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Author Topic: The trial of Vincent Baker  (Read 27402 times)

Shipyard Locked

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #165 on: August 14, 2015, 06:36:15 PM »
Quote from: NathanIW;848859
Since we're done with The trial of Vincent Baker, I guess it's time for the trial of Zak S...

:rolleyes:


Alright, starting that thread now. :D

...

No, I'm not. I was kidding. Hear that Brendan, I was kidding!

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #166 on: August 14, 2015, 06:46:16 PM »
Quote from: Sommerjon;848750
Has it succeeded?  We don't know do we, lets wait a couple more years and see whats what.


Yes, it's succeeded. You wishing it didn't doesn't change fuck all.

Quote



You're even easier, you push this
on your own website.  I will give your props for staying in character though.


So... they hired me for exactly the reasons I said they hired me?

Is that your claim/issue/problem?

I get that it might piss you off that I'm more accomplished than you are, and that I turned out to be EXACTLY right about 4e, and that most publishers consider me the best game reviewer out there today (even ones that otherwise despise me).  That must cause you to ache a little. But again, what you feel doesn't actually mean fuck all in the context of what's reality. You need to start coping with that.
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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #167 on: August 14, 2015, 07:04:51 PM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;848877
Ah. So it's just a fascistic demand not only that everyone has to agree with you, but that they have to actively denounce everyone else as loudly as possible or they're not really agreeing with you.

... I love that you think that's actually better.


That's seriously the best counterpoint you've got? God you suck.
Not everyone has to agree with me. For example, you're a worthless nonentity, so who gives a fuck what you think?

But people in a position of actual influence, who appear to be connected to a certain group, can be assumed to be endorsing said group.  If Bernie Sanders started hanging out at a bunch of KKK barbeques (to use an completely absurd argument), and had know KKK Imperial Grand Wizards coming and going from his place every Saturday night, and KKK magazines started writing about how wonderful and amazing Bernie Sanders is, then Bernie Sanders would have some legitimate questions to answer: like "You sure are hanging out with the KKK pretty often lately, Bernie... don't you think their views are a problem?" and "The KKK has endorsed you as an example of good leadership, don't you think that's weird? Are you endorsing them too?"

So, same thing with Vince Baker. He's regularly hanging around (online) with terrible, terrible people; and those terrible people are regularly talking about how awesome he and his games are.  With him, it matters that he say if he doesn't actually approve of those terrible people and the terrible things they do.

With you, no one would give a shit. Because you're literally no one and your opinions are worthless.


Quote

... says the guy who periodically lambastes James Maliszewski because he's failed your OSR purity test.


I lambaste him because he was a fraud who stole tens of thousands of dollars from gamers, while severely damaging the reputation of a game company that made the mistake of trusting him, and all because he'd used highly deceptive self-promotion to try to place himself as the Pope of the OSR, in spite of not having had the slightest bit of interest in Old-school until very recently when it became profitable.  

If anything, he was the one trying to apply Swine tactics to the OSR, just like Ron Edwards is now by turning himself into the Al Gore of the OSR and trying to pretend he invented it.

But hey, if you're one of the rubes that Maliszewski fleeced, you maybe want to think differently so you don't feel like such a moron. And if you weren't, then why the fuck are you defending him now?  

He was a piece of shit. He STOLE PEOPLE'S MONEY, while trying to be the guy who gate-kept the OSR.  In spite of having had nothing to do with old-school D&D until the moment he realized he could steal people's money from it, he set himself up as the guy who got to tell others of us, who had been old-schoolers since forever, that we weren't being real OSR gamers, because he knew that if he set up the OSR to be a little Taliban of 'talmudic scholars' arguing about Gary Gygax's dental bills instead of a broader imaginative enterprise, it would let him be in control while hiding his complete lack of talent.  

So fuck that and fuck you, you sad little shit. I know it must be really hard to see me win again and again at every thing I do, but frankly, I couldn't give a fuck anymore about whatever issues you have with me. I don't need to anymore, because I won. D&D has become what I said it should become. The OSR has become what I said it should become. And nothing you say is going to change any of that. They're mine now. You're all living in Pundit's world, and it's working, and it's beautiful.
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Shipyard Locked

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #168 on: August 14, 2015, 08:24:17 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;848894

With you, no one would give a shit. Because you're literally no one and your opinions are worthless.


As a person who defended 4e back before the inevitable became obvious, I regularly noted that his opinions of the game's flaws were a rallying cry for the other side. I'm inclined to say he played a measurable role in articulating and weaponizing the dissatisfaction that led to 5e.

His blog has also been quite useful to me and a fellow GM, and he comes up once in a while on other forums. I say all this while still disagreeing with a lot of his output (even as I play more in his style I grit my teeth whenever I remember "Disassociated Mechanics" :mad:).

Quote from: RPGPundit;848894
He (Maliszewski) was a piece of shit.


Yes, true, but...

Quote from: RPGPundit;848894
... in spite of not having had the slightest bit of interest in Old-school until very recently when it became profitable.


This feels like an irrelevant objection. His blog was full of genuinely useful insights, updated very regularly, and fun to read. He was a gateway into the OSR for many people, including me, so scumbag Johnny-come-lately or not, I say his work prior to the DwimmerMount disaster needs no pedigree.

Spinachcat

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #169 on: August 14, 2015, 10:02:47 PM »
Quote from: Bren;848724
That wasn't an attack.


Quote from: Zak S;848727
Then we disagree about whether it's an attack.


THIS is why I often hate the internet. Communication without facial expressions, vocal inflections, body language and other non-verbal cues just leads to crap like this.

I absolutely believe if ZakS and Bren were sitting across from each other, this would be an entirely different conversation with a separate outcome.



Quote from: RPGPundit;848738
If Vince Baker was directly involved in the antics of gencon players, and then praised their antics as a wonderful example of play, I think he can be judged on that.


Yes. I agreed to this upthread. Baker's response to the GenCon incident was creepy and HE can be judged by it. I do see why you believe Poison'd should also be judged by his actions since its not con game run by a random GM, but a game run by the author and he praised it.


Quote from: RPGPundit;848738
I never had any expectation of 'future consulting gigs' from WoTC.  That's not what sucked about Consultantgate.


I had assumed you and ZakS would do future writing for WotC's 5e line when you were brought in as consultants.


Quote from: RPGPundit;848738
There's a big difference between 'some controversy' (like the ridiculous but mostly harmless rant Sage Latorre made when my hiring was first announced), and what Consultantgate did, with its broad-spectrum lie-based crusade.


Maybe, I'm too jaded because of the culture of 4chan-isms / doxxing / Lamergate, but in the internet age it seems like any controversy explodes into Maximum Stupidland.


Quote from: Sommerjon;848750
Out of all of the thousands of RPG blogs out there what makes you or zak relevant?


Readership and voice. Also, I suspect that among the various popular RPG bloggers, WotC believed Pundy and ZakS were aligned with their concept of blending ideas from various editions to create 5e.


Quote from: NathanIW;848859
Since we're done with The trial of Vincent Baker, I guess it's time for the trial of Zak S...


But doesn't ZakS weigh more than a duck???


Quote from: RPGPundit;848890
Yes, it's succeeded. You wishing it didn't doesn't change fuck all.


I'm not a 5e fan and I don't get the "5e didn't succeed" talk. Fans of every edition benefit when the current D&D edition is selling well.


Quote from: RPGPundit;848894
For example, you're a worthless nonentity, so who gives a fuck what you think?


Dude, that's uncool - even for Mos Eisley. I have deeply disagreed with Justin Alexander and I consider his Disassociated Mechanics theory beyond flawed, but there's no call for this level of vitriol among fellow fans of an elf game.


Quote from: RPGPundit;848894
With you, no one would give a shit. Because you're literally no one and your opinions are worthless.


May I recommend the book How to Make Friends and Influence People?

Brad

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #170 on: August 14, 2015, 10:15:33 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;848929
I absolutely believe if ZakS and Bren were sitting across from each other, this would be an entirely different conversation with a separate outcome.


I don't believe it for one second.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #171 on: August 14, 2015, 10:22:27 PM »
Why?

apparition13

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #172 on: August 14, 2015, 10:30:46 PM »
Quote from: Zak S;848852
...

You asked for an example of a question where you know the answer ahead of time, by asserting that no matter what example I provide you know ahead of time that I'm wrong.

If you were actually interested in seeking "truth", you'd have hedged that with some doubt. You didn't. Ergo, you're not looking for truth, you're looking for agreement. And you keep going until either you get it or, what usually happens, the other person thinks "what a waste of time" and stops responding. And if they don't respond, you win again.

By the way, this second post? Step one in "badgering".

"The Zakratic Method" at work.
Quote from: CRKrueger;848854
Actually what you did was prove my point.  Zak's tone allows that to become the point of attack and people who make judgments based on tone will start to believe the accusations. (and no Zak, I'm not giving you PR advice before Christmas).

If you want to make your point, go grab a single concrete example of the Socratic leading trap questioning and link to it. Done.  Supposedly they should be easy to find, right?

You don't think this:
Quote
Can you, Apparition, provide a real life example of me asking a leading question with a desired answer I am badgering a person to provide? If so, provide a link.

There is no preferred answer here:

A "no" is terrible--it means you are accusing me of wrongdoing with no evidence.

A "yes, here's a link" is likewise terrible--it means i have to go through the tedious process of explaining the mistake in your interpretation. But it still illuminates how you came to have such an inaccurate view.

counts? Asks a question, and if I say no I'm wrong (which is fair enough), but if I provide an example, I'm still wrong because I'm misinterpreting him? No possibility he might be wrong, no inkling of doubt, no admission of fallibility, he's right, I'm wrong, end of?  A question with only one answer. Why bother spending time digging through posts looking for examples when he drops one in my lap?

Quote from: Brad;848855
Is this supposed to be ironic?

I thought so. Asks for evidence by asking a question in a way that provides the evidence the question is asking for.
 

TristramEvans

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #173 on: August 14, 2015, 10:34:54 PM »
Quote from: NathanIW;848859
Since we're done with The trial of Vincent Baker, I guess it's time for the trial of Zak S...


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Zak S

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #174 on: August 14, 2015, 10:44:08 PM »
Apparition, you accused me of asking leading questions that were (iirc) "pseudo-rational" and "traps".

I defined "leading question" and the related "loaded question" and your examples fit neither definition.

You then invent a whole new category and complained about it "Asking questions where there's no good answer".

This is called moving the goalposts.

Those questions I asked are not a logical fallacy--the thing is as soon as you falsely accuse someone you create this situation for yourself where there's no right answer rather than it being a function of the question.

Like if you rob a bank, then answer probing questions honestly about what you were doing that night, you can't help but reveal you robbed a bank. This is your fault because you robbed the bank.
 
Another example:

"Zak, the Honda Accord is not a car, it's a kind of giant jellybean"

"Prove it"

Now, because you can't prove that (because it is insane) you could call "prove it" a "trap". But it's not: it is the logical outcome of making a false accusation. If you don't want to find yourself in the position of having no right answer, do not make false accusations to begin with.
   
The same with your bizarre assumption that in order to be fair I must consider it is possible that a Honda Accord is a jellybean. There is absolutely no logical, or rhetorical requirement that, in a debate, one side must assume they might be wrong.

I must address any evidence you provide but I don't have to believe or pretend to believe the dumb ideas I am defending against.

As for "truth-seeking" the truth I am seeking is why you said a stupid thing, not whether you said a stupid thing.
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Brad

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #175 on: August 14, 2015, 11:08:33 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;848934
Why?


See the post above.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #176 on: August 14, 2015, 11:13:23 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;848929

I had assumed you and ZakS would do future writing for WotC's 5e line when you were brought in as consultants.


I had no such assumption, at no point did I express any such expectation to WoTC nor did WoTC or Mike Mearls make any kind of suggestion that they would, and I suspect Mearls knows me well enough to know that if he wanted to do such an offer, it couldn't possibly be to write some adventure module under the careful censorship or supervision of Wizards' executives.

As the recent debacle around Ryan Macklin's advice to would-be pathfinder writers suggests, my RPG-writing is way too interesting to be able to feel comfortable to the top brass at WoTC (or Pathfinder, apparently).  But that's exactly part of what made me perfect for a consultant for the 5e project.

I strongly suspect all of the above applies to Zak as well.



Quote

Dude, that's uncool - even for Mos Eisley. I have deeply disagreed with Justin Alexander and I consider his Disassociated Mechanics theory beyond flawed, but there's no call for this level of vitriol among fellow fans of an elf game.


He asked for it. He wanted to know why it should matter whether Vince Baker says something about the Outrage Brigade or not, and why WoTC would pick me (and not, say, him) to be a Consultant on their major new release of D&D.  


Quote

May I recommend the book How to Make Friends and Influence People?


I have no illusions of trying to win over his friendship; the moutain-sized chip on his shoulder is obvious. So I may as well rub it in.
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


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The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
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Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

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Christopher Brady

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #177 on: August 14, 2015, 11:50:52 PM »
Quote from: NathanIW;848859
Since we're done with The trial of Vincent Baker, I guess it's time for the trial of Zak S...

:rolleyes:


The only person here that has been on 'trial' from what I've seen is the Pundit.  Every second post since the inception has been about how he hated the whole GNS BS, and how he has it in for them.

Personally, I was disgusted by the Poison'd debacle on RPG.net, and what it brought out of the players, it felt like watching my old roommates play Grand Theft Auto 3 all over again, with the gleeful and sometimes nonchalant butchering of prostitutes (which was the sole method of healing) and simply running them over to get the money spent back.  It's all make believe, but it's still kinda disturbing.

Do I blame Mr. Baker?  Only so far as he made that game, and promoted that as a healthy way to play it.  Should he be strung up by the yardarm and sodomized as happily as his players skullfucked a cabin boy in that very game?  No.  It's a game designed in bad taste and frankly, that's all I can blame him for:  Bad taste.

I don't care much for his games, because they come off like board games without the board.  Hyperfocused and with a single method of playing, doesn't matter what the rules are dressed up as, the game will work into the same end goal.  Which is perfectly fine for a Board Game, not so much for an RPG.
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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #178 on: August 15, 2015, 03:15:37 AM »
ZakS, is the "Zakratic Method" something you do in live conversations?

Or is something you feels need to be done online because of the "permanent record" of the internet?

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The trial of Vincent Baker
« Reply #179 on: August 15, 2015, 03:19:51 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;848952
I suspect Mearls knows me well enough to know that if he wanted to do such an offer, it couldn't possibly be to write some adventure module under the careful censorship or supervision of Wizards' executives.


That's a shame, especially as 5e lacks a 3PP license. As consultants for 5e, I would have been interested to see what both you and ZakS do with the system.