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Author Topic: Turning the corner on "woke"?  (Read 44669 times)

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #525 on: May 14, 2022, 11:57:30 AM »
That said I've not seen any 'secular arguments' that would convince me either.
Well there are secular arguments that I find convincing...
Pro-Life and Libertarian
Why All Libertarians Should Be Pro-Life

There's a problem, though. How are we defining life here? Sure, cells are 'alive' but so is bacteria. And at the early stages, are the clump of cells a person, are they sentient? What are the criteria for life?

I would take the general scientific consensus that at the early stages they are not 'alive' in the sense of them being considered an individual 'human being'. Now late-stage abortion is a very different issue and I'd then say those arguments could come into effect (unless the woman is going to die because of the pregnancy).




"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #526 on: May 14, 2022, 11:58:32 AM »
I believe Christopher Hitchens also made some strong arguments for the pro-life side, I would Loooooooooooove to see Grim Jim try and swallow that pill. I bet he would claim HE's smarter than the guy.

Well he's not. You listen to that guy and he WILL make you question a lot of stuff. I know he made do so.

Hitchens was a freakin' genius and one of my all-time heroes. He destroys religion and is no fan of Islam. He's was definitely far smarter than most in the skeptical movement too. But I was never particularly moved by his opinions on abortion or the justification for invading (Iraq the second time).

Even the smartest people on the planet can be wrong. Except for Dr. Steven Novella I've not heard him be wrong about anything so far. :)

Yeah, but you'd need to be smarter than him to demonstrate he is wrong. You can't.

But I do agree about invading Iraq, he was out of his dept there. Because those are topics he wasn't as versed: Geopolitics, and other stuff. On Philosophy tho? On Logic? Nah, even dead he runs in circles around both you and Grim Jim.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #527 on: May 14, 2022, 12:00:08 PM »
That said I've not seen any 'secular arguments' that would convince me either.
Well there are secular arguments that I find convincing...
Pro-Life and Libertarian
Why All Libertarians Should Be Pro-Life

There's a problem, though. How are we defining life here? Sure, cells are 'alive' but so is bacteria. And at the early stages, are the clump of cells a person, are they sentient? What are the criteria for life?

I would take the general scientific consensus that at the early stages they are not 'alive' in the sense of them being considered an individual 'human being'. Now late-stage abortion is a very different issue and I'd then say those arguments could come into effect (unless the woman is going to die because of the pregnancy).

Unless the baby is already dead, you're aware there's no need to kill the baby to save the mother right?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #528 on: May 14, 2022, 12:09:42 PM »
I believe Christopher Hitchens also made some strong arguments for the pro-life side, I would Loooooooooooove to see Grim Jim try and swallow that pill. I bet he would claim HE's smarter than the guy.

Well he's not. You listen to that guy and he WILL make you question a lot of stuff. I know he made do so.

Hitchens was a freakin' genius and one of my all-time heroes. He destroys religion and is no fan of Islam. He's was definitely far smarter than most in the skeptical movement too. But I was never particularly moved by his opinions on abortion or the justification for invading (Iraq the second time).

Even the smartest people on the planet can be wrong. Except for Dr. Steven Novella I've not heard him be wrong about anything so far. :)

Yeah, but you'd need to be smarter than him to demonstrate he is wrong. You can't.

But I do agree about invading Iraq, he was out of his dept there. Because those are topics he wasn't as versed: Geopolitics, and other stuff. On Philosophy tho? On Logic? Nah, even dead he runs in circles around both you and Grim Jim.

He runs circles around everyone including you. But I don't buy his argument (on this one occasion).

Interestingly enough though, you just said that one has to be 'smarter' than Hitchen's to prove he's wrong. And yet you've just said he was wrong about Iraq. And yet, you're nowhere near his intellect. That's bizarre logic to take.

Like I said the smartest people can be wrong... I mean, if you want to go that route I could start bringing up plenty of names in the skeptical community who are far smarter than anyone here (myself included). But that's a case of copy and paste... copy and paste... copy and paste...

The real question here is when does life occur? I mean, when can you consider the clump of cells to be an actual person? Now, you or anyone else here 'aint smart enough to convince the scientific community when that date is (or me for that matter).




"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #529 on: May 14, 2022, 12:10:45 PM »
dp
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #530 on: May 14, 2022, 12:12:30 PM »
you're aware there's no need to kill the baby to save the mother right?

Savita Halappanavar.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #531 on: May 14, 2022, 12:29:11 PM »
I believe Christopher Hitchens also made some strong arguments for the pro-life side, I would Loooooooooooove to see Grim Jim try and swallow that pill. I bet he would claim HE's smarter than the guy.

Well he's not. You listen to that guy and he WILL make you question a lot of stuff. I know he made do so.

Hitchens was a freakin' genius and one of my all-time heroes. He destroys religion and is no fan of Islam. He's was definitely far smarter than most in the skeptical movement too. But I was never particularly moved by his opinions on abortion or the justification for invading (Iraq the second time).

Even the smartest people on the planet can be wrong. Except for Dr. Steven Novella I've not heard him be wrong about anything so far. :)

Yeah, but you'd need to be smarter than him to demonstrate he is wrong. You can't.

But I do agree about invading Iraq, he was out of his dept there. Because those are topics he wasn't as versed: Geopolitics, and other stuff. On Philosophy tho? On Logic? Nah, even dead he runs in circles around both you and Grim Jim.

He runs circles around everyone including you. But I don't buy his argument (on this one occasion).

Interestingly enough though, you just said that one has to be 'smarter' than Hitchen's to prove he's wrong. And yet you've just said he was wrong about Iraq. And yet, you're nowhere near his intellect. That's bizarre logic to take.

Like I said the smartest people can be wrong... I mean, if you want to go that route I could start bringing up plenty of names in the skeptical community who are far smarter than anyone here (myself included). But that's a case of copy and paste... copy and paste... copy and paste...

The real question here is when does life occur? I mean, when can you consider the clump of cells to be an actual person? Now, you or anyone else here 'aint smart enough to convince the scientific community when that date is (or me for that matter).

Person: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person

Human: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/human

Human biological definition: https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/human

When do scientists think human life begins? https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703

So, the "scientific community" already agrees with me on the vast majority, even VERY Pro-Choice ones do.

So, given that we've established that human life begins at fertilization, and in view of the prior definitions it would follow that your "clump of cells" is a human ergo a person.

Notice I'm not using ANY religious arguments or emotional appeals, because I don't need to.

But Grim Jim and probably you feel like you're smarter than the scientists when they disagree with you.

So, now we have your Idol Christopher Hitchens and 95% of all biologists on my corner, including at the very least 69% of the VERY Pro-Choice biologists, and 74% of the strong democrats.

Are you still claiming they all are wrong?

Edited to add:

As for the Iraq invasion... I think we can judge things by their results... Which leads me to conclude he was wrong there and that it might have something to do with him being out of his dept because geo-politics and other stuff were not his expertise.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 12:31:28 PM by GeekyBugle »
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #532 on: May 14, 2022, 12:36:33 PM »
you're aware there's no need to kill the baby to save the mother right?

Savita Halappanavar.

Funny, I'm talking about late term abortions and mention nthat unles the baby is already dead you don't need to kill it to save the mother and you answer with a woman that died because her misscarriage was inevitable but the doctors didn't do shit.

Do you always argue this disingenuously? Is that why you cut the quote where you did?

No worries I'll put it below here in a few.

That said I've not seen any 'secular arguments' that would convince me either.
Well there are secular arguments that I find convincing...
Pro-Life and Libertarian
Why All Libertarians Should Be Pro-Life

There's a problem, though. How are we defining life here? Sure, cells are 'alive' but so is bacteria. And at the early stages, are the clump of cells a person, are they sentient? What are the criteria for life?

I would take the general scientific consensus that at the early stages they are not 'alive' in the sense of them being considered an individual 'human being'. Now late-stage abortion is a very different issue and I'd then say those arguments could come into effect (unless the woman is going to die because of the pregnancy).

Unless the baby is already dead, you're aware there's no need to kill the baby to save the mother right?

So? Why the fuck are you being a disingenuous twat?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #533 on: May 14, 2022, 12:43:39 PM »
So? Why the fuck are you being a disingenuous twat?


FUCK you you knob-headed CUNT. :)
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #534 on: May 14, 2022, 12:44:55 PM »
I believe Christopher Hitchens also made some strong arguments for the pro-life side, I would Loooooooooooove to see Grim Jim try and swallow that pill. I bet he would claim HE's smarter than the guy.

Well he's not. You listen to that guy and he WILL make you question a lot of stuff. I know he made do so.

Hitchens was a freakin' genius and one of my all-time heroes. He destroys religion and is no fan of Islam. He's was definitely far smarter than most in the skeptical movement too. But I was never particularly moved by his opinions on abortion or the justification for invading (Iraq the second time).

Even the smartest people on the planet can be wrong. Except for Dr. Steven Novella I've not heard him be wrong about anything so far. :)

Yeah, but you'd need to be smarter than him to demonstrate he is wrong. You can't.

But I do agree about invading Iraq, he was out of his dept there. Because those are topics he wasn't as versed: Geopolitics, and other stuff. On Philosophy tho? On Logic? Nah, even dead he runs in circles around both you and Grim Jim.

He runs circles around everyone including you. But I don't buy his argument (on this one occasion).

Interestingly enough though, you just said that one has to be 'smarter' than Hitchen's to prove he's wrong. And yet you've just said he was wrong about Iraq. And yet, you're nowhere near his intellect. That's bizarre logic to take.

Like I said the smartest people can be wrong... I mean, if you want to go that route I could start bringing up plenty of names in the skeptical community who are far smarter than anyone here (myself included). But that's a case of copy and paste... copy and paste... copy and paste...

The real question here is when does life occur? I mean, when can you consider the clump of cells to be an actual person? Now, you or anyone else here 'aint smart enough to convince the scientific community when that date is (or me for that matter).

Person: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person

Human: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/human

Human biological definition: https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/human

When do scientists think human life begins? https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703

So, the "scientific community" already agrees with me on the vast majority, even VERY Pro-Choice ones do.

So, given that we've established that human life begins at fertilization, and in view of the prior definitions it would follow that your "clump of cells" is a human ergo a person.

Notice I'm not using ANY religious arguments or emotional appeals, because I don't need to.

But Grim Jim and probably you feel like you're smarter than the scientists when they disagree with you.

So, now we have your Idol Christopher Hitchens and 95% of all biologists on my corner, including at the very least 69% of the VERY Pro-Choice biologists, and 74% of the strong democrats.

Are you still claiming they all are wrong?

Edited to add:

As for the Iraq invasion... I think we can judge things by their results... Which leads me to conclude he was wrong there and that it might have something to do with him being out of his dept because geo-politics and other stuff were not his expertise.

Oooh.. A load of links. Any cunt can do that.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

DocJones

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #535 on: May 14, 2022, 12:45:17 PM »
That said I've not seen any 'secular arguments' that would convince me either.
Well there are secular arguments that I find convincing...
Pro-Life and Libertarian
Why All Libertarians Should Be Pro-Life

There's a problem, though. How are we defining life here? Sure, cells are 'alive' but so is bacteria. And at the early stages, are the clump of cells a person, are they sentient? What are the criteria for life?
That's laid out in the first article.  You may disagree, but they are clearly objective definitions of both life and human being.
Obviously, both need be true, for protection of the natural rights to life.   We don't recognize bacteria rights, chicken
rights (PETA be damned), or liver cell rights only live human beings have  rights. 

I believe the only question is when may those rights be alienated.  For me it's the right to self defense. 
When carrying the child to term presents a life threat to the mother.  For example, an ectopic pregnancy,
in which the child cannot be carried to term and mother would likely die.  And when the mother need choose
medical treatment which would likely kill the child but save her life (cancer treatment for instance) .

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #536 on: May 14, 2022, 12:51:39 PM »
You may disagree, but they are clearly objective definitions of both life and human being.
Obviously, both need be true, for protection of the natural rights to life.   We don't recognize bacteria rights, chicken
rights (PETA be damned), or liver cell rights only live human beings have  rights. 

I believe the only question is when may those rights be alienated.  For me it's the right to self defense. 
When carrying the child to term presents a life threat to the mother.  For example, an ectopic pregnancy,
in which the child cannot be carried to term and mother would likely die.  And when the mother need choose
medical treatment which would likely kill the child but save her life (cancer treatment for instance) .

I see what you're saying, man. But that's the question, I'm asking you at what stage do we consider it to be a person? The term life is nebulous at best (in the early stages).

As a self-defense instructor, I fully agree with the right to self-defense but at what stage can we justify the right to life? I'm going to go with the studies my country did in order to change the abortion laws and as far as I'm concerned they got it right at 12 weeks.

Going any later then we are going into territory that I'm not all that comfortable with unless the mother is in danger.







"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #537 on: May 14, 2022, 12:51:44 PM »
So? Why the fuck are you being a disingenuous twat?


FUCK you you knob-headed CUNT. :)

I believe Christopher Hitchens also made some strong arguments for the pro-life side, I would Loooooooooooove to see Grim Jim try and swallow that pill. I bet he would claim HE's smarter than the guy.

Well he's not. You listen to that guy and he WILL make you question a lot of stuff. I know he made do so.

Hitchens was a freakin' genius and one of my all-time heroes. He destroys religion and is no fan of Islam. He's was definitely far smarter than most in the skeptical movement too. But I was never particularly moved by his opinions on abortion or the justification for invading (Iraq the second time).

Even the smartest people on the planet can be wrong. Except for Dr. Steven Novella I've not heard him be wrong about anything so far. :)

Yeah, but you'd need to be smarter than him to demonstrate he is wrong. You can't.

But I do agree about invading Iraq, he was out of his dept there. Because those are topics he wasn't as versed: Geopolitics, and other stuff. On Philosophy tho? On Logic? Nah, even dead he runs in circles around both you and Grim Jim.

He runs circles around everyone including you. But I don't buy his argument (on this one occasion).

Interestingly enough though, you just said that one has to be 'smarter' than Hitchen's to prove he's wrong. And yet you've just said he was wrong about Iraq. And yet, you're nowhere near his intellect. That's bizarre logic to take.

Like I said the smartest people can be wrong... I mean, if you want to go that route I could start bringing up plenty of names in the skeptical community who are far smarter than anyone here (myself included). But that's a case of copy and paste... copy and paste... copy and paste...

The real question here is when does life occur? I mean, when can you consider the clump of cells to be an actual person? Now, you or anyone else here 'aint smart enough to convince the scientific community when that date is (or me for that matter).

Person: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person

Human: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/human

Human biological definition: https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/human

When do scientists think human life begins? https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703

So, the "scientific community" already agrees with me on the vast majority, even VERY Pro-Choice ones do.

So, given that we've established that human life begins at fertilization, and in view of the prior definitions it would follow that your "clump of cells" is a human ergo a person.

Notice I'm not using ANY religious arguments or emotional appeals, because I don't need to.

But Grim Jim and probably you feel like you're smarter than the scientists when they disagree with you.

So, now we have your Idol Christopher Hitchens and 95% of all biologists on my corner, including at the very least 69% of the VERY Pro-Choice biologists, and 74% of the strong democrats.

Are you still claiming they all are wrong?

Edited to add:

As for the Iraq invasion... I think we can judge things by their results... Which leads me to conclude he was wrong there and that it might have something to do with him being out of his dept because geo-politics and other stuff were not his expertise.

Oooh.. A load of links. Any cunt can do that.

Oooh... A bunch of insults and no logical arguments! Any disingenuous twat can do that! And you should know since you ARE one.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #538 on: May 14, 2022, 12:53:23 PM »
So? Why the fuck are you being a disingenuous twat?

You started it... :)

So you can eat shit you little ponce.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #539 on: May 14, 2022, 01:03:01 PM »
So? Why the fuck are you being a disingenuous twat?

You started it... :)

So you can eat shit you little ponce.

Yep, I insulted you, I'm not offended by your weak ass insults. My point is you ONLY have insults and no arguments. And you're still a disingenuous twat.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell