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Author Topic: Turning the corner on "woke"?  (Read 16120 times)

Trond

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2021, 11:52:11 AM »
This may be relevant.

During the oughts and teens (2000-2010's), one of the big criticisms from the left about armed response against radical Islamism was that it would simply radicalize more Muslims and create more terrorists.

Now, skip forward to present day and we're told 'well, if you become radicalized by our racial agenda, you were probably already a bigot/Nazi/etc'.

Which is it? Because neither is a particularly good look for the left. Either the Islamists were always radicals, in which case we should have been putting the fear of Allah in them; or their agenda is radicalizing people and they don't want to admit it.

A lot of Western Liberals *still* have no clue about the divisions and tensions in Islam.  The Wahhabist sect is founded on the concept of "Jihad is preemptive self-defence". It also aggressively proselytizes, including other sects of Islam (those madrassas set up in poorer countries by Saudi Arabia? Almost universally Wahhabist, because the House of Saud is Wahhabist). The mainline Sunni and Shi'a sects are much less militant, but are significantly less likely to proselytize. This is similar to the actions of the White Nationalist/White Supremacist movements in the United States, who have been actively recruiting white folks, especially white law enforcement and (ex-)military, into their movements since just shortly after Ruby Ridge. Does anyone else here remember the Aryan Nations changing to "White Separatists" from "White Supremacists" because "We aren't as crazy as those The Order people?" They were actively looking for ways to make themselves more palatable to Middle America -- and today we have the Oathkeepers and Proud Boys as their spiritual descendants.

So, no, neither group was radicalized by any one else. They simply were aggressively recruiting and then radicalizing the kind of people they thought would be useful to their cause.

Again with the Proud Boys? WTF did they do? Burned a BLM flag? A couple of them wandered into the Capitol building when others had already broken into it? (they weren't even there in force because they had nothing planned for that day) OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020? Proud Boys don't even register, except for the hysteria. And how are they "spiritual descendants" of white supremacists?

ScytheSong

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2021, 11:54:18 AM »
That's nice. You didn't refute a thing I said.

The left has managed to generate its own radical-right opposition. Good job!

Eeeh... *wiggles hand back and forth* The hard "Left" and hard "Right" have been ginning each other up over what could be considered petty nonsense since the days of the Roman Republic. But most of the radicalization is actually done internally, rather than externally. It's my opinion that, had someone taken out the House of Saud in the 1950's, there would be fewer radicalized Moslems in the world. Similarly, if someone had done a clean sweep of the white supremacist groups after Timothy McVeigh, we'd be seeing less idiocy from what are now called White Nationalists.

Of course, by your logic, the BLM protests getting violent is just a natural radicalization caused by the actions and rhetoric of Law Enforcement, so maybe you're right.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 12:02:34 PM by ScytheSong »

ScytheSong

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2021, 12:01:14 PM »
Again with the Proud Boys? WTF did they do? Burned a BLM flag? A couple of them wandered into the Capitol building when others had already broken into it? (they weren't even there in force because they had nothing planned for that day) OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020? Proud Boys don't even register, except for the hysteria. And how are they "spiritual descendants" of white supremacists?

Go and look at the NY Time's minute-by-minute video of the January 6 attack. Proud Boys were trying to get into the Capitol building before President Trump's speech was even ending. A Proud Boy was the first one to start breaking glass (with a stolen police riot shield) in the Capitol. Proud Boys in tactical gear were the people who lead the charge on the east side of the Capitol, and were the ones who were using radios to tell each other where the weak points in the police line were. They did *not* just walk in after other people were inside, they were at the front of an attempt to murder members of Congress and the Vice President.

ThatChrisGuy

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2021, 12:03:21 PM »
Sundown towns? Isn't it weird how we have all these scary names for things white people allegedly did a century ago (I'm sure there's some truth to it, but also a lot of motivated exaggeration), but our lexicon of ominous phrases doesn't have a word for the same phenomenon happening to whites?

Well I know Arab, AL had a sundown policy into the early '90s, so some of this shit is more recent than you might expect.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2021, 12:52:19 PM »
The Proud Boys are terrible at white supremacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio
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jhkim

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2021, 01:26:53 PM »
What I came here to say is this: There may be a racist hate ideology out there, and something that feels uncomfortably like anti-White racism certainly shows up in anti-racism training, but the actual racist hate ideology is not Critical Race Theory, which is much more limited than what Christopher Rufo (see: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory ) would like you to believe.

Hi, ScytheSong. Thanks for the discussion. As far as I can tell, both liberals and conservatives have been unclear about what Critical Race Theory (CRT) is. Notably, liberals have still referred to Republican state laws as being "anti-CRT" even though they don't mention CRT and have nothing that prevents teaching about black history. For example, this is the relevant clause in Idaho Bill HB 377,

Quote
No public institution of higher education, school district, or public school, including a public charter school, shall direct or otherwise compel students to personally affirm, adopt, or adhere to any of the following tenets:
  (i) That any sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin is inherently superior or inferior;
  (ii) That individuals should be adversely treated on the basis of their sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin; or
  (iii) That individuals, by virtue of sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin, are inherently responsible for actions committed in the past by other members of the same sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin.
(b) No distinction or classification of students shall be made on account of race or color.
(c) No course of instruction or unit of study directing or otherwise compelling students to personally affirm, adopt, or adhere to any of the tenets identified in paragraph (a) of this subsection shall be used or introduced in any institution of higher education, any school district, or any public school, including a public charter school.

Yet this has still been referred to by liberals as being anti-CRT. I haven't studied CRT, but from a scanning of academic papers, it seems like it is a loose movement that doesn't have a clear core set of principles. This was an article by Gary Peller trying to describe,

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/06/30/critical-race-theory-lightning-rod-opinion-497046

The most controversial points may or may not be a part of Critical Race Theory, but I have seen them expressed. One of them is going beyond saying that the U.S. not a race-neutral meritocracy, but that race-neutral meritocracy is not an ideal to strive for, because the concept is flawed. This is a fundamental clash of philosophy. As Peller puts it,

Quote
We likewise question the traditional ways that liberals have defended affirmative action as a useful exception to a presumed race-blind ideal of “merit.” To us, the very definitions of merit reflect racial and other forms of social power.

Another is to what degree slavery and racism were inherent in the U.S. system as founded - which seems more about spin than about substance. Everyone agrees that slavery was in the Constitution - the question is how to characterize its part in it.

I'm not saying these are inherently in Critical Race Theory, but they are perceived to be, by people on both sides.

Trond

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2021, 01:31:41 PM »
Go and look at the NY Time's minute-by-minute video of the January 6 attack. Proud Boys were trying to get into the Capitol building before President Trump's speech was even ending. A Proud Boy was the first one to start breaking glass (with a stolen police riot shield) in the Capitol. Proud Boys in tactical gear were the people who lead the charge on the east side of the Capitol, and were the ones who were using radios to tell each other where the weak points in the police line were. They did *not* just walk in after other people were inside, they were at the front of an attempt to murder members of Congress and the Vice President.

I don't particularly like giving NY Times clicks anymore, after I realized that they are willingly lying to everyone's face, race-baiting, hiring people who hate whites etc. But is this video the one you're talking about?
https://www.joemygod.com/2021/06/nyt-issues-astounding-minute-by-minute-video-analysis-of-the-cultist-insurrection-at-the-us-capitol-video/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=939e0bf2a3f4712ac7412292e331d011fe3ab007-1625246789-0-AZwadZyfGH_LSgOD-xsFa3f2cMUkcrEO6YvgcLin2mET1OAj6zIEIivhVL_YK9Ll0BXqh9nS0y6XLNXUvi2sZLb478DzBshabyOxeHggsUyVeqgpFN25KoRTOtbi1l2qgphIBJpOvIQQrwFoo4NlubJsFugYkJ_iItQG7qMGCAzOFIPHf3lRSBFORXO3tGFdrBtpxxrdTy49_CGU1mNAvgghM-7ka5HPm7UJbt70UB4Mf3ohFfKxcCwo_6_h5BGwL6l19WeQq8Pgib4sBnK9fAqewSm73L_xY4aiBY0vCcSJxSSAVu9ORmYftkhpLFnrpcfjtpvbMNFCj2HPlo2OQi8F3LK6IUrRvI9hztB5IGGKrzwMSdN6ByGsdX0UD73htkoAkXtESL60TEvOj5l0yLpJMqUOgAqueHsHJ_YkFKyBf6jcSJ8JpeKqYfCKrNrjRmjlS27C7SjG8zTS1Hzan7-PHgiJxNMISU1Ts1WIt_XJxkj9gmhgnYp8Vev8Vaxf79d4Kux_B0juN1VzkLgAAZPL-QaqHyqIn8hje5VYGdHx

ScytheSong

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2021, 02:42:37 PM »
Go and look at the NY Time's minute-by-minute video of the January 6 attack. Proud Boys were trying to get into the Capitol building before President Trump's speech was even ending. A Proud Boy was the first one to start breaking glass (with a stolen police riot shield) in the Capitol. Proud Boys in tactical gear were the people who lead the charge on the east side of the Capitol, and were the ones who were using radios to tell each other where the weak points in the police line were. They did *not* just walk in after other people were inside, they were at the front of an attempt to murder members of Congress and the Vice President.

I don't particularly like giving NY Times clicks anymore, after I realized that they are willingly lying to everyone's face, race-baiting, hiring people who hate whites etc. But is this video the one you're talking about?
https://www.joemygod.com/2021/06/nyt-issues-astounding-minute-by-minute-video-analysis-of-the-cultist-insurrection-at-the-us-capitol-video/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=939e0bf2a3f4712ac7412292e331d011fe3ab007-1625246789-0-AZwadZyfGH_LSgOD-xsFa3f2cMUkcrEO6YvgcLin2mET1OAj6zIEIivhVL_YK9Ll0BXqh9nS0y6XLNXUvi2sZLb478DzBshabyOxeHggsUyVeqgpFN25KoRTOtbi1l2qgphIBJpOvIQQrwFoo4NlubJsFugYkJ_iItQG7qMGCAzOFIPHf3lRSBFORXO3tGFdrBtpxxrdTy49_CGU1mNAvgghM-7ka5HPm7UJbt70UB4Mf3ohFfKxcCwo_6_h5BGwL6l19WeQq8Pgib4sBnK9fAqewSm73L_xY4aiBY0vCcSJxSSAVu9ORmYftkhpLFnrpcfjtpvbMNFCj2HPlo2OQi8F3LK6IUrRvI9hztB5IGGKrzwMSdN6ByGsdX0UD73htkoAkXtESL60TEvOj5l0yLpJMqUOgAqueHsHJ_YkFKyBf6jcSJ8JpeKqYfCKrNrjRmjlS27C7SjG8zTS1Hzan7-PHgiJxNMISU1Ts1WIt_XJxkj9gmhgnYp8Vev8Vaxf79d4Kux_B0juN1VzkLgAAZPL-QaqHyqIn8hje5VYGdHx

That article does indeed have the video I saw. 40 minutes, title "Day of Rage," splash of a Qanon guy yelling at the camera.

DocJones

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2021, 02:43:04 PM »
OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020?

Wait.  Sorry I'm confusing this with the "insurrection" of September 2018 when thousands stormed the Capitol in order to disrupt the confirmation hearings of a judge.  Around 1000 were arrested and frog marched out of the Capitol and immediately released.  For some reason they were never prosecuted.  So much for equal treatment under the law.

Trond

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2021, 02:49:34 PM »
Go and look at the NY Time's minute-by-minute video of the January 6 attack. Proud Boys were trying to get into the Capitol building before President Trump's speech was even ending. A Proud Boy was the first one to start breaking glass (with a stolen police riot shield) in the Capitol. Proud Boys in tactical gear were the people who lead the charge on the east side of the Capitol, and were the ones who were using radios to tell each other where the weak points in the police line were. They did *not* just walk in after other people were inside, they were at the front of an attempt to murder members of Congress and the Vice President.

OK about the video. Problems abound : Proud Boys became famous because Trump "evoked" them? Not mentioning that it was Biden who brought them up in the debate and who arguably made them famous by doing that. Later cutting the part of Trump's speech when he says "peacefully" because that doesn't fit the narrative. They even put voices saying "take the capitol" on top of Trump's voice. Not because they didn't have a better recording, but in case you didn't get the NYT message.

Had to chuckle that they show as part of the evidence a Republican who  says "by and large it was a peaceful protest", when Democrats have been doing just that throughout 2020s riots, which actually affected normal people, burned parts of cities down, and lead to a spiral of violence that still has not abated. They looted right in front of my face in my neighborhood for instance. In both cases it rings hollow, but holy crap how much bigger the Democrat lie was. And I have noticed a refusal on the left to acknowledge that 2020 had something to do with Jan 6. Of course it did, people felt threatened by violence all across the country, but that correlation isn't mentioned even once. They also try to point out the irony of rioters supporting the police, when that irony clearly also goes both ways.

They show a lot of Proud Boys at first (although not Enrique Tarrio, who wasn't there, according to Tarrio because the Proud Boys hadn't planned anything for that day), but during the riots mostly two or three show up. The large group seems to have been dissolved. Could it be that Tarrio is telling the truth? One who is clearly involved (Ethan Nordean) everyone agrees is a member. So yes, members were there during the breach, I'll give you that.

Here's something weird; in most catastrophes etc. numbers of reported dead rise after a while, as what happened becomes more clear and bodies are counted. In this case the number of dead fell from 5 to 2 (both Trump supporters). Sounds a bit like the media were trying hard to make it sound worse than it was.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 02:51:49 PM by Trond »

ScytheSong

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2021, 02:59:49 PM »
OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020?
Wait.  Sorry I'm confusing this with the "insurrection" of September 2018 when thousands stormed the Capitol in order to disrupt the confirmation hearings of a judge.  Around 1000 were arrested and frog marched out of the Capitol and immediately released.  For some reason they were never prosecuted.  So much for equal treatment under the law.

And what was the estimated damage to the Capitol? In dollars? Oh, right, Zero. And the number I get for numbers arrested is around 200, not around 1000. And at least one guy spent a night in jail. So, given minor nitpicks, sure. So what?

Ratman_tf

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2021, 03:02:37 PM »
What I came here to say is this: There may be a racist hate ideology out there, and something that feels uncomfortably like anti-White racism certainly shows up in anti-racism training, but the actual racist hate ideology is not Critical Race Theory, which is much more limited than what Christopher Rufo (see: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory ) would like you to believe.

Hi, ScytheSong. Thanks for the discussion. As far as I can tell, both liberals and conservatives have been unclear about what Critical Race Theory (CRT) is. Notably, liberals have still referred to Republican state laws as being "anti-CRT" even though they don't mention CRT and have nothing that prevents teaching about black history. For example, this is the relevant clause in Idaho Bill HB 377,

Quote
No public institution of higher education, school district, or public school, including a public charter school, shall direct or otherwise compel students to personally affirm, adopt, or adhere to any of the following tenets:
  (i) That any sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin is inherently superior or inferior;
  (ii) That individuals should be adversely treated on the basis of their sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin; or
  (iii) That individuals, by virtue of sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin, are inherently responsible for actions committed in the past by other members of the same sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin.
(b) No distinction or classification of students shall be made on account of race or color.
(c) No course of instruction or unit of study directing or otherwise compelling students to personally affirm, adopt, or adhere to any of the tenets identified in paragraph (a) of this subsection shall be used or introduced in any institution of higher education, any school district, or any public school, including a public charter school.

Yet this has still been referred to by liberals as being anti-CRT. I haven't studied CRT, but from a scanning of academic papers, it seems like it is a loose movement that doesn't have a clear core set of principles. This was an article by Gary Peller trying to describe,

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/06/30/critical-race-theory-lightning-rod-opinion-497046

Most CRT "Experts" don't seem to know what the hell they're talking about.

Quote
CRT is not a racialist ideology that declares all whites to be privileged oppressors, and CRT is not taught in public schools.

https://cityordinances.durhamnc.gov/OnBaseAgendaOnline/Documents/ViewDocument/Final-Published%20Attachment%20-%2014757%20-%20RESOLUTION%20-%201%20-%20RESOLUTION%20IN%20SUPPORT%20.pdf?meetingId=464&documentType=Agenda&itemId=22645&publishId=97652&isSection=false

Quote
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Durham City Council calls upon our
state and federal representatives to work toward the immediate, opposition to HB324
and work to ensure black history and critical race theory is included in our students’
public school education:
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moonsweeper

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2021, 03:23:34 PM »
So until fairly recently, then...

One wonders...Do you lecture your German friends on their Nazi heritage or your Japanese friends on how to absolve themselves for Korea and Nanking?

Heh. Born in 1970, thank you very much. But then, I went to a community college (1988-1990) where the two largest groups were the Black Student Union and the Gay and Lesbian Alliance.  Fundamentalist white boy goes to college and meets people who aren't like him, it's an old, old story.

Christ, that's even worse...I was willing to give you a little leeway for being young...sad.

You actually had to get to college in order to realize that minorities had been treated badly and everyone should be judged individually based on their own actions??

Hell I grew up in an area with less than half a percent non-white population, and we learned that from our parents and history classes in school.

And, no. My German friends get more crap for the entire Wars of Religion and Cuius regio, eius religio thing. I had Japanese Nissei and Issei friends growing up, but we mostly talked about Judo and what the best Japanese food was.

So, I was right.  It is just the white Americans who have to recognize their inherent racism and the blood debt they owe.
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SHARK

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2021, 03:25:48 PM »
Greetings!

Critical Race Theory is pure anti-white RACISM deeply rooted in Marxist ideology and given an academic glossed paintjob.

All of the piggy-squealing in defense of Critical Race Theory amounts to nothing more than obtuse gaslighting promoted by anti-white racists, race-grifting charlatans, demagogues, and other malevolent agent-provocateurs that seek the corruption and degradation of America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You are wrong. But  then, what are you "always faithful" to, Mr. Shark? The United States of America, its people and Constitution, or just the kind of people who look and think like you? You seemed to be plenty happy when the constitution was being trampled on by a bunch of White Supremacist idiots back in January.

Greetings!

Heh. No, I'm not wrong. I know what Critical Race Theory is all about. It is exactly as I described it. Anyone who wants to think about it differently is sadly ignorant, uninformed, or brainwashed.

I am faithful to that which is worthy of being faithful to. My God, Family, Corps, and Country. As for people and what they look like? I don't happen to give a damn if someone "Looks like me" or not. They can be purple, zebra striped, whatever. As for "Thinking like me"--well, yeah, obviously, there is some importance to that and having essential compatibilities and commonalties. Fucking racists, Marxists, anarchists, ANTIFA, BLM thugs and Woke Commissars have "thinking" that makes living them seem impossible, so fuck them.

I didn't see the US Constitution trampled on back in January, so I don't know what you are talking about there, friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Ghostmaker

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Re: Turning the corner on "woke"?
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2021, 04:03:01 PM »
OK, sure, but did everyone forget all the shit that happened in 2020?
Wait.  Sorry I'm confusing this with the "insurrection" of September 2018 when thousands stormed the Capitol in order to disrupt the confirmation hearings of a judge.  Around 1000 were arrested and frog marched out of the Capitol and immediately released.  For some reason they were never prosecuted.  So much for equal treatment under the law.

And what was the estimated damage to the Capitol? In dollars? Oh, right, Zero. And the number I get for numbers arrested is around 200, not around 1000. And at least one guy spent a night in jail. So, given minor nitpicks, sure. So what?
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