This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: Turning the corner on "woke"?  (Read 107325 times)

ScytheSong

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #90 on: July 02, 2021, 10:24:12 PM »
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

  I wince when I see people pretending to have actually read all of Das Capital and act like they were awake/remembered much of it.  Manifesto is manageable, but Marx was a terrible fucking writer.

More like Engels was a fucking terrible editor. I know I got through all of the Manifesto, and I think I finished Das Kapital. But my reading list was insane when I was in Junior High and Highschool (because my dad was *really* *really* into giving me a Liberal Education (tm)). Plato's Republic and Discourses, Huxley's Brave New World, The Analects of Confucius, Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, and a selection of Existentialists from Dostoevsky to Sartre. As well as Camus' The Stranger, Dianetics, the Book of Mormon, and the Bible (the last with Koine Greek lessons so I could read "the original"). I've been clocked reading theology textbooks at a page per minute for content. My brain does not work normally, I don't think.

Ogre

  • Newbie
  • *
  • O
  • Posts: 18
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2021, 10:51:26 PM »
My brain does not work normally, I don't think.
Yeah I see that, you agree with CRT.

ScytheSong

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #92 on: July 02, 2021, 11:02:25 PM »
My brain does not work normally, I don't think.
Yeah I see that, you agree with CRT.

CRT comes across as downright moderate compared to Liberation Theology, which I can go on at insane lengths about, too. (Hint: Liberation Theology really is a postmodern Marxist endeavor and I don't like it at all.)

DocJones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1082
  • theofascist
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #93 on: July 02, 2021, 11:08:39 PM »
Scythe song is on to something, I didnt know that had a sweet gallows set up.
Well it was more of a toy gallows.   The noose was improperly tied, probably by a Boy Scout (since they don't learn the knot).


moonsweeper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 944
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2021, 11:10:45 PM »
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

I never called anyone a Marxist...I pointed out that you were using the same tired old argument people have been using to defend communism forever.

...and anyone with your obvious knowledge of theology, etc., etc. would know that while Christianity may have ties to some of Marx's ideas, Christianity is a 'voluntarily' entered compact.

...and btw, where can I get these fancy 'police-grade' zip ties...all I have are the extra heavy-duty ones I picked at the hardware store.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 11:12:24 PM by moonsweeper »
"I have a very hard time taking seriously someone who has the time and resources to protest capitalism, while walking around in Nike shoes and drinking Starbucks, while filming it on their iPhone."  --  Alderaan Crumbs

"Just, can you make it The Ramones at least? I only listen to Abba when I want to fuck a stripper." -- Jeff37923

"Government is the only entity that relies on its failures to justify the expansion of its powers." -- David Freiheit (Viva Frei)

ScytheSong

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2021, 11:23:10 PM »
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

I never called anyone a Marxist...I pointed out that you were using the same tired old argument people have been using to defend communism forever.

...and anyone with your obvious knowledge of theology, etc., etc. would know that while Christianity may have ties to some of Marx's ideas, Christianity is a 'voluntarily' entered compact.

...and btw, where can I get these fancy 'police-grade' zip ties...all I have are the extra heavy-duty ones I picked at the hardware store.

I failed at being funny. I can only defend myself by saying I have a very strange sense of humor/whimsey.

On the more serious question, I haven't done it, but a friend of mine in the security business gets the police-style zipties (the ones that can be used to actually restrain an adult male without stripping under pressure and start already looped)  from what he calls his "cop shop", a combination gun, military surplus, and police gear store. I think it was in Federal Way, Washington when last I heard.

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2021, 11:39:03 PM »

...and btw, where can I get these fancy 'police-grade' zip ties...all I have are the extra heavy-duty ones I picked at the hardware store.
The cops were handing them out at the door of the Capitol.

ThatChrisGuy

  • Middle-aged Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • T
  • Posts: 589
    • http://southernstylegurps.blogspot.com/
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2021, 11:40:53 PM »
To the trash bin you go ScytheSong.

Again, probably.
I made a blog: Southern Style GURPS

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14805
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2021, 11:50:45 PM »
Homeschool your kids or they will be indoctrinated. Pick one.

I'm an ex-special education teacher. Let me assure you that screaming at school boards changes nothing. Even state rulings will just mean they rebrand CRT and the leftist teachers feel the "moral duty" to double down on indoctrination.

And understand how teacher's unions work. If a teacher "gets in trouble" and "loses their job", the union and the district just shuffles them into another school.

Thus, teachers in states where CRT is outlawed can teach CRT until caught, then keep teaching CRT until fired, then get moved to another school (or work from home via zoom) where they will go back to teaching CRT.

Fortunately, homeschooling has never been more popular with more available resources so parents willing to step up for the kids will find local and/or online supportive communities.

oggsmash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4009
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2021, 09:00:26 AM »
This is from a CRT textbook introduction:

The critical race theory (CRT) movement is a collection of activists and scholars interested in studying and transform- ing the relationship among race, racism, and power. The movement considers many of the same issues that conven- tional civil rights and ethnic studies discourses take up, but places them in a broader perspective that includes econom- ics, history, context, group- and self-interest, and even feel- ings and the unconscious. Unlike traditional civil rights, which embraces incrementalism and step-by-step progress, critical race theory questions the very foundations of the lib- eral order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, En- lightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitu- tional law.

Thanks, Trond. To be specific, that seems to be from this book by Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/344649.Critical_Race_Theory_An_Introduction

The rejection of neutral principles sounds like what I was talking about the rejection of race-neutral merit as an ideal.


I'm not saying these are inherently in Critical Race Theory, but they are perceived to be, by people on both sides.
None of that's Critical Race Theory. You're just adding a lot of confusion to the issue.

CRT starts with the assumption that everything is racist. Every person, every institution, and every interaction. That it's the norm. This is sometimes called systemic racism. Going deeper, it claims that race is an artificial construct created by white people, who used it to give themselves power, and exclude other people. They further claim that since white people benefit from it, they have a vested interest in maintaining the system, and usually can't even see how the structure of everything favors them. These are the unquestionable tenets of the movement.

This means Critical Race theorists never look for proof that racism exists in any situation.

I haven't read anything that called itself Critical Race Theory, but I've read about systemic racism from more traditional social science in my education studies - like Beverly Tatum's "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?" and ​Michelle Alexander's "The New Jim Crow". Those are very concerned with looking at the data, but it is difficult to absolutely prove racism exists from social science data. Proof of any motivation or bias is difficult.

Some approaches assume that there is no racial prejudice, and only admit it exists if it can be definitely proven -- but in nearly any case, someone can propose alternate explanations. For example, maybe people are simply biased against names like Jamal rather than names like Greg, and it is the name rather than race. I think given the difficulty of absolute proof in social science, this sets the bar too high.

My point is that there is a lot of disagreement over a lot of what is considered Critical Race Theory, like systemic racism. I'm not expressing any expert opinion over that - but that's semantics, not a statement of position. What we're more concerned about is specific positions regarding race and racism, not the semantics of CRT. As I mentioned, many of the supposedly "anti-CRT" laws have no mention of CRT at all.

   CRT is nebulous by design.  It is anti white, and often makes a whole bunch of other racist assumptions and proclamations.   The fact its proponents always fall to "that isnt even CRT". Well that sounds a whole lot like the priests telling the masses they can not decipher the word of God.  I can tell you this,  if people keep pushing the anti white thing (and I do not care what any one calls it, that is a lot of what the real problem is) those people may finally create the monster they are so terrified of.  It is one thing to bully and beat a tiny minority, historically in this country that does not work out for the long game;  it is idiocy to attempt to do the same against an armed majority.   I could be wrong though, propagandists have never had the apparatus to push their bullshit in so many areas of life as they have now.   There are just some lines that are red, and can not be crossed without some other boxes checked. 

ScytheSong

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2021, 09:18:29 AM »
Damn things are called flex cuffs, zip-cuffs, or disposable handcuffs. Whee.

And now I'm off for a vacation with my wife and kids, something most of you probably know nothing about. See you all in about a week.

moonsweeper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 944
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2021, 10:16:22 AM »
What odds is anyone offering on the children in that household growing up with mental issues?
"I have a very hard time taking seriously someone who has the time and resources to protest capitalism, while walking around in Nike shoes and drinking Starbucks, while filming it on their iPhone."  --  Alderaan Crumbs

"Just, can you make it The Ramones at least? I only listen to Abba when I want to fuck a stripper." -- Jeff37923

"Government is the only entity that relies on its failures to justify the expansion of its powers." -- David Freiheit (Viva Frei)

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8331
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2021, 10:21:53 AM »
Damn things are called flex cuffs, zip-cuffs, or disposable handcuffs. Whee.

And now I'm off for a vacation with my wife and kids, something most of you probably know nothing about. See you all in about a week.

What an ass. At least the quality of posting here will improve by that much for about a week.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8331
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2021, 10:23:31 AM »
What odds is anyone offering on the children in that household growing up with mental issues?

I doubt he's even got kids or a wife or has been to college. I'm starting to suspect another sockpuppet troll.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Snowman0147

  • Now Even More Frosty
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3085
Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2021, 10:31:05 AM »
What odds is anyone offering on the children in that household growing up with mental issues?

I doubt he's even got kids or a wife or has been to college. I'm starting to suspect another sockpuppet troll.

Pundit and the admins need to do some gatekeeping.  I already know that well liked long time user asked to have his account deleted and left this site.