The "Rebecca Borgstrom is a Moron Law"

[RPGPundit]

(P.S. I always thought the Amber novels were dull and that the Amber RPG was a non-game that failed in its goals.)

Well, you thought wrong. But then given that you appear to be a Nobilis "fan", the fact that you have your head up your arse regarding Amber isn't really a surprise to me, nor should it be to anyone.

RPGPundit

[dar]

Look at how Nobilis rewards it's players.

Every time there is a successful and enjoyable game session--that is, everyone had fun--the characters receive a Dynasty Point [which can be spent to buy resources for the group as a whole]. At the completion of each successful, enjoyable story--one where every player had fun in most of the sessions--the players choose whether to receive one new character point [which can be spent to buy things for that character] or a chancel point [used on the team's HQ].

that I got from this entry

It's a rule that will make the players lie. To make them WANT to lie. And then to feel twisted and wrong inside because they lied or somehow didn't 'have fun' when everyone else did... maybe not even realizing that the others lied too. It'll make them feel guilty and that there is something wrong with them... and only if they tried to BELIEVE harder they would be right and good and their friends and new family would love them.

What player would want to be a stick in the mud and ruin everyones reward by being a party pooper... certainly not the new person who is uncertain and doesn't know what is going on and is just trying to get along.... and certainly not the accomplished player in front of the newbs...  just like in some of the comments to that post, why would they be playing if they weren't 'having fun'?

Its a freaking cult! Complete with it's little social games (literally in this case) designed to get the cultists to do there own brainwashing and self flagellation and policing!

What bloody minded evil genius of a Hubbard wanna be came up with this game!?

And why the hell didn't I think of it first!?

[James McMurray]

When Zelazny spent who knows how many pages describing a discussion between a Prince of Amber and a bird about solipsism it was pretty freaking dull. Most of the rest of the two series were good though.

[RedFox]

Look at how Nobilis rewards it's players.

 ...

Its a freaking cult! Complete with it's little social games (literally in this case) designed to get the cultists to do there own brainwashing and self flagellation and policing!

What bloody minded evil genius of a Hubbard wanna be came up with this game!?

And why the hell didn't I think of it first!?

Wow, I'm not in Kansas (the Purple Site) anymore, am I?

[The Yann Waters]

It's a rule that will make the players lie. To make them WANT to lie. And then to feel twisted and wrong inside because they lied or somehow didn't 'have fun' when everyone else did... maybe not even realizing that the others lied too.

Or they could, oh I don't know, perhaps explain why they didn't have fun this time, so that the problem can be fixed. Personally I'd award the points even for that explanation; and if the GM doesn't, well, the confession just costs a Dynasty Point. Unless the group is specifically trying to gather power in order to, say, heal their wounded Imperator, those aren't all that significant.

[Blackleaf]

GrimGent -- does Nobilis have any faults at all?  

[The Yann Waters]

GrimGent -- does Nobilis have any faults at all?  

Well, it could always use more robust rules for uncommon mortals; and the Bonds might be integrated more fully into the miracle system, perhaps so that safeguarding them would yield actual benefits...

These are four of my most notable houserules for the game:
1) Estate Affinities for Commoners: every mortal is "tuned" to a number of Estates which then act much like skills in other games. They can use these Affinities for the mundane equivalent of various miracles, so that (for example) someone with the Affinity to Engines might use a Creation to piece together a working engine from spare parts whereas a supernatural being could simply conjure the whole thing out of thin air. But a high Affinity also allows the Noble who rules that particular Estate to "claim" a mortal, essentially transforming her into a part of it. A world-famous pianist who attracts the attention of the Power of Music might end up becoming living music in human form.
2) Dedicated Character Points: in addition to the usual CPs awarded at the end of the story, each character may earn an extra point towards some goal named in advance and pursued during the game, like learning to walk between the worlds or transcending the mortal body by constantly straining against its limits. The same could be done with a Chancel Point, by mutual agreement and with a story which revolves around the whole Familia trying to improve their realm in some way (for instance, banishing the local Banes).
3) Reduced Miracle Costs for Proper Service: any character may usually earn a single Miracle Point by performing a major service to the personal Code which she follows. I award this point beforehand for attempted miracles which serve the Code so that its final cost is effectively reduced by one. Also, the same applies to any and all feats intended to protect one's Bonds.
4) A Simple Rite for Storing Domain Miracles: for one additional DMP, a Noble can with a touch "invest" a miracle of Domain into an item (or a living creature). During the brief Rite, she performs this miracle as usual, but instead of unleashing it instantly she specifies the conditions under which it will later unfold. ("Whoever crushes this origami swan in his hand shall be restored to youth", or "Whisper my name three times and a champion will appear to defend you.") For mystery cultists, there is no extra cost: any Noble can store miracles into her Imperator's cult freely.

[RPGPundit]

Wow, I'm not in Kansas (the Purple Site) anymore, am I?

You ain't even in the neighbourhood, kid.

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

Nobilis is a near-unplayable mass of nonsensical rules piled over an unbearably dull beancounter system. Its the "mornington crescent" of the RPG world; no one actually would be able to play it with the rules as-is, but all the Nobilis-fanboys pretend that they know how it plays, in order to not be left out. You see, they were told that Nobilis is a really sophisticated game for smart people, and like the Emperor's new clothes, they aren't going to be left out by admitting what they believe is their ignorance.

Only the worst kind of fashionistas could actually claim to enjoy this game. And then it wouldn't be for the game itself, but for their sense of glee at being part of the "in crowd" for playing the game.

Its garbage. Utter garbage.

In comparison, look at Amber, which actually does everything that Nobilis only has pretense to.  Its really brilliant, really innovative, but also really simple and really playable.

RPGPundit

[The Yann Waters]

Nobilis is a near-unplayable mass of nonsensical rules piled over an unbearably dull beancounter system.

Eh, it's perfectly possible to play through a session without ever spending a single Miracle Point, especially with players who nurse small MP pools and suspicions of having to confront something extraordinarily nasty later on. It would be more accurate to say that keeping track of hit points is dull, since that's something you have to do constantly in quite a few games.

Its the "mornington crescent" of the RPG world; no one actually would be able to play it with the rules as-is, but all the Nobilis-fanboys pretend that they know how it plays, in order to not be left out.

A curious claim, that, since you are most definitely not one of those fanboys and yet judging by these forums still remain as ignorant of how it all works out as the next fellow...

All right, then: name one situation which might come up during the game and couldn't be resolved with the rules as written.

[Ian Absentia]

In comparison, look at Amber...

I have.  I own it.  Well, okay, I owned it for about six years before I sold it to someone who might actually enjoy it.  I read it from cover to cover, and Lord knows I tried to enjoy it myself.  It was a dull non-game that featured some of the most grotesquely antagonistic GM advice I've ever seen committed to print.  Oh, but you like that sort of thing, don't you?

...which actually does everything that Nobilis only has pretense to.

Please.  I've played Amber.  Have you actually played Nobilis?  Listen, for a game that's ostensibly about internecine conflict, I immediately ran into trouble with the GM and other players over the fact that I sat out the (laughable) stat auction that is supposed to engender intra-group rivalries and promptly bought second best in every stat.  I was Bleys, man.  Fucking Bleys, and they were all boo-hooey because I wasn't playing the game right.  Fuck that, I was gaming the game and playing it more like the novels than they were.

Its really brilliant, really innovative, but also really simple and really playable.

Brilliant? No.  Innovative? Sort of.  Simple? Overly-so. Playable? Debatable.

Man, talk about your game cults.  Amber has to take the cake.

!i!

[Blackleaf]

Was I the only one who chuckled through the whole Nobilis book, taking it as an ironic jab / send up at White Wolf-style pretentiousness? Because to me, the whole thing seemed like an elaborate in-joke. From the chapter devoted to the "language of flowers" to the example play being a guy jumping around on missiles and kicking jet fighters apart with his super powers.

1) I've heard the production values on the physical book are really top notch.  It looks great, and if someone were to give me a copy, I'd be pleased to have such a nice looking book in my home.

2) Whether merely pretentious or ironically pretentious.  Whether an unplayable mess, or a highly innovative game where you can jump around on missiles and kick jet fighter apart... it just doesn't sound like my idea of fun.  At all.

I hope to see more RPGs take the time (when they can afford to) and make beautiful books.

I hope ironically pretentious games with F-18 Can-Can Dancing never catch on.

[Ian Absentia]

Whether merely pretentious or ironically pretentious.  Whether an unplayable mess, or a highly innovative game where you can jump around on missiles and kick jet fighter apart... it just doesn't sound like my idea of fun.  At all.

[...snip...]

I hope ironically pretentious games with F-18 Can-Can Dancing never catch on.

It's entirely within the context of the game (I was tempted to use the word "genre" instead of "context", but I'm not sure that there's really a genre for this sort of thing).  If you enjoyed the Sandman comics and graphic novels, it's very possible that you'd enjoy the sort of action portrayed in Nobilis (and, yes, if you didn't, then it's very possible that you wouldn't -- touché).

Look, I have friends I'd love to get playing RPGs, but they take a look at D&D (the best known example for the uninitiated) and shake their heads at it the way you seemed to be reacting to Nobilis.  You hope it doesn't catch on?  Why on earth would you hope that someone else doesn't have a chance to enjoy a game that appeals to their sensibilities?  It's no skin off your nose after all.

!i!

[Pebbles and Marbles]

Look, I have friends I'd love to get playing RPGs, but they take a look at D&D (the best known example for the uninitiated) and shake their heads at it the way you seemed to be reacting to Nobilis.  You hope it doesn't catch on?  Why on earth would you hope that someone else doesn't have a chance to enjoy a game that appeals to their sensibilities?  It's no skin off your nose after all.

There seems to exist this notion, among gamers, that the range of possibilities within RPGs amounts to some sort of zero-sum game.  If games of one stripe were to be successful, it would only be at the expense of games that were of a different type.

Yeah, I don't get it at all either.

But it's there, and I think it's been spelled out quite explicitly around here, wherein this notion that these so-called "pretentious" -- and, Dear God, is that ever a hollow, empty descriptor -- games are somehow meant to destroy Gaming As We Know It.  If people were to engage in an RPG that didn't amount to Kill Things & Take Their Shit on some level...well, the results would be horrific.*

The funny thing is, I'm something of a traditional gamer right now.  My interest in RPGs is towards the D&D model, wherein the "game" aspect is heavily played up.  But I can't see how people not wanting that is hurting me.  At best, it's occasionally made it somewhat difficult, though hardly impossible, to find discussions about the play-style I like without the discussion going off on a tangent that I don't find interesting.  But, you know, that's the danger of engaging in conversation with other people: they occasionally put forward ideas that aren't exactly your own.  





* Nevermind that this belief is often accompanied by the claim that such games are so incredibly inconsequential that they're little more than vanity projects of their creator, that they have no influence on the RPG industry/hobby as a whole, &c.  Not to be picky, but I don't think it can be both things at once.  

[Ian Absentia]

There seems to exist this notion, among gamers, that the range of possibilities within RPGs amounts to some sort of zero-sum game.  If games of one stripe were to be successful, it would only be at the expense of games that were of a different type.

I have to wonder if there's some similar anxiety to RPGPundit's blunted juxtaposition of Noblis against Amber, as if the existence and appreciation of the former somehow detracts from the latter, as if there's only room for one of these games in this town.  Nobilis isn't Amber, and it doesn't stop anyone from enjoying Amber any more than the publication of RuneQuest detracted from the popularity and enjoyment of D&D two and a half decades ago.  Different games for different tastes.

Of course, what I think it really boils down to is simply a convenient excuse to bitch about R. Sean Borgstrom's writing style.  To which I reiterate my point from up-thread: State your postulate fairly and honestly or shut up.

!i!