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Author Topic: The Virtues of D20  (Read 2919 times)

Sigmund

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2006, 06:15:48 PM »
Quote from: kryyst
I think True20 is a good book - but only in comparisson to other D20 games.


Once again, opinion. My opinion is True20 is a very good system compared to any I've ever seen. For what I like and want to do with a game, True20 is just about perfect.... much better than HERO, GURPS, BRP, DnD 3.5, FUDGE, FATE, whatever. Does that make it the greatest game EVAR? Yes and no. Greatest inherently, probably not. Greatest to me... absolutely. You keep mistaking your opinion for gospel. I assure you, it's not.
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kryyst

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2006, 06:28:52 PM »
Quote from: ColonelHardisson
You seem to think that just because a game is designed from the ground up for a given setting or license that it is inherently good or superior. That's simply not true. If a game system has proven successful for a certain genre, it doesn't seem like a huge leap to assume it will be useful for a given example of that genre. This has proven true with d20, which has been successful for the fantasy genre. Examples abound of successful fantasy d20 games - the ones I mentioned above (Black Company, etc.) and ones like Iron Heroes. You seem to dismiss my examples by your "sorta kinda" statement, but there are an awful lot of people who think those games work.


I don't think that.  There are many games designed from the ground up that are better for a given setting - but not all are.  But by the same token I certainly don't think taking D20 and converting it to another setting means that it will be an automatic success.  

Your right there are a lot of people that think those games work.  But we are going on Web based opinion poles.  Where there are a lot of people who won't play anything but D20.  A lot of people who thought that when WFRP 2nd came out it was some way based on D20 and a lot of people who simply don't know.  

Quote

Regarding your salad analogy...to each his own. Personally, I see no need to reinvent the fuckin' wheel everytime I want to take a drive.


I love this logic loop, it's almost as good as I don't want to pay for another rule book.  RPG's aren't difficult things to learn mechanically if you know how to run an RPG.  Personally I find it to be a great advantage to know more games - but that's just me perhaps.  


Quote

You realize it's pointless to assert that a game doesn't fit what you feel to be the "feel" of the source material. That's just your own personal assessement, which holds true only for you. Star Wars d20 may not be your cup of tea, but a lot of people like it. WEG apparently didn't set the world on fire with their d6 version, either, but I acknowledge a lot of people liked it, too. So you have two groups of people who feel their chosen game is the proper one to model the source material.


No argument there.  But again what makes an RPG good?  Volume of sales or quality of game?  When it comes to Star Wars I don't even think WEG was a good system.  But by default then it doesn't automatically mean D20 is good.


Quote

I doubt it. Warhammer - a fine game - or Riddle of Steel might be able to model Hyboria as well as the current d20 game, but they wouldn't be better at it.


Why wouldn't they?  Both games have far more normalized character development.   They cover the grim and gritty aspects better in their combat systems.  The magic in both games has that mysterious and feared quality that is inherent in the Conan setting.  The power creep never sets in to the same level as it does in D20.  Seems like they both form a pretty solid foundation for a Conan style epic.  But You doubt it so why does D20 shine? Volume of sales - or is it just because you like salad?

Quote

 Hell, you might as well say RuneQuest would do the job. It could, really. But so? The companies that own Warhammer, Riddle of Steel, or RQ didn't try to get the Conan license.  


My bad didn't realize that marketing was now qualifier for a good game.  That changes everything.  But all sarcasim asside.  What if D20 didn't pick up Conan.  What then what system would you suggest is a better system for Conan or Star Wars or any other realm D20 has bought into?
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kryyst

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2006, 06:31:41 PM »
Quote from: Sigmund
Once again, opinion. My opinion is True20 is a very good system compared to any I've ever seen. For what I like and want to do with a game, True20 is just about perfect.... much better than HERO, GURPS, BRP, DnD 3.5, FUDGE, FATE, whatever. Does that make it the greatest game EVAR? Yes and no. Greatest inherently, probably not. Greatest to me... absolutely. You keep mistaking your opinion for gospel. I assure you, it's not.



So does that make you Mr. Kettle or Mr. Pot?

All of this is opinion.  The only fact is that D20 owns the lions share of the market.  Fuck they own the market.  Doesn't mean it's the best game out there.  I'm not even trying to tell you to stop liking it.  But fro you list of alternates ther eI'm not surprised you like True20 the best - it's the best out of all of them.
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Sigmund

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2006, 07:43:58 PM »
Quote from: kryyst
So does that make you Mr. Kettle or Mr. Pot?


Neither, since I didn't accuse you of something I am also guilty of. All I've said is that taking your opinion and presenting it as truth is misleading and arrogant. For example, you said, "There are elements of the Star Wars game that are fine but the leveling doesn't make sense in relation to the material. Force powers are broken - terribly. Combat certain doesn't fit the cinematic feel that Star Wars portrays." Yet I know plenty of people who play and love Star Wars D20. What this tells me is that your disagreeing with how it was handled mechanically is an opinion not shared by everyone and does not, in fact, mean that anything in the game is broken or that the game doesn't fit the setting. Your statement, "So it just doesn't work." is false if it's working fine for a bunch of people who play it every week and have no problem with how it fits.

You also say, "It [D20] has inherrint flaws that carry with it regardless of what's been done to the mechanics." The fact that a great many D20 games of all types are played by others in our hobby week in, week out and are very much enjoyed would tend to lead one to see your statement as false. You can have any opinion you wish, but the flaws you percieve are not inherent if most players playing the game don't see them.

Quote
All of this is opinion.  The only fact is that D20 owns the lions share of the market.  Fuck they own the market.  Doesn't mean it's the best game out there.  I'm not even trying to tell you to stop liking it.  But fro you list of alternates ther eI'm not surprised you like True20 the best - it's the best out of all of them.


Indeed, but now you're also saying that a D20 derived game is the best out of a slew of other "generic" systems. So what you are advocating is the banishment of all base systems and the creation of a custom tailored game system for each and every genre and setting? That because it's not a custom tailored game for a specific genre/setting anymore it's "broken", "flawed", or otherwise inferior?

So tell us, despite D20 being so broken and horrible and completely unsuited for it's intended purpose, why do you think it sells so well?
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ColonelHardisson

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2006, 08:14:52 PM »
Quote from: kryyst
I don't think that.  There are many games designed from the ground up that are better for a given setting - but not all are.  But by the same token I certainly don't think taking D20 and converting it to another setting means that it will be an automatic success.


Neither do I.

Quote from: kryyst
Your right there are a lot of people that think those games work.  But we are going on Web based opinion poles.  Where there are a lot of people who won't play anything but D20.  A lot of people who thought that when WFRP 2nd came out it was some way based on D20 and a lot of people who simply don't know.


Well, anecdotally, every game shop I've gone to, if it has tables set aside for gaming, has had an overwhelming majority of the people playing D&D. That is, if they were playing RPGs at all. Most of them played minis games. I've been in game shops from one coast to the other here in the US. So while I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence, the sales and online traffic indicates a majority, or maybe a plurality, of people play d20 in one form or the other. Most of those would be playing one iteration or the other of D&D, going by how well WotC does in relation to any other game company.  



Quote from: kryyst
I love this logic loop, it's almost as good as I don't want to pay for another rule book.  RPG's aren't difficult things to learn mechanically if you know how to run an RPG.  Personally I find it to be a great advantage to know more games - but that's just me perhaps.


And how old are you? How many obligations do you have? While I like to spend a lot of time on my hobby like anyone else, being 40 and trying to run my life makes time a luxury. I don't want to expend that luxury on learning new games all the time. Hell, I did that back in my teens and 20s - my gaming library numbers in the hundreds. But I don't think I'm alone - most people my age that I have either asked or have actually gamed with say the same thing - they're not interested in the hobby of RPGs to learn new games. They're in it to actually play. They don't find the expenditure of time worthwhile. They - and I - don't find learning new games fun, particularly now, when gaming time and players are at a premium. I will say that if I had a lot of time to game, then yeah, I'd learn new games (or play more games other than D&D or a d20 variant). So when you say that's something you like, great. I envy you the time you have to do so. But you should bear in mind many of us don't. Enjoy it while you can, because it sucks when the time and players dry up.  

Quote from: kryyst
No argument there.  But again what makes an RPG good?  Volume of sales or quality of game?  When it comes to Star Wars I don't even think WEG was a good system.  But by default then it doesn't automatically mean D20 is good.


No, it doesn't, But sales volume does indicate a number of things - among them good word-of-mouth. If a game is horrible, then people won't play it no matter how much marketing is done, and won't recommend it to others.  

Quote from: kryyst
Why wouldn't they?  Both games have far more normalized character development.


That's a subjective viewpoint.

Quote from: kryyst
They cover the grim and gritty aspects better in their combat systems.


Depends on what you mean by grim & gritty. Plus, I've read all of Howard's Conan stories, and while there is a lot of violence, Howard doesn't go into extreme detail regarding it. The action is fast & furious.

Quote from: kryyst
The magic in both games has that mysterious and feared quality that is inherent in the Conan setting.


So does the Conan magic system. Check it out, especially the Scrolls of Skelos. Very Conanesque in mood.

Quote from: kryyst
The power creep never sets in to the same level as it does in D20.  Seems like they both form a pretty solid foundation for a Conan style epic.  But You doubt it so why does D20 shine? Volume of sales - or is it just because you like salad?


Conan clearly became a tougher and better fighter, able to deal with far tougher enemies, as he got older. Seems like as good an example of levels as anything else in fiction. If you don't see it that way, cool. But it's an indication that this is a discussion about subjective views, and cannot be resolved with an "I'm right/you're wrong" solution.

Why does Conan d20 shine? Because it captures the mood and feel of the setting. Is the combat fast and furious? Frankly, no. But it doesn't go into detail that Howard never went into, like games with hit locations and the like do.

Quote from: kryyst
My bad didn't realize that marketing was now qualifier for a good game.  That changes everything.


What does marketing have to with it? Those companies didn't spring for the license, so we'll never see how good such a Conan game would be. Wanna try your hand at doing it on your own? I'd look at it.

Quote from: kryyst
But all sarcasim asside.  What if D20 didn't pick up Conan.  What then what system would you suggest is a better system for Conan or Star Wars or any other realm D20 has bought into?


I've played RQ, and while I figure it could handle Conan, I don't see it as being especially suited for it. Warhammer, maybe, but in my experience, WH evokes a far more chaotic, supernaturally-based mood than Howard's Conan stories. But it could be done. I have the GURPS Conan book, and frankly, it just doesn't do it for me at all. I have TSR's old Conan RPG from 1985, a totally different system from D&D. It seems to do an OK job, but not as well you might think. I might say a revision of that game would work.

Star Wars? I dunno, honestly. Some aspects of the d6 game evoked the feel of the setting. But so did some of the d20 game. I like the d20 game, but I liked the d6 game too.

Black Company seems pretty damned well-served by the d20 game developed for it. I like it as it is. Thieves World is the same way.

Babylon 5 seems to handle the setting well. But GURPS might do a good job with it if need be, or even Classic Traveller. Yeah, Classic Traveller might be fun for a B5 game.
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4e definitely has an Old School feel. If you disagree, cool. I won't throw any hyperbole out to prove the point.

kryyst

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2006, 10:04:50 AM »
I think this whole debate has gotten off track.

Is D20 adaptable - yes
Is D20 popular - yes
Does D20 work - yes

But can you take D20 and turn it into anything you want?
Quote from: pundit
So D20 is basically "one system to rule them all", but not in the sense of GURPS where the understanding of "system" is that you try to jam the same set of rules into any power level or setting context. Rather, its a set of modular rules that you wildly vary and adapt to fit your specific setting or campaign needs.


I say no.  Can you turn D20 into any setting probably - but that's just a setting the setting is the fluff around a mechanic.  Where the mechanic fails a conversion is in the Genre.  Making a 3 Musketeers style game using D20, WFRP or Fate are going to end up with 3 very different games regardless if all the people and places stay the same.  They mechanic, or rather the influence of the mechanics are going to create different styles of games.

It doesn't mater if you use Hood's Grim and Gritty combat in D20 it's still going to feel different the say WFRP's or Riddle of Steel.  For me it's the genre of game that I choose different systems for the setting is just fluff.

OH and to answer your question on time/place I'm 33 married work more then 50hrs a week and have a kid on the way.  It doesn't take long to learn a new game infact as Pundit pointed out earlier often learning a new flavor of D20 say True20 is just as much as learning say Warhammer.
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Caesar Slaad

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2006, 01:54:10 PM »
Quote from: kryyst
So you miss the point. Taking D20 and converting it to Warhammer by adding in Skaven, maybe changing all the levels to various careers and removing hit points in favor of some other hacked on system. Does not mean you're now playing D20 Warhammer.


Are you sure?

That particular example includes more than a little hypocrisy, if you think about it. The Warhammer FB game, which WFRP was based on, was a game in which a single heroic character could have half the point value of an entire army. Wizards and dragons could destroy massive amounts of troops. Major character have items of great power.

Yet in WFRP, you play lowly characters who would be lucky to get a decent set of armor, much less anything magical. So if WFRP gets a bye for not slotting right into the feel of its predescessor, why couldn't a hypothetical "D20 Warhammer."

I always like the background material for WFB but didn't find that WFRP suited me for long term gaming and didn't catch the high power fantasy feel of the war game. I'd play a d20 variant that captured the real feel of the background material in a heartbeat, though. (In fact, elements of various WFB army books have made it into my D&D games.)
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Caesar Slaad

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2006, 01:56:01 PM »
Quote from: kryyst
I think this whole debate has gotten off track.

Is D20 adaptable - yes
Is D20 popular - yes
Does D20 work - yes

But can you take D20 and turn it into anything you want?


Would it work as well if you could?

I tend to think that the answer is no.
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fonkaygarry

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2006, 11:13:27 PM »
Quote from: Caesar Slaad
The Warhammer FB game, which WFRP was based on, was a game in which a single heroic character could have half the point value of an entire army. Wizards and dragons could destroy massive amounts of troops. Major character have items of great power.


[Total nitpicking prick]  

That was quite true in earlier editions of WFB.  There was much grousing about Herohammer on the net and many old fans felt that the games feel was getting too light hearted.

Sixth edition really rolled back the power level of characters, turning dudes like Teclis and Egrim van Horstmann back into the one-off freaks of fluff they're really supposed to be.

[/Total nitpicking prick]
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droog

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2006, 10:49:53 PM »
Quote from: kryyst
OH and to answer your question on time/place I'm 33 married work more then 50hrs a week and have a kid on the way.

I'm 42, married with a child, work 30-40 hours a week, never have enough time to do all the things I want to do, but I still like to learn new games.
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JongWK

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2006, 12:14:48 AM »
Just because it needs to be posted:

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, is that D20 - for lack of a better word - is good. D20 is right. D20 works. D20 clarifies, cuts through and captures the essence of the roleplaying spirit. D20, in all of its forms - greed for life, for money, for XP, knowledge - has marked the upward surge of mankind. And D20 - you mark my words - will not only save Wizards of the Coast but that other malfunctioning group called 'roleplaying'."



:D
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RPGObjects_chuck

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2006, 12:45:04 AM »
Quote from: kryyst
I don't think that.  There are many games designed from the ground up that are better for a given setting - but not all are.  But by the same token I certainly don't think taking D20 and converting it to another setting means that it will be an automatic success.  

You could say that about ALL generic games though.

You aren't saying anything about d20 you aren't saying about Hero or GURPs.

Also, you continue assuming YOUR tastes are universal.

A lot of people dislike learning new systems with a passion. People like me.

I have never played a system (other than D&D) that wasn't universal. I prefer to get inside mechanics and get to know them well.

Universal systems also have the advantage of presenting the guts of the rules right out front, making them much easier to modify to meet your needs.

[EDIT] And something a lot of folks seem intent on missing, is that the core of d20 that has been with the game since original D&D is a GREAT system that succeeds with the majority of gamers on the MERITS.

That's right: classes, races and f***ing hitpoints are a good system that most gamers like and that work in all genres.

Chuck

Caesar Slaad

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2006, 02:52:45 PM »
Quote from: JongWK
Just because it needs to be posted:

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, is that D20 - for lack of a better word - is good. D20 is right. D20 works. D20 clarifies, cuts through and captures the essence of the roleplaying spirit. D20, in all of its forms - greed for life, for money, for XP, knowledge - has marked the upward surge of mankind. And D20 - you mark my words - will not only save Wizards of the Coast but that other malfunctioning group called 'roleplaying'."



:D


Goddammit... where the hell is that rep button? :cool:
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JongWK

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2006, 02:58:01 PM »
Quote from: Caesar Slaad
Goddammit... where the hell is that rep button? :cool:


Truth to be told, it was someone else who came up with that Wall Street joke over at RPGnet. I loved it the minute I read it. :)


I did search for the image, though...
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Caesar Slaad

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The Virtues of D20
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2006, 03:01:53 PM »
Quote from: JongWK
Truth to be told, it was someone else who came up with that Wall Street joke over at RPGnet. I loved it the minute I read it. :)


Really? Who was it? My RPGnet visits have been brief these days... must have missed that one.
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