Supers, part II

[RPGPundit]

The Non-Existant Superhero RPG Statblock Experiment
(RPGPundit blog title, or really good name for a progressive rock band?)

Ok, its time to do some clarifying on what I would envision "my" Supers system to be.
 
A lot of my readers reacted quite negatively to the way I explained my position; some of them out of being Hero fans who felt I wasn't giving that system a fair shake, and others because my terminology and all this talk about "protagonism" was sounding dangerously close to Forge-speak.
 
But there are a few simple points I want to get through, that I feel quite strongly about, and that if you don't take them out of context you will see that they really aren't as extreme as people made my last Supers post out to be.
 
They are:
 
1. That contrary to what seems to be the popular belief of almost everyone, I believe that Supers is a genre that is particularly suited to rules light, not rules heavy.
 
Doing Supers "rules heavy" is like doing Star Trek rules heavy; it may seem obvious to do so until you realize that Star Trek isn't really hard sf, and all the technobabble is really just a literary mechanism. The superpowers in comic books aren't extensively detailed fixed abilities, they are excuses for the heros to be heroic. That's why they change from adventure to adventure and what can be done with them depends on the threat being faced.
 
2. Due to point #1, the powers should be something that is a secondary descriptor to a basic attribute, which we might as well call "power". At least as important as "power" is some other attribute, which in my last entry I called "gravitas", which reflects how personally significant the Hero is to the "comic universe" he inhabits, in other words, how badass you are affects how good you will do.
 
One of my readers suggested that it would be bad to have such a mechanic because "all pcs should be equally significant" in an RPG campaign.  The "significance" I'm talking about is not how significant the players are with each other, rather its significance as a measure of power in a comics context.  Its no different than having one player have a higher dexterity score than another, there's nothing unfair about it, and it will be just another choice in character creation.
 
The PC party in a Supers game is almost always a team. So the "gravitas" attribute would function within the context of that team. The Martian Manhunter is a far less important character in the DC Universe than Superman. In the Justice League comic, nevertheless, they both play important roles and do important things.  But one one of the minor characters start doing a narrative about "he's the best of us, just being in a room with him makes you afraid and inspired at once, blah blah blah", you know its Supes he's talking about and not the Martian Manhunter.
 
3.  A good system will also reflect the position of your particular campaign's group of Supers in context of the different levels of the "comic universe", ie. are they the heavy-hitters of their world, the teen sidekicks, the second-stringers, or total unknowns/neophytes. Most existing superhero systems do this by varying point values (ie. "this is a 400 point game because it heavy hitters, instead of the regular 200 point game") for character creation. While there's nothing particularly wrong with this, I think you could do something more effective using an Amber-style ranking system.
 
Something like:
U=cosmic level power (eg. Spectre, Galactus, Dr.Manhattan)
A= heavy hitter (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Joker, Braniac)
B = second stringer/sidekick (Teen Titans, Justice Society, Mr.Freeze)
C = minor/street power (your average relatively easy to beat villain, or really secondary hero)
D = non-power (innocent bystanders, power-less goons)
 
So, to highlight what I would see as the right way to do a supers game, I'm going to stat out Superman and Batman in my imaginary Supers rpg, to give you an idea of what I'd be looking to do.
 
Here's Superman:
Class: A
Gravitas: 40
(extras: fortress of solitude, random kryptonian items, superman robots, Kent farm)
Power: 60
(powers: invulnerability A1, flight A1, Superspeed A2, superstrength A1, heat vision A1, x-ray vision A1 (lim: lead), enhanced senses A1)
Skill: 10
(skill: reporter A1)
Toughness: 10
 
Vulnerabilities: kryptonite (commonly known, fatal: -10), magic (rarely known, overrides all powers: -10)
 
NOTES: Superman's toughness is actually relatively low (though still on the A scale) because usually his power:invulnerability would apply instead. Toughness reflects his toughness when his power is over-ridden or disabled.
 
Batman:
Class: A
Gravitas: 55
(extras: bat-arsenal (smokebombs, batarang, utility belt), batcave, batvehicles, alfred, wayne foundation)
Powers: 0
Skill: 20
(skills: Master Detective A1, martial arts A1)
Toughness: 25
 
Anyways, there's some made-up statblocks to give you an idea of what I envision for the kind of Supers system I think would work.  As you can see, powers are still important, but using the same amount of points you can stat out a Batman who would be able to use his gravitas to counter Superman's powers.
 
The part that doesn't end up being well described in the stat blocks, that I must mention here, is that the powers themselves wouldn't have speficied ranges because those things don't seem to be important in the comics. With his A-2 superspeed superman would be able to outrun any mortal, but would be just barely beaten by the Flash (A1) in a race, unless superman used his gravitas (which I envision as a kind of pool that is spent and refreshed over time) to beat the Flash in a specific situation.
 
So I hope you all enjoyed this glimpse into a system that doesn't actually exist, but that in my opinion ought to.  Or better yet, something similar to it but actually done by a professional.
 
RPGPundit September 21st 2005

[Spike]

I've argued this with the pundit before, so I'll just put my point out there for future discussion ahead of time...

Not everyone playing a Supers sort of game is hugely interested in 'Genre emulation' of Comic books, nor are they necessarily interested in recreating JLA or what have you.

Sometimes its all about the Kewl Powerz, and handwaving it all away under a banner of 'protagonism' is gonna smack of high swinedom.


Don't get your Genre Emulation in my Kewl Powerz, pundit!



(of course, I'm wondering if part of the issue is that he seems to be a DC sort, and I'm most certainly a Marvel sort.  This falls into the same catagory as the Elvis/Beatles thing in my book.)

[flyingmice]

I'd play that game, pundit. It's coming at the game from a comic book perspective, which is what I like about T&J and H&S. All other supers games are to me missing the point.

Spike:

You already have a dozen great powers focused supers games. You can play them to your heart's content. I'm not interested in them. That doesn't mean they are bad, it means they don't hit my buzzer. This is an interesting approach, and it deserves to be explored, for people like me.

-clash

[RPGPundit]

The difference is that, between games being about Super POWERS, and games being about Superheroes.

RPGPundit

[RPGObjects_chuck]

You already have a dozen great powers focused supers games. You can play them to your heart's content. I'm not interested in them. That doesn't mean they are bad, it means they don't hit my buzzer. This is an interesting approach, and it deserves to be explored, for people like me.

-clash

I'm fairly certain no one was saying one type of supers game or the other needed to go away. All types of games should be explored you're right.

For myself, Pundit's first post DID get my ire up because he wasn't saying powers focused games (which isn't the way I'd describe a game like hero but that's neither here nor there) aren't his cup of tea.

At least I didn't read it that way. He came across as saying "this is what those idiot designers insist on making when any moron knows THIS is the way it should be done".

So I reacted a little more emotionally than I should have, but as someone who picks up every supers game I can afford, I can tell you I don't think there should be only one approach.

Heck I have the Marvel game with the stones!

Chuck

[RPGObjects_chuck]

The difference is that, between games being about Super POWERS, and games being about Superheroes.

RPGPundit

Well, I wouldn't say the Hero system is about powers. It's a type of superhero game that a lot of folks like.

The fact that M&M, currently the most popular superhero game around (based on my experience has a hardcore supers gamer who knows a lot of other supers gamers in my area) is basically a d20 version of Hero, and the fact that GURPs Powers, one of the other VERY popular supers games around is also strongly influenced by Hero, shows that the game must be doing something right.

Is it for everyone? No. But I think it does a disservice to reality to say a game that long lasting and influential is a bad design just because it doesn't appeal to you.

Chuck

[Mcrow]

At least I didn't read it that way. He came across as saying "this is what those idiot designers insist on making when any moron knows THIS is the way it should be done".


Chuck

I think you are reading more into what people around here are saying that what they actually mean. It seems like you are always saying someone thinks that game designers are idiots, even when that is not what was said.

Pro game designers are largely good @ what they do, however there are also plenty of publishers that are no better than jow blow with his homebrew.

As far as supers go:  I don't think it is possible to make a game that properly represents the comics. So that whole idea is shot, IMO.

You can certainly make a supers themed game that lets you play a somewhat reasonable mock-up of a super hero, but there are plenty of games that already do that. These games typically focus more on powers and the game mechanics than actually playing superheroes.

[RPGObjects_chuck]

I think you are reading more into what people around here are saying that what they actually mean. It seems like you are always saying someone thinks that game designers are idiots, even when that is not what was said.

I don't think I'm *always* saying that. I think I was saying it in the previous supers thread because sometimes I'm touchy and things set me off

And for the record, game designers do frequently make moronic decisions in hindsight, myself included. But things look a lot different when you're in the trenches of a design.

Chuck

[Silverlion]

The difference is that, between games being about Super POWERS, and games being about Superheroes.

RPGPundit

Well said actually.
I concur completely.


And Hero is "so popular" that it wasn't making enough money being sold through stores, but HERO games had to urge people to buy direct. This is not an indicator of success. But it isn't saying Hero is failing--just that Superheroes are small niche genre.



 Hero has loyal fans. But so does V&V, and MSH. (and V&V has continuously been in print, this has little to do with its money making ability, or popularity but the rights holders obstinance to maintaining control, and means to do so--yet its been in print even when Hero was OOP for a time.

On the other hand I can find more MSH player at ANY given time than I ever could of Hero, V&V, or any other game, both online and off, and that is within the last YEAR (I started a new MSH game online at that time.) --and the game has been OOP for over a decade.

[RPGObjects_chuck]

And Hero is "so popular" that it wasn't making enough money being sold through stores, but HERO games had to urge people to buy direct. This is not an indicator of success. But it isn't saying Hero is failing--just that Superheroes are small niche genre.

Wow. Way to conflate the current problems with the distribution system and a lack of popularity. Green Ronin has also encouraged people to buy direct. That's not because their games don't sell. It's because the current distribution system is set up to benefit everyone BUT the people who produce product.

On the other hand I can find more MSH player at ANY given time than I ever could of Hero, V&V, or any other game, both online and off, and that is within the last YEAR (I started a new MSH game online at that time.) --and the game has been OOP for over a decade.

MSH is one of the best supers games ever designed. However, I'm not sure it's any more "about the heroes" than Champions is. It's a different approach, but it's a very traditional game without any "protagonism" stuff.

Chuck

[flyingmice]

For myself, Pundit's first post DID get my ire up because he wasn't saying powers focused games (which isn't the way I'd describe a game like hero but that's neither here nor there) aren't his cup of tea.

At least I didn't read it that way. He came across as saying "this is what those idiot designers insist on making when any moron knows THIS is the way it should be done".

Chuck

Well, y'know, he's the Pundit! Pundits don't make their rep by being nice, they make their rep by appearing abrasive, loud, and morally certain. Relax and enjoy the show.

-clash

[Samarkand]

I still say the way Aspects and Fate Points are used in "Spirit of the Century" are the kind of narrative relevance/spotlight time mechanic the Pundit wants.  But I'll be a good boy and shut up.

Andrew

[Hastur T. Fannon]

Point of geekery: Clark Kent is a lousy reporter (as demonstrated in recent issues of 52), relying on Lois to do the digging and his superpowers to ensure he's in the right place at the right time

Otherwise, this looks good

[James McMurray]

Someone needs to design an indie game that works this way so we can watch the Pundit explode from the tumultuous internal conflicts it causes.

[Hastur T. Fannon]

Someone needs to design an indie game that works this way so we can watch the Pundit explode from the tumultuous internal conflicts it causes.

You know I was thinking that the whole "Gravitas" stat does have a every narrative-based, Forgey feel :devil: