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Author Topic: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words  (Read 1624 times)

Squidi

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2021, 12:37:53 AM »
Like the cave scene in Last Jedi
Haven't seen it...

Quote
I'd argue these aren't strong characters. They're entitled brats.
Well, the writers are. Captain Marvel was directed by two people who had done some television episodes nobody saw, and written by them and someone else with one writing credit to their name. How the fuck did these nobodies become the writers and directors of a $160 MILLION dollar movie? It isn't because they have special effects experience or because anything they directed had good reviews or made money.

The third person, just credited as a writer on Captain Marvel, had her first job being hired to rewrite the script for Tomb Raider. She helped with Captain Marvel. Now she's listed on Untitled Star Trek Series, Silver Saber, Gotham City Sirens, the third Sherlock Holmes movie, a Dungeons and Dragons movie, and for some absurd reason M.A.S.K. (part of the shared GI Joe cinematic universe). She wasn't even born when M.A.S.K. was a thing! She was born in 1985! I'll bet she wasn't responsible for those cringey 80s jokes in Captain Marvel.

Where the hell are these people coming from? How are they getting these high profile gigs with no, or almost no, credits to their name?

They write entitled brats, because they ARE entitled brats. While I'm sure they think they worked hard to get to their position of privilege and power, you don't jump to the head of the line without talent unless Harvey Weinstein asks you to sit next to him on the couch.

Rafael

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2021, 03:03:32 AM »
I was fascinated to hear Terry say that the only reason he has written so many Shannara novels was because of the fans asking him to write so many Shannara novels.  And that is a great point, when do you let a good thing go?

From what I understand, that's not quite true: Brooks wanted to move away from "Shannara" in 1993, the end of the "Heritage" series, and after the death of Lester del Rey. Then, Landover and Shannara were first optioned as TV shows, and the development of the Shannara video game (1995) prompted the creation of the (well-done) prequel "First King".

- But after that, with 2001 "Voyage" series, Brooks goes full corporate, intentionally turning his series towards more YA marketability. With that, most of his established readers start to faze out, and Brooks start to burn out. It's clear that he wants to end the series with "Straken" (2005): The ending you get there is probably even better than the very Saberhagen-inspired endgame we get in the "Fall of Shannara" series, fifteen years later. It's difficult to distinguish between the books after that, because very good ones alternate with very poor ones.

"Dark Legacy" is clearly not born from Brooks' mind alone, and written by corporate mandate to consolidate the MTV/"Shannara Chronicles" crowd; it has the distinction of being one of the worst fantasy series ever written by one of the "big name" authors. It's certainly not fan service, it's "we need another sequel, Terry". - If you want to make yourself suffer, this weekend, check out the books on Amazon; I dare you to make it even through the first, free chapter. Like, no hyperbole - I dare you.  :D

Thankfully, Brooks stops giving a crap after that, and returns to doing his own thing: His "Shannara" novels after that are still marred by bad and publisher-mandated decisionmaking, but at least they're not terrible. The Darkling Child is Brooks' best book of the 2010s, and if it wasn't framed by "Dark Legacy" (terrible) and "Fall" (almost as terrible), this would be one that people talked about.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 03:08:10 AM by Rafael »
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Shasarak

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2021, 05:00:01 AM »
I was fascinated to hear Terry say that the only reason he has written so many Shannara novels was because of the fans asking him to write so many Shannara novels.  And that is a great point, when do you let a good thing go?

From what I understand, that's not quite true: Brooks wanted to move away from "Shannara" in 1993, the end of the "Heritage" series, and after the death of Lester del Rey. Then, Landover and Shannara were first optioned as TV shows, and the development of the Shannara video game (1995) prompted the creation of the (well-done) prequel "First King".

- But after that, with 2001 "Voyage" series, Brooks goes full corporate, intentionally turning his series towards more YA marketability. With that, most of his established readers start to faze out, and Brooks start to burn out. It's clear that he wants to end the series with "Straken" (2005): The ending you get there is probably even better than the very Saberhagen-inspired endgame we get in the "Fall of Shannara" series, fifteen years later. It's difficult to distinguish between the books after that, because very good ones alternate with very poor ones.

"Dark Legacy" is clearly not born from Brooks' mind alone, and written by corporate mandate to consolidate the MTV/"Shannara Chronicles" crowd; it has the distinction of being one of the worst fantasy series ever written by one of the "big name" authors. It's certainly not fan service, it's "we need another sequel, Terry". - If you want to make yourself suffer, this weekend, check out the books on Amazon; I dare you to make it even through the first, free chapter. Like, no hyperbole - I dare you.  :D

Thankfully, Brooks stops giving a crap after that, and returns to doing his own thing: His "Shannara" novels after that are still marred by bad and publisher-mandated decisionmaking, but at least they're not terrible. The Darkling Child is Brooks' best book of the 2010s, and if it wasn't framed by "Dark Legacy" (terrible) and "Fall" (almost as terrible), this would be one that people talked about.

The Dark Legacy books did seem weak but it was the Defenders of Shannara that really finished the series for me.

Maybe he was suffering from the no editor syndrome that can happen when an author gets famous.  Not enough push back on bad plot and lack of script tightening.  Who knows.
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look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Ratman_tf

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2021, 08:06:57 AM »
Where the hell are these people coming from? How are they getting these high profile gigs with no, or almost no, credits to their name?

I suspect nepotism. Not that that would be unusual, but friends helping friends would mean clusters of SJW types helping each other means a specific type of people are getting into the industry and, well, here we are.
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Rafael

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2021, 08:08:53 AM »
The Dark Legacy books did seem weak but it was the Defenders of Shannara that really finished the series for me.

Maybe he was suffering from the no editor syndrome that can happen when an author gets famous.  Not enough push back on bad plot and lack of script tightening.  Who knows.

The first "Defenders" was actually based on the (wisely) discarded outline for the original sequel to "Sword", IIRC. I didn't like it all too much, and the third act of the book was really poorly done. The second book, though, with Reyn Frosch, and other "street level" characters, I loved like I haven't loved any of the "Shannara" books since the nineties. - Not quite sure why, just struck a chord with me.

Brooks has actually addressed the editing situation as candidly as he perhaps can: Basically, he personally and understandably gravitates towards more adult themes - the serial killer Ohmsford we get in "Fall", the negative side of the radioactive poisoning that the "Four Lands" are still suffering from, PTSD like with Cogline, or the concept of a sword-wielding monster hunter รก la Witcher "The Druid's Blade".

...And more often than not, his publishers, who see "Shannara" as a primarily YA-oriented brand, and who insist on him including a couple of core elements in his books - like the "Harry Potter"-ization of the Druids in the Grianne novels, or the ersatz-Daenerys we got in "Fall" - flat out tell him that a certain idea can't be in the books. And so he discards it, and uses one of their suggestions instead.

This seems to have gotten only marginally better after the MTV series bombed, but has been the mark on Brooks' books since he renewed his contract with DelRey in around 2000. To get him "off the record" on how he really thinks about being locked in a contract where other folks can essentially dictate him what to put in his books, one of my dreams as a fanboy of fantasy literature.

--- Seems to be modern publishing practice in the US, though: The Dragonlance lawsuit from last year seemed to have a similar problem at its core - "publisher veto", like we're living in the freaking 19th century.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 08:12:47 AM by Rafael »
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FelixGamingX1

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2021, 09:11:10 AM »
So here's the thing. The woke, sjw, bigots, and zealots will eventually takeover the hobby. Not because they were smarter in any way. I personally compare their state of mind to a infirm person. The reason why they'll succeed is because you guys aren't supporting writers who just want to make games. I'm not implying you should buy my games, I'm just saying if you really wanted to keep the hobby healthy like it used to be. You shouldn't be afraid of supporting authors who believe in old school gaming. Even if they made the worst games. More and more publishers gave up morality for profits a long time ago. What's happening to the world is literally the work of satan. Start paying more attention to indie devs because if there's hope, it's with them. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 09:13:46 AM by FelixGamingX1 »
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Ghostmaker

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2021, 05:15:34 PM »
In Terry's defense, nothing makes 'write more of this plz' look quite as good as big bags of money.

That was what happened with Sherlock Holmes, after all. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wanted to write something else, tried to kill Sherlock off, and the publishing houses threw money at him until he gave in and wrote some more.

Shasarak

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2021, 06:29:18 PM »
In Terry's defense, nothing makes 'write more of this plz' look quite as good as big bags of money.

That was what happened with Sherlock Holmes, after all. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wanted to write something else, tried to kill Sherlock off, and the publishing houses threw money at him until he gave in and wrote some more.

I always thought that it was the big bags of money so that is why it was interesting to hear that the fans clamouring for more Shannara also was a big reason why he kept on going.
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Rafael

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2021, 07:00:17 AM »
In Terry's defense, nothing makes 'write more of this plz' look quite as good as big bags of money.

I also think this had more to with monetary calculations than with fan demand to be honest - especially in the early phases of the internet, Shannara had a very small online following, and the reviews of the "Grianne Cycle" - "Isle Witch", and onward - were rather negative. That said, it's entirely possible that this is one of the cases when success simply wasn't televised:

Brooks is credited as selling something about 60-80 mio. books in the "Shannara" franchise, IIRC. How that is distributed between the 30-something novels and stories, another matter, but still - he has done what other writers with more vocal followings have not managed to do. Also, the pacing of the franchise is exemplary: With the exception of Weiss and Hickman, Jordan, and possibly Tad Williams, Brooks is about the only author from his era that has remained relevant in terms of success, and of fandom. - Like, sure, Glenn Cook, Ray Feist, Mercedes Lackey, Elizabeth Moon, they're luckily all still around and writing. But they have to define success differently than Brooks does it.

FWIW, Brooks has hinted several times that he has an exclusivity contract with Del Rey that is about as "Champions League"-y as you can get: DelRey has exclusive rights to all things "Shannara" - but the contract is not limited to any number of books. That suggests sales stayed quite high, up until the end of the series last year.
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Thorn Drumheller

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2021, 05:20:59 PM »
I have not read any of Peters books but he sounds really slimy in this video.

But at least he made sure that 50% of his characters were female.

Yeah, agreed. Glad I never read any of his stuff. I watched the video and after them saying it's a make believe world he has to say that at least 50% of his characters are female. wow
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Shasarak

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2021, 05:42:35 PM »
I have not read any of Peters books but he sounds really slimy in this video.

But at least he made sure that 50% of his characters were female.

Yeah, agreed. Glad I never read any of his stuff. I watched the video and after them saying it's a make believe world he has to say that at least 50% of his characters are female. wow

Playing through the Paizo adventure path my players have never had to kill so many evil white female slavers.

Because diversity!
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Trond

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2021, 06:42:44 PM »

Playing through the Paizo adventure path my players have never had to kill so many evil white female slavers.

Because diversity!

Let's write a "think piece" on how disposable evil characters in entertainment have been male-dominated for too long. Suggest we go all out and make games and movies with heaps of female cannon fodder. Let's see how it goes down.

Shasarak

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2021, 06:56:18 PM »

Playing through the Paizo adventure path my players have never had to kill so many evil white female slavers.

Because diversity!

Let's write a "think piece" on how disposable evil characters in entertainment have been male-dominated for too long. Suggest we go all out and make games and movies with heaps of female cannon fodder. Let's see how it goes down.

Trond you do understand that at least 50% of people are female.

So I predict sunshine and puppies!
There will be poor always,
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look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2021, 11:40:15 PM »

Playing through the Paizo adventure path my players have never had to kill so many evil white female slavers.

Because diversity!

Let's write a "think piece" on how disposable evil characters in entertainment have been male-dominated for too long. Suggest we go all out and make games and movies with heaps of female cannon fodder. Let's see how it goes down.

I agree. Villians have been male dominated way too long. How bout we have a race of elves, and they're skin is so dark as to almost absorb light. And lets make them a female dominated society, almost matriarchal really. To top it off their main deity is female and demands males be subservient.....nah..... too far fetched for me even /s
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Shasarak

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Re: Terry Brooks and Peter V Brett on cancel culture, in the mildest of words
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2021, 12:21:16 AM »

Playing through the Paizo adventure path my players have never had to kill so many evil white female slavers.

Because diversity!

Let's write a "think piece" on how disposable evil characters in entertainment have been male-dominated for too long. Suggest we go all out and make games and movies with heaps of female cannon fodder. Let's see how it goes down.

I agree. Villians have been male dominated way too long. How bout we have a race of elves, and they're skin is so dark as to almost absorb light. And lets make them a female dominated society, almost matriarchal really. To top it off their main deity is female and demands males be subservient.....nah..... too far fetched for me even /s

Do you mean like the ones based on Norse mythology?

Or is it more like the Black Orcs who are Black because Blacks are Bad and Black Orcs are really Black people?
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus