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The State of Free Speech

Started by jhkim, March 21, 2018, 04:09:11 PM

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jhkim

March 21, 2018, 04:09:11 PM
I thought I'd bring up a free speech issue that bugged me in the news recently - the case where a man in the UK was convicted of a hate crime for posting a YouTube video.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2018/03/21/youtube-comedian-convicted-hate-crime-after-teaching-nazi-salute-to-dog.html

To my mind, it's pretty blatantly obvious that this is an abuse of the term "hate crime".  A hate crime should be a distinction added to a crime, to indicate that it was motivated by hate. But uploading a video to YouTube isn't a crime (or at least shouldn't be). We have stronger free speech protections in the U.S., and I think the ACLU would be all over this here.

Pundit - does it interest you?

RPGPundit

#1
March 21, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
It certainly does interest me. The case of Count Dankula is horrifying, and to me an example of what's going on all over the Western world, in terms of rising Establishment Totalitarianism in the service of post-modernist Leftist agendas.
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#2
March 21, 2018, 10:22:05 PM
The term hate crime, is IMO pretty stupid.   I think it is a very, very slippery slope to thought crime.   I think a crime is a crime, and the motivation for a crime is not particularly relevant.

jhkim

#3
March 22, 2018, 12:05:53 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1030659The term hate crime, is IMO pretty stupid.   I think it is a very, very slippery slope to thought crime.   I think a crime is a crime, and the motivation for a crime is not particularly relevant.
Motivation is important for other crimes. For example, premeditated murder for profit is considered differently than spontaneous murder in a fight, say. Similarly, terrorism charges depend on the motivation for the act - i.e. if it is for political goals as opposed to just random or personal. Was the bombing part of political intimidation, or was it random bombing?

The clear dividing line for hate crime is that it has to be something that is already a crime. That should be the clear end to any slippery slope. Hating is not a crime.

Spinachcat

#4
March 22, 2018, 12:21:39 AM
THIS is whey we ALL must fight for the freedom of others to offend us with their speech.

BTW, lots of comments on that page show how little freedom of speech means to people. That should concern you whatever your Team.

It was a stupid video, but making stupid videos must never become a crime.

But considering the trajectory of the UK, none of this is surprising.

Mordred Pendragon

#5
March 22, 2018, 12:49:19 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1030690THIS is whey we ALL must fight for the freedom of others to offend us with their speech.

BTW, lots of comments on that page show how little freedom of speech means to people. That should concern you whatever your Team.

It was a stupid video, but making stupid videos must never become a crime.

But considering the trajectory of the UK, none of this is surprising.

This guy gets it.
Sic Semper Tyrannis

oggsmash

#6
March 22, 2018, 08:05:18 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1030686Motivation is important for other crimes. For example, premeditated murder for profit is considered differently than spontaneous murder in a fight, say. Similarly, terrorism charges depend on the motivation for the act - i.e. if it is for political goals as opposed to just random or personal. Was the bombing part of political intimidation, or was it random bombing?

The clear dividing line for hate crime is that it has to be something that is already a crime. That should be the clear end to any slippery slope. Hating is not a crime.

   Not yet, or at least not here, yet.  Hate crime attachment is the first step.

Ras Algethi

#7
March 22, 2018, 09:07:52 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1030686Motivation is important for other crimes. For example, premeditated murder for profit is considered differently than spontaneous murder in a fight, say. Similarly, terrorism charges depend on the motivation for the act - i.e. if it is for political goals as opposed to just random or personal. Was the bombing part of political intimidation, or was it random bombing?

The clear dividing line for hate crime is that it has to be something that is already a crime. That should be the clear end to any slippery slope. Hating is not a crime.

The term "hate crime" is dubious at best. It is illegal to assault people or murder them, regardless of why you do it. Just look at the James Byrd Jr. example. Three men kill a man, because he was black. Two get the death penalty and one gets life in prison. Yet there is an outcry and "hate crime" legislation has to be passed. What the fuck more do people need over death and life in prison? Anyone remember the ad calling G. W. Bush a racist because because he didn't support "hate crime" legislation? Being charged and convicted of the highest crime in the state (this case Texas) isn't enough?

Ulairi

#8
March 22, 2018, 09:49:53 AM
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1030739The term "hate crime" is dubious at best. It is illegal to assault people or murder them, regardless of why you do it. Just look at the James Byrd Jr. example. Three men kill a man, because he was black. Two get the death penalty and one gets life in prison. Yet there is an outcry and "hate crime" legislation has to be passed. What the fuck more do people need over death and life in prison? Anyone remember the ad calling G. W. Bush a racist because because he didn't support "hate crime" legislation? Being charged and convicted of the highest crime in the state (this case Texas) isn't enough?
They want hate crime legislation so they can then get hate speech to be a thing. If you scratch a leftist you always find a totalitarian. Progressives are Marxists by nature and Marxism cannot happen without totalitarianism.

jhkim

#9
March 22, 2018, 12:07:35 PM
Quote from: jhkimThe clear dividing line for hate crime is that it has to be something that is already a crime. That should be the clear end to any slippery slope. Hating is not a crime.
Quote from: oggsmash;1030730Not yet, or at least not here, yet.  Hate crime attachment is the first step.
Dude, it's been fifty years since we instituted hate crimes with the Civil Rights Act of 1968. I don't want to see us end up like the UK, but I also think it's bullshit to rail against the Civil Rights Act because of a supposed slippery slope that takes over fifty years to manifest.

Ras Algethi

#10
March 22, 2018, 12:23:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1030780Dude, it's been fifty years since we instituted hate crimes with the Civil Rights Act of 1968. I don't want to see us end up like the UK, but I also think it's bullshit to rail against the Civil Rights Act because of a supposed slippery slope that takes over fifty years to manifest.

I could be mistaken, but it appears you are the first person to bring up the Civil Rights Act ('68).

jhkim

#11
March 22, 2018, 12:41:33 PM
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1030783I could be mistaken, but it appears you are the first person to bring up the Civil Rights Act ('68).
The Civil Rights Act of 1968 was the law that introduced additional federal penalties if a crime was committed because of the other person's race, color, religion or national origin. Specifically, it can add 1 year penalty for any crime; or 10 years penalty if there was any bodily harm; or any years penalty (or possibly death) if there was death, kidnapping, or sexual abuse.

It seems to me that this is what you are arguing against in your complaint about hate crimes.

Ras Algethi

#12
March 22, 2018, 01:17:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1030787The Civil Rights Act of 1968 was the law that introduced additional federal penalties if a crime was committed because of the other person's race, color, religion or national origin. Specifically, it can add 1 year penalty for any crime; or 10 years penalty if there was any bodily harm; or any years penalty (or possibly death) if there was death, kidnapping, or sexual abuse.

It seems to me that this is what you are arguing against in your complaint about hate crimes.

So, once again you are being disingenuous. Got it.

Ratman_tf

#13
March 22, 2018, 01:26:04 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1030690BTW, lots of comments on that page show how little freedom of speech means to people. That should concern you whatever your Team.

It's chilling. I'm fairly pissed off at the whole affair, but especially the people laughing it off, who are going to be begging for understanding if/when it's their turn.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

S'mon

#14
March 22, 2018, 04:17:23 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1030792It's chilling. I'm fairly pissed off at the whole affair, but especially the people laughing it off, who are going to be begging for understanding if/when it's their turn.

People always think it'll be *their* boot stamping on a human face forever.
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