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Author Topic: These FIVE men control your freedom  (Read 3822 times)

GameDaddy

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #105 on: January 22, 2021, 02:00:33 AM »

I don't have answers. I'm honestly asking if anyone has a solution. We're dealing with people who have straightforward said their goal is infringement on our civil liberites. I believe that free speech, even speech I abhor, is very important. But when the narrative is twisted and it becomes impossible to counter their bad speech because they control the public square, then there's no way to legally fight back.

Yes, the choice is to stop using their service, and find your own public square or milk crate to speak from.
Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

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HappyDaze

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #106 on: January 22, 2021, 06:35:59 AM »
Free Speech was for the protection of "unsafe" speech so people could say unpopular, untrue, or offensive speech without any actual repercussions.
Free Speech was never meant to shield people from repercussions of knowingly making untrue statements.

Pat

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #107 on: January 22, 2021, 06:39:21 AM »
Free Speech was for the protection of "unsafe" speech so people could say unpopular, untrue, or offensive speech without any actual repercussions.
Free Speech was never meant to shield people from repercussions of knowingly making untrue statements.
Nonsense, free speech never required a pass through the fact checkers.

HappyDaze

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #108 on: January 22, 2021, 07:38:48 AM »
Free Speech was for the protection of "unsafe" speech so people could say unpopular, untrue, or offensive speech without any actual repercussions.
Free Speech was never meant to shield people from repercussions of knowingly making untrue statements.
Nonsense, free speech never required a pass through the fact checkers.
Sure, you can say it, but you're not protected from repercussions for knowingly spreading lies.

Ghostmaker

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #109 on: January 22, 2021, 08:20:31 AM »

I don't have answers. I'm honestly asking if anyone has a solution. We're dealing with people who have straightforward said their goal is infringement on our civil liberites. I believe that free speech, even speech I abhor, is very important. But when the narrative is twisted and it becomes impossible to counter their bad speech because they control the public square, then there's no way to legally fight back.

Yes, the choice is to stop using their service, and find your own public square or milk crate to speak from.
Until your milk crate is taken away and you are escorted from the public square you rented.

I will note, though, that part of Parler's lawsuit is that AWS breached contract, giving them no time to rectify any situation. They're saying they should've had 30 days from notice of issue; Amazon is saying 'we can shut it down when we like'.

If Parler actually signed a contract giving AWS a blank check on shutting them down, then they're boned.

GameDaddy

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #110 on: January 22, 2021, 08:41:03 AM »
Sure, you can say it, but you're not protected from repercussions for knowingly spreading lies.

Yes, this is exactly what free speech is. It is not my responsibility to determine whether a statement is true or not. It is not my job to control you, or decide what is true for you. It is up to you, ...to use your mind, your mental faculties, to determine whether or not what I say is true or right. You must know the difference between right and wrong, and must act upon that knowledge without regard to whether what I say is true or not.

This is literally the first amendment to the Constitution, and what makes us different, and better from Europe, and every other country on the planet, to wit:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of.
Here in the United States, you are free to follow any religion you like, or not, as you wish. If you don't like any of the religions that are already around, you are free to start your own.

Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.

This is pretty simple... If the government can't make any laws to inhibit free speech, what makes you think it is ok for you to do so privately?... This goes for the press too, by the way. They are not obligated, in any way, to speak the truth. It's up to you as an individual to determine whether they are full of bullshit or not, and act accordingly.

Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
This is very clear, The Drumpf can make speeches all day long to his retarded followers to fight the injustice that is government, and make no mistake, the American government is so incompetent that it should be viewed as an injustice and affront to the common people. Drumpfs people have every right to get their bullhorns out and march down Pennsylvania avenue and call upon the lawmakers to redress perceived wrongs in the government. If I'm not mistaken, they just wanted a transparent election process where there are safegaurds in place to ensure that voting is fair.

Now this is something that I have personally wanted since the year 2000, when the presidential election was compromised by the State of Florida. There the vote was so close, that a recount was ordered. The Republicans at that time, had the Courts intervene, and stopped the recount before it was completed, short-circuiting the election process and unfairly awarding the Republicans the presidency, as well as a majority in the Senate.

This elections, the Courts wisely chose to not interfere in the election process, throwing out every single case but one, from Drumfs challenge.  The courts returned the responsibility directly back to the American people, and to the individual states, to build a more transparent and fair system to conduct elections. The Drumf was not wrong, their are a lot of irregularities in the election process, as well as some clear cases of voter disenfranchisement while the voting was occurring.during this last election. Never mind that the Republican party has been practicing voter disenfranchisement before the elections, ...for at least, the last twenty years.  This last election, the Courts just gave them back, what they have been handing out to the American people for the last two decades.

Where Drumfs supporters crossed a clear line though, is when they no longer peaceably protested. That would be, when they forcibly broke into the Capitol, and disrupted the Congress that was in session, that they had already duly elected to conduct their business for them, and then forcibly interfered with the election as it was occurring. For the record, the changes to ensure a fair election process has to occur at the local and state level, becuase that is what the courts decided.

Also, it's not on Drumf if they actually throw themselves off a cliff, if he tells his followers to throw themselves off a cliff. If they are too stupid to know they would actually die, then they are actually doing us a favor by doing so, at least according to Darwin's Law. They are helping all of us, by naturally self-selecting and improving the gene pool.

Ditto that if he is telling them to break the law, and they actually listen. They should all be arrested and thrown in jail for disrupting the peace.

Also just so you know, peaceful protest, ...doesn't really work. It's a complete waste of time and resources. Here is an example of the peaceful protest march of Iranian Women, marching for their right to dress as they prefer, and demanding equal rights.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/iran-women-revolution-hijab-protests-ayatollah-khomeini-a8251686.html
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 08:51:17 AM by GameDaddy »
Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

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GameDaddy

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #111 on: January 22, 2021, 08:44:07 AM »
If Parler actually signed a contract giving AWS a blank check on shutting them down, then they're boned.

They are boned, because that is the only kind of contract that Amazon provides. In fact moved all of my web servers off of Amazon back in late 2019, early 2020 because of exactly this reason, and more. I didn't want any of my websites to be vulnerable to an arbitrary political decision.
Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

~ Dave Arneson

Ghostmaker

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #112 on: January 22, 2021, 09:39:59 AM »
Now this is something that I have personally wanted since the year 2000, when the presidential election was compromised by the State of Florida. There the vote was so close, that a recount was ordered. The Republicans at that time, had the Courts intervene, and stopped the recount before it was completed, short-circuiting the election process and unfairly awarding the Republicans the presidency, as well as a majority in the Senate.
I kinda disagree on your analysis of this, as there were repeated recounts, and Florida's election laws specifically stated 'you must turn in your papers on X date'. The Democrats wanted to ignore that and keep recounting until Gore won Florida.

Quote
This elections, the Courts wisely chose to not interfere in the election process, throwing out every single case but one, from Drumfs challenge.  The courts returned the responsibility directly back to the American people, and to the individual states, to build a more transparent and fair system to conduct elections. The Drumf was not wrong, their are a lot of irregularities in the election process, as well as some clear cases of voter disenfranchisement while the voting was occurring.during this last election. Never mind that the Republican party has been practicing voter disenfranchisement before the elections, ...for at least, the last twenty years.  This last election, the Courts just gave them back, what they have been handing out to the American people for the last two decades.
Which is unintentionally hilarious, as it's the same 'punt' they used to avoid dealing with the ACA. 'It's not our job to determine when laws are completely fucking useless'. Ooooo-kay...

Quote
Where Drumfs supporters crossed a clear line though, is when they no longer peaceably protested. That would be, when they forcibly broke into the Capitol, and disrupted the Congress that was in session, that they had already duly elected to conduct their business for them, and then forcibly interfered with the election as it was occurring. For the record, the changes to ensure a fair election process has to occur at the local and state level, becuase that is what the courts decided.
Completely agree, although -- as has been stated before -- the pearl clutching and sniveling looks more than a little hypocritical considering what had transpired over the last year.

Let this be a lesson: legitimizing political violence is a bad idea, and sooner or later the other side starts using it.

Quote
Also just so you know, peaceful protest, ...doesn't really work. It's a complete waste of time and resources. Here is an example of the peaceful protest march of Iranian Women, marching for their right to dress as they prefer, and demanding equal rights.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/iran-women-revolution-hijab-protests-ayatollah-khomeini-a8251686.html
Mike Vanderboegh (an irascible, cranky pro-2A blogger and activist) once opined that if Mahatma Gandhi had tried his civil disobedience tactics on the Imperial Japanese (circa WW2), his bayoneted and beheaded corpse would've been found floating down the Ganges River along with his followers. The tactics work with a people and government who prefer peaceful resolution and are willing to listen, as well as having a moral center that abides by such. Iran does not have that. Britain did, hence why Gandhi got away with it.


GameDaddy

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #113 on: January 22, 2021, 10:12:27 AM »
I kinda disagree on your analysis of this, as there were repeated recounts, and Florida's election laws specifically stated 'you must turn in your papers on X date'. The Democrats wanted to ignore that and keep recounting until Gore won Florida.

Mike Vanderboegh (an irascible, cranky pro-2A blogger and activist) once opined that if Mahatma Gandhi had tried his civil disobedience tactics on the Imperial Japanese (circa WW2), his bayoneted and beheaded corpse would've been found floating down the Ganges River along with his followers. The tactics work with a people and government who prefer peaceful resolution and are willing to listen, as well as having a moral center that abides by such. Iran does not have that. Britain did, hence why Gandhi got away with it.

What the Florida law should have stated was "Once the vote recount is complete, you must turn in the results of your recount within 24 hours.". It doesn't do any good to have a vote recount, unless all the votes are duly counted, ...regardless of how long that takes. Anything less is just throwing the election in favor of the just the votes that were turned in and counted early. How is that, in any way, just or fair? Does that make the election complete?

That's an interesting point on what you make about peaceful protests. Peaceful protests worked with Martin Luther King back in 1963. When he marched on Washington, he brought about a million people with him (literally), and while not trespassing on Capitol property, a sea of people made it know to the Congress that they wished for civil rights to be implemented. This went directly against what the Goldwater Republicans were trying to accomplish, and they had to drive through the masses after they were finished with their business in Congress at the end of the day. I'm certain the impression was made, with implications for what would happen to Congress if they failed to execute the will of the people.

The Drumpf did it wrong, of course. He didn't need twenty-five thousand, along with a handful of ridiculous cosplayers to storm Capitol Hill. He needed about two and a half million Americans to stand up for what is right. They voted, but actually didn't show up when called out. And all they really needed to do was surround the Capitol, and let Congress know what the will of the people looks like. That would have made for a very interesting day. 

Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

~ Dave Arneson

Pat

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #114 on: January 22, 2021, 11:51:27 AM »
Free Speech was for the protection of "unsafe" speech so people could say unpopular, untrue, or offensive speech without any actual repercussions.
Free Speech was never meant to shield people from repercussions of knowingly making untrue statements.
Nonsense, free speech never required a pass through the fact checkers.
Sure, you can say it, but you're not protected from repercussions for knowingly spreading lies.
Yes, you are. That's exactly how free speech works.

Pat

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #115 on: January 22, 2021, 12:01:43 PM »
I will note, though, that part of Parler's lawsuit is that AWS breached contract, giving them no time to rectify any situation. They're saying they should've had 30 days from notice of issue; Amazon is saying 'we can shut it down when we like'.

If Parler actually signed a contract giving AWS a blank check on shutting them down, then they're boned.
Contract law is fucked. Nobody "signs" anything with big companies anymore. You just click the box that you've read their terms of service. They can put anything they want in there, update it whenever, and clearly nobody really cares because TOS are never a factor in reviews. Almost nobody ever reads them, and even those who do generally don't know what it means anyway.

The only real exception is peer-to-peer business arrangements, where lawyers and execs hash out terms on roughly equal footing. But if you're a tiny company against a giant, or an end user against anyone, there's zero opportunity for negotiation.

jhkim

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #116 on: January 22, 2021, 12:03:37 PM »
Also just so you know, peaceful protest, ...doesn't really work. It's a complete waste of time and resources. Here is an example of the peaceful protest march of Iranian Women, marching for their right to dress as they prefer, and demanding equal rights.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/iran-women-revolution-hijab-protests-ayatollah-khomeini-a8251686.html
Mike Vanderboegh (an irascible, cranky pro-2A blogger and activist) once opined that if Mahatma Gandhi had tried his civil disobedience tactics on the Imperial Japanese (circa WW2), his bayoneted and beheaded corpse would've been found floating down the Ganges River along with his followers. The tactics work with a people and government who prefer peaceful resolution and are willing to listen, as well as having a moral center that abides by such. Iran does not have that. Britain did, hence why Gandhi got away with it.

Yeah, and if Martin Luther King Jr had tried civil disobedience in a violent country, he would have ended up shot in the head. Except... that's how he did end up. But killing him didn't end the movement that he supported. His killing reinforced the idea that his opponents were wrong.

Earlier in history, Christianity has thousands of peaceful martyrs who were killed by violent rulers. But creating martyrs didn't end Christianity as a religion -- it made the rulers even less popular, and often Christianity flourished in the face of this opposition.

Peaceful protest isn't an automatic win - but neither is violent revolution. Both have had some successes and a lot of failures.

Ghostmaker

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #117 on: January 22, 2021, 12:11:34 PM »

Yeah, and if Martin Luther King Jr had tried civil disobedience in a violent country, he would have ended up shot in the head. Except... that's how he did end up. But killing him didn't end the movement that he supported. His killing reinforced the idea that his opponents were wrong.

Earlier in history, Christianity has thousands of peaceful martyrs who were killed by violent rulers. But creating martyrs didn't end Christianity as a religion -- it made the rulers even less popular, and often Christianity flourished in the face of this opposition.

Peaceful protest isn't an automatic win - but neither is violent revolution. Both have had some successes and a lot of failures.
Are you seriously equating one asshole bigot with a rifle to, oh, say, the repression seen at Tianamen Square? There's a bit of difference.

Pat

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #118 on: January 22, 2021, 12:39:28 PM »
Peaceful protest isn't an automatic win - but neither is violent revolution. Both have had some successes and a lot of failures.
On the other hand, mostly peaceful protests have a 100% success rate.

Shasarak

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #119 on: January 22, 2021, 03:17:21 PM »
If Parler actually signed a contract giving AWS a blank check on shutting them down, then they're boned.

They did not sign a blank check contract which is why Parler is suing Amazon for breach of contract.

Amazons defence?  Orange man bad.
"There can be no middle ground with bigots. Bigots want to deny the rights and livelihood of people different from them. They want them to cease existing, either by going underground or by murdering them. There is no "let's meet in the middle" with that. To suggest there can be is ignorance" RPGNet