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Author Topic: These FIVE men control your freedom  (Read 3778 times)

jhkim

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #120 on: January 22, 2021, 03:58:48 PM »
Yeah, and if Martin Luther King Jr had tried civil disobedience in a violent country, he would have ended up shot in the head. Except... that's how he did end up. But killing him didn't end the movement that he supported. His killing reinforced the idea that his opponents were wrong.

Earlier in history, Christianity has thousands of peaceful martyrs who were killed by violent rulers. But creating martyrs didn't end Christianity as a religion -- it made the rulers even less popular, and often Christianity flourished in the face of this opposition.

Peaceful protest isn't an automatic win - but neither is violent revolution. Both have had some successes and a lot of failures.

Are you seriously equating one asshole bigot with a rifle to, oh, say, the repression seen at Tianamen Square? There's a bit of difference.

I'm not saying they are the same. But the point is that the use of violence doesn't necessarily undo non-violent resistance. If Ghandi had been killed, that wouldn't have meant that his cause didn't work. He might well have had more effect as a martyr than as a living figure.

I cited Christian martyrs who were killed by the thousands at times. In modern times, the Soviet Union was extremely brutal - but they were toppled by non-violent means.

HappyDaze

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #121 on: January 22, 2021, 05:51:47 PM »
Free Speech was for the protection of "unsafe" speech so people could say unpopular, untrue, or offensive speech without any actual repercussions.
Free Speech was never meant to shield people from repercussions of knowingly making untrue statements.
Nonsense, free speech never required a pass through the fact checkers.
Sure, you can say it, but you're not protected from repercussions for knowingly spreading lies.
Yes, you are. That's exactly how free speech works.
You're a fucking idiot. Go lie about being a lawyer/doctor and then charge someone for legal/medical advice and try and claim it was "free speech" to do so. There's also slander and libel for a reason, and free speech again doesn't hold up when you're knowingly spreading false information. What a dumb motherfucker you are.

EOTB

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #122 on: January 22, 2021, 06:18:11 PM »
When others talk about free speech, my answer includes fraud as a counterpoint
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jhkim

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #123 on: January 22, 2021, 06:29:59 PM »
Sure, you can say it, but you're not protected from repercussions for knowingly spreading lies.
Yes, you are. That's exactly how free speech works.
You're a fucking idiot. Go lie about being a lawyer/doctor and then charge someone for legal/medical advice and try and claim it was "free speech" to do so. There's also slander and libel for a reason, and free speech again doesn't hold up when you're knowingly spreading false information. What a dumb motherfucker you are.

This is talking past each other. There are specific forms of speech that are not covered under free speech - like libel, slander, false advertising, fraud, etc. However, these are all limited cases -- they are judged by specific criteria other than just lying or not.

There is no general exception to free speech for knowingly spreading lies.

That said, the issue of "repercussions" is also vague - and free speech allows some kinds of repercussions. Free speech might allow someone to tell lies - but it also allows another person to call them a liar and ruin their reputation.

moonsweeper

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #124 on: January 22, 2021, 06:33:40 PM »
Free Speech was for the protection of "unsafe" speech so people could say unpopular, untrue, or offensive speech without any actual repercussions.
Free Speech was never meant to shield people from repercussions of knowingly making untrue statements.
Nonsense, free speech never required a pass through the fact checkers.
Sure, you can say it, but you're not protected from repercussions for knowingly spreading lies.
Yes, you are. That's exactly how free speech works.
You're a fucking idiot. Go lie about being a lawyer/doctor and then charge someone for legal/medical advice and try and claim it was "free speech" to do so. There's also slander and libel for a reason, and free speech again doesn't hold up when you're knowingly spreading false information. What a dumb motherfucker you are.

That is why there is a legal standard for fraud, libel, and slander.
But just plain 'generic' lying that does not meet those terms is indeed 'free speech.'

edit : *ninja'd by jhkim*
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 06:35:37 PM by moonsweeper »
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Pat

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #125 on: January 22, 2021, 07:44:07 PM »
Free Speech was for the protection of "unsafe" speech so people could say unpopular, untrue, or offensive speech without any actual repercussions.
Free Speech was never meant to shield people from repercussions of knowingly making untrue statements.
Nonsense, free speech never required a pass through the fact checkers.
Sure, you can say it, but you're not protected from repercussions for knowingly spreading lies.
Yes, you are. That's exactly how free speech works.
You're a fucking idiot. Go lie about being a lawyer/doctor and then charge someone for legal/medical advice and try and claim it was "free speech" to do so. There's also slander and libel for a reason, and free speech again doesn't hold up when you're knowingly spreading false information. What a dumb motherfucker you are.
You repeatedly made broad, absolute claims that free speech does not protect against lying. Those are false statements. Its whole point is to protect speech, including many lies. There are certainly exceptions, like slander and libel, crying fire in a movie theater, and so on[1]; but they're narrow, carefully circumscribed, and don't prove that lies are not protected. To support what you said, you need to prove that lying is never covered under free speech. Which you can't, because that's simply not true. For instance, look up the case of the guy who claimed he won the medal of honor, when he didn't. There was even an explicit law that made it illegal (the Stolen Valor Act), and they went after him in court. But he won, and that part of the law was overthrown, because the Supreme Court ruled that his right of freedom of speech, even when lying about something that huge majorities of people find incredibly distasteful, was protected.

tl;dr You're a fucking idiot.

[1] But not the part about being a doctor. If you want to go to a bar, and say you're a doctor to get someone to sleep with you? It's protected. The legal concept you're thinking of is practicing medicine without a license, which is prohibiting an act. It's not a form of speech. Or if it involves conning someone of their money, it's fraud. Which is another narrow exception.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 07:56:24 PM by Pat »

Kyle Aaron

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2021, 09:49:56 PM »
A friend tells me Antifa accounts have been suspended from Twitter, too. I did a websearch on this, and this NY Post article came up. The article carries the implications of what the ctrl-left like to call Whataboutism (which is only a sin when the alt-right do it), but it appears to be true - some antifa bookshop/training centre's account has been suspended at time of this posting.

I do like that on the account of another anarchist group reporting this, only those the account follows can post. "Anarchy! No, not like that..."

The friend cheekily posted this news to an rpg.net thread discussing Drumpf's twitter ban, her post was removed and she was given a warning.

As well, the Jim Rutt Show podcast has had its page removed from Facebook at time of this writing. I find it hard to imagine what in his podcasts anyone could take offence to, presumably Rutt said something offensive at some point, as he notes on Twitter that it may be because his FB podcast page was connected to his personal account.

I think it's interesting news, though obviously the ctrl-left will go "la la la I can't hear you!" If the social media giants ban everyone "inciting violence" regardless of ideology, that's going to have implications for future civil resistance groups of all kinds. As wikipedia says, the role of social media in the Arab Spring is debated, but if nothing else it was a means of communication. How about future Colour Revolutions? Hong Kong? If the PRC invaded and occupied Taiwan, and the Taiwanese used social media to urge resistance against the invasion, would they be banned for "inciting violence"?

These are difficult issues even if you're genuinely trying to be fair and impartial.
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Snowman0147

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Re: These FIVE men control your freedom
« Reply #127 on: January 22, 2021, 10:15:51 PM »
First...  Fuck off to the hell of your own making you piece of shit.

Secondly of all the years the far left had been calling for censoring the right and canceling out of society you now want help.  Bitch the only hypocrite is you useful idiot.  Conservatives and free thinkers warned your sorry ass for years and you did nothing to change that.  You just laughed and cheered as you watch people you don't like get banned for having a opinion you disagreed with. 

You help create this shit so you end it yourself.  I stay comfortably in my alt tech sites and if you dare visit the people you helped ban will just gatekeep you out.