The Hobby Shop Dungeon Disaster

[RPGPundit]

Are you still standing by this, in light of Benoist's posts here?

I'm standing by the fact that this was a blatant use of the Gygax name to try to appeal to OSR grognards with Gygax-fetish.

[Benoist]

Benoist, thank you for posting!

For everyone else, check out Benoist's Twin Tankard maps!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1709227718/ernest-gary-gygax-jrs-marmoreal-tomb-campaign-star/posts/1913150

Thanks!

These maps took me a long time to bring together, but it was worth it. Heck, that's something I can say of most of the maps on the project. Each of them was a challenge in some particular way or form. The curves and small scale of the original Prismatic Maze, the layering of the combs of Ur-Shamath, going so far as to build the alcoves on graph paper and draw them over from scratch, ensuring that the map of the Shoko-Jumi area reflects the events and geographical elements of the Sammi-Zowa story, recreating the Outdoors Survival map but making sure it is original and specific for use with the Hobby Shop Dungeon, ... I mean I could go on. Each of the parts of the project have been a challenge in their own way, and I'm very very proud of the work accomplished so far.

Some of the latest previews I shared online:

Heraldry of the Duinnsmere Part 1
Heraldry of the Duinnsmere Part 2
Where I explain a little more about Demi-Human Heraldry
Updated Political Map of the Lower Midlands
Human and Demi-Human Population Density in the Lower Midlands

Ernie originally brought up the idea to renovate and reshape the Hobby Shop Dungeon and proposed the partnership to me, not the other way around.

As we worked together on the dungeon and the world around it on a nearly daily basis over Skype, pretty much living in each other's lives, we developed something truly special which then was introduced via Gygax Magazine as the firt level of the Marmoreal Tomb. From there, the events I recounted earlier led to that frontloading of all the maps, then doing all the writing in a single chunk now, which wasn't the original plan, but man what a journey it's been so far.

So two things from there.

First, the idea that the Marmoreal Tomb is some kind of cash grab should be ludicrous to anyone who's been paying attention to the love and care and hours upon hours of work that already went into this product. If we had wanted to do a cash grab, there would have been an infinity of ways to make it much simpler with immediate benefits for us: We could have had shadow writers doing design by committee; we could have just slapped the name on whatever and just not cared about it; I could have eschewed hours of study of the inner workings of the traditional game, the Great Kingdom, the original expedition play style and whatnot.

The idea that this here isn't a labor of love in which both Ernie and I have poured hours and hours of our time over years of revision and expansion is just blatantly ignoring the facts which I think are available to all at this point.

If the idea becomes that we're guilty of calling our line Ernest G. Gygax Jr.'s Hobby Shop Dungeon, even though Ernie is the originator of the dungeon and this is the central part of the whole work, then guilty as charged. Sure. We're guilty of naming things accurately and engaging in marketing, okay.

Second, we have worked on the whole project for more than five years now. Personally, it's become my creative life. The idea that I'd pour five years of my life on a near dayly basis with my friend and partner on something I would not see through to the finish line is bonkers, to me. I would have to have been out of my mind to agree to such a thing.

So no, I don't intend to walk off and leave things unfinished. I intend with Ernie to finish what we started and move on to the next chapter of this whole thing. It's going to take the time it's going to take, and we'll come through.

[Motorskills]

I'm standing by the fact that this was a blatant use of the Gygax name to try to appeal to OSR grognards with Gygax-fetish.

Assuming Benoist is accurate in what he says, he and Ernie worked on this for a long time together, suggesting it was more than just Benoist doing all the work, with a Gygax endorsement. (I am now sure how that is reflected in the current work division)

And even if so....hardly uncommon in other spheres. Tom Clancy was (is?) still pumping out books, years after he was dead.

Making Gygaxian overtures to appeal to OSR grognards is hardly a new thing, and well....impossible to avoid if your name is Ernie Gygax.


I would suggest that Benoist owes his KS backers that don't frequent this forum an update, the last was in October 2017. I would also recommend he consider using something like the Work-o-Meter from the OOTS Reprint campaign. Horribly late as well, but at least there was (is) transparency about what is left to be done.

[Ulairi]

If the product is good, who cares?

Pundit hates that the OSR is still tied to tradition.

[Benoist]

I would suggest that Benoist owes his KS backers that don't frequent this forum an update, the last was in October 2017. I would also recommend he consider using something like the Work-o-Meter from the OOTS Reprint campaign. Horribly late as well, but at least there was (is) transparency about what is left to be done.

I update backers on the comments section of the Kickstarter regularly. (Last response today, and four days prior to that). That said yes, I started putting together an official update which I will finish and post when I'm done on the main module. This will include what is completed, what remains to be done, etc.

[Motorskills]

I update backers on the comments section of the Kickstarter regularly. (Last response today, and four days prior to that). That said yes, I started putting together an official update which I will finish and post when I'm done on the main module. This will include what is completed, what remains to be done, etc.

Sounds good. While I don't have a direct stake in this Kickstarter, I am a fairly prolific backer, and projects that fail or struggle make it harder for everyone else.

[RPGPundit]

If the product is good, who cares?

Pundit hates that the OSR is still tied to tradition.

I'm a big fan of Frank Sinatra.

I'm not a big fan of people who go to see Frank Sinatra Jr. Jr. because they want to recapture something that's long gone.

[darthfozzywig]

Tom Clancy was (is?) still pumping out books, years after he was dead.

[Spinachcat]

If the product is good, who cares?

Pundit hates that the OSR is still tied to tradition.

The OSR has different audiences. The AD&D/TSR Revivalists aren't interested in new anything, but they are the hardcore. The mass of the OSR are really happy with nostalgia products being produced, aka the dozen retro-whatevers and look-alike adventures. Then there is the OSR faction Pundit supports most who are "the new creators" who take OSR ideas and weave new stuff, aka his own Dark Albion, and stuff by Sine Nomine, Venger Satanis, James Raggi, etc. As the OSR isn't a unified group, these factions aren't in lockstep.

But I agree, let's judge the final product on its own merits. Considering the quality of Benoist's work, I don't have a problem with the Gygax name being used to get his work seen by more people. That's just smart marketing.

[Merrill]

Fuck you.  You're a shitdribbling rumormonger.  There isn't a single word of truth in anything you write, including real estate prices.

Really? The average home price for Lake Geneva is $194,000+ according to Zillow. In Madison it is over 237k, and it is 170k state-wide. That includes outlying, very rural areas.

As for the other poster who said I was wrong about the mortgage info, I beg to differ. If you are self-employed and pay estimated taxes, etc. you could easily claim the Kickstarter income for 2015 (all $129,000 of it), claim other income from selling products (and receiving charity auction from GC, etc.), social security, etc. for 2014 and earlier, and use this to qualify for a mortgage. I have friends who are loan officers, and I know how the process works.

I have no proof Ernie did that, but it is pretty tough to buy a reasonably nice house in Wisconsin when you have no employment and lived with a roommate previously in an apartment that burned down. banks don't just give you a loan because your name is Gygax.

I won't judge the guy, but let me say this: I would never, ever, beg for money from strangers, or even people I barely know, even if I hit really hard times. I work hard for my money, stay out of debt, and have too much pride for something like that.

[Ulairi]

Silas,


Do you know how many years of income thy look at for a mortgage? They look at the sources of income. If the company is a partnership (I'm assuming it is a partnership or LLC) they will look at Ernie's basis.

I don't think you understand anything if you read something so stupid online and came over here to parrot it. I think you're a sad dishonest hack who came here spreading libel.

You have no proof you piece of shit because you're a lying loser. Get back into your mothers basement and stop spreading libelous bullsht because you're a terrible person.

You could have asked about the status of the product without spreading bulllshit. You decided to come here and spread bullshit because you either were an ignorant buffoon or you purposefully came here to libel somebody for no other reason than you're an asshole. Which is it you piece of shit?

Fuck you anf fuck people like you. Get back to your losers that make this shit up.

[Headless]

Or you know bow out gracefully.  Say something like 'hey good to hear no actual fraud has been committed but I'm still really steamed and reserve the right to be skeptical until my product is delivered.'

With respect to Erinie and Benoist you have a legitimate grievance.  But doubling down on your fraud claim ain't great.

[Apparition]

The sense of entitlement some people have is staggering.

[Merrill]

Silas,


Do you know how many years of income thy look at for a mortgage? They look at the sources of income. If the company is a partnership (I'm assuming it is a partnership or LLC) they will look at Ernie's basis.

I don't think you understand anything if you read something so stupid online and came over here to parrot it. I think you're a sad dishonest hack who came here spreading libel.

You have no proof you piece of shit because you're a lying loser. Get back into your mothers basement and stop spreading libelous bullsht because you're a terrible person.

You could have asked about the status of the product without spreading bulllshit. You decided to come here and spread bullshit because you either were an ignorant buffoon or you purposefully came here to libel somebody for no other reason than you're an asshole. Which is it you piece of shit?

Fuck you anf fuck people like you. Get back to your losers that make this shit up.

you are clearly a broke-ass loser gamer who has never applied for a mortgage

Yes, I know exactly how many years of income they look at for a mortgage--typically three, but it depends on the loan. Ever hear of a no-doc loan? Ever hear of a NINJA loan? How about a VA loan?

Ernie could easily have gotten a loan using the kickstarter revenue as declared income for one year and then his other income for two more years. Why do you think the financial crisis happened? Because they were giving loans to people who shouldn't have been getting them, and they are still doing it. I could call up a lender right now and use my credit score and assets to secure a loan with NO income verification. As a matter of fact, I did just that 12 years ago, and have purchased other properties since.

Learn something about mortgages before you start pretending to understand them. You have no fucking clue.

[Merrill]

Or you know bow out gracefully.  Say something like 'hey good to hear no actual fraud has been committed but I'm still really steamed and reserve the right to be skeptical until my product is delivered.'

With respect to Erinie and Benoist you have a legitimate grievance.  But doubling down on your fraud claim ain't great.

I never said fraud was committed. I said people who backed the Kickstarter were getting restless and rumors were swirling about Ernie's involvement.

I hope the Kickstarter is delivered soon, and that the product is great. I hope it doesn't turn into another Buckaroo Banzai RPG kickstarter.