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Author Topic: Turning the corner on "woke"?  (Read 67582 times)

DocJones

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2021, 04:08:15 PM »
And what was the estimated damage to the Capitol? In dollars? Oh, right, Zero. And the number I get for numbers arrested is around 200, not around 1000. And at least one guy spent a night in jail. So, given minor nitpicks, sure. So what?
I don't think it was taken as seriously because it was mostly chicks and effeminate men.

Pat
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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2021, 04:45:19 PM »

I'm not saying these are inherently in Critical Race Theory, but they are perceived to be, by people on both sides.
None of that's Critical Race Theory. You're just adding a lot of confusion to the issue.

CRT starts with the assumption that everything is racist. Every person, every institution, and every interaction. That it's the norm. This is sometimes called systemic racism. Going deeper, it claims that race is an artificial construct created by white people, who used it to give themselves power, and exclude other people. They further claim that since white people benefit from it, they have a vested interest in maintaining the system, and usually can't even see how the structure of everything favors them. These are the unquestionable tenets of the movement.

This means Critical Race theorists never look for proof that racism exists in any situation. Instead, they assume that racism always exists, and then try to explain how racism is inherent in every situation. While it was a reaction to the Civil Rights movement, CRT believes the movement failed to address the historical inequities around race, and has come to reject almost all of the liberal principles that underlie it, including concepts like equality under the law. It also rejects reasoning and evidence in favor of lived experiences and feelings.

CRT is also an activist movement. I'm not saying that a few Critical Race Theorists are activists. I'm saying one of the core principals of CRT scholarship is overturning the social order. It doesn't believe in incremental improvements, but revolution. And if you're not actively fighting all the time, you're considered part of the problem.

I don't think anything I've said above would be seriously disputed, by either side. This is all covered in basic videos or introductory textbooks by key Critical Race Theory advocates and scholars like Robin DiAngelo, as well as by opponents like James Lindsay.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 04:50:49 PM by Pat »

KingCheops

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2021, 04:55:59 PM »
OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020?

Wait.  Sorry I'm confusing this with the "insurrection" of September 2018 when thousands stormed the Capitol in order to disrupt the confirmation hearings of a judge.  Around 1000 were arrested and frog marched out of the Capitol and immediately released.  For some reason they were never prosecuted.  So much for equal treatment under the law.

Not to mention they were actually riding the elevators alongside the Senators and screaming in their ears.  They also blatantly had organizers standing outside with wads of cash for bail money openly calling out for people to take some and go get arrested.

Edit:  It's doubly extra fucking hilarious if you take into account the fact that DemonKKKrats got these retards all worked up over abortion when BK literally told that cunt Feinstein that he supported the precedent set by Roe v. Wade during the Judiciary Committee hearing.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 04:58:06 PM by KingCheops »

Trond

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2021, 05:05:47 PM »
Yes, Critical Race Theory is an "intellectual" pursuit that has no room for other explanations. Imagine a student working on a CRT thesis, with the subject being exploring racism in, say, New Jersey pottery making. And the student then coming back to the profs and supervisors at the university saying "uh, I couldn't find any racism in NJ pottery". The student will simply be told that they're not looking closely enough. They would twist and wring whatever they have, using all sorts of sophistry and obscure phrasings (and many of them are trained in this, often coming from backgrounds in studying literature). This is why they keep finding "racism" in the most absurd places.

Zelen

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2021, 05:09:19 PM »
Question in my mind is whether ScytheSong is just trying to rile people up or is being sincere. It's hard to believe sincerity when engaging in such bad tactics. Jump into a thread, make a bunch of questionable statements meant to frame discussion, then derail the whole thread by being evasive.

Just to try and keep this on track, much of critiques of power from figures such as Foucault that form the foundation of CRT have valuable insights worth paying attention to. Cynical Theories by Lindsay & Pluckrose does a fairly good job at showing the genealogy of these ideas.

The issue we see when it comes to CRT is its particularist anti-white agenda and focus on legalism rather than real-world harm.

It's pretty obvious when you look at the language they've purposefully constructed, talking about "White Fragility" "Whiteness" etc. Of course the claim is that these aren't meant specifically as ethnic markers. Lets be real -- It's explicitly targeting Whites/Europeans, and that's precisely why CRT has any degree of popularity, because it trades on racially-motived envy and hatred. Without that emotional hook it's just up-its-own-ass philosophizing about the nature of power and privilege, which we've already seen has no blood to actually motivate people.

What I've never had explained to me by a CRT person is why it's bad for European people to build societies that benefit European peoples. Seems like it's perfectly okay for Arabs to build Arab countries to benefit Arabs, for Africans to build African countries to benefit Africans, for Asians to build Asian countries to benefit Asians -- In many cases these people are doing shit that is way more shady and nefarious than what CRT people complain about -- But only European peoples are not allowed to build their own societies with their own rules for the benefit of themselves & their posterity.

Not playing that game.

ScytheSong

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2021, 05:29:07 PM »
Greetings!

Critical Race Theory is pure anti-white RACISM deeply rooted in Marxist ideology and given an academic glossed paintjob.

All of the piggy-squealing in defense of Critical Race Theory amounts to nothing more than obtuse gaslighting promoted by anti-white racists, race-grifting charlatans, demagogues, and other malevolent agent-provocateurs that seek the corruption and degradation of America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You are wrong. But  then, what are you "always faithful" to, Mr. Shark? The United States of America, its people and Constitution, or just the kind of people who look and think like you? You seemed to be plenty happy when the constitution was being trampled on by a bunch of White Supremacist idiots back in January.

Greetings!

Heh. No, I'm not wrong. I know what Critical Race Theory is all about. It is exactly as I described it. Anyone who wants to think about it differently is sadly ignorant, uninformed, or brainwashed.

I am faithful to that which is worthy of being faithful to. My God, Family, Corps, and Country. As for people and what they look like? I don't happen to give a damn if someone "Looks like me" or not. They can be purple, zebra striped, whatever. As for "Thinking like me"--well, yeah, obviously, there is some importance to that and having essential compatibilities and commonalties. Fucking racists, Marxists, anarchists, ANTIFA, BLM thugs and Woke Commissars have "thinking" that makes living them seem impossible, so fuck them.

I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 05:31:12 PM by ScytheSong »

jhkim

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2021, 05:40:40 PM »
What I've never had explained to me by a CRT person is why it's bad for European people to build societies that benefit European peoples. Seems like it's perfectly okay for Arabs to build Arab countries to benefit Arabs, for Africans to build African countries to benefit Africans, for Asians to build Asian countries to benefit Asians -- In many cases these people are doing shit that is way more shady and nefarious than what CRT people complain about -- But only European peoples are not allowed to build their own societies with their own rules for the benefit of themselves & their posterity.

I'm not a CRT person -- but by my book, it is definitely *not* okay for China to discriminate against the Uyghurs, or for Myanmar to discriminate against the Rohingya, or for Japan to discriminate against ethnic Koreans. Creating racist, sexist, and otherwise prejudiced societies is something I am opposed to wherever they are. There are plenty of other people who support these causes.

My father grew up under Japanese rule in Korea, where he would be beaten if he spoke Korean in school -- despite being Korean. They were deliberately trying to stamp out Korean culture and impose their own onto Korean children. This sort of imperialism is not OK. By the same token, Indian boarding schools where Indian children were forcibly indoctrinated were also not OK.

I realize there are some people who exclusively focus on prejudice and imperialism by white people, but just because they are wrong, that doesn't mean that prejudice and imperialism are okay.

SHARK

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2021, 06:04:29 PM »
Greetings!

Critical Race Theory is pure anti-white RACISM deeply rooted in Marxist ideology and given an academic glossed paintjob.

All of the piggy-squealing in defense of Critical Race Theory amounts to nothing more than obtuse gaslighting promoted by anti-white racists, race-grifting charlatans, demagogues, and other malevolent agent-provocateurs that seek the corruption and degradation of America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You are wrong. But  then, what are you "always faithful" to, Mr. Shark? The United States of America, its people and Constitution, or just the kind of people who look and think like you? You seemed to be plenty happy when the constitution was being trampled on by a bunch of White Supremacist idiots back in January.

Greetings!

Heh. No, I'm not wrong. I know what Critical Race Theory is all about. It is exactly as I described it. Anyone who wants to think about it differently is sadly ignorant, uninformed, or brainwashed.

I am faithful to that which is worthy of being faithful to. My God, Family, Corps, and Country. As for people and what they look like? I don't happen to give a damn if someone "Looks like me" or not. They can be purple, zebra striped, whatever. As for "Thinking like me"--well, yeah, obviously, there is some importance to that and having essential compatibilities and commonalties. Fucking racists, Marxists, anarchists, ANTIFA, BLM thugs and Woke Commissars have "thinking" that makes living them seem impossible, so fuck them.

I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?

Greetings!

I am not worried about the US Constitution being endangered or violated by whoever was at the Capitol during January 6, 2021. It is just more hyped-up hysterical nonsense being pushed, framed, and exploited by the Marxist Democrats throughout the government to actually violate our rights and liberties, and to gather ever more power and control into their hands.

Furthermore, numerous political leaders, media officials, and more, screamed that when the BLM and ANTIFA mobs were burning, looting, and murdering people and devastating cities all over the country--well, the mobs were just expressing their pain and rage.

So, the angry mobs at the Capitol were also then merely expressing their pain and rage. If it's good for BLM and ANTIFA, then the same policy is good for everyone else, too. That's how reality and justice gets worked out. I suppose in our new, Balkanized reality of clown-world, with fat, Marxist Democrat politicians abandoning any true loyalty to America, and instead embracing their calling of being Marxist Demagogues seeking to eagerly corrupt and destroy America, we can expect more. More riots, more violence. More resistance everywhere.

I would have more faith in the self-righteous exclamations and pronouncements from the government if they had ruthlessly hunted down every violent member of BLM and ANTIFA, and strung them the fuck up from a tall tree. Long, long rows of trees, decorated with those scum. Well, that certainly hasn't happened. Expecting real consistency and justice from a government full of cock-sucking Marxists and self-seeking bureaucrats eager to circle-jerk themselves into embracing any ideology as long as their ass gets buttered is futile. I'm certainly not holding my breath.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 06:06:05 PM by SHARK »
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Zelen

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2021, 06:14:34 PM »
...

I realize there are some people who exclusively focus on prejudice and imperialism by white people, but just because they are wrong, that doesn't mean that prejudice and imperialism are okay.

I agree with that sentiment, and I think most people probably do. I am in favor of the right of all peoples to self-govern. The only reason I even bring that up is because the hostile sentiment from CRT/Woke people is such that I don't want to live in areas where they wield political power (and violent mobs). I don't want any part of participating in a state that is going to try and smear me & my kids with racial guilt for stuff we never did, steal our property, and treat us like criminals.

I'd be happy to part ways with them.

ScytheSong

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2021, 06:16:48 PM »
Question in my mind is whether ScytheSong is just trying to rile people up or is being sincere. It's hard to believe sincerity when engaging in such bad tactics. Jump into a thread, make a bunch of questionable statements meant to frame discussion, then derail the whole thread by being evasive.

Just to try and keep this on track, much of critiques of power from figures such as Foucault that form the foundation of CRT have valuable insights worth paying attention to. Cynical Theories by Lindsay & Pluckrose does a fairly good job at showing the genealogy of these ideas.

The issue we see when it comes to CRT is its particularist anti-white agenda and focus on legalism rather than real-world harm.

It's pretty obvious when you look at the language they've purposefully constructed, talking about "White Fragility" "Whiteness" etc. Of course the claim is that these aren't meant specifically as ethnic markers. Lets be real -- It's explicitly targeting Whites/Europeans, and that's precisely why CRT has any degree of popularity, because it trades on racially-motived envy and hatred. Without that emotional hook it's just up-its-own-ass philosophizing about the nature of power and privilege, which we've already seen has no blood to actually motivate people.

What I've never had explained to me by a CRT person is why it's bad for European people to build societies that benefit European peoples. Seems like it's perfectly okay for Arabs to build Arab countries to benefit Arabs, for Africans to build African countries to benefit Africans, for Asians to build Asian countries to benefit Asians -- In many cases these people are doing shit that is way more shady and nefarious than what CRT people complain about -- But only European peoples are not allowed to build their own societies with their own rules for the benefit of themselves & their posterity.

Not playing that game.

So, one thing to note, I refuse to conflate Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility and related anti-racism training (some of which is a scam, including taking her comments out of context and without permission -- she sued Coca-Cola over this) and Critical Race Theory. The former is almost all either badly framed, uses jargon that is worse than useless, so basic that anyone who has had any exposure to the issues involved rolls their eyes, or is an outright grift. I can only think of one seminar that is actually well built for use in anti-racism training, but it involves actually going to and living in another country as a minority for a week.

Critical Race Theory, the way I understand and use it, is not that. CRT is a way of examining the legal history of the United States (that could be extended to other places, I suppose -- Japanese treatment of Koreans and other Gaijin, Native Hawai'ians and Haoles, Australian Whites and their aboriginal and Chinese minorities  are just a few examples off the top of my head) to examine how legal systems were used to keep the majority in power and the minority out of power, even in places where they were no longer technically a majority. Mind you, the construction of race that they use seems simplistic to me, but the times and places that they are examining were equally simplistic.

The problem continues to be that, because I haven't bent on this distinction, I can be seen as eating my cake and having it still -- I'll write a lot of folks off who are blathering about how evil CRT is because I know that what they're talking about is anti-racism, not CRT as I understand it.

moonsweeper

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2021, 06:25:58 PM »
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...
"I have a very hard time taking seriously someone who has the time and resources to protest capitalism, while walking around in Nike shoes and drinking Starbucks, while filming it on their iPhone."  --  Alderaan Crumbs

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Trond

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2021, 06:48:05 PM »
This is from a CRT textbook introduction:

The critical race theory (CRT) movement is a collection of activists and scholars interested in studying and transform- ing the relationship among race, racism, and power. The movement considers many of the same issues that conven- tional civil rights and ethnic studies discourses take up, but places them in a broader perspective that includes econom- ics, history, context, group- and self-interest, and even feel- ings and the unconscious. Unlike traditional civil rights, which embraces incrementalism and step-by-step progress, critical race theory questions the very foundations of the lib- eral order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, En- lightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitu- tional law.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 06:58:26 PM by Trond »

Trond

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2021, 06:57:47 PM »
But wait, there is more  ;D

As the reader will see, critical race theory builds on the in- sights of two previous movements, critical legal studies and radical feminism, to both of which it owes a large debt.


All of this from:
Critical Race Theory An Introduction
By Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic

SHARK

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2021, 07:28:13 PM »
...and we're back to the old "but 'true' communism has never been tried" argument...

Greetings!

That's right, Moonsweeper! You don't agree with his "understanding" of CRT, then that just shows how YOU don't understand CRT. Amazing. More and more people are quite clear in their understanding precisely of what CRT is--and reject it as terrible, racist, Marxist-inspired garbage.

The condescending self-righteousness reminds me of a Liberal jello-brained professor I had in college who essentially said the same thing--"Well, if you were as educated and well-traveled as I am, you would agree with my interpretation."

CRT isn't some deep, complex fucking mystery. People understand it very clearly--and have justly condemned it, and resist such bullshit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Pat
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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2021, 08:05:57 PM »
Quote
I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

The part of the Constitution that was being trampled on was Article II, Section 1, as amended. You know the part where the Congress in separate sessions are required by the Constitution to open, read, and count the ballots? The process  that the rioters/protesters/assholes were breaking into the Capitol building to disrupt (which was successful) or prevent (Which was unsuccessful), possibly by killing the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate (again, unsuccessful)?
Funny how those premeditated attempted murderers didn't bring a single firearm to the Capitol. Serious oversight, if you want to kill scumbags.

So by that logic, I assume you consider the 2018 insurrection during the confirmation hearings, where rioter/protestors/assholes broke into the Capitol to disrupt (which was partially successful) or prevent (unsuccessful) Kavanaugh's confirmation, possibly by assassinating him, was another example of trampling all over the Constitution, and that we should track down all those people, ruin their lives, file federal charges against all of them, and launch an investigation into the Critical Theorists and other leftist extremists who have proven to be such an existential threat to our democracy?