 AM
From where I stand I can see Russia taking more drastic measures, and being fully justified in doing so.
Where do you stand that an act of aggression that expands into brutal atrocities when meet with widespread condemnation and resistance is "fully justified"?
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Jesus I am not seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
Strawman harder.
If you think it's America's responsibility to police the world, go buy a ticket and fight & die for this vision yourself.
Quote from: Zelen on May 07, 2022, 01:00:18 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Jesus I am not seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
Strawman harder.
If you think it's America's responsibility to police the world, go buy a ticket and fight & die for this vision yourself.
No strawman here. I am reporting what I just saw happen on Twitter, with dozens of Q folks involved. Not trying to say it's how anyone here thinks. In fact I will say outright I assume nobody here thinks like that an I've never seen anything like it before. I just figured this was the best thread to mention it in.
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Jesus I am not seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
Assuming that Q isn't a Fed Psi-Op off course.
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Jesus I am not seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
Wow. I knew that you were a liar, but I hadn't thought that you were "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" level of fucked up until now.
I think that the Ukraine is winning the propaganda war on this one.
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-war-cat-that-survived-russian-attack-in-borodyanka-adopted-by-ukraine-2878446?fbclid=IwAR3rtmCIg9kfdsSqMbEAqdyYHWBEGSsv5qEiJRA-2z6MmIKXD9Pb-42WgMU
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/279866199_7496119110400160_5833237965496906300_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-6&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=kulW-Y3HKggAX8SQ9SE&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=00_AT-plv9UHM1l7oxQujObMy1JjEk54JYZKyuIzzaMLSEd1A&oe=627B6C93)
Quote from: Zelen on May 07, 2022, 01:00:18 PM
If you think it's America's responsibility to police the world, go buy a ticket and fight & die for this vision yourself.
Just because you walk away from the table, doesn't mean your not a player. The game of geopolitical alliances, trades, supports and stabilization/ de-stabilization existed for hundreds of years before the USA was ever an idea, and will exist long after its just a scribble in a textbook.
The USA has reasons to have the world order as it is right now, and a emboldened Russia is not to its benefit.
Everything else about morality or responsibility is just global cover.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 07, 2022, 01:58:39 PM
Quote from: Zelen on May 07, 2022, 01:00:18 PM
If you think it's America's responsibility to police the world, go buy a ticket and fight & die for this vision yourself.
Just because you walk away from the table, doesn't mean your not a player. The game of geopolitical alliances, trades, supports and stabilization/ de-stabilization existed for hundreds of years before the USA was ever an idea, and will exist long after its just a scribble in a textbook.
The USA has reasons to have the world order as it is right now, and a emboldened Russia is not to its benefit.
Everything else about morality or responsibility is just global cover.
Not entirely true. While geopolitics is almost always about self-serving pragmatism, the US is occasionally an exception. America is one of the very, very few countries that sometimes intervenes against its own best interests, out of a higher sense of morality.
Of course, it's frequently a disaster. And the political class has learned to weaponize the public sentiment that leads to these well-meaning interventions, as seen most recently in the extreme propaganda about Ukraine, so it often ends up serving the geopolitical needs of the elites anyway.
In this specific case, I'm not sure an emboldened Russia matters. Their invasion has been a disaster, and demographics dooms any longer-term imperial ambitions. The bigger concern should be China, who clearly want to expand their influence to the first and second island chains, conquer Taiwan, and displace the US as the world's hegemon. They're also sitting on a demographic time bomb, so in the middle-future they will diminish as a threat, but in the short term they're more worrisome.
Quote from: Pat on May 07, 2022, 02:34:21 PM
Of course, it's frequently a disaster. And the political class has learned to weaponize the public sentiment that leads to these well-meaning interventions, as seen most recently in the extreme propaganda about Ukraine, so it often ends up serving the geopolitical needs of the elites anyway.
What doesn't end up serving some elites in some way?
QuoteIn this specific case, I'm not sure an emboldened Russia matters. Their invasion has been a disaster, and demographics dooms any longer-term imperial ambitions.
Russia is willing to soak a very large degree of trade sanctions for dreams of worthless empire. Each place it puts under its wing makes it both more bold, and more resistant to further sanctions. Its completly capable of smashing stuff before self-immolation. The west has chosen Ukraine to be that something.
Ukraine fighting off Russia isn't magic, nor was it a foregone conclusion. Incompitence on Russias part, and Ukaine recieving allot of critical supplies are very important factors.
Nor is the fight over yet to any degree. A bomb landed near where my great aunt lives a few days ago. Like a block off.
So Il admit to having a strong personal bais in this fight.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 07, 2022, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: Pat on May 07, 2022, 02:34:21 PM
Of course, it's frequently a disaster. And the political class has learned to weaponize the public sentiment that leads to these well-meaning interventions, as seen most recently in the extreme propaganda about Ukraine, so it often ends up serving the geopolitical needs of the elites anyway.
What doesn't end up serving some elites in some way?
QuoteIn this specific case, I'm not sure an emboldened Russia matters. Their invasion has been a disaster, and demographics dooms any longer-term imperial ambitions.
Russia is willing to soak a very large degree of trade sanctions for dreams of worthless empire. Each place it puts under its wing makes it both more bold, and more resistant to further sanctions. Its completly capable of smashing stuff before self-immolation. The west has chosen Ukraine to be that something.
Ukraine fighting off Russia isn't magic, nor was it a foregone conclusion. Incompitence on Russias part, and Ukaine recieving allot of critical supplies are very important factors.
Nor is the fight over yet to any degree. A bomb landed near where my great aunt lives a few days ago. Like a block off.
So Il admit to having a strong personal bais in this fight.
Popular movements don't serve the elites, at least not until they're co-opted. Which clearly happens a lot, but they often have to go into damage control until they're subverted and reconceptualized. That's why "populism" is considered one of the greatest of evils.
Except that help comes with huge geopolitical consequences. Drones from the US and intel that helped the Ukrainians sink the Russian flagship in the Black Sea could be considered acts of war. Russia would be justified in retaliating against the US.
Quote from: Pat on May 07, 2022, 04:13:51 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 07, 2022, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: Pat on May 07, 2022, 02:34:21 PM
Of course, it's frequently a disaster. And the political class has learned to weaponize the public sentiment that leads to these well-meaning interventions, as seen most recently in the extreme propaganda about Ukraine, so it often ends up serving the geopolitical needs of the elites anyway.
What doesn't end up serving some elites in some way?
QuoteIn this specific case, I'm not sure an emboldened Russia matters. Their invasion has been a disaster, and demographics dooms any longer-term imperial ambitions.
Russia is willing to soak a very large degree of trade sanctions for dreams of worthless empire. Each place it puts under its wing makes it both more bold, and more resistant to further sanctions. Its completly capable of smashing stuff before self-immolation. The west has chosen Ukraine to be that something.
Ukraine fighting off Russia isn't magic, nor was it a foregone conclusion. Incompitence on Russias part, and Ukaine recieving allot of critical supplies are very important factors.
Nor is the fight over yet to any degree. A bomb landed near where my great aunt lives a few days ago. Like a block off.
So Il admit to having a strong personal bais in this fight.
Popular movements don't serve the elites, at least not until they're co-opted. Which clearly happens a lot, but they often have to go into damage control until they're subverted and reconceptualized. That's why "populism" is considered one of the greatest of evils.
Except that help comes with huge geopolitical consequences. Drones from the US and intel that helped the Ukrainians sink the Russian flagship in the Black Sea could be considered acts of war. Russia would be justified in retaliating against the US.
Greetings!
Exactly, Pat. Indeed, by any reasonable understanding of warfare, Russia would be more than justified in retaliating against us. First order of business, set a three day time limit, anyone that continues to supply Ukraine will be considered an enemy nation, and suffer swift action against them. Strategic bombing, cruise missile strikes, full invasions, or nuclear weapons. BOOM. Either stop the fucking games or we go to war.
Make continuing to assist Ukraine entirely too risky, painful, or terrifying, and the proxy war bullshit would stop. It isn't a choice I would like to make, nor would I want our nation to be in the position of being forced to make such a choice. It is precisely why I cautioned us to be far more restrained, circumspect, and conservative with being involved in the Ukraine war in any way.
Is jerking our dick worth a dozen or two American cities, and 25 million dead Americans?
I think our fucking government should have been far more conservative and restrained regarding this whole war over there from the very beginning.
Ahh, well. Enjoy the fucking Decline.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 07, 2022, 04:42:13 PM
Is jerking our dick worth a dozen or two American cities, and 25 million dead Americans?
Biden needs a war, or the midterms will be really bad, and Trump will rise in 2024 like a revenant.
Plus, his buddies will make a lot of money. (And so will he.)
The warfare state is self-perpetuating, because the elites in power have every incentive for more war.
Quote from: Pat on May 07, 2022, 04:13:51 PMPopular movements don't serve the elites, at least not until they're co-opted.
This assumes elites all play on one side of the board. Something is always in service of an elite.
Quote from: SHARK on May 07, 2022, 04:42:13 PMExactly, Pat. Indeed, by any reasonable understanding of warfare, Russia would be more than justified in retaliating against us.
QuoteDrones from the US and intel that helped the Ukrainians sink the Russian flagship in the Black Sea could be considered acts of war. Russia would be justified in retaliating against the US.
Russia is playing stupid games to win stupid prizes. There is a reason its not calling its own acts of aggression an act of war. And if your afraid of retaliation over ANYTHING regardless of circumstance, I suggest just surrendering all of Europe and start learning Russian right now. And Im being serious.
The statements by Putin and his aides have been making more sense to me as this goes on. This is as small a war as they can try to do without loosing face. If they make it any larger, then the internal military unrest has a greater and greater chance of internal revolt. You are correct that the war in Ukraine has been a disastrous embarassment. They are putting up the poker face for the internal civies, but the upper command knows whats going on. Their illusions have been shattered. If its been this much of a swamp for them going against Ukraine armed with cold-war equipment with a few dabs of modern tech.
No commander is thinking that planning a nation wide mobilization to go against NATO right now, is in any dimension a good idea.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 07, 2022, 01:35:41 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Jesus I am not seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
Assuming that Q isn't a Fed Psi-Op off course.
Yup could be that. I don't know anyone in that thread.
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 07, 2022, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Jesus I am not seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
Wow. I knew that you were a liar, but I hadn't thought that you were "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" level of fucked up until now.
WTF are you talking about? I didn't say anything about people who disagree with me and was not accusing anyone here of anything. Seriously Jeff, you're just fucking stupid sometimes. Like not mean stupid, just plain stupid stupid. You see things and you just don't think. You react like a dumb animal sometimes.
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 08:10:37 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 07, 2022, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Jesus I am not seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
Wow. I knew that you were a liar, but I hadn't thought that you were "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" level of fucked up until now.
WTF are you talking about? I didn't say anything about people who disagree with me and was not accusing anyone here of anything. Seriously Jeff, you're just fucking stupid sometimes. Like not mean stupid, just plain stupid stupid. You see things and you just don't think. You react like a dumb animal sometimes.
Jeff is just playing his character...
But seriously, all people react like a stupid animal at times. That's not a surprise since we have many basic nervous and endocrine responses in common with most mammals.
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 07, 2022, 08:26:31 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 08:10:37 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 07, 2022, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Jesus I am not seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
Wow. I knew that you were a liar, but I hadn't thought that you were "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" level of fucked up until now.
WTF are you talking about? I didn't say anything about people who disagree with me and was not accusing anyone here of anything. Seriously Jeff, you're just fucking stupid sometimes. Like not mean stupid, just plain stupid stupid. You see things and you just don't think. You react like a dumb animal sometimes.
Jeff is just playing his character...
But seriously, all people react like a stupid animal at times. That's not a surprise since we have many basic nervous and endocrine responses in common with most mammals.
I appreciate you reminding me, in your own way, that we're all in this together. I shouldn't react like that to Jeff. He means well, and he's a true blue nerd which I appreciate. I just get frustrated sometimes.
Sorry about that Jeff.
Greetings!
Jeff acts like a fucking DUMB ANIMAL!!!!! ;D
Yes. I always try and remind myself that SHARKS are fierce, bloodthirsty, and violent! Appropriate for one of the ocean's dominant, Apex predators! ;D
CHOMP! CHOMP! CHOMP!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 08:52:35 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 07, 2022, 08:26:31 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 08:10:37 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 07, 2022, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Jesus I am not seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
Wow. I knew that you were a liar, but I hadn't thought that you were "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" level of fucked up until now.
WTF are you talking about? I didn't say anything about people who disagree with me and was not accusing anyone here of anything. Seriously Jeff, you're just fucking stupid sometimes. Like not mean stupid, just plain stupid stupid. You see things and you just don't think. You react like a dumb animal sometimes.
Jeff is just playing his character...
But seriously, all people react like a stupid animal at times. That's not a surprise since we have many basic nervous and endocrine responses in common with most mammals.
I appreciate you reminding me, in your own way, that we're all in this together. I shouldn't react like that to Jeff. He means well, and he's a true blue nerd which I appreciate. I just get frustrated sometimes.
Sorry about that Jeff.
Your apology is a lie. An attempt to convince the reader that you really aren't such a misguided useful idiot.
See, we are not in this together. You have identified that you are woke and will say anything to help promote those ideals. You will ignore all common sense and be intellectually dishonest in your arguments. You are nothing more than a cheerleader whose pseudointellectualism makes himself feel clever.
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 07, 2022, 10:35:53 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 08:52:35 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 07, 2022, 08:26:31 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 08:10:37 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on May 07, 2022, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Jesus I am not seeing the Q-Annon Right trying to rehabilitate Tojo and the Japanese Empire blaming America for Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, and claiming China would have beat Japan if the U.S. had just left Japan alone and not gotten involved.
Seriously, every time I think the Q-Right cannot get stupider they prove there is no bar set too low for them to go lower and stupider.
Wow. I knew that you were a liar, but I hadn't thought that you were "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" level of fucked up until now.
WTF are you talking about? I didn't say anything about people who disagree with me and was not accusing anyone here of anything. Seriously Jeff, you're just fucking stupid sometimes. Like not mean stupid, just plain stupid stupid. You see things and you just don't think. You react like a dumb animal sometimes.
Jeff is just playing his character...
But seriously, all people react like a stupid animal at times. That's not a surprise since we have many basic nervous and endocrine responses in common with most mammals.
I appreciate you reminding me, in your own way, that we're all in this together. I shouldn't react like that to Jeff. He means well, and he's a true blue nerd which I appreciate. I just get frustrated sometimes.
Sorry about that Jeff.
Your apology is a lie. An attempt to convince the reader that you really aren't such a misguided useful idiot.
See, we are not in this together. You have identified that you are woke and will say anything to help promote those ideals. You will ignore all common sense and be intellectually dishonest in your arguments. You are nothing more than a cheerleader whose pseudointellectualism makes himself feel clever.
LOL I am woke? You're a funny guy Jeff.
A Mouthpiece of the establishment has spoken:
Kissinger says Ukraine should cede territory to Russia to end war:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/24/henry-kissinger-ukraine-russia-territory-davos/
Kissinger has probably just been compromised, and is nothing more than a Russian propagandist now.
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 10:49:30 PM
LOL I am woke? You're a funny guy Jeff.
I don't know about funny, you know, it's unkind to laugh at the mentally retarded or those entrenched so deep into cults that they can't see sunlight, it's really not their fault.
Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on May 31, 2022, 05:19:23 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on May 07, 2022, 10:49:30 PM
LOL I am woke? You're a funny guy Jeff.
I don't know about funny, you know, it's unkind to laugh at the mentally retarded or those entrenched so deep into cults that they can't see sunlight, it's really not their fault.
1) Jeff's a smart guy. We just disagree on a lot of political topics.
2) "mentally retarded" is a phrase which went out of style over a decade ago, old man.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 01, 2022, 01:02:47 AM2) "mentally retarded" is a phrase which went out of style over a decade ago, old man.
Is calling somebody stupid/dumb better? "You don't meet the qualifications for mental health problems, so insulting your mental faculties is justified"
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 01, 2022, 10:11:35 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 01, 2022, 01:02:47 AM2) "mentally retarded" is a phrase which went out of style over a decade ago, old man.
Is calling somebody stupid/dumb better? "You don't meet the qualifications for mental health problems, so insulting your mental faculties is justified"
Yes. You insulting someone is at least treating them equally.
Thanks to the US Uniparty idiocy, the time for peaceful solutions for Ukraine is done. Two months ago, ceding the ethnically Russian areas to Russia would have ended the hostilities. Today? I doubt Putin will accept anything less than total surrender of Ukraine.
And I wouldn't blame him. The West needs to be a taught a lesson, and losing their corrupt paradise will just be the start.
The most meaningful long term resolution would be Vodka Man Bad forcing millions of Ukrainian refugees into Europe. No, not the fake refugees we've already seen. Actual White Christian Slavs flooding into Sweden, the UK, Germany and France. THAT would be hysterical as a force of cultural change.
Of course, we'd instantly see the EU babbling why there's no possible way any EU country could possibly take in "these kind" of refugees.
Quote from: Spinachcat on June 12, 2022, 08:38:56 PMTwo months ago, ceding the ethnically Russian areas to Russia would have ended the hostilities.
If you think THAT was what Putin was after then your a moron. Also those places where more ethnically Russian because the Ukrainian ethnic population was wiped out during Holodomor. And who says genocide doesn't pay dividends?
Christ on a cock, people still think we should have appeased Putin? Yeah, worked great with Hitler, didn't it. (And yes I know comparing people to hitler is a godwin, that does not change the fact that there are massive parallels between Hitler and Putin. )
He'll look at my countries history. The original population let the European invaders have a little, see how it worked out for them?
Russia needs stopped now. Remember that Nazi Germany's first step was seizing a neighboring state because it had a largely German population. No one thought it would cause problems later if we let Hitler have Austria.
But then again this progressive non woke Democrat actualy knows some history...
Maybe if we just threatened to take sanctions off Venezuela and use it's oil output to simply turn off what's left if Russia's economy... But nooooo! Venezuela js a 'socialist' country and of course that's far worse than Putin's Russia....
Greetings!
America, under President Trump's leadership, was oil-independent, and became an oil exporter to the world again for the first time in 50 years or more.
America doesn't need foreign oil. America certainly doesn't need to suck Venezuela's cock. Fuck commie Venezuela.
The shit-show for the economy now is all under the brilliant and absolutely mind-numbingly moronic government of the clown Biden.
Let's Go Brandon!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Shark, I commend you on your choice of an avatar and username. A carcharodon is a creature that has a tiny brain, a huge mouth and operates purely on instinct and reflex rather than any higher brain functions.
You could not have picked a better representation of yourself. Your sense of self and
honesty are surprisingly well developed.
Fuck Trump and his fucktarded traitor supporters!!! Bring on your boogaloo bitches!
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 13, 2022, 11:50:03 PMFuck Trump and his fucktarded traitor supporters!!! Bring on your boogaloo bitches!
While a bunch of crap can be laid at Trumps feet how is 'Become oil independant' an evil?
Venezuala isn't just socialist. Its also an evil dictatorship where people starve. America being an exporter of oil would do serious help for Ukraine. Why can't we re-open the oil fields that biden closed down? The same logic to be used in support of Venezuela can be used in support of Russia.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 13, 2022, 11:50:03 PM
Shark, I commend you on your choice of an avatar and username. A carcharodon is a creature that has a tiny brain, a huge mouth and operates purely on instinct and reflex rather than any higher brain functions.
You could not have picked a better representation of yourself. Your sense of self and
honesty are surprisingly well developed.
Fuck Trump and his fucktarded traitor supporters!!! Bring on your boogaloo bitches!
Can you even do 10 push ups? Can you jog a mile? I see you keep wanting some sort of fight...but I get the feeling you have either never been in one, or are a really, really long way from being ready to be in one. Though I appreciate the rants as you entertain me a great deal, please for your own sake get some exercise and sunshine.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 13, 2022, 07:47:48 PM
Christ on a cock, people still think we should have appeased Putin? Yeah, worked great with Hitler, didn't it. (And yes I know comparing people to hitler is a godwin, that does not change the fact that there are massive parallels between Hitler and Putin. )
He'll look at my countries history. The original population let the European invaders have a little, see how it worked out for them?
Russia needs stopped now. Remember that Nazi Germany's first step was seizing a neighboring state because it had a largely German population. No one thought it would cause problems later if we let Hitler have Austria.
But then again this progressive non woke Democrat actualy knows some history...
Maybe if we just threatened to take sanctions off Venezuela and use it's oil output to simply turn off what's left if Russia's economy... But nooooo! Venezuela js a 'socialist' country and of course that's far worse than Putin's Russia....
How much appeasement did Trump do as opposed to Biden, again? Funny how Putin only got up to his shenanigans when Biden, and prior to that Obama, were in the White House.
Why, it's like Trump wasn't the Russian tool at all!
But hey, keep talking mad shit. There's plenty of lampposts.
Quote from: SHARK on June 13, 2022, 11:40:50 PM
Greetings!
America, under President Trump's leadership, was oil-independent, and became an oil exporter to the world again for the first time in 50 years or more.
America doesn't need foreign oil. America certainly doesn't need to suck Venezuela's cock. Fuck commie Venezuela.
The shit-show for the economy now is all under the brilliant and absolutely mind-numbingly moronic government of the clown Biden.
Let's Go Brandon!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
This claim is false. The US never stopped importing oil under Trump.
In 2020, Trump's last full year in office, the US imported about 7.9 million barrels per day of crude oil and petroleum products. That was down from prior years – the US imported more than 10 million barrels per day in 2016, President Barack Obama's last full year – but still a whole lot of foreign energy. US energy imports from Russia spiked during the Trump presidency too. Over 137 million barrels in 2018, then 189.8 million barrels in 2019 and 197.7 million barrels in 2020.
US crude oil production in Biden's first year was higher than in each of Trump's first two years and just narrowly shy of production in Trump's last year, though substantially lower than production in Trump's record-setting third year.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 14, 2022, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 13, 2022, 07:47:48 PM
Christ on a cock, people still think we should have appeased Putin? Yeah, worked great with Hitler, didn't it. (And yes I know comparing people to hitler is a godwin, that does not change the fact that there are massive parallels between Hitler and Putin. )
He'll look at my countries history. The original population let the European invaders have a little, see how it worked out for them?
Russia needs stopped now. Remember that Nazi Germany's first step was seizing a neighboring state because it had a largely German population. No one thought it would cause problems later if we let Hitler have Austria.
But then again this progressive non woke Democrat actualy knows some history...
Maybe if we just threatened to take sanctions off Venezuela and use it's oil output to simply turn off what's left if Russia's economy... But nooooo! Venezuela js a 'socialist' country and of course that's far worse than Putin's Russia....
How much appeasement did Trump do as opposed to Biden, again? Funny how Putin only got up to his shenanigans when Biden, and prior to that Obama, were in the White House.
Why, it's like Trump wasn't the Russian tool at all!
But hey, keep talking mad shit. There's plenty of lampposts.
Oh, implied threat of murder. Just what I expect from trumpist.
I owned one gun before trump waddled for office. Before the 2020 elections I owned 4.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 14, 2022, 07:14:59 PM
I owned one gun before trump waddled for office. Before the 2020 elections I owned 4.
I'm glad Trump helped you understand the importance of the second amendment when fomenting your own insurrection!
We're more interested in stopping yours.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 14, 2022, 07:14:59 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 14, 2022, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 13, 2022, 07:47:48 PM
Christ on a cock, people still think we should have appeased Putin? Yeah, worked great with Hitler, didn't it. (And yes I know comparing people to hitler is a godwin, that does not change the fact that there are massive parallels between Hitler and Putin. )
He'll look at my countries history. The original population let the European invaders have a little, see how it worked out for them?
Russia needs stopped now. Remember that Nazi Germany's first step was seizing a neighboring state because it had a largely German population. No one thought it would cause problems later if we let Hitler have Austria.
But then again this progressive non woke Democrat actualy knows some history...
Maybe if we just threatened to take sanctions off Venezuela and use it's oil output to simply turn off what's left if Russia's economy... But nooooo! Venezuela js a 'socialist' country and of course that's far worse than Putin's Russia....
How much appeasement did Trump do as opposed to Biden, again? Funny how Putin only got up to his shenanigans when Biden, and prior to that Obama, were in the White House.
Why, it's like Trump wasn't the Russian tool at all!
But hey, keep talking mad shit. There's plenty of lampposts.
Oh, implied threat of murder. Just what I expect from trumpist.
I owned one gun before trump waddled for office. Before the 2020 elections I owned 4.
Pandemic did WONDERS for gun sales. Now spend your time exercising and learning how to actually fight, hell maybe even go out in the sunshine and shoot those guns a bit. I think you will feel better with the exercise and outside time.
At least once a month, weather permitting, I take a short range and a longer range gun out to a field with a berm along one side and target practice a dozen or so rounds.
I use pics of proud bois and other far right fascist wanna-be's as targets.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 14, 2022, 10:04:16 PM
I use pics of proud bois and other far right fascist wanna-be's as targets.
Strongly approve. It's always best when fascists attack other fascists.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 14, 2022, 10:04:16 PM
At least once a month, weather permitting, I take a short range and a longer range gun out to a field with a berm along one side and target practice a dozen or so rounds.
I use pics of proud bois and other far right fascist wanna-be's as targets.
Now get that exercise. You need it.
Remember, warfare is a democracy, and the enemy gets a vote too.
Well, you didn't have to be a genius to predict this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/13/climate/russia-oil-gas-record-revenue.html
"Russia's Oil Revenues Soar, Despite Sanctions." Oh, and Joe's plan to deal with his self-inflicted oil crisis at home is to buy more oil from India and the Netherlands. India is now Russia's #1 market for oil. So the U.S. is STILL buying Russian oil... just through middleman India at inflated prices. Normally I wouldn't believe the NY Times on anything, but since they are Biden boosters and warmongers vs. Russia, and libtards take it for the Gospel, I link the article here. Conservatives don't need convincing on the issue, Democrats and neocons do, and here's their beloved Paper of Record telling them what they don't want to hear.
Again, venezuela would be happy to sell oil to America at good prices.
Yeah yeah I know I know ''SOCIALIST! HORRIBLE GOVERNEMNT! CORRUPT! '' Same old shit the CIA said about every fucking country that refused to be dominated by US corporate interests. Yawn. Not buying it anymore.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 15, 2022, 10:55:37 PM
Again, venezuela would be happy to sell oil to America at good prices.
Yeah yeah I know I know ''SOCIALIST! HORRIBLE GOVERNEMNT! CORRUPT! '' Same old shit the CIA said about every fucking country that refused to be dominated by US corporate interests. Yawn. Not buying it anymore.
How about we lift the embargoes on both Venezuela and Russia?
It's not like sanctions work. I can't name a single country where barring free trade has led to the regime being overthrown and replaced by some happy democracy.
Wwweeeeeelllllllllll now, you may have a point, but some would say sanctions did cause the apartheid government of sohth Africa to collapse.
Still, while it may well be true that sanctions alone never converted a bad regime to a less bad one, they sure as hell can make it harder on them. Cuba has had to learn to keep cars running for decades because they haven't gotten new ones for a long, long time.
South Africa found them quite hard to function under.
Iran's nuclear program has been crippled by sanctions, and sabatoge.
North Korea can't even keep most of the country lit after dark.
Putin's Russia is suffering heavily under sanctions, and they have not even reached maximum levels yet.
So sanctions alone may not have brought many, if any, regimes down but they are certainly of some to considerable effect.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 15, 2022, 10:55:37 PM
Again, venezuela would be happy to sell oil to America at good prices.
Yeah yeah I know I know ''SOCIALIST! HORRIBLE GOVERNEMNT! CORRUPT! '' Same old shit the CIA said about every fucking country that refused to be dominated by US corporate interests. Yawn. Not buying it anymore.
From Amnesty International:
The ongoing human rights crisis was compounded by the effects of the Covid-19 pandemic. The policy of repression implemented by the government of Nicolás Maduro continued, including further reports of extrajudicial executions, excessive use of force, arbitrary detentions and torture and other ill-treatment against those perceived as critical of the government. Human rights defenders, journalists and activists were subjected to intimidation, harassment, attacks and detention. The humanitarian emergency worsened and violations of economic, social, cultural and environmental rights persisted, with an increasingly weakened healthcare system and shortages of water, fuel, food and electricity. Impunity for human rights violations remained the norm. The UN Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) on Venezuela documented and condemned systemic impunity, and the ICC Office of the Prosecutor found there were grounds to believe that crimes against humanity had been committed in Venezuela and announced the opening of a formal investigation.
Yeah yeah I know I know ''SOCIALIST! Give them a pass!" but yeah...only if you're devoid of ethics and way into moral equivalency such that you no longer see variations in degrees of horribleness between nations.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 15, 2022, 11:50:51 PM
Wwweeeeeelllllllllll now, you may have a point, but some would say sanctions did cause the apartheid government of sohth Africa to collapse.
Still, while it may well be true that sanctions alone never converted a bad regime to a less bad one, they sure as hell can make it harder on them. Cuba has had to learn to keep cars running for decades because they haven't gotten new ones for a long, long time.
South Africa found them quite hard to function under.
Iran's nuclear program has been crippled by sanctions, and sabatoge.
North Korea can't even keep most of the country lit after dark.
Putin's Russia is suffering heavily under sanctions, and they have not even reached maximum levels yet.
So sanctions alone may not have brought many, if any, regimes down but they are certainly of some to considerable effect.
Yes, and that effect is to hurt the normal people in the countries. The leaders and their allies live in privilege, while the rest of the country suffers.
Liberalization of trade doesn't necessarily cause regime either, see China. But it does make the people of the country better off, not just the elites. The situation in North Korea, for instance, is hellish. An entire generation of babies in the 1990s were born with large heads and small bodies, because there wasn't enough nutrition. It's also a moral imperative from an individual autonomy standpoint, because trade is fundamentally the voluntary exchange between individuals, to their mutual advantage. That's a basic human right, and should be treated as one.
There is an argument for the tactical application of sanctions. While sanctions haven't stopped long term goals, like South Korea and their missiles or Iran and their nuclear program, they can slow down and hinder them. Cuba is a good example, being on the doorstep of their major enemy, and with remote and often indifferent allies. Restrictions on trade can also target specific problems, like China and their lack or regard for intellectual property, or their use of foreign companies to help develop their military technologies, by the intermingling ostensibly public companies with the CCP. But in that case, it should be used as a narrowly targeted component of a general offensive, which might include diplomacy, spies, and even conflict.
In the cases of Russia and Venezuela and their oil, the sanctions seem purely punitive. They're intended to hurt Maduro and Putin out of a sense of outrage, not to achieve specific and achievable goals. But it's not the leaders who suffer the most consequences, and in Russia's case, it's just causing a rearrangement of supply chains rather than blocking exports anyway. Most of the world doesn't agree with the sanctions, so the oil is just being re-routed.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 15, 2022, 10:55:37 PM
Again, venezuela would be happy to sell oil to America at good prices.
How about the U.S. just pump its own oil?
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 15, 2022, 10:55:37 PM
Again, venezuela would be happy to sell oil to America at good prices.
What evidence do you have that they would?
It is almost solely due to the fact that the US not only refuses to buy their oil, but the USA has also put an incredibly aggressive set of sanctions against them such to the effect that the nation refuses to deal business of any sort with any OTHER nation that does business with Venezuela.
The sanctions in place are absolutely devastating despite the fact that the nation really does have the potential to be one of our greatest trade partners. The whole situation there is a mess of our own making, if you're interested it is pretty easily researched independently and without having to rely on corporate-controlled MSM as it's really well documented. It didn't exactly start in 2002 with the US-backed coup that failed spectacularly against Hugo Chavez, but that's sort of the biggest component of it all. I highly suggest, if any of you are actually interested in the topic, to research just how fucked the whole situation of Latin American political and economic interventions by the US over the last twenty or so years.
The most fucked part of all of it too is that V has more known oil reserves than any other nation, Saudi Arabia included. There is really only one complication with it, one that makes it even trickier for other nations to just eat the cost of the US sanctions in that the resources that V has is known as "sour crude" in that it contains significantly higher amounts of sulfur, and guess which nation has more or less the only infrastructure to handle, convert, and make use of said sour crude.... I'll give you three guesses, one for each letter of the nation's abbreviation. So yeah, even if other nations WANTED to just eat the cost of dealing with V and their sour crude they just literally don't have the technology to make good use of it without investing tens of billions on new refineries of their own and waiting several years to actually contruct them.
As for why we don't drill for more oil, you'd have to simply listen to the US oil companies who have openly stated that even though they do already have plenty of drilling and extraction rights as-is, they have absolutely no interest in increasing domestic supply, instead, they are far more interested in keeping the supply they create as-is and instead just milking the artificial scarcity the situation creates in order to enact share buybacks and to increase the pad in their own wallets. The company leadership has openly stated this is the case several times this year alone during interviews with numerous outlets, it's a greed issue. They fully intend on maintaining the current supply without increasing it out of the sheer fact that if they ramped up production it would cost them not only to build the wells and to extract/deliver the oil, it would also bring the net price of every barrel down, in other words, it's bad for their profits and bottom line so they and their shareholders are just 100% against the idea. On top of this, the USA is also a net oil EXPORTER too as we ship out more oil from what we produce than we consume and due to that we actually have to rely on buying BACK even more oil from other nations just to meet domestic supply needs.
Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on June 17, 2022, 08:33:29 PM
It is almost solely due to the fact that the US not only refuses to buy their oil, but the USA has also put an incredibly aggressive set of sanctions against them such to the effect that the nation refuses to deal business of any sort with any OTHER nation that does business with Venezuela.
The sanctions in place are absolutely devastating despite the fact that the nation really does have the potential to be one of our greatest trade partners. The whole situation there is a mess of our own making, if you're interested it is pretty easily researched independently and without having to rely on corporate-controlled MSM as it's really well documented. It didn't exactly start in 2002 with the US-backed coup that failed spectacularly against Hugo Chavez, but that's sort of the biggest component of it all. I highly suggest, if any of you are actually interested in the topic, to research just how fucked the whole situation of Latin American political and economic interventions by the US over the last twenty or so years.
The most fucked part of all of it too is that V has more known oil reserves than any other nation, Saudi Arabia included. There is really only one complication with it, one that makes it even trickier for other nations to just eat the cost of the US sanctions in that the resources that V has is known as "sour crude" in that it contains significantly higher amounts of sulfur, and guess which nation has more or less the only infrastructure to handle, convert, and make use of said sour crude.... I'll give you three guesses, one for each letter of the nation's abbreviation. So yeah, even if other nations WANTED to just eat the cost of dealing with V and their sour crude they just literally don't have the technology to make good use of it without investing tens of billions on new refineries of their own and waiting several years to actually contruct them.
As for why we don't drill for more oil, you'd have to simply listen to the US oil companies who have openly stated that even though they do already have plenty of drilling and extraction rights as-is, they have absolutely no interest in increasing domestic supply, instead, they are far more interested in keeping the supply they create as-is and instead just milking the artificial scarcity the situation creates in order to enact share buybacks and to increase the pad in their own wallets. The company leadership has openly stated this is the case several times this year alone during interviews with numerous outlets, it's a greed issue. They fully intend on maintaining the current supply without increasing it out of the sheer fact that if they ramped up production it would cost them not only to build the wells and to extract/deliver the oil, it would also bring the net price of every barrel down, in other words, it's bad for their profits and bottom line so they and their shareholders are just 100% against the idea. On top of this, the USA is also a net oil EXPORTER too as we ship out more oil from what we produce than we consume and due to that we actually have to rely on buying BACK even more oil from other nations just to meet domestic supply needs.
What are your sources for this information?
otherwise
https://fb.watch/dIXKYKcu2y/ (https://fb.watch/dIXKYKcu2y/)
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 17, 2022, 10:22:07 PM
Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on June 17, 2022, 08:33:29 PM
It is almost solely due to the fact that the US not only refuses to buy their oil, but the USA has also put an incredibly aggressive set of sanctions against them such to the effect that the nation refuses to deal business of any sort with any OTHER nation that does business with Venezuela.
The sanctions in place are absolutely devastating despite the fact that the nation really does have the potential to be one of our greatest trade partners. The whole situation there is a mess of our own making, if you're interested it is pretty easily researched independently and without having to rely on corporate-controlled MSM as it's really well documented. It didn't exactly start in 2002 with the US-backed coup that failed spectacularly against Hugo Chavez, but that's sort of the biggest component of it all. I highly suggest, if any of you are actually interested in the topic, to research just how fucked the whole situation of Latin American political and economic interventions by the US over the last twenty or so years.
The most fucked part of all of it too is that V has more known oil reserves than any other nation, Saudi Arabia included. There is really only one complication with it, one that makes it even trickier for other nations to just eat the cost of the US sanctions in that the resources that V has is known as "sour crude" in that it contains significantly higher amounts of sulfur, and guess which nation has more or less the only infrastructure to handle, convert, and make use of said sour crude.... I'll give you three guesses, one for each letter of the nation's abbreviation. So yeah, even if other nations WANTED to just eat the cost of dealing with V and their sour crude they just literally don't have the technology to make good use of it without investing tens of billions on new refineries of their own and waiting several years to actually contruct them.
As for why we don't drill for more oil, you'd have to simply listen to the US oil companies who have openly stated that even though they do already have plenty of drilling and extraction rights as-is, they have absolutely no interest in increasing domestic supply, instead, they are far more interested in keeping the supply they create as-is and instead just milking the artificial scarcity the situation creates in order to enact share buybacks and to increase the pad in their own wallets. The company leadership has openly stated this is the case several times this year alone during interviews with numerous outlets, it's a greed issue. They fully intend on maintaining the current supply without increasing it out of the sheer fact that if they ramped up production it would cost them not only to build the wells and to extract/deliver the oil, it would also bring the net price of every barrel down, in other words, it's bad for their profits and bottom line so they and their shareholders are just 100% against the idea. On top of this, the USA is also a net oil EXPORTER too as we ship out more oil from what we produce than we consume and due to that we actually have to rely on buying BACK even more oil from other nations just to meet domestic supply needs.
What are your sources for this information?
That checks out with what I know. Here are some sources that I know of, going from last claims first:
1) U.S. oil companies resisting drilling
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oil-production-prices-us-companies-wont-increase-2022-dallas-fed-survey/
2) Venezuela has the world's largest oil reserve.
https://www.worldometers.info/oil/oil-reserves-by-country/
3) Venezuela's sour crude
https://www.strausscenter.org/energy-and-security-project/venezuela/
4) About the 2002 coup attempt and interventions in Venezuela
https://time.com/5512005/venezuela-us-intervention-history-latin-america/
5) Effect of sanctions on Venezuela
https://www.csis.org/analysis/are-sanctions-working-venezuela
Note that Maduro is a horrible dictator and the sanctions did not cause the economic and humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. Still, they did exacerbate it, and we trade all the time with many other non-democratic countries like Saudi Arabia and China. Sanctions should not starve citizens of a country, but there should be more moderate sanctions to limit the power of that country.
Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on June 17, 2022, 08:33:29 PM
As for why we don't drill for more oil, you'd have to simply listen to the US oil companies who have openly stated that even though they do already have plenty of drilling and extraction rights as-is, they have absolutely no interest in increasing domestic supply, instead, they are far more interested in keeping the supply they create as-is and instead just milking the artificial scarcity the situation creates in order to enact share buybacks and to increase the pad in their own wallets. The company leadership has openly stated this is the case several times this year alone during interviews with numerous outlets, it's a greed issue. They fully intend on maintaining the current supply without increasing it out of the sheer fact that if they ramped up production it would cost them not only to build the wells and to extract/deliver the oil, it would also bring the net price of every barrel down, in other words, it's bad for their profits and bottom line so they and their shareholders are just 100% against the idea. On top of this, the USA is also a net oil EXPORTER too as we ship out more oil from what we produce than we consume and due to that we actually have to rely on buying BACK even more oil from other nations just to meet domestic supply needs.
So oil companies only got greedy after Biden was elected? Because the gas prices were pretty stable for four years, then started going up about a week after Biden killed the Keystone pipeline, and have been rising ever since. Odd how the whole thing just coincidentally happened with the election of a president who basically took the oil of the #1 oil-producing nation on earth off the market (and a lot of Canada's too, thanks to killing the pipeline), something he promised to do more than once on the campaign trail. I would have thought that taking a bunch of oil out of the global market would reduce the supply, and therefore increase the price, but now I know that oil companies which were all moral, responsible actors while Trump was in office (as evidenced by the low gas prices) suddenly became complete bastards the minute Biden was elected. Interesting.
Some of you guys must have head injuries. Biden ran on KILLING DOMESTIC DRILLING. If you run a major corporation and the guy running the nation has said he wants your industry to die....what sort of idiot are you to sink tons of money into trying to expand that industry in the nation that is openly and aggressively hostile to you? This is not hard to figure out who is to blame for any pinch on oil. If you voted for Biden and are now sad about gas, well fuck yourself since you are carrying a self inflicted wound. Just bandage it and convince yourself you got rid of the mean tweet hitler and move on.
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 12:16:19 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 17, 2022, 10:22:07 PM
Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on June 17, 2022, 08:33:29 PM
It is almost solely due to the fact that the US not only refuses to buy their oil, but the USA has also put an incredibly aggressive set of sanctions against them such to the effect that the nation refuses to deal business of any sort with any OTHER nation that does business with Venezuela.
The sanctions in place are absolutely devastating despite the fact that the nation really does have the potential to be one of our greatest trade partners. The whole situation there is a mess of our own making, if you're interested it is pretty easily researched independently and without having to rely on corporate-controlled MSM as it's really well documented. It didn't exactly start in 2002 with the US-backed coup that failed spectacularly against Hugo Chavez, but that's sort of the biggest component of it all. I highly suggest, if any of you are actually interested in the topic, to research just how fucked the whole situation of Latin American political and economic interventions by the US over the last twenty or so years.
The most fucked part of all of it too is that V has more known oil reserves than any other nation, Saudi Arabia included. There is really only one complication with it, one that makes it even trickier for other nations to just eat the cost of the US sanctions in that the resources that V has is known as "sour crude" in that it contains significantly higher amounts of sulfur, and guess which nation has more or less the only infrastructure to handle, convert, and make use of said sour crude.... I'll give you three guesses, one for each letter of the nation's abbreviation. So yeah, even if other nations WANTED to just eat the cost of dealing with V and their sour crude they just literally don't have the technology to make good use of it without investing tens of billions on new refineries of their own and waiting several years to actually contruct them.
As for why we don't drill for more oil, you'd have to simply listen to the US oil companies who have openly stated that even though they do already have plenty of drilling and extraction rights as-is, they have absolutely no interest in increasing domestic supply, instead, they are far more interested in keeping the supply they create as-is and instead just milking the artificial scarcity the situation creates in order to enact share buybacks and to increase the pad in their own wallets. The company leadership has openly stated this is the case several times this year alone during interviews with numerous outlets, it's a greed issue. They fully intend on maintaining the current supply without increasing it out of the sheer fact that if they ramped up production it would cost them not only to build the wells and to extract/deliver the oil, it would also bring the net price of every barrel down, in other words, it's bad for their profits and bottom line so they and their shareholders are just 100% against the idea. On top of this, the USA is also a net oil EXPORTER too as we ship out more oil from what we produce than we consume and due to that we actually have to rely on buying BACK even more oil from other nations just to meet domestic supply needs.
What are your sources for this information?
That checks out with what I know. Here are some sources that I know of, going from last claims first:
1) U.S. oil companies resisting drilling
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oil-production-prices-us-companies-wont-increase-2022-dallas-fed-survey/
2) Venezuela has the world's largest oil reserve.
https://www.worldometers.info/oil/oil-reserves-by-country/
3) Venezuela's sour crude
https://www.strausscenter.org/energy-and-security-project/venezuela/
4) About the 2002 coup attempt and interventions in Venezuela
https://time.com/5512005/venezuela-us-intervention-history-latin-america/
5) Effect of sanctions on Venezuela
https://www.csis.org/analysis/are-sanctions-working-venezuela
Note that Maduro is a horrible dictator and the sanctions did not cause the economic and humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. Still, they did exacerbate it, and we trade all the time with many other non-democratic countries like Saudi Arabia and China. Sanctions should not starve citizens of a country, but there should be more moderate sanctions to limit the power of that country.
Shut the fuck up already. Everyone who reads your posts knows that jhkim cherry picks his answers to maintain his intellectually dishonest stance.
Quote from: I on June 18, 2022, 01:27:25 AM
So oil companies only got greedy after Biden was elected? Because the gas prices were pretty stable for four years, then started going up about a week after Biden killed the Keystone pipeline, and have been rising ever since. Odd how the whole thing just coincidentally happened with the election of a president who basically took the oil of the #1 oil-producing nation on earth off the market (and a lot of Canada's too, thanks to killing the pipeline), something he promised to do more than once on the campaign trail.
Here are U.S. gas prices for the twenty years prior to the Ukraine war.
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/gas-prices-jan-2022.png)
Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=QJUh
Yes, prices have risen since Biden became president, but the claim that they were stable for the four years before then isn't so clear - and in general, the price has never been stable. Prior to the Ukraine war, prices in January were less than the Bush peak and the Obama peak - and roughly equal to the Trump peak in 2018.
In general, yes, environmentalist policies will raise gas prices. It's cheaper if oil companies can freely pollute. But there's also a lot of variability in gas prices from many other factors.
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 11:47:17 AM
Quote from: I on June 18, 2022, 01:27:25 AM
So oil companies only got greedy after Biden was elected? Because the gas prices were pretty stable for four years, then started going up about a week after Biden killed the Keystone pipeline, and have been rising ever since. Odd how the whole thing just coincidentally happened with the election of a president who basically took the oil of the #1 oil-producing nation on earth off the market (and a lot of Canada's too, thanks to killing the pipeline), something he promised to do more than once on the campaign trail.
Here are U.S. gas prices for the twenty years prior to the Ukraine war.
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/gas-prices-jan-2022.png)
Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=QJUh
Yes, prices have risen since Biden became president, but the claim that they were stable for the four years before then isn't so clear - and in general, the price has never been stable. Prior to the Ukraine war, prices in January were less than the Bush peak and the Obama peak - and roughly equal to the Trump peak in 2018.
In general, yes, environmentalist policies will raise gas prices. It's cheaper if oil companies can freely pollute. But there's also a lot of variability in gas prices from many other factors.
And the Climate Change Cultist shouts his sermon from the tent!
Notice jhkim doesn't bother to point out the steady rise in gas prices during the Obama administration when Green Energy boondoggles were being funded and subsidized, or the sudden drop and decline in gas prices during the Trump Administration, nor the steady rise to lofty new heights with the Biden Administration.
You are not smarter than the average bear, jhkim. Many people reading this forum know how to interpret the results of a graph honestly.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 18, 2022, 12:12:10 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 11:47:17 AM
Here are U.S. gas prices for the twenty years prior to the Ukraine war.
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/gas-prices-jan-2022.png)
Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=QJUh
Yes, prices have risen since Biden became president, but the claim that they were stable for the four years before then isn't so clear - and in general, the price has never been stable. Prior to the Ukraine war, prices in January were less than the Bush peak and the Obama peak - and roughly equal to the Trump peak in 2018.
In general, yes, environmentalist policies will raise gas prices. It's cheaper if oil companies can freely pollute. But there's also a lot of variability in gas prices from many other factors.
Notice jhkim doesn't bother to point out the steady rise in gas prices during the Obama administration when Green Energy boondoggles were being funded and subsidized, or the sudden drop and decline in gas prices during the Trump Administration, nor the steady rise to lofty new heights with the Biden Administration.
In what I see, the prices drop precipitously from June 2014 to the second lowest point on the graph in Feb 2016 ($1.724). That's nearly a year *before* Trump becomes president in Jan 2017, when Obama was still in charge.
Prices then rise to $2.233 in Nov 2016. At that point, Trump is elected, and prices continue to rise for most of the next two years coming to a local high of $2.940 in May 2018. It then fluctuates before plummeting during the pandemic in 2020.
I don't think most of these variations have anything to do with environmentalist policies.
(https://axlewise.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/20-year-gas-prices.jpeg)
Quote from: DocJones on June 18, 2022, 04:16:51 PM
(https://axlewise.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/20-year-gas-prices.jpeg)
DocJones, the blue inflation adjusted numbers on the graphic don't make sense to me. It is saying that that 2012 price of $3.70 is converted into $2.30 in 2020 dollars? But that suggests there was massive deflation between 2012 and 2020. If I put $3.70 in 2012 dollars into an inflation calculator, I get $4.17 in 2020 dollars.
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
Something seems massively off in the inflation numbers.
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 12:46:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 18, 2022, 12:12:10 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 11:47:17 AM
Here are U.S. gas prices for the twenty years prior to the Ukraine war.
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/gas-prices-jan-2022.png)
Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=QJUh
Yes, prices have risen since Biden became president, but the claim that they were stable for the four years before then isn't so clear - and in general, the price has never been stable. Prior to the Ukraine war, prices in January were less than the Bush peak and the Obama peak - and roughly equal to the Trump peak in 2018.
In general, yes, environmentalist policies will raise gas prices. It's cheaper if oil companies can freely pollute. But there's also a lot of variability in gas prices from many other factors.
Notice jhkim doesn't bother to point out the steady rise in gas prices during the Obama administration when Green Energy boondoggles were being funded and subsidized, or the sudden drop and decline in gas prices during the Trump Administration, nor the steady rise to lofty new heights with the Biden Administration.
In what I see, the prices drop precipitously from June 2014 to the second lowest point on the graph in Feb 2016 ($1.724). That's nearly a year *before* Trump becomes president in Jan 2017, when Obama was still in charge.
Prices then rise to $2.233 in Nov 2016. At that point, Trump is elected, and prices continue to rise for most of the next two years coming to a local high of $2.940 in May 2018. It then fluctuates before plummeting during the pandemic in 2020.
I don't think most of these variations have anything to do with environmentalist policies.
Killing the Keystone Pipeline and halting drilling in the US has nothing to do with environmentalist policies or the price of gas according to jhkim.
The reader can decide for themselves whether or not jhkim is lying and being intellectually dishonest.
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 06:28:02 PM
DocJones, the blue inflation adjusted numbers on the graphic don't make sense to me. It is saying that that 2012 price of $3.70 is converted into $2.30 in 2020 dollars? But that suggests there was massive deflation between 2012 and 2020. If I put $3.70 in 2012 dollars into an inflation calculator, I get $4.17 in 2020 dollars.
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
Something seems massively off in the inflation numbers.
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/gasoline-prices-adjusted-for-inflation/
Greetings!
In late 2020, I paid just over two dollars per gallon, of *Premium Fuel*--Regular gas, at that time, was less than two dollars per gallon. I filled my Mercedes up, and it cost me like 30 dollars.
Now, with fucking Biden and the goddamned Liberals in charge, I'm paying five fucking dollars per gallon!
Biden and all of the "Green Environmentalists" and the cock-sucking Liberals can all choke on fucking *NAPALM*. These fucking clowns are so terrible at running a goddamned government efficiently. I wouldn't put them in charge of cleaning a fucking outhouse.
NO MORE MEAN TWEETS!!! *Laughing*
Fucking clowns.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on June 19, 2022, 07:35:43 AM
Biden and all of the "Green Environmentalists" and the cock-sucking Liberals can all choke on fucking *NAPALM*. These fucking clowns are so terrible at running a goddamned government efficiently. I wouldn't put them in charge of cleaning a fucking outhouse.
The Leftists planned ahead for this... because the gelled gasoline will also cost you over $5 a gallon. Their plan is to literally impoverish us to the point we can't actually get to them to exact justice for their criminal acts.
The thought of ordinary Americans starving and freezing to death because of their policies gives them the same boner it did the Communists who enacted the Holodomer. The effects of these policies aren't a mistake, they're a planned feature.
Quote from: SHARK on June 19, 2022, 07:35:43 AM
Greetings!
In late 2020, I paid just over two dollars per gallon, of *Premium Fuel*--Regular gas, at that time, was less than two dollars per gallon. I filled my Mercedes up, and it cost me like 30 dollars.
Now, with fucking Biden and the goddamned Liberals in charge, I'm paying five fucking dollars per gallon!
Biden and all of the "Green Environmentalists" and the cock-sucking Liberals can all choke on fucking *NAPALM*. These fucking clowns are so terrible at running a goddamned government efficiently. I wouldn't put them in charge of cleaning a fucking outhouse.
NO MORE MEAN TWEETS!!! *Laughing*
Fucking clowns.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
That's pretty outrageous.
> Their plan is to literally impoverish us to the point we can't actually get to them to exact justice for their criminal acts.
Can you weaponize hand sanitizer? Asking for a friend... :-)
Quote from: DocJones on June 18, 2022, 10:27:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 06:28:02 PM
DocJones, the blue inflation adjusted numbers on the graphic don't make sense to me. It is saying that that 2012 price of $3.70 is converted into $2.30 in 2020 dollars? But that suggests there was massive deflation between 2012 and 2020. If I put $3.70 in 2012 dollars into an inflation calculator, I get $4.17 in 2020 dollars.
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
Something seems massively off in the inflation numbers.
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/gasoline-prices-adjusted-for-inflation/
Thanks, DocJones. That link has an explanation of the calculation, and the numbers are very different from the Axlewise infographic. Just taking the last three years of inflation-adjusted prices:
2019: Axlewise $2.26 , inflationcalculator $3.070
2020: Axlewise $2.24 , inflationcalculator $3.049
2021: Axlewise $3.13 , inflationcalculator $3.133
Quote from: jhkim on June 19, 2022, 06:43:08 PM
Quote from: DocJones on June 18, 2022, 10:27:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 06:28:02 PM
DocJones, the blue inflation adjusted numbers on the graphic don't make sense to me. It is saying that that 2012 price of $3.70 is converted into $2.30 in 2020 dollars? But that suggests there was massive deflation between 2012 and 2020. If I put $3.70 in 2012 dollars into an inflation calculator, I get $4.17 in 2020 dollars.
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
Something seems massively off in the inflation numbers.
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/gasoline-prices-adjusted-for-inflation/
Thanks, DocJones. That link has an explanation of the calculation, and the numbers are very different from the Axlewise infographic. Just taking the last three years of inflation-adjusted prices:
2019: Axlewise $2.26 , inflationcalculator $3.070
2020: Axlewise $2.24 , inflationcalculator $3.049
2021: Axlewise $3.13 , inflationcalculator $3.133
"You drink from a camelback of lies" - Kill Team Kill
Quote from: jhkim on June 19, 2022, 06:43:08 PM
Thanks, DocJones. That link has an explanation of the calculation, and the numbers are very different from the Axlewise infographic. Just taking the last three years of inflation-adjusted prices:
They use the same data just a different base year for dollars (2020 vs. 2021).
There is a huge difference in the inflation rate between 2020 and 2021.
Quote from: DocJones on June 19, 2022, 08:14:02 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 19, 2022, 06:43:08 PM
Thanks, DocJones. That link has an explanation of the calculation, and the numbers are very different from the Axlewise infographic. Just taking the last three years of inflation-adjusted prices:
2019: Axlewise $2.26 , inflationcalculator $3.070
2020: Axlewise $2.24 , inflationcalculator $3.049
2021: Axlewise $3.13 , inflationcalculator $3.133
They use the same data just a different base year for dollars (2020 vs. 2021).
There is a huge difference in the inflation rate between 2020 and 2021.
The base year should just be a choice of what units to report in, though. The inflation-adjusted graph should be the same shape regardless of what base year one chooses. It's just that all the numbers would be adjusted by a fixed proportion. For example, according to usinflationcalculator, the conversion from 2020 dollars to 2021 dollars is 4.7%. So we should be able to convert from 2020 dollars to 2021 dollars by applying a factor of 1.047 on everything.
I can't apply a factor of x1.047 to the Axlewise graph to get the inflationcalculator graph. The Axlewise infographic has completely different *shape* from the usinflationcalculator graph.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 18, 2022, 06:39:55 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 12:46:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 18, 2022, 12:12:10 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 11:47:17 AM
Here are U.S. gas prices for the twenty years prior to the Ukraine war.
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/gas-prices-jan-2022.png)
Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=QJUh
Yes, prices have risen since Biden became president, but the claim that they were stable for the four years before then isn't so clear - and in general, the price has never been stable. Prior to the Ukraine war, prices in January were less than the Bush peak and the Obama peak - and roughly equal to the Trump peak in 2018.
In general, yes, environmentalist policies will raise gas prices. It's cheaper if oil companies can freely pollute. But there's also a lot of variability in gas prices from many other factors.
Notice jhkim doesn't bother to point out the steady rise in gas prices during the Obama administration when Green Energy boondoggles were being funded and subsidized, or the sudden drop and decline in gas prices during the Trump Administration, nor the steady rise to lofty new heights with the Biden Administration.
In what I see, the prices drop precipitously from June 2014 to the second lowest point on the graph in Feb 2016 ($1.724). That's nearly a year *before* Trump becomes president in Jan 2017, when Obama was still in charge.
Prices then rise to $2.233 in Nov 2016. At that point, Trump is elected, and prices continue to rise for most of the next two years coming to a local high of $2.940 in May 2018. It then fluctuates before plummeting during the pandemic in 2020.
I don't think most of these variations have anything to do with environmentalist policies.
Killing the Keystone Pipeline and halting drilling in the US has nothing to do with environmentalist policies or the price of gas according to jhkim.
The reader can decide for themselves whether or not jhkim is lying and being intellectually dishonest.
jeff37923, if you read what you just quoted, I specifically said this:
"In general, yes, environmentalist policies will raise gas prices. It's cheaper if oil companies can freely pollute. But there's also a lot of variability in gas prices from many other factors." You claimed that there was a
"sudden drop and decline in gas prices during the Trump Administration" -- but that is not what is shown on the graph. Gas prices dramatically dropped from Jun 2014 to Feb 2016, which is during
Obama's presidency, while gas prices mildly rose during the first two years of Trump's presidency which started in Jan 2017.
I am not lying about any of that. The record is in your own quoting history and on the graph itself.
Quote from: jhkim on June 20, 2022, 02:50:17 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 18, 2022, 06:39:55 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 12:46:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 18, 2022, 12:12:10 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2022, 11:47:17 AM
Here are U.S. gas prices for the twenty years prior to the Ukraine war.
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/gas-prices-jan-2022.png)
Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=QJUh
Yes, prices have risen since Biden became president, but the claim that they were stable for the four years before then isn't so clear - and in general, the price has never been stable. Prior to the Ukraine war, prices in January were less than the Bush peak and the Obama peak - and roughly equal to the Trump peak in 2018.
In general, yes, environmentalist policies will raise gas prices. It's cheaper if oil companies can freely pollute. But there's also a lot of variability in gas prices from many other factors.
Notice jhkim doesn't bother to point out the steady rise in gas prices during the Obama administration when Green Energy boondoggles were being funded and subsidized, or the sudden drop and decline in gas prices during the Trump Administration, nor the steady rise to lofty new heights with the Biden Administration.
In what I see, the prices drop precipitously from June 2014 to the second lowest point on the graph in Feb 2016 ($1.724). That's nearly a year *before* Trump becomes president in Jan 2017, when Obama was still in charge.
Prices then rise to $2.233 in Nov 2016. At that point, Trump is elected, and prices continue to rise for most of the next two years coming to a local high of $2.940 in May 2018. It then fluctuates before plummeting during the pandemic in 2020.
I don't think most of these variations have anything to do with environmentalist policies.
Killing the Keystone Pipeline and halting drilling in the US has nothing to do with environmentalist policies or the price of gas according to jhkim.
The reader can decide for themselves whether or not jhkim is lying and being intellectually dishonest.
jeff37923, if you read what you just quoted, I specifically said this: "In general, yes, environmentalist policies will raise gas prices. It's cheaper if oil companies can freely pollute. But there's also a lot of variability in gas prices from many other factors."
You claimed that there was a "sudden drop and decline in gas prices during the Trump Administration" -- but that is not what is shown on the graph. Gas prices dramatically dropped from Jun 2014 to Feb 2016, which is during Obama's presidency, while gas prices mildly rose during the first two years of Trump's presidency which started in Jan 2017.
I am not lying about any of that. The record is in your own quoting history and on the graph itself.
Nope.
Based on your previous interactions with myself and others on this very forum, you are a liar and I am unwilling to believe whatever cherry picked evidence that you choose to put forward as a shield.
Like your statement,"
It's cheaper if oil companies can freely pollute. ". That appears correct, but your implication is that the cost of gasoline production has gone down because the oil companies are freely polluting and not that more sources of oil are being used to supply the demand.
"You drink from a camelback of lies" - Kill Team Kill
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 20, 2022, 05:52:44 AM
Like your statement,"It's cheaper if oil companies can freely pollute. ". That appears correct, but your implication is that the cost of gasoline production has gone down because the oil companies are freely polluting and not that more sources of oil are being used to supply the demand.
I agree, that's a really bizarre statement. Keystone being killed impacted supply, it had nothing to do with oil companies polluting.
Found another source, which is current as of this month, and is based on the CPI-U numbers, and adjusted for inflation (red is April 2022 dollars). There was a peak during stagflation in the late 1970s/early 1980s, followed by a long period of low prices. Then there was another peak in 2008 as the Great Recession kicked in, followed by a correction, and another even higher peak in 2012. During Obama's last term (2012 to 2016), prices dropped precipitously. During Trump's administration, prices spiked a bit, then dropped even lower, nearly reaching the record low of 1998. The spike this year is spectacular, especially since it's just the yearly average not today's price.
(https://inflationdata.com/articles/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Inflation-Adj-Gasoline-Prices-June-2022a.png)
https://inflationdata.com/articles/inflation-adjusted-prices/inflation-adjusted-gasoline-prices/
Of course, oil isn't the only problem/shortage Biden has caused. Fertilizer (and therefore food prices and even food itself) -- is now becoming a problem:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-13/us-quietly-urges-russia-fertilizer-deals-to-unlock-grain-trade
So Biden tells Putin he's evil, and that the U.S. is going to remove him from power, then begs him to sell us more fertilizer. Incredible. Much like he shat on Latin America by not inviting certain countries to a summit and pissed off the Saudis by trash-talking them and then begging them for oil. I don't like a lot of countries the U.S. trades with either, but there's this thing called "cutting your nose off to spite your face," and doing so demonstrates the sheerest sort of incompetence.
So let me see if I follow the jhkim part of this thread.
A graphic was posted showing inflation adjusted gas prices which implied Democrats Bad, Republicans Good.
jhkim questions it as it looks wonky because the numbers don't seem to be consistent with each other.
He's told to use a specific inflation calculator to see that it's correct.
He uses that inflation calculator that he's asked to use, and that very calculator verifies exactly what jhkim says. That the graphic was wonky and not accurate. No matter what base year you choose, there is no way to get that graphic because regardless of base year chosen the graphic doesn't seem to consistently follow.
Another chart is posted and people claim it shows a drop in oil prices when Trump took office.
jhkim points out the chart shows rather a drop in prices under Obama, and actually a rise in prices under Trump the first two years. As if people hadn't noticed the years at the bottom of that very chart.
Instead of addressing any of this - where jhkim is using the very inflation calculator and chart he's asked to use and shows conclusively the assertions made using those calculators and charts do not in fact prove the thing they were being used to prove, he's:
1) just blanket called a liar (no basis, no context, no connection to the discussion that just took place, just called a liar);
2) a new chart is thrown up, with no attempt to address the calculator and prior chart that had been posted and jhkim addressed. Just straight-up moving target tactic.
Do I have that right? Because damn, that's some really poor debating right there if I have that right.
Quote from: I on June 20, 2022, 11:55:15 AM
Of course, oil isn't the only problem/shortage Biden has caused. Fertilizer (and therefore food prices and even food itself) -- is now becoming a problem:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-13/us-quietly-urges-russia-fertilizer-deals-to-unlock-grain-trade
So Biden tells Putin he's evil, and that the U.S. is going to remove him from power, then begs him to sell us more fertilizer. Incredible. Much like he shat on Latin America by not inviting certain countries to a summit and pissed off the Saudis by trash-talking them and then begging them for oil. I don't like a lot of countries the U.S. trades with either, but there's this thing called "cutting your nose off to spite your face," and doing so demonstrates the sheerest sort of incompetence.
What's struck me more than anything, and this goes back to Trump as well, is how clueless bureaucrats are when it comes to the economy.
Pandemic? Let's shutdown businesses! We
will choose which jobs are essential!That's disastrous, because we have a highly interlinked global economy, with long supply chains. You can't just isolate a few key segments, and have them continue to function smoothly, because they're heavily dependent on a complex web of inputs. Apple, for instance, has 1,180 suppliers spread across 31 countries, for just one product (the iPhone). Even the threat of shutdowns can cause problems, because businesses have to make plans years in advance. That's why the market reacted to the permits and the pipeline.
Country bad? Embargo!Same basic problem. A heavily globalized economy means countries specialize in the areas where they have a competitive advantage, so this is equivalent to randomly shutting down businesses, which again has complex and hard to predict cascading effects down supply chains.
If they really want to continue in this vein, I can see two parallel global economies emerging. But that would require moving all that cheap manufacturing and production back. Not necessarily to the US, but to a country with strong political ties to the West. That'll take time (at least a decade), and because the West is mostly high-wage nations, it will massively increase prices. Which will cause too much political pain to be feasible, so what we'll end up with is a lot of production between funneled through a shadow market of intermediary countries, primarily in Asia and South America. It'll still be a global economy, just one with more steps between US-bloc countries and their enemies like Russia and (maybe one day) China.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 12:19:38 PM
So let me see if I follow the jhkim part of this thread.
A graphic was posted showing inflation adjusted gas prices which implied Democrats Bad, Republicans Good.
jhkim questions it as it looks wonky because the numbers don't seem to be consistent with each other.
He's told to use a specific inflation calculator to see that it's correct.
He uses that inflation calculator that he's asked to use, and that very calculator verifies exactly what jhkim says. That the graphic was wonky and not accurate. No matter what base year you choose, there is no way to get that graphic because regardless of base year chosen the graphic doesn't seem to consistently follow.
Another chart is posted and people claim it shows a drop in oil prices when Trump took office.
jhkim points out the chart shows rather a drop in prices under Obama, and actually a rise in prices under Trump the first two years. As if people hadn't noticed the years at the bottom of that very chart.
Instead of addressing any of this - where jhkim is using the very inflation calculator and chart he's asked to use and shows conclusively the assertions made using those calculators and charts do not in fact prove the thing they were being used to prove, he's:
1) just blanket called a liar (no basis, no context, no connection to the discussion that just took place, just called a liar);
2) a new chart is thrown up, with no attempt to address the calculator and prior chart that had been posted and jhkim addressed. Just straight-up moving target tactic.
Do I have that right? Because damn, that's some really poor debating right there if I have that right.
I threw up the new chart. It was my first post on the subject. I never addressed jkim's chart in any way, I only addressed a very blatant and specific falsehood.
And you're claiming I'm moving the target.
That's really poor debating on your part.
The reason I threw up the new chart is because I looked at both previous charts, and they seemed to be severely lacking. Kim's chart doesn't say whether it's inflation adjusted or not, and the links at the bottom of the page just link to current prices, not historical data. It might be buried somewhere in the US Energy's Administration's page, but the St. Louis Fed did a bad job of footnoting and sourcing.
DocJones' chart seems better, at least on the surface. It is inflated adjusted, and gives a year (2020). But it's a really weird and ugly chart, and hard to read.
So I provided an alternative, that's current, sourced, in a more familiar format, and covers a much wider historical range.
Edit: Incidentally, here are the references in the graph posted by DocJones:
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=50758
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/cpi_01122022.htm
Edit: Fixed second link.
There's something wrong with chart DocJones posted. It shows the inflation-adjusted price as being almost totally flat (the gray/blue), between 2002 and 2020, only spiking in 2021. It's averaged per year, so it should be close to the chart I posted, which is also averaged per year. But mine shows big spikes in 2008 and 2012. Kim's is weekly rather than yearly so it fluctuates more, but shows the same rough outline, with spikes in 2008 and 2012.
If you look DocJones' AlexWise chart, the yellow follows the same pattern as the other two charts. So it looks like the yellow at least approximates the inflation-adjusted curve. But it could also be the nominal price curve, because that's similar to the inflation-adjusted curve, just flatter. But the gray bars are still flat (with a minor peak in 2002, of all years), and can't be either. I don't know what it represents, and it doesn't seem worth the effort to suss out.
Quote from: Pat on June 20, 2022, 01:40:08 PM
There's something wrong with chart DocJones posted. It shows the inflation-adjusted price as being almost totally flat (the gray/blue), between 2002 and 2020, only spiking in 2021. It's averaged per year, so it should be close to the chart I posted, which is also averaged per year. But mine shows big spikes in 2008 and 2012. Kim's is weekly rather than yearly so it fluctuates more, but shows the same rough outline, with spikes in 2008 and 2012.
If you look DocJones' AlexWise chart, the yellow follows the same pattern as the other two charts. So it looks like the yellow at least approximates the inflation-adjusted curve. But it could also be the nominal price curve, because that's similar to the inflation-adjusted curve, just flatter. But the gray bars are still flat (with a minor peak in 2002, of all years), and can't be either. I don't know what it represents, and it doesn't seem worth the effort to suss out.
The graph I posted is not inflation-adjusted. So it'll be biased to be lower in the past overall, but should show the same year-to-year shape and my graph only went back to 2002.
In the Axlewise infographic, the blue is labelled as the inflation-adjusted prices which I agree don't make sense. In the other graph that DocJones linked to at usinflationcalculator.com, they explain their calculation as factoring in the CPI for gasoline rather than overall inflation. But as far as I can tell, that intentionally creates a flat line. The gas CPI is affected by gas prices, so taking gas prices and dividing by gas CPI gives roughly a flat number.
I would think "inflation-adjusted" should just be multiplying by the overall conversion of X year dollars to Y year dollars, rather than the gasoline-specific CPI. I think your graph is doing, Pat.
I'll comment more about causation in a separate post.
Quote from: jhkim on June 20, 2022, 02:37:18 PM
I would think "inflation-adjusted" should just be multiplying by the overall conversion of X year dollars to Y year dollars, rather than the gasoline-specific CPI. I think your graph is doing, Pat.
It's not. See the note at the bottom, it's using the CPI-U. That's the Consumer Price Index For All Urban Consumers, which covers 93% of the US population. So it's the most widely used index.
In general, the specific question of gasoline prices is what caused the fluctuations seen. Are gas prices changes primarily due to environmental policy like cancellation of the Keystone pipeline? Or are they caused more by other factors, with environmental policy being only a secondary influence?
Factually, there was a massive drop in gas prices during the last two years of the Obama presidency. This is referred to as the "fracking dip" in Pat's article. Prices then rose during Trump's first two years, then fluctuated down and then up again before plunging in early 2020, then rising slightly to a plateau in later 2020, then rising steadily over 2021 and then rising further in 2022.
It seems to me that the drop in 2014 was caused by the technology jump in hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling, as the article implies.
The next big price drop under Trump in spring 2020 wasn't caused by Trump's pro-drilling or pro-Keystone policy, but by the pandemic. Both the recession and the massive drop in fuel demand caused by telecommuting and reduction in tourism and business travel.
The question is, what caused the rise in prices after the pandemic drop? Among the influences would be:
1) Increased fuel use as commuting and travel go back to pre-pandemic levels
2) Biden's cancellation of the Keystone pipeline
3) Russia's invasion of Ukraine and economic sanctions against Russia
I'm not claiming that the Keystone cancellation had no effect, but the other causes seem at least as significant. There was no drop in gas prices in early 2017 when Trump became president, despite immediate action on the pipeline.
Quote from: Pat on June 20, 2022, 01:06:57 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 12:19:38 PM
So let me see if I follow the jhkim part of this thread.
A graphic was posted showing inflation adjusted gas prices which implied Democrats Bad, Republicans Good.
jhkim questions it as it looks wonky because the numbers don't seem to be consistent with each other.
He's told to use a specific inflation calculator to see that it's correct.
He uses that inflation calculator that he's asked to use, and that very calculator verifies exactly what jhkim says. That the graphic was wonky and not accurate. No matter what base year you choose, there is no way to get that graphic because regardless of base year chosen the graphic doesn't seem to consistently follow.
Another chart is posted and people claim it shows a drop in oil prices when Trump took office.
jhkim points out the chart shows rather a drop in prices under Obama, and actually a rise in prices under Trump the first two years. As if people hadn't noticed the years at the bottom of that very chart.
Instead of addressing any of this - where jhkim is using the very inflation calculator and chart he's asked to use and shows conclusively the assertions made using those calculators and charts do not in fact prove the thing they were being used to prove, he's:
1) just blanket called a liar (no basis, no context, no connection to the discussion that just took place, just called a liar);
2) a new chart is thrown up, with no attempt to address the calculator and prior chart that had been posted and jhkim addressed. Just straight-up moving target tactic.
Do I have that right? Because damn, that's some really poor debating right there if I have that right.
I threw up the new chart. It was my first post on the subject. I never addressed jkim's chart in any way, I only addressed a very blatant and specific falsehood.
And you're claiming I'm moving the target.
That's really poor debating on your part.
The reason I threw up the new chart is because I looked at both previous charts, and they seemed to be severely lacking. Kim's chart doesn't say whether it's inflation adjusted or not, and the links at the bottom of the page just link to current prices, not historical data. It might be buried somewhere in the US Energy's Administration's page, but the St. Louis Fed did a bad job of footnoting and sourcing.
DocJones' chart seems better, at least on the surface. It is inflated adjusted, and gives a year (2020). But it's a really weird and ugly chart, and hard to read.
So I provided an alternative, that's current, sourced, in a more familiar format, and covers a much wider historical range.
Edit: Incidentally, here are the references in the graph posted by DocJones:
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=50758
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/cpi_01122022.htm
Edit: Fixed second link.
OK that all makes sense. Thank you for the clarification.
Quote from: jhkim on June 20, 2022, 04:56:53 PM
1) Increased fuel use as commuting and travel go back to pre-pandemic levels
2) Biden's cancellation of the Keystone pipeline
3) Russia's invasion of Ukraine and economic sanctions against Russia
1) is garbage. Travel was starting to rise 15-18 months ago. Unless you can show there was a sudden surge in travel just before prices spiked, it's not directly related.
And the other two would be the factors we've already discussed, except you missed one: Biden also suspended the oil drilling leases in Alaska.
All three reasons are the direct result of Biden's actions.
Quote from: Pat on June 20, 2022, 06:36:44 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 20, 2022, 04:56:53 PM
1) Increased fuel use as commuting and travel go back to pre-pandemic levels
2) Biden's cancellation of the Keystone pipeline
3) Russia's invasion of Ukraine and economic sanctions against Russia
1) is garbage. Travel was starting to rise 15-18 months ago. Unless you can show there was a sudden surge in travel just before prices spiked, it's not directly related.
And the other two would be the factors we've already discussed, except you missed one: Biden also suspended the oil drilling leases in Alaska.
All three reasons are the direct result of Biden's actions.
There's also the fact that shit-for-brains campaigned on a platform of doing away with oil and gas. Why would any sane oil company CEO invest in trying to increase refinery capacity or exploration when regulation makes it nearly impossible to drill or build new refineries and when the administration's campaign promises are being taken at face value, which would result in them being left holding millions of gallons of unsellable fuel and refineries that would be idle?
Just like every other leftists pipedream, they fail to understand the practicalities associated with the nature of human behavior in the lens of game theory.
Quote from: 3catcircus on June 20, 2022, 08:02:45 PM
Quote from: Pat on June 20, 2022, 06:36:44 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 20, 2022, 04:56:53 PM
1) Increased fuel use as commuting and travel go back to pre-pandemic levels
2) Biden's cancellation of the Keystone pipeline
3) Russia's invasion of Ukraine and economic sanctions against Russia
1) is garbage. Travel was starting to rise 15-18 months ago. Unless you can show there was a sudden surge in travel just before prices spiked, it's not directly related.
And the other two would be the factors we've already discussed, except you missed one: Biden also suspended the oil drilling leases in Alaska.
All three reasons are the direct result of Biden's actions.
There's also the fact that shit-for-brains campaigned on a platform of doing away with oil and gas. Why would any sane oil company CEO invest in trying to increase refinery capacity or exploration when regulation makes it nearly impossible to drill or build new refineries and when the administration's campaign promises are being taken at face value, which would result in them being left holding millions of gallons of unsellable fuel and refineries that would be idle?
Just like every other leftists pipedream, they fail to understand the practicalities associated with the nature of human behavior in the lens of game theory.
Pete Buttigieg just threatened to force airlines to hire more employees, because of the recent disruptions. They're talking about "stress tests", as if the airlines were too big to fail banks.
It's insane. The government just forced the airlines to fire lots of their employees who weren't vaccinated. Now we have a shortage, and Perpetual Paternity Leave Pete's flight was canceled and he had to (shocked face) drive from Washington to NYC, so that means the government must interfere again! This is equivalent to someone hearing a story about a business, or having one bad experience, saying "they oughta...", and then the companies are forced to act on their uninformed, spur of the moment pronouncement. No business can operate in a regulatory (or executive) environment like that. They can't make any long term plans, around the constant meddling.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 12:19:38 PM
So let me see if I follow the jhkim part of this thread.
A graphic was posted showing inflation adjusted gas prices which implied Democrats Bad, Republicans Good.
jhkim questions it as it looks wonky because the numbers don't seem to be consistent with each other.
He's told to use a specific inflation calculator to see that it's correct.
He uses that inflation calculator that he's asked to use, and that very calculator verifies exactly what jhkim says. That the graphic was wonky and not accurate. No matter what base year you choose, there is no way to get that graphic because regardless of base year chosen the graphic doesn't seem to consistently follow.
Another chart is posted and people claim it shows a drop in oil prices when Trump took office.
jhkim points out the chart shows rather a drop in prices under Obama, and actually a rise in prices under Trump the first two years. As if people hadn't noticed the years at the bottom of that very chart.
Instead of addressing any of this - where jhkim is using the very inflation calculator and chart he's asked to use and shows conclusively the assertions made using those calculators and charts do not in fact prove the thing they were being used to prove, he's:
1) just blanket called a liar (no basis, no context, no connection to the discussion that just took place, just called a liar);
2) a new chart is thrown up, with no attempt to address the calculator and prior chart that had been posted and jhkim addressed. Just straight-up moving target tactic.
Do I have that right? Because damn, that's some really poor debating right there if I have that right.
Like jhkim, "You drink from a camelback of lies" - Kill Team Kill
Seriously, just save it for someone who will buy into your bullshit. A lot of the readers here just aren't believing either you or jhkim anymore.
Quote from: jhkim on June 20, 2022, 02:38:26 AM
The base year should just be a choice of what units to report in, though. The inflation-adjusted graph should be the same shape regardless of what base year one chooses. It's just that all the numbers would be adjusted by a fixed proportion. For example, according to usinflationcalculator, the conversion from 2020 dollars to 2021 dollars is 4.7%. So we should be able to convert from 2020 dollars to 2021 dollars by applying a factor of 1.047 on everything.
I can't apply a factor of x1.047 to the Axlewise graph to get the inflationcalculator graph. The Axlewise infographic has completely different *shape* from the usinflationcalculator graph.
No. The base numbers, the calculations, and the graph scales should be optimized to prove the point one is trying to make.
;-)
Quote from: jhkim on June 20, 2022, 04:56:53 PM
The question is, what caused the rise in prices after the pandemic drop? Among the influences would be:
1) Increased fuel use as commuting and travel go back to pre-pandemic levels
2) Biden's cancellation of the Keystone pipeline
3) Russia's invasion of Ukraine and economic sanctions against Russia
The Keystone XL cancellation can't be the cause of prices since it was never operational.
Oil prices had rose quite dramatically (29%) from October to December 2021. Before a Ukraine.
Oil is a commodity and the price of oil is what speculators believe it to be....
...which of course could be fears of all of the above and other factors.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 20, 2022, 09:06:34 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 12:19:38 PM
So let me see if I follow the jhkim part of this thread.
A graphic was posted showing inflation adjusted gas prices which implied Democrats Bad, Republicans Good.
jhkim questions it as it looks wonky because the numbers don't seem to be consistent with each other.
He's told to use a specific inflation calculator to see that it's correct.
He uses that inflation calculator that he's asked to use, and that very calculator verifies exactly what jhkim says. That the graphic was wonky and not accurate. No matter what base year you choose, there is no way to get that graphic because regardless of base year chosen the graphic doesn't seem to consistently follow.
Another chart is posted and people claim it shows a drop in oil prices when Trump took office.
jhkim points out the chart shows rather a drop in prices under Obama, and actually a rise in prices under Trump the first two years. As if people hadn't noticed the years at the bottom of that very chart.
Instead of addressing any of this - where jhkim is using the very inflation calculator and chart he's asked to use and shows conclusively the assertions made using those calculators and charts do not in fact prove the thing they were being used to prove, he's:
1) just blanket called a liar (no basis, no context, no connection to the discussion that just took place, just called a liar);
2) a new chart is thrown up, with no attempt to address the calculator and prior chart that had been posted and jhkim addressed. Just straight-up moving target tactic.
Do I have that right? Because damn, that's some really poor debating right there if I have that right.
Like jhkim, "You drink from a camelback of lies" - Kill Team Kill
Seriously, just save it for someone who will buy into your bullshit. A lot of the readers here just aren't believing either you or jhkim anymore.
Speak for yourself Jeff. Or are you trying to pull that leftie tactic of claiming to represent some mob of people who think and believe exactly like you so you feel free to speak on their behalf? Sorry buddy, we're all individuals here. Even you.
Quote from: DocJones on June 20, 2022, 09:42:25 PM
The Keystone XL cancellation can't be the cause of prices since it was never operational.
Oil prices had rose quite dramatically (29%) from October to December 2021. Before a Ukraine.
Oil is a commodity and the price of oil is what speculators believe it to be....
...which of course could be fears of all of the above and other factors.
The cancellation of a future project can absolutely affect prices. The market is a prediction engine, after all. Prices factor in the projected effects of future events.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 13, 2022, 07:47:48 PMBut then again this progressive non woke Democrat actualy knows some history...
Clearly you don't.
Go read up on the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis. Putin isn't Hitler. Putin is in the JFK role and in this bizarre, completely avoidable repeat of history.
Quote from: Spinachcat on June 21, 2022, 02:20:16 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 13, 2022, 07:47:48 PMBut then again this progressive non woke Democrat actualy knows some history...
Clearly you don't.
Go read up on the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis. Putin isn't Hitler. Putin is in the JFK role and in this bizarre, completely avoidable repeat of history.
How you managed to pack so much stupidity into less that 2 lines of rext is amazing.
Putin has been the agressor since he seized part of the region in 2018. All Ukraine did was defend itself. Meanwhile Putin is targeting civllian populations, shelters, escape routes, etc
You know what? Never mind. Anyone who could say what you did must have a minus sign infront of his IQ. Go plug your head back into fox news and inforwrars, after expending as much idiocy as you did in your post you must need a refill.
Honestly I'm surprised your brain can even keep your heart and lungs working...
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 09:58:10 PM
Speak for yourself Jeff. Or are you trying to pull that leftie tactic of claiming to represent some mob of people who think and believe exactly like you so you feel free to speak on their behalf? Sorry buddy, we're all individuals here. Even you.
I call them like I see them.
You are just butthurt that your liar ways have been exposed for all to see.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 21, 2022, 04:01:44 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on June 21, 2022, 02:20:16 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 13, 2022, 07:47:48 PMBut then again this progressive non woke Democrat actualy knows some history...
Clearly you don't.
Go read up on the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis. Putin isn't Hitler. Putin is in the JFK role and in this bizarre, completely avoidable repeat of history.
How you managed to pack so much stupidity into less that 2 lines of rext is amazing.
Putin has been the agressor since he seized part of the region in 2018. All Ukraine did was defend itself. Meanwhile Putin is targeting civllian populations, shelters, escape routes, etc
You know what? Never mind. Anyone who could say what you did must have a minus sign infront of his IQ. Go plug your head back into fox news and inforwrars, after expending as much idiocy as you did in your post you must need a refill.
Honestly I'm surprised your brain can even keep your heart and lungs working...
Russia took Crimea in 2014. Was there something that made that non-aggressive for 4 years that changed in 2018?
I am not certain, but isnt the bill on "helping" Ukraine around 54 billion since start of the year for the USA now? Isnt that more than Russia's annual military budget? Where is that money and gear going I wonder?
Quote from: oggsmash on June 21, 2022, 08:43:40 AM
I am not certain, but isnt the bill on "helping" Ukraine around 54 billion since start of the year for the USA now? Isnt that more than Russia's annual military budget? Where is that money and gear going I wonder?
Roughly yes, though that's mostly a commitment to future aid, not aid that has been sent. Congress passed a $40 billion dollar aid package in May which is the bulk of it, with majority support from both parties. About half of the May package is non-military aid, such as food assistance and health care, with the other half being military aid.
Russia's annual military budget was $66 billion in 2021, but they have increased spending by a lot since the start of the Ukraine war in 2022. I don't think there are reliable spending estimates at this point of their war spending. Active war spending is likely to be much more.
Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2022, 11:04:35 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 21, 2022, 08:43:40 AM
I am not certain, but isnt the bill on "helping" Ukraine around 54 billion since start of the year for the USA now? Isnt that more than Russia's annual military budget? Where is that money and gear going I wonder?
Roughly yes, though that's mostly a commitment to future aid, not aid that has been sent. Congress passed a $40 billion dollar aid package in May which is the bulk of it, with majority support from both parties. About half of the May package is non-military aid, such as food assistance and health care, with the other half being military aid.
Russia's annual military budget was $66 billion in 2021, but they have increased spending by a lot since the start of the Ukraine war in 2022. I don't think there are reliable spending estimates at this point of their war spending. Active war spending is likely to be much more.
So in other word mighty close to what their annual military budget has been. No accounting from the USA or Ukraine side as to where the money and gear is going...and an uptick on arms being sold on the black market. This is a shit show. The USA has put up 54 billion in half a year.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 21, 2022, 08:43:40 AM
I am not certain, but isnt the bill on "helping" Ukraine around 54 billion since start of the year for the USA now? Isnt that more than Russia's annual military budget? Where is that money and gear going I wonder?
Into someone's pockets.
My opinion and personal 'conspiracy theory' is that the intense excitement around Ukraine does not stem from any great humanitarian gesture. It stems from Beltway elites being pissed because their personal money-laundering shop is getting knocked over.
Quote from: Spinachcat on June 21, 2022, 02:20:16 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 13, 2022, 07:47:48 PMBut then again this progressive non woke Democrat actualy knows some history...
Clearly you don't.
Go read up on the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis. Putin isn't Hitler. Putin is in the JFK role and in this bizarre, completely avoidable repeat of history.
Oh good lord what the fuck has happened to your brain? They invaded a nation. They've killed civilians and kidnapped children into Russia. How the fuck can you compare any of this to JFK? The US nor Nato was putting any missiles in Ukraine. They were not even considering NATO membership any time in the near future.
Damn dude, you've gone far down the rabbit hole to have come to believe that bullshit.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 06:00:41 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 09:58:10 PM
Speak for yourself Jeff. Or are you trying to pull that leftie tactic of claiming to represent some mob of people who think and believe exactly like you so you feel free to speak on their behalf? Sorry buddy, we're all individuals here. Even you.
I call them like I see them.
You are just butthurt that your liar ways have been exposed for all to see.
You are free to call things as you see them, but not free to speak for how others see them. Stop naming yourself a leader when you lead only yourself.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 21, 2022, 11:08:44 AM
Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2022, 11:04:35 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 21, 2022, 08:43:40 AM
I am not certain, but isnt the bill on "helping" Ukraine around 54 billion since start of the year for the USA now? Isnt that more than Russia's annual military budget? Where is that money and gear going I wonder?
Roughly yes, though that's mostly a commitment to future aid, not aid that has been sent. Congress passed a $40 billion dollar aid package in May which is the bulk of it, with majority support from both parties. About half of the May package is non-military aid, such as food assistance and health care, with the other half being military aid.
Russia's annual military budget was $66 billion in 2021, but they have increased spending by a lot since the start of the Ukraine war in 2022. I don't think there are reliable spending estimates at this point of their war spending. Active war spending is likely to be much more.
So in other word mighty close to what their annual military budget has been. No accounting from the USA or Ukraine side as to where the money and gear is going...and an uptick on arms being sold on the black market. This is a shit show. The USA has put up 54 billion in half a year.
Comparing pre-war spending to war spending is really apples and oranges. As I said, I don't think estimates of Russian war spending are reliable - but to give an idea, the Moscow Times estimated Russian spending at $300M per day in the war, while Newsweek cited an outside estimate of $900M per day.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/18/russian-defense-spending-surges-to-300m-per-day-amid-ukraine-war-a77712
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-estimated-900-million-day-ukraine-war-1704383
While I don't doubt that there is plenty of cruft in the Ukraine aid package, at least it's going towards a known problem of the Russian war on Ukraine. What I find far more ridiculous is the U.S. spending $770 billion every year in *peacetime* on its military. The Ukraine military aid is a drop in the bucket compared to that.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 06:00:41 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 09:58:10 PM
Speak for yourself Jeff. Or are you trying to pull that leftie tactic of claiming to represent some mob of people who think and believe exactly like you so you feel free to speak on their behalf? Sorry buddy, we're all individuals here. Even you.
I call them like I see them.
You are just butthurt that your liar ways have been exposed for all to see.
You are free to call things as you see them, but not free to speak for how others see them. Stop naming yourself a leader when you lead only yourself.
You view me as a messianic threat to your online image which is as much a lie as you are. The readers know what you are.
Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2022, 12:11:49 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 21, 2022, 11:08:44 AM
Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2022, 11:04:35 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 21, 2022, 08:43:40 AM
I am not certain, but isnt the bill on "helping" Ukraine around 54 billion since start of the year for the USA now? Isnt that more than Russia's annual military budget? Where is that money and gear going I wonder?
Roughly yes, though that's mostly a commitment to future aid, not aid that has been sent. Congress passed a $40 billion dollar aid package in May which is the bulk of it, with majority support from both parties. About half of the May package is non-military aid, such as food assistance and health care, with the other half being military aid.
Russia's annual military budget was $66 billion in 2021, but they have increased spending by a lot since the start of the Ukraine war in 2022. I don't think there are reliable spending estimates at this point of their war spending. Active war spending is likely to be much more.
So in other word mighty close to what their annual military budget has been. No accounting from the USA or Ukraine side as to where the money and gear is going...and an uptick on arms being sold on the black market. This is a shit show. The USA has put up 54 billion in half a year.
Comparing pre-war spending to war spending is really apples and oranges. As I said, I don't think estimates of Russian war spending are reliable - but to give an idea, the Moscow Times estimated Russian spending at $300M per day in the war, while Newsweek cited an outside estimate of $900M per day.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/18/russian-defense-spending-surges-to-300m-per-day-amid-ukraine-war-a77712
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-estimated-900-million-day-ukraine-war-1704383
While I don't doubt that there is plenty of cruft in the Ukraine aid package, at least it's going towards a known problem of the Russian war on Ukraine. What I find far more ridiculous is the U.S. spending $770 billion every year in *peacetime* on its military. The Ukraine military aid is a drop in the bucket compared to that.
It is not more ridiculous, but I can agree with just as ridiculous. I think the US military budget should be 54 billion and we should give zero to Ukraine (and anyone else). Then we can approach sense.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 01:03:50 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 06:00:41 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 09:58:10 PM
Speak for yourself Jeff. Or are you trying to pull that leftie tactic of claiming to represent some mob of people who think and believe exactly like you so you feel free to speak on their behalf? Sorry buddy, we're all individuals here. Even you.
I call them like I see them.
You are just butthurt that your liar ways have been exposed for all to see.
You are free to call things as you see them, but not free to speak for how others see them. Stop naming yourself a leader when you lead only yourself.
You view me as a messianic threat to your online image which is as much a lie as you are. The readers know what you are.
No Jeff. Believe it or not I've seen your social media. I view you as an ordinary dude, just like me. I have no "online image" or at least none I particularly care about. And what's this "the readers" crap? We're all just guys posting to an internet message board about games and game related stuff. This isn't the fucking wall street journal. You and I have no "readers" in the sense you keep using that word.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 05:27:23 PM
No Jeff. Believe it or not I've seen your social media. I view you as an ordinary dude, just like me. I have no "online image" or at least none I particularly care about. And what's this "the readers" crap? We're all just guys posting to an internet message board about games and game related stuff. This isn't the fucking wall street journal. You and I have no "readers" in the sense you keep using that word.
Bolding mine because stalkerish behavior is creepy as fuck.
What's next, you gonna dox me?
See, you try to come off as rational but you are willing to search out and look into my social media? That's only rational to a crackhead.
EDIT: You'd think you would have been smart enough to not threaten my SO, but like a true social justice wanker you have no bounds.
If he threatened your husband you should report it to pundit and get him banned, dumb quixote. If you can't convince pundit he threatened anyone close to you try reporting him to the FBI.
Talking about Russia's military spending is not easy. The ''Russian federation'' inherited a huge military from the soviet union. A lot of it is still useful despite poor maintenance .
Also the Russian ecomony is still under Putin's control, he sets wages, prices, etc. Plus let's not forget slave labor, and the fact the russian army is basically a slave labor force.
Best estimates place the total Russian GDP at just below New York state's. That was before the war abd sanctions. Exact estimates are imposible due to the fact the Russian economy is a blatant kleptocracy and no one knows how much is simply stolen by oligarchs and exists in the russissn economy only as 'cooked book' entries.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 11:45:38 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 21, 2022, 11:44:04 PM
fap fap fap
OK, groomer.
You calling me a pedo you motherfucking pjece of shit? Even pundit doesn't pull that level of shitlording. I hope you fuck up and call someone that IRL and they stomp your mouth to a pulp you pussy.
Is calling people pedos just the new shitlord default response?
I can't wait till one does it in real life and gets his mouth smashed.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 05:27:23 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 01:03:50 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 06:00:41 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 09:58:10 PM
Speak for yourself Jeff. Or are you trying to pull that leftie tactic of claiming to represent some mob of people who think and believe exactly like you so you feel free to speak on their behalf? Sorry buddy, we're all individuals here. Even you.
I call them like I see them.
You are just butthurt that your liar ways have been exposed for all to see.
You are free to call things as you see them, but not free to speak for how others see them. Stop naming yourself a leader when you lead only yourself.
You view me as a messianic threat to your online image which is as much a lie as you are. The readers know what you are.
No Jeff. Believe it or not I've seen your social media. I view you as an ordinary dude, just like me. I have no "online image" or at least none I particularly care about. And what's this "the readers" crap? We're all just guys posting to an internet message board about games and game related stuff. This isn't the fucking wall street journal. You and I have no "readers" in the sense you keep using that word.
Hey mistwell, where js jeffs 'online prescence'? Motherfucker just called me a pedo, I might want to see what kind of shit he pulls on his so called 'social media ''.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 11:08:43 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 05:27:23 PM
No Jeff. Believe it or not I've seen your social media. I view you as an ordinary dude, just like me. I have no "online image" or at least none I particularly care about. And what's this "the readers" crap? We're all just guys posting to an internet message board about games and game related stuff. This isn't the fucking wall street journal. You and I have no "readers" in the sense you keep using that word.
Bolding mine because stalkerish behavior is creepy as fuck.
What's next, you gonna dox me?
See, you try to come off as rational but you are willing to search out and look into my social media? That's only rational to a crackhead.
EDIT: You'd think you would have been smart enough to not threaten my SO, but like a true social justice wanker you have no bounds.
Of course I'm not going to dox you. But we both know why it's not stalkerish (unless you forgot, which is possible). Which is kind of funny I guess. And what's this about your SO?
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 22, 2022, 12:23:58 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 05:27:23 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 01:03:50 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 06:00:41 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 09:58:10 PM
Speak for yourself Jeff. Or are you trying to pull that leftie tactic of claiming to represent some mob of people who think and believe exactly like you so you feel free to speak on their behalf? Sorry buddy, we're all individuals here. Even you.
I call them like I see them.
You are just butthurt that your liar ways have been exposed for all to see.
You are free to call things as you see them, but not free to speak for how others see them. Stop naming yourself a leader when you lead only yourself.
You view me as a messianic threat to your online image which is as much a lie as you are. The readers know what you are.
No Jeff. Believe it or not I've seen your social media. I view you as an ordinary dude, just like me. I have no "online image" or at least none I particularly care about. And what's this "the readers" crap? We're all just guys posting to an internet message board about games and game related stuff. This isn't the fucking wall street journal. You and I have no "readers" in the sense you keep using that word.
Hey mistwell, where js jeffs 'online prescence'? Motherfucker just called me a pedo, I might want to see what kind of shit he pulls on his so called 'social media ''.
That's not going to happen man. Leave me out of it.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 22, 2022, 12:48:26 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 11:08:43 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 05:27:23 PM
No Jeff. Believe it or not I've seen your social media. I view you as an ordinary dude, just like me. I have no "online image" or at least none I particularly care about. And what's this "the readers" crap? We're all just guys posting to an internet message board about games and game related stuff. This isn't the fucking wall street journal. You and I have no "readers" in the sense you keep using that word.
Bolding mine because stalkerish behavior is creepy as fuck.
What's next, you gonna dox me?
See, you try to come off as rational but you are willing to search out and look into my social media? That's only rational to a crackhead.
EDIT: You'd think you would have been smart enough to not threaten my SO, but like a true social justice wanker you have no bounds.
Of course I'm not going to dox you. But we both know why it's not stalkerish (unless you forgot, which is possible). Which is kind of funny I guess. And what's this about your SO?
Nope. You are stalking me.
You need to stop doing that, creeper.
And you remember threatening my SO. You even apologized about it, claiming that it wasn't your intent.
Amazingly creepy.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 22, 2022, 12:23:58 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 05:27:23 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 01:03:50 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 21, 2022, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 21, 2022, 06:00:41 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 20, 2022, 09:58:10 PM
Speak for yourself Jeff. Or are you trying to pull that leftie tactic of claiming to represent some mob of people who think and believe exactly like you so you feel free to speak on their behalf? Sorry buddy, we're all individuals here. Even you.
I call them like I see them.
You are just butthurt that your liar ways have been exposed for all to see.
You are free to call things as you see them, but not free to speak for how others see them. Stop naming yourself a leader when you lead only yourself.
You view me as a messianic threat to your online image which is as much a lie as you are. The readers know what you are.
No Jeff. Believe it or not I've seen your social media. I view you as an ordinary dude, just like me. I have no "online image" or at least none I particularly care about. And what's this "the readers" crap? We're all just guys posting to an internet message board about games and game related stuff. This isn't the fucking wall street journal. You and I have no "readers" in the sense you keep using that word.
Hey mistwell, where js jeffs 'online prescence'? Motherfucker just called me a pedo, I might want to see what kind of shit he pulls on his so called 'social media ''.
I'll give you a hint: golf.
Happy hunting, groomer!
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 22, 2022, 12:04:23 AM
Is calling people pedos just the new shitlord default response?
I don't think it's all that new.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 22, 2022, 06:27:18 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 22, 2022, 12:04:23 AM
Is calling people pedos just the new shitlord default response?
I don't think it's all that new.
The fact that he refers to Jeff as a "shitlord" tells me what kind of leftist he is. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that when he isn't wallowing in his mom's basement or actively grooming, he's in an antifa drum circle in front of a SCOTUS house or vandalizing a pro-life medical clinic...
Quote from: 3catcircus on June 22, 2022, 12:11:59 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 22, 2022, 06:27:18 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 22, 2022, 12:04:23 AM
Is calling people pedos just the new shitlord default response?
I don't think it's all that new.
The fact that he refers to Jeff as a "shitlord" tells me what kind of leftist he is. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that when he isn't wallowing in his mom's basement or actively grooming, he's in an antifa drum circle in front of a SCOTUS house or vandalizing a pro-life medical clinic...
Don't be an idiot. He's likely not all that different from anyone else no matter how you want to exaggerate the most minor of differences.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 22, 2022, 12:55:01 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on June 22, 2022, 12:11:59 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 22, 2022, 06:27:18 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 22, 2022, 12:04:23 AM
Is calling people pedos just the new shitlord default response?
I don't think it's all that new.
The fact that he refers to Jeff as a "shitlord" tells me what kind of leftist he is. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that when he isn't wallowing in his mom's basement or actively grooming, he's in an antifa drum circle in front of a SCOTUS house or vandalizing a pro-life medical clinic...
Don't be an idiot. He's likely not all that different from anyone else no matter how you want to exaggerate the most minor of differences.
I just find it entertaining seeing the level of projection from leftists - and his level of projection is right up there with Alden Bunag.
Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2022, 12:11:49 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 21, 2022, 11:08:44 AM
Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2022, 11:04:35 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 21, 2022, 08:43:40 AM
I am not certain, but isnt the bill on "helping" Ukraine around 54 billion since start of the year for the USA now? Isnt that more than Russia's annual military budget? Where is that money and gear going I wonder?
Roughly yes, though that's mostly a commitment to future aid, not aid that has been sent. Congress passed a $40 billion dollar aid package in May which is the bulk of it, with majority support from both parties. About half of the May package is non-military aid, such as food assistance and health care, with the other half being military aid.
Russia's annual military budget was $66 billion in 2021, but they have increased spending by a lot since the start of the Ukraine war in 2022. I don't think there are reliable spending estimates at this point of their war spending. Active war spending is likely to be much more.
So in other word mighty close to what their annual military budget has been. No accounting from the USA or Ukraine side as to where the money and gear is going...and an uptick on arms being sold on the black market. This is a shit show. The USA has put up 54 billion in half a year.
Comparing pre-war spending to war spending is really apples and oranges. As I said, I don't think estimates of Russian war spending are reliable - but to give an idea, the Moscow Times estimated Russian spending at $300M per day in the war, while Newsweek cited an outside estimate of $900M per day.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/18/russian-defense-spending-surges-to-300m-per-day-amid-ukraine-war-a77712
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-estimated-900-million-day-ukraine-war-1704383
While I don't doubt that there is plenty of cruft in the Ukraine aid package, at least it's going towards a known problem of the Russian war on Ukraine. What I find far more ridiculous is the U.S. spending $770 billion every year in *peacetime* on its military. The Ukraine military aid is a drop in the bucket compared to that.
Firstly, those are interesting numbers to know. Thanks for the info. That said, I actually now kind of have to question whether when half of the money is being spent on aid and the like (not saying such things are not needed) and Russia may be burning through that other half in a month if the higher estimate is true, if this will genuinely be enough to solve the problem or even make a noticeable impact long term. It seems to me that (since I do agree with you on the fact that the funds are going towards a known problem on the global stage) maybe we should be diverting more of our current military spending to being available for similar operations, and since we didn't plan for that ahead of time, sending more now if we really wish to succeed, (my preference) or nothing. But not a false gesture of sympathy made only for political purposes when we don't actually intend to follow through.
As for military spending, we also spend a lot on healthcare and entitlement systems that could and perhaps should be reformed. That said, while I agree we need to downsize national spending, and probably reform our military spending as well, I also acknowledge that one of the government's first and foremost obligations is to the security of our nation and its citizens. As well as, if I am to add in some political realism here, the US's place within the world and positioning in international affairs. Add in a small dose of cosmopolitanism, because I doubt most would want to assume the value of non-citizens to be quite so literally zero, and it becomes clear we need a force adequate to fend off the hostile geopolitical actions of authoritarianism and other things that are not to our interests and overtly screw over the world we are positioned within. Looking at military spending, including veteran benefits and the like which I think help us maintain such a solid force, we are head and shoulders above many other nations immediately behind us combined. Perhaps we shouldn't spend quite that much, I would agree. But look to things like our refusal to help out Ukraine due in part to military concerns and the fact that analysts are unsure an undistracted USA could protect Taiwan and prevent vicious Chinese expansion if it came down to it... and I don't things are quite so clear cut as you and I would like. IF we are to reduce spending significantly, we will need to both temper that reduction, and acquire alliances that more than pull their own weight, moreso than they do now, and as I think most of our diplomats would say, that's not as easy as it sounds.
The sane reason not to help the Ukraine except for hopes and prayers is because 1) there is no compelling US interest, 2) US interventionism has a really bad history, and 3) Russia has a legitimate strategic interest.
Withdraw from NATO, and let Europe play with Russia, if they care. They're rich enough. It's about time they spent some of that money on defense.
Yeah, people just let Hitler have Austria, then Belgium, the sudaten, bohemia, lithunia, etc.
Worked out great, didn't it?
Quote from: Pat on June 24, 2022, 11:25:45 PM
The sane reason not to help the Ukraine except for hopes and prayers is because 1) there is no compelling US interest, 2) US interventionism has a really bad history, and 3) Russia has a legitimate strategic interest.
Withdraw from NATO, and let Europe play with Russia, if they care. They're rich enough. It's about time they spent some of that money on defense.
Look at your first and third points. If your third point is true then your first point is false, as opposing the strategic interests of its enemies (i.e., Russia) is in the strategic interests of the USA.
As for point two, isolationism has a terrible history of its own.
Quote from: KindaMeh on June 24, 2022, 11:12:15 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2022, 12:11:49 PM
I don't think estimates of Russian war spending are reliable - but to give an idea, the Moscow Times estimated Russian spending at $300M per day in the war, while Newsweek cited an outside estimate of $900M per day.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/18/russian-defense-spending-surges-to-300m-per-day-amid-ukraine-war-a77712
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-estimated-900-million-day-ukraine-war-1704383
While I don't doubt that there is plenty of cruft in the Ukraine aid package, at least it's going towards a known problem of the Russian war on Ukraine. What I find far more ridiculous is the U.S. spending $770 billion every year in *peacetime* on its military.
Perhaps we shouldn't spend quite that much, I would agree. But look to things like our refusal to help out Ukraine due in part to military concerns and the fact that analysts are unsure an undistracted USA could protect Taiwan and prevent vicious Chinese expansion if it came down to it... and I don't things are quite so clear cut as you and I would like. IF we are to reduce spending significantly, we will need to both temper that reduction, and acquire alliances that more than pull their own weight, moreso than they do now, and as I think most of our diplomats would say, that's not as easy as it sounds.
Hi, KindaMeh. You're new here - and this has been discussed before.
Briefly, my position is that all countries should militarily cooperate to prevent and/or punish wars of conquest. I believe it's vital to make wars of conquest non-profitable, because if attempted conquerors get rich from plundering countries, it encourages more conquest. We've had a relatively good run since WWII of reduced wars, and I think that's largely thanks to the lessons of WWII that countries have cooperated globally to oppose wars of aggression.
I have been opposed to the vast majority of U.S. military actions, but my three exceptions are WWII, the Korean War and the Kuwait War. There, hostilities were started by one-sided military conquest, and we worked with allies to oppose the aggressors. For similar reasons, I support Ukraine against Russia. I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not justified by legitimate security concerns - it is a one-sided war of conquest.
However, in our other interventions, the fighting was most often started by us -- invading another country to conquer it or install a government to our liking. Our policy of permanently placing U.S. troops and warships all over the globe supports the latter far more than the former. We should have a standing army sufficient to defend our own borders, but that's far less than what we have - especially given that we're a nuclear superpower.
Quote from: jhkim on June 25, 2022, 02:40:29 AM
Quote from: KindaMeh on June 24, 2022, 11:12:15 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2022, 12:11:49 PM
I don't think estimates of Russian war spending are reliable - but to give an idea, the Moscow Times estimated Russian spending at $300M per day in the war, while Newsweek cited an outside estimate of $900M per day.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/18/russian-defense-spending-surges-to-300m-per-day-amid-ukraine-war-a77712
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-estimated-900-million-day-ukraine-war-1704383
While I don't doubt that there is plenty of cruft in the Ukraine aid package, at least it's going towards a known problem of the Russian war on Ukraine. What I find far more ridiculous is the U.S. spending $770 billion every year in *peacetime* on its military.
Perhaps we shouldn't spend quite that much, I would agree. But look to things like our refusal to help out Ukraine due in part to military concerns and the fact that analysts are unsure an undistracted USA could protect Taiwan and prevent vicious Chinese expansion if it came down to it... and I don't things are quite so clear cut as you and I would like. IF we are to reduce spending significantly, we will need to both temper that reduction, and acquire alliances that more than pull their own weight, moreso than they do now, and as I think most of our diplomats would say, that's not as easy as it sounds.
Hi, KindaMeh. You're new here - and this has been discussed before.
Briefly, my position is that all countries should militarily cooperate to prevent and/or punish wars of conquest. I believe it's vital to make wars of conquest non-profitable, because if attempted conquerors get rich from plundering countries, it encourages more conquest. We've had a relatively good run since WWII of reduced wars, and I think that's largely thanks to the lessons of WWII that countries have cooperated globally to oppose wars of aggression.
I have been opposed to the vast majority of U.S. military actions, but my three exceptions are WWII, the Korean War and the Kuwait War. There, hostilities were started by one-sided military conquest, and we worked with allies to oppose the aggressors. For similar reasons, I support Ukraine against Russia. I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not justified by legitimate security concerns - it is a one-sided war of conquest.
However, in our other interventions, the fighting was most often started by us -- invading another country to conquer it or install a government to our liking. Our policy of permanently placing U.S. troops and warships all over the globe supports the latter far more than the former. We should have a standing army sufficient to defend our own borders, but that's far less than what we have - especially given that we're a nuclear superpower.
If this was recently in this thread then I apologize, I also may have inferred more from your words than perhaps I should have on your position.
So, I still stand by my earliest unquoted (presumably due to having less relevance to what you posted, not an attack) argument that the amount we're sending probably isn't enough by itself. Also, I know you didn't say otherwise, but I personally think maybe we should have acted sooner. Or Biden shouldn't have outright told Putin no troops would be deployed in the case of Ukraine itself being invaded, because why give away your hand, and if your opinion on intervention in the case of an instance like this were to be followed, shouldn't we defend them as a group of nations ex:NATO.
Regarding your overall theory and motivations, I respectfully disagree to some degree that intervention is only warranted in cases of nation on nation violence. Ex: France helped us gain rights like representation and all our Constitutional rights by seceding from England. And if the citizens of a nation are genuinely oppressed by their government and beg for help, I feel we may at least have a moral duty to assist given the right circumstances. It's a reach, but maybe if we intervened in Syria before the jihadists co-opted the revolution things might have been at least a bit less terrible. Also, as examples of "conquest" that ultimately did not hurt the world or the conquered from my perspective in the long run, see WW2 where we sort of ran for a while Japan and Germany but legit helped out them and the world by rebuilding. Even terrible ideas with iffy execution, like the invasion of Iraq, arguably gave some semblance of rights, democracy and the like for the people there after. And I think that's in part because they weren't traditional wars for conquest and directly taking a nation's land and resources. Then doves demanded a sketchily conceived withdrawal from Afghanistan, showing they didn't have a monopoly on getting to call out bad decisions. Heck, we provided no real help or structure in the wake of the collapse of Libya, which might have happened without our help and seemed to me like our duty to assist in the recovery from if we helped cause it at all. IDK, I don't support unjust wars or wars of literal conquest, but I don't know if that necessarily means all governments deserve to survive indefinitely at the expense of their people, or that at some point an active intervention couldn't ever be warranted involving force. Also, if legitimate strategic defense interest could excuse Russia's invasion from the perspective of us interfering (which I don't think it would, but you did mention that in whether intervention was justified), I feel that sets a very bad precedent in realpolitik I wouldn't condone or want. But also one that would excuse the US acting in its own preventative interests.
As for our current military efficacy, that's kinda what I meant to highlight the weaknesses of within the quote you used. We didn't have the force to stop with the Allie's that could actually be mustered both Ukraine and Taiwan if they had made us choose, which they kinda did. This is an example of the potential inability of us and our regional allies to save Taiwan with China's current unexpanded military if they commit, from an admittedly biased source: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/05/31/asia/china-taiwan-invasion-scenarios-analysis-intl-hnk-ml/index.html . So our current "overbloated military" while it is perhaps overfunded, is arguably not enough to do the interventions with allies I think I understand you to have said we should do when a democracy (or any other state, so I guess that might also mean terrible oppressive ones) is invaded for conquest. So I feel like I'm still making a legit point in that quote even with your stated position.
That said, I acknowledge we will likely still have our differences in opinion. And your stance, while not my own, is still I feel principled in its own way and I can respect that. I'm just speaking my bit now that you've outlined your stance.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 25, 2022, 12:57:46 AM
Quote from: Pat on June 24, 2022, 11:25:45 PM
The sane reason not to help the Ukraine except for hopes and prayers is because 1) there is no compelling US interest, 2) US interventionism has a really bad history, and 3) Russia has a legitimate strategic interest.
Withdraw from NATO, and let Europe play with Russia, if they care. They're rich enough. It's about time they spent some of that money on defense.
Look at your first and third points. If your third point is true then your first point is false, as opposing the strategic interests of its enemies (i.e., Russia) is in the strategic interests of the USA.
As for point two, isolationism has a terrible history of its own.
Not wanting to get involved in every war across the world is isolationist? That's roughly equivalent to calling someone "peaceful" because they don't punch every single person they meet.
Russia is a weak regional power, and they're concerned about enemies on their immediate border. The US is the sole world power, is half the world away, and has no concerns about the security of its border, except for the occasional caravan of poor people. They're not even vaguely equivalent.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 24, 2022, 11:50:04 PM
Yeah, people just let Hitler have Austria, then Belgium, the sudaten, bohemia, lithunia, etc.
Worked out great, didn't it?
You think the Russian economy and military is equivalent to Germany in the 1930s? That's laughable. Do you think this war has proved the Russian military is capable of rolling over eastern Europe in a blitzkrieg? That's... lmfao territory. And where was all the concern when Russia invaded Croatia? It's funny how this war has become the righteous war for all the ideopathic paladins, but nobody cared a few years ago. Plus, this war could have been stopped before it started with a couple security guarantees, like no Ukraine in NATO. It could probably be ended right now, with a face-saving concession of some kind for Putin. But that assumes the people who are all charged up about sending the sons (and a few daughters) of their neighbors to war want to stop the conflict, and not promote their egos.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 25, 2022, 12:57:46 AM
Quote from: Pat on June 24, 2022, 11:25:45 PM
The sane reason not to help the Ukraine except for hopes and prayers is because 1) there is no compelling US interest, 2) US interventionism has a really bad history, and 3) Russia has a legitimate strategic interest.
Withdraw from NATO, and let Europe play with Russia, if they care. They're rich enough. It's about time they spent some of that money on defense.
Look at your first and third points. If your third point is true then your first point is false, as opposing the strategic interests of its enemies (i.e., Russia) is in the strategic interests of the USA.
As for point two, isolationism has a terrible history of its own.
"Its enemies, i.e. Russia." I deny your premise that Russia is an enemy, or at least wasn't until we provoked them. They haven't done a damn thing to us since the USSR fell, while we've continually antagonized them and invaded their allies Serbia and Syria with no provocation towards us whatsoever. They were falsely blamed for installing a puppet U.S. president in 2016, while it's actually the U.S. who has installed a puppet president in Ukraine. (I hope you've heard the conversation where Victoria Nuland is literally discussing who the U.S. is going to install as Ukraine's president).
It's in the strategic interests of the U.S. to (1) be energy-independent, (2) manufacture its own stuff, and (3) guard its own borders. None of those three things are important to Democrats; in fact, they are opposed to them.
Quote from: I on June 25, 2022, 01:00:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 25, 2022, 12:57:46 AM
Quote from: Pat on June 24, 2022, 11:25:45 PM
The sane reason not to help the Ukraine except for hopes and prayers is because 1) there is no compelling US interest, 2) US interventionism has a really bad history, and 3) Russia has a legitimate strategic interest.
Withdraw from NATO, and let Europe play with Russia, if they care. They're rich enough. It's about time they spent some of that money on defense.
Look at your first and third points. If your third point is true then your first point is false, as opposing the strategic interests of its enemies (i.e., Russia) is in the strategic interests of the USA.
As for point two, isolationism has a terrible history of its own.
"Its enemies, i.e. Russia." I deny your premise that Russia is an enemy, or at least wasn't until we provoked them. They haven't done a damn thing to us since the USSR fell, while we've continually antagonized them and invaded their allies Serbia and Syria with no provocation towards us whatsoever. They were falsely blamed for installing a puppet U.S. president in 2016, while it's actually the U.S. who has installed a puppet president in Ukraine. (I hope you've heard the conversation where Victoria Nuland is literally discussing who the U.S. is going to install as Ukraine's president).
It's in the strategic interests of the U.S. to (1) be energy-independent, (2) manufacture its own stuff, and (3) guard its own borders. None of those three things are important to Democrats; in fact, they are opposed to them.
Got news for you. I'm a Democrat and I support the three points you made and I bolded.
The thing is that Republicans are against all 3. They don't want energy independence, they want oil oligarchs to make as much profit as possible, fuck tge effect is has on America. They don't want domestic manufacturing, they want Chinese slave labor made stuff. They want illegal workers to bust unions and drive down wages.
I mean now we should be building domestic micro chip factories to keep our essential industry and military supplied under all conditions, but NNNOOOOOOO! corporate profits come before national security or anything else to Republicans...
Quote from: jhkim on June 25, 2022, 02:40:29 AM
Hi, KindaMeh. You're new here - and this has been discussed before.
What the fuck is this supposed to mean, Mr. Kim?
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 25, 2022, 03:38:09 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 25, 2022, 02:40:29 AM
Hi, KindaMeh. You're new here - and this has been discussed before.
What the fuck is this supposed to mean, Mr. Kim?
I eventually took it to mean that I was misreading his stances a little on account of being new and not having heard prior arguments he was in. An opener for describing his opinion and worldview more accurately. TBF, I did kinda have a different understanding of his stance prior to that, and it did allow me to craft a more specific reply. Appreciate the backup and clarification, tho, cuz at first I kinda almost flew off the handle at this a little bit as a perceived slight. It was late and I was low-key sick which didn't help my mood or reasoning, but yeah.
Quote from: KindaMeh on June 25, 2022, 03:49:03 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 25, 2022, 03:38:09 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 25, 2022, 02:40:29 AM
Hi, KindaMeh. You're new here - and this has been discussed before.
What the fuck is this supposed to mean, Mr. Kim?
I eventually took it to mean that I was misreading his stances a little on account of being new and not having heard prior arguments he was in. An opener for describing his opinion and worldview more accurately. TBF, I did kinda have a different understanding of his stance prior to that, and it did allow me to craft a more specific reply. Appreciate the backup and clarification, tho, cuz at first I kinda almost flew off the handle at this a little bit as a perceived slight. It was late and I was low-key sick which didn't help my mood or reasoning, but yeah.
Sorry if there was any perceived slight. I just meant that you (KindaMeh) hadn't read previous discussions on this topic, so I tried to summarize some of what was previously discussed from my perspective. KindaMeh just joined in June, while this thread started back in February and is over 800 posts long.
Quote from: jhkim on June 25, 2022, 05:12:49 PM
Quote from: KindaMeh on June 25, 2022, 03:49:03 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 25, 2022, 03:38:09 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 25, 2022, 02:40:29 AM
Hi, KindaMeh. You're new here - and this has been discussed before.
What the fuck is this supposed to mean, Mr. Kim?
I eventually took it to mean that I was misreading his stances a little on account of being new and not having heard prior arguments he was in. An opener for describing his opinion and worldview more accurately. TBF, I did kinda have a different understanding of his stance prior to that, and it did allow me to craft a more specific reply. Appreciate the backup and clarification, tho, cuz at first I kinda almost flew off the handle at this a little bit as a perceived slight. It was late and I was low-key sick which didn't help my mood or reasoning, but yeah.
Sorry if there was any perceived slight. I just meant that you (KindaMeh) hadn't read previous discussions on this topic, so I tried to summarize some of what was previously discussed from my perspective. KindaMeh just joined in June, while this thread started back in February and is over 800 posts long.
Yeah, that's fair. Heck, I've been on here less than a week, and I didn't even come close to reading the whole thread, just enough stuff near the end where I thought I had basic context. No need for you to apologize for my having a brief misinterpretation, was my own fault, and I got over it.
Whatever antagonist USA has with Russia, Russia has always had a history of conquest and seizure. During the USSR and before it.
Whatever Ukraines Puppet leadership is, it ignores that there are people there that don't want to live under a nation that sees something as basic as their language as 'illegitimate' and has been absolutely willing to commit genocide on the population before.
I hate talks that deny that Ukrainians lack any sort of personal will or personal belief. While the USA is absolutely a player in the politics, its immensly egotistical and self-centered to assume its the only one.
Greetings!
Countries can often be used just like a Chess Board's Pawn by the real masters. Smaller, weaker countries historically are manipulated by their larger and more powerful patron masters--I mean allies--either subtly, or brazenly. Everything that the vassal nation does or tries to do is seen by the opposing master as a move being made by their current master to gain some kind of advantage.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 25, 2022, 01:21:27 PM
Quote from: I on June 25, 2022, 01:00:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 25, 2022, 12:57:46 AM
Quote from: Pat on June 24, 2022, 11:25:45 PM
The sane reason not to help the Ukraine except for hopes and prayers is because 1) there is no compelling US interest, 2) US interventionism has a really bad history, and 3) Russia has a legitimate strategic interest.
Withdraw from NATO, and let Europe play with Russia, if they care. They're rich enough. It's about time they spent some of that money on defense.
Look at your first and third points. If your third point is true then your first point is false, as opposing the strategic interests of its enemies (i.e., Russia) is in the strategic interests of the USA.
As for point two, isolationism has a terrible history of its own.
"Its enemies, i.e. Russia." I deny your premise that Russia is an enemy, or at least wasn't until we provoked them. They haven't done a damn thing to us since the USSR fell, while we've continually antagonized them and invaded their allies Serbia and Syria with no provocation towards us whatsoever. They were falsely blamed for installing a puppet U.S. president in 2016, while it's actually the U.S. who has installed a puppet president in Ukraine. (I hope you've heard the conversation where Victoria Nuland is literally discussing who the U.S. is going to install as Ukraine's president).
It's in the strategic interests of the U.S. to (1) be energy-independent, (2) manufacture its own stuff, and (3) guard its own borders. None of those three things are important to Democrats; in fact, they are opposed to them.
Got news for you. I'm a Democrat and I support the three points you made and I bolded.
The thing is that Republicans are against all 3. They don't want energy independence, they want oil oligarchs to make as much profit as possible, fuck tge effect is has on America. They don't want domestic manufacturing, they want Chinese slave labor made stuff. They want illegal workers to bust unions and drive down wages.
I mean now we should be building domestic micro chip factories to keep our essential industry and military supplied under all conditions, but NNNOOOOOOO! corporate profits come before national security or anything else to Republicans...
Then we agree on the destination, just disagree on the path to it. You are correct that some Republicans, probably a majority, want that stuff too, but so do all Democrats. (Bernie Sanders used to be against it, but now he agrees 100% with his "good friends" Biden, Schumer, etc. so the Democrats basically have no one in Congress that agrees with you). At least nowdays there are Republicans like Trump, Rand Paul and a few others. And Pat Buchanan was always for this, even when he ran for president in the 1990s. And even a lot of what I call Neocons want more border security and more domestic oil drilling, so even they are better than Democrats in that regard.
Now, I've named a few Republicans who agree with me. Can you name ANY Democratic politician who wants to regulate illegal immigration? (And don't give the name of somebody who wants "border reform," we know that's code for open borders). Can you name ANY Democratic politician who wants to increase domestic oil production? Because all I see is Biden making the rounds of foreign nations with his hat in his hand, begging for oil. As for Chinese trade, give me a break -- NO Democrat wants to even slow down trade with China, they were horrified that Trump called them out on their unfair trade practices. Woke companies like Disney and woke institutions like Hollywood -- big Democrat donors -- will involve themselves in Florida's state politics, yet censor Blacks out of movie posters, edit gay kisses out of movies, and
thank those running concentration camps for ethnic minorities in their film credits just so they can keep making money from the Chinese.
So since you think Democrats are for domestic energy independence , hate illegal immigration and want to bring manufacturing back to the U.S., I will wait patiently while you provide a list of them. I'll settle for three, since that's all the Republican examples I provided. And by energy independence I mean fossil fuels, not the usual Democrat "lets all use environmentally-friendly antimatter technology for energy production, never mind that it hasn't been invented yet, we'll cancel fossil fuels and worry about inventing that shit later."
It seems to me that one big problem with Ukraine is that the country's borders were drawn without any consideration for ethnic realities, and with little to no input from the people who actually lived there. You see the same problem with counties in the Balkans, the Middle East and in Africa. Ukraine was just a region (the name literally means "borderland" or "frontier") filled with Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, and even a few Hungarians, then it became a country, but one where its countrymen share little but a history of conflict with one another. The government naming Stepan Bandera a "Hero of Ukraine," building statues of the guy, naming streets after him and operating several museums that lionize him doesn't help matters, but rather inflames them. It's like if the U.S. government built statues of Phil Sheridan and Andrew Jackson on every Indian reservation. It would be taken, rightly, as intentional provocation and humiliation.
Quote from: I on June 26, 2022, 03:02:40 PM
It seems to me that one big problem with Ukraine is that the country's borders were drawn without any consideration for ethnic realities, and with little to no input from the people who actually lived there. You see the same problem with counties in the Balkans, the Middle East and in Africa. Ukraine was just a region (the name literally means "borderland" or "frontier") filled with Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, and even a few Hungarians, then it became a country, but one where its countrymen share little but a history of conflict with one another. The government naming Stepan Bandera a "Hero of Ukraine," building statues of the guy, naming streets after him and operating several museums that lionize him doesn't help matters, but rather inflames them. It's like if the U.S. government built statues of Phil Sheridan and Andrew Jackson on every Indian reservation. It would be taken, rightly, as intentional provocation and humiliation.
That's been true since at least WW1. The end of the two World Wars and decolonialization involved a lot of random bureaucrats drawing lines on maps of places they knew little about, leading to borders that made no sense from a geographic or cultural standpoint. This even includes things like the US states, which were drawn in a rush as the expanding nation grabbed and then diced up new territory as quickly as it could. Which led to messes like Nevada, the vast majority of which is a desert whose rivers all empty into the Great Salt Lake, or West Virginia, a state which is basically mountains with no room for agriculture or major cities, and with very poor access (WV was a reaction to the Civil War, but the border was also rushed). Neither makes any sense as an independent state. This is worse in places like Africa, South America, the Balkans, much of the Middle East and Asia, where ethnic and linguistic groups were artificially severed or forced together into arrangements where one would be a perpetual minority, leading to endless persecution, strife, and often genocide; or large, contiguous groups of people like the Kurds with no homeland.
This is 100% a result of the "modern world order" to which all authoritarians sing paeans of technocratic adoration, because not a single major government or extra-state organization favors border change. It's anathema, forbidden, the sin of all sins. This is because, since the rise of the Wesphalian state, sovereignty within one's borders is the sacred belief of all statists. It's why Russia's definition of a broader Russia is considered an unspeakable heresy, even if some of those areas are ethnically Russian and would have voted to join with Russia instead of the Ukraine.
Many maps around the world cause vast pain and suffering, and should be redrawn. The breakup of the Czech and Yugo- slavias were much needed. There's a difference between wars of conquest and assimilation, and voluntary succession and accession. We can frown on the first, but we need to push back against the rigid status quoists, and encourage and celebrate the latter. Borders should be fluid, as peoples and their cultures changes. If people want to leave, we should let them, instead of waging horrific wars to preserve a nonconsensual union.
But as discussed earlier, this war may have helped forge a distinct Ukrainian sense of nationalism. Like the other gateway states between the continents, such as Poland, on whose fields endless blood has been spilled as warlords have used them as passages to sweeter targets, Ukraine has struggled to maintain a unique identity.
Quote from: I on June 26, 2022, 03:02:40 PM
It seems to me that one big problem with Ukraine is that the country's borders were drawn without any consideration for ethnic realities, and with little to no input from the people who actually lived there.
Well also a large chunk of people in the east living there where relocated after the ethnic population was starved in the millions.
More pain for putin...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t-pdZSv7G10&t=472s
Am I a prick for not feeling sorry for him? ;D
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 27, 2022, 10:10:58 AM
Quote from: I on June 26, 2022, 03:02:40 PM
It seems to me that one big problem with Ukraine is that the country's borders were drawn without any consideration for ethnic realities, and with little to no input from the people who actually lived there.
Well also a large chunk of people in the east living there where relocated after the ethnic population was starved in the millions.
And a related problem there is just the passage of time. The Holodomor, horrific as it was, was almost 90 years ago and four generations have been born there since.
How much responsibility does someone who's great great grandfather was relocated there by the Soviets have for living where his father, grandfather and great grandfather were born?
Where are he and his family supposed to relocate if the land he lives on is claimed as reparations for the crimes of his ancestor's government*? His family has lived there as long as his eldest living relative can remember. Where is his home supposed to be?
Is he entitled to any compensation for improvements made by himself and his ancestors if he is made to leave? Or do the sins of those he never even knew mean he and his family should be tossed into the streets and stripped of citizenship with no country to call home?
How do you achieve justice for the atrocities committed by people long dead without creating a new one yourself?
That's the problem with a lot conflicts; none of the groups involved are static so sooner or later you're holding people accountable for things they played no part in and no territory on Earth is still in the hands of the first people to set foot on it. It doesn't take long before your efforts to reclaim something that historically belonged to your people are just pushing out people who've lived there their entire lives, if not their parents and even grandparents lives.
Do the ancestors of the Scythians have a claim on any lands in Ukraine? It was their territory right through antiquity until the Goths conquered it in the 2nd Century AD only to lose it to the Slavic migrations of the early Medieval period. At some point each previous group loses their legitimate claim to the territory and their descendants become innocent of any crime unless you believe in collective guilt by blood relation.
I don't have a one-size-fits all answer on when that is... but it has to happen at some point or everyone is guilty by blood of every past sin of every ancestor since the human race began... everyone is guilty of crimes worthy of death and the only way to ever make it right is kill everyone on Earth to avenge all the dead victims of history.
The only thing that doesn't end up with endless bloodshed is accepting that people are only truly responsible for the sins they've personally committed and that in an imperfect world such as ours sometimes justice will have to be left in the hands of God.
* it's not like the average Russian settler in the 1930's had much of any say to where the Soviet government moved them. Holding their descendants accountable as if they committed the crime further compounds the potential for injustice.
Damn, Chris, that is one well reasoned, rational and intelligent response. You should run for political office but sadly you'de never be elected with a demeeanor like that.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 28, 2022, 04:59:19 AM
Damn, Chris, that is one well reasoned, rational and intelligent response. You should run for political office but sadly you'de never be elected with a demeeanor like that.
I'd also step on the toes of a lot of people who survive off grifting. The logic is the same when it comes to the reparations issue in the United States; slavery here ended 157 years ago and 5-6 generations have been born in the century and a half since. Half my ancestors alive at that time didn't even live in the country. The other half fought in the Civil War to end slavery. Some of those demanding reparations immigrated from other countries after slavery had ended so their ancestors were never enslaved to begin with.
No one alive today had anything to do with slavery. Many people's ancestors weren't even here at the time and others fought and died to end it. Later generations stood with and helped pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (with little help of that era's Democrats; that was Republican legislation) before many of us here were even born.
We've had affirmative action/quota/reverse discrimination policies in place in education and business for decades now. Yet the demand of the grifters is still reparations for slavery when everyone actually responsible for it is long dead and even if you did argue for blood debt many of those they demand payment from have no ancestors who owned slaves.
At a certain point the seeking of justice for the long dead becomes injustice committed against people innocent of any crime. How many more decades of affirmative action policies must there be before everyone is even? If we actually paid the reparations demanded by the grifters how many years would it be before they claimed those were not enough and they deserve more because things still aren't equal in outcome?*
Collective anything isn't justice. If it were genuine justice they wouldn't need to keep slapping adjectives onto it. They call social or racial justice precisely because the desired outcomes for their collective do result in injustice being done to others.
* Equality of outcome can never be achieved in a just world, only opportunities. If two people are given $100k and one uses it to start a business that turns into a success and the other spends it on drugs and hookers over a long weekend... is it then just to demand the business owner give half his company to Mr. Hookers & Blow in order to ensure equality of outcome?
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 28, 2022, 08:38:03 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 28, 2022, 04:59:19 AM
Damn, Chris, that is one well reasoned, rational and intelligent response. You should run for political office but sadly you'de never be elected with a demeeanor like that.
I'd also step on the toes of a lot of people who survive off grifting. The logic is the same when it comes to the reparations issue in the United States; slavery here ended 157 years ago and 5-6 generations have been born in the century and a half since. Half my ancestors alive at that time didn't even live in the country. The other half fought in the Civil War to end slavery. Some of those demanding reparations immigrated from other countries after slavery had ended so their ancestors were never enslaved to begin with.
No one alive today had anything to do with slavery. Many people's ancestors weren't even here at the time and others fought and died to end it. Later generations stood with and helped pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (with little help of that era's Democrats; that was Republican legislation) before many of us here were even born.
We've had affirmative action/quota/reverse discrimination policies in place in education and business for decades now. Yet the demand of the grifters is still reparations for slavery when everyone actually responsible for it is long dead and even if you did argue for blood debt many of those they demand payment from have no ancestors who owned slaves.
At a certain point the seeking of justice for the long dead becomes injustice committed against people innocent of any crime. How many more decades of affirmative action policies must there be before everyone is even? If we actually paid the reparations demanded by the grifters how many years would it be before they claimed those were not enough and they deserve more because things still aren't equal in outcome?*
Collective anything isn't justice. If it were genuine justice they wouldn't need to keep slapping adjectives onto it. They call social or racial justice precisely because the desired outcomes for their collective do result in injustice being done to others.
* Equality of outcome can never be achieved in a just world, only opportunities. If two people are given $100k and one uses it to start a business that turns into a success and the other spends it on drugs and hookers over a long weekend... is it then just to demand the business owner give half his company to Mr. Hookers & Blow in order to ensure equality of outcome?
I think the name for that is called blood libel, and is largely considered a massive injustice in the context the term originated. Yet for some reason modern "thinkers" feel it will end well. Oh well, I think it is a trait of human nature to look for someone else to blame for your problems, as long as that exists I think this merry go round keeps going.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2022, 08:54:59 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 28, 2022, 08:38:03 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 28, 2022, 04:59:19 AM
Damn, Chris, that is one well reasoned, rational and intelligent response. You should run for political office but sadly you'de never be elected with a demeeanor like that.
I'd also step on the toes of a lot of people who survive off grifting. The logic is the same when it comes to the reparations issue in the United States; slavery here ended 157 years ago and 5-6 generations have been born in the century and a half since. Half my ancestors alive at that time didn't even live in the country. The other half fought in the Civil War to end slavery. Some of those demanding reparations immigrated from other countries after slavery had ended so their ancestors were never enslaved to begin with.
No one alive today had anything to do with slavery. Many people's ancestors weren't even here at the time and others fought and died to end it. Later generations stood with and helped pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (with little help of that era's Democrats; that was Republican legislation) before many of us here were even born.
We've had affirmative action/quota/reverse discrimination policies in place in education and business for decades now. Yet the demand of the grifters is still reparations for slavery when everyone actually responsible for it is long dead and even if you did argue for blood debt many of those they demand payment from have no ancestors who owned slaves.
At a certain point the seeking of justice for the long dead becomes injustice committed against people innocent of any crime. How many more decades of affirmative action policies must there be before everyone is even? If we actually paid the reparations demanded by the grifters how many years would it be before they claimed those were not enough and they deserve more because things still aren't equal in outcome?*
Collective anything isn't justice. If it were genuine justice they wouldn't need to keep slapping adjectives onto it. They call social or racial justice precisely because the desired outcomes for their collective do result in injustice being done to others.
* Equality of outcome can never be achieved in a just world, only opportunities. If two people are given $100k and one uses it to start a business that turns into a success and the other spends it on drugs and hookers over a long weekend... is it then just to demand the business owner give half his company to Mr. Hookers & Blow in order to ensure equality of outcome?
I think the name for that is called blood libel, and is largely considered a massive injustice in the context the term originated. Yet for some reason modern "thinkers" feel it will end well. Oh well, I think it is a trait of human nature to look for someone else to blame for your problems, as long as that exists I think this merry go round keeps going.
To be fair, there are legitimate past injustices of horrific scale; the Armenian Genocide, the Holodomor, the Holocaust, Slavery. It is right to want justice for these crimes.
It is wrong though to assign blame to those who had nothing to do with those crimes, particularly long after everyone involved in the actual crime is long dead. The great great grandchild of an uncaught murderer does not deserve to die because the victim's great great grandchild demands justice for the crime.
It probably wouldn't sit right with everyone; but I think in many of these cases the only justice we the living can provide for the long dead without committing injustices of our own is to promote the remembrance that these crimes occurred; plant monuments to those lost and reminders of who the criminals were and what they represented so that future generations can avoid following down the same road.
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 28, 2022, 09:12:04 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2022, 08:54:59 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 28, 2022, 08:38:03 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 28, 2022, 04:59:19 AM
Damn, Chris, that is one well reasoned, rational and intelligent response. You should run for political office but sadly you'de never be elected with a demeeanor like that.
I'd also step on the toes of a lot of people who survive off grifting. The logic is the same when it comes to the reparations issue in the United States; slavery here ended 157 years ago and 5-6 generations have been born in the century and a half since. Half my ancestors alive at that time didn't even live in the country. The other half fought in the Civil War to end slavery. Some of those demanding reparations immigrated from other countries after slavery had ended so their ancestors were never enslaved to begin with.
No one alive today had anything to do with slavery. Many people's ancestors weren't even here at the time and others fought and died to end it. Later generations stood with and helped pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (with little help of that era's Democrats; that was Republican legislation) before many of us here were even born.
We've had affirmative action/quota/reverse discrimination policies in place in education and business for decades now. Yet the demand of the grifters is still reparations for slavery when everyone actually responsible for it is long dead and even if you did argue for blood debt many of those they demand payment from have no ancestors who owned slaves.
At a certain point the seeking of justice for the long dead becomes injustice committed against people innocent of any crime. How many more decades of affirmative action policies must there be before everyone is even? If we actually paid the reparations demanded by the grifters how many years would it be before they claimed those were not enough and they deserve more because things still aren't equal in outcome?*
Collective anything isn't justice. If it were genuine justice they wouldn't need to keep slapping adjectives onto it. They call social or racial justice precisely because the desired outcomes for their collective do result in injustice being done to others.
* Equality of outcome can never be achieved in a just world, only opportunities. If two people are given $100k and one uses it to start a business that turns into a success and the other spends it on drugs and hookers over a long weekend... is it then just to demand the business owner give half his company to Mr. Hookers & Blow in order to ensure equality of outcome?
I think the name for that is called blood libel, and is largely considered a massive injustice in the context the term originated. Yet for some reason modern "thinkers" feel it will end well. Oh well, I think it is a trait of human nature to look for someone else to blame for your problems, as long as that exists I think this merry go round keeps going.
To be fair, there are legitimate past injustices of horrific scale; the Armenian Genocide, the Holodomor, the Holocaust, Slavery. It is right to want justice for these crimes.
It is wrong though to assign blame to those who had nothing to do with those crimes, particularly long after everyone involved in the actual crime is long dead. The great great grandchild of an uncaught murderer does not deserve to die because the victim's great great grandchild demands justice for the crime.
It probably wouldn't sit right with everyone; but I think in many of these cases the only justice we the living can provide for the long dead without committing injustices of our own is to promote the remembrance that these crimes occurred; plant monuments to those lost and reminders of who the criminals were and what they represented so that future generations can avoid following down the same road.
yeah, we call that wisdom (knowledge with scars), and it has always been a little short in the mental stores for most people, and seems really low supply these days.
Chris, you do know I was praising you, right?
As to shit happening 90 years ago, uh, you do know that in the Mideast was are still being fought over shit that happened oger a thousand years ago, right?
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 28, 2022, 10:20:52 AM
Chris, you do know I was praising you, right?
As to shit happening 90 years ago, uh, you do know that in the Mideast was are still being fought over shit that happened oger a thousand years ago, right?
I did realize that, yes. I was merely expounding on the point to give broader context that it is not just a matter in the current conflict, but is part and parcel of many claims for justice for the long dead at the expense of various innocents.
I am also aware of the situation in the Middle East and, frankly, the United States' role in perpetuating it so as to enrich various elitists of both parties. The problem there is that many of the parties do believe in blood libel and perpetual ownership of territory (starting from the moment their people/ancestors took claim anyway... who came before or who came after is irrelevant).
Those who seek control over others love blood libel and claims of historical ownership; it's a great rallying cry to lend a sense of moral imperative to their conquest of others... "generations ago this land belonged to our people, but (the distant ancestors of) those people stole it from us and we deserve it back."
That's the lion's share of Putin's justification for his actions in Ukraine* and it's the same one used in the initial stages of just about any modern campaign of conquest. Hitler started off claiming he only wanted to reclaim traditionally German territory (belonging to it far more recently than Ukraine belonged to the Russian Empire even).
Conquerors have to wrap their conquests up in language like that because if they told the truth they'd never get anyone to go fight their wars.
"Leave your farm and family, risk your life to enrich and empower the already rich and powerful and, as a reward, if you're lucky, you get to return to your farm and family in more or less one piece until the rich and powerful need more riches and power and so will take your son away from his family to do it all again."No one in their right mind would sign up for that... there'd be mass revolt. That's why it's always wrapped up in some claim of seeking justice or keeping your family safe or "making the world safe for democracy."
It's quite telling that the one President in 40 years who never started a new foreign conflict during their term is the one the establishment members of both parties hated and comspired to remove from office. The establishment forbade him even a single recess appointment during his entire term so he could only use establishment cronies to fill his cabinet who wouldn't go against the graft.
The central planners want to centralize even more of society; calling it Build Back Better... but the only thing that will actually make the world better is by decentralizing power so no one assclown has the power to start another of these pointless Forever Wars.
* military actions taken by the Ukrainian government against ethnic Russian civilians in eastern Ukraine since 2014 in violation of various treaties were also claimed as motives, but if that were the entire motivation then their attacks would have long since ceased since those regions have been secured by the Russians. Instead attacks into Western Ukraine continue.
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 27, 2022, 08:59:40 PM
And a related problem there is just the passage of time. The Holodomor, horrific as it was, was almost 90 years ago and four generations have been born there since.
How much responsibility does someone who's great great grandfather was relocated there by the Soviets have for living where his father, grandfather and great grandfather were born?
Where was the implication I was blaming the people living there?
Those people where the ones who had their homes blown up first in this war. A large majority dislocated are those from the east.
Im angry at the current Russian government for using that weak as hell claim to bombard the people they are "rescuing". So they can secure a land bridge to project naval strength they don't have. Also getting access to natural resources by pure coincidence.
I don't believe in reparations, but if your gonna kill and displace people, don't claim your rescuing them.
I think there's a certain degree of dark humor to the fact that both America and RUSSIA promised to more or less defend Ukraine in the case of an invasion in exchange for their disarmament.
I also kinda have to admit that with recent decisions and consequences for former USA cooperators in places like Afghanistan America might not be looking as good on the global stage as regards long term support to our declared allies and the like.
Not saying political agreements should always be followed through on if unjust, nonsensical, or totally self-destructive, but if things like a promised action not being innately to one's immediate noticeable and unarguable strategic interests in the moment were an excuse not to do them, then I feel like maybe that kinda nullifies the point of making most agreements. In part because what are promises worth if you abandon them the moment they are viewed as unfavorable, and why rely on long term promises and agreements at all if nations will just and should just do what they feel benefits them the most from moment to moment.
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 28, 2022, 12:02:59 PM
It's quite telling that the one President in 40 years who never started a new foreign conflict during their term is the one the establishment members of both parties hated and comspired to remove from office. The establishment forbade him even a single recess appointment during his entire term so he could only use establishment cronies to fill his cabinet who wouldn't go against the graft.
The central planners want to centralize even more of society; calling it Build Back Better... but the only thing that will actually make the world better is by decentralizing power so no one assclown has the power to start another of these pointless Forever Wars.
* military actions taken by the Ukrainian government against ethnic Russian civilians in eastern Ukraine since 2014 in violation of various treaties were also claimed as motives, but if that were the entire motivation then their attacks would have long since ceased since those regions have been secured by the Russians. Instead attacks into Western Ukraine continue.
If you're talking about that
thing that was in the white house after losing to Hillary Clinton by 3 million votes, I remind you it launched military strikes at Syria.
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/1144601/trump-orders-missile-attack-in-retaliation-for-syrian-chemical-strikes/
Also, it has been established that the
animal in the white house in 2020 wanted to use the US military to 'beat the fuck out of'' and shoot protestors in Washington in 2020. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/mark-esper-trump-shoot-black-lives-matter-protesters-1346079/
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 28, 2022, 12:56:37 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 28, 2022, 12:02:59 PM
It's quite telling that the one President in 40 years who never started a new foreign conflict during their term is the one the establishment members of both parties hated and comspired to remove from office. The establishment forbade him even a single recess appointment during his entire term so he could only use establishment cronies to fill his cabinet who wouldn't go against the graft.
The central planners want to centralize even more of society; calling it Build Back Better... but the only thing that will actually make the world better is by decentralizing power so no one assclown has the power to start another of these pointless Forever Wars.
* military actions taken by the Ukrainian government against ethnic Russian civilians in eastern Ukraine since 2014 in violation of various treaties were also claimed as motives, but if that were the entire motivation then their attacks would have long since ceased since those regions have been secured by the Russians. Instead attacks into Western Ukraine continue.
If you're talking about that thing that was in the white house after losing to Hillary Clinton by 3 million votes, I remind you it launched military strikes at Syria.
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/1144601/trump-orders-missile-attack-in-retaliation-for-syrian-chemical-strikes/
Also, it has been established that the animal in the white house in 2020 wanted to use the US military to 'beat the fuck out of'' and shoot protestors in Washington in 2020. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/mark-esper-trump-shoot-black-lives-matter-protesters-1346079/
Winning by 3 million votes shows how great democrats are at stuffing ballot boxes in Cali I guess, but not much past that.
Ogg, you're an idiot.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 28, 2022, 09:43:09 PM
Ogg, you're an idiot.
You do understand Biden won Cali by like 5 million votes, right? Because if you do not understand that, and insult another person's intelligence...it really, really says a whole lot about how many boogers your sorry ass eats a day while sitting in that adult diaper at a computer.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 28, 2022, 12:16:59 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 27, 2022, 08:59:40 PM
And a related problem there is just the passage of time. The Holodomor, horrific as it was, was almost 90 years ago and four generations have been born there since.
How much responsibility does someone who's great great grandfather was relocated there by the Soviets have for living where his father, grandfather and great grandfather were born?
Where was the implication I was blaming the people living there?
Those people where the ones who had their homes blown up first in this war. A large majority dislocated are those from the east.
Im angry at the current Russian government for using that weak as hell claim to bombard the people they are "rescuing". So they can secure a land bridge to project naval strength they don't have. Also getting access to natural resources by pure coincidence.
I don't believe in reparations, but if your gonna kill and displace people, don't claim your rescuing them.
You're not really arguing that everybody living in eastern Ukraine all speak Ukrainian and want to belong to Ukraine and hate Russia? Because that's objectively not true. Their homes were blown up by the Ukrainian military, and have been since 2014. They're not all on Russia's side, but there's a reason the area seceded. Do you not watch any news but Western propaganda? REAL journalists, unlike the Democrat shills in the U.S., have been covering the news in that area for a long time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8j0tJsKltg
And while the Holodomor was certainly real and certainly tragic (though Western Leftists denied it was real until the USSR fell and the evidence became too much to ignore), the idea that eastern Ukraine had no Russian-speakers living in it before then is ridiculous. Gogol's story "Viy" (1835) is set in Ukraine and he talks about Cossacks, Little Russians and the different peoples all living in that area. And as for "rescuing" the people they're killing and getting access to natural resources... America and its allies better look in the mirror on that one.
Quote from: I on June 29, 2022, 12:53:38 PM
You're not really arguing that everybody living in eastern Ukraine all speak Ukrainian and want to belong to Ukraine and hate Russia? Because that's objectively not true. Their homes were blown up by the Ukrainian military, and have been since 2014. They're not all on Russia's side, but there's a reason the area seceded. Do you not watch any news but Western propaganda? REAL journalists, unlike the Democrat shills in the U.S., have been covering the news in that area for a long time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8j0tJsKltg
And while the Holodomor was certainly real and certainly tragic (though Western Leftists denied it was real until the USSR fell and the evidence became too much to ignore), the idea that eastern Ukraine had no Russian-speakers living in it before then is ridiculous.
Yes, eastern Ukraine had a large percentage of Russian speakers, like many of the post-Soviet republics. However, you're implying here that all of "Eastern Ukraine" seceded and was being bombed prior to the war. However, it was only a minority slice of Donetsk and Luhantz that were held by armed rebels. I've been talking to people I know in both Ukraine and Russia. They're all extremely anti-Putin.
In particular, the Poroshenko speech at the start of that film is mistranslated and edited for effect - which should be obvious. Even ethnic oppressors don't speak so openly on camera about such things. He was addressing the mostly Russian-speaking people of Odessa. In the speech, the "we" and "they" isn't Ukrainian-speaking vs Russian-speaking, but peaceful citizens vs violent rebels. He was talking about applying non-violent consequences for armed rebels. That because they were in armed rebellion against the government, they would not have government services.
https://www.stopfake.org/en/lies-petro-poroshenko-promised-that-children-from-donbas-would-be-sitting-in-cellars/
I can believe that Poroshenko is privately biased against Russian speakers, but there's no way he would talk that way on camera about 1/3rd of his country, when less than 5% was in rebellion. He especially wouldn't speak that way when addressing a largely Russian-speaking city.
As for the separatists -- I have sympathy for peaceful separatist movements like Scotland, Catalonia, and Quebec. However, redrawing borders along ethnic lines brings to mind India/Pakistan and Israel/Palestine, which were disastrous and served only to increase ethnic conflict.
Quote from: I on June 29, 2022, 12:53:38 PMYou're not really arguing that everybody living in eastern Ukraine all speak Ukrainian and want to belong to Ukraine and hate Russia?
No. But the bombings pre-invasion where double digits in casualties. The Ukrainian government is a bag of dicks. Its corrupt, and decadent with weak ideas about national unity.
But Russian government is Ukraine+ in all of those qualities. So the war happening for those territories is an absolute farce.
Edit: If Russia takes those territories I sincerely hope the people living there live better lives.
I agree about the current Ukrainian government, and my sympathies were far more for Ukraine prior to the U.S. deposing its elected president and installing a puppet. I am also for peaceful secession movements. But it takes two to make peace, and if the central government decides they're not allowing secession, then there will be war. And my sympathies are 100% with Ukraine when it comes to them vs. Stalin or any other USSR leader. I didn't believe all the bullshit coming out of the Western media about Ukraine being full of neo-Nazis and white supremacists (which was their tack before they about-faced and decided Ukraine was a bastion of liberal democracy when Russia invaded). Ukrainians don't help themselves by waving swastikas and adopting SS symbols, but they're not Nazis. There are two sides to every story, and as an American I really resent (1) America being involved on either side, it's not our fight, and (2) the American media distorting the facts by presenting only one side at a time -- are the Ukrainians evil Nazis, or heroic democratic freedom fighters? Because they can't be both at the same time. And NATO was flat-out wrong to push itself right up to Russia's borders, wrong to turn itself into an offensive alliance rather than a defensive one, and wrong to even exist after the Warsaw Pact broke up. My beef is not so much with Ukraine, it's with America's involvement in it and the American media's blatant manipulation of the public to get it to go along with whatever our government wants.
America got involved in WW I for similar reasons (financially backing only one side in a war), then that war led to WW II. How did the rest of the world getting involved in Serbia's conflict with the Austro-Hungarian Empire work out for Serbia? How has it worked out in the long run? Serbia got taken over by Austria-Hungary, then the Nazis, then the Communists, and finally bombed into submission by their "allies," the Americans and British.
I support secession in my own country; why wouldn't support it elsewhere? It's better to get along as friends than stay together as enemies.
Quote from: I on June 30, 2022, 02:15:20 PM
I support secession in my own country; why wouldn't support it elsewhere? It's better to get along as friends than stay together as enemies.
I agree with that. Thats also not the Russian power structure. That alternates between tyrannical dictatorship with aims for conquest and chaotic anarchy picked apart by outsiders. Its been that way since the mongols conquest and a bunch of ethnic groups where forced together.
Russia doesn't want separatists. It wants 100 weakened republics that all 100% depend on it. Russia has been an empire by conquest for hundreds of years. Governments join NATO willingly to escape russia. They join Russia by force.
Americans are also deeply self obsessed. Because they where involved in some government must mean there where no other players. Because the scenario is grey assuming that you walk away from the table you stop playing the game.
Edit: To clarify - wether an american loves America, or hates it, they all seem to have a cartoonish one-size fits all view of the world, and are absolutely certain they have it figured out.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 30, 2022, 02:27:23 PM
Quote from: I on June 30, 2022, 02:15:20 PM
I support secession in my own country; why wouldn't support it elsewhere? It's better to get along as friends than stay together as enemies.
I agree with that. Thats also not the Russian power structure. That alternates between tyrannical dictatorship with aims for conquest and chaotic anarchy picked apart by outsiders. Its been that way since the mongols conquest and a bunch of ethnic groups where forced together.
Russia doesn't want separatists. It wants 100 weakened republics that all 100% depend on it. Russia has been an empire by conquest for hundreds of years. Governments join NATO willingly to escape russia. They join Russia by force.
Americans are also deeply self obsessed. Because they where involved in some government must mean there where no other players. Because the scenario is grey assuming that you walk away from the table you stop playing the game.
Edit: To clarify - wether an american loves America, or hates it, they all seem to have a cartoonish one-size fits all view of the world, and are absolutely certain they have it figured out.
There's nothing you said here that is untrue.
THB I read the 'I support secession in my own country' line and nodded. As an american I thnk we should encourage people to move out of hopessly red states into purple or pale blue ones, form solid voting majorities and vote to secede from the red states.
We end up with 'america' and something called 'Donaldtrumpistan', 'murkkka' , 'Jeezuzzland' or WTFE.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 02, 2022, 12:05:23 AMTHB I read the 'I support secession in my own country' line and nodded.
I sincerely apreciate your efforts to drag this conversation about an actual ongoing war with actual people that are actually dying by the hundreds into a spat about USA based political dickwaving.
But If you want to just call people names, you can make a separate thread instead.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 02, 2022, 12:05:23 AM
THB I read the 'I support secession in my own country' line and nodded. As an american I thnk we should encourage people to move out of hopessly red states into purple or pale blue ones, form solid voting majorities and vote to secede from the red states.
We end up with 'america' and something called 'Donaldtrumpistan', 'murkkka' , 'Jeezuzzland' or WTFE.
More likely you end up with something resembling Kurt Schlichter's 'People's Republic' novels.
But do go on. You have such a vivid imagination.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 02, 2022, 12:05:23 AM
THB I read the 'I support secession in my own country' line and nodded. As an american I thnk we should encourage people to move out of hopessly red states into purple or pale blue ones, form solid voting majorities and vote to secede from the red states.
We end up with 'america' and something called 'Donaldtrumpistan', 'murkkka' , 'Jeezuzzland' or WTFE.
Excpet that's not happening, is it?
People are sick and tired of living in failed blue states and are migrating
en masse to red states where crime is under control because nobody decided to defund the police when a fucking junkie got killed. How are those democrat cities doing, Battlefailure? How has the crime rate dropped?
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 02, 2022, 04:44:15 PM
People are sick and tired of living in failed blue states and are migrating en masse to red states where crime is under control because nobody decided to defund the police when a fucking junkie got killed. How are those democrat cities doing, Battlefailure? How has the crime rate dropped?
The crime rate in red states and cities is also up, though. I see an analysis from Pew Research for 2020, though I haven't seen a general update for 2021 yet.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/10/27/what-we-know-about-the-increase-in-u-s-murders-in-2020/
https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2022/02/09/lawmakers-target-rise-in-violent-crime-arizona-rates-remain-above-u-s/
The states that had the highest percent increase in crime in 2020 were Montana (+84%), South Dakota (+81%), Delaware (+62%) and Kentucky (+61%). California had a higher percentage increase than Texas - but even with the higher increase, Texas still has a higher per-capita murder rate than California. So that hardly explains the migration.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm
The real news about in-state migration is telecommuting. Since the pandemic, a huge number of jobs have gone to remote. People are then moving out of expensive cities and states (where the jobs are generally based) and moving to lower-cost cities and states.
Quote from: jhkim on July 02, 2022, 07:28:42 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 02, 2022, 04:44:15 PM
People are sick and tired of living in failed blue states and are migrating en masse to red states where crime is under control because nobody decided to defund the police when a fucking junkie got killed. How are those democrat cities doing, Battlefailure? How has the crime rate dropped?
The crime rate in red states and cities is also up, though. I see an analysis from Pew Research for 2020, though I haven't seen a general update for 2021 yet.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/10/27/what-we-know-about-the-increase-in-u-s-murders-in-2020/
https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2022/02/09/lawmakers-target-rise-in-violent-crime-arizona-rates-remain-above-u-s/
The states that had the highest percent increase in crime in 2020 were Montana (+84%), South Dakota (+81%), Delaware (+62%) and Kentucky (+61%). California had a higher percentage increase than Texas - but even with the higher increase, Texas still has a higher per-capita murder rate than California. So that hardly explains the migration.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm
The real news about in-state migration is telecommuting. Since the pandemic, a huge number of jobs have gone to remote. People are then moving out of expensive cities and states (where the jobs are generally based) and moving to lower-cost cities and states.
Notice how they always try the 'percentage' game when they want to talk about how bad the murder rate went up in a rural state like Montana... ;)
I'm not sure where they got the numbers though because according to the state government website Montana had 41 Murder/manslaughter incidents in 2019 and 51 of them in 2020...unless they only factored in 'specifically' murder in which case the overall total is obviously even lower than the 51. Also interesting that the 2018 total was also 41 and in 2021 it dropped back to 33 total...wonder what the percentage drop for the specifically 'murder' quantities were,,,
https://dataportal.mt.gov/t/MBCC/views/CIM-ViolentCrime/Dash_Main_ViolentCrime?iframeSizedToWindow=true&%3Aembed=y&%3AshowAppBanner=false&%3Adisplay_count=n&%3AshowVizHome=n&%3Aorigin=viz_share_link (https://dataportal.mt.gov/t/MBCC/views/CIM-ViolentCrime/Dash_Main_ViolentCrime?iframeSizedToWindow=true&%3Aembed=y&%3AshowAppBanner=false&%3Adisplay_count=n&%3AshowVizHome=n&%3Aorigin=viz_share_link)
Quote from: jhkim on July 02, 2022, 07:28:42 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 02, 2022, 04:44:15 PM
People are sick and tired of living in failed blue states and are migrating en masse to red states where crime is under control because nobody decided to defund the police when a fucking junkie got killed. How are those democrat cities doing, Battlefailure? How has the crime rate dropped?
The crime rate in red states and cities is also up, though. I see an analysis from Pew Research for 2020, though I haven't seen a general update for 2021 yet.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/10/27/what-we-know-about-the-increase-in-u-s-murders-in-2020/
https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2022/02/09/lawmakers-target-rise-in-violent-crime-arizona-rates-remain-above-u-s/
The states that had the highest percent increase in crime in 2020 were Montana (+84%), South Dakota (+81%), Delaware (+62%) and Kentucky (+61%). California had a higher percentage increase than Texas - but even with the higher increase, Texas still has a higher per-capita murder rate than California. So that hardly explains the migration.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm
The real news about in-state migration is telecommuting. Since the pandemic, a huge number of jobs have gone to remote. People are then moving out of expensive cities and states (where the jobs are generally based) and moving to lower-cost cities and states.
Cherry-picked sources again, jhkim? Just please stop it with the lies.
So let's get back to having this thread discuss what is happening in the Ukraine. We have a multitude of threads talking about the US, put your thoughts in to one of those.
Quote from: moonsweeper on July 02, 2022, 10:18:59 PM
Notice how they always try the 'percentage' game when they want to talk about how bad the murder rate went up in a rural state like Montana... ;)
I'm not sure where they got the numbers though because according to the state government website Montana had 41 Murder/manslaughter incidents in 2019 and 51 of them in 2020...unless they only factored in 'specifically' murder in which case the overall total is obviously even lower than the 51. Also interesting that the 2018 total was also 41 and in 2021 it dropped back to 33 total...wonder what the percentage drop for the specifically 'murder' quantities were,,,
https://dataportal.mt.gov/t/MBCC/views/CIM-ViolentCrime/Dash_Main_ViolentCrime?iframeSizedToWindow=true&%3Aembed=y&%3AshowAppBanner=false&%3Adisplay_count=n&%3AshowVizHome=n&%3Aorigin=viz_share_link (https://dataportal.mt.gov/t/MBCC/views/CIM-ViolentCrime/Dash_Main_ViolentCrime?iframeSizedToWindow=true&%3Aembed=y&%3AshowAppBanner=false&%3Adisplay_count=n&%3AshowVizHome=n&%3Aorigin=viz_share_link)
The homicide numbers are different on the Montana MBCC site and on the CDC site. In raw number of crimes/deaths, when I look at three sources, I see:
2020: 51 for MBCC, 65 for CDC, 57 for FBI
2019: 41 for MBCC, 39 for CDC, 37 for FBI
2018: 41 for MBCC, 42 for CDC, 39 for FBI
2017: 34 for MBCC, 42 for CDC, 41 for FBI
This from the CDC site that I originally cited, and comparing to the FBI's crime data explorer.
https://crime-data-explorer.app.cloud.gov/pages/explorer/crime/shr
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm
I'm not sure of the differences here, but I also don't think that's the point.
The claim was that red states were not seeing a crime increase, while blue states were. As far as I can tell, that's not the case. Crime has been increasing all over the country, and it doesn't look to me like there is any correlation with red vs blue state from any of these sources. If you've got a source that says that red states aren't seeing increases, I'd love to see it.
Quote from: jhkim on July 03, 2022, 02:21:34 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper on July 02, 2022, 10:18:59 PM
Notice how they always try the 'percentage' game when they want to talk about how bad the murder rate went up in a rural state like Montana... ;)
I'm not sure where they got the numbers though because according to the state government website Montana had 41 Murder/manslaughter incidents in 2019 and 51 of them in 2020...unless they only factored in 'specifically' murder in which case the overall total is obviously even lower than the 51. Also interesting that the 2018 total was also 41 and in 2021 it dropped back to 33 total...wonder what the percentage drop for the specifically 'murder' quantities were,,,
https://dataportal.mt.gov/t/MBCC/views/CIM-ViolentCrime/Dash_Main_ViolentCrime?iframeSizedToWindow=true&%3Aembed=y&%3AshowAppBanner=false&%3Adisplay_count=n&%3AshowVizHome=n&%3Aorigin=viz_share_link (https://dataportal.mt.gov/t/MBCC/views/CIM-ViolentCrime/Dash_Main_ViolentCrime?iframeSizedToWindow=true&%3Aembed=y&%3AshowAppBanner=false&%3Adisplay_count=n&%3AshowVizHome=n&%3Aorigin=viz_share_link)
The homicide numbers are different on the Montana MBCC site and on the CDC site. In raw number of crimes/deaths, when I look at three sources, I see:
2020: 51 for MBCC, 65 for CDC, 57 for FBI
2019: 41 for MBCC, 39 for CDC, 37 for FBI
2018: 41 for MBCC, 42 for CDC, 39 for FBI
2017: 34 for MBCC, 42 for CDC, 41 for FBI
This from the CDC site that I originally cited, and comparing to the FBI's crime data explorer.
https://crime-data-explorer.app.cloud.gov/pages/explorer/crime/shr
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm
I'm not sure of the differences here, but I also don't think that's the point.
The claim was that red states were not seeing a crime increase, while blue states were. As far as I can tell, that's not the case. Crime has been increasing all over the country, and it doesn't look to me like there is any correlation with red vs blue state from any of these sources. If you've got a source that says that red states aren't seeing increases, I'd love to see it.
OK, Groomer.
Quote from: jhkim on July 03, 2022, 02:21:34 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper on July 02, 2022, 10:18:59 PM
Notice how they always try the 'percentage' game when they want to talk about how bad the murder rate went up in a rural state like Montana... ;)
I'm not sure where they got the numbers though because according to the state government website Montana had 41 Murder/manslaughter incidents in 2019 and 51 of them in 2020...unless they only factored in 'specifically' murder in which case the overall total is obviously even lower than the 51. Also interesting that the 2018 total was also 41 and in 2021 it dropped back to 33 total...wonder what the percentage drop for the specifically 'murder' quantities were,,,
https://dataportal.mt.gov/t/MBCC/views/CIM-ViolentCrime/Dash_Main_ViolentCrime?iframeSizedToWindow=true&%3Aembed=y&%3AshowAppBanner=false&%3Adisplay_count=n&%3AshowVizHome=n&%3Aorigin=viz_share_link (https://dataportal.mt.gov/t/MBCC/views/CIM-ViolentCrime/Dash_Main_ViolentCrime?iframeSizedToWindow=true&%3Aembed=y&%3AshowAppBanner=false&%3Adisplay_count=n&%3AshowVizHome=n&%3Aorigin=viz_share_link)
The homicide numbers are different on the Montana MBCC site and on the CDC site. In raw number of crimes/deaths, when I look at three sources, I see:
2020: 51 for MBCC, 65 for CDC, 57 for FBI
2019: 41 for MBCC, 39 for CDC, 37 for FBI
2018: 41 for MBCC, 42 for CDC, 39 for FBI
2017: 34 for MBCC, 42 for CDC, 41 for FBI
This from the CDC site that I originally cited, and comparing to the FBI's crime data explorer.
https://crime-data-explorer.app.cloud.gov/pages/explorer/crime/shr
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm
I'm not sure of the differences here, but I also don't think that's the point.
The claim was that red states were not seeing a crime increase, while blue states were. As far as I can tell, that's not the case. Crime has been increasing all over the country, and it doesn't look to me like there is any correlation with red vs blue state from any of these sources. If you've got a source that says that red states aren't seeing increases, I'd love to see it.
Actually, the claim was (bolding mine)...
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 02, 2022, 04:44:15 PM
People are sick and tired of living in failed blue states and are migrating en masse to red states where crime is under control because nobody decided to defund the police when a fucking junkie got killed. How are those democrat cities doing, Battlefailure? How has the crime rate dropped?
which doesn't specify that it isn't going up...a more interesting metric is crime per capita, but that won't fit your narrative either...and zooming in on 'red states' to compare how the state looks minus the blue areas (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton in my case, or Indianapolis and East Chicago just next door) is going to look even worse...
----
Please feel free to return to the Ukraine conversation. It has been very entertaining.
Quote from: moonsweeper on July 03, 2022, 10:21:12 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 03, 2022, 02:21:34 AM
The claim was that red states were not seeing a crime increase, while blue states were. As far as I can tell, that's not the case. Crime has been increasing all over the country, and it doesn't look to me like there is any correlation with red vs blue state from any of these sources. If you've got a source that says that red states aren't seeing increases, I'd love to see it.
Actually, the claim was (bolding mine)...
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 02, 2022, 04:44:15 PM
People are sick and tired of living in failed blue states and are migrating en masse to red states where crime is under control because nobody decided to defund the police when a fucking junkie got killed. How are those democrat cities doing, Battlefailure? How has the crime rate dropped?
which doesn't specify that it isn't going up...a more interesting metric is crime per capita, but that won't fit your narrative either...and zooming in on 'red states' to compare how the state looks minus the blue areas (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton in my case, or Indianapolis and East Chicago just next door) is going to look even worse...
I was looking at crime per capita, and it doesn't fit any hyper-partisan narrative. Your claim is that red states have crime under control, yet as I stated, Texas still has a higher per-capita murder rate than California.
In general, big cities have higher crime rates - and bigger cities tend to skew Democrat. However, among cities of similar population, there doesn't seem to be any strong correlation of blue/red vs crime rate. For example, as red-leaning big cities, Jacksonville and Fort Worth have as high a crime rate as similarly-sized cities.
Hey Jhk, since you're on a good roll disputing rigged abd biased statistics I thought I'd sing out with another case of how figures can lie because liars can figure.
You hear about 'average' income in murka from fox news, but here's the thing: in modern murka average income doesn't mean a damn thing because averages are meaningless when the data points are totally skewed.
Take some oligarch that has 100 billion dollars. Put him in a room with 99 people who have nothing. The 'agerage' person has 1 billion dollars.
99% of the people in a that room have nothing, one has so much he destroyed the validity of averaging.
(Then you grab the oligarch by the throat and force him to give everyone else in the room a billion dollars each to make the average accurate. ;) )
The way to get a useful ideas of wealth in modern murka is to take the median, not the average.
I sorta feel like the secession movement in Ukraine didn't necessarily speak for everyone or even (and this is important) necessarily the majority throughout the land and all the individual municipalities and parts of it they wanted to have be seceded as a bloc. Some of that undermines its legitimacy to me.
I also don't often think secession is the answer as opposed to decentralization and allowing for differences of opinion and local rule within a system, as noted in the US Balkanization thread.
Also, sometimes citizens want to take away both their own and other citizen's rights and liberties that should be enshrined and protected against infringement within a constitution. I don't think any vote, even a simple majority vote, for a part of the US to join China, for instance, would be as valid as a decision to rule itself with liberties and natural rights in mind. Because that would involve using tyranny of the majority to strip away liberties and protections against government oppression that are guaranteed. Likewise, joining Russia means surrendering liberties and to some degree self-rule. (In part because Putin doesn't actually allow opposition parties and representatives a chance to succeed.) So even the argument by "self-rule" that some apologias for secession are founded upon rings a bit hollow there to me. Also, isn't the point of a Constitution in part to prevent tyranny of the majority trampling liberties and the like? I dunno if simple majority is enough to justify a secession that would strip away rights and democracy.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 03, 2022, 02:34:56 PM
You hear about 'average' income in murka from fox news, but here's the thing: in modern murka average income doesn't mean a damn thing because averages are meaningless when the data points are totally skewed.
Government statistics report both 'median income' and 'average income'.
But math impaired people will often cite 'median income' while calling it 'average income'.
For example in 2020, the average household income was $97,026.
The median household income which is what most report (including Fox Business news (https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/us-medican-income-soared-to-record-high-in-2019-as-poverty-fell)) was $67,521.
Some people, as noted, do not realize median and average are not the same word.
Quote from: DocJones on July 03, 2022, 07:16:58 PM
Government statistics report both 'median income' and 'average income'.
But math impaired people will often cite 'median income' while calling it 'average income'.
Not quite correct. While it is true that that when most people say "average", they really mean the "mean", the word "average" can also refer to the median, or even the mode. That's because "average" is not a mathematically precise term. If you want to be precise, use mean or median, not average.
But I agree with your general point that the error usually happens with the person interpreting the data. Most formal stats, government or not, are very clear about which version is being used. And for a lot of aggregate numbers, they favor the median because it's the best way to represent the typical person. Battlemaster is correct that the mean can be highly atypical if there are extreme outliers.
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 03, 2022, 02:46:52 PM
Likewise, joining Russia means surrendering liberties and to some degree self-rule. (In part because Putin doesn't actually allow opposition parties and representatives a chance to succeed.) So even the argument by "self-rule" that some apologias for secession are founded upon rings a bit hollow there to me.
Considering that Zelensky doesn't allow opposition parties or a free press, that's kind of a moot point:
https://news.yahoo.com/zelensky-nationalizes-tv-news-restricts-173820471.html
He's also a puppet installed by a foreign government (the U.S.). For three years Democrats tried to convince the country that Trump was a Russian puppet, and was therefore an illegitimate president. So... unlike Trump, Zelensky really IS a foreign-controlled puppet; why does he have any legitimacy?
Quote from: I on July 04, 2022, 12:40:38 AM
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 03, 2022, 02:46:52 PM
Likewise, joining Russia means surrendering liberties and to some degree self-rule. (In part because Putin doesn't actually allow opposition parties and representatives a chance to succeed.) So even the argument by "self-rule" that some apologias for secession are founded upon rings a bit hollow there to me.
Considering that Zelensky doesn't allow opposition parties or a free press, that's kind of a moot point:
https://news.yahoo.com/zelensky-nationalizes-tv-news-restricts-173820471.html
He's also a puppet installed by a foreign government (the U.S.). For three years Democrats tried to convince the country that Trump was a Russian puppet, and was therefore an illegitimate president. So... unlike Trump, Zelensky really IS a foreign-controlled puppet; why does he have any legitimacy?
Pretty sure my post referenced the secession movement prior to the start of Russia's invasion primarily with that reasoning, where it would still be valid.
That said, even with twisted and undemocratic restrictions being placed on pro-Russian parties Ukraine still has a (now limited) democracy. Russia is pretty clearly in Putin's pocket permanently until he dies, (which he may soon) at which point others within his regime inherit power autocratically. Zelensky has term limits, and there are elections, even if apparently liberty is being curtailed and to some degree full freedom of choice shat on.
Likewise, receiving some foreign aid in achieving a political position is not a crime, nor does it invalidate a win if direct ILLEGAL vote changing does not occur enough to shift who wins. The Democrats were full of shit and Trump argued even some degree of collusion would not be a crime. For the most part I agree. Having help winning does not make you any less the chosen leader of a democratic nation.
Also, I think it sketchy to conclude Zelensky is Joe Biden's puppet. For a puppet he sure makes a whole lot of demands, and had been telling the US/NATO to stay out of things, not assemble on the border, and not escalate prior to the Russian invasion. Likewise, I have yet to see proof he takes direct orders in all things from the US government. Helping someone you think will be useful in their opinions get elected is not the same as actively suborning, puppeting, and ordering around a blank slate/foreign agent.
Again, too, I am not sure a simple majority vote for secession to autocracy that is against both the law and constitutional principles of liberty is legit. Even if it were somehow a majority vote within an area which I doubt it would be, without the majority support of each and every one of the municipalities that would be counted as "seceding", seems kinda sketch. I also question a people's right to oppress or choose autocracy via majority vote more generally, whether it be accession to Russian autocratic domination, or yes, also Zelensky's weakening of the opposition via acquired war powers/popular support.
Also, on an unrelated note, Russia sabotaged Ukraine's armaments decades in advance in preparation for invasion, and so to say Ukraine, which hadn't even been accepted as a NATO candidate, was invaded purely to defend Russia seems dishonest to me. Especially given that Putin's regime seemed to not want a big or solid democracy next to it in general, and his messaging seemed to see Ukraine as rightfully a part of Russia's autocratic empire. Maybe clearer messaging that Ukraine would never be allowed to join NATO would have averted the attack, but I kinda doubt it.
Heck, even if that were the "reason", Ukraine as the defender seems to me like the preferable side to support. Both because screw autocratic wars of expansion, and what the hell kind of precedent is the US setting if it totally abandons a country it promised to defend in exactly this situation, among other things. Including the precedent that would be set for China taking Taiwan with little consequence and actions of the like if the US had levied no sanctions.
I had more to say, but it's getting late and I've kinda lost my train of thought.
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 04, 2022, 02:40:54 AM
Also, I think it sketchy to conclude Zelensky is Joe Biden's puppet.
We literally have Victoria Nuland on audio discusssing who the U.S. is going to install. Biden's a senile puppet of Obama's clique, and Zelensky's their puppet too. That Zelensky doesn't take orders as well as his U.S. masters would like -- and they are frustrated with him for that -- doesn't mean that they didn't install him. We know that they did; it's not a conspiracy theory, but fact.
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 04, 2022, 02:40:54 AM
Both because screw autocratic wars of expansion, and what the hell kind of precedent is the US setting if it totally abandons a country it promised to defend in exactly this situation, among other things. Including the precedent that would be set for China taking Taiwan with little consequence and actions of the like if the US had levied no sanctions.
Like the precedent Joe set when he abandoned Afghanistan? Abandoning a bunch of friends there, even Americans? He couldn't wait to get out of there. Now, I support getting out, but let's not pretend he didn't set a bad example. He ran because he's not been grifting millions of dollars out of Afghanistan, whereas in Ukraine he has -- his support has been bought and paid for. He's making money there while he's spending our money. His son didn't sit on the board of an Afghan energy company, while he does sit on the board of a Ukrainian one, and Joe gets 10% of the take. And Joe threatened their foreign aid if they didn't stop looking into that corruption. You'd think he'd WANT to keep sending foreign aid to Ukraine if they're such a great ally and Russia is such a threat, and for nothing in return, but nope, all he cared about was Hunter's phony "job."
Joe's also been bought off by the Chinese, so he's not gonna do shit if Taiwan gets invaded. Have you not heard the "I think you're clear" conference call between Joe, Hunter and other parties after one of Hunter's "associates" was arrested? It's the kind of conversation that bank robbers have, not sincere world leaders. Biden's corporate donors like Amazon, Disney, etc. do too much business with China to let him do anything significant to them. They do next to no business with Russia. We mainly get stuff like
fertilizer for our crops from Russia and they don't give a shit about that, but the flow of cheap plastic crap from China and selling our shitty movies to China makes them a lot of money, and they won't allow their man in the White House to interrupt the cash flow.
Quote from: I on July 04, 2022, 02:41:53 PMThat Zelensky doesn't take orders as well as his U.S. masters would like -- and they are frustrated with him for that -- doesn't mean that they didn't install him. We know that they did; it's not a conspiracy theory, but fact.
Well the case is that there are allot of fingers in this soup. I wish Ukraine was better prepared, and had better leadership and a more active population. But its not. And thats the reality that people living there just have to deal with. Do the people living there deserve to live in fear (or just die in fear) of Russian bombs because Putins lust for control, was understimated?
And the current reality is of bombs being lobbed on mass against people who didn't even have anything to do with the separatist question in the first place. And the separatists are also being funded by Russia as well, so there is absolutely no 'good' players (if there ever could be ones) in this equation.
The way people talk about this, its as if like China invaded Calefornia, well then its all OK, since both China and the USA are both corrupt, and some of Calefornia wanted to join China anyway.
And this is all just stupid time and life wasting between two countries with some of the lowest birthrates in Europe!
Quote from: I on July 04, 2022, 02:41:53 PM
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 04, 2022, 02:40:54 AM
Also, I think it sketchy to conclude Zelensky is Joe Biden's puppet.
We literally have Victoria Nuland on audio discusssing who the U.S. is going to install. Biden's a senile puppet of Obama's clique, and Zelensky's their puppet too. That Zelensky doesn't take orders as well as his U.S. masters would like -- and they are frustrated with him for that -- doesn't mean that they didn't install him. We know that they did; it's not a conspiracy theory, but fact.
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 04, 2022, 02:40:54 AM
Both because screw autocratic wars of expansion, and what the hell kind of precedent is the US setting if it totally abandons a country it promised to defend in exactly this situation, among other things. Including the precedent that would be set for China taking Taiwan with little consequence and actions of the like if the US had levied no sanctions.
Like the precedent Joe set when he abandoned Afghanistan? Abandoning a bunch of friends there, even Americans? He couldn't wait to get out of there. Now, I support getting out, but let's not pretend he didn't set a bad example. He ran because he's not been grifting millions of dollars out of Afghanistan, whereas in Ukraine he has -- his support has been bought and paid for. He's making money there while he's spending our money. His son didn't sit on the board of an Afghan energy company, while he does sit on the board of a Ukrainian one, and Joe gets 10% of the take. And Joe threatened their foreign aid if they didn't stop looking into that corruption. You'd think he'd WANT to keep sending foreign aid to Ukraine if they're such a great ally and Russia is such a threat, and for nothing in return, but nope, all he cared about was Hunter's phony "job."
Joe's also been bought off by the Chinese, so he's not gonna do shit if Taiwan gets invaded. Have you not heard the "I think you're clear" conference call between Joe, Hunter and other parties after one of Hunter's "associates" was arrested? It's the kind of conversation that bank robbers have, not sincere world leaders. Biden's corporate donors like Amazon, Disney, etc. do too much business with China to let him do anything significant to them. They do next to no business with Russia. We mainly get stuff like fertilizer for our crops from Russia and they don't give a shit about that, but the flow of cheap plastic crap from China and selling our shitty movies to China makes them a lot of money, and they won't allow their man in the White House to interrupt the cash flow.
I stand by my expanded position on how helping someone win an election does not make them your puppet. As well as my musings on the democratic "right" to choose authoritarianism and the sketchiness of the Ukrainian secession movement.
Supporting someone in an election, even if you have full confidence your support could tip the balance, (as MANY countries must believe else they would not bother with political operations in other nations) just means you supported somebody who supports your interests.
Lobbyists, citizen activist groups, and corporations on both sides do that in the US at every level, and while I would agree it has a negative impact often in the cases when it makes it easier for folks to get funding and support without supporting the broader interests of the public, generally support follows a candidate's professed policy and not as typically vice versa. I still think we have a democracy here, and our leaders are for the most part not literal puppets. (Though we could do much better.)
100% agree on Afghanistan. Total clusterfuck, even if we mostly got out American citizens or whatever, we screwed over everybody left behind. Leaving in the way we did was a mistake. Deserved more mention on this thread. Thank you for bringing it up.
Mostly agree on China, especially the damn corporate interests and not really needing them as much as people think. (I do like entrepreneurship and small businesses, but am skeptical of things like megacorps and elite capture, especially given recent woke corporate trends.) Kinda think the TPP might have helped shift us away from reliance, but a neoliberal multilateral deal under the WTO is still enough for me to have been skeptical of it.
On Taiwan, our alliances and cetera, we could definitely have a better record. Tho Biden at least had the bark (we'll see if there's any teeth beneath his flapping gums) to recently claim we'd support Taiwan directly militarily if China invaded.
Regarding Biden being corrupt, I think much like how Trump threatened/tried to cut and delay support to Ukraine if they didn't find stuff on Biden, Biden was of course gonna threaten (Can I have a link to share with more liberal folk I know? Thanks for the heads-up.) if they actively went after him or his reputation.
Biden seems pretty darn corrupt, or at the very least Hunter is and his dad's obfuscating, which is still corrupt. But that's sadly starting to look more par for the course politically regarding character these days. I plan on maybe voting third party, leaning moderate right (?), but we'll see how things progress and if my hatred for Biden's policy rises enough to overcome my dislike for the current establishment in politics. Wish DeSantis was planning on running, too, because I feel like that would give folks a superior right wing option.
I'm going off topic, but yeah.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 04, 2022, 04:27:56 PM
Quote from: I on July 04, 2022, 02:41:53 PMThat Zelensky doesn't take orders as well as his U.S. masters would like -- and they are frustrated with him for that -- doesn't mean that they didn't install him. We know that they did; it's not a conspiracy theory, but fact.
Well the case is that there are allot of fingers in this soup. I wish Ukraine was better prepared, and had better leadership and a more active population. But its not. And thats the reality that people living there just have to deal with. Do the people living there deserve to live in fear (or just die in fear) of Russian bombs because Putins lust for control, was understimated?
And the current reality is of bombs being lobbed on mass against people who didn't even have anything to do with the separatist question in the first place. And the separatists are also being funded by Russia as well, so there is absolutely no 'good' players (if there ever could be ones) in this equation.
The way people talk about this, its as if like China invaded Calefornia, well then its all OK, since both China and the USA are both corrupt, and some of Calefornia wanted to join China anyway.
And this is all just stupid time and life wasting between two countries with some of the lowest birthrates in Europe!
I agree it's all a stupid waste, and things should have been settled through negotiation. Of course the civilians don't deserve to suffer. Do you feel sorry for all the Serbian civilians that NATO killed? Russians did and asked us to stop; we told them to get stuffed. So why should they listen to us? I don't think the war is "OK," I just think America ought to stay out of it, especially since it's not clear to me that the side we are taking is any better than the other, for reasons I have already stated.
Poland, Hungary, the Baltic states -- all of these have reason to dislike and fear Russia. Let them enter the war on Ukraine's side, then. Leave America out of it. Not our fight. Russia is not the USSR. It has a GDP about the size of Italy's, and the EU GDP is eight times larger than Russia's. The EU is militarily weak out of choice, not necessity.
Quote from: I on July 05, 2022, 06:56:56 PMI agree it's all a stupid waste, and things should have been settled through negotiation.
'I don't acknowledge your state existing, and have taken chunks of it before.'
'OK, sure thing, we will give it all over in the most convenient way so that oil and grain prices are not affected in the United States.'
Is the only thing that would not have led to war. When the Russian top brass see the collapse of the USSR as a big mistake and Ukraine as 'Not a real state', then everything else was just shadow puppets.
Just laying out my cards on the table: Im a Ukrainian American. Lived 1/2 of my life there and I have immediate family there. My nearly 90 year old great aunt was a block away from where a long distance missile levelled a apartment a few months ago. She lived through WWII and lost her father in the conflict.
But before this invasion - I was actually pro-Russia in all of this. Ukraine was a collapsing house of cards. Corruption, lack of unity, evil politicians and a un-patriotic citizenry got me thinking that Russia would more or less have Ukraine join it within 30 or so years, western involvement or not (unless the west really planned to up the amount of carrots given).
2 days before the invasion date, I was absolutely sure it would not happen because Russia got everything it wanted and a get out of jail free card. The days of invasions where over. Was Russia gonna wage a destructive land war over the things it wants to conquer? Phah, that was in the past. And while Putin was an asshole, he was a forward thinking person who wasn't a child who would not be provoked into a economically suicidal war because somebody called him a doody head.
QuoteDo you feel sorry for all the Serbian civilians that NATO killed?
Yes. I also feel bad for all the Russian soldiers who die on shitty order for the glory of their leader.
I don't know what the greater NATO operations in the territory was.
I thought I was a cynical person. This war told me I was niave. The reality is that the world is still filled with the same people that would risk everything and smash things if the United States didn't have a gun pointed too their heads (for its own benefit largely, but this world order does have fringe benefits for allot of others). If you want a basic economic thing: because a large segment of the worlds grain and neon is produced in Ukraine. This disrupts supply and trade everywhere, and if Russia won it over, it would be invigorated to attack other places.
JooC, does anyone else think its possible pooty might, just might, use nukes if enough nations united against him?
Even if he is evil enough to decide to pulk a stunt like that, is there a chance his inner circle might finally do a von stauffenberg on him?
One can only hope that some of those generals value their men more than they do Putin.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 06, 2022, 04:47:40 PM
JooC, does anyone else think its possible pooty might, just might, use nukes if enough nations united against him?
Even if he is evil enough to decide to pulk a stunt like that, is there a chance his inner circle might finally do a von stauffenberg on him?
Answer to the first question is 'No, unless someone else launches first.'...doing some research on his training, education, and background will tell you how he thinks and the general outcome of the conflict is going where he wants. There is also the fact that international support against him isn't there.
That technically makes the second question irrelevant but some observations can be made. Putin is 'generally' liked in Russia. More importantly, regarding a direct threat, the most likely people to try and replace him (whatever the manner) are the hardliner types who are much more dangerous. They will react in a much more emotional manner, while Putin is more cold and calculating.
The USA considers nuclear war a mutual assured destruction situation (well or so its elite say, despite having many bunkers well stocked to survive it) while Soviet and Russian doctrine is it is winnable and survivable (they have alot more shelters, how well they would actually work out under the big test, I have no idea) so I am not so sure russians view nuclear war exactly as the USA does (at least the public view of both populations).
Their shelters may be made of plaster, and stocked with food that expired 30 years ago if their army is any indication.
Russian army forces have been found with 'trauma plates' in their body armor made of granite instead of silicon carbide and issued mres expired long ago.
In many cases the reactive armor on their tanks have been found to be empty boxes.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 07, 2022, 07:21:57 AM
Their shelters may be made of plaster, and stocked with food that expired 30 years ago if their army is any indication.
Russian army forces have been found with 'trauma plates' in their body armor made of granite instead of silicon carbide and issued mres expired long ago.
In many cases the reactive armor on their tanks have been found to be empty boxes.
While Ukrainian corruption is nothing to sneeze at, Russians have had problems for a LONG time -- predating the fall of the USSR -- with corruption as well.
Corruption is the default mode in eastern europe, it is SOP. Russia is an organized crime syndicate, there is nothing non corrupt in it at any level.
Nuclear measures in Russia may be hollow, but that is not the point. If enough of the people view it as a survivable endeavor that greatly affects the willingness of their people from top to bottom to engage in nuclear war. Nukes start popping it wont matter for even a millisecond here in the USA how bad the shelters are in Russia once live testing begins.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 07, 2022, 08:05:07 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 07, 2022, 07:21:57 AM
Their shelters may be made of plaster, and stocked with food that expired 30 years ago if their army is any indication.
Russian army forces have been found with 'trauma plates' in their body armor made of granite instead of silicon carbide and issued mres expired long ago.
In many cases the reactive armor on their tanks have been found to be empty boxes.
While Ukrainian corruption is nothing to sneeze at, Russians have had problems for a LONG time -- predating the fall of the USSR -- with corruption as well.
Ghostie, corruption is baked into Putin's russia. Have a peep at this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6yA7Ge0EmY&t=728s
The fact is corruption is a feature of the Russian system. If everyone is encouraged to be corrupt then anyone can be arrested, jailed or executed for corruption at any time.
If you think corruption and incompetence are a Putin thing, check this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1f47SC_A8&t=62s
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 07, 2022, 11:39:12 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 07, 2022, 08:05:07 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 07, 2022, 07:21:57 AM
Their shelters may be made of plaster, and stocked with food that expired 30 years ago if their army is any indication.
Russian army forces have been found with 'trauma plates' in their body armor made of granite instead of silicon carbide and issued mres expired long ago.
In many cases the reactive armor on their tanks have been found to be empty boxes.
While Ukrainian corruption is nothing to sneeze at, Russians have had problems for a LONG time -- predating the fall of the USSR -- with corruption as well.
Ghostie, corruption is baked into Putin's russia. Have a peep at this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6yA7Ge0EmY&t=728s
The fact is corruption is a feature of the Russian system. If everyone is encouraged to be corrupt then anyone can be arrested, jailed or executed for corruption at any time.
If you think corruption and incompetence are a Putin thing, check this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1f47SC_A8&t=62s
How to say you didn't read my post without actually saying it.
Really, dude, I literally fuckin' said: "Russians have had problems for a LONG time -- predating the fall of the USSR -- with corruption as well."
I read it, I wanted to help you grasp the scale of it which is to most people beyond belief. I mean, you look at it and it's off the fucking chart!!! I mean we think America has corruption, and it does, but good ghawd we're nowhere near the organized corruption Russia always has been at!!!
So you say Russia is corrput, and people think corrupt like America, England, etc, is. Oh noooooo! They're orders of magnitude more corrupt.
More pro-Russia propaganda:
Amnesty International UK
Press releases
Ukraine: military endangering civilians by locating forces in residential areas - new research
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
Quote from: Jaeger on August 04, 2022, 07:59:50 PM
More pro-Russia propaganda:
Amnesty International UK
Press releases
Ukraine: military endangering civilians by locating forces in residential areas - new research
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
Translation: Ukraine defends cities from Russian attacks instead of abandoning them. This results in Russians hitting those cities with artillery barrages. Somehow this is Ukraine's fault.
Quote from: Daztur on August 04, 2022, 08:37:27 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 04, 2022, 07:59:50 PM
More pro-Russia propaganda:
Amnesty International UK
Press releases
Ukraine: military endangering civilians by locating forces in residential areas - new research
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
Translation: Ukraine defends cities from Russian attacks instead of abandoning them. This results in Russians hitting those cities with artillery barrages. Somehow this is Ukraine's fault.
And with one article, Amnesty International became a "puppet" of the Kremlin...
Quote from: Daztur on August 04, 2022, 08:37:27 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 04, 2022, 07:59:50 PM
More pro-Russia propaganda:
Amnesty International UK
Press releases
Ukraine: military endangering civilians by locating forces in residential areas - new research
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
Translation: Ukraine defends cities from Russian attacks instead of abandoning them. This results in Russians hitting those cities with artillery barrages. Somehow this is Ukraine's fault.
Ukraine should've just let Russia run roughshod over them, as is proper.
(/sarc, obviously)
Quote from: Jaeger on August 05, 2022, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: Daztur on August 04, 2022, 08:37:27 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 04, 2022, 07:59:50 PM
More pro-Russia propaganda:
Amnesty International UK
Press releases
Ukraine: military endangering civilians by locating forces in residential areas - new research
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
Translation: Ukraine defends cities from Russian attacks instead of abandoning them. This results in Russians hitting those cities with artillery barrages. Somehow this is Ukraine's fault.
And with one article, Amnesty International became a "puppet" of the Kremlin...
Don't forget to add the Associated Press to your list of puppets. Their own reporters pretty much confirmed everything in Amnesty's report:
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-donetsk-amnesty-international-7eb46d7e7cd2205403f7bf45ad7122cc
Quote from: Jaeger on August 05, 2022, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: Daztur on August 04, 2022, 08:37:27 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 04, 2022, 07:59:50 PM
More pro-Russia propaganda:
Amnesty International UK
Press releases
Ukraine: military endangering civilians by locating forces in residential areas - new research
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
Translation: Ukraine defends cities from Russian attacks instead of abandoning them. This results in Russians hitting those cities with artillery barrages. Somehow this is Ukraine's fault.
And with one article, Amnesty International became a "puppet" of the Kremlin...
In other news a home owner recently encouraged violent theft by allowing themselves to be beaten up by a burglar breaking into their house.
::)
What AI doesn't understand is that Ukraine is damned if they do, but double-damned if they don't.
Yes, it's true that deploying in a city close to civilians will put them in harms way, but if they don't deploy in the city, the russians will shell civilians anyway (as they are already doing everywhere else) as well as leaving them defenseless against raping, murdering and kidnapping.
It is moronic to more or less accuse Ukraine to use civilians as human shields because that would assume russians care.
Speaking of puppets, where's Zelensky been lately? Haven't seen too much of him in the news recently. I suppose he's resting up from that positively exhausting Vogue fashion photo shoot. Good article. It reminded me of that time Churchill took a vacation from defending Britain to go down and model men's beachwear at El Alamein for the fashion season of '42.
Quote from: Jaeger on August 05, 2022, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: Daztur on August 04, 2022, 08:37:27 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 04, 2022, 07:59:50 PM
More pro-Russia propaganda:
Amnesty International UK
Press releases
Ukraine: military endangering civilians by locating forces in residential areas - new research
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
Translation: Ukraine defends cities from Russian attacks instead of abandoning them. This results in Russians hitting those cities with artillery barrages. Somehow this is Ukraine's fault.
And with one article, Amnesty International became a "puppet" of the Kremlin...
You don't have to be a puppet of the Kremlin to be an idiot. What the fuck were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Leave all urban areas completely undefended?
Quote from: Daztur on August 08, 2022, 12:41:46 AM
You don't have to be a puppet of the Kremlin to be an idiot. What the fuck were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Leave all urban areas completely undefended?
I dunno, maybe they could evacuate the civilian buildings around their defensive emplacements to give the people that they are ostensibly defending half a chance?
Just tossing that out there.
The fog of war and censorship is thick over the progress or disappointment of the Ukraine's ongoing counteroffensive toward Kherson. God willing, the Ukraine will prevail and the undermotivated Russians will flee or surrender, but Putin's mercenaries and Muslim soldiers might fight to the death out of desperation.
(Fun fact I learned: Kherson is not Cherson, the Byzantine name for Chersonesus which was an ancient Greek colony near Sevastopol, but is rather a creation of Catherine the Great and named after the ancient city.)
Quote from: Tallifer on September 01, 2022, 09:07:05 AM
(Fun fact I learned: Kherson is not Cherson, the Byzantine name for Chersonesus which was an ancient Greek colony near Sevastopol, but is rather a creation of Catherine the Great and named after the ancient city.)
So it does belong to Russian empire. Kitty wants it back.
Quote from: DocJones on September 02, 2022, 11:51:51 PM
Quote from: Tallifer on September 01, 2022, 09:07:05 AM
(Fun fact I learned: Kherson is not Cherson, the Byzantine name for Chersonesus which was an ancient Greek colony near Sevastopol, but is rather a creation of Catherine the Great and named after the ancient city.)
So it does belong to Russian empire. Kitty wants it back.
<laughs> By that reasoning, the entire east coast of America (except for Nieu Amsterdam) belongs to Britain. And all the cities founded by Alexander and named after himself belong to Greece. But Istanbul belongs neither to Greece nor Turkey but to Italy since it was founded by the Roman emperor Constantine.
Excellent analytical channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce5TR-qWCk4&ab_channel=Perun
My spirits have been lifted by the recent news from Ukraine. Who else is heartened by the successful Ukrainian counter-offensive to liberate the Kharkiv oblast?
Quote from: Tallifer on September 13, 2022, 10:09:11 AM
My spirits have been lifted by the recent news from Ukraine. Who else is heartened by the successful Ukrainian counter-offensive to liberate the Kharkiv oblast?
While I'm not the biggest fan of Ukraine due to the endemic corruption, it amuses me to watch the Russians get their teeth kicked in.
I'm in the same fan club. Putin seems concerned about eating a bullet lately and has curtailed some of his public appearances.
Quote from: Tallifer on September 13, 2022, 10:09:11 AM
My spirits have been lifted by the recent news from Ukraine. Who else is heartened by the successful Ukrainian counter-offensive to liberate the Kharkiv oblast?
It's definitely nice to see. And Russian media for once is admitting this was a defeat and meaningful.
Why do people want globohomo to win?
Quote from: DocJones on September 14, 2022, 03:58:07 PM
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 14, 2022, 02:58:21 PM
Why do people want globohomo to win?
Why don't they give a crap about the Tigray war?
I do. Tigray leaders called for peace talks without preconditions just a couple days ago. I am hopeful.
Has nothing to do with this topic though. Nor does it have anything to do with when I HATE THE DEMIURGE lost his ability to reason.
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 14, 2022, 02:58:21 PM
Why do people want globohomo to win?
I hope that a victorious Ukraine will become more like Poland and Hungary in the EU: the more socially traditional and religious countries within the EU, the better. Globohomo is a self-defeating pagan ideology. As totally depraved as mankind is (according to Calvin's terminology), he is not as disgusting and self-loathing as that.
P.S. I also hope that the EU will have to give Poland more freedom to defend its Christian culture since she has helped this war effort so much.
Except that obviously won't happen. NATO invested too much money into Ukraine to let them run free. They're going to be nice little stooges for them. Remember how despite the fact that the country was at war, they still had a Pride parade? Yeah. It'll be like that, but worse.
I'm a bit baffled here.
One side, as it's retreating, is leaving behind mass graves at almost every town they relinquish. The other is holding Gay Pride Parades.
Are there really some people who have trouble telling who the villains are here?
Edit: spelling
The Russian government is indeed villainous for invading the Ukraine since 2014 and for condoning innumerable atrocities against civilians, but that does not mean we should wish for the Ukraine to lose her traditional culture and Christian identity after she wins the war.
I do admit that a Marshall Pan for the Ukraine will sadly come with many strings attached. Hopefully, the Ukrainian geopolitical position on the border of a revanchist Russia will count more for Western statesmen than the opinions of academics and fringe interest groups.
Quote from: Tallifer on September 16, 2022, 08:05:22 AM
The Russian government is indeed villainous for invading the Ukraine since 2014 and for condoning innumerable atrocities against civilians, but that does not mean we should wish for the Ukraine to lose her traditional culture and Christian identity after she wins the war.
I do admit that a Marshall Pan for the Ukraine will sadly come with many strings attached. Hopefully, the Ukrainian geopolitical position on the border of a revanchist Russia will count more for Western statesmen than the opinions of academics and fringe interest groups.
Under no circumstances does the U.S. need to pour any more cash into Ukraine. No.
If Europe wants to handle it, fine, the E.U. can foot the bill.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 16, 2022, 08:32:41 AM
Quote from: Tallifer on September 16, 2022, 08:05:22 AM
The Russian government is indeed villainous for invading the Ukraine since 2014 and for condoning innumerable atrocities against civilians, but that does not mean we should wish for the Ukraine to lose her traditional culture and Christian identity after she wins the war.
I do admit that a Marshall Pan for the Ukraine will sadly come with many strings attached. Hopefully, the Ukrainian geopolitical position on the border of a revanchist Russia will count more for Western statesmen than the opinions of academics and fringe interest groups.
Under no circumstances does the U.S. need to pour any more cash into Ukraine. No.
If Europe wants to handle it, fine, the E.U. can foot the bill.
Unless we plan to put a military base there.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on September 15, 2022, 09:57:30 PM
I'm a bit baffled here.
One side, as it's retreating, is leaving behind mass graves at almost every town they relinquish. The other is holding Gay Pride Parades.
Are there really some people who have trouble telling who the villains are here?
Edit: spelling
There's a segment of conservatives who are quite contrarian. Since it's mainstream to support Ukraine, the contrarian conservative will decide that a gay pride parade or fluffy propaganda outweighs the fact that Ukrainians are defending their homeland against an invader that has ruled, oppressed, and murdered them before.
A) You've got concrete proof of those mass graves? I've seen the media talk about finding mass graves. I don't trust the media because the media has a tendency to lie.
B) Pride is worse than mass graves, yes. Ideas are more dangerous than bullets. You can run out of bullets, but if your idea is disseminated enough, it becomes self-supporting. And homosexuals do a lot more damage to society than mass murder.
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 16, 2022, 10:36:08 AM
A) You've got concrete proof of those mass graves? I've seen the media talk about finding mass graves. I don't trust the media because the media has a tendency to lie.
B) Pride is worse than mass graves, yes. Ideas are more dangerous than bullets. You can run out of bullets, but if your idea is disseminated enough, it becomes self-supporting. And homosexuals do a lot more damage to society than mass murder.
How Stalinesque.
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 16, 2022, 10:36:08 AM
A) You've got concrete proof of those mass graves? I've seen the media talk about finding mass graves. I don't trust the media because the media has a tendency to lie.
B) Pride is worse than mass graves, yes. Ideas are more dangerous than bullets. You can run out of bullets, but if your idea is disseminated enough, it becomes self-supporting. And homosexuals do a lot more damage to society than mass murder.
Could you please explain why gays do more damage to society than mass murders do?
Don't feed the troll. By zher logic, zhe'd rather see zher own son die than catch the gay.
Quote from: rytrasmi on September 16, 2022, 10:56:23 AM
Don't feed the troll. By zher logic, zhe'd rather see zher own son die than catch the gay.
Curiosity killed the cat,
But satisfaction brought it back!
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on September 15, 2022, 09:57:30 PM
I'm a bit baffled here.
One side, as it's retreating, is leaving behind mass graves at almost every town they relinquish. The other is holding Gay Pride Parades.
Are there really some people who have trouble telling who the villains are here?
Edit: spelling
The mass graves I've seen photos of are graves marked with crosses with numbers written on them.
Apparently they contain both civilians and soldiers killed in the conflict.
Should the combatants leave the dead lying on the ground to rot or bury them?
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 16, 2022, 10:36:08 AM
A) You've got concrete proof of those mass graves? I've seen the media talk about finding mass graves. I don't trust the media because the media has a tendency to lie.
This is a ludicrous argument unless you can define what evidence could look like which you wouldn't dismiss short of flying you personally to Ukraine to show you a mass grave. Which, let's face it, you'd probably still say, "That could have been done by Ukrainians."
But I will give you a chance. You tell me what kind of evidence would be sufficient for you to even consider the possibility they are mass graves committed by Russian troops.
Quote from: DocJones on September 16, 2022, 01:22:33 PM
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on September 15, 2022, 09:57:30 PM
I'm a bit baffled here.
One side, as it's retreating, is leaving behind mass graves at almost every town they relinquish. The other is holding Gay Pride Parades.
Are there really some people who have trouble telling who the villains are here?
Edit: spelling
The mass graves I've seen photos of are graves marked with crosses with numbers written on them.
Apparently they contain both civilians and soldiers killed in the conflict.
Should the combatants leave the dead lying on the ground to rot or bury them?
Witnesses report mass executions, including some who escaped from those mass executions. Many of the corpses had their hands tied behind their backs. Some also hand ropes around their necks. Many showed signs of torture.
1) Why do gays do more damage to society? I mean, you can write books and books on the topic. To put it briefly - they erode the civic virtue of society. When you don't have civic virtue, you don't have a society. No, I will not bother justifying this statement - look up the definition of "civic virtue" and then go read "After the Ball" https://archive.org/details/afterballhowamer00kirkrich (https://archive.org/details/afterballhowamer00kirkrich) and you will see how homosexuality and civic virtue are incompatible.
2) I'm a Jew from the former USSR. I literally have relatives and friends on opposite sides of the conflict. The notion of an American trying to lecture me on a conflict that they have 0 emotional investment in is ludicrous.
3) Yes, photographs and footage of "mass graves" and "mass execution" sites are unconvincing. If you trust the media - ANY media, with 0 exception - you are a gullible idiot and I am interested in selling you shares of the Brooklyn Bridge.
All right troll face, I'll bite.
1. The Holomodor was not even a century ago and you're wanking on about "civic virtue"? Get a grip.
2. Who are you talking to? You assume everyone here is American. Idiot.
3. Anything can be faked, including evidence that supports your opinion.
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 16, 2022, 04:42:26 PM
1) Why do gays do more damage to society? I mean, you can write books and books on the topic. To put it briefly - they erode the civic virtue of society. When you don't have civic virtue, you don't have a society. No, I will not bother justifying this statement - look up the definition of "civic virtue" and then go read "After the Ball" https://archive.org/details/afterballhowamer00kirkrich (https://archive.org/details/afterballhowamer00kirkrich) and you will see how homosexuality and civic virtue are incompatible.
So you can't explain yourself succinctly enough to do so in a forum post and you refuse to justify your own statement that homosexuals do more damage to a society than mass murderers do.
So you got nothing.
Quote from: rytrasmi on September 16, 2022, 05:11:49 PM
All right troll face, I'll bite.
1. The Holomodor was not even a century ago and you're wanking on about "civic virtue"? Get a grip.
2. Who are you talking to? You assume everyone here is American. Idiot.
3. Anything can be faked, including evidence that supports your opinion.
What does the Holodomor have to do with civic virtue?
Yes, I do assume everyone I talk to is an American. Because y'know, heuristics. But even if you aren't American, unless you're from the ex-USSR, your opinion isn't worth much.
Yes, exactly. I trust literally nothing.
Cogito ergo sum, and all that, only there isn't a benevolent deity to help you out of that one. But we have verifiable proof that the media has outright lied multiple times.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 16, 2022, 05:44:11 PM
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 16, 2022, 04:42:26 PM
snop
So you can't explain yourself succinctly enough to do so in a forum post and you refuse to justify your own statement that homosexuals do more damage to a society than mass murderers do.
So you got nothing.
Read the book - it's not a long read - and it'll answer your question. Homosexuals do way more damage than mass murderers, because the presence of homosexual damages ALL of society. A mass murderer will eventually run out of bullets or what have you, but a homosexual - or any sort of sexual deviant that demands that society bend towards their whim - will keep damaging society even past their death.
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 16, 2022, 04:42:26 PM
1) Why do gays do more damage to society? I mean, you can write books and books on the topic. To put it briefly - they erode the civic virtue of society.
Because "Invading nations, committing mass executions of civilians in mass graves, torturing people, and blowing up everything in your path" doesn't erode "civic virtue of a society" as much as gay pride parades?
This is pathetic even for your trolling. I mean, would Stalin have been considered the good guy as long as he was stopping gays? Pol Pot just peachy keen as long as he is stopping the gays?
Quote3) Yes, photographs and footage of "mass graves" and "mass execution" sites are unconvincing. If you trust the media - ANY media, with 0 exception - you are a gullible idiot and I am interested in selling you shares of the Brooklyn Bridge.
I will ask again: this is a legit response ONLY if you can state what evidence would be acceptable to you to prove the mass graves and executions are real. If you can't, then you're just saying meaningless shit.
First it was measuring skulls to determine humanity/guilt.
Now it's a portmanteau mainly used by the ACTUAL Far-Right.
Bet the troll will also claim zhe doesn't really believe this and that "It was just a prank dude!".
Quote from: Mistwell on September 16, 2022, 02:09:23 PM
Quote from: DocJones on September 16, 2022, 01:22:33 PM
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on September 15, 2022, 09:57:30 PM
I'm a bit baffled here.
One side, as it's retreating, is leaving behind mass graves at almost every town they relinquish. The other is holding Gay Pride Parades.
Are there really some people who have trouble telling who the villains are here?
Edit: spelling
The mass graves I've seen photos of are graves marked with crosses with numbers written on them.
Apparently they contain both civilians and soldiers killed in the conflict.
Should the combatants leave the dead lying on the ground to rot or bury them?
Witnesses report mass executions, including some who escaped from those mass executions. Many of the corpses had their hands tied behind their backs. Some also hand ropes around their necks. Many showed signs of torture.
In 1914 people a huge mass of people agreed that Russian soldiers were landing in England. People talked about trains they saw full of Russian soldiers, Russians who they witnessed marching down streets, or soldiers loitering about lighting cigars and singing songs. It never happened.
https://sci-hub.se/10.2752/147800414X13802176314528
We live in a world where governments can and do lie every single day. They're lying about Covid right now. They're lying about the January 6th civic demonstration right now. They can easily stage an event, put someone in a costume, pay an actor for a performance, or create a video from scratch depicting something that never happened.
I don't know why you would trust anything either side says about this conflict. Blindly believing accusations based on one side's propaganda is foolish and irrational.
Quote from: Zelen on September 16, 2022, 09:34:24 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 16, 2022, 02:09:23 PM
Quote from: DocJones on September 16, 2022, 01:22:33 PM
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on September 15, 2022, 09:57:30 PM
I'm a bit baffled here.
One side, as it's retreating, is leaving behind mass graves at almost every town they relinquish. The other is holding Gay Pride Parades.
Are there really some people who have trouble telling who the villains are here?
Edit: spelling
The mass graves I've seen photos of are graves marked with crosses with numbers written on them.
Apparently they contain both civilians and soldiers killed in the conflict.
Should the combatants leave the dead lying on the ground to rot or bury them?
Witnesses report mass executions, including some who escaped from those mass executions. Many of the corpses had their hands tied behind their backs. Some also hand ropes around their necks. Many showed signs of torture.
In 1914 people a huge mass of people agreed that Russian soldiers were landing in England. People talked about trains they saw full of Russian soldiers, Russians who they witnessed marching down streets, or soldiers loitering about lighting cigars and singing songs. It never happened.
https://sci-hub.se/10.2752/147800414X13802176314528
We live in a world where governments can and do lie every single day. They can easily stage an event, put someone in a costume, pay an actor for a performance, or create a video from scratch depicting something that never happened.
I don't know why you would trust anything either side says about this conflict. Blindly believing accusations based on one side's propaganda is foolish and irrational.
What evidence would you accept? I mean, this is such a cowardly cop out dismissal. It's a convenient way for you to justify any position, much like holocaust deniers. Unless you can state clearly the type of evidence you would accept, it's just garbage.
Quote from: Mistwell on September 16, 2022, 09:36:45 PM
What evidence would you accept? I mean, this is such a cowardly cop out dismissal. It's a convenient way for you to justify any position. Unless you can state clearly the type of evidence you would accept, it's just garbage.
I mean, does my opinion on the conflict matter at all?
I'm just taking a rational disinterest in the subject matter because I recognize that the US is lying, Russia is lying, Ukraine especially has been brazenly lying in ways that even its allies acknowledged was dangerous and could've provoked nuclear escalation.
The only way I could get legitimate information about it is to either go there myself, or for people who I know and trust to go there. That's not going to happen, so I accept that I don't know what I don't know and move on.
Quote from: Zelen on September 16, 2022, 09:41:49 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 16, 2022, 09:36:45 PM
What evidence would you accept? I mean, this is such a cowardly cop out dismissal. It's a convenient way for you to justify any position. Unless you can state clearly the type of evidence you would accept, it's just garbage.
I mean, does my opinion on the conflict matter at all?
I'm just taking a rational disinterest in the subject matter because I recognize that the US is lying, Russia is lying, Ukraine especially has been brazenly lying in ways that even its allies acknowledged was dangerous and could've provoked nuclear escalation.
The only way I could get legitimate information about it is to either go there myself, or for people who I know and trust to go there. That's not going to happen, so I accept that I don't know what I don't know and move on.
How is your approach meaningfully different than the approach holocaust deniers use to deny the holocaust happened?
I mean, this is the same thing Russia did in Chechnya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_graves_in_Chechnya). Why do you think they've changed?
Quote from: Mistwell on September 16, 2022, 09:43:03 PM
How is your approach meaningfully different than the approach holocaust deniers ...
If you can't engage in a good faith discussion then
Shut the fuck up.
Quote from: Zelen on September 16, 2022, 09:51:36 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 16, 2022, 09:43:03 PM
How is your approach meaningfully different than the approach holocaust deniers ...
If you can't engage in a good faith discussion then
Shut the fuck up.
It's totally good faith. Your approach is literally identical to the approach abhorrent people use to do horrible things. You're legitimizing saying, "there can be no proof of atrocities." You want to chose the deniers of the killing fields instead because you have feefees about the holocaust then have at it - same strategy they use. Stalinists use the same strategy too. Claiming "Atrocities don't happen because you cannot believe anyone outside my group to report they happened" is a greenlight to atrocities. That's exactly how this shit happens.
So yes buttercup, tell us acceptable proof that atrocities happen in your book. Otherwise you're just another piece of shit providing cover for the horrors of the world.
Cool, enjoy the block.
Quote from: Mistwell on September 16, 2022, 09:43:03 PM
How is your approach meaningfully different than the approach holocaust deniers use to deny the holocaust happened?
Not a fair comparison at all.
Thousands of American soldiers liberated camps, took hundreds of photos, and interviewed hundreds of Jewish prisoners.
Not to mention, the Germans directly involved were proud enough to maintain meticulous records.
(https://europeanworldwar.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/112247871/ebensee-survivors-p_orig.jpeg)
I'm quite sure that war crimes have been committed by both sides. However expressing a great deal of skepticism concerning claims in press releases by Ukrainian and Russian authorities to the denial of overwhelming evidence of the holocaust is farcical.
Quote from: DocJones on September 16, 2022, 10:46:59 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 16, 2022, 09:43:03 PM
How is your approach meaningfully different than the approach holocaust deniers use to deny the holocaust happened?
Not a fair comparison at all.
Thousands of American soldiers liberated camps, took hundreds of photos, and interviewed hundreds of Jewish prisoners.
Totally fair comparison. He's saying unless he personally witnesses it, or some member of his immediate circle, then it didn't happen. So he'd say that's not enough evidence. And I gave him a bunch of opportunities to set even a more conservative standard than what you just outlined, and he wouldn't. He's pretty clear there can be proving no atrocities because "everyone I don't know lies."
QuoteI'm quite sure that war crimes have been committed by both sides. However expressing a great deal of skepticism concerning claims in press releases by Ukrainian and Russian authorities to the denial of overwhelming evidence of the holocaust is farcical.
I didn't say doubting the media is unfair. I said fine, then name what kind of evidence would be enough. And he won't. He's pretty damn clear on that point - there is no evidence he would trust outside himself and his immediate circle of people he knows and already trusts.
Which is the standard used by deniers of any atrocities throughout history. Just call everyone lying and untrustworthy who claims it happened, make sure you're never in a position to verify it yourself, and there you go - a total denial it happened.
If your response to "the government and media have lied and false-flagged before" is to bring up "but the Holocaust is real!" then you're a retard. First off, I have family members who survived the Treblinka and lost friends. (Admittedly, I also had family members that didn't survive the basements of the Big House.) And as a Jew, I am FAR more concerned about the fact that the media is very likely manufacturing falsehoods to justify "retaliation." Just like how it manufactured the WMDs in Iraq, for instance.
But as far as the other points, the Stalin argument? Well, I dunno. Again, unlike you, I had and have family members who lived in the USSR. Yeah they're a bit fucked in the head. But the USSR had a TON of civic virtue. In fact, it was the only reason it managed to survive long enough - because its citizens were willing to put the ideals of the USSR over their personal gratification. So yes, Stalin did more to engender civic virtue than the homosexuals.
Do you even know what civic virtue is?
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 16, 2022, 11:30:27 PM
If your response to "the government and media have lied and false-flagged before" is to bring up "but the Holocaust is real!" then you're a retard. First off, I have family members who survived the Treblinka and lost friends. (Admittedly, I also had family members that didn't survive the basements of the Big House.) And as a Jew, I am FAR more concerned about the fact that the media is very likely manufacturing falsehoods to justify "retaliation." Just like how it manufactured the WMDs in Iraq, for instance.
But as far as the other points, the Stalin argument? Well, I dunno. Again, unlike you, I had and have family members who lived in the USSR. Yeah they're a bit fucked in the head. But the USSR had a TON of civic virtue. In fact, it was the only reason it managed to survive long enough - because its citizens were willing to put the ideals of the USSR over their personal gratification. So yes, Stalin did more to engender civic virtue than the homosexuals.
Do you even know what civic virtue is?
What evidence would you accept that atrocities did and are occurring in Ukraine, if not media based ones?
Either my own two eyes, a family member, or a friend (in the Eastern European sense of the word, not the American one). People whom I trust implicitly and explicitly, because they are either blood, or the next best thing. Anybody else has an agenda and will distort the truth to fit their agenda/narrative.
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 17, 2022, 12:32:44 PM
Either my own two eyes, a family member, or a friend (in the Eastern European sense of the word, not the American one). People whom I trust implicitly and explicitly, because they are either blood, or the next best thing. Anybody else has an agenda and will distort the truth to fit their agenda/narrative.
OK so, hypothetically, if you were alive during Stalinist Russia and news reports came out about mass purges and starvation, terror campaigns and gulags, but you had no personal friend who witnessed it...would you just dismiss reports about it? Those reports did in fact have agendas (the US wanted Stalin's reign to end and reporters clearly had an agenda to end him) but they were also correct reports and those things were happening, despite an agenda against Stalin from the West.
I'm assuming you mean "alive and NOT in Stalinist Russia?" In that case, no. I wouldn't believe them.
But can you conclusively, without-a-doubt prove that the GULAGs existed?
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 18, 2022, 10:57:41 AM
I'm assuming you mean "alive and NOT in Stalinist Russia?" In that case, no. I wouldn't believe them.
But can you conclusively, without-a-doubt prove that the GULAGs existed?
Yes I have zero doubt gulags existed. Soviet records were declassified in modern times proving they absolutely existed with extensive reports.
You're admitting you would not believe something existed which you know in retrospect did exist. Doesn't that lead you to conclude you need a better standard for belief than mere "my own personal experience or the experience of a close personal confidant?" I mean, are you really such a coward that you're unwilling to take ANY risks in beliefs?
Because I don't believe that's your standard. I've seen you take positions on topics you don't have that level of personal experience with, like in the Biden Failure thread. I think it's convenient for you to not believe on this one because it interferes with your political position.
Well hold on there, don't leave the white room yet. You need to prove to me, in our hypothetical example, that the GULAGs actually exist.
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 18, 2022, 05:52:12 PM
Well hold on there, don't leave the white room yet. You need to prove to me, in our hypothetical example, that the GULAGs actually exist.
What part of "Soviet records were declassified in modern times proving they absolutely existed with extensive reports," was unclear? Russia admits it did happen. They have extremely extensive reports, sometimes daily, from the Soviet agents in charge, reporting on activities in those Gulags. They have the written orders to open them and run them and maintain them and even budget records. They have photographic evidence, and eyewitness testimony. NOBODY is denying they existed anymore. Yes, that's 100% proof. Even insane people like yourself do not deny they existed anymore. It's as much proof as humanity can have for such events having taken place.
Okay, given your assumption that we are in the USA in 1937, you wouldn't have any concrete evidence that says "The USSR has the GULAG system?"
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 19, 2022, 10:05:19 AM
Okay, given your assumption that we are in the USA in 1937, you wouldn't have any concrete evidence that says "The USSR has the GULAG system?"
Which is why I am saying given you know there are situations in history where the mass preponderance of evidence says X is happening, even when you don't have a perfect level of proof, sometimes you have to take the relatively minor risk to act as if X is happening. Otherwise you will be agnostic and neutral in all things - which you're not. We've all seen you right here on this message board take positions and assume facts which you don't have 100% proof for, so why is this one a hitch in your ability to draw conclusions from the evidence we have?
Take for example these gems from you:
"I'm in NYC and we had a massive fucking blackout because there was a chokepoint failure point." Your "proof" the cause of the blackout was a chokepoint failure point? Based on media reports, not personal proof. But those media reports you accept for...reasons?
"And yet, people are FAR more outraged over the 20k loan forgiveness per student, totaling under $600 billion, rather than the multiple trillions of bailouts given to corporate pedophiles." Your proof "multiple trillions" of bailout went to "corporate pedophile?" WAY way less than the Ukraine reports, almost entirely from anonymous sources which have been shown to have been repeatedly wrong on major topics.
"You know when the pedophiles working in Wall St tanked the US economy?" Your proof is again what, some Q shit?
"the pedophile politicians gave 16 trillion to Wall St when they fucked up, because the banks were too big to fail." Proof the politicians who gave the bailout were pedophiles? More Q shit.
We could go on. Your post history is fully of you making assumptions based on thin or zero evidence - levels of evidence far less well supported than what's coming out of Ukraine. So why the sudden "You need 100% proof to believe anything" standard when it's apparently "You need a mere scintilla of evidence which matches my world view" for so many other topics for you?
OMG. I was out walking in Virginia and came upon some mass graves.
(https://washington-org.s3.amazonaws.com/arlingtoncemetery-2.jpg)
What happened here?! How is it different than these?
(https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2022-09-16/Ukraine-Mass-grave-in-Izyum-UN-asks-Russia-to-leave-nuclear-plant-1dnkPG3OhVe/img/e68d7b2e1ede44deabe704a45b4b022f/e68d7b2e1ede44deabe704a45b4b022f.jpeg)
Quote from: DocJones on September 19, 2022, 03:58:12 PM
OMG. I was out walking in Virginia and came upon some mass graves.
(https://washington-org.s3.amazonaws.com/arlingtoncemetery-2.jpg)
What happened here?! How is it different than these?
(https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2022-09-16/Ukraine-Mass-grave-in-Izyum-UN-asks-Russia-to-leave-nuclear-plant-1dnkPG3OhVe/img/e68d7b2e1ede44deabe704a45b4b022f/e68d7b2e1ede44deabe704a45b4b022f.jpeg)
Once again: because they found civilians with their hands tied behind their backs, ropes around some necks, and execution wounds on them.
But I guess keep spinning atrocities for...reasons? It makes you look awesome to deny torture and murder.
Quote from: Mistwell on September 19, 2022, 03:31:08 PM
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 19, 2022, 10:05:19 AM
Okay, given your assumption that we are in the USA in 1937, you wouldn't have any concrete evidence that says "The USSR has the GULAG system?"
Which is why I am saying given you know there are situations in history where the mass preponderance of evidence says X is happening, even when you don't have a perfect level of proof, sometimes you have to take the relatively minor risk to act as if X is happening. Otherwise you will be agnostic and neutral in all things - which you're not. We've all seen you right here on this message board take positions and assume facts which you don't have 100% proof for, so why is this one a hitch in your ability to draw conclusions from the evidence we have?
Take for example these gems from you:
"I'm in NYC and we had a massive fucking blackout because there was a chokepoint failure point." Your "proof" the cause of the blackout was a chokepoint failure point? Based on media reports, not personal proof. But those media reports you accept for...reasons?
"And yet, people are FAR more outraged over the 20k loan forgiveness per student, totaling under $600 billion, rather than the multiple trillions of bailouts given to corporate pedophiles." Your proof "multiple trillions" of bailout went to "corporate pedophile?" WAY way less than the Ukraine reports, almost entirely from anonymous sources which have been shown to have been repeatedly wrong on major topics.
"You know when the pedophiles working in Wall St tanked the US economy?" Your proof is again what, some Q shit?
"the pedophile politicians gave 16 trillion to Wall St when they fucked up, because the banks were too big to fail." Proof the politicians who gave the bailout were pedophiles? More Q shit.
We could go on. Your post history is fully of you making assumptions based on thin or zero evidence - levels of evidence far less well supported than what's coming out of Ukraine. So why the sudden "You need 100% proof to believe anything" standard when it's apparently "You need a mere scintilla of evidence which matches my world view" for so many other topics for you?
>chokepoint failure point
I worked for Con Edison at the time and have several relatives and family friends working for them.
>multiple trillions
Worked on Wall St. during OWS and the financial crisis, working for a minor (but still global) lending partner in IT. So yes, I had access to the books.
>pedophiles
:^)
So yeah, all of my claims are based on personal knowledge or knowledge of blood or knowledge of family. I can reference other sources, but only for theory, not for "this actually happened" because I do not believe them either.
Oh and also, don't say "they found blah blah hands behind their backs." The state-controlled media says that they did. Whether they really did or not, well, you have no proof. I remember the Ghost of Kiev. Or when the maternity ward was "bombed" how there was a bucket of red paint near one of the doors smeared with blood.
Also, you're looking at my post history? Creepy, dude. Pic related.
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 19, 2022, 05:58:59 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 19, 2022, 03:31:08 PM
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 19, 2022, 10:05:19 AM
Okay, given your assumption that we are in the USA in 1937, you wouldn't have any concrete evidence that says "The USSR has the GULAG system?"
Which is why I am saying given you know there are situations in history where the mass preponderance of evidence says X is happening, even when you don't have a perfect level of proof, sometimes you have to take the relatively minor risk to act as if X is happening. Otherwise you will be agnostic and neutral in all things - which you're not. We've all seen you right here on this message board take positions and assume facts which you don't have 100% proof for, so why is this one a hitch in your ability to draw conclusions from the evidence we have?
Take for example these gems from you:
"I'm in NYC and we had a massive fucking blackout because there was a chokepoint failure point." Your "proof" the cause of the blackout was a chokepoint failure point? Based on media reports, not personal proof. But those media reports you accept for...reasons?
"And yet, people are FAR more outraged over the 20k loan forgiveness per student, totaling under $600 billion, rather than the multiple trillions of bailouts given to corporate pedophiles." Your proof "multiple trillions" of bailout went to "corporate pedophile?" WAY way less than the Ukraine reports, almost entirely from anonymous sources which have been shown to have been repeatedly wrong on major topics.
"You know when the pedophiles working in Wall St tanked the US economy?" Your proof is again what, some Q shit?
"the pedophile politicians gave 16 trillion to Wall St when they fucked up, because the banks were too big to fail." Proof the politicians who gave the bailout were pedophiles? More Q shit.
We could go on. Your post history is fully of you making assumptions based on thin or zero evidence - levels of evidence far less well supported than what's coming out of Ukraine. So why the sudden "You need 100% proof to believe anything" standard when it's apparently "You need a mere scintilla of evidence which matches my world view" for so many other topics for you?
>chokepoint failure point
I worked for Con Edison at the time and have several relatives and family friends working for them.
>multiple trillions
Worked on Wall St. during OWS and the financial crisis, working for a minor (but still global) lending partner in IT. So yes, I had access to the books.
>pedophiles
:^)
So yeah, all of my claims are based on personal knowledge or knowledge of blood or knowledge of family. I can reference other sources, but only for theory, not for "this actually happened" because I do not believe them either.
Oh and also, don't say "they found blah blah hands behind their backs." The state-controlled media says that they did. Whether they really did or not, well, you have no proof. I remember the Ghost of Kiev. Or when the maternity ward was "bombed" how there was a bucket of red paint near one of the doors smeared with blood.
Also, you're looking at my post history? Creepy, dude. Pic related.
You're hand waiving "pedophiles" in all that? Even though that was more than half of what you're responding to?
Yeah dude, you accepting and regurgitating Qanon pedophiles bullshit is relevant to whether you hold yourself to a standard of proof or not about world events.
I'm not about to incriminate myself. I will vaguely say that I know people who were a little too young and foolhardy and got mixed up in shit that they shouldn't have been mixed up in and those people have very deep pockets and very interesting connections.
Quote from: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on September 19, 2022, 10:26:43 PM
I'm not about to incriminate myself. I will vaguely say that I know people who were a little too young and foolhardy and got mixed up in shit that they shouldn't have been mixed up in and those people have very deep pockets and very interesting connections.
That is not sufficient evidence to prove the claims you're making.
Slava Ukraina!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeiqpFZWIAECQWy.png)
Thanks for the laugh, I needed that this morning.
Just started reading this inspiring memoir by Zelensky's recent press secretary, "The Fight of Our Lives: My Time with Zelensky." (I am also currently reading a 1950s biography of Sir John A. MacDonald the first prime minister of the Dominion of Canada, another hero who envisioned a nation.)
https://www.amazon.com/Fight-Our-Lives-Zelenskyy-Democracy/dp/1668012715