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Author Topic: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government  (Read 3897 times)

jhkim

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Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« on: September 02, 2021, 12:59:37 AM »
Split from the 2300-reply year-and-a-half-long thread on 'Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.'...

This is about the question of moving towards a world government. The topic originally came up from now-banned poster SonTodoGato statement that "the covid scandal was just an excuse for a one-world, totalitarian, socialist government."  He followed that up with a bunch of quotes and images for how various leaders have been planning to impose such a government. Pundit responded specifically about the Kalergi Plan.

But the Kalergi Plan is a 100% fraud, a myth invented 15  years ago by a neo-nazi, which promotes anti-semitic conspiracy theories. It's basically just a rewriting of the equally fraudulent Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which originally started out as an anti-Masonic fraud before being re-written as an anti-Jewish fraud.
]There was a real dude, Ricard Kalergi, who was an early-20th Century promoter of the Pan-european movement (essentially, the movement to create a European Union). He was extremely liberal for his age. He was the son of an Austro-Hungarian Count and a Japanese heiress, which obviously made him quite unusual. He was not Jewish (as many of the Neo-Nazis who push the "Kalergi Plan" conspiracy theory sometimes claim), though he did marry a Jewish actress.
He was a Freemason, but only from 1922 to 1926.

He was deeply horrified by WWI, and inspired by Wilson's ideas of the League of Nations. He wrote several books in the 1920s where he promoted the idea of Pan-Europeanism. He came up with the idea that Beethoven's Ode to Joy should be the "national anthem of Europe", which is really likely his most lasting influence on the modern world.

Though the Neo-Nazis present him as if he was a communist, but in fact in his writings he pleaded the case for a European Union as the only possible protection against Soviet takeover. He was an anti-Communist.  His ideas were very socially progressive but fundamentally conservative, and his closest political ties were to Austrian archconservative parties.

He was moderately well-known in European intellectual circles by the early 1930s. Obviously, Hitler absolutely despised him, once calling Kalergi a "nasty mongrel" and "agent of International Jewry and Freemasonry".

Anyways, Kalergi escaped Europe during WWII, and later returned after the war was over, and was certainly influential in some of the early stages of the creation of what would become the European Union. He died in 1972.

And he was practically forgotten; until 2005, when an Austrian Neo-Nazi named Gerd Honsik, on the run from the law in Spain, published a book called "The Kalergi Plan", in which he combined actual quotes from Kalergi's own books about pan-europeanism with material written by the Nazis in the 1930s and 40s and with parts taken right out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, to formulate the claim that Kalergi was the mastermind of an organized conspiracy with a big mix of political and intellectual leaders to institute a long-term project to exterminate the "white race" by a mix of socialism and mass-immigration to produce a servile society that would be ruled in authoritarian fashion by a "Judeo-Masonic Elite".

It was total bullshit of course, there was no such plan, but it touched on all kinds of narratives of modern Neo-Nazism and made the perfect storm for a less besmirched replacement for the Protocols.  Pretty much everyone knows that the Protocols are bullshit now, but you could still try to fools some people with legitimate concerns about things like immigration or socialism into thinking the Kalergi Plan was real.

So there wasn't a secret plan for world government. Instead, there are a lot of people who ideologically favor broader cooperation worldwide such as the UN or EU. I think there is a reasonable claim that things like the United Nations and the European Union are steps towards a world government, but they're not part of a secret plan to impose a totalitarian state. They were openly pursued for their own sakes. For actual vision of a world government, SonTodoGao cited H.G. Wells, but I pointed out that plenty of more conservative science fiction like Buck Rogers and Starship Troopers also imagined a world government - one that was founded on conservative principles. As far as the general trend of history, I find that both modern liberals and conservatives tend to go on about how the world is turning horrible -- i.e. "just look at the headlines, everything is going to shit!" So many imagine a dystopian society of the future - but some instead have a more positive picture. While there are some negative trends in history, there are also positive trends - both worldwide and within individual countries. Both liberal and conservative thinkers have imagined that humanity might progress positively towards a world government.

Phrased as a question then, are we moving towards a world government, and if so, what is driving it?

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2021, 11:24:34 AM »
To be fair, in Kalergi's writings he did clearly dream of an eventual worldwide government, divided into zones for each continent.

He just didn't have any kind of secret (or public) step-by-step plan for how it would come about. He just presumed it eventually would, and Pan-europeanism would be one of its early stages.
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oggsmash

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2021, 01:21:25 PM »
 A World government can really only exist as an empire would.  Where lots of people with completely different values and outlooks on life are "together" as one government.  The problem with empires is, they all fall, and usually in a catastrophic fashion. 

  I do feel we are moving towards one world government, but I do not think there is some grand plan.  I think the real powers in the world, massive multinational corporations just want a bigger bottom line.  The more people they can sell to the more they make.  So they are going to push, at every turn to get the cheapest labor, sell to the highest earners, and go through one set of red tape, and make as many regulations behind them to kill competition. 

   I also think lots of big brains get too far removed from regular old people and forget that there is a breaking point as to what people will take (taxes to pay for someone else to be taken care of, wars that never end to "make the world safer", saying we are all safer if no one has a gun, whatever.) that pushes on their worldview.  Too big an umbrella IMO gets people who do not like one another too close together. 

   The MAIN reason I think there is no real, ONE plan to move to world government, despite there being plenty of people who are all for the idea, is ego clashing.   The same sort of people who feel they can come up with the best way to have everyone live their lives, have MASSIVE egos.  They are not going to compromise or work all that well with other massive egos.  So I have some doubts there is anytime in the near future, any sort of effective plan to create a real world government.

oggsmash

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2021, 01:23:44 PM »
  Not that lack of an effective plan will stop the same dipshits from trying things, that are probably going to be afghanistan type disasters.

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2021, 01:58:00 PM »
A World government can really only exist as an empire would.  Where lots of people with completely different values and outlooks on life are "together" as one government.  The problem with empires is, they all fall, and usually in a catastrophic fashion. 

  I do feel we are moving towards one world government, but I do not think there is some grand plan.  I think the real powers in the world, massive multinational corporations just want a bigger bottom line.  The more people they can sell to the more they make.  So they are going to push, at every turn to get the cheapest labor, sell to the highest earners, and go through one set of red tape, and make as many regulations behind them to kill competition. 

   I also think lots of big brains get too far removed from regular old people and forget that there is a breaking point as to what people will take (taxes to pay for someone else to be taken care of, wars that never end to "make the world safer", saying we are all safer if no one has a gun, whatever.) that pushes on their worldview.  Too big an umbrella IMO gets people who do not like one another too close together. 

   The MAIN reason I think there is no real, ONE plan to move to world government, despite there being plenty of people who are all for the idea, is ego clashing.   The same sort of people who feel they can come up with the best way to have everyone live their lives, have MASSIVE egos.  They are not going to compromise or work all that well with other massive egos.  So I have some doubts there is anytime in the near future, any sort of effective plan to create a real world government.

Since we're speculating, let's assume there is other intelligent life in the universe. And assume that some multiple groups of intelligent life have come together to work under a unified alliance of some sort. And they find us or otherwise make contact, and given the nature of the universes politics or economics in our corner of the galaxy it would be highly beneficial to earth that we join. But, membership requires we have a world government.

That, I think, is a scenario which can lead to a world government not involving an empire.

oggsmash

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2021, 02:03:04 PM »
A World government can really only exist as an empire would.  Where lots of people with completely different values and outlooks on life are "together" as one government.  The problem with empires is, they all fall, and usually in a catastrophic fashion. 

  I do feel we are moving towards one world government, but I do not think there is some grand plan.  I think the real powers in the world, massive multinational corporations just want a bigger bottom line.  The more people they can sell to the more they make.  So they are going to push, at every turn to get the cheapest labor, sell to the highest earners, and go through one set of red tape, and make as many regulations behind them to kill competition. 

   I also think lots of big brains get too far removed from regular old people and forget that there is a breaking point as to what people will take (taxes to pay for someone else to be taken care of, wars that never end to "make the world safer", saying we are all safer if no one has a gun, whatever.) that pushes on their worldview.  Too big an umbrella IMO gets people who do not like one another too close together. 

   The MAIN reason I think there is no real, ONE plan to move to world government, despite there being plenty of people who are all for the idea, is ego clashing.   The same sort of people who feel they can come up with the best way to have everyone live their lives, have MASSIVE egos.  They are not going to compromise or work all that well with other massive egos.  So I have some doubts there is anytime in the near future, any sort of effective plan to create a real world government.

Since we're speculating, let's assume there is other intelligent life in the universe. And assume that some multiple groups of intelligent life have come together to work under a unified alliance of some sort. And they find us or otherwise make contact, and given the nature of the universes politics or economics in our corner of the galaxy it would be highly beneficial to earth that we join. But, membership requires we have a world government.

That, I think, is a scenario which can lead to a world government not involving an empire.

   It would still be an empire.  Earth would just be afghanistan.  The aliens would install a puppet government with puppet leaders and show all the other aliens how they modernized an entire planet.  What would happen after that is anyone's guess. 

oggsmash

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2021, 02:13:13 PM »
  I think an alien attack would do more to develop a world government than aliens coming in to talk diplomacy.  But they would have to be completely ruthless and wanting death, otherwise there would be humans who would sell other humans right up the river.   People ignore differences MUCH more easily in major crisis, Disasters, wars, so forth, so long as they are in the crisis together.    I guess if the Aliens brought the promise of some sort of VR wear that would allow people to live out VR fantasies that belong in the movie Idiocracy there might be a peaceful compliance with formation of a world government.    But I think we need different humans to allow for a one world government.  The ones on the planet now, are not going to go along with that, no matter how many billionaires or career politicians tell them it is a good idea.

Pat

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2021, 03:06:22 PM »
A bit stream of consciousness, and not at all comprehensive:

Name a bureaucratic organization that decided it accomplished its mission, closed up shop, and vanished. Can't think of one? That's because over the entire course of history, there are only tiny handful of examples. Contrary to these extreme outliers, most bureaucracies keep growing until forcibly uprooted. This is because they have every incentive to grow. The larger they become, the more power the bureaucrats exercise, and the more secure their jobs become. If they fail, they're almost never fired. If the organization fails, it's almost never dissolved. Instead, failure is generally an excuse to say they were underfunded, and demand more money. That's completely counter to how the private sector works, and rewards incompetence. And since there are no universal measures of success or failure, like profits and losses in a private company, everything is subjective and therefore almost any failure can be justified or excused.

The bureaucrats' lives are also focused on the organization, while their checks and balances, like public opinion, tend to be intermittent and relatively uninformed. As a result, there's an incredibly heavy bias in favor of the bureaucrat's excuses and rationales, when that even becomes an issue. Because most of the time, they just go about their business in relative obscurity, with no checks. This is a more generalized form of the concept known as regulatory capture.

Another reason is the nature of states. Larger states beat smaller states, so out of self-preservation states tend to grow until they reach the limits of effective governance. This has increased over time, as methods of communication and projecting force have improved, though it's not always a straight arrow upwards (Roman roads and organization were more effective than anything until the late medieval period.) But massive modern states are the result of sophisticated infrastructure.

A corollary is that sophisticated infrastructure allows a central state to exert not just power over distance, but to usurp more and more tasks that used to be handled locally. When there were no phones and Washington DC was many days ride away, governors had to make most decisions on their own. The same is also true with governors and mayors. The decline of states in favor of federal governments, and local governments in favor of state governments, has been accelerated due to airplanes, phones, and computers.

Rulers are also individually incentivized to grow their territory, because prior to the widespread adoption of capitalism, nations didn't get wealthier over time. The most practical way for most rulers to increase their wealth was to increase their territory, so they ended up with more peasants producing more crops. This was done by war, but also by marriage. This is why primogeniture and marriage within the same extended family were so important, because they maintained or increased their holdings. (Look at the Hapsburgs for a good example.)

This consolidation is a historical fact -- in the 19th century, there were more independent states within the current boundaries of Germany (300+) than there are in the entire world, today (less than 200). And while nation-state borders have been relatively stable since WW2 (with a few major exceptions like the collapse of the Soviet Union), the era since has seen the rise of global organizations that have taken over some state responsibilities (the WTO, World Bank, maritime treaties, etc.) and regional blocs like the EU or even NAFTA/whatever it's been renamed. So even where the borders remain static, the tendency toward consolidation continues.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 04:09:10 PM by Pat »

RandyB

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2021, 09:20:30 PM »
A World government can really only exist as an empire would.  Where lots of people with completely different values and outlooks on life are "together" as one government.  The problem with empires is, they all fall, and usually in a catastrophic fashion. 

  I do feel we are moving towards one world government, but I do not think there is some grand plan.  I think the real powers in the world, massive multinational corporations just want a bigger bottom line.  The more people they can sell to the more they make.  So they are going to push, at every turn to get the cheapest labor, sell to the highest earners, and go through one set of red tape, and make as many regulations behind them to kill competition. 

   I also think lots of big brains get too far removed from regular old people and forget that there is a breaking point as to what people will take (taxes to pay for someone else to be taken care of, wars that never end to "make the world safer", saying we are all safer if no one has a gun, whatever.) that pushes on their worldview.  Too big an umbrella IMO gets people who do not like one another too close together. 

   The MAIN reason I think there is no real, ONE plan to move to world government, despite there being plenty of people who are all for the idea, is ego clashing.   The same sort of people who feel they can come up with the best way to have everyone live their lives, have MASSIVE egos.  They are not going to compromise or work all that well with other massive egos.  So I have some doubts there is anytime in the near future, any sort of effective plan to create a real world government.

Since we're speculating, let's assume there is other intelligent life in the universe. And assume that some multiple groups of intelligent life have come together to work under a unified alliance of some sort. And they find us or otherwise make contact, and given the nature of the universes politics or economics in our corner of the galaxy it would be highly beneficial to earth that we join. But, membership requires we have a world government.

That, I think, is a scenario which can lead to a world government not involving an empire.

   It would still be an empire.  Earth would just be afghanistan.  The aliens would install a puppet government with puppet leaders and show all the other aliens how they modernized an entire planet.  What would happen after that is anyone's guess. 

Empire is a feature, not a bug. Nothing concentrates wealth and power quite so thoroughly as an empire, be it political, mercantile, or criminal.

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2021, 09:31:38 PM »
There is an amazing documentary about the topic of the Technocratic globalist government dreams of the political class in the 20th century and how it went horribly wrong. It's called All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace. I strongly recommend it.

There was never a conspiracy. It was just people openly wanting a dream of  a one world government run by "experts" using "science" and "technology" (especially computers) and "policy" to create a society run like a machine in perfect harmony.

They thought they could control the environment, people, political movements, the economy, and basically everything. But only because they assumed nature was like a machine.
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Zelen

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2021, 01:22:27 AM »
The direction of technological advancement is towards empowering humans to do things they weren't able to do before. The intersection of technology & human nature is always going to be some sociopaths using the leverage of technology to expand their influence & centralize power. What we're seeing now isn't new in any sense except that it's a particularly stupid and evil group of people who literally have a lever that can move the world.

The problem here is twofold. First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals. Second, important technological services need to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up to be outside of the control of centralized authority.

I don't think either are likely to happen, but fingers crossed.

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2021, 01:39:37 AM »
On the other hand, I have hope that we will eventually develop sufficiently advanced technology to kill the need for government or bureaucrats.
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Pat

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2021, 02:30:14 AM »
On the other hand, I have hope that we will eventually develop sufficiently advanced technology to kill the need for government or bureaucrats.
I fear the opposite. That the ascendance of surveillance technology into nearly omnipotent cradle to grave panoptical analysis, and the continued automation of the ability to kill remotely at the press of a button, will lead to a world government that will inevitably grow ever more authoritarian, yet will be impossible to ever overthrow. Even if that state endures for millennia or megaanna, all our future potential will be forever trapped under the boot. That would be the truth death of humanity, the end of all hope.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 10:57:49 AM by Pat »

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2021, 02:38:35 AM »
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 02:41:22 AM by Pat »

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2021, 06:16:29 AM »
Pat and Pundit have me thinking about '2112', an album by Rush; particularly 'The Temple of Syrinx' and 'The Wizard of Oz'.  Behind any supertech maybe someone beyond most people, but a person nonetheless.