This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
NOTICE: Some online security services are reporting that information for a limited number of users from this site is for sale on the "dark web." As of right now, there is no direct evidence of this, but change your password just to be safe.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government  (Read 3985 times)

Mistwell

  • Smarter than Arduin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4133
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2021, 12:34:17 AM »
The thing is you can't really go backward. Returning to the gold standard wouldn't work.

This has to be fixed by getting to the point where you can change the entire concept of currency, and again, technology is the only viable solution to that.
Can't go back to the same peg, but adopting a new gold standard would work fine. Or bitcoin. Anything where government can't just decide to increase the amount of money.

That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.

I am curious what your thoughts are on Bitcoin and other crypto currencies?
People have been using that term for Facebook's Libra/Diem and China's digital Renminbi, and those are just electronic versions of centrally controlled fiat currencies.

Well I am not talking about digital currency, just crypto currency. Which is by definition transactions that are verified and records maintained by a decentralized system using cryptography, rather than by a centralized authority.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47410
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2021, 06:41:53 AM »
That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.

I am curious what your thoughts are on Bitcoin and other crypto currencies?

I think they're an attempt at that very thing. However, it's impossible to say whether that will be the model that ultimately succeeds, or something better comes along.
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

oggsmash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2332
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2021, 08:09:21 AM »
  I have no idea if crypto currency will work in the long term to remove people from central banking, and thus a central control system (government).   I know there are several currencies and programs developing that would allow anyone anywhere to offer investment to anyone they want with no one but the parties involved knowing about it.  I think once a blockchain exists to allow investment into anything any where without some authority knowing about it, and does so easily and reliably (there are lots of ways now to do this, but some blockchains are developing where you simply click and it is done) the hammer will come down on crypto.  Projects like Cardano and solana are going to make a big impact, and will do a great deal to bring banking and investment to people on the ground in developing nations. 

   How much use some things actually get I can not say.  For me, crypto is usually an attempt to follow peoples fee-fees as to what will make me a bit of extra change.  The past 4 years though, and especially the past 2 institutions have become much more involved in holding onto things like bitcoin to store value and they treat it much more like an asset than a fad.   That has created a wave where pocket change can turn into real money.  I have no idea if this is some canary in the coal mine where the big boys see something down the road I can not regarding crashes or inflation, or if they have simply accepted some cryptos as a real and sustainable thing.  I guess time will tell.

  I do know that anyone willing to learn a bit and seeks pattern recognition can make a bit of money from crypto more easily than say a day trader on the stock market due to the massive difference in volatility, and this allows for quite a bit of freedom, and some young people who start with as little as 100 dollars have made situations for themselves where they do not need jobs to handle their financial support of their lifestyles (which tend to be cheaper than older or older married with kids people).  I also wonder what sort of ways this can affect the work force moving forward.   Maybe everyone can not do it, but if a sharp person who might other wise be an accountant/engineer/chemist/software developer decides to trade crypto and just make money in their Pajamas for a couple hours and then goes about their day doing what ever they want instead of a job that likely some portion of the system needs (government, large corporations, etc) I do wonder about the longer term effects of draining brains from some sectors of the economy if more and more of the young people take a look at the cost of college compared to watching a few you tube videos and reading some online text about developing patterns and simply watching and taking part for themselves. 

   That leads me to another thought, the institutions are entering crypto because they always had an idea it would work, but are looking to shore up owning more of the assets to remove a good deal of the volatility from some (reality is bitcoin movement largely controls the entire market to a degree, no matter how hot other projects are or how much good news there is.  Movement on those things is almost always precipitated to some degree by bitcoin - whether it is an increase or a marked transfer from one asset to the other) and maybe remove some of these day and swing trade types who help keep the volatility going and.... for the tastes of some rich and powerful people, are simply making too much money (and money = freedom, and add in you make much more money for each hour engaged and that is the real idea of freedom = more time) and I can not see this going on for that much longer.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 08:11:41 AM by oggsmash »

Trond

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1979
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2021, 09:05:21 AM »
Not an expert in this by any means but here’s my two cents:

There WAS a tendency towards world unification/government, but the trend has shifted. EU lost members or didn’t obtain members that everyone thought would join. Also, although the fall of communism in Russia did lessen international tensions, it didn’t exactly have the unifying effect many expected. Many different cultures basically found that they do not  share the same values after all. The Muslim world was seemingly progressing towards Western values for a while, but then reversed and turned more Islamic conservative. In several countries this process is still ongoing (e.g Bangladesh).

Zelen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2021, 11:57:25 AM »
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.

Yeah, I don't put faith in there ever being an eternal ruling class of benevolent & enlightened people. But a ruling class that isn't full of the worst of the worst is a necessary precondition to making positive reforms. I agree there's no ultimate solution except an educated and principled population, but I do think we can (and should/must) make it harder for tyrants to get their hands on technological and social levers of power.

Pat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 4096
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2021, 12:23:41 PM »
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.

Yeah, I don't put faith in there ever being an eternal ruling class of benevolent & enlightened people. But a ruling class that isn't full of the worst of the worst is a necessary precondition to making positive reforms. I agree there's no ultimate solution except an educated and principled population, but I do think we can (and should/must) make it harder for tyrants to get their hands on technological and social levers of power.
Of course there are problems with a sufficiently informed populace as well. As people become richer and more comfortable, they stop caring as much about freedoms. And as people become dependent on the government for more and more stuff, it becomes harder to muster serious opposition. The populace won't become corrupted as quickly as the leadership, but when it happens, it's equally hard to fight. The only solution I can think of, and the one was successful for more than a century in the US, is to leave people to be responsible for their own lives and the lives of those they care about. The biggest argument in favor of a sparse state isn't selfishness, or the endless failures of central planning, but that it's required for a strong citizenry.

GriswaldTerrastone

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 201
  • BANNED
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2021, 04:24:19 PM »
Scheme.
I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

DocJones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 639
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2021, 06:41:34 PM »
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.
Reminds me of this:
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” - C.S. Lewis

DocJones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 639
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2021, 06:54:48 PM »
That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.
We once thought we could win that fight.
What happens when GoDaddy revokes your domain name amd/or Dreamhost revokes your server and/or your bank revokes your accounts/credit cards because your website isn't woke or is anti-woke?
What happens when ICANN goes international and will no longer certify domain name providers who don't censor?
Does everyone go Darkweb?



Marchand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • M
  • Posts: 257
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2021, 02:16:47 AM »
I don't believe there is a conscious drive towards a world government. Instead what we are seeing is the entrenchment of political power at national level by an elite that regulates entry to itself mainly through educational attainment. The real hardcore went to Ivy League/Oxbridge, and then there is the Outer Party (so to speak) from the next tier universities. And like any halfway-smart elite they will co-opt people from other areas e.g. cultural influencers or successful capitalists. These people are not driving towards a world government for its own sake, but they like to defer power upwards to international institutions because they control them (in personnel terms, i.e. you have to be elite to work in those institutions), and because it reduces the sphere of decision left to democratically-controlled national governments.

Like any social group, the elite achieves consolidation and cohesion by defining itself against what it isn't. What it isn't is the mass of people in its own countries. The people who live outside the M25 and certain university towns in the UK, or outside the wealthy districts of certain US cities.

The elites generally don't want to abolish democracy formally, because the rituals and processes are a useful way of manufacturing consent / invalidating dissent. But clearly you can't just let the great unwashed vote for what they want, because it might undermine your own privileges. So they need to guide democracy and make sure it generates the right results.

They do it in two complementary ways: 1) emphasising their unique expertise in policy 2) reverse-delegating as much power as possible to international institutions that are independent of national governments and electorates, and which are controlled by members of the elite.

This probably explains the intensity of the narrative around incompetent Boris/Trump, efficient Merkel/Adern. Don't get me wrong, Boris and Trump were/are pretty incompetent. But actual results didn't and don't matter. Hardly anyone in the mainstream elite-serving media is seriously saying we should reassess the judgement based on say faster vaccinations in the UK than Germany, or the shitshow of ongoing lockdowns in NZ.

The expertise is often almost entirely bullshit by the way, in case anyone needs told that. In my own professional area of economics there is a sort of collective suspension of disbelief as we pretend to each other we know what we are doing. I have heard very senior people in private admit openly that we do not.

Climate science and policy is so useful for the elite that if it didn't exist, they'd have had to invent it. Requires expertise, check. Shuts down debate, check. Can only be addressed internationally, check. Costs largely borne by people who live outside densely built-up inner cities, check.

Buying into woke social attitudes and policies is a good way to distinguish yourself from the masses as well.

COVID has been an absolute godsend, although to be clear, I don't think that means it was deliberate.

So it might be a subtle difference and it might look kind of similar in the end, but I think on the whole international/global institutions are used to consolidate political, cultural and economic power at the national level, rather than out of a genuine desire to build a Huxleyesque World State, much less an Orwellian one.

In fact, a real world state might not be so good for the elite because there would be no higher level of authority left to delegate up to i.e. away from the people affected by policy.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 02:21:49 AM by Marchand »
"If the English surrender, it'll be a long war!"
- Scottish soldier on the beach at Dunkirk

"Sorry, we don't have the facility to take you all prisoner."
Lt-Col John "Johnny" Frost, responding to German offer to discuss surrender terms, Arnhem, Sept 1944

Shasarak

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3596
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2021, 02:22:42 AM »
Hardly anyone in the mainstream elite-serving media is seriously saying we should reassess the judgement based on say faster vaccinations in the UK than Germany, or the shitshow of ongoing lockdowns in NZ.

I am not here to defend NZ lockdowns but shitshow?  No one is going around shooting dogs here.
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

caldrail

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2021, 11:00:39 PM »
Just my two cents on world government. Whilst communication technology has made it more possible, there is a fundamental tribalism to human beings that extends in some cases right down to family or street level. However much control is imposed on human society, compliance is only satisfactory whilst that control is seen as strong. Any weakness and uniformity suffers. This is because human beings are diverse creatures. It's a natural characteristic derived from our social instincts which keeps the competition level high and our population dynamic. We talk a lot about the power of speech as the reason we became a dominant species, but the truth is our diversity provides a framework for optimum opportunity, thus in theory a society has people in it with the necessary attitudes and skills to survive any given situation.

So could a world government evolve? Potentially, though as one poster has already suggested, that might well mean a domineering empire, and human tribalism would always ensure that elements of society break away.

As an aside, the massive galactic civilisations of scifi? Wonderful story material, but unlikely given human nature. As soon as Humanity reaches another habitable world, diversity would drive change, evolution, mutation, and a need to remain independent in their own territory.

Pat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 4096
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2021, 10:21:27 AM »
Just my two cents on world government. Whilst communication technology has made it more possible, there is a fundamental tribalism to human beings that extends in some cases right down to family or street level. However much control is imposed on human society, compliance is only satisfactory whilst that control is seen as strong. Any weakness and uniformity suffers. This is because human beings are diverse creatures. It's a natural characteristic derived from our social instincts which keeps the competition level high and our population dynamic. We talk a lot about the power of speech as the reason we became a dominant species, but the truth is our diversity provides a framework for optimum opportunity, thus in theory a society has people in it with the necessary attitudes and skills to survive any given situation.

So could a world government evolve? Potentially, though as one poster has already suggested, that might well mean a domineering empire, and human tribalism would always ensure that elements of society break away.
You're assuming it will be possible to break away. But with the panopticon taking form in places like London and Berlin, there will be no place you can meet or join with other like-minded people without being tracked and observed. With the censorship of social media, the warrantless monitoring of your every action on the internet, and the uberstasi watching it all for any trace of misinformation, hate speech, or any other kind of wrongthink, there will be no place left to speak. And with the use of AI to monitor that vast flow of information for patterns, and draw conclusions, even your hidden personal thoughts may be exposed. Combine that with drones and other technologies that allow the mostly automated application of overwhelming and precise force en masse, a tiny handful of elites will be able to indefinitely suppress the teeming masses. Then apply that formula to the whole world at once, and there will be no Outside, no Wild, no place left where humans can be free. How then would separatists movements even form, much less rise up? Unless we can escape this planet first, I fear the inevitable future is a perpetual boot, grinding away the last traces of humanity diversity and thought.

Ghostmaker

  • Chlorine trifluoride
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2712
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2021, 10:40:41 AM »
What one man can code, another can hack. Or vandalize.


caldrail

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2021, 06:31:15 PM »
Quote
I fear the inevitable future is a perpetual boot, grinding away the last traces of humanity diversity and thought.
Certainly a potential future but the reason it won't happen is because there are always enough people in influence with strong principles. This is why democracy is so important and why it has to be defended. The Americans should have learned that lesson recently.

However, even if the worst happens and an extreme over-intrusive government occurs on the world stage, bear in mind that this diversifying nature of Humanity will eventually strike again. Power is an attractive prize. History shows that some individuals will be utterly callous, ruthless, and conniving in order to achieve it, even if they don't deserve or qualify the position. This means that any ultra-powerful government will almost immediately become at the mercy of the very same information gatherers they thrive on.

It's useful to look at East Germany of the Cold War period, where up to one third of the populace were acting as informers with or without consent. Yet people still managed to live their lives. They still managed to escape over or under the famous Berlin Wall, or in one case, simply drive their everyday train past the normal stop and through to western liberty. Or in a hot air balloon.

For every step toward ultimate control a society takes there are going to be people who will ingeniously find ways to get around it. Where is East Germany now? Back in the western sphere. A rebellion couldn't realistically have happened but the regime could not survive without foreign support.