Swinewatch UK

[arminius]

You'd have to do a bit better to convince me, Pundit. There're non-Forge people like Chad Underkoffler publishing through IPR; also a quick look turns up Artesia and at least a couple d20 publishers.

[flyingmice]

A/State is a trad game, nothing forgey about it. I've played it. I think, like Burning Wheel and Conspiracy of Shadows, the author (Malcom Craig) got involved in the Forge after the game was released. Cold City looks far less trad than A/State.

-clash

[Malcolm Craig]

Hi,

(Jon) Hodgson informed me in the pub tonight that there might be thread here involving some talk about the Collective Endeavour and those involved with it, so I thought I would swing by and give my view on the situation.

The Collective Endeavour was set up by a group of like minded designers to promote design, play and publication of roleplaying games. And that's pretty much it. We're not there to promote a particular philosophy or theory or to convert people to a particular way of thinking. Even though we are pretty small scale at the moment, I think you'll find a fairly wind spectrum of thought and opinion, even amongst those like minded souls who set up the site (myself included).

We in not way want to restrict talk about games design to one particular mode of thinking. Indeed, one of those who set the site up has written and published D20 modules which were on sale alongside games such as Cold City and Contenders at our first convention outing as a collective. We all write game that excite and inspire us, games that we would like to run an play.

Replicating the Forge would be a pointless exercise. We want to provide out own feel, a site that gives the point of view from the UK. That being said, all of us have many friends who have developed games with the input and assistance of site members of the Forge. But the Forge is not a monolithic entitiy with one viewpoint and one way of doing things and should not be seen as such.

We welcome all comers to the Collective Endeavour and are would be delighted to talk about games design, actual play, publishing issues and so forth, whatever games these might be related to. I think that, as others n this thread have point out, my first published game (a|state) is very 'traditional' in the way it works. My most recent game (Cold City) is somewhat less 'traditional' in the way the mechanics work. Yet, both of them are games I love to run and play and I'm equally pleased with the way both turned out.

Addressing the concerns raised by Frank (or Franklin, I'm not sure how you would prefer to be addressed), there are several points you raise. Firstly, it seems from other posts you have made that you are deeply disatisfied with the PDF of Cold City that your purchased. It's obviously not the game you were expecting nor does it seem to be the kind of game that you enjoy playing. So, if you would like to PM me with your email address, I'd very much like to refund the money that you paid for the PDF in order that you don't end up out of pocket.

Secondly (and, again, from other posts you've made on this site), i get the feeling you live somewhere in central Scotland? If you do, then I'd like to invite you along to one of the conventions we (as in a large chunk of the Collective Endeavour crew) will be attending in the near future. We'll be at Conflagration in Glasgow at the end of February and Conpulsion in Edinburgh at the end of March. I'd really like to run a game or game that you could take part in and I'm sure the other CE guys would feel the same way. After a session of play, you may decide it has confirmed your thoughts about that style of game. Then again, you may end up with a different point of view. Regardless, it would be great if we could give you that chance to experience some of our games, run by the creators, so you can have concrete evidence upon which to make up your mind. Again, please do feel free to PM me about this.

Am I wrong or are they the authors of A|State? That's a damn cool RPG. And very traditional, so it seems that Franklin will be able to rest.

Thanks, thats much appreciated. I'm glad you like a|state. It's a game I'm very proud of.

Cheers
Malcolm

[flyingmice]

Hi Malcolm!

I figured it was something along those lines - i.e. a Scottish/regional thing rather than Forge-ish per se - as Andrew is in there. Say hi to him from me. A|State is a great game! I haven't played Cold City yet, but I'm sure it will be at least as well designed as A|State.

Thanks for popping in!

-clash

[Abyssal Maw]

I was very impressed with Malcolms response.

He acknowledges why (some of us) are pissed. Thats huge. It's practically unprecedented.

I hope he's still listening:

Malcolm, you seem to understand where this conflict is welling from. Many of us feel like we have legitimate grievances. Many of us are angry. Many of us are willing to hoist the black flag and commence to the verbal slitting of throats. But you actually seem to understand why.

Am I correct in that?

[Melinglor]

Hi, Malcolm!

Just wanted to chip in (since by bling chance I have stumbled on this thread that you're posting to) that I recieved Cold City as a christmas gift, and though I haven't given it athorough reading yet, when I do I'll let you know what I think of it. A few people I told about the game seemed interested in it, so perhaps I can muster a play report someitme as well! I'm just through Character creation, and so far I like the cut of its jib.

Peace,
-Joel

[Franklin]

.
The Collective Endeavour was set up by a group of like minded designers to promote design, play and publication of roleplaying games. And that's pretty much it. We're not there to promote a particular philosophy or theory or to convert people to a particular way of thinking. Even though we are pretty small scale at the moment, I think you'll find a fairly wind spectrum of thought and opinion, even amongst those like minded souls who set up the site (myself included).

I think you mean 'wide spectrum', not 'wind spectrum'. It seems to me that you all just slap each others backs and praise each others games to me. And you all seem to make the same kind of games, all these forgey or narrative or whatever type things that can be played for about a week and then thrown away.

We welcome all comers to the Collective Endeavour and are would be delighted to talk about games design, actual play, publishing issues and so forth, whatever games these might be related to. I think that, as others n this thread have point out, my first published game (a|state) is very 'traditional' in the way it works. My most recent game (Cold City) is somewhat less 'traditional' in the way the mechanics work. Yet, both of them are games I love to run and play and I'm equally pleased with the way both turned out.

Oh really? So if I wanted to join and talk about using GURPS for a setting I'm writing then you would be cool with that? I somewho dont think so. If I came on with my own game system that totally was the same as the stuff that is already there then youd talk about it, wouldn't you? But if I came on with ideas for D20 or GURPS, I'd get told I wasn't welcome.

Addressing the concerns raised by Frank (or Franklin, I'm not sure how you would prefer to be addressed), there are several points you raise. Firstly, it seems from other posts you have made that you are deeply disatisfied with the PDF of Cold City that your purchased. It's obviously not the game you were expecting nor does it seem to be the kind of game that you enjoy playing. So, if you would like to PM me with your email address, I'd very much like to refund the money that you paid for the PDF in order that you don't end up out of pocket.

Secondly (and, again, from other posts you've made on this site), i get the feeling you live somewhere in central Scotland? If you do, then I'd like to invite you along to one of the conventions we (as in a large chunk of the Collective Endeavour crew) will be attending in the near future. We'll be at Conflagration in Glasgow at the end of February and Conpulsion in Edinburgh at the end of March. I'd really like to run a game or game that you could take part in and I'm sure the other CE guys would feel the same way. After a session of play, you may decide it has confirmed your thoughts about that style of game. Then again, you may end up with a different point of view. Regardless, it would be great if we could give you that chance to experience some of our games, run by the creators, so you can have concrete evidence upon which to make up your mind. Again, please do feel free to PM me about this.

You really are a sanctemonius prick.

Thanks, thats much appreciated. I'm glad you like a|state. It's a game I'm very proud of.

Well, from me, I used to like that game but after listening to you and your 'Mr Diplomatic' routine I don't much like you or your games any more.

Thanks
Frank

[droog]

Golly....

[David R]

Well, from me, I used to like that game but after listening to you and your 'Mr Diplomatic' routine I don't much like you or your games any more.

This is funny, esp after a recent trainwreck of a thread

Why don't you first post something on CE, try to engage, see where it gets you and if things don't go well, then come and bitch about them here.

Regards,
David R

[mythusmage]

Golly....

Sounds like irritable vowel syndrome to me.

[Imperator]

I think you mean 'wide spectrum', not 'wind spectrum'. It seems to me that you all just slap each others backs and praise each others games to me. And you all seem to make the same kind of games, all these forgey or narrative or whatever type things that can be played for about a week and then thrown away.

Assuming that you were right on this... so what? OK, I get it, some indie designer ran over your wife, and fucked your dog, or whatever. It's war for you.

Oh really? So if I wanted to join and talk about using GURPS for a setting I'm writing then you would be cool with that? I somehow dont think so. If I came on with my own game system that totally was the same as the stuff that is already there then youd talk about it, wouldn't you? But if I came on with ideas for D20 or GURPS, I'd get told I wasn't welcome.

Have you tried to do that? If you haven't why don't you try, and if you're not welcome THEN come here and start bitching about the site?

[Balbinus]

I've met several of these guys, they're good guys, fun and not at all pretentious (well, some may be from Edinburgh which I suppose makes one pretentious by default*).

A/State is a great game, Cold City apparently is also a lot of fun, 3:16 when I played it was fun, Cold City is more Forgey in style but having met these guys I can say with absolute certainty they design on the basis of what looks like fun to them, no more and no less.  If anyone here doesn't find that particular game fun or any other particular game they design fun then don't buy it, I see no particular reason to be aggrieved.

But seriously, these are not precious people.  They're just guys making games that they think will be fun, if you agree cool if not that's also cool.  There's no movement, there's no crusade, there's just people making games and getting some much deserved success in selling them.  I wish them every success and am glad to see a UK indie scene starting to thrive on its own.

Speaking personally incidentally, I have no fucking clue where the sense of grievance comes from.  I see nothing threatening in roleplaying growing and embracing new types of game, if I don't like them I won't play them but it does me no harm at all to have more people in the hobby or to have more kinds of game about.  Hell, better than that, it's good for me.  To use my favourite examples, Mongoose's Conan stole some ideas directly from Sorceror, the new Paranoia was directly influenced by My Life with Master (and for the curious in both cases I was told that by members of the respective design teams).  So, the trad games I love get to steal a few new ideas from the indie guys, great, and if the occasional indie game grabs my interest great again.

This whole hate on thing is fucking tired, there is nothing threatening in some guys having fun with a style of game one may not personally like.  I hate fucking mecha, everyone else here seems to love it, cool - that in no way negatively affects me.  Enjoy the mecha, enjoy GMless play, enjoy shared narrative control, enjoy what the fuck you like because none of it negatively affects my gaming and some of it may actually help my gaming.

I tell you, if someone sets up an indie con in London I'll be there gaming my little heart out, and none of that will stop me running Runequest for my Monday night group the week after.  There is no war, there's just some folk who feel threatened by people having fun they don't share.  

Oh, and narrative control?  It's a spectrum.  There is no clear dividing line.  Some games the players can only say stuff based directly on their sheet, some games like Feng Shui they can add minor details if it makes sense, some games like Buffy they have drama points which let them directly alter a scene (and Buffy is still very much a traditional game), some games let players win narrative control for certain scenes and some games share narrative control equally among the participants.  It's a spectrum, pick what looks fun to you and you're golden.  There really is no sense getting upset because someone else prefers a different point along the spectrum.



*My family is from Glasgow as it happens, why do you ask?

[Geoff Hall]

Have you tried to do that? If you haven't why don't you try, and if you're not welcome THEN come here and start bitching about the site?

I'm assuming because doing so would involve common sense, an open mind and would likely be unsuccessful without losing the hyperbolic virtiol Franklin appears to be in love with.  That or one of the CE really did run over a loved one...

As to whether or not it would work, I don't see why not.  Don't expect a huge volume of responses, thet site is still very new and low traffic after all.  Still, Andrew Kenrick (of Steam Power Publishing and co-author of Dead of Night along with Merwin (Rumble)) publishes the Future Soldier line of expansions for D20 future and has run numerous D&D games and is currently running an Etherscope (kick arse OGL setting) game (plus writing and publishing adventure modules for it.)  So I wouldn't make a blanket assumption about what kind of games are 'acceptable.'  It's a site for UK-based indie game designers, NOT a site for UK-based Forgite Fanatics.  And those of the CE that I met at DragonMeet in December were very friendly,  approachable and enthusiastic about gaming.  They are also generally (as in outside of gamer circles) socially competant and engaging individuals whose presence and genuine love of the hobby can only be a good thing overall.

(Full disclosure: I'm not a part of the CE but would quite like to be in the future and I AM good friends with one of the members, Andrew Kenrick, and have met a good few of the others.)

[Balbinus]

One curious factoid, after Dragonmeet I did notice that the indie guys present generally didn't seem to have weight problems and several had girlfriends.  

Accordingly, it does seem that indie games help you lose weight and get girls.

[Imperator]

They're just guys making games that they think will be fun, if you agree cool if not that's also cool.  There's no movement, there's no crusade, there's just people making games and getting some much deserved success in selling them.  I wish them every success and am glad to see a UK indie scene starting to thrive on its own.

The very idea of a crusade, war, or whatever you want to call it is ridiculous to no limits to me. I'd love to see an indie scene around here. Variety is good.

Swinewatch. Of all the fucking ridiculous things you could call it, you call it like you're actually doing something. What are you going to do about that? Write angry rants on your forum or your blog? Do you really think that that inane rambling matters a shit? Do you really think that the discussion here (or RPG.net, or wherever) changes shit?

Indie games keep growing because their authors promote them, go to cons and make demos, and are enthusiastic about them. That's what matters. D&D keeps being played because it's a great game and people gets fun from it. That has nothing to do with ridiculous egoboosts through the web, call them war or whatever you want to.

You want more discussion aout your favourite game, be it trad or indie? Then fucking start them. You can talk about RIFTS on the Forge, if you want it (Settembrini did it!) You can talk about any game here. What the fuck does that say, uh?

Speaking personally incidentally, I have no fucking clue where the sense of grievance comes from.  I see nothing threatening in roleplaying growing and embracing new types of game, if I don't like them I won't play them but it does me no harm at all to have more people in the hobby or to have more kinds of game about.  Hell, better than that, it's good for me.  To use my favourite examples, Mongoose's Conan stole some ideas directly from Sorceror, the new Paranoia was directly influenced by My Life with Master (and for the curious in both cases I was told that by members of the respective design teams).  So, the trad games I love get to steal a few new ideas from the indie guys, great, and if the occasional indie game grabs my interest great again.

My gaming is greater, wider, and funnier because of that. Now I'm starting an RQ game, because RQ rocks, and I'm playing Aquelarre because also fucking rocks. But next I can be playing different games, with different styles and rules, and enjoy them all. My gaming is better because of that, because of the options.

There is no war, there's just some folk who feel threatened by people having fun they don't share.  

Pure ego boost, I call it.