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Author Topic: The Virtues of D20  (Read 2918 times)

RPGPundit

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The Virtues of D20
« on: October 02, 2006, 03:16:13 PM »
D20 is the ultimate exercise in adaptability. If you think of D20 as just "D&D 3.5" then you are missing the point entirely.  D20 is D&D, Star Wars, Spycraft, Mutants and Mastermines, Call of Cthulhu, True 20, D20 modern, Traveller, and so much more.
 
You can modify the system and choose from this vast selection of materials to give you inspiration for whatever type of campaign you choose to run.  And while D&D complicates things excessively these days, with uberfeats, and uberprestige classes, at its core D20 is just a very simple base mechanic that covers all necessities.

The most purified distilled form of this simple system is exemplified in True 20.  Here is D20 stripped of all its "D&Disms", and of anything else that is a holdover to tradition or of unneeded complexity.  From that skeleton you can then add and modify to create whatever you like.
 
In other words, D20 is the game you create.  If you just go with what's provided in official D&D rules, then you'll end up with D&D, sure, and at the moment that's becoming a less and less pleasing option. But the point of D20 is that YOU DON'T HAVE TO end up with D&D.
 
Don't like hit points? Change them; you have a half-dozen options so far for how to change the mechanic, all that have been in official published d20 products.
Don't like classes? change them. True 20 boils everything down to three classes. Mutants and Masterminds doesn't have any class at all. CoC D20 is essentially classless too.
 
Want to add complexity? That's easy too. Check out D20 Traveller's combat system, among others.

So D20 is basically "one system to rule them all", but not in the sense of GURPS where the understanding of "system" is that you try to jam the same set of rules into any power level or setting context. Rather, its a set of modular rules that you wildly vary and adapt to fit your specific setting or campaign needs.
 
Its not really one game. Its a design philosophy and a couple of basic conventions.
To say that True 20 and Traveller are the "same game", or that Call of Cthulhu d20 and Spycraft are the "same game" is pretty much absurd.   There is more difference between these games than there is between 1st and 2nd edition of WFRP, or than there is between any two White Wolf games.

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kryyst

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2006, 04:04:51 PM »
So what.   At it's base value D20 is roll a d20.  That's not a mechanic that's a description of a Die.  You can take any system and start adapting it by ripping out huge chunks and inserting others.  But there comes a time when doing so means you no longer have the original system you started with.  It also doesn't mean that changes to said system will be successful and playable just because all A's are B's doesn't mean all B's are A's.
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ColonelHardisson

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2006, 04:38:43 PM »
Quote from: kryyst
But there comes a time when doing so means you no longer have the original system you started with.  It also doesn't mean that changes to said system will be successful and playable just because all A's are B's doesn't mean all B's are A's.


So far, there have been a lot of successes, covering a wide range of genres and playing styles. This indicates a lot of people feel the system is adaptable enough for them. I've yet to see a d20 or d20-based OGL game that was essentially different from baseline d20, to the point one couldn't port stuff from one to the other.
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4e definitely has an Old School feel. If you disagree, cool. I won't throw any hyperbole out to prove the point.

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2006, 10:14:03 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
D20 is the ultimate exercise in adaptability.


Nope, that's Fudge. :D
In order to qualify as a roleplaying game, a game design must feature:

1. A traditional player/GM relationship.
2. No set story or plot.
3. No live action aspect.
4. No win conditions.

Don't like it? Too bad.

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2006, 11:35:25 PM »
Oh yea, Fudge.

The best game ever half-written.

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2006, 12:55:02 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
Its not really one game. Its a design philosophy and a couple of basic conventions.

So what are these? What keeps D20 from being BRP (or vice-versa)?

Or another way of getting at the same question: what is it about D20 that makes it good (aside from "flexibility)?

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2006, 01:04:01 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
Oh yea, Fudge.

The best game ever half-written.

RPGPundit


Perfect for those of us who've never used a game as-written. :)
In order to qualify as a roleplaying game, a game design must feature:

1. A traditional player/GM relationship.
2. No set story or plot.
3. No live action aspect.
4. No win conditions.

Don't like it? Too bad.

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2006, 05:17:27 AM »
Well, as to saying good things about d20, from reading that 1001 Sf weapons guide I'd have to say I like the idea of each weapon being given a concealability rating to show how hard/easy it is to conceal, plus I really like the idea of giving a bacis guide as to how hard it is to break a particular item. I like gurps better than d20 but wish it had those features.

As to another good thing about d20, well at least they haven't done Wraethu d20, but I think it migh be funny if they did, just so we could run a pool on what color pundy would turn when he saw it.:D
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kryyst

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2006, 08:32:22 AM »
Quote from: ColonelHardisson
So far, there have been a lot of successes, covering a wide range of genres and playing styles. This indicates a lot of people feel the system is adaptable enough for them. I've yet to see a d20 or d20-based OGL game that was essentially different from baseline d20, to the point one couldn't port stuff from one to the other.


There have been a lot of successes in the minds eye of rabbid D20 fanboys.  Just taking D20 and calling it Warhammer D20 doesn't mean you've completed a successful conversion.  You are still playing D20.  The whole point of other games is that the mechanics create a distinct feeling when interacting with that world.  Tri-Stat Silver Age Sentinals is a very different game in play then D20 Silver Age Sentinals.  The same way that D20 Spycraft is not Top Secret SI.

Poeple like D20 good for them.  I even like D20.  But that doesn't mean that D20 is some generic system that can be used and abused and turned into something else.  I've seen the bastardized spawn of those things and they don't work.  For D20 to work and remain playable it's still got to contain a good fixture of the trapping of the Core D20 rules.  Classes, Levels, Skills, Feats etc... Every D20 game has them it's what makes D20 - D20.  For people that aren't sold on the leveling scheme of D20, it's still undefinable hit point concepts, it's ridiculous varriablity and the min/maxer mechanics that it thrives in we play other games.
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ColonelHardisson

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2006, 08:53:29 AM »
Quote from: kryyst
There have been a lot of successes in the minds eye of rabbid D20 fanboys.


Trotting out this kind of argument has always been an indicator that there isn't much of substance to the argument. It's way too easy to call someone a fanboy if they're positive about something one doesn't like. I could just as easily say you're a ravening d20 hater, despite you saying you like d20.

Quote from: kryyst
Just taking D20 and calling it Warhammer D20 doesn't mean you've completed a successful conversion.  You are still playing D20.


The new Warhammer isn't d20.

Quote from: kryyst
The whole point of other games is that the mechanics create a distinct feeling when interacting with that world.  Tri-Stat Silver Age Sentinals is a very different game in play then D20 Silver Age Sentinals.  The same way that D20 Spycraft is not Top Secret SI.


OK. And? This is all a matter of taste. I've played plenty of other games over the years. I haven't found any reason to rail against using this system or that one for a given setting. I might prefer a different system for a given setting, but I wouldn't definitively say the system being used is unsuitable.

Quote from: kryyst
Poeple like D20 good for them.  I even like D20.  But that doesn't mean that D20 is some generic system that can be used and abused and turned into something else.  I've seen the bastardized spawn of those things and they don't work.


Concrete examples would help here.

Quote from: kryyst
For D20 to work and remain playable it's still got to contain a good fixture of the trapping of the Core D20 rules.  Classes, Levels, Skills, Feats etc... Every D20 game has them it's what makes D20 - D20.  For people that aren't sold on the leveling scheme of D20, it's still undefinable hit point concepts, it's ridiculous varriablity and the min/maxer mechanics that it thrives in we play other games.


OK, I'll buy that. But so what? There have been plenty of examples of d20 being used very well to bring certain genres or licenses to RPGs. Black Company, Conan, Babylon 5, d20 Modern, d20 Future, Mutants and Masterminds...so they use d20 as the core mechanic. Is that bad? What would make another system any better to use for these?  You might say that d20 was crowbarred into the genre/license, but I can look at them and say they work great, that levels and classes and hit points are fantastic for them (OK, so no hit points in M&M). Use another system, or create a new one whole cloth (which doesn't always guarantee the game is all that great), and I might say it sucks, it doesn't fit the setting or genre at all. Or, hell, I might just say that system works just as well. So it's all subjective.
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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2006, 03:10:20 PM »
Quote from: kryyst
There have been a lot of successes in the minds eye of rabbid D20 fanboys.    


This is only true if your definition of "rabbid (sic) D20 fanboys" would happen to be "the vast majority of the RPG-playing hobby".

I would save the term "rabid" to refer to those who try to claim that D20 is somehow a failure in the face of massive, massive evidence to the contrary.

Quote
For people that aren't sold on the leveling scheme of D20, it's still undefinable hit point concepts, it's ridiculous varriablity and the min/maxer mechanics that it thrives in we play other games.


So you're saying that because you, personally, would never want to play a game that was even remotely like D20, all D20 conversions of other games and D20's take on other genres are failures?

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2006, 03:20:58 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit



So you're saying that because you, personally, would never want to play a game that was even remotely like D20, all D20 conversions of other games and D20's take on other genres are failures?

RPGPundit


I hope not. True20, M&M, Spycraft, etc... have all been well spoken of that I've seen, and I personally love both DnD and True20. Since I know I'm not stupid, rabid, deluded, or biased, I know these games can't be bad games. True, tastes vary, but D20 has pretty good sales numbers, a huge following within the hobby, and has produced games in mulitple genres that many of our peers really seem to enjoy playing, if what they say on message boards can be believed. To dispute these facts would seem to me to be the height of arrogance. It would be tantamount to saying the majority of the people involved in a hobby known for attracting a fairly intelligent crowd are somehow misguided or stupid. I'd like to think Kryyst isn't that arrogant.
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kryyst

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2006, 03:27:41 PM »
Quote from: ColonelHardisson
Trotting out this kind of argument has always been an indicator that there isn't much of substance to the argument. It's way too easy to call someone a fanboy if they're positive about something one doesn't like. I could just as easily say you're a ravenin d20 hater, despite you saying you like d20.


But it's fun to call someone a fanboy because then whatever you say I can just hand wave and point screaming fanboy - fanboy.  Where this stems from is seeing - all over the net - nigh endless threads devoted to converting every genre and setting to D20.  I make the distinction between genre and setting because it's extremely important when talking about converting a game from one system to another.  

Quote
The new Warhammer isn't d20.


So you miss the point.  Taking D20 and converting it to Warhammer by adding in Skaven, maybe changing all the levels to various careers and removing hit points in favor of some other hacked on system.  Does not mean you're now playing D20 Warhammer.  Warhammer is more then the setting elements it's a genre as well which is what is so often missed by people who try and convert one set of mechanics to another.  This isn't isolated to D20 but holds true for most conversions.  Trying to convert Warhammer to D20, Champions, Shadowun, Rolemaster - whatever.  It's going to be Warhammer in title only.  Much like a Ferrari kit car built on a Fiero.

Quote

OK. And? This is all a matter of taste. I've played plenty of other games over the years. I haven't found any reason to rail against using this system or that one for a given setting. I might prefer a different system for a given setting, but I wouldn't definitively say the system being used is unsuitable.


Of course it's a mater of taste.  I'm not railing against playing D20.  Though I am railing against this dire cause to take one system - whatever the system - and trying to make it something it was never intended or designed to be.  You may like to eat salad every day of the week, sure you may put on french, itallian or ceaser dressing on for spice, but it's still salad.   I prefer variety.  I'd much - much rather learn rules that fit within a given setting/genre then try try and bastardize some other mechanic to get a shell of something that well sorta kinda works.



Quote
Concrete examples would help here.


Again it's a mater of taste...but to that end D20 Diablo, D20 Everquest, D20 Star Wars on the published side.  They don't work because they are either not really giving you something new in the case of Diablo or Everquest or in the case of Star Wars not working at all.  There are elements of the Star Wars game that are fine but the leveling doesn't make sense in relation to the material.  Force powers are broken - terribly.  Combat certain doesn't fit the cinematic feel that Star Wars portrays.  So it just doesn't work.

Quote

OK, I'll buy that. But so what? There have been plenty of examples of d20 being used very well to bring certain genres or licenses to RPGs. Black Company, Conan, Babylon 5, d20 Modern, d20 Future, Mutants and Masterminds...so they use d20 as the core mechanic. Is that bad? What would make another system any better to use for these?  You might say that d20 was crowbarred into the genre/license, but I can look at them and say they work great, that levels and classes and hit points are fantastic for them (OK, so no hit points in M&M). Use another system, or create a new one whole cloth (which doesn't always guarantee the game is all that great), and I might say it sucks, it doesn't fit the setting or genre at all. Or, hell, I might just say that system works just as well. So it's all subjective.


Again how much of a game do you change before it's no longer D20?   Also what works doesn't mean it works well.  I like some aspects of Conan D20 and as far as D20 goes it's a great product.  But doing the Conan setting in Warhammer or Riddle of Steel would be even more successful in capturing the feeling of the original theme.  D20 Modern, D20 Future are good modifications to D20.

M&M much like True20 I start to question how much of D20 is really left in those games as they are starting to approach being a new game of their own.
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ColonelHardisson

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2006, 03:52:11 PM »
Quote from: kryyst
But it's fun to call someone a fanboy because then whatever you say I can just hand wave and point screaming fanboy - fanboy.  Where this stems from is seeing - all over the net - nigh endless threads devoted to converting every genre and setting to D20.  I make the distinction between genre and setting because it's extremely important when talking about converting a game from one system to another.


Well...OK.

Quote from: kryyst
So you miss the point.


Perhaps, but your point was not very clearly stated.

Quote from: kryyst
Taking D20 and converting it to Warhammer by adding in Skaven, maybe changing all the levels to various careers and removing hit points in favor of some other hacked on system.  Does not mean you're now playing D20 Warhammer.  Warhammer is more then the setting elements it's a genre as well which is what is so often missed by people who try and convert one set of mechanics to another.  This isn't isolated to D20 but holds true for most conversions.  Trying to convert Warhammer to D20, Champions, Shadowun, Rolemaster - whatever.  It's going to be Warhammer in title only.  Much like a Ferrari kit car built on a Fiero.


I don't dispute that. I never have. Matter of fact, I've always thought it was pointless to try to convert game mechanics to another game, unless it was something easily portable. I've said this quite often.

Quote from: kryyst
Of course it's a mater of taste.  I'm not railing against playing D20.  Though I am railing against this dire cause to take one system - whatever the system - and trying to make it something it was never intended or designed to be.  You may like to eat salad every day of the week, sure you may put on french, itallian or ceaser dressing on for spice, but it's still salad.   I prefer variety.  I'd much - much rather learn rules that fit within a given setting/genre then try try and bastardize some other mechanic to get a shell of something that well sorta kinda works.


You seem to think that just because a game is designed from the ground up for a given setting or license that it is inherently good or superior. That's simply not true. If a game system has proven successful for a certain genre, it doesn't seem like a huge leap to assume it will be useful for a given example of that genre. This has proven true with d20, which has been successful for the fantasy genre. Examples abound of successful fantasy d20 games - the ones I mentioned above (Black Company, etc.) and ones like Iron Heroes. You seem to dismiss my examples by your "sorta kinda" statement, but there are an awful lot of people who think those games work.

Regarding your salad analogy...to each his own. Personally, I see no need to reinvent the fuckin' wheel everytime I want to take a drive.

Quote from: kryyst
Again it's a mater of taste...but to that end D20 Diablo, D20 Everquest, D20 Star Wars on the published side.  They don't work because they are either not really giving you something new in the case of Diablo or Everquest or in the case of Star Wars not working at all.  There are elements of the Star Wars game that are fine but the leveling doesn't make sense in relation to the material.  Force powers are broken - terribly.  Combat certain doesn't fit the cinematic feel that Star Wars portrays.  So it just doesn't work.


You realize it's pointless to assert that a game doesn't fit what you feel to be the "feel" of the source material. That's just your own personal assessement, which holds true only for you. Star Wars d20 may not be your cup of tea, but a lot of people like it. WEG apparently didn't set the world on fire with their d6 version, either, but I acknowledge a lot of people liked it, too. So you have two groups of people who feel their chosen game is the proper one to model the source material.

Quote from: kryyst
Again how much of a game do you change before it's no longer D20?   Also what works doesn't mean it works well.  I like some aspects of Conan D20 and as far as D20 goes it's a great product.  But doing the Conan setting in Warhammer or Riddle of Steel would be even more successful in capturing the feeling of the original theme.


I doubt it. Warhammer - a fine game - or Riddle of Steel might be able to model Hyboria as well as the current d20 game, but they wouldn't be better at it. Hell, you might as well say RuneQuest would do the job. It could, really. But so? The companies that own Warhammer, Riddle of Steel, or RQ didn't try to get the Conan license.  

Quote from: kryyst
D20 Modern, D20 Future are good modifications to D20.

M&M much like True20 I start to question how much of D20 is really left in those games as they are starting to approach being a new game of their own.


What's the problem with that? Apparently d20 strikes a chord with people as being a flexible, robust game. If certain designers like aspects of the game and decide to add what they feel are improvements, I don't see what the trouble is. Chaosium's BRP system was used by them for all manner of games, from Call of Cthulhu to Pendragon to Elric to Ringworld. Each of them has certain elements that differ from the other iterations of the BRP system. GURPS you have the same situation. There just isn't a problem here.
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4e definitely has an Old School feel. If you disagree, cool. I won't throw any hyperbole out to prove the point.

kryyst

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2006, 06:09:30 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
This is only true if your definition of "rabbid (sic) D20 fanboys" would happen to be "the vast majority of the RPG-playing hobby".

I would save the term "rabid" to refer to those who try to claim that D20 is somehow a failure in the face of massive, massive evidence to the contrary.


Popularity doesn't equate quality.   Which isn't to say D20 doesn't have good qualities about it - I've never dissputed that.  Nore have I claimed it to be a failure - though many, many of it's offshoot product lines have failed.  The problem with D20 is this insanity that most of us have to one extreme or the other to either promote or bash it.  

I admit I freely fall into the bash it camp. I don't like D20.  It has inherrint flaws that carry with it regardless of what's been done to the mechanics.  I think True20 is a good book - but only in comparisson to other D20 games.  Is D20 adaptable?  No doubt about it.  But is it more adaptable then other systems?  Well no.  It has more out there for it becuase of volume but quantiy never equates quality.  


Quote

So you're saying that because you, personally, would never want to play a game that was even remotely like D20, all D20 conversions of other games and D20's take on other genres are failures?


Nope - but I'm not surprised you read it that way.
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