Swinewatch UK

[flyingmice]

I'm with Balbinus.

I don't feel threatened at all by any new style of RPG and welcome diversity. The ratio of good/bad games seems to be pretty much the same in all "camps" anyway.

Also, I question why Malcolm was given the middle finger rabidly for an extremely inoffensive, polite and rational intervention. Once again, a designer was "welcomed" to RPGsite. Are you trying to scare off as many publishers, designers and authors as possible?

"I liked A/State but I don't like it anymore and I don't like you either... I'm going home with my toys!"

What. The. Fuck?

In this case, that was just one person, not the dogpile like with John Wick. This case isn't a site problem. The other one was.

-clash

[James J Skach]

I don't feel threatened at all by any new style of RPG and welcome diversity. The ratio of good/bad games seems to be pretty much the same in all "camps" anyway.

This is a straw man I've seen too many times.

I do not like the Forge.  I reserve decision on CE, if I even have the time to investigate. But the thing I rarely hear is that someone feels threatened by new games/designs or gaming diversity.

The "war," such as it is, seems more about how a group has taken to offending a large mass of "traditional" gamers, often without even realizing it. This gets compounded by the subsequent exchange that leads to more vitrioloic rhetoric. This is further invigorated by the sense that some people seem to have that their theory describes all gaming and thus defines the means and modes of fun - which is pretty much impossible and doomed to insult someone along the way. When called on it, the defensive reaction fills the air with yet more vitriol.

I don't see an end.  There will be lulls during which nobody will say anything particularly insulting to the other group(s).  Eventually, someone will stir the pot, possibly unintentionally, and it will begin anew.

At first blush, the CE guys look like a group of guys who design games.  I've yet to hear some Unified Theory of Gaming from them. So I'm more interested in getting them to discuss their process than I am in inciting yet another front in the Great RPG War of Ought7. To the extent that they choose to use Forge theory/terms in explaining their games and design processes will inform my opinion of them.

(EDIT used here instead of hear)

[Consonant Dude]

This is a straw man I've seen too many times.

I do not like the Forge.  I reserve decision on CE, if I even have the time to investigate. But the thing I rarely hear is that someone feels threatened by new games/designs or gaming diversity.

I don't hear it either but the way some people are behaving, they sure look like they feel threatened. I mean, just look at this thread. "Swinewatch UK".

[David R]

There is no war. The Forge/theory(of any kind) has never been a threat to trad gaming. Most folks haver never even heard of the Forge. It's pathethic really, the only place this so-called war really matters in on a few rpg forums - even though some are trying their hardest to spread it far and wide.

Regards,
David R

[Pete]

There is no war. The Forge/theory(of any kind) has never been a threat to trad gaming. Most folks haver never even heard of the Forge. It's pathethic really, the only place this so-called war really matters in on a few rpg forums - even though some are trying their hardest to spread it far and wide.

The answer the warriors will tell you is that there is a war and the internet is the battleground.  Joey Bagadoughnuts Roleplayer doesn't give a flying fuck about the Forge, GNS, swine, Pundit or any of that shit.  

However, Mike Mearls does.

And Allen Varney does.

And various other top RPG designers do.  Now they're starting to get ideas.  "Hey, maybe these Forge guys are onto something."  They may even...

...even...

...even...

PLAY A FUCKING FORGE GAME.  AND OHMYDEARGOD LIKE IT TOO!  AND THEN PEOPLE ALL ACROSS THE WORLD WILL BE ROLLING TO BE OVERCOMING THEIR GRIEF.  And shit like that.

So we need to protect the fragile, mainstream RPG designers.  They distract easily and are open to new ideas.

[Imperator]

PLAY A FUCKING FORGE GAME.  AND OHMYDEARGOD LIKE IT TOO!  AND THEN PEOPLE ALL ACROSS THE WORLD WILL BE ROLLING TO BE OVERCOMING THEIR GRIEF.  And shit like that.

So we need to protect the fragile, mainstream RPG designers.  They distract easily and are open to new ideas.

Mike Mearls already has played Forge games. And he seemed to like them. The End is Nigh.

[James J Skach]

Yet more straw men.  It's not about whether or not Mike Mearls likes Forge games (whatever the hell that means). It's not about whether or not anybody likes Forge games - does anybody have the total number of people who have ever purchased/played "forge" games?

It's about claims of the Universal RPG Theory that Covers All RPG Behavior and Proves That There's One True Way To Design and Play RPG's; claims that Conflict Resolution is the ultimate savior and protection against the evil Railroading GM; etc.

Now someone will claim I'm putting up a straw man, but I can personally point to threads that illustrate what I'm talking about.

[Imperator]

Yet more straw men.  It's not about whether or not Mike Mearls likes Forge games (whatever the hell that means). It's not about whether or not anybody likes Forge games - does anybody have the total number of people who have ever purchased/played "forge" games?

It's about claims of the Universal RPG Theory that Covers All RPG Behavior and Proves That There's One True Way To Design and Play RPG's; claims that Conflict Resolution is the ultimate savior and protection against the evil Railroading GM; etc.

Now someone will claim I'm putting up a straw man, but I can personally point to threads that illustrate what I'm talking about.

James:

I understand and agree with you on this: some people may have made that claims. And that claims are probably pretty absurd and unsupported by reality.

So what?

Some people makes assertions that you disagree with over the Internet. Big deal.

Have I missed something, James?

[Melinglor]

So at the point that happened (and I think I have actually explained this a couple of times by now), people have started tossing the rhetoric back.  

'Scuse me, but I'm relatively new around here, so I've probably missed you explaining this previously. So I'm really curious: what at point did this happen? And who are "they"? What roleplaying designers have portrayed themselves explicitly as "psychological experts" or "authorities on roleplaying games other than the ones they actually know anything about"? I'm really confused since I've never heard complaints against the Indie crowd leveled in quite this way. Particularly the second one seems rather loaded: do designers recieve accreditation in specific RPGs they're familiar with? Or is this a blanket assumption about what type of game a certain type of designer is likely to be familiar with? (It kind of sounds like Franklin's assumption, "Sure, they may SEEM nice, but I bet I couldn't talk about GURPS over there, they wouldn't be so nice THEN!" mixed with a wierd elitism regarding "our" game that's so cool and which "they" just don't understand. If I'm misreading, sorry, I'm just having a hard time making sense of this assertion.)

Ron Edwards successfully portrayed himself for 6 years as an expert on D&D, and then played it, and because of his 'actual play report' it was readily apparent to any amateur game-master that he barely understands it.

I'm assuming this is at least one of those who you're referencing RE: the "authorities on roleplaying games" problem. But, well. . .surely Ron's expertise in D&D refers to much older versions of the game, as he's detailed in describing his roleplaying history. I don't think he'd ever played 3E before that incident. (Whether he's "successfully portrayed"--boy, what a conspiratorially-slanted turn of phrase--himself as an "expert" or an "authority" is debatable; I mean he speaks with confidence and force about it just like he does about anything, but really--this is the kind of assertion that's generally impossible to unpack, since I've not read everything the man's ever written, but if you've got something specific, I'd be glad to look at it.)

Also, I read the D&D AP and it sounds like he took the game and ran it for a couple of friends (kid and his dad) on request, tailoring it to what sort of game they all agreed they wanted to play, and had a blast. Not sure how he demonstrated that he "barely understands it." He had some questions on experience and adjudication, but how does he fail to understand D&D at a conceptual level?

It has become clear that a lot of the other self-declared experts are bullshitting us and have been for some time. Deep intellectual dishonesty has been a hallmark of the forgies from the beginning, and it's just starting to surface.

Again, who and how? I've poked around a lot of dank corners of the Forge, and never found any self-declarations of expert-hood. I'd really like to know if there's something I'm not picking up on over there.

Aside from stuff that just plain confuses me, I'm seeing an air of acute unfairness in your argument, Abyssal (Mr. Maw? Abby?). For instance, this war is "rhetorical," and the "first shots" fired were those of rhetoric, but rhetoric for your side is OK? For instance, saying that Indie games aren't really RPGs is justified because some guy's blog said it about D&D first? Along the same lines:  

Our grievances are legitimate. Everyone recognizes that the discourse has been poisoned. There is hostility in the air.

So. . .the hostility in the air is the responsibility of the Forgies? It's your grievance against them? You're not responsible for the hostility on your side?

I guess a lot of this, for me, boils down to: I don't really see the characterization of "Forgies" that you're painting, 'Byssal. The gamer-shame "peddling," the hive-mindedness, the "obsess[ing] on how everyone else does stuff or worry about how to fool or shame people into buying in." I found the Forge a little over a year ago and read a ton of essays, TWO tons of threads, and branched out to various blogs, and never got anything like this impression. When you say stuff like:

The Forge grows from failures (failed, bitter gamers)

and

a bunch of dropouts following their cultlike leader from convention to convention

Talk about "wierd bigotry!" As I said before, characterizing these people (to the extent that there even IS a "these people") as bizarre misanthropes runs counter to all my experience of them. Ron Edwards is not my favorite person, and I think his manner is sometimes unhelpful in discussions, even rude. He is at other times the opposite, though I wouldn't venture to guess how the percentages run. But He doesn't come off as a cackling cult leader or fiery zealot or anything. He's got a lot of interesting ideas. Vincent Baker comes off as very down-to-earth, friendly, no-bullshit. Matt Wilson seems nice. Tony  hangs out here of course, and strikes me as pleasant, enthusiastic, and good-humored.

Now, this IS the Internet, and there's no way to know for sure, if what I'm recieving is an accurate reflection. But that presumably goes for most of the folks painting "Forgies" with their big red brush as well, so . .I don't get it. Where's it coming from? It's really not the Forge I know.

It will eventually reach a point where the arguments become exhausting and people will concetrate on either watching what they say (which sucks the air out of the discourse) or saying it behind closed doors.

This I agree with. However, I fail to see how "sucking the air out of the discourse" is good. Seems to me that the stifling of vigorous debate and honest thought is a lose-lose for everyone. "We're going to win this one"? "Halting the infection"? Again, how is just one side responsible for the poisoned air?



I know I'm really new, so this may come off as impertinent, or whatever. Them's the breaks. I just hadda ask. I'm really scratching my head on this whole thing.

Peace,
-Joel

[David R]

I understand and agree with you on this: some people may have made that claims. And that claims are probably pretty absurd and unsupported by reality

Some people makes assertions that you disagree with over the Internet. Big deal.

Yup. To me and a whole lot of other folks, this is what it boils down to. Petty and absurd claims and counter claims, sometimes reasonable discussions and a whole lot of insecurity....from both sides.

Viewed in totality, this ain't a war - large scale hissy fit maybe, but not a war.

Regards,
David R

[Balbinus]

This I agree with. However, I fail to see how "sucking the air out of the discourse" is good. Seems to me that the stifling of vigorous debate and honest thought is a lose-lose for everyone.

Hey Joel,

This point struck me, as I tend to think stifling this particular debate would not be a bad thing.

Howcome?  Why am I an enemy of open and honest debate?  Well, partly because I'm just plain a bad person, but more to the point because I think it's a debate which unnecessarily polarises people and creates camps that don't actually need to exist.

The debate leads to people saying that some guys aren't playing rpgs at all, or to making sweeping generalisations about how people play particular types of rpgs, or to condescending remarks about how the other guys only play the rpgs they do because they want to feel superior or because they don't have the insight to play better ones.  Crap like that.

For me, I'd be happy to see the debate die and to let people just get on with designing and playing games, be they based on existing or novel techniques.

Of course, just by posting this I'm working against that, but that's why I'd like to see the debate die off, because if it did we could talk about stuff that is a bit more fun.  Also, I think the debate overall inhibits the development of indie rpgs.  Obviously a big selling point for indie rpgs currently to some folk is the distinction, but I think it ghettoises them.  I'd much rather see great games like PTA or BW just recognised as great rpg designs than as great indie rpg designs, I think it would lead to a healthier hobby.

[Garry G]

What's interesting about this thread is that a few weeks ago Franklin started a thread looking for 'Forgey' stuff in the UK. This isn't like he accidentally came across stuff or somebody went all evangelical on him at a con he went out deliberately to find people he could label 'Forgey' so he could be offended by them. When in this thread people pointed out that the guys he was attacking are actually alright he just got more offensive about them.

This all says a lot more about Franklin than anybody else if you ask me.

[Franklin]

What's interesting about this thread is that a few weeks ago Franklin started a thread looking for 'Forgey' stuff in the UK. This isn't like he accidentally came across stuff or somebody went all evangelical on him at a con he went out deliberately to find people he could label 'Forgey' so he could be offended by them. When in this thread people pointed out that the guys he was attacking are actually alright he just got more offensive about them.

This all says a lot more about Franklin than anybody else if you ask me.

So? So what? I was just trying to find out if forge stuff had come to mthe UK? Whats wrong with that? So I find out it does and tell people about it. Whats wrong with that?

And I don't think the guys I was so-called 'attacking' are 'alright'. So, Malcolm makes a sanctimonius post and then runs like a scardey cat without even coming back to answer to anyone. At least I am still here. I don't see anyopne from the UK forge coming here to try to defend their bullshit.

Thanks
Frank

[Garry G]

You were looking for something you could label 'Forgey' so you could then make an attack on them. You wouldn't even be aware they exist if you didn'y go out of your way to hunt them down just so you could accuse them of being wankers. It's sort of like somebody mentioning how much they hate having Jehovahs Witnesses turning up at their door and you hunting down the local church to take the piss  even though you've never had them at your door. Through in the amount of bile you've spewed you come across much more like the bloke with a massive chip on his shoulder than they do.

Cheers for pointing them out.

[GRIM]

I don't see anyopne from the UK forge coming here to try to defend their bullshit.

I don't see King Arthur returning from Avalon to bitch slap you either, perhaps there's come commonality between mythical places that don't exist and this 'UK Forge' you speak of.