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Author Topic: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government  (Read 1152 times)

Mistwell

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2021, 12:34:17 AM »
The thing is you can't really go backward. Returning to the gold standard wouldn't work.

This has to be fixed by getting to the point where you can change the entire concept of currency, and again, technology is the only viable solution to that.
Can't go back to the same peg, but adopting a new gold standard would work fine. Or bitcoin. Anything where government can't just decide to increase the amount of money.

That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.

I am curious what your thoughts are on Bitcoin and other crypto currencies?
People have been using that term for Facebook's Libra/Diem and China's digital Renminbi, and those are just electronic versions of centrally controlled fiat currencies.

Well I am not talking about digital currency, just crypto currency. Which is by definition transactions that are verified and records maintained by a decentralized system using cryptography, rather than by a centralized authority.

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2021, 06:41:53 AM »
That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.

I am curious what your thoughts are on Bitcoin and other crypto currencies?

I think they're an attempt at that very thing. However, it's impossible to say whether that will be the model that ultimately succeeds, or something better comes along.
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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2021, 08:09:21 AM »
  I have no idea if crypto currency will work in the long term to remove people from central banking, and thus a central control system (government).   I know there are several currencies and programs developing that would allow anyone anywhere to offer investment to anyone they want with no one but the parties involved knowing about it.  I think once a blockchain exists to allow investment into anything any where without some authority knowing about it, and does so easily and reliably (there are lots of ways now to do this, but some blockchains are developing where you simply click and it is done) the hammer will come down on crypto.  Projects like Cardano and solana are going to make a big impact, and will do a great deal to bring banking and investment to people on the ground in developing nations. 

   How much use some things actually get I can not say.  For me, crypto is usually an attempt to follow peoples fee-fees as to what will make me a bit of extra change.  The past 4 years though, and especially the past 2 institutions have become much more involved in holding onto things like bitcoin to store value and they treat it much more like an asset than a fad.   That has created a wave where pocket change can turn into real money.  I have no idea if this is some canary in the coal mine where the big boys see something down the road I can not regarding crashes or inflation, or if they have simply accepted some cryptos as a real and sustainable thing.  I guess time will tell.

  I do know that anyone willing to learn a bit and seeks pattern recognition can make a bit of money from crypto more easily than say a day trader on the stock market due to the massive difference in volatility, and this allows for quite a bit of freedom, and some young people who start with as little as 100 dollars have made situations for themselves where they do not need jobs to handle their financial support of their lifestyles (which tend to be cheaper than older or older married with kids people).  I also wonder what sort of ways this can affect the work force moving forward.   Maybe everyone can not do it, but if a sharp person who might other wise be an accountant/engineer/chemist/software developer decides to trade crypto and just make money in their Pajamas for a couple hours and then goes about their day doing what ever they want instead of a job that likely some portion of the system needs (government, large corporations, etc) I do wonder about the longer term effects of draining brains from some sectors of the economy if more and more of the young people take a look at the cost of college compared to watching a few you tube videos and reading some online text about developing patterns and simply watching and taking part for themselves. 

   That leads me to another thought, the institutions are entering crypto because they always had an idea it would work, but are looking to shore up owning more of the assets to remove a good deal of the volatility from some (reality is bitcoin movement largely controls the entire market to a degree, no matter how hot other projects are or how much good news there is.  Movement on those things is almost always precipitated to some degree by bitcoin - whether it is an increase or a marked transfer from one asset to the other) and maybe remove some of these day and swing trade types who help keep the volatility going and.... for the tastes of some rich and powerful people, are simply making too much money (and money = freedom, and add in you make much more money for each hour engaged and that is the real idea of freedom = more time) and I can not see this going on for that much longer.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 08:11:41 AM by oggsmash »

Trond

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2021, 09:05:21 AM »
Not an expert in this by any means but here’s my two cents:

There WAS a tendency towards world unification/government, but the trend has shifted. EU lost members or didn’t obtain members that everyone thought would join. Also, although the fall of communism in Russia did lessen international tensions, it didn’t exactly have the unifying effect many expected. Many different cultures basically found that they do not  share the same values after all. The Muslim world was seemingly progressing towards Western values for a while, but then reversed and turned more Islamic conservative. In several countries this process is still ongoing (e.g Bangladesh).

Zelen

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2021, 11:57:25 AM »
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.

Yeah, I don't put faith in there ever being an eternal ruling class of benevolent & enlightened people. But a ruling class that isn't full of the worst of the worst is a necessary precondition to making positive reforms. I agree there's no ultimate solution except an educated and principled population, but I do think we can (and should/must) make it harder for tyrants to get their hands on technological and social levers of power.

Pat

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2021, 12:23:41 PM »
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.

Yeah, I don't put faith in there ever being an eternal ruling class of benevolent & enlightened people. But a ruling class that isn't full of the worst of the worst is a necessary precondition to making positive reforms. I agree there's no ultimate solution except an educated and principled population, but I do think we can (and should/must) make it harder for tyrants to get their hands on technological and social levers of power.
Of course there are problems with a sufficiently informed populace as well. As people become richer and more comfortable, they stop caring as much about freedoms. And as people become dependent on the government for more and more stuff, it becomes harder to muster serious opposition. The populace won't become corrupted as quickly as the leadership, but when it happens, it's equally hard to fight. The only solution I can think of, and the one was successful for more than a century in the US, is to leave people to be responsible for their own lives and the lives of those they care about. The biggest argument in favor of a sparse state isn't selfishness, or the endless failures of central planning, but that it's required for a strong citizenry.

GriswaldTerrastone

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2021, 04:24:19 PM »
Scheme.
I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

DocJones

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2021, 06:41:34 PM »
First, we need a better class of human in charge of things, people with integrity and morals.
That will never work. Even if the near impossible occurs and we're blessed with a generation of morally impeccable leaders, that state will never endure. Philosopher kings will inevitably be replaced by philosopher tyrants. The real hope isn't in a better class of leaders, but in a sufficiently informed and independent populace. All governments rely on the implied consent of the people, and as we've seen with the corruption of utterly unambiguous constitutional principles and the agglomeration of power, we can't rely on written laws or checks and balances between institutions. The only real check to tyranny is a populace who holds the principles of freedom and independence as their highest values, above mundane things like wealth, comfort, or even their lives.
Reminds me of this:
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” - C.S. Lewis
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DocJones

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2021, 06:54:48 PM »
That's why it's so important to fight for a free internet, and develop technologies that are sufficiently decentralized as to be beyond the scope of government control.
We once thought we could win that fight.
What happens when GoDaddy revokes your domain name amd/or Dreamhost revokes your server and/or your bank revokes your accounts/credit cards because your website isn't woke or is anti-woke?
What happens when ICANN goes international and will no longer certify domain name providers who don't censor?
Does everyone go Darkweb?


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Marchand

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2021, 02:16:47 AM »
I don't believe there is a conscious drive towards a world government. Instead what we are seeing is the entrenchment of political power at national level by an elite that regulates entry to itself mainly through educational attainment. The real hardcore went to Ivy League/Oxbridge, and then there is the Outer Party (so to speak) from the next tier universities. And like any halfway-smart elite they will co-opt people from other areas e.g. cultural influencers or successful capitalists. These people are not driving towards a world government for its own sake, but they like to defer power upwards to international institutions because they control them (in personnel terms, i.e. you have to be elite to work in those institutions), and because it reduces the sphere of decision left to democratically-controlled national governments.

Like any social group, the elite achieves consolidation and cohesion by defining itself against what it isn't. What it isn't is the mass of people in its own countries. The people who live outside the M25 and certain university towns in the UK, or outside the wealthy districts of certain US cities.

The elites generally don't want to abolish democracy formally, because the rituals and processes are a useful way of manufacturing consent / invalidating dissent. But clearly you can't just let the great unwashed vote for what they want, because it might undermine your own privileges. So they need to guide democracy and make sure it generates the right results.

They do it in two complementary ways: 1) emphasising their unique expertise in policy 2) reverse-delegating as much power as possible to international institutions that are independent of national governments and electorates, and which are controlled by members of the elite.

This probably explains the intensity of the narrative around incompetent Boris/Trump, efficient Merkel/Adern. Don't get me wrong, Boris and Trump were/are pretty incompetent. But actual results didn't and don't matter. Hardly anyone in the mainstream elite-serving media is seriously saying we should reassess the judgement based on say faster vaccinations in the UK than Germany, or the shitshow of ongoing lockdowns in NZ.

The expertise is often almost entirely bullshit by the way, in case anyone needs told that. In my own professional area of economics there is a sort of collective suspension of disbelief as we pretend to each other we know what we are doing. I have heard very senior people in private admit openly that we do not.

Climate science and policy is so useful for the elite that if it didn't exist, they'd have had to invent it. Requires expertise, check. Shuts down debate, check. Can only be addressed internationally, check. Costs largely borne by people who live outside densely built-up inner cities, check.

Buying into woke social attitudes and policies is a good way to distinguish yourself from the masses as well.

COVID has been an absolute godsend, although to be clear, I don't think that means it was deliberate.

So it might be a subtle difference and it might look kind of similar in the end, but I think on the whole international/global institutions are used to consolidate political, cultural and economic power at the national level, rather than out of a genuine desire to build a Huxleyesque World State, much less an Orwellian one.

In fact, a real world state might not be so good for the elite because there would be no higher level of authority left to delegate up to i.e. away from the people affected by policy.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 02:21:49 AM by Marchand »
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Shasarak

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Re: Trend or Scheme Towards World Government
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2021, 02:22:42 AM »
Hardly anyone in the mainstream elite-serving media is seriously saying we should reassess the judgement based on say faster vaccinations in the UK than Germany, or the shitshow of ongoing lockdowns in NZ.

I am not here to defend NZ lockdowns but shitshow?  No one is going around shooting dogs here.
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