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Author Topic: Turning the corner on "woke"?  (Read 107268 times)

ScytheSong

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2021, 08:16:52 PM »
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

ScytheSong

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2021, 08:19:33 PM »
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

You don't need firearms to kill people when you have baseball bats, police-grade zipties, and a gallows.

Snowman0147

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2021, 08:24:04 PM »
To the trash bin you go ScytheSong.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2021, 08:43:06 PM »
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Zelen

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2021, 08:44:46 PM »
Yeah not sure I want to continue to entertain this level of trollery/obtuseness.

oggsmash

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2021, 08:48:48 PM »
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

  I wince when I see people pretending to have actually read all of Das Capital and act like they were awake/remembered much of it.  Manifesto is manageable, but Marx was a terrible fucking writer.

Pat
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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2021, 08:50:27 PM »
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

You don't need firearms to kill people when you have baseball bats, police-grade zipties, and a gallows.
Zip ties have killed more people than covid!

Snowman0147

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2021, 08:52:44 PM »

oggsmash

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2021, 08:54:43 PM »
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

You don't need firearms to kill people when you have baseball bats, police-grade zipties, and a gallows.
Zip ties have killed more people than covid!

  Baseball bats (and blugeons) have killed more people than AR-15s.   Scythe song is on to something, I didnt know that had a sweet gallows set up.  I guess the dumb motherfucker doesnt realize you are not getting past the guys with guns with baseball bats though. 

Pat
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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2021, 08:55:53 PM »
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

You don't need firearms to kill people when you have baseball bats, police-grade zipties, and a gallows.
Zip ties have killed more people than covid!

  Baseball bats (and blugeons) have killed more people than AR-15s.   This guy is on to something, I didnt know that had a sweet gallows set up.  I guess the dumb motherfucker doesnt realize you are not getting past the guys with guns with baseball bats though.
It's not a real gun unless it has a baseball bat.

Shasarak

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2021, 09:17:21 PM »
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

You don't need firearms to kill people when you have baseball bats, police-grade zipties, and a gallows.

They were going to use the Wuhan virus!
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SHARK

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2021, 09:29:20 PM »
Greetings!

Well, Communism, in very basic form, *can* work. We know this from history, as well as current anthropological and sociological study. However, the ingredients that go into the basic recipe for some level of working success have very little in common with modern Communists or Marxists. The essential requirements for a successful communal society embracing a more "Communistic Style" are the following attributes:

(1) RELIGIOUS/CULTURAL UNITY: Singular Religion/Culture of all participants

(2) SMALL SCALE: The community is--and remains--small in scale. A few hundred, maybe a few thousand people at most living in such a community.

(3) VOLUNTARY PARTICIPATION: Everyone living within such a community does so entirely voluntarily, of their own free will, and suffering no form of imposed punishment or retribution against them for seeking to leave such a community, and live in an entirely different kind of community.

The historical examples I can think of are some communities in the Bible; Various American Indian tribes; and the Jewish Kabutzes. All, interestingly, also embrace each of the three essential attributes in order to approach any kind of working success.

None of that really stands as anything workable or realistic in the modern world, with nations of hundreds of millions of people, vastly different political, cultural, and religious views and ways of life.

So, at the end of the day, the naïve, moron modern Marxist can choke on the deeper truth that what they support as an ideology is deeply unchristian, wicked, tyrannical, and evil.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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jhkim

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2021, 09:30:24 PM »
This is from a CRT textbook introduction:

The critical race theory (CRT) movement is a collection of activists and scholars interested in studying and transform- ing the relationship among race, racism, and power. The movement considers many of the same issues that conven- tional civil rights and ethnic studies discourses take up, but places them in a broader perspective that includes econom- ics, history, context, group- and self-interest, and even feel- ings and the unconscious. Unlike traditional civil rights, which embraces incrementalism and step-by-step progress, critical race theory questions the very foundations of the lib- eral order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, En- lightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitu- tional law.

Thanks, Trond. To be specific, that seems to be from this book by Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/344649.Critical_Race_Theory_An_Introduction

The rejection of neutral principles sounds like what I was talking about the rejection of race-neutral merit as an ideal.


I'm not saying these are inherently in Critical Race Theory, but they are perceived to be, by people on both sides.
None of that's Critical Race Theory. You're just adding a lot of confusion to the issue.

CRT starts with the assumption that everything is racist. Every person, every institution, and every interaction. That it's the norm. This is sometimes called systemic racism. Going deeper, it claims that race is an artificial construct created by white people, who used it to give themselves power, and exclude other people. They further claim that since white people benefit from it, they have a vested interest in maintaining the system, and usually can't even see how the structure of everything favors them. These are the unquestionable tenets of the movement.

This means Critical Race theorists never look for proof that racism exists in any situation.

I haven't read anything that called itself Critical Race Theory, but I've read about systemic racism from more traditional social science in my education studies - like Beverly Tatum's "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?" and ​Michelle Alexander's "The New Jim Crow". Those are very concerned with looking at the data, but it is difficult to absolutely prove racism exists from social science data. Proof of any motivation or bias is difficult.

Some approaches assume that there is no racial prejudice, and only admit it exists if it can be definitely proven -- but in nearly any case, someone can propose alternate explanations. For example, maybe people are simply biased against names like Jamal rather than names like Greg, and it is the name rather than race. I think given the difficulty of absolute proof in social science, this sets the bar too high.

My point is that there is a lot of disagreement over a lot of what is considered Critical Race Theory, like systemic racism. I'm not expressing any expert opinion over that - but that's semantics, not a statement of position. What we're more concerned about is specific positions regarding race and racism, not the semantics of CRT. As I mentioned, many of the supposedly "anti-CRT" laws have no mention of CRT at all.

Pat
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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2021, 09:39:20 PM »
My point is that there is a lot of disagreement over a lot of what is considered Critical Race Theory, like systemic racism. I'm not expressing any expert opinion over that - but that's semantics, not a statement of position. What we're more concerned about is specific positions regarding race and racism, not the semantics of CRT. As I mentioned, many of the supposedly "anti-CRT" laws have no mention of CRT at all.
That's simply wrong. Look at what I said, and compare it to Trond's quotes. They're almost exactly the same. This isn't an accident. If you read almost any general book about Critical Race Theory, you'll find the same basic description, usually in the first chapter. This is not a case where there's a lot of confusion over what the term means. Everyone agrees on the basic elements that make up Critical Race Theory.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2021, 10:06:53 PM »
My point is that there is a lot of disagreement over a lot of what is considered Critical Race Theory, like systemic racism. I'm not expressing any expert opinion over that - but that's semantics, not a statement of position. What we're more concerned about is specific positions regarding race and racism, not the semantics of CRT. As I mentioned, many of the supposedly "anti-CRT" laws have no mention of CRT at all.
That's simply wrong. Look at what I said, and compare it to Trond's quotes. They're almost exactly the same. This isn't an accident. If you read almost any general book about Critical Race Theory, you'll find the same basic description, usually in the first chapter. This is not a case where there's a lot of confusion over what the term means. Everyone agrees on the basic elements that make up Critical Race Theory.

Yawp. If you want to get to the root of the issue, just ask the question "What is a Critical Theory?"
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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