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Author Topic: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.  (Read 100858 times)

I

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #915 on: July 05, 2022, 06:56:56 PM »
That Zelensky doesn't take orders as well as his U.S. masters would like -- and they are frustrated with him for that -- doesn't mean that they didn't install him.  We know that they did; it's not a conspiracy theory, but fact.

Well the case is that there are allot of fingers in this soup. I wish Ukraine was better prepared, and had better leadership and a more active population. But its not. And thats the reality that people living there just have to deal with. Do the people living there deserve to live in fear (or just die in fear) of Russian bombs because Putins lust for control, was understimated?

And the current reality is of bombs being lobbed on mass against people who didn't even have anything to do with the separatist question in the first place. And the separatists are also being funded by Russia as well, so there is absolutely no 'good' players (if there ever could be ones) in this equation.

The way people talk about this, its as if like China invaded Calefornia, well then its all OK, since both China and the USA are both corrupt, and some of Calefornia wanted to join China anyway.

And this is all just stupid time and life wasting between two countries with some of the lowest birthrates in Europe!

I agree it's all a stupid waste, and things should have been settled through negotiation.  Of course the civilians don't deserve to suffer.  Do you feel sorry for all  the Serbian civilians that NATO killed?   Russians did and asked us to stop; we told them to get stuffed.   So why should they listen to us?  I don't think the war is "OK," I just think America ought to stay out of it, especially since it's not clear to me that the side we are taking is any better than the other, for reasons I have already stated. 

Poland, Hungary, the Baltic states -- all of these have reason to dislike and fear Russia.  Let them enter the war on Ukraine's side, then.   Leave America out of it.  Not our fight.  Russia is not the USSR.  It has a GDP about the size of Italy's, and the EU GDP is eight times larger than Russia's.  The EU is militarily weak out of choice, not necessity.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #916 on: July 05, 2022, 10:03:06 PM »
I agree it's all a stupid waste, and things should have been settled through negotiation.

'I don't acknowledge your state existing, and have taken chunks of it before.'
'OK, sure thing, we will give it all over in the most convenient way so that oil and grain prices are not affected in the United States.'

Is the only thing that would not have led to war. When the Russian top brass see the collapse of the USSR as a big mistake and Ukraine as 'Not a real state', then everything else was just shadow puppets.

Just laying out my cards on the table: Im a Ukrainian American. Lived 1/2 of my life there and I have immediate family there. My nearly 90 year old great aunt was a block away from where a long distance missile levelled a apartment a few months ago. She lived through WWII and lost her father in the conflict.

But before this invasion - I was actually pro-Russia in all of this. Ukraine was a collapsing house of cards. Corruption, lack of unity, evil politicians and a un-patriotic citizenry got me thinking that Russia would more or less have Ukraine join it within 30 or so years, western involvement or not (unless the west really planned to up the amount of carrots given).

2 days before the invasion date, I was absolutely sure it would not happen because Russia got everything it wanted and a get out of jail free card. The days of invasions where over. Was Russia gonna wage a destructive land war over the things it wants to conquer? Phah, that was in the past. And while Putin was an asshole, he was a forward thinking person who wasn't a child who would not be provoked into a economically suicidal war because somebody called him a doody head.

Quote
Do you feel sorry for all  the Serbian civilians that NATO killed?

Yes. I also feel bad for all the Russian soldiers who die on shitty order for the glory of their leader.
I don't know what the greater NATO operations in the territory was.

I thought I was a cynical person. This war told me I was niave. The reality is that the world is still filled with the same people that would risk everything and smash things if the United States didn't have a gun pointed too their heads (for its own benefit largely, but this world order does have fringe benefits for allot of others). If you want a basic economic thing: because a large segment of the worlds grain and neon is produced in Ukraine. This disrupts supply and trade everywhere, and if Russia won it over, it would be invigorated to attack other places.

Battlemaster
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #917 on: July 06, 2022, 04:47:40 PM »
JooC, does anyone else think its possible pooty might, just might, use nukes if enough nations united against him?

Even if he is evil enough to decide to pulk a stunt like that, is there a chance his inner circle might finally do a von stauffenberg on him?
Fuck the fascist right and the fascist left.

zircher

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #918 on: July 06, 2022, 04:50:23 PM »
One can only hope that some of those generals value their men more than they do Putin.
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moonsweeper

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #919 on: July 06, 2022, 06:29:28 PM »
JooC, does anyone else think its possible pooty might, just might, use nukes if enough nations united against him?

Even if he is evil enough to decide to pulk a stunt like that, is there a chance his inner circle might finally do a von stauffenberg on him?


Answer to the first question is 'No, unless someone else launches first.'...doing some research on his training, education, and background will tell you how he thinks and the general outcome of the conflict is going where he wants. There is also the fact that international support against him isn't there.

That technically makes the second question irrelevant but some observations can be made. Putin is 'generally' liked in Russia. More importantly, regarding a direct threat, the most likely people to try and replace him (whatever the manner) are the hardliner types who are much more dangerous.  They will react in a much more emotional manner, while Putin is more cold and calculating.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 06:31:11 PM by moonsweeper »
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oggsmash

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #920 on: July 06, 2022, 06:46:06 PM »
  The USA considers nuclear war a mutual assured destruction situation (well or so its elite say, despite having many bunkers well stocked to survive it) while Soviet and Russian doctrine is it is winnable and survivable (they have alot more shelters, how well they would actually work out under the big test, I have no idea) so I am not so sure russians view nuclear war exactly as the USA does (at least the public view of both populations).

Battlemaster
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #921 on: July 07, 2022, 07:21:57 AM »
Their shelters may be made of plaster, and stocked with food that expired 30 years ago if their army is any indication.

Russian army forces have been found with 'trauma plates' in their body armor made of granite instead of silicon carbide and issued mres expired  long ago.

In many cases the reactive armor on their tanks have been found to be empty boxes.
Fuck the fascist right and the fascist left.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #922 on: July 07, 2022, 08:05:07 AM »
Their shelters may be made of plaster, and stocked with food that expired 30 years ago if their army is any indication.

Russian army forces have been found with 'trauma plates' in their body armor made of granite instead of silicon carbide and issued mres expired  long ago.

In many cases the reactive armor on their tanks have been found to be empty boxes.
While Ukrainian corruption is nothing to sneeze at, Russians have had problems for a LONG time -- predating the fall of the USSR -- with corruption as well.


Battlemaster
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #923 on: July 07, 2022, 08:15:37 AM »
Corruption is the default mode in eastern europe, it is SOP. Russia is an organized crime syndicate, there is nothing non corrupt in it at any level.
Fuck the fascist right and the fascist left.

oggsmash

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #924 on: July 07, 2022, 10:12:43 AM »
  Nuclear measures in Russia may be hollow, but that is not the point.  If enough of the people view it as a survivable endeavor that greatly affects the willingness of their people from top to bottom to engage in nuclear war.    Nukes start popping it wont matter for even a millisecond here in the USA how bad the shelters are in Russia once live testing begins. 

Battlemaster
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #925 on: July 07, 2022, 11:39:12 AM »
Their shelters may be made of plaster, and stocked with food that expired 30 years ago if their army is any indication.

Russian army forces have been found with 'trauma plates' in their body armor made of granite instead of silicon carbide and issued mres expired  long ago.

In many cases the reactive armor on their tanks have been found to be empty boxes.
While Ukrainian corruption is nothing to sneeze at, Russians have had problems for a LONG time -- predating the fall of the USSR -- with corruption as well.
Ghostie, corruption is baked into Putin's russia. Have a peep at this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6yA7Ge0EmY&t=728s

The fact is corruption is a feature of the Russian system. If everyone is encouraged to be corrupt then anyone can be arrested, jailed or executed for corruption at any time.

If you think corruption and incompetence are a Putin thing,  check this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1f47SC_A8&t=62s
Fuck the fascist right and the fascist left.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #926 on: July 07, 2022, 02:03:02 PM »
Their shelters may be made of plaster, and stocked with food that expired 30 years ago if their army is any indication.

Russian army forces have been found with 'trauma plates' in their body armor made of granite instead of silicon carbide and issued mres expired  long ago.

In many cases the reactive armor on their tanks have been found to be empty boxes.
While Ukrainian corruption is nothing to sneeze at, Russians have had problems for a LONG time -- predating the fall of the USSR -- with corruption as well.
Ghostie, corruption is baked into Putin's russia. Have a peep at this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6yA7Ge0EmY&t=728s

The fact is corruption is a feature of the Russian system. If everyone is encouraged to be corrupt then anyone can be arrested, jailed or executed for corruption at any time.

If you think corruption and incompetence are a Putin thing,  check this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1f47SC_A8&t=62s
How to say you didn't read my post without actually saying it.

Really, dude, I literally fuckin' said: "Russians have had problems for a LONG time -- predating the fall of the USSR -- with corruption as well."


Battlemaster
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #927 on: July 07, 2022, 02:07:34 PM »
I read it, I wanted to help you grasp the scale of it which is to most people beyond belief. I mean, you look at it and it's off the fucking chart!!!  I mean we think America has corruption, and it does, but good ghawd we're nowhere near the organized corruption Russia always has been at!!!

So you say Russia is corrput, and people think corrupt like America, England, etc, is. Oh noooooo!  They're orders of magnitude more corrupt.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2022, 02:09:19 PM by Battlemaster »
Fuck the fascist right and the fascist left.

Jaeger

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #928 on: August 04, 2022, 07:59:50 PM »
More pro-Russia propaganda:

Amnesty International UK
Press releases

Ukraine: military endangering civilians by locating forces in residential areas - new research
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
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Daztur

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #929 on: August 04, 2022, 08:37:27 PM »
More pro-Russia propaganda:

Amnesty International UK
Press releases

Ukraine: military endangering civilians by locating forces in residential areas - new research
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new

Translation: Ukraine defends cities from Russian attacks instead of abandoning them. This results in Russians hitting those cities with artillery barrages. Somehow this is Ukraine's fault.