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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: DocJones on June 12, 2021, 02:40:00 PM

Title: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: DocJones on June 12, 2021, 02:40:00 PM
Not a fan of rap, hip hop or whatever the kids are calling it these days.
However I couldn't help noticing that this guy's mocking the woke songs are hitting #1 on iTunes.
Tom MacDonald’s “Snowflakes” Reaches #1 On All-Genre US iTunes Sales Chart (https://headlineplanet.com/home/2021/06/04/tom-macdonalds-snowflakes-reaches-1-on-all-genre-us-itunes-sales-chart/)


Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on June 15, 2021, 01:36:43 PM
Not a fan of rap, hip hop or whatever the kids are calling it these days.
However I couldn't help noticing that this guy's mocking the woke songs are hitting #1 on iTunes.
Tom MacDonald’s “Snowflakes” Reaches #1 On All-Genre US iTunes Sales Chart (https://headlineplanet.com/home/2021/06/04/tom-macdonalds-snowflakes-reaches-1-on-all-genre-us-itunes-sales-chart/)

That's something to take note of for sure. Is it turning a corner? Not sure, we'll see what happens next.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on June 15, 2021, 04:04:29 PM
  If you have kids in public school, I can assure you woke is definitely NOT turning a corner.   There is some outrage shown on TV with parents ranting at board meetings, but I can tell you from where I am how that goes.  The uproar starts, some "conservative" runs their mouth about how we should not have CRT, MLK had a dream, yadda yadda yadda.  No one with a smidge of authority has the stones to call the shit what it is, anti white programming.  Add in the people who are for what they thing it is, are easily coerced into thinking it is something it is not and are led by Shitbirds who feel "Define CRT so we can address the concern" when it is nebulous as hell, authored by commies, and any critique of it is used to subtly (or in many places not so subtly) start tossing the R word for opposing it. 

    A corner might get turned, but I can honestly say the internet weirdos radicals have suddenly started to influence policy in local schools all over the country.  So time will tell.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 15, 2021, 07:25:42 PM
  If you have kids in public school, I can assure you woke is definitely NOT turning a corner.   There is some outrage shown on TV with parents ranting at board meetings, but I can tell you from where I am how that goes.  The uproar starts, some "conservative" runs their mouth about how we should not have CRT, MLK had a dream, yadda yadda yadda.  No one with a smidge of authority has the stones to call the shit what it is, anti white programming.  Add in the people who are for what they thing it is, are easily coerced into thinking it is something it is not and are led by Shitbirds who feel "Define CRT so we can address the concern" when it is nebulous as hell, authored by commies, and any critique of it is used to subtly (or in many places not so subtly) start tossing the R word for opposing it. 

    A corner might get turned, but I can honestly say the internet weirdos radicals have suddenly started to influence policy in local schools all over the country.  So time will tell.

I take it as a good sign that parents are getting pissed enough to show up and complain.

I found out about Tom Macdonald a few months ago. Really like his stuff. It's boilerplate anti-woke, but he puts a lot of energy into his songs and videos.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on June 17, 2021, 03:37:58 AM
  If you have kids in public school, I can assure you woke is definitely NOT turning a corner.   There is some outrage shown on TV with parents ranting at board meetings, but I can tell you from where I am how that goes.  The uproar starts, some "conservative" runs their mouth about how we should not have CRT, MLK had a dream, yadda yadda yadda.  No one with a smidge of authority has the stones to call the shit what it is, anti white programming.  Add in the people who are for what they thing it is, are easily coerced into thinking it is something it is not and are led by Shitbirds who feel "Define CRT so we can address the concern" when it is nebulous as hell, authored by commies, and any critique of it is used to subtly (or in many places not so subtly) start tossing the R word for opposing it. 

    A corner might get turned, but I can honestly say the internet weirdos radicals have suddenly started to influence policy in local schools all over the country.  So time will tell.

I take it as a good sign that parents are getting pissed enough to show up and complain.

I found out about Tom Macdonald a few months ago. Really like his stuff. It's boilerplate anti-woke, but he puts a lot of energy into his songs and videos.

  Well, I have a friend who is a teacher.  He has had two mandatory "training sessions" that were all out CRT.  The people pushing the shit screech you must define it for them and say it is not in the classroom (yet every teacher is being beaten over the head with it).  So parents being pissed still means jack shit IMO.  This is just the school district where I live (which is a pretty red county) so I have no idea if real action is taking place beyond people complaining, and them summarily being labeled racists.  So we will see.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 17, 2021, 08:18:28 AM
  If you have kids in public school, I can assure you woke is definitely NOT turning a corner.   There is some outrage shown on TV with parents ranting at board meetings, but I can tell you from where I am how that goes.  The uproar starts, some "conservative" runs their mouth about how we should not have CRT, MLK had a dream, yadda yadda yadda.  No one with a smidge of authority has the stones to call the shit what it is, anti white programming.  Add in the people who are for what they thing it is, are easily coerced into thinking it is something it is not and are led by Shitbirds who feel "Define CRT so we can address the concern" when it is nebulous as hell, authored by commies, and any critique of it is used to subtly (or in many places not so subtly) start tossing the R word for opposing it. 

    A corner might get turned, but I can honestly say the internet weirdos radicals have suddenly started to influence policy in local schools all over the country.  So time will tell.

I take it as a good sign that parents are getting pissed enough to show up and complain.

I found out about Tom Macdonald a few months ago. Really like his stuff. It's boilerplate anti-woke, but he puts a lot of energy into his songs and videos.

  Well, I have a friend who is a teacher.  He has had two mandatory "training sessions" that were all out CRT.  The people pushing the shit screech you must define it for them and say it is not in the classroom (yet every teacher is being beaten over the head with it).  So parents being pissed still means jack shit IMO.  This is just the school district where I live (which is a pretty red county) so I have no idea if real action is taking place beyond people complaining, and them summarily being labeled racists.  So we will see.
Not necessarily. There have been multiple events of parents showing up for school board meetings and ripping into them, to the point of at least one board fleeing the damn meeting.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/06/progressives_betray_their_panic_over_grass_roots_campaign_to_elect_school_boards_to_stop_crt.html

They are NOT having it all their way. And they only have themselves to blame.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2021, 10:07:55 AM
  If you have kids in public school, I can assure you woke is definitely NOT turning a corner.   There is some outrage shown on TV with parents ranting at board meetings, but I can tell you from where I am how that goes.  The uproar starts, some "conservative" runs their mouth about how we should not have CRT, MLK had a dream, yadda yadda yadda.  No one with a smidge of authority has the stones to call the shit what it is, anti white programming.  Add in the people who are for what they thing it is, are easily coerced into thinking it is something it is not and are led by Shitbirds who feel "Define CRT so we can address the concern" when it is nebulous as hell, authored by commies, and any critique of it is used to subtly (or in many places not so subtly) start tossing the R word for opposing it. 

    A corner might get turned, but I can honestly say the internet weirdos radicals have suddenly started to influence policy in local schools all over the country.  So time will tell.

I take it as a good sign that parents are getting pissed enough to show up and complain.

I found out about Tom Macdonald a few months ago. Really like his stuff. It's boilerplate anti-woke, but he puts a lot of energy into his songs and videos.

  Well, I have a friend who is a teacher.  He has had two mandatory "training sessions" that were all out CRT.  The people pushing the shit screech you must define it for them and say it is not in the classroom (yet every teacher is being beaten over the head with it).  So parents being pissed still means jack shit IMO.  This is just the school district where I live (which is a pretty red county) so I have no idea if real action is taking place beyond people complaining, and them summarily being labeled racists.  So we will see.
Not necessarily. There have been multiple events of parents showing up for school board meetings and ripping into them, to the point of at least one board fleeing the damn meeting.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/06/progressives_betray_their_panic_over_grass_roots_campaign_to_elect_school_boards_to_stop_crt.html

They are NOT having it all their way. And they only have themselves to blame.

  That is simply hopium IMO.  People complaining out loud means nothing.  It is like getting a rise out of Rand Paul jumping down fauci's throat for shit anyone with a modicum of sense would have long theorized.  Or disclosure about handling of emails that would have sent a grunt to prison.  No one got punished, and never will.    I will believe it when superintendants get fired and school board members replaced whole sale.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on June 18, 2021, 10:24:30 AM
Complaining out loud is what it takes if you ask me. People are generally terrified of being “the only one” who thinks something for themselves.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2021, 10:25:47 AM
Complaining out loud is what it takes if you ask me. People are generally terrified of being “the only one” who thinks something for themselves.

   I agree with that.  But without follow up action, it means nothing beyond noise.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on June 18, 2021, 11:32:55 AM
Complaining out loud is what it takes if you ask me. People are generally terrified of being “the only one” who thinks something for themselves.

   I agree with that.  But without follow up action, it means nothing beyond noise.
What action would you suggest?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2021, 12:56:23 PM
Complaining out loud is what it takes if you ask me. People are generally terrified of being “the only one” who thinks something for themselves.

   I agree with that.  But without follow up action, it means nothing beyond noise.
What action would you suggest?
   The supers for these schools who allow it in need to be fired, immediately.  If they are not, ALL the board members need to be replaced, and then fire the supers. 
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 12:55:06 AM
So Critical Race Theory is, at it's base, looking at the legal history of the United States of America and seeing how much of our laws were designed to keep WASP men in power, and particularly to keep black folks in line beneath the WASPs. It's hard to argue that redlining didn't happen, or that 'sundown' towns didn't exist, or that several hundred people were not murdered in Tulsa, and a couple thousand more were not burned out of their homes. In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you have to ignore all of the Jim Crow laws and all of the times when 'driving while black' got someone tossed in jail.

On the other hand, "woke" is and has always been stupid when taken out of the context of Black culture. It's a phrase coined by black folks in the South to talk about other folks (usually white but occasionally black or other race) and how well they understand what black folks go through on a daily basis. If anyone who passes the paper bag test is talking about wokeness in any form, I feel completely free to ignore them as uninformed, whether they are on the left or the right side of the spectrum.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 02, 2021, 01:01:12 AM
So Critical Race Theory is, at it's base, looking at the legal history of the United States of America and seeing how much of our laws were designed to keep WASP men in power, and particularly to keep black folks in line beneath the WASPs. It's hard to argue that redlining didn't happen, or that 'sundown' towns didn't exist, or that several hundred people were not murdered in Tulsa, and a couple thousand more were not burned out of their homes. In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you have to ignore all of the Jim Crow laws and all of the times when 'driving while black' got someone tossed in jail.

Your information is 50 years outdated. Critical Race Theory hasn't spent the past five decades frozen in time.

In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you only have to look into how they re-define terms and their basic assumptions about Theory.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 01:09:10 AM
So Critical Race Theory is, at it's base, looking at the legal history of the United States of America and seeing how much of our laws were designed to keep WASP men in power, and particularly to keep black folks in line beneath the WASPs. It's hard to argue that redlining didn't happen, or that 'sundown' towns didn't exist, or that several hundred people were not murdered in Tulsa, and a couple thousand more were not burned out of their homes. In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you have to ignore all of the Jim Crow laws and all of the times when 'driving while black' got someone tossed in jail.
Absolute horseshit. People argued and fought against all of that, long before Critical Race Theory raised its racist head. Critical Race Theory wasn't the champion that fought against even of one of those things, all it's doing is appropriating distorted versions of those events, long after the fact, to spread a virulently hateful message.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 01:33:02 AM
So Critical Race Theory is, at it's base, looking at the legal history of the United States of America and seeing how much of our laws were designed to keep WASP men in power, and particularly to keep black folks in line beneath the WASPs. It's hard to argue that redlining didn't happen, or that 'sundown' towns didn't exist, or that several hundred people were not murdered in Tulsa, and a couple thousand more were not burned out of their homes. In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you have to ignore all of the Jim Crow laws and all of the times when 'driving while black' got someone tossed in jail.

Your information is 50 years outdated. Critical Race Theory hasn't spent the past five decades frozen in time.

In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you only have to look into how they re-define terms and their basic assumptions about Theory.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/

Critical Theory and the Frankfurt School are a separate thing from Critical Race Theory, and your conflating them leaves me astonished and bewildered. It's like assuming that neoliberalism and libertarianism are the same thing because they have liber- as a shared root. Believe you me, I've read both recent and seminal works in Critical Race Theory, and your argument fails.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on July 02, 2021, 01:54:47 AM
So Critical Race Theory is, at it's base, looking at the legal history of the United States of America and seeing how much of our laws were designed to keep WASP men in power, and particularly to keep black folks in line beneath the WASPs. It's hard to argue that redlining didn't happen, or that 'sundown' towns didn't exist, or that several hundred people were not murdered in Tulsa, and a couple thousand more were not burned out of their homes. In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you have to ignore all of the Jim Crow laws and all of the times when 'driving while black' got someone tossed in jail.

Are we really buying into the propaganda in all of these issues?

I mean that sincerely. The CRT theory people are malicious liars who have demonstrated quite amply they don't care who they hurt with their lies, who lives or who dies, as long as they can profit from fomenting racial division.

What happened in Tulsa 100 years ago? No one really knows besides about 20 people (black & white) were killed after clashing over a sex crime(?) incident. After that? Well, what happened in dozens of major American cities last year? Is it at all possible that these were similar events?

Redlining? What exactly was going on here? Obviously a complex topic, but one in which, again, we see the range of acceptable discourse seems to narrow as the CRT types gain power and start using social bullying tactics to shut people up. Not all scholars agree, and I've seen some analysis that demonstrated (IMO) that these supposedly racist policies were actually reasonable financially sound policy. When government tried stepping in to "correct" the lending/homeownership problem they gave us the 2008 housing crash.

Sundown towns? Isn't it weird how we have all these scary names for things white people allegedly did a century ago (I'm sure there's some truth to it, but also a lot of motivated exaggeration), but our lexicon of ominous phrases doesn't have a word for the same phenomenon happening to whites?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 02:09:59 AM
I think I know what's going on, now. Someone seems to have conflated Anti-Racism Training and Critical Race Theory in the Foxosphere's minds. Anti-racism training is an insane mish-mash of several things, including a warped view of CRT, usually pushed by people who don't know why anti-racism can be useful or important, and the actual trainings (including 90% of the ones I've been subjected to) are almost always poorly executed or so basic to be useless. Yes, everyone knows that racism is bad, and looking at ways in which the deck is stacked against people who aren't white (or white *enough* in some times and places) can be useful. But hearing for the eighth or ninth time in a 40-hour "training" that "white privilege" and "white fragility" need to be accepted (without going in-depth into what exactly those two phrases are shorthand for) before "racial healing" (again, left undefined) can begin is really difficult to swallow....

Unless you've had the 15 semester-hours that I've had on Critical Race Theory, Cultural Encounters and Reflection, Clinical Pastoral Education, and Imago Dei (M.Div. branch of understanding these things) that build a picture of just how fucked up the United States is on race relations. I had one class that was led by a Tejano whose family had lived in the San Antonio area since the 1500's, had an ancestor who got out of the Alamo before the Mexicans closed in, and was told by a guy whose parents were refugees from WWII Poland that he should "Leave the US to us Americans." in my presence. These things are really, really tricky and need some time to work through and nuanced discussion. They don't work so well in soundbites or "trainings" that are designed (even by well-meaning people) to make a buck and cover HR-required Continuing Education hours.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: deathknight4044 on July 02, 2021, 02:11:18 AM
So Critical Race Theory is, at it's base, looking at the legal history of the United States of America and seeing how much of our laws were designed to keep WASP men in power, and particularly to keep black folks in line beneath the WASPs. It's hard to argue that redlining didn't happen, or that 'sundown' towns didn't exist, or that several hundred people were not murdered in Tulsa, and a couple thousand more were not burned out of their homes. In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you have to ignore all of the Jim Crow laws and all of the times when 'driving while black' got someone tossed in jail.

On the other hand, "woke" is and has always been stupid when taken out of the context of Black culture. It's a phrase coined by black folks in the South to talk about other folks (usually white but occasionally black or other race) and how well they understand what black folks go through on a daily basis. If anyone who passes the paper bag test is talking about wokeness in any form, I feel completely free to ignore them as uninformed, whether they are on the left or the right side of the spectrum.

Absolute nonsense your presentation of it is a trojan horse. You know we can read the work of people like Robin DeAngelo online for free right? Its anti White libel and will be fought at every turn.

I've asked it before and I'll ask it again, if the use of the terms Wuhan virus or kung flu instigate violence against Asians, how is the constant charges of white supremacy, white fragility, white rage, oppressor etc not instigate violence against my race? How is "deadnaming" or referring to a tranny by their actual sex "violence" yet constant vilification of White European peoples is a okay? This game has gone on for long enough.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: deathknight4044 on July 02, 2021, 02:16:06 AM
I think I know what's going on, now. Someone seems to have conflated Anti-Racism Training and Critical Race Theory in the Foxosphere's minds. Anti-racism training is an insane mish-mash of several things, including a warped view of CRT, usually pushed by people who don't know why anti-racism can be useful or important, and the actual trainings (including 90% of the ones I've been subjected to) are almost always poorly executed or so basic to be useless. Yes, everyone knows that racism is bad, and looking at ways in which the deck is stacked against people who aren't white (or white *enough* in some times and places) can be useful. But hearing for the eighth or ninth time in a 40-hour "training" that "white privilege" and "white fragility" need to be accepted (without going in-depth into what exactly those two phrases are shorthand for) before "racial healing" (again, left undefined) can begin is really difficult to swallow....

Unless you've had the 15 semester-hours that I've had on Critical Race Theory, Cultural Encounters and Reflection, Clinical Pastoral Education, and Imago Dei (M.Div. branch of understanding these things) that build a picture of just how fucked up the United States is on race relations. I had one class that was led by a Tejano whose family had lived in the San Antonio area since the 1500's, had an ancestor who got out of the Alamo before the Mexicans closed in, and was told by a guy whose parents were refugees from WWII Poland that he should "Leave the US to us Americans." in my presence. These things are really, really tricky and need some time to work through and nuanced discussion. They don't work so well in soundbites or "trainings" that are designed (even by well-meaning people) to make a buck and cover HR-required Continuing Education hours.


"Unless youve been indoctrinated as I have, you arent allowed to have an opinion about our systemic vilification of White western people". Yeah man its so esoteric it's not like we can read the works of proponents of critical race theory like Robin DeAngelo, or the training material that teachers are being given, or the training corporation's like Disney and coca cola are pushing on to their employees.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 02:26:59 AM
Sundown towns? Isn't it weird how we have all these scary names for things white people allegedly did a century ago (I'm sure there's some truth to it, but also a lot of motivated exaggeration), but our lexicon of ominous phrases doesn't have a word for the same phenomenon happening to whites?

Just on this one: I'm curious if you know of any US townships or counties where, by law, if you were white, you couldn't stay overnight (even in a payed lodging) without being arrested and thrown in jail for vagrancy. There were several of those for nonwhites in the early-to-mid twentieth century US. In fact, Washington Territory (now Washington State) actually declared a handful of Black families "officially white" when they passed their restrictive "anti-Negro" laws preventing any black person from owning real property.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 02:40:40 AM
I think I know what's going on, now. Someone seems to have conflated Anti-Racism Training and Critical Race Theory in the Foxosphere's minds.
Nope, never listened to Fox News. My only exposure to any of their shows is watching the (not complimentary) Outfoxed documentary.

And you're the one who's claiming that Critical Race Theory is behind the Civil Rights Movement, when in fact it was created by Harvard scholars in the 60s and 70s, after, and in response to the successes of, the Civil Right Movement. And you can't weasel your way of the out the timing by claiming you were referring to something broader, because another poster referred back to the older Critical Theory, and you rejected that and said you're referring to Critical Race Theory in specific.

So your entire first post, which tries to credit all kinds of earlier historical events to Critical Race Theory, is completely and objectively wrong. Which you can't defend, so you're just making unsubstantiated claims that everybody else knows nothing.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on July 02, 2021, 02:47:35 AM
Just on this one: I'm curious if you know of any US townships or counties where, by law, if you were white, you couldn't stay overnight (even in a payed lodging) without being arrested and thrown in jail for vagrancy. There were several of those for nonwhites in the early-to-mid twentieth century US. In fact, Washington Territory (now Washington State) actually declared a handful of Black families "officially white" when they passed their restrictive "anti-Negro" laws preventing any black person from owning real property.

No doubt that's awful. I'm not sure if that's fundamentally any different than being under threat of grievous bodily injury for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. For legal codification? I don't think that exists yet, but give it another few years.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 02:48:23 AM

"Unless youve been indoctrinated as I have, you arent allowed to have an opinion about our systemic vilification of White western people". Yeah man its so esoteric it's not like we can read the works of proponents of critical race theory like Robin DeAngelo, or the training material that teachers are being given, or the training corporation's like Disney and coca cola are pushing on to their employees.

Not what I was saying, but you do you. You can have any opinion you want, you can feel as vilified as you want, but I put it down to jargon. I mean, "white fragility" and "non-whites are better at this than whites are" (which are entirely from one person's academic work, mind you) are jarring to hear without a lot of context and conversations that need to occur in a better setting than with online randos like me.

But, no, it isn't supposed to be a vilification. It's part of a conversation about race that noticed, like you've shown, as soon as racial issues come up, a lot of white folk get really defensive. Why is that? I've seen it happen again and again in conversations I've had -- in fact, until I got my nose rubbed in it when I was 20, I was much the same way -- and "white fragility" is one way to shorthand what's going on.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 02:52:37 AM
I think I know what's going on, now. Someone seems to have conflated Anti-Racism Training and Critical Race Theory in the Foxosphere's minds.
Nope, never listened to Fox News. My only exposure to any of their shows is watching the (not complimentary) Outfoxed documentary.

And you're the one who's claiming that Critical Race Theory is behind the Civil Rights Movement, when in fact it was created by Harvard scholars in the 60s and 70s, after, and in response to the successes of, the Civil Right Movement. And you can't weasel your way of the out the timing by claiming you were referring to something broader, because another poster referred back to the older Critical Theory, and you rejected that and said you're referring to Critical Race Theory in specific.

So your entire first post, which tries to credit all kinds of earlier historical events to Critical Race Theory, is completely and objectively wrong. Which you can't defend, so you're just making unsubstantiated claims that everybody else knows nothing.

Critical Race Theory explores how the surrounding structures of laws allowed those things to happen. I didn't claim that it was behind the Civil Rights Movement. That would be absurd, and you probably got the idea from the individual who conflated Critical Race Theory (mostly started in the 1970s) with Critical Theory/the Frankfurt School (that got its start in 1920's Germany). I don't get how you managed to misread me that badly.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: deathknight4044 on July 02, 2021, 02:55:45 AM
Quote
But, no, it isn't supposed to be a vilification. It's part of a conversation about race that noticed, like you've shown, as soon as racial issues come up, a lot of white folk get really defensive. Why is that? I've seen it happen again and again in conversations I've had -- in fact, until I got my nose rubbed in it when I was 20, I was much the same way -- and "white fragility" is one way to shorthand what's going on.
[/quote

I've asked it before and I'll ask it again, if the use of the terms Wuhan virus or kung flu instigate violence against Asians, how is the constant charges of white supremacy, white fragility, white rage, oppressor etc not instigate violence against my race? Why is the former a valid concern and the latter "fragile"?

At this point I encourage you to keep pushing. This is fueling White racial consciousness and White identity in a way that was inconceivable just a few short years ago. I say keep going.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 02:59:16 AM
I think I know what's going on, now. Someone seems to have conflated Anti-Racism Training and Critical Race Theory in the Foxosphere's minds.
Nope, never listened to Fox News. My only exposure to any of their shows is watching the (not complimentary) Outfoxed documentary.

And you're the one who's claiming that Critical Race Theory is behind the Civil Rights Movement, when in fact it was created by Harvard scholars in the 60s and 70s, after, and in response to the successes of, the Civil Right Movement. And you can't weasel your way of the out the timing by claiming you were referring to something broader, because another poster referred back to the older Critical Theory, and you rejected that and said you're referring to Critical Race Theory in specific.

So your entire first post, which tries to credit all kinds of earlier historical events to Critical Race Theory, is completely and objectively wrong. Which you can't defend, so you're just making unsubstantiated claims that everybody else knows nothing.

Critical Race Theory explores how the surrounding structures of laws allowed those things to happen. I didn't claim that it was behind the Civil Rights Movement. That would be absurd, and you probably got the idea from the individual who conflated Critical Race Theory (mostly started in the 1970s) with Critical Theory/the Frankfurt School (that got its start in 1920's Germany). I don't get how you managed to misread me that badly.
I didn't misread anything. You literally said: "In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you have to ignore all of the Jim Crow laws...."

That's an explicit claim that Critical Race Theory owns those events, and all the other ones you named elsewhere in the paragraph. That Critical Race Theory is so enwrapped in those events, that arguing against Critical Race Theory is tantamount to supporting those events.

But, as I pointed out, all those events occurred, and were overcome, before Critical Race Theory even existed. They were defeated by the liberal principles, like equal treatment under the law, that Critical Race Theory has come to completely reject.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: deathknight4044 on July 02, 2021, 02:59:43 AM
Sundown towns? Isn't it weird how we have all these scary names for things white people allegedly did a century ago (I'm sure there's some truth to it, but also a lot of motivated exaggeration), but our lexicon of ominous phrases doesn't have a word for the same phenomenon happening to whites?

Just on this one: I'm curious if you know of any US townships or counties where, by law, if you were white, you couldn't stay overnight (even in a payed lodging) without being arrested and thrown in jail for vagrancy. There were several of those for nonwhites in the early-to-mid twentieth century US. In fact, Washington Territory (now Washington State) actually declared a handful of Black families "officially white" when they passed their restrictive "anti-Negro" laws preventing any black person from owning real property.

And I should care more about this than the obscenely asymmetrical rates of interracial murder and rape committed against my race for the past 60 years?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 02, 2021, 03:02:21 AM
I think I know what's going on, now. Someone seems to have conflated Anti-Racism Training and Critical Race Theory in the Foxosphere's minds. Anti-racism training is an insane mish-mash of several things, including a warped view of CRT, usually pushed by people who don't know why anti-racism can be useful or important, and the actual trainings (including 90% of the ones I've been subjected to) are almost always poorly executed or so basic to be useless. Yes, everyone knows that racism is bad, and looking at ways in which the deck is stacked against people who aren't white (or white *enough* in some times and places) can be useful. But hearing for the eighth or ninth time in a 40-hour "training" that "white privilege" and "white fragility" need to be accepted (without going in-depth into what exactly those two phrases are shorthand for) before "racial healing" (again, left undefined) can begin is really difficult to swallow....

Unless you've had the 15 semester-hours that I've had on Critical Race Theory, Cultural Encounters and Reflection, Clinical Pastoral Education, and Imago Dei (M.Div. branch of understanding these things) that build a picture of just how fucked up the United States is on race relations. I had one class that was led by a Tejano whose family had lived in the San Antonio area since the 1500's, had an ancestor who got out of the Alamo before the Mexicans closed in, and was told by a guy whose parents were refugees from WWII Poland that he should "Leave the US to us Americans." in my presence. These things are really, really tricky and need some time to work through and nuanced discussion. They don't work so well in soundbites or "trainings" that are designed (even by well-meaning people) to make a buck and cover HR-required Continuing Education hours.

I hear that you can't really understand Scientology unless you complete all the OT programs.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 02, 2021, 03:17:27 AM

"Unless youve been indoctrinated as I have, you arent allowed to have an opinion about our systemic vilification of White western people". Yeah man its so esoteric it's not like we can read the works of proponents of critical race theory like Robin DeAngelo, or the training material that teachers are being given, or the training corporation's like Disney and coca cola are pushing on to their employees.

Not what I was saying, but you do you. You can have any opinion you want, you can feel as vilified as you want, but I put it down to jargon. I mean, "white fragility" and "non-whites are better at this than whites are" (which are entirely from one person's academic work, mind you) are jarring to hear without a lot of context and conversations that need to occur in a better setting than with online randos like me.

But, no, it isn't supposed to be a vilification. It's part of a conversation about race that noticed, like you've shown, as soon as racial issues come up, a lot of white folk get really defensive. Why is that? I've seen it happen again and again in conversations I've had -- in fact, until I got my nose rubbed in it when I was 20, I was much the same way -- and "white fragility" is one way to shorthand what's going on.

White fragility is a deflection from criticism by accusing, either implicitly or explicitly, that the subject is racist and in denial. It's a very sophisticated version of "Have you stopped beating your wife?" It's also a term made popular by a women who is an admitted racist and, in my opinion, projects her racism onto white people in general.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 03:18:43 AM
I think I know what's going on, now. Someone seems to have conflated Anti-Racism Training and Critical Race Theory in the Foxosphere's minds.
Nope, never listened to Fox News. My only exposure to any of their shows is watching the (not complimentary) Outfoxed documentary.

And you're the one who's claiming that Critical Race Theory is behind the Civil Rights Movement, when in fact it was created by Harvard scholars in the 60s and 70s, after, and in response to the successes of, the Civil Right Movement. And you can't weasel your way of the out the timing by claiming you were referring to something broader, because another poster referred back to the older Critical Theory, and you rejected that and said you're referring to Critical Race Theory in specific.

So your entire first post, which tries to credit all kinds of earlier historical events to Critical Race Theory, is completely and objectively wrong. Which you can't defend, so you're just making unsubstantiated claims that everybody else knows nothing.

Critical Race Theory explores how the surrounding structures of laws allowed those things to happen. I didn't claim that it was behind the Civil Rights Movement. That would be absurd, and you probably got the idea from the individual who conflated Critical Race Theory (mostly started in the 1970s) with Critical Theory/the Frankfurt School (that got its start in 1920's Germany). I don't get how you managed to misread me that badly.
I didn't misread anything. You literally said: "In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you have to ignore all of the Jim Crow laws...."

That's an explicit claim that Critical Race Theory owns those events, and all the other ones you named elsewhere in the paragraph. That Critical Race Theory is so enwrapped in those events, that arguing against Critical Race Theory is tantamount to supporting those events.

But, as I pointed out, all those events occurred, and were overcome, before Critical Race Theory even existed. They were defeated by the liberal principles, like equal treatment under the law, that Critical Race Theory has come to completely reject.

Again, Critical Race Theory is a historical study of how laws in the United States were used, and continue to be used, to keep White folks above folks who were/are seen as not-White. The Jim Crow laws are a clear case of laws that were used for right near a century to keep non-White folks below White folks in society. The fact that most of the Jim Crow laws were struck down by Federal Courts (including the Supreme Court) over the objections of state-level courts, and why that was, is part of the question.

As far as I know, Critical Race Theory doesn't reject the *principle* of equal treatment under the law, but it deeply questions whether the current United States criminal justice system actually *practices* equal treatment under the law (for instance, the difference in incarceration rates for black males vs. white males on non-distribution possession of a controlled substance laws, which is vast).
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 03:35:04 AM
I think I know what's going on, now. Someone seems to have conflated Anti-Racism Training and Critical Race Theory in the Foxosphere's minds.
Nope, never listened to Fox News. My only exposure to any of their shows is watching the (not complimentary) Outfoxed documentary.

And you're the one who's claiming that Critical Race Theory is behind the Civil Rights Movement, when in fact it was created by Harvard scholars in the 60s and 70s, after, and in response to the successes of, the Civil Right Movement. And you can't weasel your way of the out the timing by claiming you were referring to something broader, because another poster referred back to the older Critical Theory, and you rejected that and said you're referring to Critical Race Theory in specific.

So your entire first post, which tries to credit all kinds of earlier historical events to Critical Race Theory, is completely and objectively wrong. Which you can't defend, so you're just making unsubstantiated claims that everybody else knows nothing.

Critical Race Theory explores how the surrounding structures of laws allowed those things to happen. I didn't claim that it was behind the Civil Rights Movement. That would be absurd, and you probably got the idea from the individual who conflated Critical Race Theory (mostly started in the 1970s) with Critical Theory/the Frankfurt School (that got its start in 1920's Germany). I don't get how you managed to misread me that badly.
I didn't misread anything. You literally said: "In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you have to ignore all of the Jim Crow laws...."

That's an explicit claim that Critical Race Theory owns those events, and all the other ones you named elsewhere in the paragraph. That Critical Race Theory is so enwrapped in those events, that arguing against Critical Race Theory is tantamount to supporting those events.

But, as I pointed out, all those events occurred, and were overcome, before Critical Race Theory even existed. They were defeated by the liberal principles, like equal treatment under the law, that Critical Race Theory has come to completely reject.

Again, Critical Race Theory is a historical study of how laws in the United States were used, and continue to be used, to keep White folks above folks who were/are seen as not-White. The Jim Crow laws are a clear case of laws that were used for right near a century to keep non-White folks below White folks in society. The fact that most of the Jim Crow laws were struck down by Federal Courts (including the Supreme Court) over the objections of state-level courts, and why that was, is part of the question.

As far as I know, Critical Race Theory doesn't reject the *principle* of equal treatment under the law, but it deeply questions whether the current United States criminal justice system actually *practices* equal treatment under the law (for instance, the difference in incarceration rates for black males vs. white males on non-distribution possession of a controlled substance laws, which is vast).
None of that has anything to do with what I said. Once again, you avoid the issue, this time by being a patronizing little asshole.

The actual topic: You literally claimed that anyone who argues against your racist hate ideology is denying Jim Crow.

And Critical Race Theory certainly rejects the principle of equality under the law. It initially took its lead from liberal principles, but almost instantly abandoned them in favor of rejecting evidence and assuming guilt.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: deathknight4044 on July 02, 2021, 03:39:43 AM
I think I know what's going on, now. Someone seems to have conflated Anti-Racism Training and Critical Race Theory in the Foxosphere's minds.
Nope, never listened to Fox News. My only exposure to any of their shows is watching the (not complimentary) Outfoxed documentary.

And you're the one who's claiming that Critical Race Theory is behind the Civil Rights Movement, when in fact it was created by Harvard scholars in the 60s and 70s, after, and in response to the successes of, the Civil Right Movement. And you can't weasel your way of the out the timing by claiming you were referring to something broader, because another poster referred back to the older Critical Theory, and you rejected that and said you're referring to Critical Race Theory in specific.

So your entire first post, which tries to credit all kinds of earlier historical events to Critical Race Theory, is completely and objectively wrong. Which you can't defend, so you're just making unsubstantiated claims that everybody else knows nothing.

Critical Race Theory explores how the surrounding structures of laws allowed those things to happen. I didn't claim that it was behind the Civil Rights Movement. That would be absurd, and you probably got the idea from the individual who conflated Critical Race Theory (mostly started in the 1970s) with Critical Theory/the Frankfurt School (that got its start in 1920's Germany). I don't get how you managed to misread me that badly.
I didn't misread anything. You literally said: "In order to argue against Critical Race Theory, you have to ignore all of the Jim Crow laws...."

That's an explicit claim that Critical Race Theory owns those events, and all the other ones you named elsewhere in the paragraph. That Critical Race Theory is so enwrapped in those events, that arguing against Critical Race Theory is tantamount to supporting those events.

But, as I pointed out, all those events occurred, and were overcome, before Critical Race Theory even existed. They were defeated by the liberal principles, like equal treatment under the law, that Critical Race Theory has come to completely reject.

Again, Critical Race Theory is a historical study of how laws in the United States were used, and continue to be used, to keep White folks above folks who were/are seen as not-White. The Jim Crow laws are a clear case of laws that were used for right near a century to keep non-White folks below White folks in society. The fact that most of the Jim Crow laws were struck down by Federal Courts (including the Supreme Court) over the objections of state-level courts, and why that was, is part of the question.

As far as I know, Critical Race Theory doesn't reject the *principle* of equal treatment under the law, but it deeply questions whether the current United States criminal justice system actually *practices* equal treatment under the law (for instance, the difference in incarceration rates for black males vs. white males on non-distribution possession of a controlled substance laws, which is vast).

To portray laws that were in effect before most people were born or getting arrested more often for drugs as being more deserving of attention than the abhorrent amount of disproportionate interracial violence that Whites have faced for the last several generations is pure black fragility. If you disagree with me it is indicative of you being fragile and ignorant.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 03:40:09 AM

"Unless youve been indoctrinated as I have, you arent allowed to have an opinion about our systemic vilification of White western people". Yeah man its so esoteric it's not like we can read the works of proponents of critical race theory like Robin DeAngelo, or the training material that teachers are being given, or the training corporation's like Disney and coca cola are pushing on to their employees.

Not what I was saying, but you do you. You can have any opinion you want, you can feel as vilified as you want, but I put it down to jargon. I mean, "white fragility" and "non-whites are better at this than whites are" (which are entirely from one person's academic work, mind you) are jarring to hear without a lot of context and conversations that need to occur in a better setting than with online randos like me.

But, no, it isn't supposed to be a vilification. It's part of a conversation about race that noticed, like you've shown, as soon as racial issues come up, a lot of white folk get really defensive. Why is that? I've seen it happen again and again in conversations I've had -- in fact, until I got my nose rubbed in it when I was 20, I was much the same way -- and "white fragility" is one way to shorthand what's going on.

White fragility is a deflection from criticism by accusing, either implicitly or explicitly, that the subject is racist and in denial. It's a very sophisticated version of "Have you stopped beating your wife?" It's also a term made popular by a women who is an admitted racist and, in my opinion, projects her racism onto white people in general.

*shrug* well, yes. Everyone's a little bit racist (as "Avenue Q" puts it (Great show, I'd recommended it to anyone who wouldn't be freaked out by R-rated muppets)), but White fragility is an awful term that is poorly deployed in almost all of the places I've seen it. It does a reasonable job of putting a label on something I've experienced (and Deathknight4044 has been evincing with his "what about *me*? What about *my race*?" repetitions) It's nowhere near as universal as what you're saying DiAngelo claims, but it's there, right alongside the black woman waving her finger and saying, "Uh-UH! You did NOT just say that!"
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: deathknight4044 on July 02, 2021, 03:42:44 AM

"Unless youve been indoctrinated as I have, you arent allowed to have an opinion about our systemic vilification of White western people". Yeah man its so esoteric it's not like we can read the works of proponents of critical race theory like Robin DeAngelo, or the training material that teachers are being given, or the training corporation's like Disney and coca cola are pushing on to their employees.

Not what I was saying, but you do you. You can have any opinion you want, you can feel as vilified as you want, but I put it down to jargon. I mean, "white fragility" and "non-whites are better at this than whites are" (which are entirely from one person's academic work, mind you) are jarring to hear without a lot of context and conversations that need to occur in a better setting than with online randos like me.

But, no, it isn't supposed to be a vilification. It's part of a conversation about race that noticed, like you've shown, as soon as racial issues come up, a lot of white folk get really defensive. Why is that? I've seen it happen again and again in conversations I've had -- in fact, until I got my nose rubbed in it when I was 20, I was much the same way -- and "white fragility" is one way to shorthand what's going on.

White fragility is a deflection from criticism by accusing, either implicitly or explicitly, that the subject is racist and in denial. It's a very sophisticated version of "Have you stopped beating your wife?" It's also a term made popular by a women who is an admitted racist and, in my opinion, projects her racism onto white people in general.

*shrug* well, yes. Everyone's a little bit racist (as "Avenue Q" puts it (Great show, I'd recommended it to anyone who wouldn't be freaked out by R-rated muppets)), but White fragility is an awful term that is poorly deployed in almost all of the places I've seen it. It does a reasonable job of putting a label on something I've experienced (and Deathknight4044 has been evincing with his "what about *me*? What about *my race*?" repetitions) It's nowhere near as universal as what you're saying DiAngelo claims, but it's there, right alongside the black woman waving her finger and saying, "Uh-UH! You did NOT just say that!"


Yes indeed. What about us?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 03:46:21 AM
None of that has anything to do with what I said. Once again, you avoid the issue, this time by being a patronizing little asshole.

The actual topic: You literally claimed that anyone who argues against your racist hate ideology is denying Jim Crow.

And Critical Race Theory certainly rejects the principle of equality under the law. It initially took its lead from liberal principles, but almost instantly abandoned them in favor of rejecting evidence and assuming guilt.

What I came here to say is this: There may be a racist hate ideology out there, and something that feels uncomfortably like anti-White racism certainly shows up in anti-racism training, but the actual racist hate ideology is not Critical Race Theory, which is much more limited than what Christopher Rufo (see: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory (https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory) ) would like you to believe.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: deathknight4044 on July 02, 2021, 04:01:16 AM
None of that has anything to do with what I said. Once again, you avoid the issue, this time by being a patronizing little asshole.

The actual topic: You literally claimed that anyone who argues against your racist hate ideology is denying Jim Crow.

And Critical Race Theory certainly rejects the principle of equality under the law. It initially took its lead from liberal principles, but almost instantly abandoned them in favor of rejecting evidence and assuming guilt.

What I came here to say is this: There may be a racist hate ideology out there, and something that feels uncomfortably like anti-White racism certainly shows up in anti-racism training, but the actual racist hate ideology is not Critical Race Theory, which is much more limited than what Christopher Rufo (see: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory (https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory) ) would like you to believe.

"Real critical race theory has never been tried! All of these examples arent real critical race theory, but at the same time it's wrong and fragile of you to reject the content of those CRT lessons (that are actually not really CRT)"
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 02, 2021, 04:51:27 AM
None of that has anything to do with what I said. Once again, you avoid the issue, this time by being a patronizing little asshole.

The actual topic: You literally claimed that anyone who argues against your racist hate ideology is denying Jim Crow.

And Critical Race Theory certainly rejects the principle of equality under the law. It initially took its lead from liberal principles, but almost instantly abandoned them in favor of rejecting evidence and assuming guilt.

What I came here to say is this: There may be a racist hate ideology out there, and something that feels uncomfortably like anti-White racism certainly shows up in anti-racism training, but the actual racist hate ideology is not Critical Race Theory, which is much more limited than what Christopher Rufo (see: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory (https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory) ) would like you to believe.

Personally, I prefer James Lindsay.

Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: SHARK on July 02, 2021, 07:02:29 AM
Greetings!

Critical Race Theory is pure anti-white RACISM deeply rooted in Marxist ideology and given an academic glossed paintjob.

All of the piggy-squealing in defense of Critical Race Theory amounts to nothing more than obtuse gaslighting promoted by anti-white racists, race-grifting charlatans, demagogues, and other malevolent agent-provocateurs that seek the corruption and degradation of America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 08:01:04 AM
This may be relevant.

During the oughts and teens (2000-2010's), one of the big criticisms from the left about armed response against radical Islamism was that it would simply radicalize more Muslims and create more terrorists.

Now, skip forward to present day and we're told 'well, if you become radicalized by our racial agenda, you were probably already a bigot/Nazi/etc'.

Which is it? Because neither is a particularly good look for the left. Either the Islamists were always radicals, in which case we should have been putting the fear of Allah in them; or their agenda is radicalizing people and they don't want to admit it.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: moonsweeper on July 02, 2021, 08:20:18 AM
I think I know what's going on, now. Someone seems to have conflated Anti-Racism Training and Critical Race Theory in the Foxosphere's minds.

Gee, so someone who disagrees with you can only be getting their information from a 'bad source'...and you manage to lump everyone who disagrees into a 'category'...kind of reminds me of the same type of arguments that racists use...

Unless you've had the 15 semester-hours that I've had on Critical Race Theory, Cultural Encounters and Reflection, Clinical Pastoral Education, and Imago Dei (M.Div. branch of understanding these things) that build a picture of just how fucked up the United States is on race relations.

Its an rpg gaming forum...RPG gamers have a tendency to be fairly well read...You might want to have more than the equivalent of 1 semester's worth of classes before you try the big 'appeal to authority' reveal...

I had one class that was led by a Tejano whose family had lived in the San Antonio area since the 1500's, had an ancestor who got out of the Alamo before the Mexicans closed in, and was told by a guy whose parents were refugees from WWII Poland that he should "Leave the US to us Americans." in my presence. These things are really, really tricky and need some time to work through and nuanced discussion. They don't work so well in soundbites or "trainings" that are designed (even by well-meaning people) to make a buck and cover HR-required Continuing Education hours.

So you met someone who is racist?  Wow! Tell us more...I doubt anyone here has ever met someone who was an actual honest-to-God racist...  ::)
....and yet again with the appeal to authority...

Sundown towns? Isn't it weird how we have all these scary names for things white people allegedly did a century ago (I'm sure there's some truth to it, but also a lot of motivated exaggeration), but our lexicon of ominous phrases doesn't have a word for the same phenomenon happening to whites?

Just on this one: I'm curious if you know of any US townships or counties where, by law, if you were white, you couldn't stay overnight (even in a payed lodging) without being arrested and thrown in jail for vagrancy. There were several of those for nonwhites in the early-to-mid twentieth century US.

Yeah, but none of them were more recent than about 70 years ago...
You do realize that some of us knew about the 'Green Book' decades before the movie came out, right?

In fact, Washington Territory (now Washington State) actually declared a handful of Black families "officially white" when they passed their restrictive "anti-Negro" laws preventing any black person from owning real property.

Washington became a state in 1889...


But, no, it isn't supposed to be a vilification. It's part of a conversation about race that noticed, like you've shown, as soon as racial issues come up, a lot of white folk get really defensive. Why is that? I've seen it happen again and again in conversations I've had -- in fact, until I got my nose rubbed in it when I was 20, I was much the same way -- and "white fragility" is one way to shorthand what's going on.

So until fairly recently, then...

One wonders...Do you lecture your German friends on their Nazi heritage or your Japanese friends on how to absolve themselves for Korea and Nanking?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 10:43:03 AM
None of that has anything to do with what I said. Once again, you avoid the issue, this time by being a patronizing little asshole.

The actual topic: You literally claimed that anyone who argues against your racist hate ideology is denying Jim Crow.

And Critical Race Theory certainly rejects the principle of equality under the law. It initially took its lead from liberal principles, but almost instantly abandoned them in favor of rejecting evidence and assuming guilt.

What I came here to say is this: There may be a racist hate ideology out there, and something that feels uncomfortably like anti-White racism certainly shows up in anti-racism training, but the actual racist hate ideology is not Critical Race Theory, which is much more limited than what Christopher Rufo (see: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory (https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory) ) would like you to believe.
I'm not a fan of the anti-white racism because I'm not a fan of racism, but I think it's a relatively small part of the problem. The real issue is segregation. Dividing everyone into identity groups with their own grudges and pitting them against each other is resinstituting Jim Crow. 

That article seem to end halfway through.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 11:13:49 AM
So until fairly recently, then...

One wonders...Do you lecture your German friends on their Nazi heritage or your Japanese friends on how to absolve themselves for Korea and Nanking?

Heh. Born in 1970, thank you very much. But then, I went to a community college (1988-1990) where the two largest groups were the Black Student Union and the Gay and Lesbian Alliance.  Fundamentalist white boy goes to college and meets people who aren't like him, it's an old, old story.

And, no. My German friends get more crap for the entire Wars of Religion and Cuius regio, eius religio thing. I had Japanese Nissei and Issei friends growing up, but we mostly talked about Judo and what the best Japanese food was.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 11:31:48 AM
This may be relevant.

During the oughts and teens (2000-2010's), one of the big criticisms from the left about armed response against radical Islamism was that it would simply radicalize more Muslims and create more terrorists.

Now, skip forward to present day and we're told 'well, if you become radicalized by our racial agenda, you were probably already a bigot/Nazi/etc'.

Which is it? Because neither is a particularly good look for the left. Either the Islamists were always radicals, in which case we should have been putting the fear of Allah in them; or their agenda is radicalizing people and they don't want to admit it.

A lot of Western Liberals *still* have no clue about the divisions and tensions in Islam.  The Wahhabist sect is founded on the concept of "Jihad is preemptive self-defence". It also aggressively proselytizes, including other sects of Islam (those madrassas set up in poorer countries by Saudi Arabia? Almost universally Wahhabist, because the House of Saud is Wahhabist). The mainline Sunni and Shi'a sects are much less militant, but are significantly less likely to proselytize. This is similar to the actions of the White Nationalist/White Supremacist movements in the United States, who have been actively recruiting white folks, especially white law enforcement and (ex-)military, into their movements since just shortly after Ruby Ridge. Does anyone else here remember the Aryan Nations changing to "White Separatists" from "White Supremacists" because "We aren't as crazy as those The Order people?" They were actively looking for ways to make themselves more palatable to Middle America -- and today we have the Oathkeepers and Proud Boys as their spiritual descendants.

So, no, neither group was radicalized by any one else. They simply were aggressively recruiting and then radicalizing the kind of people they thought would be useful to their cause.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 11:38:07 AM
Greetings!

Critical Race Theory is pure anti-white RACISM deeply rooted in Marxist ideology and given an academic glossed paintjob.

All of the piggy-squealing in defense of Critical Race Theory amounts to nothing more than obtuse gaslighting promoted by anti-white racists, race-grifting charlatans, demagogues, and other malevolent agent-provocateurs that seek the corruption and degradation of America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You are wrong. But  then, what are you "always faithful" to, Mr. Shark? The United States of America, its people and Constitution, or just the kind of people who look and think like you? You seemed to be plenty happy when the constitution was being trampled on by a bunch of White Supremacist idiots back in January.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 11:40:01 AM
This may be relevant.

During the oughts and teens (2000-2010's), one of the big criticisms from the left about armed response against radical Islamism was that it would simply radicalize more Muslims and create more terrorists.

Now, skip forward to present day and we're told 'well, if you become radicalized by our racial agenda, you were probably already a bigot/Nazi/etc'.

Which is it? Because neither is a particularly good look for the left. Either the Islamists were always radicals, in which case we should have been putting the fear of Allah in them; or their agenda is radicalizing people and they don't want to admit it.

A lot of Western Liberals *still* have no clue about the divisions and tensions in Islam.  The Wahhabist sect is founded on the concept of "Jihad is preemptive self-defence". It also aggressively proselytizes, including other sects of Islam (those madrassas set up in poorer countries by Saudi Arabia? Almost universally Wahhabist, because the House of Saud is Wahhabist). The mainline Sunni and Shi'a sects are much less militant, but are significantly less likely to proselytize. This is similar to the actions of the White Nationalist/White Supremacist movements in the United States, who have been actively recruiting white folks, especially white law enforcement and (ex-)military, into their movements since just shortly after Ruby Ridge. Does anyone else here remember the Aryan Nations changing to "White Separatists" from "White Supremacists" because "We aren't as crazy as those The Order people?" They were actively looking for ways to make themselves more palatable to Middle America -- and today we have the Oathkeepers and Proud Boys as their spiritual descendants.

So, no, neither group was radicalized by any one else. They simply were aggressively recruiting and then radicalizing the kind of people they thought would be useful to their cause.

That's nice. You didn't refute a thing I said.

The left has managed to generate its own radical-right opposition. Good job!
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 02, 2021, 11:52:11 AM
This may be relevant.

During the oughts and teens (2000-2010's), one of the big criticisms from the left about armed response against radical Islamism was that it would simply radicalize more Muslims and create more terrorists.

Now, skip forward to present day and we're told 'well, if you become radicalized by our racial agenda, you were probably already a bigot/Nazi/etc'.

Which is it? Because neither is a particularly good look for the left. Either the Islamists were always radicals, in which case we should have been putting the fear of Allah in them; or their agenda is radicalizing people and they don't want to admit it.

A lot of Western Liberals *still* have no clue about the divisions and tensions in Islam.  The Wahhabist sect is founded on the concept of "Jihad is preemptive self-defence". It also aggressively proselytizes, including other sects of Islam (those madrassas set up in poorer countries by Saudi Arabia? Almost universally Wahhabist, because the House of Saud is Wahhabist). The mainline Sunni and Shi'a sects are much less militant, but are significantly less likely to proselytize. This is similar to the actions of the White Nationalist/White Supremacist movements in the United States, who have been actively recruiting white folks, especially white law enforcement and (ex-)military, into their movements since just shortly after Ruby Ridge. Does anyone else here remember the Aryan Nations changing to "White Separatists" from "White Supremacists" because "We aren't as crazy as those The Order people?" They were actively looking for ways to make themselves more palatable to Middle America -- and today we have the Oathkeepers and Proud Boys as their spiritual descendants.

So, no, neither group was radicalized by any one else. They simply were aggressively recruiting and then radicalizing the kind of people they thought would be useful to their cause.

Again with the Proud Boys? WTF did they do? Burned a BLM flag? A couple of them wandered into the Capitol building when others had already broken into it? (they weren't even there in force because they had nothing planned for that day) OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020? Proud Boys don't even register, except for the hysteria. And how are they "spiritual descendants" of white supremacists?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 11:54:18 AM
That's nice. You didn't refute a thing I said.

The left has managed to generate its own radical-right opposition. Good job!

Eeeh... *wiggles hand back and forth* The hard "Left" and hard "Right" have been ginning each other up over what could be considered petty nonsense since the days of the Roman Republic. But most of the radicalization is actually done internally, rather than externally. It's my opinion that, had someone taken out the House of Saud in the 1950's, there would be fewer radicalized Moslems in the world. Similarly, if someone had done a clean sweep of the white supremacist groups after Timothy McVeigh, we'd be seeing less idiocy from what are now called White Nationalists.

Of course, by your logic, the BLM protests getting violent is just a natural radicalization caused by the actions and rhetoric of Law Enforcement, so maybe you're right.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 12:01:14 PM
Again with the Proud Boys? WTF did they do? Burned a BLM flag? A couple of them wandered into the Capitol building when others had already broken into it? (they weren't even there in force because they had nothing planned for that day) OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020? Proud Boys don't even register, except for the hysteria. And how are they "spiritual descendants" of white supremacists?

Go and look at the NY Time's minute-by-minute video of the January 6 attack. Proud Boys were trying to get into the Capitol building before President Trump's speech was even ending. A Proud Boy was the first one to start breaking glass (with a stolen police riot shield) in the Capitol. Proud Boys in tactical gear were the people who lead the charge on the east side of the Capitol, and were the ones who were using radios to tell each other where the weak points in the police line were. They did *not* just walk in after other people were inside, they were at the front of an attempt to murder members of Congress and the Vice President.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on July 02, 2021, 12:03:21 PM
Sundown towns? Isn't it weird how we have all these scary names for things white people allegedly did a century ago (I'm sure there's some truth to it, but also a lot of motivated exaggeration), but our lexicon of ominous phrases doesn't have a word for the same phenomenon happening to whites?

Well I know Arab, AL had a sundown policy into the early '90s, so some of this shit is more recent than you might expect.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 02, 2021, 12:52:19 PM
The Proud Boys are terrible at white supremacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: jhkim on July 02, 2021, 01:26:53 PM
What I came here to say is this: There may be a racist hate ideology out there, and something that feels uncomfortably like anti-White racism certainly shows up in anti-racism training, but the actual racist hate ideology is not Critical Race Theory, which is much more limited than what Christopher Rufo (see: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory (https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory) ) would like you to believe.

Hi, ScytheSong. Thanks for the discussion. As far as I can tell, both liberals and conservatives have been unclear about what Critical Race Theory (CRT) is. Notably, liberals have still referred to Republican state laws as being "anti-CRT" even though they don't mention CRT and have nothing that prevents teaching about black history. For example, this is the relevant clause in Idaho Bill HB 377,

Quote
No public institution of higher education, school district, or public school, including a public charter school, shall direct or otherwise compel students to personally affirm, adopt, or adhere to any of the following tenets:
  (i) That any sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin is inherently superior or inferior;
  (ii) That individuals should be adversely treated on the basis of their sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin; or
  (iii) That individuals, by virtue of sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin, are inherently responsible for actions committed in the past by other members of the same sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin.
(b) No distinction or classification of students shall be made on account of race or color.
(c) No course of instruction or unit of study directing or otherwise compelling students to personally affirm, adopt, or adhere to any of the tenets identified in paragraph (a) of this subsection shall be used or introduced in any institution of higher education, any school district, or any public school, including a public charter school.

Yet this has still been referred to by liberals as being anti-CRT. I haven't studied CRT, but from a scanning of academic papers, it seems like it is a loose movement that doesn't have a clear core set of principles. This was an article by Gary Peller trying to describe,

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/06/30/critical-race-theory-lightning-rod-opinion-497046

The most controversial points may or may not be a part of Critical Race Theory, but I have seen them expressed. One of them is going beyond saying that the U.S. not a race-neutral meritocracy, but that race-neutral meritocracy is not an ideal to strive for, because the concept is flawed. This is a fundamental clash of philosophy. As Peller puts it,

Quote
We likewise question the traditional ways that liberals have defended affirmative action as a useful exception to a presumed race-blind ideal of “merit.” To us, the very definitions of merit reflect racial and other forms of social power.

Another is to what degree slavery and racism were inherent in the U.S. system as founded - which seems more about spin than about substance. Everyone agrees that slavery was in the Constitution - the question is how to characterize its part in it.

I'm not saying these are inherently in Critical Race Theory, but they are perceived to be, by people on both sides.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 02, 2021, 01:31:41 PM
Go and look at the NY Time's minute-by-minute video of the January 6 attack. Proud Boys were trying to get into the Capitol building before President Trump's speech was even ending. A Proud Boy was the first one to start breaking glass (with a stolen police riot shield) in the Capitol. Proud Boys in tactical gear were the people who lead the charge on the east side of the Capitol, and were the ones who were using radios to tell each other where the weak points in the police line were. They did *not* just walk in after other people were inside, they were at the front of an attempt to murder members of Congress and the Vice President.

I don't particularly like giving NY Times clicks anymore, after I realized that they are willingly lying to everyone's face, race-baiting, hiring people who hate whites etc. But is this video the one you're talking about?
https://www.joemygod.com/2021/06/nyt-issues-astounding-minute-by-minute-video-analysis-of-the-cultist-insurrection-at-the-us-capitol-video/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=939e0bf2a3f4712ac7412292e331d011fe3ab007-1625246789-0-AZwadZyfGH_LSgOD-xsFa3f2cMUkcrEO6YvgcLin2mET1OAj6zIEIivhVL_YK9Ll0BXqh9nS0y6XLNXUvi2sZLb478DzBshabyOxeHggsUyVeqgpFN25KoRTOtbi1l2qgphIBJpOvIQQrwFoo4NlubJsFugYkJ_iItQG7qMGCAzOFIPHf3lRSBFORXO3tGFdrBtpxxrdTy49_CGU1mNAvgghM-7ka5HPm7UJbt70UB4Mf3ohFfKxcCwo_6_h5BGwL6l19WeQq8Pgib4sBnK9fAqewSm73L_xY4aiBY0vCcSJxSSAVu9ORmYftkhpLFnrpcfjtpvbMNFCj2HPlo2OQi8F3LK6IUrRvI9hztB5IGGKrzwMSdN6ByGsdX0UD73htkoAkXtESL60TEvOj5l0yLpJMqUOgAqueHsHJ_YkFKyBf6jcSJ8JpeKqYfCKrNrjRmjlS27C7SjG8zTS1Hzan7-PHgiJxNMISU1Ts1WIt_XJxkj9gmhgnYp8Vev8Vaxf79d4Kux_B0juN1VzkLgAAZPL-QaqHyqIn8hje5VYGdHx
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 02:42:37 PM
Go and look at the NY Time's minute-by-minute video of the January 6 attack. Proud Boys were trying to get into the Capitol building before President Trump's speech was even ending. A Proud Boy was the first one to start breaking glass (with a stolen police riot shield) in the Capitol. Proud Boys in tactical gear were the people who lead the charge on the east side of the Capitol, and were the ones who were using radios to tell each other where the weak points in the police line were. They did *not* just walk in after other people were inside, they were at the front of an attempt to murder members of Congress and the Vice President.

I don't particularly like giving NY Times clicks anymore, after I realized that they are willingly lying to everyone's face, race-baiting, hiring people who hate whites etc. But is this video the one you're talking about?
https://www.joemygod.com/2021/06/nyt-issues-astounding-minute-by-minute-video-analysis-of-the-cultist-insurrection-at-the-us-capitol-video/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=939e0bf2a3f4712ac7412292e331d011fe3ab007-1625246789-0-AZwadZyfGH_LSgOD-xsFa3f2cMUkcrEO6YvgcLin2mET1OAj6zIEIivhVL_YK9Ll0BXqh9nS0y6XLNXUvi2sZLb478DzBshabyOxeHggsUyVeqgpFN25KoRTOtbi1l2qgphIBJpOvIQQrwFoo4NlubJsFugYkJ_iItQG7qMGCAzOFIPHf3lRSBFORXO3tGFdrBtpxxrdTy49_CGU1mNAvgghM-7ka5HPm7UJbt70UB4Mf3ohFfKxcCwo_6_h5BGwL6l19WeQq8Pgib4sBnK9fAqewSm73L_xY4aiBY0vCcSJxSSAVu9ORmYftkhpLFnrpcfjtpvbMNFCj2HPlo2OQi8F3LK6IUrRvI9hztB5IGGKrzwMSdN6ByGsdX0UD73htkoAkXtESL60TEvOj5l0yLpJMqUOgAqueHsHJ_YkFKyBf6jcSJ8JpeKqYfCKrNrjRmjlS27C7SjG8zTS1Hzan7-PHgiJxNMISU1Ts1WIt_XJxkj9gmhgnYp8Vev8Vaxf79d4Kux_B0juN1VzkLgAAZPL-QaqHyqIn8hje5VYGdHx

That article does indeed have the video I saw. 40 minutes, title "Day of Rage," splash of a Qanon guy yelling at the camera.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: DocJones on July 02, 2021, 02:43:04 PM
OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020?
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/pQw9hVZiSX6a0uRdJgurK-7J3kY=/0x0:3000x2204/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:3000x2204):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/13149625/GettyImages_1039353720.jpg)
Wait.  Sorry I'm confusing this with the "insurrection" of September 2018 when thousands stormed the Capitol in order to disrupt the confirmation hearings of a judge.  Around 1000 were arrested and frog marched out of the Capitol and immediately released.  For some reason they were never prosecuted.  So much for equal treatment under the law.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 02, 2021, 02:49:34 PM
Go and look at the NY Time's minute-by-minute video of the January 6 attack. Proud Boys were trying to get into the Capitol building before President Trump's speech was even ending. A Proud Boy was the first one to start breaking glass (with a stolen police riot shield) in the Capitol. Proud Boys in tactical gear were the people who lead the charge on the east side of the Capitol, and were the ones who were using radios to tell each other where the weak points in the police line were. They did *not* just walk in after other people were inside, they were at the front of an attempt to murder members of Congress and the Vice President.

OK about the video. Problems abound : Proud Boys became famous because Trump "evoked" them? Not mentioning that it was Biden who brought them up in the debate and who arguably made them famous by doing that. Later cutting the part of Trump's speech when he says "peacefully" because that doesn't fit the narrative. They even put voices saying "take the capitol" on top of Trump's voice. Not because they didn't have a better recording, but in case you didn't get the NYT message.

Had to chuckle that they show as part of the evidence a Republican who  says "by and large it was a peaceful protest", when Democrats have been doing just that throughout 2020s riots, which actually affected normal people, burned parts of cities down, and lead to a spiral of violence that still has not abated. They looted right in front of my face in my neighborhood for instance. In both cases it rings hollow, but holy crap how much bigger the Democrat lie was. And I have noticed a refusal on the left to acknowledge that 2020 had something to do with Jan 6. Of course it did, people felt threatened by violence all across the country, but that correlation isn't mentioned even once. They also try to point out the irony of rioters supporting the police, when that irony clearly also goes both ways.

They show a lot of Proud Boys at first (although not Enrique Tarrio, who wasn't there, according to Tarrio because the Proud Boys hadn't planned anything for that day), but during the riots mostly two or three show up. The large group seems to have been dissolved. Could it be that Tarrio is telling the truth? One who is clearly involved (Ethan Nordean) everyone agrees is a member. So yes, members were there during the breach, I'll give you that.

Here's something weird; in most catastrophes etc. numbers of reported dead rise after a while, as what happened becomes more clear and bodies are counted. In this case the number of dead fell from 5 to 2 (both Trump supporters). Sounds a bit like the media were trying hard to make it sound worse than it was.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 02:59:49 PM
OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020?
Wait.  Sorry I'm confusing this with the "insurrection" of September 2018 when thousands stormed the Capitol in order to disrupt the confirmation hearings of a judge.  Around 1000 were arrested and frog marched out of the Capitol and immediately released.  For some reason they were never prosecuted.  So much for equal treatment under the law.

And what was the estimated damage to the Capitol? In dollars? Oh, right, Zero. And the number I get for numbers arrested is around 200, not around 1000. And at least one guy spent a night in jail. So, given minor nitpicks, sure. So what?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 02, 2021, 03:02:37 PM
What I came here to say is this: There may be a racist hate ideology out there, and something that feels uncomfortably like anti-White racism certainly shows up in anti-racism training, but the actual racist hate ideology is not Critical Race Theory, which is much more limited than what Christopher Rufo (see: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory (https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory) ) would like you to believe.

Hi, ScytheSong. Thanks for the discussion. As far as I can tell, both liberals and conservatives have been unclear about what Critical Race Theory (CRT) is. Notably, liberals have still referred to Republican state laws as being "anti-CRT" even though they don't mention CRT and have nothing that prevents teaching about black history. For example, this is the relevant clause in Idaho Bill HB 377,

Quote
No public institution of higher education, school district, or public school, including a public charter school, shall direct or otherwise compel students to personally affirm, adopt, or adhere to any of the following tenets:
  (i) That any sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin is inherently superior or inferior;
  (ii) That individuals should be adversely treated on the basis of their sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin; or
  (iii) That individuals, by virtue of sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin, are inherently responsible for actions committed in the past by other members of the same sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin.
(b) No distinction or classification of students shall be made on account of race or color.
(c) No course of instruction or unit of study directing or otherwise compelling students to personally affirm, adopt, or adhere to any of the tenets identified in paragraph (a) of this subsection shall be used or introduced in any institution of higher education, any school district, or any public school, including a public charter school.

Yet this has still been referred to by liberals as being anti-CRT. I haven't studied CRT, but from a scanning of academic papers, it seems like it is a loose movement that doesn't have a clear core set of principles. This was an article by Gary Peller trying to describe,

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/06/30/critical-race-theory-lightning-rod-opinion-497046

Most CRT "Experts" don't seem to know what the hell they're talking about.

Quote
CRT is not a racialist ideology that declares all whites to be privileged oppressors, and CRT is not taught in public schools.

https://cityordinances.durhamnc.gov/OnBaseAgendaOnline/Documents/ViewDocument/Final-Published%20Attachment%20-%2014757%20-%20RESOLUTION%20-%201%20-%20RESOLUTION%20IN%20SUPPORT%20.pdf?meetingId=464&documentType=Agenda&itemId=22645&publishId=97652&isSection=false

Quote
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Durham City Council calls upon our
state and federal representatives to work toward the immediate, opposition to HB324
and work to ensure black history and critical race theory is included in our students’
public school education:
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: moonsweeper on July 02, 2021, 03:23:34 PM
So until fairly recently, then...

One wonders...Do you lecture your German friends on their Nazi heritage or your Japanese friends on how to absolve themselves for Korea and Nanking?

Heh. Born in 1970, thank you very much. But then, I went to a community college (1988-1990) where the two largest groups were the Black Student Union and the Gay and Lesbian Alliance.  Fundamentalist white boy goes to college and meets people who aren't like him, it's an old, old story.

Christ, that's even worse...I was willing to give you a little leeway for being young...sad.

You actually had to get to college in order to realize that minorities had been treated badly and everyone should be judged individually based on their own actions??

Hell I grew up in an area with less than half a percent non-white population, and we learned that from our parents and history classes in school.

And, no. My German friends get more crap for the entire Wars of Religion and Cuius regio, eius religio thing. I had Japanese Nissei and Issei friends growing up, but we mostly talked about Judo and what the best Japanese food was.

So, I was right.  It is just the white Americans who have to recognize their inherent racism and the blood debt they owe.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: SHARK on July 02, 2021, 03:25:48 PM
Greetings!

Critical Race Theory is pure anti-white RACISM deeply rooted in Marxist ideology and given an academic glossed paintjob.

All of the piggy-squealing in defense of Critical Race Theory amounts to nothing more than obtuse gaslighting promoted by anti-white racists, race-grifting charlatans, demagogues, and other malevolent agent-provocateurs that seek the corruption and degradation of America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You are wrong. But  then, what are you "always faithful" to, Mr. Shark? The United States of America, its people and Constitution, or just the kind of people who look and think like you? You seemed to be plenty happy when the constitution was being trampled on by a bunch of White Supremacist idiots back in January.

Greetings!

Heh. No, I'm not wrong. I know what Critical Race Theory is all about. It is exactly as I described it. Anyone who wants to think about it differently is sadly ignorant, uninformed, or brainwashed.

I am faithful to that which is worthy of being faithful to. My God, Family, Corps, and Country. As for people and what they look like? I don't happen to give a damn if someone "Looks like me" or not. They can be purple, zebra striped, whatever. As for "Thinking like me"--well, yeah, obviously, there is some importance to that and having essential compatibilities and commonalties. Fucking racists, Marxists, anarchists, ANTIFA, BLM thugs and Woke Commissars have "thinking" that makes living them seem impossible, so fuck them.

I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 04:03:01 PM
OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020?
Wait.  Sorry I'm confusing this with the "insurrection" of September 2018 when thousands stormed the Capitol in order to disrupt the confirmation hearings of a judge.  Around 1000 were arrested and frog marched out of the Capitol and immediately released.  For some reason they were never prosecuted.  So much for equal treatment under the law.

And what was the estimated damage to the Capitol? In dollars? Oh, right, Zero. And the number I get for numbers arrested is around 200, not around 1000. And at least one guy spent a night in jail. So, given minor nitpicks, sure. So what?
"They got insurance."
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: DocJones on July 02, 2021, 04:08:15 PM
And what was the estimated damage to the Capitol? In dollars? Oh, right, Zero. And the number I get for numbers arrested is around 200, not around 1000. And at least one guy spent a night in jail. So, given minor nitpicks, sure. So what?
I don't think it was taken as seriously because it was mostly chicks and effeminate men.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 04:45:19 PM

I'm not saying these are inherently in Critical Race Theory, but they are perceived to be, by people on both sides.
None of that's Critical Race Theory. You're just adding a lot of confusion to the issue.

CRT starts with the assumption that everything is racist. Every person, every institution, and every interaction. That it's the norm. This is sometimes called systemic racism. Going deeper, it claims that race is an artificial construct created by white people, who used it to give themselves power, and exclude other people. They further claim that since white people benefit from it, they have a vested interest in maintaining the system, and usually can't even see how the structure of everything favors them. These are the unquestionable tenets of the movement.

This means Critical Race theorists never look for proof that racism exists in any situation. Instead, they assume that racism always exists, and then try to explain how racism is inherent in every situation. While it was a reaction to the Civil Rights movement, CRT believes the movement failed to address the historical inequities around race, and has come to reject almost all of the liberal principles that underlie it, including concepts like equality under the law. It also rejects reasoning and evidence in favor of lived experiences and feelings.

CRT is also an activist movement. I'm not saying that a few Critical Race Theorists are activists. I'm saying one of the core principals of CRT scholarship is overturning the social order. It doesn't believe in incremental improvements, but revolution. And if you're not actively fighting all the time, you're considered part of the problem.

I don't think anything I've said above would be seriously disputed, by either side. This is all covered in basic videos or introductory textbooks by key Critical Race Theory advocates and scholars like Robin DiAngelo, as well as by opponents like James Lindsay.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: KingCheops on July 02, 2021, 04:55:59 PM
OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020?
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/pQw9hVZiSX6a0uRdJgurK-7J3kY=/0x0:3000x2204/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:3000x2204):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/13149625/GettyImages_1039353720.jpg)
Wait.  Sorry I'm confusing this with the "insurrection" of September 2018 when thousands stormed the Capitol in order to disrupt the confirmation hearings of a judge.  Around 1000 were arrested and frog marched out of the Capitol and immediately released.  For some reason they were never prosecuted.  So much for equal treatment under the law.

Not to mention they were actually riding the elevators alongside the Senators and screaming in their ears.  They also blatantly had organizers standing outside with wads of cash for bail money openly calling out for people to take some and go get arrested.

Edit:  It's doubly extra fucking hilarious if you take into account the fact that DemonKKKrats got these retards all worked up over abortion when BK literally told that cunt Feinstein that he supported the precedent set by Roe v. Wade during the Judiciary Committee hearing.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 02, 2021, 05:05:47 PM
Yes, Critical Race Theory is an "intellectual" pursuit that has no room for other explanations. Imagine a student working on a CRT thesis, with the subject being exploring racism in, say, New Jersey pottery making. And the student then coming back to the profs and supervisors at the university saying "uh, I couldn't find any racism in NJ pottery". The student will simply be told that they're not looking closely enough. They would twist and wring whatever they have, using all sorts of sophistry and obscure phrasings (and many of them are trained in this, often coming from backgrounds in studying literature). This is why they keep finding "racism" in the most absurd places.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on July 02, 2021, 05:09:19 PM
Question in my mind is whether ScytheSong is just trying to rile people up or is being sincere. It's hard to believe sincerity when engaging in such bad tactics. Jump into a thread, make a bunch of questionable statements meant to frame discussion, then derail the whole thread by being evasive.

Just to try and keep this on track, much of critiques of power from figures such as Foucault that form the foundation of CRT have valuable insights worth paying attention to. Cynical Theories by Lindsay & Pluckrose does a fairly good job at showing the genealogy of these ideas.

The issue we see when it comes to CRT is its particularist anti-white agenda and focus on legalism rather than real-world harm.

It's pretty obvious when you look at the language they've purposefully constructed, talking about "White Fragility" "Whiteness" etc. Of course the claim is that these aren't meant specifically as ethnic markers. Lets be real -- It's explicitly targeting Whites/Europeans, and that's precisely why CRT has any degree of popularity, because it trades on racially-motived envy and hatred. Without that emotional hook it's just up-its-own-ass philosophizing about the nature of power and privilege, which we've already seen has no blood to actually motivate people.

What I've never had explained to me by a CRT person is why it's bad for European people to build societies that benefit European peoples. Seems like it's perfectly okay for Arabs to build Arab countries to benefit Arabs, for Africans to build African countries to benefit Africans, for Asians to build Asian countries to benefit Asians -- In many cases these people are doing shit that is way more shady and nefarious than what CRT people complain about -- But only European peoples are not allowed to build their own societies with their own rules for the benefit of themselves & their posterity.

Not playing that game.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 05:29:07 PM
Greetings!

Critical Race Theory is pure anti-white RACISM deeply rooted in Marxist ideology and given an academic glossed paintjob.

All of the piggy-squealing in defense of Critical Race Theory amounts to nothing more than obtuse gaslighting promoted by anti-white racists, race-grifting charlatans, demagogues, and other malevolent agent-provocateurs that seek the corruption and degradation of America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You are wrong. But  then, what are you "always faithful" to, Mr. Shark? The United States of America, its people and Constitution, or just the kind of people who look and think like you? You seemed to be plenty happy when the constitution was being trampled on by a bunch of White Supremacist idiots back in January.

Greetings!

Heh. No, I'm not wrong. I know what Critical Race Theory is all about. It is exactly as I described it. Anyone who wants to think about it differently is sadly ignorant, uninformed, or brainwashed.

I am faithful to that which is worthy of being faithful to. My God, Family, Corps, and Country. As for people and what they look like? I don't happen to give a damn if someone "Looks like me" or not. They can be purple, zebra striped, whatever. As for "Thinking like me"--well, yeah, obviously, there is some importance to that and having essential compatibilities and commonalties. Fucking racists, Marxists, anarchists, ANTIFA, BLM thugs and Woke Commissars have "thinking" that makes living them seem impossible, so fuck them.

I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: jhkim on July 02, 2021, 05:40:40 PM
What I've never had explained to me by a CRT person is why it's bad for European people to build societies that benefit European peoples. Seems like it's perfectly okay for Arabs to build Arab countries to benefit Arabs, for Africans to build African countries to benefit Africans, for Asians to build Asian countries to benefit Asians -- In many cases these people are doing shit that is way more shady and nefarious than what CRT people complain about -- But only European peoples are not allowed to build their own societies with their own rules for the benefit of themselves & their posterity.

I'm not a CRT person -- but by my book, it is definitely *not* okay for China to discriminate against the Uyghurs, or for Myanmar to discriminate against the Rohingya, or for Japan to discriminate against ethnic Koreans. Creating racist, sexist, and otherwise prejudiced societies is something I am opposed to wherever they are. There are plenty of other people who support these causes.

My father grew up under Japanese rule in Korea, where he would be beaten if he spoke Korean in school -- despite being Korean. They were deliberately trying to stamp out Korean culture and impose their own onto Korean children. This sort of imperialism is not OK. By the same token, Indian boarding schools where Indian children were forcibly indoctrinated were also not OK.

I realize there are some people who exclusively focus on prejudice and imperialism by white people, but just because they are wrong, that doesn't mean that prejudice and imperialism are okay.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: SHARK on July 02, 2021, 06:04:29 PM
Greetings!

Critical Race Theory is pure anti-white RACISM deeply rooted in Marxist ideology and given an academic glossed paintjob.

All of the piggy-squealing in defense of Critical Race Theory amounts to nothing more than obtuse gaslighting promoted by anti-white racists, race-grifting charlatans, demagogues, and other malevolent agent-provocateurs that seek the corruption and degradation of America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You are wrong. But  then, what are you "always faithful" to, Mr. Shark? The United States of America, its people and Constitution, or just the kind of people who look and think like you? You seemed to be plenty happy when the constitution was being trampled on by a bunch of White Supremacist idiots back in January.

Greetings!

Heh. No, I'm not wrong. I know what Critical Race Theory is all about. It is exactly as I described it. Anyone who wants to think about it differently is sadly ignorant, uninformed, or brainwashed.

I am faithful to that which is worthy of being faithful to. My God, Family, Corps, and Country. As for people and what they look like? I don't happen to give a damn if someone "Looks like me" or not. They can be purple, zebra striped, whatever. As for "Thinking like me"--well, yeah, obviously, there is some importance to that and having essential compatibilities and commonalties. Fucking racists, Marxists, anarchists, ANTIFA, BLM thugs and Woke Commissars have "thinking" that makes living them seem impossible, so fuck them.

I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?

Greetings!

I am not worried about the US Constitution being endangered or violated by whoever was at the Capitol during January 6, 2021. It is just more hyped-up hysterical nonsense being pushed, framed, and exploited by the Marxist Democrats throughout the government to actually violate our rights and liberties, and to gather ever more power and control into their hands.

Furthermore, numerous political leaders, media officials, and more, screamed that when the BLM and ANTIFA mobs were burning, looting, and murdering people and devastating cities all over the country--well, the mobs were just expressing their pain and rage.

So, the angry mobs at the Capitol were also then merely expressing their pain and rage. If it's good for BLM and ANTIFA, then the same policy is good for everyone else, too. That's how reality and justice gets worked out. I suppose in our new, Balkanized reality of clown-world, with fat, Marxist Democrat politicians abandoning any true loyalty to America, and instead embracing their calling of being Marxist Demagogues seeking to eagerly corrupt and destroy America, we can expect more. More riots, more violence. More resistance everywhere.

I would have more faith in the self-righteous exclamations and pronouncements from the government if they had ruthlessly hunted down every violent member of BLM and ANTIFA, and strung them the fuck up from a tall tree. Long, long rows of trees, decorated with those scum. Well, that certainly hasn't happened. Expecting real consistency and justice from a government full of cock-sucking Marxists and self-seeking bureaucrats eager to circle-jerk themselves into embracing any ideology as long as their ass gets buttered is futile. I'm certainly not holding my breath.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on July 02, 2021, 06:14:34 PM
...

I realize there are some people who exclusively focus on prejudice and imperialism by white people, but just because they are wrong, that doesn't mean that prejudice and imperialism are okay.

I agree with that sentiment, and I think most people probably do. I am in favor of the right of all peoples to self-govern. The only reason I even bring that up is because the hostile sentiment from CRT/Woke people is such that I don't want to live in areas where they wield political power (and violent mobs). I don't want any part of participating in a state that is going to try and smear me & my kids with racial guilt for stuff we never did, steal our property, and treat us like criminals.

I'd be happy to part ways with them.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 06:16:48 PM
Question in my mind is whether ScytheSong is just trying to rile people up or is being sincere. It's hard to believe sincerity when engaging in such bad tactics. Jump into a thread, make a bunch of questionable statements meant to frame discussion, then derail the whole thread by being evasive.

Just to try and keep this on track, much of critiques of power from figures such as Foucault that form the foundation of CRT have valuable insights worth paying attention to. Cynical Theories by Lindsay & Pluckrose does a fairly good job at showing the genealogy of these ideas.

The issue we see when it comes to CRT is its particularist anti-white agenda and focus on legalism rather than real-world harm.

It's pretty obvious when you look at the language they've purposefully constructed, talking about "White Fragility" "Whiteness" etc. Of course the claim is that these aren't meant specifically as ethnic markers. Lets be real -- It's explicitly targeting Whites/Europeans, and that's precisely why CRT has any degree of popularity, because it trades on racially-motived envy and hatred. Without that emotional hook it's just up-its-own-ass philosophizing about the nature of power and privilege, which we've already seen has no blood to actually motivate people.

What I've never had explained to me by a CRT person is why it's bad for European people to build societies that benefit European peoples. Seems like it's perfectly okay for Arabs to build Arab countries to benefit Arabs, for Africans to build African countries to benefit Africans, for Asians to build Asian countries to benefit Asians -- In many cases these people are doing shit that is way more shady and nefarious than what CRT people complain about -- But only European peoples are not allowed to build their own societies with their own rules for the benefit of themselves & their posterity.

Not playing that game.

So, one thing to note, I refuse to conflate Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility and related anti-racism training (some of which is a scam, including taking her comments out of context and without permission -- she sued Coca-Cola over this) and Critical Race Theory. The former is almost all either badly framed, uses jargon that is worse than useless, so basic that anyone who has had any exposure to the issues involved rolls their eyes, or is an outright grift. I can only think of one seminar that is actually well built for use in anti-racism training, but it involves actually going to and living in another country as a minority for a week.

Critical Race Theory, the way I understand and use it, is not that. CRT is a way of examining the legal history of the United States (that could be extended to other places, I suppose -- Japanese treatment of Koreans and other Gaijin, Native Hawai'ians and Haoles, Australian Whites and their aboriginal and Chinese minorities  are just a few examples off the top of my head) to examine how legal systems were used to keep the majority in power and the minority out of power, even in places where they were no longer technically a majority. Mind you, the construction of race that they use seems simplistic to me, but the times and places that they are examining were equally simplistic.

The problem continues to be that, because I haven't bent on this distinction, I can be seen as eating my cake and having it still -- I'll write a lot of folks off who are blathering about how evil CRT is because I know that what they're talking about is anti-racism, not CRT as I understand it.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: moonsweeper on July 02, 2021, 06:25:58 PM
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 02, 2021, 06:48:05 PM
This is from a CRT textbook introduction:

The critical race theory (CRT) movement is a collection of activists and scholars interested in studying and transform- ing the relationship among race, racism, and power. The movement considers many of the same issues that conven- tional civil rights and ethnic studies discourses take up, but places them in a broader perspective that includes econom- ics, history, context, group- and self-interest, and even feel- ings and the unconscious. Unlike traditional civil rights, which embraces incrementalism and step-by-step progress, critical race theory questions the very foundations of the lib- eral order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, En- lightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitu- tional law.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 02, 2021, 06:57:47 PM
But wait, there is more  ;D

As the reader will see, critical race theory builds on the in- sights of two previous movements, critical legal studies and radical feminism, to both of which it owes a large debt.


All of this from:
Critical Race Theory An Introduction
By Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: SHARK on July 02, 2021, 07:28:13 PM
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Greetings!

That's right, Moonsweeper! You don't agree with his "understanding" of CRT, then that just shows how YOU don't understand CRT. Amazing. More and more people are quite clear in their understanding precisely of what CRT is--and reject it as terrible, racist, Marxist-inspired garbage.

The condescending self-righteousness reminds me of a Liberal jello-brained professor I had in college who essentially said the same thing--"Well, if you were as educated and well-traveled as I am, you would agree with my interpretation."

CRT isn't some deep, complex fucking mystery. People understand it very clearly--and have justly condemned it, and resist such bullshit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 08:05:57 PM
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 08:16:52 PM
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 08:19:33 PM
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

You don't need firearms to kill people when you have baseball bats, police-grade zipties, and a gallows.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Snowman0147 on July 02, 2021, 08:24:04 PM
To the trash bin you go ScytheSong.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 02, 2021, 08:43:06 PM
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

(https://mablab.org/post/ropensci_files/wdijr.jpg)
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on July 02, 2021, 08:44:46 PM
Yeah not sure I want to continue to entertain this level of trollery/obtuseness.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 02, 2021, 08:48:48 PM
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

  I wince when I see people pretending to have actually read all of Das Capital and act like they were awake/remembered much of it.  Manifesto is manageable, but Marx was a terrible fucking writer.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 08:50:27 PM
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

You don't need firearms to kill people when you have baseball bats, police-grade zipties, and a gallows.
Zip ties have killed more people than covid!
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Snowman0147 on July 02, 2021, 08:52:44 PM
(https://mablab.org/post/ropensci_files/wdijr.jpg)

I am stealing this meme.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 02, 2021, 08:54:43 PM
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

You don't need firearms to kill people when you have baseball bats, police-grade zipties, and a gallows.
Zip ties have killed more people than covid!

  Baseball bats (and blugeons) have killed more people than AR-15s.   Scythe song is on to something, I didnt know that had a sweet gallows set up.  I guess the dumb motherfucker doesnt realize you are not getting past the guys with guns with baseball bats though. 
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 08:55:53 PM
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

You don't need firearms to kill people when you have baseball bats, police-grade zipties, and a gallows.
Zip ties have killed more people than covid!

  Baseball bats (and blugeons) have killed more people than AR-15s.   This guy is on to something, I didnt know that had a sweet gallows set up.  I guess the dumb motherfucker doesnt realize you are not getting past the guys with guns with baseball bats though.
It's not a real gun unless it has a baseball bat.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Shasarak on July 02, 2021, 09:17:21 PM
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?

You don't need firearms to kill people when you have baseball bats, police-grade zipties, and a gallows.

They were going to use the Wuhan virus!
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: SHARK on July 02, 2021, 09:29:20 PM
Greetings!

Well, Communism, in very basic form, *can* work. We know this from history, as well as current anthropological and sociological study. However, the ingredients that go into the basic recipe for some level of working success have very little in common with modern Communists or Marxists. The essential requirements for a successful communal society embracing a more "Communistic Style" are the following attributes:

(1) RELIGIOUS/CULTURAL UNITY: Singular Religion/Culture of all participants

(2) SMALL SCALE: The community is--and remains--small in scale. A few hundred, maybe a few thousand people at most living in such a community.

(3) VOLUNTARY PARTICIPATION: Everyone living within such a community does so entirely voluntarily, of their own free will, and suffering no form of imposed punishment or retribution against them for seeking to leave such a community, and live in an entirely different kind of community.

The historical examples I can think of are some communities in the Bible; Various American Indian tribes; and the Jewish Kabutzes. All, interestingly, also embrace each of the three essential attributes in order to approach any kind of working success.

None of that really stands as anything workable or realistic in the modern world, with nations of hundreds of millions of people, vastly different political, cultural, and religious views and ways of life.

So, at the end of the day, the naïve, moron modern Marxist can choke on the deeper truth that what they support as an ideology is deeply unchristian, wicked, tyrannical, and evil.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: jhkim on July 02, 2021, 09:30:24 PM
This is from a CRT textbook introduction:

The critical race theory (CRT) movement is a collection of activists and scholars interested in studying and transform- ing the relationship among race, racism, and power. The movement considers many of the same issues that conven- tional civil rights and ethnic studies discourses take up, but places them in a broader perspective that includes econom- ics, history, context, group- and self-interest, and even feel- ings and the unconscious. Unlike traditional civil rights, which embraces incrementalism and step-by-step progress, critical race theory questions the very foundations of the lib- eral order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, En- lightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitu- tional law.

Thanks, Trond. To be specific, that seems to be from this book by Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/344649.Critical_Race_Theory_An_Introduction

The rejection of neutral principles sounds like what I was talking about the rejection of race-neutral merit as an ideal.


I'm not saying these are inherently in Critical Race Theory, but they are perceived to be, by people on both sides.
None of that's Critical Race Theory. You're just adding a lot of confusion to the issue.

CRT starts with the assumption that everything is racist. Every person, every institution, and every interaction. That it's the norm. This is sometimes called systemic racism. Going deeper, it claims that race is an artificial construct created by white people, who used it to give themselves power, and exclude other people. They further claim that since white people benefit from it, they have a vested interest in maintaining the system, and usually can't even see how the structure of everything favors them. These are the unquestionable tenets of the movement.

This means Critical Race theorists never look for proof that racism exists in any situation.

I haven't read anything that called itself Critical Race Theory, but I've read about systemic racism from more traditional social science in my education studies - like Beverly Tatum's "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?" and ​Michelle Alexander's "The New Jim Crow". Those are very concerned with looking at the data, but it is difficult to absolutely prove racism exists from social science data. Proof of any motivation or bias is difficult.

Some approaches assume that there is no racial prejudice, and only admit it exists if it can be definitely proven -- but in nearly any case, someone can propose alternate explanations. For example, maybe people are simply biased against names like Jamal rather than names like Greg, and it is the name rather than race. I think given the difficulty of absolute proof in social science, this sets the bar too high.

My point is that there is a lot of disagreement over a lot of what is considered Critical Race Theory, like systemic racism. I'm not expressing any expert opinion over that - but that's semantics, not a statement of position. What we're more concerned about is specific positions regarding race and racism, not the semantics of CRT. As I mentioned, many of the supposedly "anti-CRT" laws have no mention of CRT at all.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 09:39:20 PM
My point is that there is a lot of disagreement over a lot of what is considered Critical Race Theory, like systemic racism. I'm not expressing any expert opinion over that - but that's semantics, not a statement of position. What we're more concerned about is specific positions regarding race and racism, not the semantics of CRT. As I mentioned, many of the supposedly "anti-CRT" laws have no mention of CRT at all.
That's simply wrong. Look at what I said, and compare it to Trond's quotes. They're almost exactly the same. This isn't an accident. If you read almost any general book about Critical Race Theory, you'll find the same basic description, usually in the first chapter. This is not a case where there's a lot of confusion over what the term means. Everyone agrees on the basic elements that make up Critical Race Theory.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 02, 2021, 10:06:53 PM
My point is that there is a lot of disagreement over a lot of what is considered Critical Race Theory, like systemic racism. I'm not expressing any expert opinion over that - but that's semantics, not a statement of position. What we're more concerned about is specific positions regarding race and racism, not the semantics of CRT. As I mentioned, many of the supposedly "anti-CRT" laws have no mention of CRT at all.
That's simply wrong. Look at what I said, and compare it to Trond's quotes. They're almost exactly the same. This isn't an accident. If you read almost any general book about Critical Race Theory, you'll find the same basic description, usually in the first chapter. This is not a case where there's a lot of confusion over what the term means. Everyone agrees on the basic elements that make up Critical Race Theory.

Yawp. If you want to get to the root of the issue, just ask the question "What is a Critical Theory?"
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 10:24:12 PM
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

  I wince when I see people pretending to have actually read all of Das Capital and act like they were awake/remembered much of it.  Manifesto is manageable, but Marx was a terrible fucking writer.

More like Engels was a fucking terrible editor. I know I got through all of the Manifesto, and I think I finished Das Kapital. But my reading list was insane when I was in Junior High and Highschool (because my dad was *really* *really* into giving me a Liberal Education (tm)). Plato's Republic and Discourses, Huxley's Brave New World, The Analects of Confucius, Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, and a selection of Existentialists from Dostoevsky to Sartre. As well as Camus' The Stranger, Dianetics, the Book of Mormon, and the Bible (the last with Koine Greek lessons so I could read "the original"). I've been clocked reading theology textbooks at a page per minute for content. My brain does not work normally, I don't think.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ogre on July 02, 2021, 10:51:26 PM
My brain does not work normally, I don't think.
Yeah I see that, you agree with CRT.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 11:02:25 PM
My brain does not work normally, I don't think.
Yeah I see that, you agree with CRT.

CRT comes across as downright moderate compared to Liberation Theology, which I can go on at insane lengths about, too. (Hint: Liberation Theology really is a postmodern Marxist endeavor and I don't like it at all.)
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: DocJones on July 02, 2021, 11:08:39 PM
Scythe song is on to something, I didnt know that had a sweet gallows set up.
Well it was more of a toy gallows.   The noose was improperly tied, probably by a Boy Scout (since they don't learn the knot).

(https://media.zenfs.com/en-us/usa_today_opinion_532/05c2190dc79a08a14faf9d0f118dd2a3)
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: moonsweeper on July 02, 2021, 11:10:45 PM
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

I never called anyone a Marxist...I pointed out that you were using the same tired old argument people have been using to defend communism forever.

...and anyone with your obvious knowledge of theology, etc., etc. would know that while Christianity may have ties to some of Marx's ideas, Christianity is a 'voluntarily' entered compact.

...and btw, where can I get these fancy 'police-grade' zip ties...all I have are the extra heavy-duty ones I picked at the hardware store.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 02, 2021, 11:23:10 PM
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

I never called anyone a Marxist...I pointed out that you were using the same tired old argument people have been using to defend communism forever.

...and anyone with your obvious knowledge of theology, etc., etc. would know that while Christianity may have ties to some of Marx's ideas, Christianity is a 'voluntarily' entered compact.

...and btw, where can I get these fancy 'police-grade' zip ties...all I have are the extra heavy-duty ones I picked at the hardware store.

I failed at being funny. I can only defend myself by saying I have a very strange sense of humor/whimsey.

On the more serious question, I haven't done it, but a friend of mine in the security business gets the police-style zipties (the ones that can be used to actually restrain an adult male without stripping under pressure and start already looped)  from what he calls his "cop shop", a combination gun, military surplus, and police gear store. I think it was in Federal Way, Washington when last I heard.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 02, 2021, 11:39:03 PM

...and btw, where can I get these fancy 'police-grade' zip ties...all I have are the extra heavy-duty ones I picked at the hardware store.
The cops were handing them out at the door of the Capitol.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on July 02, 2021, 11:40:53 PM
To the trash bin you go ScytheSong.

Again, probably.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Spinachcat on July 02, 2021, 11:50:45 PM
Homeschool your kids or they will be indoctrinated. Pick one.

I'm an ex-special education teacher. Let me assure you that screaming at school boards changes nothing. Even state rulings will just mean they rebrand CRT and the leftist teachers feel the "moral duty" to double down on indoctrination.

And understand how teacher's unions work. If a teacher "gets in trouble" and "loses their job", the union and the district just shuffles them into another school.

Thus, teachers in states where CRT is outlawed can teach CRT until caught, then keep teaching CRT until fired, then get moved to another school (or work from home via zoom) where they will go back to teaching CRT.

Fortunately, homeschooling has never been more popular with more available resources so parents willing to step up for the kids will find local and/or online supportive communities.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 09:00:26 AM
This is from a CRT textbook introduction:

The critical race theory (CRT) movement is a collection of activists and scholars interested in studying and transform- ing the relationship among race, racism, and power. The movement considers many of the same issues that conven- tional civil rights and ethnic studies discourses take up, but places them in a broader perspective that includes econom- ics, history, context, group- and self-interest, and even feel- ings and the unconscious. Unlike traditional civil rights, which embraces incrementalism and step-by-step progress, critical race theory questions the very foundations of the lib- eral order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, En- lightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitu- tional law.

Thanks, Trond. To be specific, that seems to be from this book by Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/344649.Critical_Race_Theory_An_Introduction

The rejection of neutral principles sounds like what I was talking about the rejection of race-neutral merit as an ideal.


I'm not saying these are inherently in Critical Race Theory, but they are perceived to be, by people on both sides.
None of that's Critical Race Theory. You're just adding a lot of confusion to the issue.

CRT starts with the assumption that everything is racist. Every person, every institution, and every interaction. That it's the norm. This is sometimes called systemic racism. Going deeper, it claims that race is an artificial construct created by white people, who used it to give themselves power, and exclude other people. They further claim that since white people benefit from it, they have a vested interest in maintaining the system, and usually can't even see how the structure of everything favors them. These are the unquestionable tenets of the movement.

This means Critical Race theorists never look for proof that racism exists in any situation.

I haven't read anything that called itself Critical Race Theory, but I've read about systemic racism from more traditional social science in my education studies - like Beverly Tatum's "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?" and ​Michelle Alexander's "The New Jim Crow". Those are very concerned with looking at the data, but it is difficult to absolutely prove racism exists from social science data. Proof of any motivation or bias is difficult.

Some approaches assume that there is no racial prejudice, and only admit it exists if it can be definitely proven -- but in nearly any case, someone can propose alternate explanations. For example, maybe people are simply biased against names like Jamal rather than names like Greg, and it is the name rather than race. I think given the difficulty of absolute proof in social science, this sets the bar too high.

My point is that there is a lot of disagreement over a lot of what is considered Critical Race Theory, like systemic racism. I'm not expressing any expert opinion over that - but that's semantics, not a statement of position. What we're more concerned about is specific positions regarding race and racism, not the semantics of CRT. As I mentioned, many of the supposedly "anti-CRT" laws have no mention of CRT at all.

   CRT is nebulous by design.  It is anti white, and often makes a whole bunch of other racist assumptions and proclamations.   The fact its proponents always fall to "that isnt even CRT". Well that sounds a whole lot like the priests telling the masses they can not decipher the word of God.  I can tell you this,  if people keep pushing the anti white thing (and I do not care what any one calls it, that is a lot of what the real problem is) those people may finally create the monster they are so terrified of.  It is one thing to bully and beat a tiny minority, historically in this country that does not work out for the long game;  it is idiocy to attempt to do the same against an armed majority.   I could be wrong though, propagandists have never had the apparatus to push their bullshit in so many areas of life as they have now.   There are just some lines that are red, and can not be crossed without some other boxes checked. 
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: ScytheSong on July 03, 2021, 09:18:29 AM
Damn things are called flex cuffs, zip-cuffs, or disposable handcuffs. Whee.

And now I'm off for a vacation with my wife and kids, something most of you probably know nothing about. See you all in about a week.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: moonsweeper on July 03, 2021, 10:16:22 AM
What odds is anyone offering on the children in that household growing up with mental issues?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 03, 2021, 10:21:53 AM
Damn things are called flex cuffs, zip-cuffs, or disposable handcuffs. Whee.

And now I'm off for a vacation with my wife and kids, something most of you probably know nothing about. See you all in about a week.

What an ass. At least the quality of posting here will improve by that much for about a week.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 03, 2021, 10:23:31 AM
What odds is anyone offering on the children in that household growing up with mental issues?

I doubt he's even got kids or a wife or has been to college. I'm starting to suspect another sockpuppet troll.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Snowman0147 on July 03, 2021, 10:31:05 AM
What odds is anyone offering on the children in that household growing up with mental issues?

I doubt he's even got kids or a wife or has been to college. I'm starting to suspect another sockpuppet troll.

Pundit and the admins need to do some gatekeeping.  I already know that well liked long time user asked to have his account deleted and left this site.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: SHARK on July 03, 2021, 10:36:48 AM
What odds is anyone offering on the children in that household growing up with mental issues?

I doubt he's even got kids or a wife or has been to college. I'm starting to suspect another sockpuppet troll.

Pundit and the admins need to do some gatekeeping.  I already know that well liked long time user asked to have his account deleted and left this site.

Greetings!

WHO, Snowman?

Why did this member you are talking about leave the website here?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 10:48:11 AM
What odds is anyone offering on the children in that household growing up with mental issues?

I doubt he's even got kids or a wife or has been to college. I'm starting to suspect another sockpuppet troll.

Pundit and the admins need to do some gatekeeping.  I already know that well liked long time user asked to have his account deleted and left this site.
I'm pretty sure gatekeeping is exactly what Pundit is opposed to. If someone left, that's their choice and it should be respected.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:00:04 AM
  I agree on the no gate keeping.  If the person is a sock puppet, I suspect it will show at some point.  I do not get that signal as yet.  As for the wife and kids...seemed an odd thing to mention, especially along with a vacation, but far from the biggest oddity I have read on the site.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Snowman0147 on July 03, 2021, 11:20:42 AM
What odds is anyone offering on the children in that household growing up with mental issues?

I doubt he's even got kids or a wife or has been to college. I'm starting to suspect another sockpuppet troll.

Pundit and the admins need to do some gatekeeping.  I already know that well liked long time user asked to have his account deleted and left this site.

Greetings!

WHO, Snowman?

Why did this member you are talking about leave the website here?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I will tell you in pm.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:28:07 AM
What odds is anyone offering on the children in that household growing up with mental issues?

I doubt he's even got kids or a wife or has been to college. I'm starting to suspect another sockpuppet troll.

Pundit and the admins need to do some gatekeeping.  I already know that well liked long time user asked to have his account deleted and left this site.

Greetings!

WHO, Snowman?

Why did this member you are talking about leave the website here?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I will tell you in pm.

   Wasn't it the dude who posted the naked forest girl in an attempt to get banned?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Snowman0147 on July 03, 2021, 11:58:43 AM
   Wasn't it the dude who posted the naked forest girl in an attempt to get banned?

If that is Brad, then yes.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Doc Sammy on July 03, 2021, 12:27:16 PM
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

Can't tell if trolling or just stupid
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 01:22:28 PM
   Wasn't it the dude who posted the naked forest girl in an attempt to get banned?

If that is Brad, then yes.
Oh, you said "well liked" and I didn't figure you could possibly be talking about B-rad.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 03, 2021, 01:49:47 PM
You get banned for naked forest girls now? Asking for a friend ;D
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Shasarak on July 03, 2021, 05:06:42 PM
Damn things are called flex cuffs, zip-cuffs, or disposable handcuffs. Whee.

And now I'm off for a vacation with my wife and kids, something most of you probably know nothing about. See you all in about a week.

That’s true, I know nothing of your wife and kids.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Doc Sammy on July 03, 2021, 05:39:55 PM
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Sure it has. Just read the second chapter of Acts in the Bible. Sts. Peter and James were the first Communists, and Marxism is a deeply Christian philosophy. Not that the Leninism, Trotskyism, or Maoism that followed were at all Christian, but they sure wanted to be Marxist, even though neither Russia nor China had either a true proletariat nor well-developed enough means of production to make a real go of it other than in limited areas.

Not to mention that most labor unions are far closer to Marx and Engels' ideal of communism than the People's Republic of China has ever managed.

Every time I see you people using the term "Marxist", I also wince (just like when you're using "woke") because it doesn't seem like you have any idea what Karl Marx actually wrote, or who Friedrich Engels might even be, or what Marxism actually is other than "Something I dislike for reasons I can't explain other than it seems to be liberal or leftist."

  I wince when I see people pretending to have actually read all of Das Capital and act like they were awake/remembered much of it.  Manifesto is manageable, but Marx was a terrible fucking writer.

More like Engels was a fucking terrible editor. I know I got through all of the Manifesto, and I think I finished Das Kapital. But my reading list was insane when I was in Junior High and Highschool (because my dad was *really* *really* into giving me a Liberal Education (tm)). Plato's Republic and Discourses, Huxley's Brave New World, The Analects of Confucius, Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, and a selection of Existentialists from Dostoevsky to Sartre. As well as Camus' The Stranger, Dianetics, the Book of Mormon, and the Bible (the last with Koine Greek lessons so I could read "the original"). I've been clocked reading theology textbooks at a page per minute for content. My brain does not work normally, I don't think.

I find it very ironic that "anti-capitalist" leftist zealots such as yourself are just useful idiots and unwitting pawns for neoliberal corporatists.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:34:55 PM
   Wasn't it the dude who posted the naked forest girl in an attempt to get banned?

If that is Brad, then yes.

   Was not Brad.   I am surprised he would leave.  Some of his interactions did look to me as if he was probably turning red IRL while typing them (and I can understand that). 
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:36:17 PM
You get banned for naked forest girls now? Asking for a friend ;D

   I think Pundit deleted the pic, and refused to delete the dude's history (was not Brad).  I think he didnt ban him either.   Edited to add.....or was it Brad after a name change?  hmm.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Snowman0147 on July 04, 2021, 12:34:36 AM
You get banned for naked forest girls now? Asking for a friend ;D

   I think Pundit deleted the pic, and refused to delete the dude's history (was not Brad).  I think he didnt ban him either.   Edited to add.....or was it Brad after a name change?  hmm.

The discord was named Brad and I had not seen Brad at all lately on this site.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: moonsweeper on July 04, 2021, 12:51:28 AM
He changed his name here before he 'left'.
I quoted him from an older post the other day and in my quote it showed as Brad.

and also this...

https://babylonbee.com/news/mounting-evidence-indicates-critical-race-theory-escaped-from-a-lab-in-a-college-humanities-department (https://babylonbee.com/news/mounting-evidence-indicates-critical-race-theory-escaped-from-a-lab-in-a-college-humanities-department)


 ;D
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Merrill on July 07, 2021, 09:11:50 AM
While CRT is kept deliberately nebulous, as others here have pointed out, there are some underlying assumptions that can be pointed out:

1. Any "criminal action" committed by a POC is a direct consequence of environment, and that environment/circumstance, is something created by the oppressive "other". That "other" is whiteness/white people. The consequences of this are a) the "fault" here lies with the oppressor, b) the action cannot be considered criminal

Now if you say that to someone who espouses CRT, they will scream it is a distortion. But then ask them questions regarding black-on-black crime, and see how fast they start framing things in relation to white power structures and systems of oppression. Through every circumlocution, they will affirm the point above, and not even know it.

When the BLM buses showed up in my city, dudes poured out and started looting and burning, assaulting people, etc., anyone who complained about it was asked to "check their privilege", or to understand how their own racism contributed to this "rightful rage". Again, white people are responsible for the burning of their own cities.

2. Systemic Racism is not something proven through empirical or logical means. It is always assumed in hindsight through "de facto" reasoning. Less black were admitted to a school than whites? The explanation has to be racism. More blacks in jail than whites? It is impossible that blocks commit more crimes --has to be racism.

3. White people of every background and ethnicity are thrown into one big entity called whiteness, and that supergroup is directly responsible for every human evil and system of oppression. The dehumanization of this group is a hallmark of CRT, and is historical. The Hutus dehumanized the Tutsis, Nazis the Jews, Bolsheviks the Ukrainians, etc. There is always a group out there that needs to be targeted because it has special privileges and rights, and because it is fundamentally evil

There are many other aspects to CRT, but the most important things are the political, ideological, and rhetorical objectives of the movement (it really isn't a school of thought, it is a movement). Those are revolutionary: the overthrow of capitalism, destruction of whiteness (white people), and the dictatorship of POC.

Now it should be said that Derrick Bell, the guy who basically created CRT from Neo-Marxism / Critical Theory back in the 1980s did not foresee or understand the full implications of where he was going with all of this. He once said:

"Power in the hands of the reformed is no less corrupting than in the hands of the oppressor"

So what happened? Well white women got a hold of this (Peggy McIntosh and others), and it became more radicalized. Black activists seized upon CRT without fully understanding the original ideas and began generalizing them, twisting them for specific purposes, etc. Much in the same way that Mao admitted that he didn't read much Marx or Lenin, wasn't any kind of Communist scholar, but that didn't matter. He was out for practical results.

---

Guys, no one is obligated to consider or respect such a pernicious and irrational system of thought / movement. I have been at gaming conventions drinking with fellow attendees when some dude starts going into his CRT platform, expecting that others will nod in agreement. He is shocked when I countersignal him hard, and begin shutting down his irrationalism and ignorance on the spot.

As a former college instructor (previous life --never again!), you just don't get to say a bunch of stupid shit in front of me and expect me to go along with it. Expect to be challenged.

---

And we know that in gaming, CRT has made big inroads in subtle ways. White characters, ethnic groups, and cultures are erased from books, supplements, or whole systems. Slavery becomes a forbidden topic. "Alternative" lifestyles are celebrated. Gaming companies signal hard on every "progressive issue" --and all of this is mostly out of fear.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Daztur on July 08, 2021, 12:46:14 AM
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/07/05/PDTF/e15bb746-a87b-4dc1-9801-4133d0c4d7c4-60621ThompsonCriticalRaceWeb.jpg)

I wonder what fringe thing all of you will suddenly and in perfect unison become outraged about at the exact same time?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on July 08, 2021, 01:04:55 AM
*A new bad faith argument has arrived!*
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Shasarak on July 08, 2021, 01:05:00 AM
I wonder what fringe thing all of you will suddenly and in perfect unison become outraged about at the exact same time?

He says adjusting his three masks to more completely cover his face.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: SHARK on July 08, 2021, 01:37:15 AM
I wonder what fringe thing all of you will suddenly and in perfect unison become outraged about at the exact same time?

He says adjusting his three masks to more completely cover his face.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Nice, Shasarak! So true! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 02:31:14 AM
I wonder what fringe thing all of you will suddenly and in perfect unison become outraged about at the exact same time?

Some of us have been concerned about Critical Theory for years now.

https://twitter.com/themitchellfink/status/1412909635099529219

Do try to keep up.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: deathknight4044 on July 08, 2021, 07:15:26 AM
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/07/05/PDTF/e15bb746-a87b-4dc1-9801-4133d0c4d7c4-60621ThompsonCriticalRaceWeb.jpg)

I wonder what fringe thing all of you will suddenly and in perfect unison become outraged about at the exact same time?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2021, 08:10:19 AM
CRT: it doesn't actually exist but we need to teach it in school, because reasons.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 08, 2021, 09:27:38 AM

I wonder what fringe thing all of you will suddenly and in perfect unison become outraged about at the exact same time?

“Microaggressions” are very much a CRT thing. Ever heard of that? Ring a bell? Because BLM used it to try to ruin Comic-Con when I went there years ago, and more recently they were pushing it at my workplace. But those are just my personal experiences.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Merrill on July 08, 2021, 09:43:25 AM

I wonder what fringe thing all of you will suddenly and in perfect unison become outraged about at the exact same time?

“Microaggressions” are very much a CRT thing. Ever heard of that? Ring a bell? Because BLM used it to try to ruin Comic-Con when I went there years ago, and more recently they were pushing it at my workplace. But those are just my personal experiences.

what happened at Comin-Con?

don't think I heard about that
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: moonsweeper on July 08, 2021, 10:48:08 AM
I wonder what fringe thing all of you will suddenly and in perfect unison become outraged about at the exact same time?

Some of us have been concerned about Critical Theory for years now.

https://twitter.com/themitchellfink/status/1412909635099529219

Do try to keep up.

Hell, this thread itself is almost a month old... ::)
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 08, 2021, 01:26:32 PM
CRT: it doesn't actually exist but we need to teach it in school, because reasons.
NPR did an interview a couple weeks ago with a professor at some university. She said they only teach Critical Race Theory to graduate students, and only some of them, when it's relevant to their studies. The whole thrust of the piece was the worry about CRT in primary school was complete nonsense, because it's this very advanced and esoteric set of concepts that nobody's exposed to until they're Masters students, so all the parents are idiots who have no idea what they're talking about. Except NPR never talked to a primary school teacher, or to any of the people with concerns about CRT being taught to children.

It's evasion based on technical definitions. NPR is saying children aren't reading Gramsci and Crenshaw. Which is correct, but completely dishonest. Because people aren't concerned their children are being formally taught about CRT as a body of scholarship. They're concerned that the principles and conclusions of CRT are being incorporated into primary school education. Which is absolutely happening, as can be seen in things like the 1619 Project.

The dismissal of those concerns is completely two-faced, and the National Education Association's moves in the last few days is a perfect example. They started by passing a motion that supported CRT, with the clear intent to keep pushing it despite the resistance of parents (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9754609/Americas-largest-teachers-union-says-supports-teaching-children-critical-race-theory-schools.html), and then almost immediately started scrubbing their website of all traces of CRT. (https://news.yahoo.com/largest-teachers-union-erases-campaign-232740715.html) That goes beyond strawmanning the arguments of their opposition, as NPR did. It's blatant hypocrisy. The NEA are overtly supporting it, then pretending it doesn't exist when they're criticized.

Edit: Fixed a timing issue.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2021, 01:38:39 PM
CRT: it doesn't actually exist but we need to teach it in school, because reasons.
NPR did an interview a couple weeks ago with a professor at some university. She said they only teach Critical Race Theory to graduate students, and only some of them, when it's relevant to their studies. The whole thrust of the piece was the worry about CRT in primary school was complete nonsense, because it's this very advanced and esoteric set of concepts that nobody's exposed to until they're Masters students, so all the parents are idiots who have no idea what they're talking about. NPR never talked to a primary school teacher, or to any of the people with concerns about CRT being taught to children.

It's evasion based on technical definitions. NPR is saying children aren't reading Gramsci and Crenshaw. Which is correct, but completely dishonest. Because people aren't concerned their children are being formally taught about CRT as a body of scholarship. They're concerned that the principles and conclusions of CRT are being incorporated into primary school education. Which is absolutely happening, as can be seen in things like the 1619 Project.

The dismissal of those concerns is completely two-faced, and the National Education Association's moves in the last few days is a perfect example. They started by passing a motion that supported CRT, with the clear intent to keep pushing it despite the resistance of parents (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9754609/Americas-largest-teachers-union-says-supports-teaching-children-critical-race-theory-schools.html), while at the same time they're scrubbing their website of all traces of CRT. (https://news.yahoo.com/largest-teachers-union-erases-campaign-232740715.html) That goes beyond strawmanning the arguments of their opposition. It's blatant hypocrisy. They're overtly supporting it, while pretending it doesn't exist.
Personally, I could support teaching CRT... as long as it's done in the original German.

Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 08, 2021, 03:55:09 PM

I wonder what fringe thing all of you will suddenly and in perfect unison become outraged about at the exact same time?

“Microaggressions” are very much a CRT thing. Ever heard of that? Ring a bell? Because BLM used it to try to ruin Comic-Con when I went there years ago, and more recently they were pushing it at my workplace. But those are just my personal experiences.

what happened at Comin-Con?

don't think I heard about that

This was several years ago. BLM were present and sort of milling around in the hallways, asking people to look out for microaggressions. Some people clapped, but you could tell it didn't actually make people more jolly. Something I didn't see personally was that they found someone to pounce on. It was filmed and shared on youtube (I can't find it right now, maybe removed), showing some white (?) woman dressed up as Whoopi Goldberg (Sister Act I believe) being attacked and shouted at for wearing blackface. I never saw her face clearly but I honestly don't care if she smeared shoe polish all over; she was a fan of Whoopi, not someone making fun of black people.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 09, 2021, 04:34:53 PM
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/07/05/PDTF/e15bb746-a87b-4dc1-9801-4133d0c4d7c4-60621ThompsonCriticalRaceWeb.jpg)

I wonder what fringe thing all of you will suddenly and in perfect unison become outraged about at the exact same time?

   Fringe?  1. Fauci lied about what he knew.  Flat out.  2. Boys competing against girls is not fringe, and you are about to see some bullshit popping off if that becomes a federal issue.   3. CRT is pushed right now in education.   In class?  No, but pushed HARD on teachers in many states right now?  Damn right. 

   You are going to find out the word fringe may not mean what you think it does.  If you mess around with people's kids it is literally the ONE thing you dumb fucks might be able to do to get violence out of them.  I suggest you stop.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 10, 2021, 02:50:38 PM
I still can't get over the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus doing a song about how 'we're coming for your children'.

And then trying to shake it all off as 'it's just satire, bro!' when people go ballistic.

Ye gods. Set aside any opinions on alternate sexual practices and attractions. How dense do you have to be to make a song like that and not realize people might react badly?

(The icing on the cake is how more than a couple of those ... persons are registered sex offenders. Oops.)
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 10, 2021, 03:34:57 PM
(The icing on the cake is how more than a couple of those ... persons are registered sex offenders. Oops.)

Where did you get that from?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on July 10, 2021, 04:10:40 PM
(The icing on the cake is how more than a couple of those ... persons are registered sex offenders. Oops.)

Where did you get that from?
I heard in some podcast that 4chan was tracking them down. Don't think it's been confirmed, so it should be considered highly suspect at the moment.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: moonsweeper on July 10, 2021, 06:25:12 PM
(The icing on the cake is how more than a couple of those ... persons are registered sex offenders. Oops.)

Where did you get that from?
I heard in some podcast that 4chan was tracking them down. Don't think it's been confirmed, so it should be considered highly suspect at the moment.

They came up with 4 or 5 matches almost right away if I remember correctly, then I think they have found some more since.  I think the initial ones specifically had charges related to the 'under the age of 14' category.

I haven't seen an independent confirmation yet, but they did a good job of outing that one shooter in Portland in less than 12 hours.  Then the police had to admit they were right a few days later...so I guess we will see.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 10, 2021, 08:03:58 PM
The sex offender angle is shaky, and should be kept at arm's length until they have some solid information.

But a bunch of gay guys singing about how they're coming for your children is stupendously tone deaf, regardless of their intentions.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 11, 2021, 09:18:53 PM
The sex offender angle is shaky, and should be kept at arm's length until they have some solid information.

But a bunch of gay guys singing about how they're coming for your children is stupendously tone deaf, regardless of their intentions.
'Tone deaf' is probably the most generous way to put it.

I mean, how goddamn rock fucking stupid do you have to be to sing a song about how 'we're going to convert your kids'? Watching them scramble to say 'It's just a joke, bro!' reminds me of jackasses in high school who'd push someone to their limit then try to retreat behind 'it's just a joke!'.

Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 11, 2021, 10:09:22 PM
The sex offender angle is shaky, and should be kept at arm's length until they have some solid information.

But a bunch of gay guys singing about how they're coming for your children is stupendously tone deaf, regardless of their intentions.
'Tone deaf' is probably the most generous way to put it.

I mean, how goddamn rock fucking stupid do you have to be to sing a song about how 'we're going to convert your kids'? Watching them scramble to say 'It's just a joke, bro!' reminds me of jackasses in high school who'd push someone to their limit then try to retreat behind 'it's just a joke!'.

I think that parallel is pretty appropriate. Like most activism, once they get any kind of social or political power, they become the things they hated.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: KingCheops on July 12, 2021, 11:16:25 AM
The sex offender angle is shaky, and should be kept at arm's length until they have some solid information.

But a bunch of gay guys singing about how they're coming for your children is stupendously tone deaf, regardless of their intentions.
'Tone deaf' is probably the most generous way to put it.

I mean, how goddamn rock fucking stupid do you have to be to sing a song about how 'we're going to convert your kids'? Watching them scramble to say 'It's just a joke, bro!' reminds me of jackasses in high school who'd push someone to their limit then try to retreat behind 'it's just a joke!'.

Boys will be boys dude!  (until we make them all gay drag queens)
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Wntrlnd on July 12, 2021, 03:57:30 PM
First off: Having listened to and read the actual lyrics of the song, "converting your children" is supposedly meant to mean that they'll make them "more tolerant, non-bigoted and into allies" and not actually into gay people. (And after them, you're next)

So, not gay, just people who wount persecute them for being gay.

That said...

Secondly: Seriously, "coming for your children" makes me think they should have watched this sketch first
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqgiEQXGetI because that is seriously lacking in forethought



Thirdly: I work with kids/teenagers. They are natural rebels, and now you're giving them wokeness to rebel against.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 12, 2021, 04:08:00 PM
First off: Having listened to and read the actual lyrics of the song, "converting your children" is supposedly meant to mean that they'll make them "more tolerant, non-bigoted and into allies" and not actually into gay people. (And after them, you're next)

So, not gay, just people who wount persecute them for being gay.

That said...

Secondly: Seriously, "coming for your children" makes me think they should have watched this sketch first
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqgiEQXGetI because that is seriously lacking in forethought



Thirdly: I work with kids/teenagers. They are natural rebels, and now you're giving them wokeness to rebel against.

   Well, the thing is their definition of tolerant and non bigoted is not really that.  Their definition of tolerance is full acceptance and celebration.   I wonder how funny they would have thought it was if some right wing people did a country song about locking up/killing all the gays (since that is a trope these people feel is true, just as there are many conservative types who believe many homosexuals are also child predators) as satire?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on July 12, 2021, 05:33:27 PM
Secondly: Seriously, "coming for your children" makes me think they should have watched this sketch first

The song didn't just appear from the ether. The men in question are well aware of the double meaning; it's not like it's some obscure or fringe slang. They wrote the song purposefully with the innuendo in mind. And there's a lot of men in this group, who all heard the song and approved of the messages that it's communicating.

This wasn't done on a lark. They wrote the song, practiced it, got a recording studio, video equipment, performed it, did audio & video production, and publicized their work. They demonstrated a lot of effort into the whole endeavor, to communicate a message, and they knew this message would be offensive and subversive.

Nevertheless they went ahead with it all. They show a lot of enthusiasm for the message, so I'm going to take them at their word.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Wntrlnd on July 12, 2021, 06:44:19 PM

   Well, the thing is their definition of tolerant and non bigoted is not really that.  Their definition of tolerance is full acceptance and celebration.   I wonder how funny they would have thought it was if some right wing people did a country song about locking up/killing all the gays (since that is a trope these people feel is true, just as there are many conservative types who believe many homosexuals are also child predators) as satire?

I see. So what would the real (i.e your) definition of tolerance and non-bigoted be?


Quote

The song didn't just appear from the ether. The men in question are well aware of the double meaning; it's not like it's some obscure or fringe slang. They wrote the song purposefully with the innuendo in mind. And there's a lot of men in this group, who all heard the song and approved of the messages that it's communicating.

This wasn't done on a lark. They wrote the song, practiced it, got a recording studio, video equipment, performed it, did audio & video production, and publicized their work. They demonstrated a lot of effort into the whole endeavor, to communicate a message, and they knew this message would be offensive and subversive.

Nevertheless they went ahead with it all. They show a lot of enthusiasm for the message, so I'm going to take them at their word.


Sounds like you're saying they were counting on easily triggered right wing pundits like Ben Shapiro and youtubers getting their 15 minutes of content
 (with some witty title like "homosexual libtards own by facts and immediately regrets it") before they move on to the next thing to be outraged by so they can get their daily clicks.

Now why would they (the SFGC) do such a thing?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on July 12, 2021, 09:54:24 PM
Sounds like you're saying they were counting on easily triggered right wing pundits like Ben Shapiro and youtubers getting their 15 minutes of content
 (with some witty title like "homosexual libtards own by facts and immediately regrets it") before they move on to the next thing to be outraged by so they can get their daily clicks.

Now why would they (the SFGC) do such a thing?

I don't see a need to invent weird theories about how this was a super-secret ploy. These guys get excited about the prospect of coming for your children, and they don't think there will be any consequences for admitting it.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 12, 2021, 10:21:54 PM

   Well, the thing is their definition of tolerant and non bigoted is not really that.  Their definition of tolerance is full acceptance and celebration.   I wonder how funny they would have thought it was if some right wing people did a country song about locking up/killing all the gays (since that is a trope these people feel is true, just as there are many conservative types who believe many homosexuals are also child predators) as satire?

I see. So what would the real (i.e your) definition of tolerance and non-bigoted be?


Quote

The song didn't just appear from the ether. The men in question are well aware of the double meaning; it's not like it's some obscure or fringe slang. They wrote the song purposefully with the innuendo in mind. And there's a lot of men in this group, who all heard the song and approved of the messages that it's communicating.

This wasn't done on a lark. They wrote the song, practiced it, got a recording studio, video equipment, performed it, did audio & video production, and publicized their work. They demonstrated a lot of effort into the whole endeavor, to communicate a message, and they knew this message would be offensive and subversive.

Nevertheless they went ahead with it all. They show a lot of enthusiasm for the message, so I'm going to take them at their word.


Sounds like you're saying they were counting on easily triggered right wing pundits like Ben Shapiro and youtubers getting their 15 minutes of content
 (with some witty title like "homosexual libtards own by facts and immediately regrets it") before they move on to the next thing to be outraged by so they can get their daily clicks.

Now why would they (the SFGC) do such a thing?

  Acceptance and celebration are NOT tolerance.  Is this confusing for you?  Tolerance means the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.     
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 12, 2021, 10:30:32 PM
Sounds like you're saying they were counting on easily triggered right wing pundits like Ben Shapiro and youtubers getting their 15 minutes of content
 (with some witty title like "homosexual libtards own by facts and immediately regrets it") before they move on to the next thing to be outraged by so they can get their daily clicks.

Now why would they (the SFGC) do such a thing?

I don't see a need to invent weird theories about how this was a super-secret ploy. These guys get excited about the prospect of coming for your children, and they don't think there will be any consequences for admitting it.

   If you can not reproduce, you must recruit.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 13, 2021, 12:12:55 AM
If you ask me the gay quire boys are trolling, the way Proud Boys are trolling by constantly showing the ludicrous "white supremacy" hand signals. Both groups know that they're going to get a reaction and a good laugh at the others' expense.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 13, 2021, 12:19:45 AM
If you ask me the gay quire boys are trolling, the way Proud Boys are trolling by constantly showing the ludicrous "white supremacy" hand signals. Both groups know that they're going to get a reaction and a good laugh at the others' expense.

Seems their latest tactic is to put the video back up and then squeal about how they've gotten death threats.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/Soloists-of-S-F-Gay-Men-s-Chorus-receive-death-16305155.php

Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on July 13, 2021, 12:22:14 AM
If you ask me the gay quire boys are trolling, the way Proud Boys are trolling by constantly showing the ludicrous "white supremacy" hand signals. Both groups know that they're going to get a reaction and a good laugh at the others' expense.

Seems their latest tactic is to put the video back up and then squeal about how they've gotten death threats.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/Soloists-of-S-F-Gay-Men-s-Chorus-receive-death-16305155.php

I guess that's a major difference; the Proud Boys mainly complain when they're put in jail.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on July 13, 2021, 02:48:13 AM
Seems their latest tactic is to put the video back up and then squeal about how they've gotten death threats.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/Soloists-of-S-F-Gay-Men-s-Chorus-receive-death-16305155.php

This is actually a worthwhile test to demonstrate the SF Gay Men's Chorus' motives.

It is, I hope, a non-controversial opinion that grooming/coercing/* children is a bad thing. So was it a troll job, did they apologize for making a joke in very poor-taste purely for the titillation factor?

Reading the article, I'm not seeing any sign of remorse or apology. Instead the reaction seems to be to try and play the victim.

For the record, I fully support death threats against people who promote sexual violence against children.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: jhkim on July 13, 2021, 03:29:22 AM
Nevertheless they went ahead with it all. They show a lot of enthusiasm for the message, so I'm going to take them at their word.

For the record, I fully support death threats against people who promote sexual violence against children.

If you are taking them at their word, then what they intend to do is convert children into being "tolerant and fair", and "teach them not to hate". That's what the lyrics of the song actually say. It sounds like you're *not* taking them at their word, and instead reading something other than the literal meaning into the song.

It is absolutely a reference and parody of conservative allegations that gay people are all child molesters, but the intent of the song is to deny those allegations and push a different message instead. One can say it is in bad taste, but the literal meaning of the words spoken is clear.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on July 13, 2021, 05:16:35 AM
If you are taking them at their word, then what they intend to do is convert children into being "tolerant and fair", and "teach them not to hate"...

One can say it is in bad taste, but...

If taking them at their word means making kids "tolerant and fair" and "teaching them not to hate" then how is it also simultaneously in bad taste?

Seems like you are being disingenuous here.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2021, 08:05:47 AM
If you are taking them at their word, then what they intend to do is convert children into being "tolerant and fair", and "teach them not to hate"...

One can say it is in bad taste, but...

If taking them at their word means making kids "tolerant and fair" and "teaching them not to hate" then how is it also simultaneously in bad taste?

Seems like you are being disingenuous here.
Using the phrases 'we're coming for your kids' and 'conversion' strikes me as an amazingly bad way to say 'we want to teach them tolerance' at best.

So yeah. They're backpedaling because they know people get excited about grooming. There are plenty of legal precedents and laws regarding that, and then you get to 'angry parent lynch mob'.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on July 13, 2021, 11:32:35 AM
 I have to LOL at death threats over the internet though.  That is what most people call Monday.  Now someone shows up to where you are, or even calls you on a personal line, I might start to have concerns.   Those fellas in their future satire moments, where they already know they are going to royally piss people off might want to be careful about their language if online threats bother them.  You can sandwich tolerant and non-bigoted into lyrics calling gen Z gayer than Grinder and talking about coming for children if you like, but my advice is it is better to back away from the Rubicon.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2021, 01:44:54 PM
I have to LOL at death threats over the internet though.  That is what most people call Monday.  Now someone shows up to where you are, or even calls you on a personal line, I might start to have concerns.   Those fellas in their future satire moments, where they already know they are going to royally piss people off might want to be careful about their language if online threats bother them.  You can sandwich tolerant and non-bigoted into lyrics calling gen Z gayer than Grinder and talking about coming for children if you like, but my advice is it is better to back away from the Rubicon.
Well, it's been demonstrated that if you even talk about someone it's TOTALLY the same as murdering them eleventy billion times. No, really.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 13, 2021, 05:24:58 PM
Nevertheless they went ahead with it all. They show a lot of enthusiasm for the message, so I'm going to take them at their word.

For the record, I fully support death threats against people who promote sexual violence against children.

If you are taking them at their word, then what they intend to do is convert children into being "tolerant and fair", and "teach them not to hate". That's what the lyrics of the song actually say. It sounds like you're *not* taking them at their word, and instead reading something other than the literal meaning into the song.

It is absolutely a reference and parody of conservative allegations that gay people are all child molesters, but the intent of the song is to deny those allegations and push a different message instead. One can say it is in bad taste, but the literal meaning of the words spoken is clear.

I like and agree with Matt Walsh's take on it.



At best, and most generous interpretation, the Gay Choir was being a bunch of condescending assholes, and they knew it.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: DocJones on July 13, 2021, 07:00:03 PM
If taking them at their word means making kids "tolerant and fair" and "teaching them not to hate" then how is it also simultaneously in bad taste?

Seems like you are being disingenuous here.
Clearly there's a huge overlap in the SF gay choir membership and NAMBLA.


Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Doc Sammy on July 13, 2021, 07:25:05 PM
Fuck the SF Chorus.

Most of those "SF" queers are either NAMBLA rejects or wannabe trannies who do not have the balls to go all the way with transitioning (no pun intended)

Seriously though, fuck those guys for undoing decades of hard-fought work. Now the traditionalist redneck whores are going to have a field day with this little stunt.

On behalf of the GLB community, let me say that the San Francisco Gay Chorus can go fuck itself and we are NOT coming after your children. No matter how much both far-right puritan rednecks and far-left pedophiles wish it were the case.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2021, 09:35:43 PM
Fuck the SF Chorus.

Most of those "SF" queers are either NAMBLA rejects or wannabe trannies who do not have the balls to go all the way with transitioning (no pun intended)

Seriously though, fuck those guys for undoing decades of hard-fought work. Now the traditionalist redneck whores are going to have a field day with this little stunt.

On behalf of the GLB community, let me say that the San Francisco Gay Chorus can go fuck itself and we are NOT coming after your children. No matter how much both far-right puritan rednecks and far-left pedophiles wish it were the case.
Thank you, Doc. I appreciate that.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Jaeger on July 14, 2021, 03:58:04 AM
...
Clearly there's a huge overlap in the SF gay choir membership and NAMBLA.

Fuck the SF Chorus.

Most of those "SF" queers are either NAMBLA rejects ...

I think I'm gonna side with Doc Sammy on this one...

(https://social.infogalactic.com/images/posts/555cf0c9-42f4-42d3-b818-0423ddc81324/original-5e2c7bd70f2769b9f41597ff02158d02.jpeg?v=63792969773)
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on September 06, 2021, 06:54:40 PM
As I have been saying for a long time: “Wokeness” is so often just an excuse to bully and belittle people:

https://mobile.twitter.com/sarahbeth345/status/1433949909846085638
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 06, 2021, 07:52:50 PM
As I have been saying for a long time: “Wokeness” is so often just an excuse to bully and belittle people:

https://mobile.twitter.com/sarahbeth345/status/1433949909846085638

Woke is cringy
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 06, 2021, 08:05:52 PM
As I have been saying for a long time: “Wokeness” is so often just an excuse to bully and belittle people:

https://mobile.twitter.com/sarahbeth345/status/1433949909846085638

Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 09:26:23 PM
Fuck the SF Chorus.

Most of those "SF" queers are either NAMBLA rejects or wannabe trannies who do not have the balls to go all the way with transitioning (no pun intended)

Seriously though, fuck those guys for undoing decades of hard-fought work. Now the traditionalist redneck whores are going to have a field day with this little stunt.

On behalf of the GLB community, let me say that the San Francisco Gay Chorus can go fuck itself and we are NOT coming after your children. No matter how much both far-right puritan rednecks and far-left pedophiles wish it were the case.
Thank you for this awesome response.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: wmarshal on October 11, 2021, 04:32:02 PM
This thread would seem to fit for this:
https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2021/10/11/ny-times-story-on-the-bad-art-friend-is-remarkable-n421650

The utter evil of taking someone else’s generosity and work, and turning it into an issue resisting a “white savior” and appropriation.

I usually view the current progressive emphasis on being Woke and CRT as a kind of secular totalitarian cult, but I wonder if for a significant percentage it’s just a super-convenient vector for narcissists to build themselves up while tearing others down. Somehow, I think a true believer in the Woke cult couldn’t be this damn evil.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on October 11, 2021, 05:43:48 PM
This thread would seem to fit for this:
https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2021/10/11/ny-times-story-on-the-bad-art-friend-is-remarkable-n421650

The utter evil of taking someone else’s generosity and work, and turning it into an issue resisting a “white savior” and appropriation.

I usually view the current progressive emphasis on being Woke and CRT as a kind of secular totalitarian cult, but I wonder if for a significant percentage it’s just a super-convenient vector for narcissists to build themselves up while tearing others down. Somehow, I think a true believer in the Woke cult couldn’t be this damn evil.

I am generally positive in my interactions with people; HOWEVER Always remember that if you interact with a group of people, 3-4 % of them are likely to be on the sociopath/narcissistic spectrum, or possibly more.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on October 12, 2021, 05:14:17 PM
double posted, my bad.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on October 12, 2021, 05:14:34 PM
I am generally positive in my interactions with people; HOWEVER Always remember that if you interact with a group of people, 3-4 % of them are likely to be on the sociopath/narcissistic spectrum, or possibly more.

This largely varies by several factors. If you were raised in a shitty background, and struggles with insecurity problems then you’d ultimately believe someone like me is a narcissist.

If you were brought up the right away, then what other people do or don’t do, wouldn’t affect you at all. The woke movement is basically full of people with insecurity problems being manipulated by a grand master.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: JonKinator on October 31, 2021, 04:34:55 AM
I hope that woke culture finally ends
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on October 31, 2021, 10:33:42 AM
I am generally positive in my interactions with people; HOWEVER Always remember that if you interact with a group of people, 3-4 % of them are likely to be on the sociopath/narcissistic spectrum, or possibly more.

This largely varies by several factors. If you were raised in a shitty background, and struggles with insecurity problems then you’d ultimately believe someone like me is a narcissist.

If you were brought up the right away, then what other people do or don’t do, wouldn’t affect you at all. The woke movement is basically full of people with insecurity problems being manipulated by a grand master.

Of course it affects you. If you work with a lot of people you could be accused of something and fired for instance. If you’re not aware of this potential issue, you could make the situation worse for yourself.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 01, 2021, 01:41:48 PM
It's been a rough week for the race grifters.

Ibram X. Kendi managed to shred his own arguments about 'white privilege' when he posted a story about how white students were getting scholarships by lying about their color.

And someone pointed out 'if they're having to lie about their race to get a scholarship, are they really enjoying any privilege?'.

Whoops. Delete! Delete! LOL.

Meanwhile, Colin Kaepernick talks about how the NFL draft is like a slave auction.

No really. This fro-headed overpaid moron went there. Who knew that racism involved offering you million dollar contracts if you could cut it in the combines?

Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Shasarak on November 01, 2021, 06:00:10 PM
It's been a rough week for the race grifters.

Ibram X. Kendi managed to shred his own arguments about 'white privilege' when he posted a story about how white students were getting scholarships by lying about their color.

And someone pointed out 'if they're having to lie about their race to get a scholarship, are they really enjoying any privilege?'.

Whoops. Delete! Delete! LOL.

Meanwhile, Colin Kaepernick talks about how the NFL draft is like a slave auction.

No really. This fro-headed overpaid moron went there. Who knew that racism involved offering you million dollar contracts if you could cut it in the combines?

As a Capitalist I have to admire their grifting skills.

If you cant milk money from rubes then what can you do?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on November 04, 2021, 09:07:19 AM
Some Democrats finally starting to get it? Took long enough. Here’s James Carville:

"What went wrong is stupid wokeness. Don’t just look at Virginia and New Jersey. Look at Long Island, Buffalo, look at Minneapolis, even look at Seattle, Washington. I mean this ‘defund the police’ lunacy, this take Abraham Lincoln’s name off of schools, people see that. And it really has a suppressive effect on all across the country on Democrats. Some of these people need to go to a woke detox center or something," Carville said.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: wmarshal on November 04, 2021, 09:44:37 AM
Some Democrats finally starting to get it? Took long enough. Here’s James Carville:

"What went wrong is stupid wokeness. Don’t just look at Virginia and New Jersey. Look at Long Island, Buffalo, look at Minneapolis, even look at Seattle, Washington. I mean this ‘defund the police’ lunacy, this take Abraham Lincoln’s name off of schools, people see that. And it really has a suppressive effect on all across the country on Democrats. Some of these people need to go to a woke detox center or something," Carville said.
He’s not wrong, but I doubt he will have any impact on the Woke now driving the Democrats. Even if his point of view gains any kind of traction that’ll merely accelerate his cancellation by the Woke.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: KingCheops on November 04, 2021, 09:50:18 AM
Some Democrats finally starting to get it? Took long enough. Here’s James Carville:

"What went wrong is stupid wokeness. Don’t just look at Virginia and New Jersey. Look at Long Island, Buffalo, look at Minneapolis, even look at Seattle, Washington. I mean this ‘defund the police’ lunacy, this take Abraham Lincoln’s name off of schools, people see that. And it really has a suppressive effect on all across the country on Democrats. Some of these people need to go to a woke detox center or something," Carville said.

He's actually been bringing this up since Trump's election.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on November 04, 2021, 03:28:09 PM

He's actually been bringing this up since Trump's election.

Maybe not too surprising since he has a conservative wife. That way, he can’t be too far into the bubble.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: KingCheops on November 04, 2021, 03:48:02 PM

He's actually been bringing this up since Trump's election.

Maybe not too surprising since he has a conservative wife. That way, he can’t be too far into the bubble.

He's also fairly realistic about things.  You can't win independents and moderates with a radical agenda.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on November 04, 2021, 09:19:18 PM
Carville's perspective is not, "Don't do this," it's "Don't be so obvious." Big difference.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on November 04, 2021, 09:34:16 PM
Carville's perspective is not, "Don't do this," it's "Don't be so obvious." Big difference.
That's pretty much the perspective of all the supposed moderates on the left.

I still don't understand how this happened. Ten years ago, or 15 years ago, none of these people believed any of this. Then, very suddenly, the extreme of the extreme of the extreme far left became the norm.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: SHARK on November 04, 2021, 09:40:10 PM
Carville's perspective is not, "Don't do this," it's "Don't be so obvious." Big difference.

Greetings!

Exactly, Zelen!

Carville has always been a smart guy. Ruthless, scheming, power-hungry, and opportunistic. He simply argues for using ruses, deception, omission, misdirection, like you said, "Don't be obvious." He's always been a liberal fucktard though. He has always been a champion of the Leftist agenda. He, like some of the other Leftists, argue bitterly with the other members of the cult--but people like Carville have different priorities than the average SJW fanatic activist.

Carville's priorities
(1) WINNING
(2) POWER
(3) MONEY
(4) IDEOLOGY

The activists always put Ideology at number 1, so it isn't surprising that there are huge arguments over priorities, and methods, and imaging. Carville is still committed to the ideology though, he just understands imaging, propaganda, and doing what it takes to win and gain power are higher priorities, and which lead to money, influence, and more power, from which your ideology can thereby be enforced and imposed.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on November 06, 2021, 09:35:12 AM
Carville's perspective is not, "Don't do this," it's "Don't be so obvious." Big difference.

I don’t believe this is necessarily the case. Just because you want socialized medical care, and better nature conservation etc doesn’t mean that you agree that EVERYTHING has to be about race, or that the police should be abandoned for instance. I know a lot of people on the left, and many of them have been in denial about how strong the far left has gotten. In some cases it dawned on them when the news told them that things happening right before their eyes weren’t really happening, in other cases they will never change their minds. People are stubborn like that.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Zelen on November 07, 2021, 02:55:25 PM
I don’t believe this is necessarily the case...

Sure but Carville is an insider and he's been in politics for decades. He's not a blue dog democrat whose sole attachment to the Democrat party is having been a union member. The modern Democrat party is the party of the oligarchs & the radicals they use to push their agenda, and Carville played a big part in making it that way.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: jhkim on November 08, 2021, 05:48:35 PM
I don’t believe this is necessarily the case. Just because you want socialized medical care, and better nature conservation etc doesn’t mean that you agree that EVERYTHING has to be about race, or that the police should be abandoned for instance. I know a lot of people on the left, and many of them have been in denial about how strong the far left has gotten. In some cases it dawned on them when the news told them that things happening right before their eyes weren’t really happening, in other cases they will never change their minds. People are stubborn like that.
Sure but Carville is an insider and he's been in politics for decades. He's not a blue dog democrat whose sole attachment to the Democrat party is having been a union member. The modern Democrat party is the party of the oligarchs & the radicals they use to push their agenda, and Carville played a big part in making it that way.

I would say that the modern Democrat party and the modern Republican party are both the party of the oligarchs. The far left has gotten stronger as part of the general trend of increasing partisanship. However, they're still a minority, as demonstrated by Biden getting the nomination - who is far from progressive or radical.

Politics has always been a game of voting for the lesser evil. The mainstream of both parties don't like the radicals / reactionary fringe within their parties -- but they can be forced to adjust some to popularity on some issues. I'd love to see some more cross-party cooperation on points like opposing the increasing power of corporations.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: DragonBane on November 08, 2021, 07:19:10 PM
The woke are NOT turning a corner towards defeat. They are winning. People are too scared to really speak up.

Look at the culture wars. The non-left has lost every single battle. Biden is president; have you seen the budget he has planned? Nerdrotic is literally running away from California.

No, no "corner" has been turned.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 08, 2021, 07:52:18 PM
The woke are NOT turning a corner towards defeat. They are winning. People are too scared to really speak up.

Look at the culture wars. The non-left has lost every single battle. Biden is president; have you seen the budget he has planned? Nerdrotic is literally running away from California.

No, no "corner" has been turned.

We can point at specific instances. VA just got blasted, despite the Democrats trying hard to turn it into their usual "Handmaids racism!" trick.

Hard blue, leftist activist areas are going to hold out for quite a while longer, But there's some hope. No one was talking about Critical Race Theory just a few years ago, and now it was one of the important issues for VA voters.

I'd say we have turned a corner, but there's still a long way to go.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 08, 2021, 07:55:20 PM
I don’t believe this is necessarily the case. Just because you want socialized medical care, and better nature conservation etc doesn’t mean that you agree that EVERYTHING has to be about race, or that the police should be abandoned for instance. I know a lot of people on the left, and many of them have been in denial about how strong the far left has gotten. In some cases it dawned on them when the news told them that things happening right before their eyes weren’t really happening, in other cases they will never change their minds. People are stubborn like that.
Sure but Carville is an insider and he's been in politics for decades. He's not a blue dog democrat whose sole attachment to the Democrat party is having been a union member. The modern Democrat party is the party of the oligarchs & the radicals they use to push their agenda, and Carville played a big part in making it that way.

I would say that the modern Democrat party and the modern Republican party are both the party of the oligarchs. The far left has gotten stronger as part of the general trend of increasing partisanship. However, they're still a minority, as demonstrated by Biden getting the nomination - who is far from progressive or radical.

No, but he still pays lip service to radical progressives. When he's awake and not crapping his pants.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: DragonBane on November 08, 2021, 08:01:03 PM
The woke are NOT turning a corner towards defeat. They are winning. People are too scared to really speak up.

Look at the culture wars. The non-left has lost every single battle. Biden is president; have you seen the budget he has planned? Nerdrotic is literally running away from California.

No, no "corner" has been turned.

We can point at specific instances. VA just got blasted, despite the Democrats trying hard to turn it into their usual "Handmaids racism!" trick.

Hard blue, leftist activist areas are going to hold out for quite a while longer, But there's some hope. No one was talking about Critical Race Theory just a few years ago, and now it was one of the important issues for VA voters.

I'd say we have turned a corner, but there's still a long way to go.


"Specific instances?" You call everything the SJWs have gained "specific instances?" They run the media, academia, the entertainment field, specific hate speech laws in their favor are the law, Biden is PRESIDENT,- how much really changed under Trump?- I could go on and on.

No, not "specific instances." The only "specific instances" are the things the SJWs do NOT dominate. Yet.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 09, 2021, 08:16:30 AM
Incrementalism is a thing.

Those of us who've been fighting gun control know this. And sometimes, you can't get a sweeping victory. So take what you can and plan for the next push.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Banjo Destructo on November 09, 2021, 10:06:14 AM
Carville's perspective is not, "Don't do this," it's "Don't be so obvious." Big difference.
That's pretty much the perspective of all the supposed moderates on the left.

I still don't understand how this happened. Ten years ago, or 15 years ago, none of these people believed any of this. Then, very suddenly, the extreme of the extreme of the extreme far left became the norm.

Hilary Clinton wanted to push some kind of healthcare for everyone plan back when she was first lady during her husband's presidency, so that was 1992-2000,  20-30 years ago.   I think most of the people at the top of the DNC, Democratic Party have been basically some form of progressive, or a marxist, or sympathetic to the USSR and other communist revolutions for over 40 years now, they just haven't been publicly obvious about it. Now there are younger people who don't feel ashamed of believing in this stuff, while the older people still want to hide it, but it has been there for a long time.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: jhkim on November 09, 2021, 12:54:09 PM
I would say that the modern Democrat party and the modern Republican party are both the party of the oligarchs. The far left has gotten stronger as part of the general trend of increasing partisanship. However, they're still a minority, as demonstrated by Biden getting the nomination - who is far from progressive or radical.
No, but he still pays lip service to radical progressives.

Fair enough, but as you say, it is lip service that isn't reflected in his actions and policy.


I still don't understand how this happened. Ten years ago, or 15 years ago, none of these people believed any of this. Then, very suddenly, the extreme of the extreme of the extreme far left became the norm.

Hilary Clinton wanted to push some kind of healthcare for everyone plan back when she was first lady during her husband's presidency, so that was 1992-2000,  20-30 years ago.   I think most of the people at the top of the DNC, Democratic Party have been basically some form of progressive, or a marxist, or sympathetic to the USSR and other communist revolutions for over 40 years now, they just haven't been publicly obvious about it.

Truman and JFK both pushed universal health care decades earlier, and the creation of Medicare and Medicaid were compromises to that. But if you define universal health care as openly communist, then Israel is openly communist -- along with Japan, South Korea, Australia, and every other First World country with the exception of the U.S. That doesn't seem like a useful distinction.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Pat on November 09, 2021, 06:02:25 PM

Hilary Clinton wanted to push some kind of healthcare for everyone plan back when she was first lady during her husband's presidency, so that was 1992-2000,  20-30 years ago.   I think most of the people at the top of the DNC, Democratic Party have been basically some form of progressive, or a marxist, or sympathetic to the USSR and other communist revolutions for over 40 years now, they just haven't been publicly obvious about it.

Truman and JFK both pushed universal health care decades earlier, and the creation of Medicare and Medicaid were compromises to that. But if you define universal health care as openly communist, then Israel is openly communist -- along with Japan, South Korea, Australia, and every other First World country with the exception of the U.S. That doesn't seem like a useful distinction.
By that logic, identifying cancerous tumors in your body isn't a useful distinction.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: SHARK on November 09, 2021, 07:18:52 PM
Greetings!

Biden's "Lip Service" to the Leftist Radicals is somehow not reflected in his actions or policies?

Geesus. Put the fucking delusional Kool-Aid down.

Biden is one of the most Left-wing, radical, Marxist, fucking tyrant nutjobs that has ever ruled this country.

Listen to Dan Bongino, as well as Ben Shapiro, along with Walsh, Klaven, and others at the Daily Wire to learn all about how fucking radical and fucking left wing Biden has been with his actions and policies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2021, 07:58:42 AM
Greetings!

Biden's "Lip Service" to the Leftist Radicals is somehow not reflected in his actions or policies?

Geesus. Put the fucking delusional Kool-Aid down.

Biden is one of the most Left-wing, radical, Marxist, fucking tyrant nutjobs that has ever ruled this country.

Listen to Dan Bongino, as well as Ben Shapiro, along with Walsh, Klaven, and others at the Daily Wire to learn all about how fucking radical and fucking left wing Biden has been with his actions and policies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Point of order:

Biden's handlers are hard left.

I don't think Biden himself is in charge of much of anything, down to his bowel movements.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 01:57:14 PM
Biden's "Lip Service" to the Leftist Radicals is somehow not reflected in his actions or policies?

Geesus. Put the fucking delusional Kool-Aid down.

Biden is one of the most Left-wing, radical, Marxist, fucking tyrant nutjobs that has ever ruled this country.

Listen to Dan Bongino, as well as Ben Shapiro, along with Walsh, Klaven, and others at the Daily Wire to learn all about how fucking radical and fucking left wing Biden has been with his actions and policies.

Do you have any specific arguments to discuss? I've been subscribed to updates from Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire for a while now.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on November 11, 2021, 09:30:11 AM
I don’t know how “hard left” Biden is at the core, as he speaks too much nonsense to be able to tell. You could sort of make a similar argument for Trump by the way, his actual stance on things was meandering and sometimes lost in unclear rhetoric.

What really pisses me off about Biden is that he is pandering to the race grifters pretty hard, in a country that is already hysterical about race. Going all out on the Georgia voting laws and calling them “Jim Crow on steroids” etc, after a year when people got killed or had their business burnt down in riots that were all about race, or their neighborhood occupied by thugs….well that’s pretty disgusting. It made him radioactive to me at least.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: SHARK on November 11, 2021, 11:36:07 AM
Biden's "Lip Service" to the Leftist Radicals is somehow not reflected in his actions or policies?

Geesus. Put the fucking delusional Kool-Aid down.

Biden is one of the most Left-wing, radical, Marxist, fucking tyrant nutjobs that has ever ruled this country.

Listen to Dan Bongino, as well as Ben Shapiro, along with Walsh, Klaven, and others at the Daily Wire to learn all about how fucking radical and fucking left wing Biden has been with his actions and policies.

Do you have any specific arguments to discuss? I've been subscribed to updates from Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire for a while now.

Greetings!

Well, if you are a regular listener to Ben Shapiro, Michael Knowles, Andrew Klaven, Michael Walsh, then you would know how fucking extreme LEFT and RADICAL Biden's actions and policies have been. Dan Bongino has also discussed on his program numerous occasions and episodes about how extreme LEFT and disastrous Biden has been for America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: jhkim on November 11, 2021, 02:46:02 PM
Do you have any specific arguments to discuss? I've been subscribed to updates from Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire for a while now.

Well, if you are a regular listener to Ben Shapiro, Michael Knowles, Andrew Klaven, Michael Walsh, then you would know how fucking extreme LEFT and RADICAL Biden's actions and policies have been. Dan Bongino has also discussed on his program numerous occasions and episodes about how extreme LEFT and disastrous Biden has been for America.

Of those, I only follow Ben Shapiro (mostly on Daily Wire). But I read a number of different news sources including both right-leaning and left-leaning, and I don't blindly swallow to any of them. In general, I'm pretty skeptical of basing my views of the world on "news", because essentially all news sources are sensationalized and biased. Even if politically moderate, they still tend to push outrage and clickbait over something.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on November 28, 2021, 10:31:26 AM
If anyone still wonders why people are seriously fed up with the “woke”:


“ Canadian school cancels ISIS survivor Nadia Murad over Islamophobia fears”
https://archive.md/XpitD

Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 28, 2021, 11:45:48 AM
If anyone still wonders why people are seriously fed up with the “woke”:


“ Canadian school cancels ISIS survivor Nadia Murad over Islamophobia fears”
https://archive.md/XpitD
For those of you who are terminally uninformed, Nadia Murad is a Yazidi woman who was kidnapped into sex slavery by ISIS.

One more example of wokeists being quite comfortable with sex trafficking and rape. Whodathunk it?
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on November 28, 2021, 11:55:06 PM
For those of you who are terminally uninformed, Nadia Murad is a Yazidi woman who was kidnapped into sex slavery by ISIS.

One more example of wokeists being quite comfortable with sex trafficking and rape. Whodathunk it?

I don't think they're "comfortable" with it. That's the kind of thinking that led us into this hopeless divisiveness. I just think that "Muslims doing bad" causes an cognitive error and near-shutdown of their brains.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 08:16:19 AM
For those of you who are terminally uninformed, Nadia Murad is a Yazidi woman who was kidnapped into sex slavery by ISIS.

One more example of wokeists being quite comfortable with sex trafficking and rape. Whodathunk it?

I don't think they're "comfortable" with it. That's the kind of thinking that led us into this hopeless divisiveness. I just think that "Muslims doing bad" causes an cognitive error and near-shutdown of their brains.
Feel free to trawl through the usual leftist echo chambers and review how they talk about Joseph Rosenbaum.

Or contemplate how they continue to idolize Roman Polanski.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on November 29, 2021, 11:29:48 AM
For those of you who are terminally uninformed, Nadia Murad is a Yazidi woman who was kidnapped into sex slavery by ISIS.

One more example of wokeists being quite comfortable with sex trafficking and rape. Whodathunk it?

I don't think they're "comfortable" with it. That's the kind of thinking that led us into this hopeless divisiveness. I just think that "Muslims doing bad" causes an cognitive error and near-shutdown of their brains.
Feel free to trawl through the usual leftist echo chambers and review how they talk about Joseph Rosenbaum.

Or contemplate how they continue to idolize Roman Polanski.

I know many "woke" leftists. Some think that Polanski should rot in jail for a lifetime, or even shot. I have seen this so many times; "pedophile" and "rape apologist" are insults that both sides like to hurl at each other, and of course when we're talking about millions of people it's always possible to find "evidence" that supports this view. Add to that a good dose of "my side means well, but sometimes things just go wrong. Those others though? Tsk tsk!"
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 12:04:08 PM
For those of you who are terminally uninformed, Nadia Murad is a Yazidi woman who was kidnapped into sex slavery by ISIS.

One more example of wokeists being quite comfortable with sex trafficking and rape. Whodathunk it?

I don't think they're "comfortable" with it. That's the kind of thinking that led us into this hopeless divisiveness. I just think that "Muslims doing bad" causes an cognitive error and near-shutdown of their brains.
Feel free to trawl through the usual leftist echo chambers and review how they talk about Joseph Rosenbaum.

Or contemplate how they continue to idolize Roman Polanski.

I know many "woke" leftists. Some think that Polanski should rot in jail for a lifetime, or even shot. I have seen this so many times; "pedophile" and "rape apologist" are insults that both sides like to hurl at each other, and of course when we're talking about millions of people it's always possible to find "evidence" that supports this view. Add to that a good dose of "my side means well, but sometimes things just go wrong. Those others though? Tsk tsk!"
Good. Make sure you keep a list. It'll be interesting to see how many want to put you in a camp for wrongthink.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on November 29, 2021, 12:26:06 PM
I know many "woke" leftists. Some think that Polanski should rot in jail for a lifetime, or even shot.

I don't doubt it, but the problem is that such leftists don't generally speak up to call out their more blind-eye-turning fellows in public. I am perfectly willing not to tar the moderates of any movement with an extremists' brush -- there is no movement which doesn't have destructive extremists -- but when the moderates stay conveniently silent as long as their extremist fringe's actions are still working to their benefit, that distinction becomes harder to buy.

(Larry Correia just recently posted a great rant (http://monsterhunternation.com/2021/11/23/do-i-unfairly-paint-the-left-with-a-broad-brush/) about this topic.)

I think one way we will know Wokism is on the decline is when its extremists finally start losing their own moderates' support.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 01:14:34 PM
I know many "woke" leftists. Some think that Polanski should rot in jail for a lifetime, or even shot.

I don't doubt it, but the problem is that such leftists don't generally speak up to call out their more blind-eye-turning fellows in public. I am perfectly willing not to tar the moderates of any movement with an extremists' brush -- there is no movement which doesn't have destructive extremists -- but when the moderates stay conveniently silent as long as their extremist fringe's actions are still working to their benefit, that distinction becomes harder to buy.

(Larry Correia just recently posted a great rant (http://monsterhunternation.com/2021/11/23/do-i-unfairly-paint-the-left-with-a-broad-brush/) about this topic.)

I think one way we will know Wokism is on the decline is when its extremists finally start losing their own moderates' support.
Correia says it better than I ever could.

People say, 'But we're not all like that!' and my response is, 'How can I tell?'.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on November 29, 2021, 04:01:59 PM
I agree that way too few on the left point out the insanity. Bill Maher is firmly rooted on the left (because weed, and a personal feud with Trump, and a few other things) but he’s  among the few that will tell them to their face that they’re nuts. When asked why he doesn’t just shut up about it he responded “because you embarrass me!”

I agree, but I’d put it stronger than that. The current left isn’t just an embarrassment, they have been supporting people who have burned down parts of cities. The left can point to Jan 6, but that was more like vandalism to state property if you ask me, it didn’t scare my nearly as much.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Wrath of God on November 29, 2021, 05:07:29 PM
Quote
Feel free to trawl through the usual leftist echo chambers and review how they talk about Joseph Rosenbaum.

Or contemplate how they continue to idolize Roman Polanski.

From my experience Woke SJW commies were for Polanski blood. It was older progressive liberals/moderate socialdemocrates with highly elitist streat that were defending him.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: 3catcircus on November 29, 2021, 07:59:58 PM
Quote
Feel free to trawl through the usual leftist echo chambers and review how they talk about Joseph Rosenbaum.

Or contemplate how they continue to idolize Roman Polanski.

From my experience Woke SJW commies were for Polanski blood. It was older progressive liberals/moderate socialdemocrates with highly elitist streat that were defending him.

While not condoning him, I think that having his wife and unborn kid stabulated by a bunch of cultist psychos probably helped along Polanski's baser urges, which seems a bit different than the  "Wut? Wut's the problem?!?!" way in which the current crop of pedos are trying to normalize criminally deviant behavior.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 09:22:55 PM
Quote
Feel free to trawl through the usual leftist echo chambers and review how they talk about Joseph Rosenbaum.

Or contemplate how they continue to idolize Roman Polanski.

From my experience Woke SJW commies were for Polanski blood. It was older progressive liberals/moderate socialdemocrates with highly elitist streat that were defending him.

While not condoning him, I think that having his wife and unborn kid stabulated by a bunch of cultist psychos probably helped along Polanski's baser urges, which seems a bit different than the  "Wut? Wut's the problem?!?!" way in which the current crop of pedos are trying to normalize criminally deviant behavior.
That was a theory I had as well, actually.

Doesn't excuse it, but it wouldn't surprise me if he turned into a nihilist of sorts after Sharon Tate's death. Reading Bugliosi's Helter Skelter, it's strongly indicated that Tate was having a stabilizing effect on his personality, slowly shifting him away from the 'Hollywood' lifestyle into something a little more presentable. To have that yanked away so savagely would've been disastrous.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on November 30, 2021, 01:30:58 PM
Quote
Feel free to trawl through the usual leftist echo chambers and review how they talk about Joseph Rosenbaum.

Or contemplate how they continue to idolize Roman Polanski.

From my experience Woke SJW commies were for Polanski blood. It was older progressive liberals/moderate socialdemocrates with highly elitist streat that were defending him.

Yes, you’ll definitely find leftists who are strongly opposed to any child molestation etc. Also check out several videos by Shoe0nhead (a Bernie supporter) for instance.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: 3catcircus on November 30, 2021, 02:07:08 PM
Quote
Feel free to trawl through the usual leftist echo chambers and review how they talk about Joseph Rosenbaum.

Or contemplate how they continue to idolize Roman Polanski.

From my experience Woke SJW commies were for Polanski blood. It was older progressive liberals/moderate socialdemocrates with highly elitist streat that were defending him.

But it wasn't that that were out for him for being a pedo - the current crop of leftists support it so long as it's lumped into the current "LGBT$_&* abbreviation salad" and given a cutesy moniker.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: jhkim on November 30, 2021, 02:30:25 PM
From my experience Woke SJW commies were for Polanski blood. It was older progressive liberals/moderate socialdemocrates with highly elitist streat that were defending him.

But it wasn't that that were out for him for being a pedo - the current crop of leftists support it so long as it's lumped into the current "LGBT$_&* abbreviation salad" and given a cutesy moniker.

Kevin Spacey was accused of same-sex pedophilia, and it seems to me he was cancelled just as thoroughly as straight pedophiles.

The old guard at Hollywood has for over a century covered up lots of scandals including pedophilia - with figures like Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein and their many predecessors. However, I don't see the current crop of leftists supporting this for same-sex cases like Spacey. Those who I know have been enthusiastic in the movement against Spacey just as much as figures like Weinstein and Epstein.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on November 30, 2021, 02:56:17 PM
  Hollywood has also had several movies it produced that were putting pedo's in a sympathetic role.  Others where they made some innuendos, and so forth.  Not a doubt in my mind they have a large contingent of blood suckers that bang kids IRL all the time.  I think it is nice we can still seem to all agree "Pedos bad", but I have a feeling all the shifting will eventually lead to a more direct course to make society more accepting of pedos.  Molesters and rapists IMO commit a crime that in many ways is WORSE for the victim than murder, and if there is a case for the death penalty...molestation and categories of rape should carry the death penalty if we were were actually healthy as a society.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: jhkim on November 30, 2021, 04:18:37 PM
  Hollywood has also had several movies it produced that were putting pedo's in a sympathetic role.  Others where they made some innuendos, and so forth.  Not a doubt in my mind they have a large contingent of blood suckers that bang kids IRL all the time.  I think it is nice we can still seem to all agree "Pedos bad", but I have a feeling all the shifting will eventually lead to a more direct course to make society more accepting of pedos.

Society used to be more accepting of many practices that are now increasingly frowned on -- like how the age of consent has generally gone up, marital rape is now generally illegal, and there are a growing number of states that have made child marriage illegal. So I'd consider those to be positive developments.

That doesn't mean that things can't get worse in the future, of course. I certainly hope we don't backslide on this.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: Trond on November 30, 2021, 05:53:42 PM
Roman Polanski is an interesting one though. The guy was traumatized by WWII as well probably. I think they gassed most of his family. And then getting targeted by the Manson family. Holy shit.

 I remember people clapping for him in absentia during the Oscars, even when his abuse case was well known. Later I assume he was considered toxic again. Rightly so because that thing was creepy as hell. But if he turned out to be a serial killer I think many would still say “well at least I can see how he snapped”. Not easy to know what to think about the guy.
Title: Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
Post by: 3catcircus on November 30, 2021, 07:07:13 PM
  Hollywood has also had several movies it produced that were putting pedo's in a sympathetic role.  Others where they made some innuendos, and so forth.  Not a doubt in my mind they have a large contingent of blood suckers that bang kids IRL all the time.  I think it is nice we can still seem to all agree "Pedos bad", but I have a feeling all the shifting will eventually lead to a more direct course to make society more accepting of pedos.

Society used to be more accepting of many practices that are now increasingly frowned on -- like how the age of consent has generally gone up, marital rape is now generally illegal, and there are a growing number of states that have made child marriage illegal. So I'd consider those to be positive developments.

That doesn't mean that things can't get worse in the future, of course. I certainly hope we don't backslide on this.

To be fair, those all stem from a time when Western Europe was still shitting in the streets.  Married in early teens, squirt out a dozen pups hoping one or two survive, a grandparent in your 30s, dead by 40 or 45.  That, and there was just a lot less to have to learn back then, so there was less time to have to invest in ensuring society survived in future generations.