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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: jhkim on September 02, 2021, 12:59:37 AM

Title: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: jhkim on September 02, 2021, 12:59:37 AM
Split from the 2300-reply year-and-a-half-long thread on 'Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.' (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/covid-the-lockdowns-etc/)...

This is about the question of moving towards a world government. The topic originally came up from now-banned poster SonTodoGato statement that "the covid scandal was just an excuse for a one-world, totalitarian, socialist government."  He followed that up with a bunch of quotes and images for how various leaders have been planning to impose such a government. Pundit responded specifically about the Kalergi Plan.

But the Kalergi Plan is a 100% fraud, a myth invented 15  years ago by a neo-nazi, which promotes anti-semitic conspiracy theories. It's basically just a rewriting of the equally fraudulent Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which originally started out as an anti-Masonic fraud before being re-written as an anti-Jewish fraud.
]There was a real dude, Ricard Kalergi, who was an early-20th Century promoter of the Pan-european movement (essentially, the movement to create a European Union). He was extremely liberal for his age. He was the son of an Austro-Hungarian Count and a Japanese heiress, which obviously made him quite unusual. He was not Jewish (as many of the Neo-Nazis who push the "Kalergi Plan" conspiracy theory sometimes claim), though he did marry a Jewish actress.
He was a Freemason, but only from 1922 to 1926.

He was deeply horrified by WWI, and inspired by Wilson's ideas of the League of Nations. He wrote several books in the 1920s where he promoted the idea of Pan-Europeanism. He came up with the idea that Beethoven's Ode to Joy should be the "national anthem of Europe", which is really likely his most lasting influence on the modern world.

Though the Neo-Nazis present him as if he was a communist, but in fact in his writings he pleaded the case for a European Union as the only possible protection against Soviet takeover. He was an anti-Communist.  His ideas were very socially progressive but fundamentally conservative, and his closest political ties were to Austrian archconservative parties.

He was moderately well-known in European intellectual circles by the early 1930s. Obviously, Hitler absolutely despised him, once calling Kalergi a "nasty mongrel" and "agent of International Jewry and Freemasonry".

Anyways, Kalergi escaped Europe during WWII, and later returned after the war was over, and was certainly influential in some of the early stages of the creation of what would become the European Union. He died in 1972.

And he was practically forgotten; until 2005, when an Austrian Neo-Nazi named Gerd Honsik, on the run from the law in Spain, published a book called "The Kalergi Plan", in which he combined actual quotes from Kalergi's own books about pan-europeanism with material written by the Nazis in the 1930s and 40s and with parts taken right out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, to formulate the claim that Kalergi was the mastermind of an organized conspiracy with a big mix of political and intellectual leaders to institute a long-term project to exterminate the "white race" by a mix of socialism and mass-immigration to produce a servile society that would be ruled in authoritarian fashion by a "Judeo-Masonic Elite".

It was total bullshit of course, there was no such plan, but it touched on all kinds of narratives of modern Neo-Nazism and made the perfect storm for a less besmirched replacement for the Protocols.  Pretty much everyone knows that the Protocols are bullshit now, but you could still try to fools some people with legitimate concerns about things like immigration or socialism into thinking the Kalergi Plan was real.

So there wasn't a secret plan for world government. Instead, there are a lot of people who ideologically favor broader cooperation worldwide such as the UN or EU. I think there is a reasonable claim that things like the United Nations and the European Union are steps towards a world government, but they're not part of a secret plan to impose a totalitarian state. They were openly pursued for their own sakes. For actual vision of a world government, SonTodoGao cited H.G. Wells, but I pointed out that plenty of more conservative science fiction like Buck Rogers and Starship Troopers also imagined a world government - one that was founded on conservative principles. As far as the general trend of history, I find that both modern liberals and conservatives tend to go on about how the world is turning horrible -- i.e. "just look at the headlines, everything is going to shit!" So many imagine a dystopian society of the future - but some instead have a more positive picture. While there are some negative trends in history, there are also positive trends - both worldwide and within individual countries. Both liberal and conservative thinkers have imagined that humanity might progress positively towards a world government.

Phrased as a question then, are we moving towards a world government, and if so, what is driving it?
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: RPGPundit on September 02, 2021, 11:24:34 AM
To be fair, in Kalergi's writings he did clearly dream of an eventual worldwide government, divided into zones for each continent.

He just didn't have any kind of secret (or public) step-by-step plan for how it would come about. He just presumed it eventually would, and Pan-europeanism would be one of its early stages.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: oggsmash on September 02, 2021, 01:21:25 PM
 A World government can really only exist as an empire would.  Where lots of people with completely different values and outlooks on life are "together" as one government.  The problem with empires is, they all fall, and usually in a catastrophic fashion. 

  I do feel we are moving towards one world government, but I do not think there is some grand plan.  I think the real powers in the world, massive multinational corporations just want a bigger bottom line.  The more people they can sell to the more they make.  So they are going to push, at every turn to get the cheapest labor, sell to the highest earners, and go through one set of red tape, and make as many regulations behind them to kill competition. 

   I also think lots of big brains get too far removed from regular old people and forget that there is a breaking point as to what people will take (taxes to pay for someone else to be taken care of, wars that never end to "make the world safer", saying we are all safer if no one has a gun, whatever.) that pushes on their worldview.  Too big an umbrella IMO gets people who do not like one another too close together. 

   The MAIN reason I think there is no real, ONE plan to move to world government, despite there being plenty of people who are all for the idea, is ego clashing.   The same sort of people who feel they can come up with the best way to have everyone live their lives, have MASSIVE egos.  They are not going to compromise or work all that well with other massive egos.  So I have some doubts there is anytime in the near future, any sort of effective plan to create a real world government.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: oggsmash on September 02, 2021, 01:23:44 PM
  Not that lack of an effective plan will stop the same dipshits from trying things, that are probably going to be afghanistan type disasters.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Mistwell on September 02, 2021, 01:58:00 PM
A World government can really only exist as an empire would.  Where lots of people with completely different values and outlooks on life are "together" as one government.  The problem with empires is, they all fall, and usually in a catastrophic fashion. 

  I do feel we are moving towards one world government, but I do not think there is some grand plan.  I think the real powers in the world, massive multinational corporations just want a bigger bottom line.  The more people they can sell to the more they make.  So they are going to push, at every turn to get the cheapest labor, sell to the highest earners, and go through one set of red tape, and make as many regulations behind them to kill competition. 

   I also think lots of big brains get too far removed from regular old people and forget that there is a breaking point as to what people will take (taxes to pay for someone else to be taken care of, wars that never end to "make the world safer", saying we are all safer if no one has a gun, whatever.) that pushes on their worldview.  Too big an umbrella IMO gets people who do not like one another too close together. 

   The MAIN reason I think there is no real, ONE plan to move to world government, despite there being plenty of people who are all for the idea, is ego clashing.   The same sort of people who feel they can come up with the best way to have everyone live their lives, have MASSIVE egos.  They are not going to compromise or work all that well with other massive egos.  So I have some doubts there is anytime in the near future, any sort of effective plan to create a real world government.

Since we're speculating, let's assume there is other intelligent life in the universe. And assume that some multiple groups of intelligent life have come together to work under a unified alliance of some sort. And they find us or otherwise make contact, and given the nature of the universes politics or economics in our corner of the galaxy it would be highly beneficial to earth that we join. But, membership requires we have a world government.

That, I think, is a scenario which can lead to a world government not involving an empire.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: oggsmash on September 02, 2021, 02:03:04 PM
A World government can really only exist as an empire would.  Where lots of people with completely different values and outlooks on life are "together" as one government.  The problem with empires is, they all fall, and usually in a catastrophic fashion. 

  I do feel we are moving towards one world government, but I do not think there is some grand plan.  I think the real powers in the world, massive multinational corporations just want a bigger bottom line.  The more people they can sell to the more they make.  So they are going to push, at every turn to get the cheapest labor, sell to the highest earners, and go through one set of red tape, and make as many regulations behind them to kill competition. 

   I also think lots of big brains get too far removed from regular old people and forget that there is a breaking point as to what people will take (taxes to pay for someone else to be taken care of, wars that never end to "make the world safer", saying we are all safer if no one has a gun, whatever.) that pushes on their worldview.  Too big an umbrella IMO gets people who do not like one another too close together. 

   The MAIN reason I think there is no real, ONE plan to move to world government, despite there being plenty of people who are all for the idea, is ego clashing.   The same sort of people who feel they can come up with the best way to have everyone live their lives, have MASSIVE egos.  They are not going to compromise or work all that well with other massive egos.  So I have some doubts there is anytime in the near future, any sort of effective plan to create a real world government.

Since we're speculating, let's assume there is other intelligent life in the universe. And assume that some multiple groups of intelligent life have come together to work under a unified alliance of some sort. And they find us or otherwise make contact, and given the nature of the universes politics or economics in our corner of the galaxy it would be highly beneficial to earth that we join. But, membership requires we have a world government.

That, I think, is a scenario which can lead to a world government not involving an empire.

   It would still be an empire.  Earth would just be afghanistan.  The aliens would install a puppet government with puppet leaders and show all the other aliens how they modernized an entire planet.  What would happen after that is anyone's guess. 
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: oggsmash on September 02, 2021, 02:13:13 PM
  I think an alien attack would do more to develop a world government than aliens coming in to talk diplomacy.  But they would have to be completely ruthless and wanting death, otherwise there would be humans who would sell other humans right up the river.   People ignore differences MUCH more easily in major crisis, Disasters, wars, so forth, so long as they are in the crisis together.    I guess if the Aliens brought the promise of some sort of VR wear that would allow people to live out VR fantasies that belong in the movie Idiocracy there might be a peaceful compliance with formation of a world government.    But I think we need different humans to allow for a one world government.  The ones on the planet now, are not going to go along with that, no matter how many billionaires or career politicians tell them it is a good idea.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on September 02, 2021, 03:06:22 PM
A bit stream of consciousness, and not at all comprehensive:

Name a bureaucratic organization that decided it accomplished its mission, closed up shop, and vanished. Can't think of one? That's because over the entire course of history, there are only tiny handful of examples. Contrary to these extreme outliers, most bureaucracies keep growing until forcibly uprooted. This is because they have every incentive to grow. The larger they become, the more power the bureaucrats exercise, and the more secure their jobs become. If they fail, they're almost never fired. If the organization fails, it's almost never dissolved. Instead, failure is generally an excuse to say they were underfunded, and demand more money. That's completely counter to how the private sector works, and rewards incompetence. And since there are no universal measures of success or failure, like profits and losses in a private company, everything is subjective and therefore almost any failure can be justified or excused.

The bureaucrats' lives are also focused on the organization, while their checks and balances, like public opinion, tend to be intermittent and relatively uninformed. As a result, there's an incredibly heavy bias in favor of the bureaucrat's excuses and rationales, when that even becomes an issue. Because most of the time, they just go about their business in relative obscurity, with no checks. This is a more generalized form of the concept known as regulatory capture.

Another reason is the nature of states. Larger states beat smaller states, so out of self-preservation states tend to grow until they reach the limits of effective governance. This has increased over time, as methods of communication and projecting force have improved, though it's not always a straight arrow upwards (Roman roads and organization were more effective than anything until the late medieval period.) But massive modern states are the result of sophisticated infrastructure.

A corollary is that sophisticated infrastructure allows a central state to exert not just power over distance, but to usurp more and more tasks that used to be handled locally. When there were no phones and Washington DC was many days ride away, governors had to make most decisions on their own. The same is also true with governors and mayors. The decline of states in favor of federal governments, and local governments in favor of state governments, has been accelerated due to airplanes, phones, and computers.

Rulers are also individually incentivized to grow their territory, because prior to the widespread adoption of capitalism, nations didn't get wealthier over time. The most practical way for most rulers to increase their wealth was to increase their territory, so they ended up with more peasants producing more crops. This was done by war, but also by marriage. This is why primogeniture and marriage within the same extended family were so important, because they maintained or increased their holdings. (Look at the Hapsburgs for a good example.)

This consolidation is a historical fact -- in the 19th century, there were more independent states within the current boundaries of Germany (300+) than there are in the entire world, today (less than 200). And while nation-state borders have been relatively stable since WW2 (with a few major exceptions like the collapse of the Soviet Union), the era since has seen the rise of global organizations that have taken over some state responsibilities (the WTO, World Bank, maritime treaties, etc.) and regional blocs like the EU or even NAFTA/whatever it's been renamed. So even where the borders remain static, the tendency toward consolidation continues.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: RandyB on September 02, 2021, 09:20:30 PM
A World government can really only exist as an empire would.  Where lots of people with completely different values and outlooks on life are "together" as one government.  The problem with empires is, they all fall, and usually in a catastrophic fashion. 

  I do feel we are moving towards one world government, but I do not think there is some grand plan.  I think the real powers in the world, massive multinational corporations just want a bigger bottom line.  The more people they can sell to the more they make.  So they are going to push, at every turn to get the cheapest labor, sell to the highest earners, and go through one set of red tape, and make as many regulations behind them to kill competition. 

   I also think lots of big brains get too far removed from regular old people and forget that there is a breaking point as to what people will take (taxes to pay for someone else to be taken care of, wars that never end to "make the world safer", saying we are all safer if no one has a gun, whatever.) that pushes on their worldview.  Too big an umbrella IMO gets people who do not like one another too close together. 

   The MAIN reason I think there is no real, ONE plan to move to world government, despite there being plenty of people who are all for the idea, is ego clashing.   The same sort of people who feel they can come up with the best way to have everyone live their lives, have MASSIVE egos.  They are not going to compromise or work all that well with other massive egos.  So I have some doubts there is anytime in the near future, any sort of effective plan to create a real world government.

Since we're speculating, let's assume there is other intelligent life in the universe. And assume that some multiple groups of intelligent life have come together to work under a unified alliance of some sort. And they find us or otherwise make contact, and given the nature of the universes politics or economics in our corner of the galaxy it would be highly beneficial to earth that we join. But, membership requires we have a world government.

That, I think, is a scenario which can lead to a world government not involving an empire.

   It would still be an empire.  Earth would just be afghanistan.  The aliens would install a puppet government with puppet leaders and show all the other aliens how they modernized an entire planet.  What would happen after that is anyone's guess. 

Empire is a feature, not a bug. Nothing concentrates wealth and power quite so thoroughly as an empire, be it political, mercantile, or criminal.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: RPGPundit on September 02, 2021, 09:31:38 PM
There is an amazing documentary about the topic of the Technocratic globalist government dreams of the political class in the 20th century and how it went horribly wrong. It's called All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace. I strongly recommend it.

There was never a conspiracy. It was just people openly wanting a dream of  a one world government run by "experts" using "science" and "technology" (especially computers) and "policy" to create a society run like a machine in perfect harmony.

They thought they could control the environment, people, political movements, the economy, and basically everything. But only because they assumed nature was like a machine.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Zelen on September 03, 2021, 01:22:27 AM
The direction of technological advancement is towards empowering humans to do things they weren't able to do before. The intersection of technology & human nature is always going to be some sociopaths using the leverage of technology to expand their influence & centralize power. What we're seeing now isn't new in any sense except that it's a particularly stupid and evil group of people who literally have a lever that can move the world.

The problem here is twofold. First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals. Second, important technological services need to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up to be outside of the control of centralized authority.

I don't think either are likely to happen, but fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 01:39:37 AM
On the other hand, I have hope that we will eventually develop sufficiently advanced technology to kill the need for government or bureaucrats.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on September 03, 2021, 02:30:14 AM
On the other hand, I have hope that we will eventually develop sufficiently advanced technology to kill the need for government or bureaucrats.
I fear the opposite. That the ascendance of surveillance technology into nearly omnipotent cradle to grave panoptical analysis, and the continued automation of the ability to kill remotely at the press of a button, will lead to a world government that will inevitably grow ever more authoritarian, yet will be impossible to ever overthrow. Even if that state endures for millennia or megaanna, all our future potential will be forever trapped under the boot. That would be the truth death of humanity, the end of all hope.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on September 03, 2021, 02:38:35 AM
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Prairie Dragon on September 03, 2021, 06:16:29 AM
Pat and Pundit have me thinking about '2112', an album by Rush; particularly 'The Temple of Syrinx' and 'The Wizard of Oz'.  Behind any supertech maybe someone beyond most people, but a person nonetheless.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: HappyDaze on September 03, 2021, 07:19:01 AM
On the other hand, I have hope that we will eventually develop sufficiently advanced technology to kill the need for government or bureaucrats.
That sufficiently advanced technology would be magic, right? If fantasy becomes reality, evil wizards are as likely as benevolent ones, and if it's an evil space wizard, we get Palpatine. Then we get hyperspace skipping and the borders go away entirely.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: oggsmash on September 03, 2021, 08:40:10 AM
On the other hand, I have hope that we will eventually develop sufficiently advanced technology to kill the need for government or bureaucrats.
That sufficiently advanced technology would be magic, right? If fantasy becomes reality, evil wizards are as likely as benevolent ones, and if it's an evil space wizard, we get Palpatine. Then we get hyperspace skipping and the borders go away entirely.

  I would also suggest that it does seem like some of the worst sorts of people are drawn to power.  Give those sorts of people the level of power where such things are possible, no way in hell they let everyone have access to such things...because someone has to be in charge, right?
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: RandyB on September 03, 2021, 08:43:55 AM
There is an amazing documentary about the topic of the Technocratic globalist government dreams of the political class in the 20th century and how it went horribly wrong. It's called All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace. I strongly recommend it.

There was never a conspiracy. It was just people openly wanting a dream of  a one world government run by "experts" using "science" and "technology" (especially computers) and "policy" to create a society run like a machine in perfect harmony.

They thought they could control the environment, people, political movements, the economy, and basically everything. But only because they assumed nature was like a machine.

The "scientific and technological elite" named in Eisenhower's Farewell Address alongside the more famous military-industrial complex.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: oggsmash on September 03, 2021, 08:51:03 AM
  In some ways I think technology was beginning to allow for a decentralization of power.  The internet allows for a great deal of sharing of ideas (some good, some horrible) and discussion.  It allows for any person with a phone to share what is global news with video footage, removing the Massive corporations from constant control of narratives.  It allows people to do their jobs from their homes, allowing more time to think, be around people they love, to do what they want (transit times are probably more soul sucking than most jobs).  It allows digital nomads to both live where their lifestyle is the cheapest and leverage large salaries for the skills they have.   It allows people to make over a thousand dollars a day swapping out crypto currency and having to answer to no "boss".  It allows some woman in utah to become very wealthy writing ebooks sold on amazon about love affairs with bigfoot. 

    I personally think right now, in many ways there is a little too much freedom flying around for the sensibilities of powerful people.   A workforce that is tied to debt, and usually also experienced divorce (family splits ensure two households, two sets of debt, and often two workers) is the best thing for many corporations that need employees and really, really need consumers to buy things they do not need with debt to feel better about their lives.   

   The future extrapolated out along a "freedom curve" leaves waaay too much time for people to reflect as to what their government/trusted officials are actually doing.  Just an extra hour or two a day from removing a drive into and from work is A LOT of time.  Time, is the most important resource any person will ever have, because it is definitely the one resource that once wasted can never be replaced.    I do not see the future following a "freedom curve".  I think there is going to be a whole lot of world wide clamping down on internet access, the ability for the common man to take an active interest in his own investments, and some way to get more things into people's lives that burn time and prevent too much reading/thinking.  In some ways I guess enough freedom could take care of this, if enough people use their time to play games, watch stupid tv shows, etc.   
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 10:12:32 AM
That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on September 03, 2021, 06:26:59 PM
It's also important to fix the world's financial system.

1971 was a magic year. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm) Fifty years ago, Nixon took the final step in unpegging the dollar from gold (FDR started it, in 1933), and allowed it float freely. The immediate result was predictable, and awful -- a decade of stagflation, where a mix of high unemployment and high inflation destroyed jobs, ruined savings, and caused rationing and gas lines.

The longer term effects were worse. With money no longer backed by anything substantial, governments were free to print as much money as much as they thought they could get away with. If the government increases the amount of money by 5%, they get to keep that 5%, and it's paid for by a rise in prices. This is a hidden tax that nobody voted for, but it's worse than most taxes because it doesn't just affect your income or spending, it also affects all the money you have saved. Your bank account becomes worth 5% less. This hurts everyone, but it hurts the retired and other people on fixed incomes most of all.

How much has the government stolen by inflation? Between 1934 and 1971, gold was $35 an ounce. That wasn't a price, it was the definition. Central banks around the world could take a dollar to the US Treasury, and get a specific quantity of gold. Today, gold is $1,827.46 an ounce. The difference between the two amounts is how much the federal government has stolen, gradually, over 50 years. They've robbed us of 98% of the value of the dollar, and left the public with only 2%.

This is even worse than it seems because of the Cantillion effect. Inflation doesn't happen all at once. If the government increases the amount of money by 5%, that doesn't mean the stock market jumps 5%, your grocery bill rises 5%, your car payment goes up by 5%, and your wages are automatically increased by 5%, in one fell swoop. No, the price increases spread in ripples throughout the economy. It starts in the financial sector, because they're the first ones to get the new dollars. Then it goes into the capital sector (industry and the stock market), as the financial institutions lend out the new money. It's only as new products get manufactured and prices pass down the supply chain that consumer prices go up. Among the last prices to rise are wages.

The people who get the money first (financiers and companies) get a great deal, because they can spend the money before prices rise, and pocket the difference. Conversely, the people who get the money last (you and I) get shafted, because by the time the money reaches us prices have already risen everywhere else. That means we don't get a cut. The result of this is inflation is like a huge spigot, that continually drains money from the pool of normal people into the reservoirs of the the rich and privileged.

You're probably tired of hearing this now, but it's even worse than that. I'm not going to go into details here, but inflation is also the reason why the stock market keeps crashing. It's why people have stopped saving. And there are a whole complex of reasons why it's relevant to the thread. It's why government debt has gone through the roof. It's allowed vast government spending, one things like wars and social programs. And most topically, it's one of the key reasons why governments have grown so much, and why governments like the US are pushing for more worldwide coordination and enforceable inter-governmental standards (global minimum income tax anyone?) to keep the gravy train flowing.

And even that's barely the start of the bad things. 1971, the year when the dollar became completely based on fiat, is an inflection point when nearly everything bad you can imagine about the economy and the government got much worse. This is what happens when the government is no longer held financially accountable.

Many graphs of bad things that started to go bad much more quickly in the unfortunate year of 1971:
https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Shasarak on September 03, 2021, 06:52:48 PM
Fiat money is so good at causing stock market crashes that it even causes stock market crashes when there is no fiat money.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on September 03, 2021, 07:23:05 PM
You're confusing inflation and fiat money.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Shasarak on September 03, 2021, 07:33:49 PM
Yeah, I am confusing it.

(https://fifthperson.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/US-stock-market-crashes.png)
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Willmark on September 03, 2021, 07:59:15 PM
On the other hand, I have hope that we will eventually develop sufficiently advanced technology to kill the need for government or bureaucrats.
That sufficiently advanced technology would be magic, right? If fantasy becomes reality, evil wizards are as likely as benevolent ones, and if it's an evil space wizard, we get Palpatine. Then we get hyperspace skipping and the borders go away entirely.

  I would also suggest that it does seem like some of the worst sorts of people are drawn to power.  Give those sorts of people the level of power where such things are possible, no way in hell they let everyone have access to such things...because someone has to be in charge, right?

The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them. To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.” To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.

Douglas Adams
The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 08:54:26 PM
The thing is you can't really go backward. Returning to the gold standard wouldn't work.

This has to be fixed by getting to the point where you can change the entire concept of currency, and again, technology is the only viable solution to that.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Mistwell on September 03, 2021, 10:48:18 PM
That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.

I am curious what your thoughts are on Bitcoin and other crypto currencies?
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Jam The MF on September 03, 2021, 11:32:00 PM
Pat and Pundit have me thinking about '2112', an album by Rush; particularly 'The Temple of Syrinx' and 'The Wizard of Oz'.  Behind any supertech maybe someone beyond most people, but a person nonetheless.


The Temple of Syrinx, is the best song Rush ever recorded.  Just awesome.  Imagine having that song going in the background, and a bunch of miniatures out on the table; Orc hordes everywhere, and heroes with Greataxes, Greatswords, and Greatmauls cutting wide swaths of destruction.  Good times!!!
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on September 03, 2021, 11:44:53 PM
The thing is you can't really go backward. Returning to the gold standard wouldn't work.

This has to be fixed by getting to the point where you can change the entire concept of currency, and again, technology is the only viable solution to that.
Can't go back to the same peg, but adopting a new gold standard would work fine. Or bitcoin. Anything where government can't just decide to increase the amount of money.

That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.

I am curious what your thoughts are on Bitcoin and other crypto currencies?
People have been using that term for Facebook's Libra/Diem and China's digital Renminbi, and those are just electronic versions of centrally controlled fiat currencies.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 04, 2021, 12:25:24 AM
Pat and Pundit have me thinking about '2112', an album by Rush; particularly 'The Temple of Syrinx' and 'The Wizard of Oz'.  Behind any supertech maybe someone beyond most people, but a person nonetheless.


The Temple of Syrinx, is the best song Rush ever recorded.  Just awesome.  Imagine having that song going in the background, and a bunch of miniatures out on the table; Orc hordes everywhere, and heroes with Greataxes, Greatswords, and Greatmauls cutting wide swaths of destruction.  Good times!!!

Hey, man. Talking about gaming in a politics thread? Whatdaya think this is?  ;D
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Mistwell on September 04, 2021, 12:34:17 AM
The thing is you can't really go backward. Returning to the gold standard wouldn't work.

This has to be fixed by getting to the point where you can change the entire concept of currency, and again, technology is the only viable solution to that.
Can't go back to the same peg, but adopting a new gold standard would work fine. Or bitcoin. Anything where government can't just decide to increase the amount of money.

That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.

I am curious what your thoughts are on Bitcoin and other crypto currencies?
People have been using that term for Facebook's Libra/Diem and China's digital Renminbi, and those are just electronic versions of centrally controlled fiat currencies.

Well I am not talking about digital currency, just crypto currency. Which is by definition transactions that are verified and records maintained by a decentralized system using cryptography, rather than by a centralized authority.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: RPGPundit on September 04, 2021, 06:41:53 AM
That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.

I am curious what your thoughts are on Bitcoin and other crypto currencies?

I think they're an attempt at that very thing. However, it's impossible to say whether that will be the model that ultimately succeeds, or something better comes along.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: oggsmash on September 04, 2021, 08:09:21 AM
  I have no idea if crypto currency will work in the long term to remove people from central banking, and thus a central control system (government).   I know there are several currencies and programs developing that would allow anyone anywhere to offer investment to anyone they want with no one but the parties involved knowing about it.  I think once a blockchain exists to allow investment into anything any where without some authority knowing about it, and does so easily and reliably (there are lots of ways now to do this, but some blockchains are developing where you simply click and it is done) the hammer will come down on crypto.  Projects like Cardano and solana are going to make a big impact, and will do a great deal to bring banking and investment to people on the ground in developing nations. 

   How much use some things actually get I can not say.  For me, crypto is usually an attempt to follow peoples fee-fees as to what will make me a bit of extra change.  The past 4 years though, and especially the past 2 institutions have become much more involved in holding onto things like bitcoin to store value and they treat it much more like an asset than a fad.   That has created a wave where pocket change can turn into real money.  I have no idea if this is some canary in the coal mine where the big boys see something down the road I can not regarding crashes or inflation, or if they have simply accepted some cryptos as a real and sustainable thing.  I guess time will tell.

  I do know that anyone willing to learn a bit and seeks pattern recognition can make a bit of money from crypto more easily than say a day trader on the stock market due to the massive difference in volatility, and this allows for quite a bit of freedom, and some young people who start with as little as 100 dollars have made situations for themselves where they do not need jobs to handle their financial support of their lifestyles (which tend to be cheaper than older or older married with kids people).  I also wonder what sort of ways this can affect the work force moving forward.   Maybe everyone can not do it, but if a sharp person who might other wise be an accountant/engineer/chemist/software developer decides to trade crypto and just make money in their Pajamas for a couple hours and then goes about their day doing what ever they want instead of a job that likely some portion of the system needs (government, large corporations, etc) I do wonder about the longer term effects of draining brains from some sectors of the economy if more and more of the young people take a look at the cost of college compared to watching a few you tube videos and reading some online text about developing patterns and simply watching and taking part for themselves. 

   That leads me to another thought, the institutions are entering crypto because they always had an idea it would work, but are looking to shore up owning more of the assets to remove a good deal of the volatility from some (reality is bitcoin movement largely controls the entire market to a degree, no matter how hot other projects are or how much good news there is.  Movement on those things is almost always precipitated to some degree by bitcoin - whether it is an increase or a marked transfer from one asset to the other) and maybe remove some of these day and swing trade types who help keep the volatility going and.... for the tastes of some rich and powerful people, are simply making too much money (and money = freedom, and add in you make much more money for each hour engaged and that is the real idea of freedom = more time) and I can not see this going on for that much longer.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Trond on September 04, 2021, 09:05:21 AM
Not an expert in this by any means but here’s my two cents:

There WAS a tendency towards world unification/government, but the trend has shifted. EU lost members or didn’t obtain members that everyone thought would join. Also, although the fall of communism in Russia did lessen international tensions, it didn’t exactly have the unifying effect many expected. Many different cultures basically found that they do not  share the same values after all. The Muslim world was seemingly progressing towards Western values for a while, but then reversed and turned more Islamic conservative. In several countries this process is still ongoing (e.g Bangladesh).
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Zelen on September 04, 2021, 11:57:25 AM
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.

Yeah, I don't put faith in there ever being an eternal ruling class of benevolent & enlightened people. But a ruling class that isn't full of the worst of the worst is a necessary precondition to making positive reforms. I agree there's no ultimate solution except an educated and principled population, but I do think we can (and should/must) make it harder for tyrants to get their hands on technological and social levers of power.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on September 04, 2021, 12:23:41 PM
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.

Yeah, I don't put faith in there ever being an eternal ruling class of benevolent & enlightened people. But a ruling class that isn't full of the worst of the worst is a necessary precondition to making positive reforms. I agree there's no ultimate solution except an educated and principled population, but I do think we can (and should/must) make it harder for tyrants to get their hands on technological and social levers of power.
Of course there are problems with a sufficiently informed populace as well. As people become richer and more comfortable, they stop caring as much about freedoms. And as people become dependent on the government for more and more stuff, it becomes harder to muster serious opposition. The populace won't become corrupted as quickly as the leadership, but when it happens, it's equally hard to fight. The only solution I can think of, and the one was successful for more than a century in the US, is to leave people to be responsible for their own lives and the lives of those they care about. The biggest argument in favor of a sparse state isn't selfishness, or the endless failures of central planning, but that it's required for a strong citizenry.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on September 05, 2021, 04:24:19 PM
Scheme.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: DocJones on September 05, 2021, 06:41:34 PM
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.
Reminds me of this:
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” - C.S. Lewis
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: DocJones on September 05, 2021, 06:54:48 PM
That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.
We once thought we could win that fight.
What happens when GoDaddy revokes your domain name amd/or Dreamhost revokes your server and/or your bank revokes your accounts/credit cards because your website isn't woke or is anti-woke?
What happens when ICANN goes international and will no longer certify domain name providers who don't censor?
Does everyone go Darkweb?


Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Marchand on September 13, 2021, 02:16:47 AM
I don't believe there is a conscious drive towards a world government. Instead what we are seeing is the entrenchment of political power at national level by an elite that regulates entry to itself mainly through educational attainment. The real hardcore went to Ivy League/Oxbridge, and then there is the Outer Party (so to speak) from the next tier universities. And like any halfway-smart elite they will co-opt people from other areas e.g. cultural influencers or successful capitalists. These people are not driving towards a world government for its own sake, but they like to defer power upwards to international institutions because they control them (in personnel terms, i.e. you have to be elite to work in those institutions), and because it reduces the sphere of decision left to democratically-controlled national governments.

Like any social group, the elite achieves consolidation and cohesion by defining itself against what it isn't. What it isn't is the mass of people in its own countries. The people who live outside the M25 and certain university towns in the UK, or outside the wealthy districts of certain US cities.

The elites generally don't want to abolish democracy formally, because the rituals and processes are a useful way of manufacturing consent / invalidating dissent. But clearly you can't just let the great unwashed vote for what they want, because it might undermine your own privileges. So they need to guide democracy and make sure it generates the right results.

They do it in two complementary ways: 1) emphasising their unique expertise in policy 2) reverse-delegating as much power as possible to international institutions that are independent of national governments and electorates, and which are controlled by members of the elite.

This probably explains the intensity of the narrative around incompetent Boris/Trump, efficient Merkel/Adern. Don't get me wrong, Boris and Trump were/are pretty incompetent. But actual results didn't and don't matter. Hardly anyone in the mainstream elite-serving media is seriously saying we should reassess the judgement based on say faster vaccinations in the UK than Germany, or the shitshow of ongoing lockdowns in NZ.

The expertise is often almost entirely bullshit by the way, in case anyone needs told that. In my own professional area of economics there is a sort of collective suspension of disbelief as we pretend to each other we know what we are doing. I have heard very senior people in private admit openly that we do not.

Climate science and policy is so useful for the elite that if it didn't exist, they'd have had to invent it. Requires expertise, check. Shuts down debate, check. Can only be addressed internationally, check. Costs largely borne by people who live outside densely built-up inner cities, check.

Buying into woke social attitudes and policies is a good way to distinguish yourself from the masses as well.

COVID has been an absolute godsend, although to be clear, I don't think that means it was deliberate.

So it might be a subtle difference and it might look kind of similar in the end, but I think on the whole international/global institutions are used to consolidate political, cultural and economic power at the national level, rather than out of a genuine desire to build a Huxleyesque World State, much less an Orwellian one.

In fact, a real world state might not be so good for the elite because there would be no higher level of authority left to delegate up to i.e. away from the people affected by policy.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Shasarak on September 13, 2021, 02:22:42 AM
Hardly anyone in the mainstream elite-serving media is seriously saying we should reassess the judgement based on say faster vaccinations in the UK than Germany, or the shitshow of ongoing lockdowns in NZ.

I am not here to defend NZ lockdowns but shitshow?  No one is going around shooting dogs here.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: caldrail on September 29, 2021, 11:00:39 PM
Just my two cents on world government. Whilst communication technology has made it more possible, there is a fundamental tribalism to human beings that extends in some cases right down to family or street level. However much control is imposed on human society, compliance is only satisfactory whilst that control is seen as strong. Any weakness and uniformity suffers. This is because human beings are diverse creatures. It's a natural characteristic derived from our social instincts which keeps the competition level high and our population dynamic. We talk a lot about the power of speech as the reason we became a dominant species, but the truth is our diversity provides a framework for optimum opportunity, thus in theory a society has people in it with the necessary attitudes and skills to survive any given situation.

So could a world government evolve? Potentially, though as one poster has already suggested, that might well mean a domineering empire, and human tribalism would always ensure that elements of society break away.

As an aside, the massive galactic civilisations of scifi? Wonderful story material, but unlikely given human nature. As soon as Humanity reaches another habitable world, diversity would drive change, evolution, mutation, and a need to remain independent in their own territory.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on October 01, 2021, 10:21:27 AM
Just my two cents on world government. Whilst communication technology has made it more possible, there is a fundamental tribalism to human beings that extends in some cases right down to family or street level. However much control is imposed on human society, compliance is only satisfactory whilst that control is seen as strong. Any weakness and uniformity suffers. This is because human beings are diverse creatures. It's a natural characteristic derived from our social instincts which keeps the competition level high and our population dynamic. We talk a lot about the power of speech as the reason we became a dominant species, but the truth is our diversity provides a framework for optimum opportunity, thus in theory a society has people in it with the necessary attitudes and skills to survive any given situation.

So could a world government evolve? Potentially, though as one poster has already suggested, that might well mean a domineering empire, and human tribalism would always ensure that elements of society break away.
You're assuming it will be possible to break away. But with the panopticon taking form in places like London and Berlin, there will be no place you can meet or join with other like-minded people without being tracked and observed. With the censorship of social media, the warrantless monitoring of your every action on the internet, and the uberstasi watching it all for any trace of misinformation, hate speech, or any other kind of wrongthink, there will be no place left to speak. And with the use of AI to monitor that vast flow of information for patterns, and draw conclusions, even your hidden personal thoughts may be exposed. Combine that with drones and other technologies that allow the mostly automated application of overwhelming and precise force en masse, a tiny handful of elites will be able to indefinitely suppress the teeming masses. Then apply that formula to the whole world at once, and there will be no Outside, no Wild, no place left where humans can be free. How then would separatists movements even form, much less rise up? Unless we can escape this planet first, I fear the inevitable future is a perpetual boot, grinding away the last traces of humanity diversity and thought.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 01, 2021, 10:40:41 AM
What one man can code, another can hack. Or vandalize.

Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: caldrail on October 01, 2021, 06:31:15 PM
Quote
I fear the inevitable future is a perpetual boot, grinding away the last traces of humanity diversity and thought.
Certainly a potential future but the reason it won't happen is because there are always enough people in influence with strong principles. This is why democracy is so important and why it has to be defended. The Americans should have learned that lesson recently.

However, even if the worst happens and an extreme over-intrusive government occurs on the world stage, bear in mind that this diversifying nature of Humanity will eventually strike again. Power is an attractive prize. History shows that some individuals will be utterly callous, ruthless, and conniving in order to achieve it, even if they don't deserve or qualify the position. This means that any ultra-powerful government will almost immediately become at the mercy of the very same information gatherers they thrive on.

It's useful to look at East Germany of the Cold War period, where up to one third of the populace were acting as informers with or without consent. Yet people still managed to live their lives. They still managed to escape over or under the famous Berlin Wall, or in one case, simply drive their everyday train past the normal stop and through to western liberty. Or in a hot air balloon.

For every step toward ultimate control a society takes there are going to be people who will ingeniously find ways to get around it. Where is East Germany now? Back in the western sphere. A rebellion couldn't realistically have happened but the regime could not survive without foreign support.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 09:48:48 PM
You're assuming it will be possible to break away. But with the panopticon taking form in places like London and Berlin, there will be no place you can meet or join with other like-minded people without being tracked and observed. With the censorship of social media, the warrantless monitoring of your every action on the internet, and the uberstasi watching it all for any trace of misinformation, hate speech, or any other kind of wrongthink, there will be no place left to speak. And with the use of AI to monitor that vast flow of information for patterns, and draw conclusions, even your hidden personal thoughts may be exposed. Combine that with drones and other technologies that allow the mostly automated application of overwhelming and precise force en masse, a tiny handful of elites will be able to indefinitely suppress the teeming masses.

I'd say that technology has always been a double-edged sword - as shown by the success of technology like bitcoin. Even low-tech solutions can work fine, as shown by the success of the Taliban. In my opinion, it's not that the Taliban were some sort of military geniuses - it's that the vaunted power of surveillance and drones and such are overrated.

As someone now working in the AI field, I think the ability of AI to mind control people is overrated. I do think that social media is addictive, in ways stronger than alcohol or existing drugs. But for the foreseeable future, I think convincing people of an opinion will be something at most handled by human creativity.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on October 01, 2021, 11:18:39 PM
Quote
I fear the inevitable future is a perpetual boot, grinding away the last traces of humanity diversity and thought.
Certainly a potential future but the reason it won't happen is because there are always enough people in influence with strong principles.
Name one significant political figure in the US with any principles.

Bernie was the closest thing to a principled thinker on the left, and he sold out for a new house. AOC, if she ever qualified, quickly became Pelosi's lapdog. Rand Paul a bit, but he suffers in comparison to his father. Maybe one or two other Republicans like Massie might show a shred of principle here and there. But they'll be co-opted, marginalized and challenged by establishment candidates with vastly more funding, or if they manage to hold on, will become lone voices in the wilderness who are studiously ignored by the mainstream. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB5t_6R4MOg)

The boot is coming.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on October 01, 2021, 11:35:32 PM
You're assuming it will be possible to break away. But with the panopticon taking form in places like London and Berlin, there will be no place you can meet or join with other like-minded people without being tracked and observed. With the censorship of social media, the warrantless monitoring of your every action on the internet, and the uberstasi watching it all for any trace of misinformation, hate speech, or any other kind of wrongthink, there will be no place left to speak. And with the use of AI to monitor that vast flow of information for patterns, and draw conclusions, even your hidden personal thoughts may be exposed. Combine that with drones and other technologies that allow the mostly automated application of overwhelming and precise force en masse, a tiny handful of elites will be able to indefinitely suppress the teeming masses.

I'd say that technology has always been a double-edged sword - as shown by the success of technology like bitcoin. Even low-tech solutions can work fine, as shown by the success of the Taliban. In my opinion, it's not that the Taliban were some sort of military geniuses - it's that the vaunted power of surveillance and drones and such are overrated.

As someone now working in the AI field, I think the ability of AI to mind control people is overrated. I do think that social media is addictive, in ways stronger than alcohol or existing drugs. But for the foreseeable future, I think convincing people of an opinion will be something at most handled by human creativity.
Nobody said a thing about mind control. Once again, you're making up shit that isn't my posts in order to create strawmen you can knock down while pretending you're responding to me.

What deep learning is good at is pattern recognition, not the MK Ultra crap you're spouting. It allows China to identify people by their gait, and combined with networked cameras everywhere allows them to track everywhere they go and everyone they meet in real time throughout their entire lives. That in itself will make resistance almost impossible. It can also be used to scan social media posts, and identify political leanings based on seemingly inconsequential data, like your drink preferences. How exactly can you hide everything you are at all times? It's not humanly possible. AI can be used for analysis, censorship, and drawing connections.

The whole part about the Taliban also completely fails to address the issue being discussed. The US didn't put 100 cameras on every street corner and have drones patrolling every block, so it's nonsensical to call it out as an example of the pantopticon failing. Drones aren't a threat because a Predator can blow up weddings; they're a threat because they're starting to be used for precise assassinations and deployed en masse, and are getting better every day. They are the precise application of force on a scale that previously required flesh and blood grunts going from door to door, and we're seeing clear signs they're starting to overcome the main limitations associated with urban warfare, or to be more direct, the suppression of a population by a police state. We're not there yet, but it's the surveillance state combined with AI-based tools to basically track everything everyone does and deduce potential threats or wrongthink based on seemingly random and irrational but demonstrably accurate data points, and the remote and scalpel-like application of force with very little effort or cost, that could lead to an eternal state where the masses have no ability to resist the ruling elite.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Zelen on October 02, 2021, 10:08:10 AM
We're not there yet, but it's the surveillance state combined with AI-based tools to basically track everything everyone does and deduce potential threats or wrongthink based on seemingly random and irrational but demonstrably accurate data points, and the remote and scalpel-like application of force with very little effort or cost, that could lead to an eternal state where the masses have no ability to resist the ruling elite.

It doesn't even need to be "demonstrably accurate" data points when you have state-controlled propaganda on your side. You can kill US military veterans in political demonstrations, murder political opponents in the street, or drone strike an aid worker and his family, for example, and no one will really care as long as the state-controlled propaganda buries the story or makes up some lie about whoever was assassinated.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 12, 2021, 01:29:15 PM
What deep learning is good at is pattern recognition.... It allows China to identify people by their gait, and combined with networked cameras everywhere allows them to track everywhere they go and everyone they meet in real time throughout their entire lives.

Walk without rhythm, and you won't attract the worm.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Pat on October 12, 2021, 01:33:14 PM
What deep learning is good at is pattern recognition.... It allows China to identify people by their gait, and combined with networked cameras everywhere allows them to track everywhere they go and everyone they meet in real time throughout their entire lives.

Walk without rhythm, and you won't attract the worm.
Slim Walken's best work.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 12, 2021, 07:51:04 PM
What deep learning is good at is pattern recognition.... It allows China to identify people by their gait, and combined with networked cameras everywhere allows them to track everywhere they go and everyone they meet in real time throughout their entire lives.

Walk without rhythm, and you won't attract the worm.
Slim Walken's best work.

It's up there, though I have a soft spot for The Prophecy.
Title: Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
Post by: Neoplatonist1 on October 12, 2021, 08:44:15 PM
Phrased as a question then, are we moving towards a world government, and if so, what is driving it?

Let's say there is an intention for the powerful to seek more power. These powerful people are ministered to by managers and operatives, who, in one way or another, owe their success in life to them. Thus, any explicit or even implicit desire by the powerful, tends to lead to enterprising managers deploying operatives to do things that might please the powerful. As Muhammed Ali once said, "Tell me when I'm wrong."

In specific terms, we have the Anglo-American liberal establishment with the biggest piece of the power pie, the greatest reach, the longest head-start, the deepest coffers, the best connections, the most pliable populations, and thus with the greatest inward groaning towards more power.

The first thing to realize is that this grooming process has been going on for centuries, and is behind the ideological and philosophical meta-political warfare that's been atomized into training the population to believe in mysterious and unrelated pop-ups of random "genius" thinkers or artists, who exist in political vacuums and are washed away by the tides of history. For them, there is no pedigree of epistemological thought, there is no elite-serving intention (witting) or utility (unwitting) behind a Marx, or a Gauss, or a Schiller, or a Poe; there is no history of opposing civilizational impulses locked in mortal combat vying for total control of mankind.

The second thing to realize is that as a result of this grooming process, 99.9% of everything in pop culture is propaganda training the mind to continue to believe in the pop-up random genius worldview, the severing of the mind from the epistemological artery of genuinely human life and genuinely human history. So, instead, we have a pantheon of entertainment "amusing ourselves to death" including softball (RPGs) and hardball (riots) versions.