TheRPGSite

(https://i.redd.it/qlq5v8ydzui81.jpg)

And yes, it's real:
https://archive.ph/vegSa

Oh, that article is a gem.  "Settler Colonialism"?  A fancy term for the reality of world history.  Just one look at this dummy's credentials says it all.

Quote from: Trond on February 19, 2022, 06:29:24 PM
(https://i.redd.it/qlq5v8ydzui81.jpg)

And yes, it's real:
https://archive.ph/vegSa

The "sentence" you highlight isn't even a sentence. In fact, the whole opinion piece fails to develop, support, or even really articulate, a thesis. I hope this isn't what passes for scholarly writing among grad students at the University of Pennsylvania (but rather afraid it might be).

Anyway, based on this piece, it's rather hard to say what this student's own point is, let alone what some broader "Left" might be "giving up on."

Quote from: Zirunel on February 20, 2022, 08:23:18 AM

Quote from: Trond on February 19, 2022, 06:29:24 PM
(https://i.redd.it/qlq5v8ydzui81.jpg)

And yes, it's real:
https://archive.ph/vegSa

The "sentence" you highlight isn't even a sentence. In fact, the whole opinion piece fails to develop, support, or even really articulate, a thesis. I hope this isn't what passes for scholarly writing among grad students at the University of Pennsylvania (but rather afraid it might be).

Anyway, based on this piece, it's rather hard to say what this student's own point is, let alone what some broader "Left" might be "giving up on."

It is a sentence. Taking out the unnecessary phrases, you still have "[The] belief is [a] component" which satisfies the requirements of a sentence.

Quote from: HappyDaze on February 20, 2022, 10:18:43 AM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 20, 2022, 08:23:18 AM

Quote from: Trond on February 19, 2022, 06:29:24 PM
(https://i.redd.it/qlq5v8ydzui81.jpg)

And yes, it's real:
https://archive.ph/vegSa

The "sentence" you highlight isn't even a sentence. In fact, the whole opinion piece fails to develop, support, or even really articulate, a thesis. I hope this isn't what passes for scholarly writing among grad students at the University of Pennsylvania (but rather afraid it might be).

Anyway, based on this piece, it's rather hard to say what this student's own point is, let alone what some broader "Left" might be "giving up on."

It is a sentence. Taking out the unnecessary phrases, you still have "[The] belief is [a] component" which satisfies the requirements of a sentence.

Not as written. Even though it happens to contain a verb, the entire passage is just a noun phrase. It is a subject, but it needs more than just a subject to make it a sentence.

It is quite possible that she meant to say "The belief in one's entitlement to freedom is a key component of White supremacy." That would be a sentence. However, the " that" turns it into a noun phrase.

Quote from: Zirunel on February 20, 2022, 08:23:18 AM

Quote from: Trond on February 19, 2022, 06:29:24 PM
(https://i.redd.it/qlq5v8ydzui81.jpg)

And yes, it's real:
https://archive.ph/vegSa

The "sentence" you highlight isn't even a sentence. In fact, the whole opinion piece fails to develop, support, or even really articulate, a thesis. I hope this isn't what passes for scholarly writing among grad students at the University of Pennsylvania (but rather afraid it might be).

Anyway, based on this piece, it's rather hard to say what this student's own point is, let alone what some broader "Left" might be "giving up on."

Oh, it is. And it's the same everywhere.  Saw a tweet from (if I recall correctly) a German physics doctoral candidate to Dr. Gad Saad. He provided some tongue-in-cheeck advice because her dissertation on the inflation of the early universe didn't include any information on how it negatively impacted leftists...  The poor woman was later forced to take down her tweet.

At this point "Left" is pretty much just a class marker.

Cheer on violence against political opponents? Yes.
Demand forced medical treatments? Absolutely.
Persecute people out of society for peaceful disagreement (or supporting them)? 100%
Idolize violent criminals and thugs? Sure.
Advocate sexual grooming & assault of little children? A-ok.
Celebrate foreign wars for profit? Hell yeah.

All because people on the "Left" want to be seen as good people by the evil monsters that run the propaganda mills.

Quote from: Zelen on February 20, 2022, 12:26:05 PM
At this point "Left" is pretty much just a class marker.

Cheer on violence against political opponents? Yes.
Demand forced medical treatments? Absolutely.
Persecute people out of society for peaceful disagreement (or supporting them)? 100%
Idolize violent criminals and thugs? Sure.
Advocate sexual grooming & assault of little children? A-ok.
Celebrate foreign wars for profit? Hell yeah.

All because people on the "Left" want to be seen as good people by the evil monsters that run the propaganda mills.

I'm sorry for not getting this, but when did they celebrate foreign wars?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 20, 2022, 12:46:57 PM
I'm sorry for not getting this, but when did they celebrate foreign wars?

Syria, four years of Russia!Russia!Russia! turning into the presently-unfolding Ukraine conflict, even to a lesser extent Afghanistan where a not-insignificant number of paid shills have advocated ongoing US military presence. (They call it "peacekeeping" or "human rights oversight" or some other euphemism.)

Quote from: Zirunel on February 20, 2022, 10:40:00 AM
Not as written. Even though it happens to contain a verb, the entire passage is just a noun phrase. It is a subject, but it needs more than just a subject to make it a sentence.

It is quite possible that she meant to say "The belief in one's entitlement to freedom is a key component of White supremacy." That would be a sentence. However, the " that" turns it into a noun phrase.

Sadly, it's not uncommon in WaPo articles these days. Even the WSJ, which was (and still is) the most tightly edited major paper, started to slip about 10 years ago. Basic copyediting is a lost art.

Quote from: Zirunel on February 20, 2022, 08:23:18 AM

Quote from: Trond on February 19, 2022, 06:29:24 PM
(https://i.redd.it/qlq5v8ydzui81.jpg)

And yes, it's real:
https://archive.ph/vegSa

The "sentence" you highlight isn't even a sentence. In fact, the whole opinion piece fails to develop, support, or even really articulate, a thesis. I hope this isn't what passes for scholarly writing among grad students at the University of Pennsylvania (but rather afraid it might be).

Anyway, based on this piece, it's rather hard to say what this student's own point is, let alone what some broader "Left" might be "giving up on."

Oh I agree with the first part, it's a butchered sentence.

On the last bit, this is not some random blog post, but WP found it to have enough merit to publish. On top of that, notice how quickly free speech became smeared as an "alt-right dog whistle". I should also add one more thing; I have had leftists on Facebook trying to smear and make fun of me when I pointed out that people in the American countryside value their independence and freedom. So I've actually seen this before.

The Left absolutely loves free speech.

You are FREE to speak whatever their narrative might be this week.

My dad lived through this behind the Iron Curtain. This isn't new for humanity and if Americans don't like it, then its high time to remember what the 2A is for.

If you don't like where America is going, here's your choices:
1) Red State Secession
2) Civil War
3) Submission to communism

Pick one and accept the consequences.

There's no voting our way of this mess because there is only the Uniparty and both Left and Right elite hate you. The Right just wants your money and votes while they choke back their total disgust for you peasants until they're re-elected.

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 20, 2022, 08:52:27 PM
The Left absolutely loves free speech.

You are FREE to speak whatever their narrative might be this week.

My dad lived through this behind the Iron Curtain. This isn't new for humanity and if Americans don't like it, then its high time to remember what the 2A is for.

If you don't like where America is going, here's your choices:
1) Red State Secession
2) Civil War
3) Submission to communism

Pick one and accept the consequences.

There's no voting our way of this mess because there is only the Uniparty and both Left and Right elite hate you. The Right just wants your money and votes while they choke back their total disgust for you peasants until they're re-elected.

  Speaking of white supremacist amendments...2A is on the list for sure. 
No civil war and no secession unless the discomfort gets a good deal worse.   It does seem with supply chain issues, inflation and tip toeing around a World War, that discomfort could be incoming.  I guess the Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times, " really was a curse.

Quote from: Pat on February 20, 2022, 02:39:56 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 20, 2022, 10:40:00 AM
Not as written. Even though it happens to contain a verb, the entire passage is just a noun phrase. It is a subject, but it needs more than just a subject to make it a sentence.

It is quite possible that she meant to say "The belief in one's entitlement to freedom is a key component of White supremacy." That would be a sentence. However, the " that" turns it into a noun phrase.

Sadly, it's not uncommon in WaPo articles these days. Even the WSJ, which was (and still is) the most tightly edited major paper, started to slip about 10 years ago. Basic copyediting is a lost art.

Fair comment. Everybody needs an editor, even people who have been writing for decades, never mind students. It should have been caught.

Quote from: Zelen on February 20, 2022, 01:21:09 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 20, 2022, 12:46:57 PM
I'm sorry for not getting this, but when did they celebrate foreign wars?

Syria, four years of Russia!Russia!Russia! turning into the presently-unfolding Ukraine conflict, even to a lesser extent Afghanistan where a not-insignificant number of paid shills have advocated ongoing US military presence. (They call it "peacekeeping" or "human rights oversight" or some other euphemism.)

Ironic. The left loves to claim how anti-war and anti-military they are. I really shouldn't be surprised anymore that the political parties are completely hypocrites without any consistent ideology.

Quote from: Zelen on February 20, 2022, 01:21:09 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 20, 2022, 12:46:57 PM
I'm sorry for not getting this, but when did they celebrate foreign wars?

Syria, four years of Russia!Russia!Russia! turning into the presently-unfolding Ukraine conflict, even to a lesser extent Afghanistan where a not-insignificant number of paid shills have advocated ongoing US military presence. (They call it "peacekeeping" or "human rights oversight" or some other euphemism.)

I think the other euphemism you're looking for is R2P. Once the Democrats (I can't call them the "left") latched onto that, they discovered -or rediscovered -  an appetite for foreign wars. But it takes some real revisionism or selective memory to pretend that the Democrats are unique in getting into stupid foreign wars. in addition to Afghanistan, which you mentioned, let's not forget Grenada, Panama, and Iraq (twice). Enthusiasm for stupid and often unsuccessful invasions of foreign countries isn't a left disease or a right disease, it isn't a Democrat disease or a Republican disease, it's an American disease. All parties are complicit, either in starting them or in continuing them.

Look at Iraq 2, surely the most egregious example in recent memory. Who in congress was in favour of that needless adventure? Just about everybody, either gung-ho loudly chanting U-S-A! U-S-A! or reluctantly but afraid of looking weak. Who opposed? Well, a lot of Democrats, but their opposition was confined to the vote. For ongoing, sincere opposition: what passed for the "far left" (Maxine Waters and Dennis Kucinich) and the Libertarian right (Ron Paul). Kucinich and Paul, unlikely allies, really found common ground in that but they were voices in the wilderness. They didn't have a lot of friends, left or right.

Nowadays, it does seem that scepticism about foreign adventures in America is more of a "right" thing (the right trying to forget how loudly they cheered such madness in the past), but even if it's a rather belated conversion, it's still welcome as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, how sincere is that conversion? I suspect a huge appetite for foreign wars is still lurking just beneath the surface, even on the right. Just waiting to be rediscovered. Check this out, from just the other day:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/candace-owens-called-for-the-us-to-invade-canada-to-stop-justin-trudeau-cracking-down-on-trucker-protests/

A call for R2P but from the right. Makes you wonder if anything has changed.

Quote from: Zirunel on February 21, 2022, 06:08:56 PM

Quote from: Zelen on February 20, 2022, 01:21:09 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 20, 2022, 12:46:57 PM
I'm sorry for not getting this, but when did they celebrate foreign wars?

Syria, four years of Russia!Russia!Russia! turning into the presently-unfolding Ukraine conflict, even to a lesser extent Afghanistan where a not-insignificant number of paid shills have advocated ongoing US military presence. (They call it "peacekeeping" or "human rights oversight" or some other euphemism.)

I think the euphemism you're looking for is R2P. Once the Democrats (I can't call them the "left") latched onto that, they discovered -or rediscovered -  an appetite for foreign wars. But it takes some real revisionism or selective memory to pretend that the Democrats are unique in getting into stupid foreign wars. Let's not forget Grenada, Panama, and Iraq (twice). Enthusiasm for stupid and often unsuccessful invasions of foreign countries isn't a left disease or a right disease, it isn't a Democrat disease or a Republican disease, it's an American disease. All parties are complicit, either in starting them or in continuing them.

Look at Iraq 2, surely the most egregious example in recent memory. Who in congress was in favour of that needless adventure? Just about everybody, either gung-ho loudly chanting U-S-A! U-S-A! or reluctantly but afraid of looking weak. Who opposed? What passed for the "far left" (Maxine Waters and Dennis Kucinich) and the Libertarian right (Ron Paul). Kucinich and Paul, unlikely allies, really found common ground in that but they were voices in the wilderness. They didn't have a lot of friends, left or right.

Nowadays, it does seem that scepticism about foreign adventures in America is more of a "right" thing (the right trying to forget how loudly they cheered such madness in the past), but even if that's a rather belated conversion, it's still welcome as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, how sincere is that conversion? I suspect a huge appetite for foreign wars is still lurking just beneath the surface, even on the right. Just waiting to be rediscovered. Check this out, from just the other day:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/candace-owens-called-for-the-us-to-invade-canada-to-stop-justin-trudeau-cracking-down-on-trucker-protests/

A call for R2P but from the right. Makes you wonder if anything has changed.

  You can say because the right cheered the madness in the past...I say its because the right tend to be the ones who actually pay alot of the cost of those wars (as in fighting in them) and have the advantage of hindsight later on down the road.

   There is a wave of populist thought, right and left, that is flat out finished with foreign adventures.  I has always been an American thing to dive into conflict after conflict.  I think enough of the public, especially enough that used to support such things (both in person and vocally) are done with them.   They say wisdom is knowledge with scars.  The people in America at this point should have enough of both to know to steer clear.  But I do not contradict that way too many in the country will still support some military action, mainly reason being very few in America ever have to feel the consequences of that action.   I think slowly there is a budding idea though, that we can just avoid foreign adventure.  I worry that since ALL media is for war, and most Americans think what the talking box tells them, the USA is going to get sucked into more bullshit. 

   The big wheels on capital hill make money from war, period.  So long as that is the case, there will ALWAYS be an appetite for war among political elites.  So long as they have the ability to push propaganda, I think the sickness will infect the nation for years yet.  Maybe some stateside consequences will cure that.   

Quote from: Zirunel on February 21, 2022, 06:08:56 PM

Quote from: Zelen on February 20, 2022, 01:21:09 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 20, 2022, 12:46:57 PM
I'm sorry for not getting this, but when did they celebrate foreign wars?

Syria, four years of Russia!Russia!Russia! turning into the presently-unfolding Ukraine conflict, even to a lesser extent Afghanistan where a not-insignificant number of paid shills have advocated ongoing US military presence. (They call it "peacekeeping" or "human rights oversight" or some other euphemism.)

I think the other euphemism you're looking for is R2P. Once the Democrats (I can't call them the "left") latched onto that, they discovered -or rediscovered -  an appetite for foreign wars. But it takes some real revisionism or selective memory to pretend that the Democrats are unique in getting into stupid foreign wars. in addition to Afghanistan, which you mentioned, let's not forget Grenada, Panama, and Iraq (twice). Enthusiasm for stupid and often unsuccessful invasions of foreign countries isn't a left disease or a right disease, it isn't a Democrat disease or a Republican disease, it's an American disease. All parties are complicit, either in starting them or in continuing them.

It is not an American disease. Most Americans don't care about anything beyond their borders. It's an establishment disease.

If it wasn't blindingly obvious before, the latest actions in Canada and elsewhere have made it eye-bubblingly obvious. The culture war is just a disguise for the real power struggle, between the establishment totalitarians who want a modern serfdom, and the scattered and disorganized masses who want at least a smidgen of privacy, or occasionally want to be able to do what they want without having to ask permission.

Quote from: Pat on February 21, 2022, 07:20:31 PM
It is not an American disease. Most Americans don't care about anything beyond their borders. It's an establishment disease.

I guess I can accept this to a point. Yes, an American establishment provides the impetus for all these foreign wars. But it's particularly an American establishment that has this habit. Not uniquely American, but not something you see so much in most other countries.

And it's an American electorate that time and time again enthusiastically jumps on board and rewards the establishment for that behaviour (perhaps precisely because they don't care about anything beyond their borders - the missiles are striking over "there" not over "here," so who cares).

So I'm sticking with "American Disease." But I do accept your point about an American establishment driving it all.

Quote from: Zirunel on February 22, 2022, 02:16:47 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 21, 2022, 07:20:31 PM
It is not an American disease. Most Americans don't care about anything beyond their borders. It's an establishment disease.

I guess I can accept this to a point. Yes, an American establishment provides the impetus for all these foreign wars. But it's particularly an American establishment that has this habit. Not uniquely American, but not something you see so much in most other countries.

And it's an American electorate that time and time again enthusiastically jumps on board and rewards the establishment for that behaviour (perhaps precisely because they don't care about anything beyond their borders - the missiles are striking over "there" not over "here," so who cares).

So I'm sticking with "American Disease." But I do accept your point about an American establishment driving it all.

  It was easier for the establishment to push when they controlled the organs of propaganda (all media).  But these days when you can see what the people in other nations think, see other perspectives, get a lot more details about what a conflict or prospective conflict is really about, etc with the internet.   Now that the MSM can not simply manufacture consent for a war among the people with constant propaganda, I am not so certain it is going to be an American thing moving forward.   I am starting to feel a lot less lonely with my stance of not exporting democracy via bullets and bombs.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 03:13:36 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 22, 2022, 02:16:47 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 21, 2022, 07:20:31 PM
It is not an American disease. Most Americans don't care about anything beyond their borders. It's an establishment disease.

I guess I can accept this to a point. Yes, an American establishment provides the impetus for all these foreign wars. But it's particularly an American establishment that has this habit. Not uniquely American, but not something you see so much in most other countries.

And it's an American electorate that time and time again enthusiastically jumps on board and rewards the establishment for that behaviour (perhaps precisely because they don't care about anything beyond their borders - the missiles are striking over "there" not over "here," so who cares).

So I'm sticking with "American Disease." But I do accept your point about an American establishment driving it all.

  It was easier for the establishment to push when they controlled the organs of propaganda (all media).  But these days when you can see what the people in other nations think, see other perspectives, get a lot more details about what a conflict or prospective conflict is really about, etc with the internet.   Now that the MSM can not simply manufacture consent for a war among the people with constant propaganda, I am not so certain it is going to be an American thing moving forward.   I am starting to feel a lot less lonely with my stance of not exporting democracy via bullets and bombs.

I'm also opposed to exporting democracy via dollars. The leaders of an obscene number of authoritarian states have been able to hold on to power because of "humanitarian" aid, which invariably flows directly into the pockets of the ruling elite. The US should lead by example, not coercion or bribes.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 03:13:36 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 22, 2022, 02:16:47 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 21, 2022, 07:20:31 PM
It is not an American disease. Most Americans don't care about anything beyond their borders. It's an establishment disease.

I guess I can accept this to a point. Yes, an American establishment provides the impetus for all these foreign wars. But it's particularly an American establishment that has this habit. Not uniquely American, but not something you see so much in most other countries.

And it's an American electorate that time and time again enthusiastically jumps on board and rewards the establishment for that behaviour (perhaps precisely because they don't care about anything beyond their borders - the missiles are striking over "there" not over "here," so who cares).

So I'm sticking with "American Disease." But I do accept your point about an American establishment driving it all.

  It was easier for the establishment to push when they controlled the organs of propaganda (all media).  But these days when you can see what the people in other nations think, see other perspectives, get a lot more details about what a conflict or prospective conflict is really about, etc with the internet.   Now that the MSM can not simply manufacture consent for a war among the people with constant propaganda, I am not so certain it is going to be an American thing moving forward.   I am starting to feel a lot less lonely with my stance of not exporting democracy via bullets and bombs.

I'm waiting to see how badly Joe fucks up Ukraine/Russia and if it leads to *any* kind of impeachment attempt.  It's always informative watching who votes which way and tracing back to who the puppet master is for each congressperson. 

Frankly, Biden should have been impeached as a result of getting out of Afghan.  He had an agreed-to plan established by Trump and all he had to do was follow it; but no, he even managed to fuck that up.  A war of his own making is coming, because of kompromat on him and the smartest guy he knows in their dirty Ukrainian deals.

Quote from: Pat on February 22, 2022, 06:52:20 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 03:13:36 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 22, 2022, 02:16:47 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 21, 2022, 07:20:31 PM
It is not an American disease. Most Americans don't care about anything beyond their borders. It's an establishment disease.

I guess I can accept this to a point. Yes, an American establishment provides the impetus for all these foreign wars. But it's particularly an American establishment that has this habit. Not uniquely American, but not something you see so much in most other countries.

And it's an American electorate that time and time again enthusiastically jumps on board and rewards the establishment for that behaviour (perhaps precisely because they don't care about anything beyond their borders - the missiles are striking over "there" not over "here," so who cares).

So I'm sticking with "American Disease." But I do accept your point about an American establishment driving it all.

  It was easier for the establishment to push when they controlled the organs of propaganda (all media).  But these days when you can see what the people in other nations think, see other perspectives, get a lot more details about what a conflict or prospective conflict is really about, etc with the internet.   Now that the MSM can not simply manufacture consent for a war among the people with constant propaganda, I am not so certain it is going to be an American thing moving forward.   I am starting to feel a lot less lonely with my stance of not exporting democracy via bullets and bombs.

I'm also opposed to exporting democracy via dollars. The leaders of an obscene number of authoritarian states have been able to hold on to power because of "humanitarian" aid, which invariably flows directly into the pockets of the ruling elite. The US should lead by example, not coercion or bribes.

  I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero.  I would say the same for the budget to maintain foreign bases, there should be no foreign bases.   If we are going to have "infrastructure" use those funds to allow the nation to function 100 percent independent of the world so far as things people need.   

Quote from: 3catcircus on February 22, 2022, 07:01:08 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 03:13:36 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 22, 2022, 02:16:47 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 21, 2022, 07:20:31 PM
It is not an American disease. Most Americans don't care about anything beyond their borders. It's an establishment disease.

I guess I can accept this to a point. Yes, an American establishment provides the impetus for all these foreign wars. But it's particularly an American establishment that has this habit. Not uniquely American, but not something you see so much in most other countries.

And it's an American electorate that time and time again enthusiastically jumps on board and rewards the establishment for that behaviour (perhaps precisely because they don't care about anything beyond their borders - the missiles are striking over "there" not over "here," so who cares).

So I'm sticking with "American Disease." But I do accept your point about an American establishment driving it all.

  It was easier for the establishment to push when they controlled the organs of propaganda (all media).  But these days when you can see what the people in other nations think, see other perspectives, get a lot more details about what a conflict or prospective conflict is really about, etc with the internet.   Now that the MSM can not simply manufacture consent for a war among the people with constant propaganda, I am not so certain it is going to be an American thing moving forward.   I am starting to feel a lot less lonely with my stance of not exporting democracy via bullets and bombs.

I'm waiting to see how badly Joe fucks up Ukraine/Russia and if it leads to *any* kind of impeachment attempt.  It's always informative watching who votes which way and tracing back to who the puppet master is for each congressperson. 

Frankly, Biden should have been impeached as a result of getting out of Afghan.  He had an agreed-to plan established by Trump and all he had to do was follow it; but no, he even managed to fuck that up.  A war of his own making is coming, because of kompromat on him and the smartest guy he knows in their dirty Ukrainian deals.

   I disagree about impeaching him.  I think anyone who watched any video of Afghan defense forces training knew that Afghanistan was going to fall in less than a month once the USA left.   I think it was the main reason no president wanted to be on the hook for leaving, because it can only end in a clusterfuck when the "defenders of democracy" you spent billions and billions to train seem to only want to get high and engage in Bacha Bazi, and are incapable of even doing push ups.   I DO hold Biden responsible as one of the shitbrains that voted to go into afghanistan though.  If anyone wants to impeach biden, seems a lot easier to just do so for him having serious cognitive decline.   Who ever was president on the withdrawal from afghanistan was going to have it collapse in record time.   "Freedom" is not something you can make people have, if they themselves are not willing to bleed, or die for it, they do not deserve it.  Simple as that.

Listen up you traitors!

There is NOTHING more important than defending Ukraine's borders while millions of illegals pour through America's southern border.

Now let's eat some ice cream and poop our diapers.

For democracy.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 03:13:36 PM
  It was easier for the establishment to push when they controlled the organs of propaganda (all media).  But these days when you can see what the people in other nations think, see other perspectives, get a lot more details about what a conflict or prospective conflict is really about, etc with the internet.   Now that the MSM can not simply manufacture consent for a war among the people with constant propaganda, I am not so certain it is going to be an American thing moving forward.   I am starting to feel a lot less lonely with my stance of not exporting democracy via bullets and bombs.

I am also glad for this change. I might not agree with you about some specifics like the Korean War, but I appreciate that more Americans are becoming opposed to our typical foreign interventions.

I'm not so sure this change is because media and propaganda have less power over the population, though. Outside of this specific issue, it seems to me that recently, people are more likely than ever to believe stories from their own political side. Because there are so many different versions of truth on the Internet, they are more used to rejecting stories that they don't want to believe. As long as an establishment can make a story viral, it will be believed.

In some cases, though, behavior is changing for the better. I hope this leads to less war-mongering by the U.S., which would be a good thing.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2022, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

Until you fix your government, any aid would be an invasion.

The Canadian government finally revealed how they know the Freedom Convoy is full of Nazis:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10540325/Woke-Canadian-MP-claims-Freedom-Convoys-Honk-Honk-catchphrase-secret-code-HEIL-HITLER.html

Canadians, be careful when you're visiting a playground! The toddlers playing with little trucks and going "honk honk" are undercover agents of the Fuhrer!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2022, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

  The reality with drugs, if the USA does not correct the issues that create a demand for product, there will never be an end to people willing to risk everything to provide said product.   I can not agree to sending money to Mexico to fix this, as I honestly think it will not be used to fix anything.  I am apprehensive to have a budget to destroy cartels too, because I think what ends up happening is the US government decides there will be one Crime family, destroys the rest and is more or less in business with the remaining drug runners.  Now this would bring a level of order if the the cartels are not fighting it out, but I do not think it reduces the corruption and influence of the remaining crime lords in business with the CIA (the CIA, as it exists if so fucked up it needs burning to the ground and restarting) and thus, institutionalizes corruption even more so in many ways and I doubt makes it any better for a Mexican citizen. 

   I think that whole disaster has gone on long enough that it would take monumental changes in both the USA and Mexico to do anything meaningful to cartels and the drug trade.

Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2022, 09:22:35 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 03:13:36 PM
  It was easier for the establishment to push when they controlled the organs of propaganda (all media).  But these days when you can see what the people in other nations think, see other perspectives, get a lot more details about what a conflict or prospective conflict is really about, etc with the internet.   Now that the MSM can not simply manufacture consent for a war among the people with constant propaganda, I am not so certain it is going to be an American thing moving forward.   I am starting to feel a lot less lonely with my stance of not exporting democracy via bullets and bombs.

I am also glad for this change. I might not agree with you about some specifics like the Korean War, but I appreciate that more Americans are becoming opposed to our typical foreign interventions.

I'm not so sure this change is because media and propaganda have less power over the population, though. Outside of this specific issue, it seems to me that recently, people are more likely than ever to believe stories from their own political side. Because there are so many different versions of truth on the Internet, they are more used to rejecting stories that they don't want to believe. As long as an establishment can make a story viral, it will be believed.

In some cases, though, behavior is changing for the better. I hope this leads to less war-mongering by the U.S., which would be a good thing.

  You benefitted personally from that war.  You should be in favor of it.   It did jack shit for the USA though, other than get Americans killed and spend money.   I am glad your father was able to flee from North Korea to a better nation.  How did he feel about socialism/marxism/communism?  Did he Urge you or your siblings to enter military service since US military force did so much to change the trajectory of his life and yours?

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:25:33 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2022, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

Until you fix your government, any aid would be an invasion.

A discreet seal team with a sharpshooter armed with one of those fancy rifles that shoot about a mile?

Honestly just find and seize their money. Seize their bank accounts, and burn whatever they have stashed in bills..

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 09:55:36 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2022, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

  The reality with drugs, if the USA does not correct the issues that create a demand for product, there will never be an end to people willing to risk everything to provide said product.   I can not agree to sending money to Mexico to fix this, as I honestly think it will not be used to fix anything.  I am apprehensive to have a budget to destroy cartels too, because I think what ends up happening is the US government decides there will be one Crime family, destroys the rest and is more or less in business with the remaining drug runners.  Now this would bring a level of order if the the cartels are not fighting it out, but I do not think it reduces the corruption and influence of the remaining crime lords in business with the CIA (the CIA, as it exists if so fucked up it needs burning to the ground and restarting) and thus, institutionalizes corruption even more so in many ways and I doubt makes it any better for a Mexican citizen. 

   I think that whole disaster has gone on long enough that it would take monumental changes in both the USA and Mexico to do anything meaningful to cartels and the drug trade.

You can't fix people, there will ALWAYS be demand for it, and I'm all for legalizing everything, but first you'd need to destroy the cartels.

I didn't meant gtiving money to my government, I meant the USA destroying the cartels, find and seize their money, destroy their supply, kill them all.

IMHO the cartels are a bigger threat to the USA citizens than some goat fuckers in the desert.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 10:24:11 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 09:55:36 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2022, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

  The reality with drugs, if the USA does not correct the issues that create a demand for product, there will never be an end to people willing to risk everything to provide said product.   I can not agree to sending money to Mexico to fix this, as I honestly think it will not be used to fix anything.  I am apprehensive to have a budget to destroy cartels too, because I think what ends up happening is the US government decides there will be one Crime family, destroys the rest and is more or less in business with the remaining drug runners.  Now this would bring a level of order if the the cartels are not fighting it out, but I do not think it reduces the corruption and influence of the remaining crime lords in business with the CIA (the CIA, as it exists if so fucked up it needs burning to the ground and restarting) and thus, institutionalizes corruption even more so in many ways and I doubt makes it any better for a Mexican citizen. 

   I think that whole disaster has gone on long enough that it would take monumental changes in both the USA and Mexico to do anything meaningful to cartels and the drug trade.

You can't fix people, there will ALWAYS be demand for it, and I'm all for legalizing everything, but first you'd need to destroy the cartels.

I didn't meant gtiving money to my government, I meant the USA destroying the cartels, find and seize their money, destroy their supply, kill them all.

IMHO the cartels are a bigger threat to the USA citizens than some goat fuckers in the desert.

  I agree about level of threat.  I honestly think it is a great idea on paper, but reality is once it is what is essentially a large police action on foreign soil, the CIA will be balls deep in it and it will end up so screwed up, I am not sure we could conceive just how bad it would be.   

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 10:28:44 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 10:24:11 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 09:55:36 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2022, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

  The reality with drugs, if the USA does not correct the issues that create a demand for product, there will never be an end to people willing to risk everything to provide said product.   I can not agree to sending money to Mexico to fix this, as I honestly think it will not be used to fix anything.  I am apprehensive to have a budget to destroy cartels too, because I think what ends up happening is the US government decides there will be one Crime family, destroys the rest and is more or less in business with the remaining drug runners.  Now this would bring a level of order if the the cartels are not fighting it out, but I do not think it reduces the corruption and influence of the remaining crime lords in business with the CIA (the CIA, as it exists if so fucked up it needs burning to the ground and restarting) and thus, institutionalizes corruption even more so in many ways and I doubt makes it any better for a Mexican citizen. 

   I think that whole disaster has gone on long enough that it would take monumental changes in both the USA and Mexico to do anything meaningful to cartels and the drug trade.

You can't fix people, there will ALWAYS be demand for it, and I'm all for legalizing everything, but first you'd need to destroy the cartels.

I didn't meant gtiving money to my government, I meant the USA destroying the cartels, find and seize their money, destroy their supply, kill them all.

IMHO the cartels are a bigger threat to the USA citizens than some goat fuckers in the desert.

  I agree about level of threat.  I honestly think it is a great idea on paper, but reality is once it is what is essentially a large police action on foreign soil, the CIA will be balls deep in it and it will end up so screwed up, I am not sure we could conceive just how bad it would be.

Yeah, you'd need to find a way to leave the CIA in the dark.

Then drone the fuckers, salt the earth of their properties, rinse and repeat till everyone is too afraid to even think of dealing in illegal drugs.

After that legalize everything.

But you're correct on one thing, most mexicans are too stupid to be in favor of USA armed forces operating on our soil. Even if it would mean a better life for themselves. Fucking pinkos.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 10:42:11 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 10:28:44 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 10:24:11 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 09:55:36 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2022, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

  The reality with drugs, if the USA does not correct the issues that create a demand for product, there will never be an end to people willing to risk everything to provide said product.   I can not agree to sending money to Mexico to fix this, as I honestly think it will not be used to fix anything.  I am apprehensive to have a budget to destroy cartels too, because I think what ends up happening is the US government decides there will be one Crime family, destroys the rest and is more or less in business with the remaining drug runners.  Now this would bring a level of order if the the cartels are not fighting it out, but I do not think it reduces the corruption and influence of the remaining crime lords in business with the CIA (the CIA, as it exists if so fucked up it needs burning to the ground and restarting) and thus, institutionalizes corruption even more so in many ways and I doubt makes it any better for a Mexican citizen. 

   I think that whole disaster has gone on long enough that it would take monumental changes in both the USA and Mexico to do anything meaningful to cartels and the drug trade.

You can't fix people, there will ALWAYS be demand for it, and I'm all for legalizing everything, but first you'd need to destroy the cartels.

I didn't meant gtiving money to my government, I meant the USA destroying the cartels, find and seize their money, destroy their supply, kill them all.

IMHO the cartels are a bigger threat to the USA citizens than some goat fuckers in the desert.

  I agree about level of threat.  I honestly think it is a great idea on paper, but reality is once it is what is essentially a large police action on foreign soil, the CIA will be balls deep in it and it will end up so screwed up, I am not sure we could conceive just how bad it would be.

Yeah, you'd need to find a way to leave the CIA in the dark.

Then drone the fuckers, salt the earth of their properties, rinse and repeat till everyone is too afraid to even think of dealing in illegal drugs.

After that legalize everything.

But you're correct on one thing, most mexicans are too stupid to be in favor of USA armed forces operating on our soil. Even if it would mean a better life for themselves. Fucking pinkos.

   Sounds like the Mexican government, or a state that really wants cartels gone (my understanding is some states in Mexico are much better at handling corruption than the federal government and do police the state for drug runners) needs to hire Eric Prince.  I have confidence he can, and will eradicate cartels.  If not him, a personality like him running a professional mercenary company.  What happens after that, I do not know.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 10:51:25 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 10:42:11 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 10:28:44 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 10:24:11 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 09:55:36 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2022, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

  The reality with drugs, if the USA does not correct the issues that create a demand for product, there will never be an end to people willing to risk everything to provide said product.   I can not agree to sending money to Mexico to fix this, as I honestly think it will not be used to fix anything.  I am apprehensive to have a budget to destroy cartels too, because I think what ends up happening is the US government decides there will be one Crime family, destroys the rest and is more or less in business with the remaining drug runners.  Now this would bring a level of order if the the cartels are not fighting it out, but I do not think it reduces the corruption and influence of the remaining crime lords in business with the CIA (the CIA, as it exists if so fucked up it needs burning to the ground and restarting) and thus, institutionalizes corruption even more so in many ways and I doubt makes it any better for a Mexican citizen. 

   I think that whole disaster has gone on long enough that it would take monumental changes in both the USA and Mexico to do anything meaningful to cartels and the drug trade.

You can't fix people, there will ALWAYS be demand for it, and I'm all for legalizing everything, but first you'd need to destroy the cartels.

I didn't meant gtiving money to my government, I meant the USA destroying the cartels, find and seize their money, destroy their supply, kill them all.

IMHO the cartels are a bigger threat to the USA citizens than some goat fuckers in the desert.

  I agree about level of threat.  I honestly think it is a great idea on paper, but reality is once it is what is essentially a large police action on foreign soil, the CIA will be balls deep in it and it will end up so screwed up, I am not sure we could conceive just how bad it would be.

Yeah, you'd need to find a way to leave the CIA in the dark.

Then drone the fuckers, salt the earth of their properties, rinse and repeat till everyone is too afraid to even think of dealing in illegal drugs.

After that legalize everything.

But you're correct on one thing, most mexicans are too stupid to be in favor of USA armed forces operating on our soil. Even if it would mean a better life for themselves. Fucking pinkos.

   Sounds like the Mexican government, or a state that really wants cartels gone (my understanding is some states in Mexico are much better at handling corruption than the federal government and do police the state for drug runners) needs to hire Eric Prince.  I have confidence he can, and will eradicate cartels.  If not him, a personality like him running a professional mercenary company.  What happens after that, I do not know.

I don't believe there's a single state that handles corruption, when you see them go against cartel X it's because they're in cahoots with cartel Y  >:(

Dunno who that guy is but I'm in favor of eradicating the cartels with extreme prejudice.

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:58:24 AM
The Canadian government finally revealed how they know the Freedom Convoy is full of Nazis:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10540325/Woke-Canadian-MP-claims-Freedom-Convoys-Honk-Honk-catchphrase-secret-code-HEIL-HITLER.html

Canadians, be careful when you're visiting a playground! The toddlers playing with little trucks and going "honk honk" are undercover agents of the Fuhrer!

Huh.

I don't know much about memes and secret codes and whatnot, so I can't really speak to that. Is there a there there or is she out to lunch? No idea. But I will say, a single backbench MP doesn't exactly constitute "the Canadian government."

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:25:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:58:24 AM
The Canadian government finally revealed how they know the Freedom Convoy is full of Nazis:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10540325/Woke-Canadian-MP-claims-Freedom-Convoys-Honk-Honk-catchphrase-secret-code-HEIL-HITLER.html

Canadians, be careful when you're visiting a playground! The toddlers playing with little trucks and going "honk honk" are undercover agents of the Fuhrer!

Huh.

I don't know much about memes and secret codes and whatnot, so I can't really speak to that. Is there a there there or is she out to lunch? No idea. But I will say, a single backbench MP doesn't exactly constitute "the Canadian government."

You're seriously entertaining the idea?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 10:20:08 AM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:25:33 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2022, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

Until you fix your government, any aid would be an invasion.

A discreet seal team with a sharpshooter armed with one of those fancy rifles that shoot about a mile?

Honestly just find and seize their money. Seize their bank accounts, and burn whatever they have stashed in bills..

Best I can do is $28 billion for a gender studies curriculum.

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 12:33:15 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:25:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:58:24 AM
The Canadian government finally revealed how they know the Freedom Convoy is full of Nazis:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10540325/Woke-Canadian-MP-claims-Freedom-Convoys-Honk-Honk-catchphrase-secret-code-HEIL-HITLER.html

Canadians, be careful when you're visiting a playground! The toddlers playing with little trucks and going "honk honk" are undercover agents of the Fuhrer!

Huh.

I don't know much about memes and secret codes and whatnot, so I can't really speak to that. Is there a there there or is she out to lunch? No idea. But I will say, a single backbench MP doesn't exactly constitute "the Canadian government."

You're seriously entertaining the idea?

I would say no, I am provisionally not seriously entertaining the idea.

I did try some googling and found  people saying honk honk was some pepe the frog thing meaning  heil Hitler from 2-3 years ago, long before the "trucker" protest. That may be where she gets it from. But I'm still uncertain whether it was just some trolling joke. So I dunno. And I don't care to drill down super deep into all that.

My gut tells me, even if a few protesters were in on some neo-Nazi " joke, " the rest of them ( just about all) surely meant honk honk just literally as trucks horns not some neo-Nazi code. But that's only my gut.

Anyway, my point is, a backbench MP, speaking as a backbench MP, almost never speaks for "the Canadian Government."

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:58:24 AM
The Canadian government finally revealed how they know the Freedom Convoy is full of Nazis:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10540325/Woke-Canadian-MP-claims-Freedom-Convoys-Honk-Honk-catchphrase-secret-code-HEIL-HITLER.html

Canadians, be careful when you're visiting a playground! The toddlers playing with little trucks and going "honk honk" are undercover agents of the Fuhrer!

I think my favorite was the white MP who claimed that the indigenous supporters at the convoy who had been interviewed didn't actually represent "real indigenous" people and were probably guilty of cultural misappropriation...

Quote from: moonsweeper on February 23, 2022, 12:58:44 PM

I think my favorite was the white MP who claimed that the indigenous supporters at the convoy who had been interviewed didn't actually represent "real indigenous" people and were probably guilty of cultural misappropriation...

Who was the MP?

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 12:34:00 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 10:20:08 AM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:25:33 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2022, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 10:11:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 22, 2022, 08:26:08 PM
I think the USA should have a foreign aid budget of exactly zero

There is no such thing as "foreign aid"

There is only the price for other people to do things that you want them to do.

Howbout a budget to destroy the cartels? I know my government doesn't want to because sovereignty (they line their pockets).

Until you fix your government, any aid would be an invasion.

A discreet seal team with a sharpshooter armed with one of those fancy rifles that shoot about a mile?

Honestly just find and seize their money. Seize their bank accounts, and burn whatever they have stashed in bills..

Best I can do is $28 billion for a gender studies curriculum.

Meanwhile over 60% of USA citizens ages 17-60 can't read for shit and don't get me started on Maths.

But hey, it's slowly becoming the same here! Grievance studies on the UNAM (Tax payer supported offcourse).

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:47:41 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 12:33:15 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:25:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:58:24 AM
The Canadian government finally revealed how they know the Freedom Convoy is full of Nazis:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10540325/Woke-Canadian-MP-claims-Freedom-Convoys-Honk-Honk-catchphrase-secret-code-HEIL-HITLER.html

Canadians, be careful when you're visiting a playground! The toddlers playing with little trucks and going "honk honk" are undercover agents of the Fuhrer!

Huh.

I don't know much about memes and secret codes and whatnot, so I can't really speak to that. Is there a there there or is she out to lunch? No idea. But I will say, a single backbench MP doesn't exactly constitute "the Canadian government."

You're seriously entertaining the idea?

I would say no, I am provisionally not seriously entertaining the idea.

I did try some googling and found  people saying honk honk was some pepe the frog thing meaning  heil Hitler from 2-3 years ago, long before the "trucker" protest. That may be where she gets it from. But I'm still uncertain whether it was just some trolling joke. So I dunno. And I don't care to drill down super deep into all that.

My gut tells me, even if a few protesters were in on some neo-Nazi " joke, " the rest of them ( just about all) surely meant honk honk just literally as trucks horns not some neo-Nazi code. But that's only my gut.

Anyway, my point is, a backbench MP, speaking as a backbench MP, almost never speaks for "the Canadian Government."

Originally the Honk-Honk was in reference to clown world, now it's in reference to the truck's horns.

Since clown world was to mock the progressives they off course equate it with notzees.

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:47:41 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 12:33:15 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:25:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:58:24 AM
The Canadian government finally revealed how they know the Freedom Convoy is full of Nazis:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10540325/Woke-Canadian-MP-claims-Freedom-Convoys-Honk-Honk-catchphrase-secret-code-HEIL-HITLER.html

Canadians, be careful when you're visiting a playground! The toddlers playing with little trucks and going "honk honk" are undercover agents of the Fuhrer!

Huh.

I don't know much about memes and secret codes and whatnot, so I can't really speak to that. Is there a there there or is she out to lunch? No idea. But I will say, a single backbench MP doesn't exactly constitute "the Canadian government."

You're seriously entertaining the idea?

I would say no, I am provisionally not seriously entertaining the idea.

I did try some googling and found  people saying honk honk was some pepe the frog thing meaning  heil Hitler from 2-3 years ago, long before the "trucker" protest. That may be where she gets it from. But I'm still uncertain whether it was just some trolling joke. So I dunno. And I don't care to drill down super deep into all that.

My gut tells me, even if a few protesters were in on some neo-Nazi " joke, " the rest of them ( just about all) surely meant honk honk just literally as trucks horns not some neo-Nazi code. But that's only my gut.

Anyway, my point is, a backbench MP, speaking as a backbench MP, almost never speaks for "the Canadian Government."

Your post is a perfect example of how to imply someone is a Nazi, while still pretending you're not calling them a Nazi.

My entire post was over-the-top facetious, and you're still taking everything I said at face value, like the part about the crazy MP speaking for the whole government. I understand that tone is hard to convey in text, but you couldn't figure it out from my warning about the dangers of Nazi toddlers? WTF.

These are middle aged truckers. They don't know about 4chan trolling attempts from years ago. Which was trolling, because that's all 4chan does. There's absolutely no basis for this, it's a ridiculous, cartoonish, and completely absurd attempt to slander a group of people by an absolutely despicable human being.

  There seem to be LOTS of secret codes no one knows about until it is convenient to mention them.  Seems almost like a great way to police speech and behavior.

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 01:18:23 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:47:41 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 12:33:15 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:25:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:58:24 AM
The Canadian government finally revealed how they know the Freedom Convoy is full of Nazis:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10540325/Woke-Canadian-MP-claims-Freedom-Convoys-Honk-Honk-catchphrase-secret-code-HEIL-HITLER.html

Canadians, be careful when you're visiting a playground! The toddlers playing with little trucks and going "honk honk" are undercover agents of the Fuhrer!

Huh.

I don't know much about memes and secret codes and whatnot, so I can't really speak to that. Is there a there there or is she out to lunch? No idea. But I will say, a single backbench MP doesn't exactly constitute "the Canadian government."

You're seriously entertaining the idea?

I would say no, I am provisionally not seriously entertaining the idea.

I did try some googling and found  people saying honk honk was some pepe the frog thing meaning  heil Hitler from 2-3 years ago, long before the "trucker" protest. That may be where she gets it from. But I'm still uncertain whether it was just some trolling joke. So I dunno. And I don't care to drill down super deep into all that.

My gut tells me, even if a few protesters were in on some neo-Nazi " joke, " the rest of them ( just about all) surely meant honk honk just literally as trucks horns not some neo-Nazi code. But that's only my gut.

Anyway, my point is, a backbench MP, speaking as a backbench MP, almost never speaks for "the Canadian Government."

Your post is a perfect example of how to imply someone is a Nazi, while still pretending you're not calling them a Nazi.

My entire post was over-the-top facetious, and you're still taking everything I said at face value, like the part about the crazy MP speaking for the whole government. I understand that tone is hard to convey in text, but you couldn't figure it out from my warning about the dangers of Nazi toddlers? WTF.

These are middle aged truckers. They don't know about 4chan trolling attempts from years ago. Which was trolling, because that's all 4chan does. There's absolutely no basis for this, it's a ridiculous, cartoonish, and completely absurd attempt to slander a group of people by an absolutely despicable human being.

This is false, 4chan also won the greatest capture the flag game ever, unmasked several antifart assholes, and has helped law enforcement on other occasions.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 10:17:18 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2022, 09:22:35 PM
I am also glad for this change. I might not agree with you about some specifics like the Korean War, but I appreciate that more Americans are becoming opposed to our typical foreign interventions.

  You benefitted personally from that war.  You should be in favor of it.   It did jack shit for the USA though, other than get Americans killed and spend money.   I am glad your father was able to flee from North Korea to a better nation.  How did he feel about socialism/marxism/communism?  Did he Urge you or your siblings to enter military service since US military force did so much to change the trajectory of his life and yours?

Like me, he's opposed to communism. He did not urge entering military service. He's a medical doctor, and would have preferred that his kids follow his example.

As for the effect of the war on Americans - I think especially in the modern era, countries are influenced by other countries. If we had been isolationist and done nothing to oppose Soviet imperialism, I think most Americans would be affected by the spread of Soviet influence. Complete pacifism and/or isolationism doesn't mean less war unless it is universal, because if enough countries are isolationist, then empires like the Soviets can conquer one country after another without resistance.

Going further, by saying it did jack shit for Americans - that implies that the correct motive for war is personal benefit. i.e. If a given war *did* mean profit for Americans, then should we go to war to get that benefit? I would say no, that's wrong. Even if it did benefit Americans, that wouldn't make it right. The question shouldn't be whether a war is profitable, the question should be about how to minimize war. I think that fighting back against aggression reduces war by making it unprofitable to start a war.

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
My entire post was over-the-top facetious, and you're still taking everything I said at face value, like the part about the crazy MP speaking for the whole government. I understand that tone is hard to convey in text, but you couldn't figure it out from my warning about the dangers of Nazi toddlers? WTF.

Ah. It was all a joke.  Thing is, no your post was not really distinguishable from the overheated manufactured outrage that is stock-in-trade nowadays. Even your Nazi toddlers add-on - which I hoped was facetious, and didn't choose to address - still looked like the usual commonplace ad absurdum extrapolation.

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
These are middle aged truckers. They don't know about 4chan trolling attempts from years ago.

There were relatively few truckers involved in these protests, middle-aged or otherwise. Most of the vehicles were SUVs, pickups, and, on the border blockades, farm equipment. And most of the participants were protest tourists who only showed up to party on weekends. But I agree, and said so, that most, surely, were not repeating old memes.

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
Which was trolling, because that's all 4chan does. There's absolutely no basis for this, it's a ridiculous, cartoonish, and completely absurd attempt to slander a group of people by an absolutely despicable human being.

Who is the absolutely despicable human being? Ya'ara Saks? In any case, yes in my brief dip into the trolls lair, I ended up confused about whether there was any there there. Like I say, I can't really speak to that.

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2022, 01:36:37 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 10:17:18 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2022, 09:22:35 PM
I am also glad for this change. I might not agree with you about some specifics like the Korean War, but I appreciate that more Americans are becoming opposed to our typical foreign interventions.

  You benefitted personally from that war.  You should be in favor of it.   It did jack shit for the USA though, other than get Americans killed and spend money.   I am glad your father was able to flee from North Korea to a better nation.  How did he feel about socialism/marxism/communism?  Did he Urge you or your siblings to enter military service since US military force did so much to change the trajectory of his life and yours?

Like me, he's opposed to communism. He did not urge entering military service. He's a medical doctor, and would have preferred that his kids follow his example.

As for the effect of the war on Americans - I think especially in the modern era, countries are influenced by other countries. If we had been isolationist and done nothing to oppose Soviet imperialism, I think most Americans would be affected by the spread of Soviet influence. Complete pacifism and/or isolationism doesn't mean less war unless it is universal, because if enough countries are isolationist, then empires like the Soviets can conquer one country after another without resistance.

Going further, by saying it did jack shit for Americans - that implies that the correct motive for war is personal benefit. i.e. If a given war *did* mean profit for Americans, then should we go to war to get that benefit? I would say no, that's wrong. Even if it did benefit Americans, that wouldn't make it right. The question shouldn't be whether a war is profitable, the question should be about how to minimize war. I think that fighting back against aggression reduces war by making it unprofitable to start a war.

  You miss what I mean when I said did jack shit for Americans.  Forty thousand dead.  One hundred thousand wounded.  All wars DO profit a very few people.  But the nation as a whole, no, the brave men get taken out of the gene pool.  As for your doctor father, well you do realize there are doctors in the military right?  Glad to see your dad was not willing to pay forward the massive sacrifice Americans made, with their lives, so he could have a better life. 

  I would also say, as we went over before, when a person is for war (that he/she feels is "moral") but has taken no steps to even enter military service at any point in his/her life... well I think you need to have a better grasp of what you are asking for.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 01:27:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 01:18:23 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:47:41 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 12:33:15 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:25:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:58:24 AM
The Canadian government finally revealed how they know the Freedom Convoy is full of Nazis:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10540325/Woke-Canadian-MP-claims-Freedom-Convoys-Honk-Honk-catchphrase-secret-code-HEIL-HITLER.html

Canadians, be careful when you're visiting a playground! The toddlers playing with little trucks and going "honk honk" are undercover agents of the Fuhrer!

Huh.

I don't know much about memes and secret codes and whatnot, so I can't really speak to that. Is there a there there or is she out to lunch? No idea. But I will say, a single backbench MP doesn't exactly constitute "the Canadian government."

You're seriously entertaining the idea?

I would say no, I am provisionally not seriously entertaining the idea.

I did try some googling and found  people saying honk honk was some pepe the frog thing meaning  heil Hitler from 2-3 years ago, long before the "trucker" protest. That may be where she gets it from. But I'm still uncertain whether it was just some trolling joke. So I dunno. And I don't care to drill down super deep into all that.

My gut tells me, even if a few protesters were in on some neo-Nazi " joke, " the rest of them ( just about all) surely meant honk honk just literally as trucks horns not some neo-Nazi code. But that's only my gut.

Anyway, my point is, a backbench MP, speaking as a backbench MP, almost never speaks for "the Canadian Government."

Your post is a perfect example of how to imply someone is a Nazi, while still pretending you're not calling them a Nazi.

My entire post was over-the-top facetious, and you're still taking everything I said at face value, like the part about the crazy MP speaking for the whole government. I understand that tone is hard to convey in text, but you couldn't figure it out from my warning about the dangers of Nazi toddlers? WTF.

These are middle aged truckers. They don't know about 4chan trolling attempts from years ago. Which was trolling, because that's all 4chan does. There's absolutely no basis for this, it's a ridiculous, cartoonish, and completely absurd attempt to slander a group of people by an absolutely despicable human being.

This is false, 4chan also won the greatest capture the flag game ever, unmasked several antifart assholes, and has helped law enforcement on other occasions.

You do not want to cross the 4chan autists. They fucked over the antifa thugs, yes, but they also literally got a foreign government to call in air strikes on a terrorist camp in Syria using Google Earth and a webcam. Doesn't get more epic than that.

Quote from: 3catcircus on February 23, 2022, 03:35:28 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 01:27:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 01:18:23 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:47:41 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 12:33:15 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 12:25:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 02:58:24 AM
The Canadian government finally revealed how they know the Freedom Convoy is full of Nazis:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10540325/Woke-Canadian-MP-claims-Freedom-Convoys-Honk-Honk-catchphrase-secret-code-HEIL-HITLER.html

Canadians, be careful when you're visiting a playground! The toddlers playing with little trucks and going "honk honk" are undercover agents of the Fuhrer!

Huh.

I don't know much about memes and secret codes and whatnot, so I can't really speak to that. Is there a there there or is she out to lunch? No idea. But I will say, a single backbench MP doesn't exactly constitute "the Canadian government."

You're seriously entertaining the idea?

I would say no, I am provisionally not seriously entertaining the idea.

I did try some googling and found  people saying honk honk was some pepe the frog thing meaning  heil Hitler from 2-3 years ago, long before the "trucker" protest. That may be where she gets it from. But I'm still uncertain whether it was just some trolling joke. So I dunno. And I don't care to drill down super deep into all that.

My gut tells me, even if a few protesters were in on some neo-Nazi " joke, " the rest of them ( just about all) surely meant honk honk just literally as trucks horns not some neo-Nazi code. But that's only my gut.

Anyway, my point is, a backbench MP, speaking as a backbench MP, almost never speaks for "the Canadian Government."

Your post is a perfect example of how to imply someone is a Nazi, while still pretending you're not calling them a Nazi.

My entire post was over-the-top facetious, and you're still taking everything I said at face value, like the part about the crazy MP speaking for the whole government. I understand that tone is hard to convey in text, but you couldn't figure it out from my warning about the dangers of Nazi toddlers? WTF.

These are middle aged truckers. They don't know about 4chan trolling attempts from years ago. Which was trolling, because that's all 4chan does. There's absolutely no basis for this, it's a ridiculous, cartoonish, and completely absurd attempt to slander a group of people by an absolutely despicable human being.

This is false, 4chan also won the greatest capture the flag game ever, unmasked several antifart assholes, and has helped law enforcement on other occasions.

You do not want to cross the 4chan autists. They fucked over the antifa thugs, yes, but they also literally got a foreign government to call in air strikes on a terrorist camp in Syria using Google Earth and a webcam. Doesn't get more epic than that.

Weaponized autism is a trully wondrous, terrifying and amazing thing.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 03:32:57 PM
  I would also say, as we went over before, when a person is for war (that he/she feels is "moral") but has taken no steps to even enter military service at any point in his/her life... well I think you need to have a better grasp of what you are asking for.

IMHO ALL politicians/urinalists/etc advocating/voting for war need to be either conscripted and sent to the front lines or have their most loved family member conscripted and sent to the front lines. In the hot zone, nothing of sending them to some place where there's no combat.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 03:17:25 PM
  You miss what I mean when I said did jack shit for Americans.  Forty thousand dead.  One hundred thousand wounded.  All wars DO profit a very few people.  But the nation as a whole, no, the brave men get taken out of the gene pool.  As for your doctor father, well you do realize there are doctors in the military right?  Glad to see your dad was not willing to pay forward the massive sacrifice Americans made, with their lives, so he could have a better life.

oggsmash, I feel the personal attacks on my father are a bit much. He was drafted into the military and went through training, but he was never put into action.

His not being put into action doesn't reflect on South Koreans in general in general, though. There were 140,000 dead South Korean soldiers and nearly a million civilian dead from the war. Tons of South Koreans did put their lives on the line to fight off the communists, including many volunteers. South Koreans also served in the Vietnam War - with over 300,000 troops serving there, which is less in absolute numbers, but is just as high a percentage of population as American soldiers serving in Vietnam.

The U.S. was responsible for the division of Korea into North and South, so I don't think it's fair to characterize the South Koreans as simply coming to the Americans for help. In effect, by forcefully taking control of the south, the Americans drafted the South Koreans into their proxy conflict with the communists. Once the communists invaded, though, yes, I think fighting back was justified.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 03:51:48 PM
IMHO ALL politicians/urinalists/etc advocating/voting for war need to be either conscripted and sent to the front lines or have their most loved family member conscripted and sent to the front lines. In the hot zone, nothing of sending them to some place where there's no combat.

GeekyBugle, you are advocating for military action against the cartels. Have you volunteered to serve in action against them? If so, what was the experience like? If not, isn't that at odds with your stance?

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2022, 04:02:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2022, 03:51:48 PM
IMHO ALL politicians/urinalists/etc advocating/voting for war need to be either conscripted and sent to the front lines or have their most loved family member conscripted and sent to the front lines. In the hot zone, nothing of sending them to some place where there's no combat.

GeekyBugle, you are advocating for military action against the cartels. Have you volunteered to serve in action against them? If so, what was the experience like? If not, isn't that at odds with your stance?

If our army, navy, police, politicians weren't in their pockets? I would have, since they are no I haven't.

Also I'm advocating for droning them, not for going into melee combat. Give me control of a few drones and I'll do it myself. With no remorse as to who gets turned into guacamole in their lairs.

Edited to add: You advocate for lots of "social justice" bs, have you donated your personal property? If not isn't that a contradiction?

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2022, 03:56:02 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 03:17:25 PM
  You miss what I mean when I said did jack shit for Americans.  Forty thousand dead.  One hundred thousand wounded.  All wars DO profit a very few people.  But the nation as a whole, no, the brave men get taken out of the gene pool.  As for your doctor father, well you do realize there are doctors in the military right?  Glad to see your dad was not willing to pay forward the massive sacrifice Americans made, with their lives, so he could have a better life.

oggsmash, I feel the personal attacks on my father are a bit much. He was drafted into the military and went through training, but he was never put into action.

His not being put into action doesn't reflect on South Koreans in general in general, though. There were 140,000 dead South Korean soldiers and nearly a million civilian dead from the war. Tons of South Koreans did put their lives on the line to fight off the communists, including many volunteers. South Koreans also served in the Vietnam War - with over 300,000 troops serving there, which is less in absolute numbers, but is just as high a percentage of population as American soldiers serving in Vietnam.

The U.S. was responsible for the division of Korea into North and South, so I don't think it's fair to characterize the South Koreans as simply coming to the Americans for help. In effect, by forcefully taking control of the south, the Americans drafted the South Koreans into their proxy conflict with the communists. Once the communists invaded, though, yes, I think fighting back was justified.

   I am not attacking him.  I am pointing out he seemed a less than eager to support the same military that saved his ass.  I have no idea where he stood over all, and for all I know, was against any more wars any where, as perspective from being close to one is apt to do.     You are pretending I characterized anything about South Korea at all, I did not anywhere.  I am glad to see they were willing to fight when people invaded them. Good for them, freedom costs, and it costs blood most of the time.  I only mentioned how much American blood it cost.  Why are you pretending I said something about South Koreans and characterizing anything, I was simply making commentary on your father's position, and only on the small bit I can discern from the information you have provided.   Since you want to paint this as America "owed" South Korea, I suppose America could have just let the Soviets have the whole thing, after saving it from the Japanese.   Would that be your preference? 

  Edited to add:  If you are going to bring up your father in 20 different posts as a pillar to stand on as to your beliefs, it should be expected for people to check on that pillar from time to time, as to what it is made of.  I am not for war, or military service, but I assure you, my son is also not going to be pushing for people to go die in other countries either.

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 02:58:06 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
My entire post was over-the-top facetious, and you're still taking everything I said at face value, like the part about the crazy MP speaking for the whole government. I understand that tone is hard to convey in text, but you couldn't figure it out from my warning about the dangers of Nazi toddlers? WTF.

Ah. It was all a joke.  Thing is, no your post was not really distinguishable from the overheated manufactured outrage that is stock-in-trade nowadays. Even your Nazi toddlers add-on - which I hoped was facetious, and didn't choose to address - still looked like the usual commonplace ad absurdum extrapolation.

Would putting the Nazi toddlers on Velociraptors be enough?

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 02:58:06 PM
Who is the absolutely despicable human being? Ya'ara Saks? In any case, yes in my brief dip into the trolls lair, I ended up confused about whether there was any there there. Like I say, I can't really speak to that.

The Heil Hitler MP.

This is an official in a supposedly democratic government making up an insane conspiracy theory so she can call her political opponents Nazis, and thereby justify using war powers against a group of almost entirely peaceful protestors. In a sane world, she'd be immediately disowned by her party and become the laughingstock of the nation.

  I have noticed one thing governments, especially lefties in these governments, really fucking hate is anything they perceive to be to the right of their position (and somehow freedom became a right wing position somewhere) having a protest, or hell, even showing up to a meeting in numbers.  Why are these leaders, these great souls, so terrified of the people they care so much about?

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 04:09:05 PM
Why are you pretending I said something about South Koreans and characterizing anything, I was simply making commentary on your father's position, and only on the small bit I can discern from the information you have provided.   Since you want to paint this as America "owed" South Korea, I suppose America could have just let the Soviets have the whole thing, after saving it from the Japanese.   Would that be your preference?

If the U.S. had not intervened, then there would have been no division of north and south, and there would have been a unified, communist Korea. In that case, no, I would not have advocated for war to de-communize Korea, just as I didn't advocate for war against Cuba or other countries simply for being communist.

I've known many people who grew up in communist countries. It sucks, but that has to be weighed against the 5 million dead from the war and the country divided. If I had a magic wand and could switch between that reality and ours, I'm not sure how I would choose. I think yes, I'd choose the no-war timeline, and urge changing communism peacefully as was done in Germany, Ukraine, and elsewhere.

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2022, 05:51:36 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 04:09:05 PM
Why are you pretending I said something about South Koreans and characterizing anything, I was simply making commentary on your father's position, and only on the small bit I can discern from the information you have provided.   Since you want to paint this as America "owed" South Korea, I suppose America could have just let the Soviets have the whole thing, after saving it from the Japanese.   Would that be your preference?

If the U.S. had not intervened, then there would have been no division of north and south, and there would have been a unified, communist Korea. In that case, no, I would not have advocated for war to de-communize Korea, just as I didn't advocate for war against Cuba or other countries simply for being communist.

I've known many people who grew up in communist countries. It sucks, but that has to be weighed against the 5 million dead from the war and the country divided. If I had a magic wand and could switch between that reality and ours, I'm not sure how I would choose. I think yes, I'd choose the no-war timeline, and urge changing communism peacefully as was done in Germany, Ukraine, and elsewhere.

5 million dead vs. 70 years of horror for half the country, with millions dying in the 90s alone because people ran out corn husks and pine bark to eat and had to resort to things with even less nutritional value, now doubled. And of course, one of the greatest economic success stories in human history erased, because South Korea wouldn't exist.

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 05:59:08 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2022, 05:51:36 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 04:09:05 PM
Since you want to paint this as America "owed" South Korea, I suppose America could have just let the Soviets have the whole thing, after saving it from the Japanese.   Would that be your preference?

If the U.S. had not intervened, then there would have been no division of north and south, and there would have been a unified, communist Korea. In that case, no, I would not have advocated for war to de-communize Korea, just as I didn't advocate for war against Cuba or other countries simply for being communist.

I've known many people who grew up in communist countries. It sucks, but that has to be weighed against the 5 million dead from the war and the country divided. If I had a magic wand and could switch between that reality and ours, I'm not sure how I would choose. I think yes, I'd choose the no-war timeline, and urge changing communism peacefully as was done in Germany, Ukraine, and elsewhere.

5 million dead vs. 70 years of horror for half the country, with millions dying in the 90s alone because people ran out corn husks and pine bark to eat and had to resort to things with even less nutritional value, now doubled. And of course, one of the greatest economic success stories in human history erased, because South Korea wouldn't exist.

So, according to oggsmash, I'm a warmonger who wants millions dead over my love of war, and according to you, I'm sacrificing millions dead just to not have war. I feel like I have whiplash over what I'm wrong about.

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 05:02:26 PM
Would putting the Nazi toddlers on Velociraptors be enough?

It would still be an ad absurdum extrapolation. Even more so.  And I still wouldn't choose to address it.

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 05:02:26 PM
justify using war powers

War powers? Wait what? That's a whole different and more expansive category of powers, which was not invoked. I don't think you understand what was and was not invoked there.

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2022, 05:51:36 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 04:09:05 PM
Why are you pretending I said something about South Koreans and characterizing anything, I was simply making commentary on your father's position, and only on the small bit I can discern from the information you have provided.   Since you want to paint this as America "owed" South Korea, I suppose America could have just let the Soviets have the whole thing, after saving it from the Japanese.   Would that be your preference?

If the U.S. had not intervened, then there would have been no division of north and south, and there would have been a unified, communist Korea. In that case, no, I would not have advocated for war to de-communize Korea, just as I didn't advocate for war against Cuba or other countries simply for being communist.

I've known many people who grew up in communist countries. It sucks, but that has to be weighed against the 5 million dead from the war and the country divided. If I had a magic wand and could switch between that reality and ours, I'm not sure how I would choose. I think yes, I'd choose the no-war timeline, and urge changing communism peacefully as was done in Germany, Ukraine, and elsewhere.

        The US intervening....you do understand the USA was in Korea to remove Imperial Japanese forces and settlers as part of an agreement with the Soviet Union  to remove the Japanese from Korea, once the Soviets declared war on Japan.  The USA also had withdrawn from South Korea in 1948, so I am not sure what you are talking about here.  It seems you are playing a bit loose with the actual history of the events. The USA was in Korea because that was the agreement with the Soviets (who decided to finally enter Korea once nukes were dropped on Japan) to get them into the fight nearly a year before to support them there.   Both the Soviets and the USA were long gone before the Korean war broke out.  So I am trying to figure out what sort of alternate time line history you are going off of here, where the USA was the reason the country was divided.    The main reason the USA was later to arrive in Korea, is because they were a bit busy cleaning up the Japanese who had conquered and owned Korea for 35 years, after spending 4 years fighting them brutally.  This was not some sort of USA ran over because the Soviets were there.  Both had agreed to enter together and made a treaty to do so. You also seem to leave out the USA was advocating for nation wide elections to unify the country under a free vote for whoever won, and the Soviets objected.   So when you say had the US not intervened?  What exactly do you mean?

  I will reiterate, I am with the founders...no foreign entanglements. 

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2022, 06:40:03 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 05:59:08 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2022, 05:51:36 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 04:09:05 PM
Since you want to paint this as America "owed" South Korea, I suppose America could have just let the Soviets have the whole thing, after saving it from the Japanese.   Would that be your preference?

If the U.S. had not intervened, then there would have been no division of north and south, and there would have been a unified, communist Korea. In that case, no, I would not have advocated for war to de-communize Korea, just as I didn't advocate for war against Cuba or other countries simply for being communist.

I've known many people who grew up in communist countries. It sucks, but that has to be weighed against the 5 million dead from the war and the country divided. If I had a magic wand and could switch between that reality and ours, I'm not sure how I would choose. I think yes, I'd choose the no-war timeline, and urge changing communism peacefully as was done in Germany, Ukraine, and elsewhere.

5 million dead vs. 70 years of horror for half the country, with millions dying in the 90s alone because people ran out corn husks and pine bark to eat and had to resort to things with even less nutritional value, now doubled. And of course, one of the greatest economic success stories in human history erased, because South Korea wouldn't exist.

So, according to oggsmash, I'm a warmonger who wants millions dead over my love of war, and according to you, I'm sacrificing millions dead just to not have war. I feel like I have whiplash over what I'm wrong about.

  Well, in your way back machine you leave out the soviets could have just allowed nation wide elections in all of Korea, and that would have been the end of it.  They did not.  I would also suggest, Pat likely is on your side in feeling some wars are Moral.  Though if math is your determinant for which is worse, war or just be commies....well....even I think you picked wrong on that criteria for this particular scenario. 
Edited to add:  But I will add my criteria would have been zero Americans dead in letting Korea go 100 percent dark side, so I would have gone that route as well.   Americans killed is pretty much my only metric.

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2022, 06:40:03 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 05:59:08 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2022, 05:51:36 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 04:09:05 PM
Since you want to paint this as America "owed" South Korea, I suppose America could have just let the Soviets have the whole thing, after saving it from the Japanese.   Would that be your preference?

If the U.S. had not intervened, then there would have been no division of north and south, and there would have been a unified, communist Korea. In that case, no, I would not have advocated for war to de-communize Korea, just as I didn't advocate for war against Cuba or other countries simply for being communist.

I've known many people who grew up in communist countries. It sucks, but that has to be weighed against the 5 million dead from the war and the country divided. If I had a magic wand and could switch between that reality and ours, I'm not sure how I would choose. I think yes, I'd choose the no-war timeline, and urge changing communism peacefully as was done in Germany, Ukraine, and elsewhere.

5 million dead vs. 70 years of horror for half the country, with millions dying in the 90s alone because people ran out corn husks and pine bark to eat and had to resort to things with even less nutritional value, now doubled. And of course, one of the greatest economic success stories in human history erased, because South Korea wouldn't exist.

So, according to oggsmash, I'm a warmonger who wants millions dead over my love of war, and according to you, I'm sacrificing millions dead just to not have war. I feel like I have whiplash over what I'm wrong about.

I suppose claiming to have whiplash is one way not to address a post.

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 06:40:59 PM
War powers? Wait what? That's a whole different and more expansive category of powers, which was not invoked. I don't think you understand what was and was not invoked there.

Learn to history. The Emergencies Act is a replacement of the War Measures Act, which was invoked exactly three times: For WW1, for WW2, and for a kidnapping of a politician in Quebec.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 23, 2022, 07:01:17 PM
Well, in your way back machine you leave out the soviets could have just allowed nation wide elections in all of Korea, and that would have been the end of it.  They did not.  I would also suggest, Pat likely is on your side in feeling some wars are Moral.  Though if math is your determinant for which is worse, war or just be commies....well....even I think you picked wrong on that criteria for this particular scenario. 
Edited to add:  But I will add my criteria would have been zero Americans dead in letting Korea go 100 percent dark side, so I would have gone that route as well.   Americans killed is pretty much my only metric.

I'm not sure I believe any war is moral, though sometimes it may be the least immoral choice.

The broader point I was making is that historical what-ifs have to account for everything. Selectively trying to reduce one bad thing while ignoring everything else that is lost or gained is the same reason why most economic thinking is garbage.

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 05:02:26 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 02:58:06 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
My entire post was over-the-top facetious, and you're still taking everything I said at face value, like the part about the crazy MP speaking for the whole government. I understand that tone is hard to convey in text, but you couldn't figure it out from my warning about the dangers of Nazi toddlers? WTF.

Ah. It was all a joke.  Thing is, no your post was not really distinguishable from the overheated manufactured outrage that is stock-in-trade nowadays. Even your Nazi toddlers add-on - which I hoped was facetious, and didn't choose to address - still looked like the usual commonplace ad absurdum extrapolation.

Would putting the Nazi toddlers on Velociraptors be enough?

Nope. I got told to change my avatar when I had it as a triceratops with a nazi flag on it's flank and machine guns tied to it's horns.
And I've had posters actually accuse me of being some kind of nazi sympathizer because of such an obviously ridiculous avatar.

Someone will take your obvious silliness seriously.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2022, 11:41:25 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 05:02:26 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 02:58:06 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
My entire post was over-the-top facetious, and you're still taking everything I said at face value, like the part about the crazy MP speaking for the whole government. I understand that tone is hard to convey in text, but you couldn't figure it out from my warning about the dangers of Nazi toddlers? WTF.

Ah. It was all a joke.  Thing is, no your post was not really distinguishable from the overheated manufactured outrage that is stock-in-trade nowadays. Even your Nazi toddlers add-on - which I hoped was facetious, and didn't choose to address - still looked like the usual commonplace ad absurdum extrapolation.

Would putting the Nazi toddlers on Velociraptors be enough?

Nope. I got told to change my avatar when I had it as a triceratops with a nazi flag on it's flank and machine guns tied to it's horns.
And I've had posters actually accuse me of being some kind of nazi sympathizer because of such an obviously ridiculous avatar.

Someone will take your obvious silliness seriously.

Just don't honk h-

<this user has been banned>

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 11:44:24 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2022, 11:41:25 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 05:02:26 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 02:58:06 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
My entire post was over-the-top facetious, and you're still taking everything I said at face value, like the part about the crazy MP speaking for the whole government. I understand that tone is hard to convey in text, but you couldn't figure it out from my warning about the dangers of Nazi toddlers? WTF.

Ah. It was all a joke.  Thing is, no your post was not really distinguishable from the overheated manufactured outrage that is stock-in-trade nowadays. Even your Nazi toddlers add-on - which I hoped was facetious, and didn't choose to address - still looked like the usual commonplace ad absurdum extrapolation.

Would putting the Nazi toddlers on Velociraptors be enough?

Nope. I got told to change my avatar when I had it as a triceratops with a nazi flag on it's flank and machine guns tied to it's horns.
And I've had posters actually accuse me of being some kind of nazi sympathizer because of such an obviously ridiculous avatar.

Someone will take your obvious silliness seriously.

Just don't honk h-

<this user has been banned>

Finally!

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 11:26:39 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 06:40:59 PM
War powers? Wait what? That's a whole different and more expansive category of powers, which was not invoked. I don't think you understand what was and was not invoked there.

Learn to history. The Emergencies Act is a replacement of the War Measures Act, which was invoked exactly three times: For WW1, for WW2, and for a kidnapping of a politician in Quebec.

Irrelevant. The War Measures Act was a different statute with different provisions and has been repealed.

The Emergencies Act does contain provisions for specific powers under the category of "War Emergencies," but the  "trucker" protest" was not classed as a War Emergency, so the "war powers" were not invoked.

Quote from: Zirunel on February 24, 2022, 04:13:13 AM

Quote from: Pat on February 23, 2022, 11:26:39 PM

Quote from: Zirunel on February 23, 2022, 06:40:59 PM
War powers? Wait what? That's a whole different and more expansive category of powers, which was not invoked. I don't think you understand what was and was not invoked there.

Learn to history. The Emergencies Act is a replacement of the War Measures Act, which was invoked exactly three times: For WW1, for WW2, and for a kidnapping of a politician in Quebec.

Irrelevant. The War Measures Act was a different statute with different provisions and has been repealed.

The Emergencies Act does contain provisions for specific powers under the category of "War Emergencies," but the  "trucker" protest" was not classed as a War Emergency, so the "war powers" were not invoked.

It's the clear successor. You can pretend it's not, but that doesn't change that the Emergency Act was designed to replace and expand upon the War Measures Act. This is indisputable, because the statutory language of the Emergency Act explicitly repeals its predecessor. More broadly, the act provides an overlapping set of powers in various kinds of declared emergencies, explicitly including war. So any shared powers are, by definition, war powers. Furthermore "war powers" is a broad term and not limited to the text of a single law, and encompasses things like martial law, and more generally the suspension of civil liberties or due process. Which has certainly happened.

You're sounding like one of those fake fact checkers. You've trying to reframe a general statement in a very narrow and specific way, so you can declare it's wrong on some minor technicality. But the only way that works is if you add conditions that were never in the original statement, and ignore all the other possible interpretations, including the three options I provided above.

  In any event it looks like the propaganda is going full bore to promote Ukraine as the "moral" side in this clash with Russia.  I just hope none of the US "military advisors" get killed while "advising" in Ukraine.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 07:46:01 AM
  In any event it looks like the propaganda is going full bore to promote Ukraine as the "moral" side in this clash with Russia.  I just hope none of the US "military advisors" get killed while "advising" in Ukraine.

Total shit show. Completely avoidable. Biden can't do anything because of kompromat involving the smartest guy he knows and their Ukraine dealings. Sanctions? There's this thing called called "shady governments know how to work around them." How much US taxpayer money was wasted in Ukraine? How many NATO "allies" will do nothing because they rely upon Russian oil after getting yelled at by Greta Thunberg and destroying their own energy self-interests as a result?

The sad fact is that the vast majority of the world's governments that aren't run by warlords or dictators are, in fact, run by grad school students with a 'C' average and delusions of grandeur.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 07:46:01 AM
  In any event it looks like the propaganda is going full bore to promote Ukraine as the "moral" side in this clash with Russia.  I just hope none of the US "military advisors" get killed while "advising" in Ukraine.

Hasn't Ukraine been wronged here? So what's the other point of view?

Quote from: Trond on February 24, 2022, 11:33:37 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 07:46:01 AM
  In any event it looks like the propaganda is going full bore to promote Ukraine as the "moral" side in this clash with Russia.  I just hope none of the US "military advisors" get killed while "advising" in Ukraine.

Hasn't Ukraine been wronged here? So what's the other point of view?

  From my perspective, a corrupt installed government has been rolled over by another corrupt guy/government.  If I see two gangsters fighting in the alley and one is beating the shit out of the other, well if you are in the life.....

   I think the whole thing is dirty and complicated, I think the USA did a regime change of their own in 2014.  So from a citizen's perspective, it seems they have been wronged at every turn.  Is Russia more wrong for them?  I do not know.  I do know when a corrupt dude gets put in charge after some dodgy shit goes on, and runs a corrupt government, at some point chickens come home to roost.  I mean, I do not see a moral side, as I do not know the true sentiment of the people living there as a whole.  All I know is Russia has its propaganda, and NATO has its propaganda. 

    To me, they could in fact be the "moral side" and it still will not matter to me, even a little, with regard to military support.  I think the wronged party  here is a corrupt government and the elite people in Ukraine.....how wronged the citizens are...I do not know.  I see alot of Russians in Ukraine fine with it, and I see alot of Ukrainians completely opposed.    So the issue is pretty muddy, and honestly muddy enough I would not support any military action at all, or really even sanctions to be involved with it.  Not USA business.  USA meddling might well be the trigger for the mess in the first place.  Might be time to stop meddling.

Today has been surreal for me. A series of small coincidences has let most of my family be outside of kiev this past month, so thats a small mercy. But my mother is still there.

As for Ukraine, the situation is complex and messed up. I don't want WW3 started over Ukraine. Its absolutely not worth it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 24, 2022, 11:51:39 AM
Today has been surreal for me. A series of small coincidences has let most of my family be outside of kiev this past month, so thats a small mercy. But my mother is still there.

As for Ukraine, the situation is complex and messed up. I don't want WW3 started over Ukraine. Its absolutely not worth it.

  I hope she gets through it unscathed. 

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:02:49 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 24, 2022, 11:51:39 AM
Today has been surreal for me. A series of small coincidences has let most of my family be outside of kiev this past month, so thats a small mercy. But my mother is still there.

As for Ukraine, the situation is complex and messed up. I don't want WW3 started over Ukraine. Its absolutely not worth it.

  I hope she gets through it unscathed.

Same.

Quote from: Trond on February 24, 2022, 11:33:37 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 07:46:01 AM
  In any event it looks like the propaganda is going full bore to promote Ukraine as the "moral" side in this clash with Russia.  I just hope none of the US "military advisors" get killed while "advising" in Ukraine.

Hasn't Ukraine been wronged here? So what's the other point of view?

Lenin shiped a lot of "Ukranians" to the gulags in Siberia and replaced them with ethnic Russians, the pro Russia separatists ARE actually ethnic Russians. And Ukraine refused to let them seccede.

Funny thing is the same assholes that want to destroy Spain by turning it into a bunch of smaller countries based on ethnicity are against the seccesion of those parts of Ukraine because Putin bad.

Since I'm a civic nationalist I think both instances are wrong, you may be a descendant from whatever ethnicity/race but if you live in México and have Mexican nationality you're a Mexican, and if you want to live under lets say Guatemalan sovereignty then move there.

But the truth of the matter is that the ethnic thing is just a part of this. Biden/NATO refusing to state that Ukraine would never be a part of it, the EUSSR destroying their energy industry and the smartest guy that Brandon knows and his dealings in Ukraine will play a bigger part in it.

If the EUSSR dares do anything then Putin closes the gas and they're fucked. Because even their electricity production depends upon Russian gas.

Brandon could dare send troops, because he's senile and his handlers are idiots/WEF infiltrators. this would cost the Dems the mid term elections. Hopefully right wing populists replace them on the House/Senate and stop the maddness.

China IS on the Russian side, censorship orders were "accidentaly" posted to some Chinese social media or the other. Nothing anti-Russian may be published.

What's the UK going to do? The COINOs are in the WEF pocket too.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:02:49 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 24, 2022, 11:51:39 AM
Today has been surreal for me. A series of small coincidences has let most of my family be outside of kiev this past month, so thats a small mercy. But my mother is still there.

As for Ukraine, the situation is complex and messed up. I don't want WW3 started over Ukraine. Its absolutely not worth it.

  I hope she gets through it unscathed.

Same here, praying for her.

Ukraines biggest natural resource is debt and its biggest national export is corruption.

I don't understand why anybody would want a part of it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 24, 2022, 12:15:28 PM
Ukraines biggest natural resource is debt and its biggest national export is corruption.

I don't understand why anybody would want a part of it.

To show force. Also Putin seems intent in recreating the Soviet Empire.

Before anyone says otherwise: the Ukraine military is corrupt, incompetent and mostly cowardly.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 24, 2022, 11:51:39 AM
Today has been surreal for me. A series of small coincidences has let most of my family be outside of kiev this past month, so thats a small mercy. But my mother is still there.

As for Ukraine, the situation is complex and messed up. I don't want WW3 started over Ukraine. Its absolutely not worth it.

My best wishes for your mothers safety.

Greetings!

Shrieking Banshee, my prayers are with you for your mother in Ukraine. Hopefully, she can get out of the country really soon.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 24, 2022, 11:51:39 AM
Today has been surreal for me. A series of small coincidences has let most of my family be outside of kiev this past month, so thats a small mercy. But my mother is still there.

As for Ukraine, the situation is complex and messed up. I don't want WW3 started over Ukraine. Its absolutely not worth it.

Sorry to hear about your mother, Shrieking Banshee. I'm praying for her and all the people in Ukraine, and hope they can be as safe as possible. Do you have a preferred charity for Ukrainian aid? It looks to me like United Help Ukraine is at least transparent and clear, but I don't have any Ukrainian connections.

https://unitedhelpukraine.org/

I'd want my contributions to be as direct as possible.

I'm sure no one wants WW3. The question is what is the best way to avoid it. It would be great if just not resisting Putin's invasion and doing nothing meant that further war was avoided, but my reading of history is that this won't be the end of it if that is the response.

Quote from: jhkim on February 24, 2022, 03:51:00 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 24, 2022, 11:51:39 AM
Today has been surreal for me. A series of small coincidences has let most of my family be outside of kiev this past month, so thats a small mercy. But my mother is still there.

As for Ukraine, the situation is complex and messed up. I don't want WW3 started over Ukraine. Its absolutely not worth it.

Sorry to hear about your mother, Shrieking Banshee. I'm praying for her and all the people in Ukraine, and hope they can be as safe as possible. Do you have a preferred charity for Ukrainian aid? It looks to me like United Help Ukraine is at least transparent and clear, but I don't have any Ukrainian connections.

https://unitedhelpukraine.org/

I'd want my contributions to be as direct as possible.

I'm sure no one wants WW3. The question is what is the best way to avoid it. It would be great if just not resisting Putin's invasion and doing nothing meant that further war was avoided, but my reading of history is that this won't be the end of it if that is the response.

  Oh it definitely won't be the end of it no matter what the USA does.  Taiwan is next.  The USA is an empire in decline, just like the Soviet Union was through the 80's.   The USA really just does not have the juice anymore to make the sort of difference without direct military action to change it.  Sanctions might work.  But I think they are not going to even be carried out by NATO, at least not all of NATO.  Putin can wait out any policy.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 04:16:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 24, 2022, 03:51:00 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 24, 2022, 11:51:39 AM
Today has been surreal for me. A series of small coincidences has let most of my family be outside of kiev this past month, so thats a small mercy. But my mother is still there.

As for Ukraine, the situation is complex and messed up. I don't want WW3 started over Ukraine. Its absolutely not worth it.

Sorry to hear about your mother, Shrieking Banshee. I'm praying for her and all the people in Ukraine, and hope they can be as safe as possible. Do you have a preferred charity for Ukrainian aid? It looks to me like United Help Ukraine is at least transparent and clear, but I don't have any Ukrainian connections.

https://unitedhelpukraine.org/

I'd want my contributions to be as direct as possible.

I'm sure no one wants WW3. The question is what is the best way to avoid it. It would be great if just not resisting Putin's invasion and doing nothing meant that further war was avoided, but my reading of history is that this won't be the end of it if that is the response.

  Oh it definitely won't be the end of it no matter what the USA does.  Taiwan is next.  The USA is an empire in decline, just like the Soviet Union was through the 80's.   The USA really just does not have the juice anymore to make the sort of difference without direct military action to change it.  Sanctions might work.  But I think they are not going to even be carried out by NATO, at least not all of NATO.  Putin can wait out any policy.

The sanctions will only push Putin into China's orbit, plus some other anti-western dictatorship. The kind Dems aren't willing to denounce because it's not the bad Russian man in charge.

The USA does have the juice, what it lacks is leaders not sold to either China or the WEF (if those are even two different things).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 04:20:49 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 04:16:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 24, 2022, 03:51:00 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 24, 2022, 11:51:39 AM
Today has been surreal for me. A series of small coincidences has let most of my family be outside of kiev this past month, so thats a small mercy. But my mother is still there.

As for Ukraine, the situation is complex and messed up. I don't want WW3 started over Ukraine. Its absolutely not worth it.

Sorry to hear about your mother, Shrieking Banshee. I'm praying for her and all the people in Ukraine, and hope they can be as safe as possible. Do you have a preferred charity for Ukrainian aid? It looks to me like United Help Ukraine is at least transparent and clear, but I don't have any Ukrainian connections.

https://unitedhelpukraine.org/

I'd want my contributions to be as direct as possible.

I'm sure no one wants WW3. The question is what is the best way to avoid it. It would be great if just not resisting Putin's invasion and doing nothing meant that further war was avoided, but my reading of history is that this won't be the end of it if that is the response.

  Oh it definitely won't be the end of it no matter what the USA does.  Taiwan is next.  The USA is an empire in decline, just like the Soviet Union was through the 80's.   The USA really just does not have the juice anymore to make the sort of difference without direct military action to change it.  Sanctions might work.  But I think they are not going to even be carried out by NATO, at least not all of NATO.  Putin can wait out any policy.

The sanctions will only push Putin into China's orbit, plus some other anti-western dictatorship. The kind Dems aren't willing to denounce because it's not the bad Russian man in charge.

The USA does have the juice, what it lacks is leaders not sold to either China or the WEF (if those are even two different things).

  No it does not, not to do anything to Russia that matters.  Russia is pretty much completely independent regarding their imports and economy (thanks to past sanction, they had to develop local service for local need) so sanctions might not change much even if adhered to. 

  I do think it has a lot more juice with China, but you are right about the leaders keeping their mouths shut on that one.  They are all making too much money the way it goes now.

Im thankful for little miracles because she is only there because my uncle got into a terrible skiing accident in Lvov (which is to the west). This caused tons of family members normally in Kiev to go take up temporary residence there. As a result while my mom is somewhat endangered, my uncles skiing accident got a whole bunch of people out of hot zones.
She should be out this Saturday by train.

Ukraine was always a ball of clay falling apart because the people there didn't really have anything in common outside of being conquered and grouped together. Its citizens resent it as a place and its one of the few countries in the world with a largely negative birth rate.

So there is no magic bullet to fix this. Even if ultra compitent soldiers dropped in to repel russia, that still leaves ukraine in a quagmire.

As for Russia: Its equivalent of a mafiadon amputating his right arm to take over a irriadated crack den. Many people there are panicking about being branded a 'Rogue State' effectively.

^ Good luck with your family.

...
Unrelated, the Trafalgar Group and the Convention of States Action conducted a poll on what Americans think of Trudeau's crackdown on the Freedom Convoy in Canada:
https://www.thetrafalgargroup.org/news/nat-issues-trudeau-approval-0221/

Two quick takeaways:

Overall, there's a high disapproval rate: 55%, vs. 35% who approve. But when only Democrats are considered, the approval rate jumps to 66%. Which suggests that progressives in the US, who already use their influence with private corporations to ban their political opponents from social media and payment networks, are also in favor of compelling private banks to freeze the bank accounts of those enemies. So expect them to push expanded powers of this nature in the US.

Secondly, 9.6% of Americans in general are unaware of the crackdown. But when only Democrats were considered, the number who are unaware of what is happening jumps to 17.1%. This tells us that the crackdown is being downplayed by the progressive corporate news.

Quote from: Pat on February 24, 2022, 05:04:04 PM
^ Good luck with your family.

...
Unrelated, the Trafalgar Group and the Convention of States Action conducted a poll on what Americans think of Trudeau's crackdown on the Freedom Convoy in Canada:
https://www.thetrafalgargroup.org/news/nat-issues-trudeau-approval-0221/

Two quick takeaways:

Overall, there's a high disapproval rate: 55%, vs. 35% who approve. But when only Democrats are considered, the approval rate jumps to 66%. Which suggests that progressives in the US, who already use their influence with private corporations to ban their political opponents from social media and payment networks, are also in favor of compelling private banks to freeze the bank accounts of those enemies. So expect them to push expanded powers of this nature in the US.

Secondly, 9.6% of Americans in general are unaware of the crackdown. But when only Democrats were considered, the number who are unaware of what is happening jumps to 17.1%. This tells us that the crackdown is being downplayed by the progressive corporate news.

     Shocker.  Massive tension on the world stage (and even if not WW3, if China and Russia manage to decouple 100 percent from the dollar....) prices soaring (because "American" values cost sometimes), economy in shambles thanks to fucked up government action, a growingly divided population.....what could go wrong? 

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 20, 2022, 08:52:27 PM
The Left absolutely loves free speech.

You are FREE to speak whatever their narrative might be this week.

My dad lived through this behind the Iron Curtain. This isn't new for humanity and if Americans don't like it, then its high time to remember what the 2A is for.

If you don't like where America is going, here's your choices:
1) Red State Secession
2) Civil War
3) Submission to communism

Pick one and accept the consequences.

There's no voting our way of this mess because there is only the Uniparty and both Left and Right elite hate you. The Right just wants your money and votes while they choke back their total disgust for you peasants until they're re-elected.

Lots of truth, right there.

Cue the music:
"The world is a vampire....."

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 20, 2022, 08:52:27 PM
If you don't like where America is going, here's your choices:
1) Red State Secession
2) Civil War
3) Submission to communism

1 and 2 are virtually the same because the elites can't afford to let the productive class escape. No one actually wants the SJW/Antifa/BLM crowd around once the conflict is over and that's all that would be left in Blue territory if secession were the end of it.

The only difference between 1 and 2 is who fires the first shot in Civil War 2.

Option 3 is also just choosing to be on Team Blue for the Civil War 2 Boogaloo because if even just 1% of the gun owners in the country decided to fight you'd have an insurgent force almost as big as our entire armed forces and a home field advantage.

My personal hope is for something closer to Poland's Solidarity movement that organized to bring down its commies without nearly the bloodshed.

  On a related note I decided to snag a shotgun the other day.  My father growing up was a huge gun enthusiast, and I shoot a bit from time to time, but because my brothers and father have literal arsenals, never really bothered to own a gun until maybe 10 years ago.   I completed the trifecta with that purchase (IMO everyone should have a rifle, shotgun, and handgun) and was honestly inspired to go ahead and snag one since I put it off so long and was grabbing a few other camping essentials.   I want a scout rifle too (.308/7.62x51mm preferred), but I can wait on that one.

    This seemed relevant to mention in this thread given what looked like a whole bunch of clapping by lefties in this country over Trudeau's actions, and I get a tingle that now rules to keep us "safe" from a virus are about over, rule to keep us "safe" from Russians are about to take deep root and grow like weeds.  I think some people have had enough of the bullshit rules, and if we get a whole lot of gasoline spread around (like a massive financial collapse thanks to global actions and bad leaders) it is only going to take a small spark for this country to be 3-6 new countries.