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Author Topic: This is Why We Don't Like You  (Read 21844 times)

RPGPundit

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This is Why We Don't Like You
« on: August 05, 2014, 06:11:38 pm »
theRPGsite acts as a historical archive of sorts already, in part for my old blog entries.  So much so that in the recent idiotic campaign to try to blacklist me, the mods of theRPGsite have spotted people like rpgnet/SA-mod "Ettin" spending considerable time poring through posts from almost a decade ago, in their desperate attempt to find some "dirt" to use against me.

But I've just been clued into the fact that there's often a lot of stuff that some of the Outrage Brigade have written that would qualify as very Bad Behaviour indeed; and rather than standing by the history of what they said, they often try to edit or delete their own messages as soon as it becomes inconvenient or they think people might use it against them.

So I'm offering the Pundit's forum of theRPGsite as a place where you can copy/paste anything you've noticed any of the Outrage Brigade saying, whether in the heat of the moment or because they thought none of us "unwashed masses" they so despise were listening.  You can post any of their bad behaviour there, where it will stay on the internet as a historical record, so that anytime they try to engage in crusades against people they disagree with, their own words and actions will be available to be shown to potential employers or publishers so that the context of their bullshit can be made clear.

Note that what I want is just a posting of the true historical record. Unlike the Outrage Brigade, we don't need to make up any lies to make sure everyone (in the RPG publishing industry and the hobby in general) knows just how toxic they are.


This thread will remain stickied in the Pundit's forum.

NOTE: this thread is NOT for posting any commentary. Please ONLY post copied evidence of misbehaviour by the Outrage Brigade here.  Please do not respond to or answer posts here. Anyone who wishes to can start a separate thread to address specific things said or posted here.  Any post that is not just a presentation of evidence for archival purposes will be deleted.


NOTE 2: Also, this is NOT the site for posting stuff like "oh, this guy banned me from rpgnet", unless it involves something that shows a wider pattern of bad behaviour in in the name of pseudo-activism, 'social justice warrioring', etc.
"an RPGnet mod banned me because I questioned whether golarion was really racist or not" is not news.
This is not just the place for posting highly personal slights.
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Novastar

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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2014, 06:29:01 pm »
http://oblivionnecroninja.tumblr.com/post/93473003637/how-dungeons-and-dragons-is-endorsing-the-darkest-parts

Quote


Seriously, tumblr, if somebody stabs RPGpundit or Zak S, I will provide an alibi for them.

 Source: failforwardrpg  

August 1, 2014 (1:15 am)
1437 notes
#please do it
#you will make the world a better place
Quote from: dragoner;776244
Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn't what I play rpg's for.

snooggums

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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2014, 07:12:22 pm »
SJW implying that sex is an obligation in relationships.


Then gets defensive when called on it, but makes it worse.


Apparently cutting a significant other off from sex because of a lack of interest is hurting someone all of the time.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 07:23:12 pm by snooggums »

Zak S

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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2014, 07:54:15 pm »
"That being said, harem anime is pathetic and disgusting. Fetish anime ditto. Hentai anime ditto. "

--Wundergeek
-
-
-


Zak: "You said: "Do I want Hyun Tae Kim to stop making art now and forever? No "But you say you're "against" it. What then are you suggesting he himself actually do? Or that other people do about it?Are you just saying he should keep making it and people should just keep complaining about it until he's unpopular?"

Another interlocutor: ""I won't presume to speak for Wundergeek, but here's my own thoughts on the question of how to deal with people who like this stuff.It's really an issue of context, in my mind. Under some contexts, what they're doing is clearly unproblematic (eg. the BDSM subculture, which from my understanding is very concerned about issues of consent and meta-consent despite the lack of consent being a turn-on), and under some contexts, it clearly is (eg. the jerk who really doesn't care whether partners are hurt or not, as long as there aren't legal repercussions).It's really impossible to say which group the people who like HTK's artwork fall under, so we can only roll our eyes at their bad taste.HTK himself, on the other hand, is much easier to condemn, because his choice to aim his artwork at an audience composed largely of young males whose lust for compromised female bodies is not anchored by a strong foundation of respect for women's meta-level wishes implies that he doesn't see a need for context in the first place.What should be done about it seems to follow naturally from the idea of context — kick it out of the mainstream, where it's likely to be misinterpreted, and allow it to be provided in spaces where the necessary context is known and agreed upon. That's probably still not ideal for its fans, but the level of harm that could be done by it seems smaller than the level of harm done by the perpetuation of consent brinksmanship."

Wundergeek: "Yes. That"
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Zak S

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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2014, 07:57:55 pm »
Ben Lehman:

"And [George RR] Martin is pretty much expressive, not offensive, to the basic ideas of gender in our culture. (added) He is pretty much like "women should be raped to make them docile."

https://plus.google.com/117301572585814320386/posts/6qHf396vEhb
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2014, 08:49:21 pm »
I know this thread doesn't allow regular posts. But thank you Pundit for a thread to store and collate the bullshit hate.
Don't mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

Zak S

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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2014, 10:01:16 pm »
Shawn Struck
@shawnstruck
https://twitter.com/shawnstruck

shawn struck ‏@shawnstruck  11m
@ZakSmithSabbath is tweeting me with posts defending D&D harassers. Like, who am I gonna believe, him or my own two eyes, right?

 ɥʇıɯS ʞɐZ ‏@ZakSmithSabbath  10m
@shawnstruck Are you claiming online and in public that you witnessed a person get harassed by one of the D&D consultants, Shawn?

 shawn struck ‏@shawnstruck  7m
@ZakSmithSabbath I can use my two eyes to read things that RPGPundit and Zak S have done and said, so ??? idk how I can make it plainer.

 ɥʇıɯS ʞɐZ ‏@ZakSmithSabbath  6m
@shawnstruck So give us a quote where I am ableist, racist sexist, homophobic or transphobic.

shawn struck
‏@shawnstruck
@ZakSmithSabbath Why did you type the word "fart" 14 times just now?
 

https://twitter.com/shawnstruck/status/496836489519828993
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 10:04:31 pm by Zak S »
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Novastar

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This is Why We Don't Like You
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2014, 11:30:23 pm »
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?732895-5ed-consultants-controversy

Quote from: Darren MacLennan
You're accusing people of white knighting, which is, like, smack-dab up against the derailing guidelines in the rules - but calling out another poster and declaring that he makes it a "toxic atmosphere" is straight up a personal attack.

So that's a week.

 -Darren MacLennan


Quote from: Darren MacLennan
Quote from: Bloodwolf
I'm pretty sure calling someone certifiably insane is a PA, and RPGPundit is a game designer, a protected class around here (unless there's some sort of special treatment here because he's banned, but that just makes attacking him weak as fuck).

First off, if you think something's an attack, you report it; you don't engage in backseat moderation and tell somebody what "should" be happening. Second, that's not a personal attack; it's an attack on the idea that storygames and social justice are conspiracies, which is permitted. Third, Pundit is still protected under rpg.net's rules. You can't attack him. But you can attack his ideas.


Quote from: JustJo
Quote from: tchnoextreme
Zak literally calls anyone he disagrees with autistic.


Quote from: kelvingreen
Anyone? Literally? Really? I disagreed with him a couple of times. He didn't call me autistic.

Quote from: Reverend mort
I have literally disagreed with Zak several times. he has literally never called me autistic.

That said, if you've seen him call someone autistic, I'd love a link?


Quote from: Ahnirades
I've also disagreed with Zak and not been called autistic.

Please cite.

Let's go with 'not literally' and drop this tangent please.


Quote from: technoextreme
All right. Lets talk about his professional association with someone who on this very forum admitted to liking movies that involves actual animal mutilation and in one instance baby rape. This one isn't even wild as I had that conversation in this very subforum.


Quote from: Gametime
What sort of proof of harassment do you imagine would satisfy people who do not currently believe it occurred? What reason do you have for thinking it would convince anyone, as opposed to simply shifting the focus to "well, there's no proof Zak was responsible?"

You don't have to believe any harassment occurred to realize asking people to provide proof would almost certainly be futile regardless.
Quote from: dragoner;776244
Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn't what I play rpg's for.

Novastar

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This is Why We Don't Like You
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2014, 11:35:33 pm »
Sorry, but I think this is kind of necessary: feel free to ask me to add to it (I realize I'm missing large chunks)!

Quote from: Ben Lehman
This was originally a private letter, I've been asked by Indie+ to make a public statement and I can't do much better than this. It's been edited from the original form.

Dear Indie+
I like you. I have enjoyed my time with you, which is why I am writing this to you. Because I am seriously upset.

Are you seriously billing James D as a "free speech advocate?" Someone who threatens their critics with rape is not a free speech advocate, they're just a regular old misogynist. I realize that misogyny is so common in TRPGs that it seems like water off a duck's back but seriously?

I don't object to you interviewing any person (although maybe if you wanted to talk about free speech you could interview the woman he harassed? just throwing that out there), but I strongly object to framings which paint harassers as free speech advocates. Harassment is the opposite of free speech.

What your lionized billing says to me, as a rape survivor, is "We don't give a fuck."

As an alternative billing can I suggest "known for threatening his critics with sexual violence and for his trivializing use of rape for cheap thrills?"

Comments are off because I don't care for comments on this.


Quote from: Zak S
So +John Stavropoulos finally finished his exhaustive, 10 months-long, unbelievably Lawful Good research into whether 80 RPG freelancers and commenters (many of them his friends) actually are taking what they say about rape online seriously.
 Basically: months ago, Ben Lehman (author of tedious RPG products) claimed James Desborough (author of different tedious RPG products) was "Someone who threatens their critics with rape"
 Now I hope I don't get an argument when I say this isn't something you just casually toss out there .
 Right?
 Even if it was an honest mistake--you really really check first before saying someone did something that shitty in a public place.
 Right?
 Like: this is an ethical standard you hold yourself to
 The short of Jon's research is this accusation turned out to be bullshit even though 80some people +1ed it and it got shared all over the RPG internet.
 Now Jon didn't name names, because he "doesn't want a witchhunt". Which is respectable. But I'm not Jon and I do think the RPG community as a whole deserves an apology from every single one of these people for confusing and distorting a very real and very serious issue of real violence that actually affects peoples' lives.
 I also think the RPG community deserves to know who they cannot trust in conversations about ethics. Anyone on the list below who hasn't apologized has the opportunity to do that now.
 Or at the very least Un-Plus One Ben Lehman's totally irresponsible public bullshit.


Quote from: Paul Ettin
If you +1'd this five-month-old post, some dude is probably trying to intimidate you into removing it right now. If you didn't, you should for solidarity. Also, giggles!


Quote from: Ben Lehman
This is not the post you're looking for.

Several months ago, I posted a private letter here publicly, at the urging of the person I wrote it to. This was a mistake.

Apparently some people have been using the letter I wrote as a justification for harassing other people, in particular sending other people death and rape threats. This is completely unacceptable.

To anyone who has received harassment based on what I wrote (here, or elsewhere): I wholly, unreservedly, and to the best of my capacity apologize.

To anyone who is using any of my writing as a justification to send death threats, rape threats, or other harassment, please do the following three things, in order:

First, stop.
Second, think about what you have done / wanted to do until you realize that it is wrong.
Third, apologize to anyone you have hurt.
Quote from: dragoner;776244
Mechanical character builds remind me of something like picking the shoe in monopoly, it isn't what I play rpg's for.

Zak S

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This is Why We Don't Like You
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2014, 03:46:11 am »
Shannon Appelcline,
https://twitter.com/Appelcline
co-owner, with Christopher Allen ( https://twitter.com/ChristopherA ) of RPGnet

Emails:

On 6/16/13 6:08 PM, zak smith wrote:
Hello,…(introduce myself)…Anyway: I think there are some serious problems with the forum moderation at RPGnet. These aren't just problems that affect me, they're the kinds of things that contribute to keeping a lot of RPG fans and professionals (including the most well-known ones) from spending much time there. (I've talked about it with them).

I think these problems are getting worse.


I have tried many times to go through proper channels and talk to the admins about this. The responses have ranged from silence, to answers that pointedly avoid answering any direct questions I've asked to, basically, insinuating or saying that asking the question in itself is a provocation and will get me moderated more harshly in the future.

I don't want to bother you with the details if you don't care--that is, if RPGnet  and its moderation is not a big deal to you or if you'd just as soon let it run itself without interfering. If, however this does concern you, please email me back and I will talk about the specifics.

Sincerely,
Zak Smith


---------------
---------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 11:08:39 -0700
From: Shannon Appelcline
To: Zak Smith
Subject: Re: Hi, This is about RPGnet

(now Shannon owns the copyright to this email not me, but Shannon's response is I should talk to the admins not him.)
----------------
----------------
On 6/17/13 11:45 AM, zak smith wrote:

I did consult the admins. Many times ( I said that in my email) they were unresponsive and suggested if I had a problem with their unresponsiveness that I contact you.

Do you see the problem there?


-zak
----------------
----------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 11:55:22 -0700
From: Shannon Appelcline
To: Zak Smith
Subject: Re: Hi, This is about RPGnet

(Shannon responds that this is fair enough, then Shannon says that Shannon visits the forums frequently and thinks the moderation is fine.)
----------------
----------------
On 6/17/13 12:00 PM, zak smith wrote:
I know you said this is your final word, but this is an important detail:

Do you have any familiarity with the specific issues you suspect I'm going
to talk about or is your "terrific job" assessment a general thing?

Because if the former, ok, I get it: you don't care.

If the latter: maybe individual users noticed things you haven't?

-z
--------------
--------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 11:55:22 -0700
From: Shannon Appelcline
To: Zak Smith
Subject: Re: Hi, This is about RPGnet

(Shannon says Shannon knows all about the "problems" I've "caused" at RPGnet. Says any further discussion of the topic will get me banned at RPGnet.)

-------

Note: Since this is not a precise cut-and-paste job, if Shannon Appelcline would like to contest the content of any part of this exchange, Shannon Appelcline is welcome to do so.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 04:02:29 am by Zak S »
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Deathbydoughnut

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Blatant lies
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2014, 05:49:21 am »


My Email to them: [spoiler] Below is the warning I received in my private message box. I find it extremely insulting, and completely ridiculous. Firstly the quoted parts are misinterpretations of points made in my post. However the quotes would suggest that I said such things when I never did. Falsely putting words into my post is slander and in my opinion complete idiocy. If your moderators cannot even correctly derive the points made in a post then they have no business projecting their ignorance onto the users of your website. I never said "Saying there is an issue with how men treat women in our hobby - that is the real sexism" is not even close to the points I was trying to make, yet your moderator called it "trolling" and "derailing"; considering the post was talking about "creepyness" in the hobby nearly every post had been talking about sexism in one manner or another, I do not consider this "derailing" since I was directly talking about the topic at hand, as well as responding to two previous posts. Also by no means was it "trolling" as I was not "double playing" anything because the quotations of my alleged "double play" are not things I said, nor are they proper representation of the points I was making.

I never made the latter point that your moderator quoted. It is not my issue that your moderator made assumptions of points about my post that did not exist. And to misrepresent alleged points in my post by putting them into quotations as if I typed those words is liable, which of course is the written form of slander. A quotation is meant to be the direct word-for-word representation of the words  used in posts. Neither set of quotation are things I've ever said, so this is a gross misrepresentation of my post and my views because this isn't anything that I think, nor is it any point I made in my post. Please review this moderator's ability to correctly moderate a post instead of projecting their own agenda.

I am familiar with the rules of your forum, in fact I refreshed myself on the rules before I made those posts. So to command that I familiarize myself with the rules is ridiculous. Not to mention I had already left the thread of my own volition, and I find that the entire warning was, to be blunt: stupid. A moderator was simply throwing their epeen around probably to find self fulfilling validation by falsely accusing me of things that weren't said, and didn't happen. As I said, I request this moderator's status and powers be reevaluated if they are going to falsely accuse people, and throw out warnings for statements they invented. Imagine if police did that in society? They could invent laws and say you broke them, and decide whatever punishment they wanted for you. It would be a direct violation of our civil liberties. And while I understand this website and it's participation are private. It is sad to see sexism, in any form, enacted on someone simply for responding to a post. I get a warning because I call out another poster for making blatant sexist remarks against male, and use my own personal history in the hobby as a reference as to why I feel that sexism is a two way street and shouldn't happen in either case. Sexism against men is just as wrong as sexism against women. Special rights are just as sexist as no rights. [/spoiler]

Then repeated the above picture.

Archived.

Rincewind1

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This is Why We Don't Like You
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2014, 03:12:49 pm »
Are you kidding me that this thread actually exists?
Furthermore, I consider that  This is Why We Don't Like You thread should be closed

RPGPundit

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This is Why We Don't Like You
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2014, 03:22:01 pm »
I'm going to repeat a few rules here:

1. DO NOT POST HERE with anything that is not just an archiving of actual bad behaviour posted.  
DO NOT post "thank yous" about how great it is that this thread is here.
DO NOT post objections about this thread being here.
You can do either of those in OTHER THREADS.  We do not want this thread getting drowned under a bunch of people talking about the thread.

2. Whatever you post please try to include the following:
A. Some kind of indication where this originally was from; if at all possible with the original link/url.  
B. The date this was posted if at all possible.
C. The name of the person who wrote it originally.
(all of these are for the purpose of clarity; it's kind of pointless to just post some long thing that leaves the reader with no idea of where it was written, who wrote it or when)

3. DO NOT post additional "commentary".  Use only a mininum description for the purposes of context (e.g., "this was first posted on ENworld in a thread entitled 'Steve Jackson Games should be boycotted!', on June 20th 2012, by Joe Fakeniceguy").
In particular don't post stuff like "What Joe REALLY meant here is that...".  If the reader can't figure that out for themselves, then you either did not post enough material for the context to be understood, or you haven't really got a very good quote for this thread.  
The point here, in any case is that the EVIDENCE SHOULD STAND ON IT'S OWN.

RPGPundit
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Zak S

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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2014, 11:10:49 am »
Dale
@mudlock
https://twitter.com/mudlock/with_replies
 
https://twitter.com/mudlock/status/496767460909907969
Dale @mudlock  ·  Aug 5
@web_kunoichi 5e wanted to appease OSR types for rules: Ok fine. Won't acknowledge their horrible attitudes on everything else: Eww.

https://twitter.com/mudlock/status/496772040569798657
Dale @mudlock  ·  Aug 5
@web_kunoichi Mearls is paying attention though. Maybe today changes his mind; acknowledges OSRs views for rules, condemns for the rest.

https://twitter.com/mudlock/status/496819613355614208
Dale @mudlock  ·  Aug 5
@mikemearls @web_kunoichi Community building isn't a court of law. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" isn't as important as being welcoming & safe.
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Planet Algol

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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2014, 02:23:06 pm »
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?698046-Rambling-Designers-social-issues-and-the-way-we-critique-games/page40

Stephen Lea Sheppard

08-09-2013

Quote
I can certainly see feeling strongly enough about an issue that one believes permanently ruining the reputations of a few creators is sufficient cost for poisoning the marketplace against content similar to that those creators made.
Yeah, but who gives a fuck? You? Jibba?

Well congrats. No one else gives a shit, so your arguments are a waste of breath.