For the upcoming strixhaven book, I don't play 5e anymore but get a load of this
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/07/dd-strixhaven-book-drops-subclasses-adds-relationships.html
I mean other than the tumblr art cover Jesus fucking Christ just when it looked like they hit rock bottom they just keep on digging
Is this D&D or Bliss Stage for fuck's sake?
To be fair, the subclasses they dropped were just their weird, fucked-up strangeness made for this book. It's good that those died. They still use the subclasses that are in PHB and other books.
Quote from: Ocule on July 27, 2021, 06:08:26 PM
For the upcoming strixhaven book, I don't play 5e anymore but get a load of this
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/07/dd-strixhaven-book-drops-subclasses-adds-relationships.html
I mean other than the tumblr art cover Jesus fucking Christ just when it looked like they hit rock bottom they just keep on digging
Yes, yes they do keep digging and the opening sentence of the article had me lol, "D&D players prove that they hate fun and fear change: WotC has announced they're dropping new subclass concepts from the upcoming Strixhaven book."
So the author got their cheerios peed in eh?
I mean I play 5e cause of family (not my preferred) but WotC lost any income from me with that craptacular Van Recktem's guide
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 28, 2021, 11:39:18 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 27, 2021, 06:08:26 PM
For the upcoming strixhaven book, I don't play 5e anymore but get a load of this
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/07/dd-strixhaven-book-drops-subclasses-adds-relationships.html
I mean other than the tumblr art cover Jesus fucking Christ just when it looked like they hit rock bottom they just keep on digging
Yes, yes they do keep digging and the opening sentence of the article had me lol, "D&D players prove that they hate fun and fear change: WotC has announced they're dropping new subclass concepts from the upcoming Strixhaven book."
So the author got their cheerios peed in eh?
I mean I play 5e cause of family (not my preferred) but WotC lost any income from me with that craptacular Van Recktem's guide
They lost me with Tashas, it was the last straw for me
I know it's so weird. I was hardcore D&D/AD&D. I played BECM D&D and AD&D simultaneously when I got into the hobby. When 2nd came along I was hyped and loved it. Third came along and I'm like okay some of the stuff looks cool. But since 3.5 WotC always, always, has some straw for me that breaks me. In the 3e/3.5e/D20 era it was the proliferation of feats/magic items. I bought the core three for 4e and I'm like, where's my D&D, wasn't for me. 5e comes along and I was all on board. Really liked how design had advanced but still felt like D&D to me. Then this woke bullshit. And I bought Tasha's thinking okay other systems don't have the sacred cows of racial stat modifiers, maybe I can live with it. But not anymore.
I know I'm not in their target audience. There was an info-graph a couple of months ago and my age bracket (late 40's early 50's) is so small. I'm still in that phase of the relationship where I'm sad but I know I need to let it go. Ah well, I'm glad for the OSR. There are fantastic games out there. DCC is really fun right now.
Quote from: Ocule on July 28, 2021, 11:49:13 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 28, 2021, 11:39:18 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 27, 2021, 06:08:26 PM
For the upcoming strixhaven book, I don't play 5e anymore but get a load of this
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/07/dd-strixhaven-book-drops-subclasses-adds-relationships.html
I mean other than the tumblr art cover Jesus fucking Christ just when it looked like they hit rock bottom they just keep on digging
Yes, yes they do keep digging and the opening sentence of the article had me lol, "D&D players prove that they hate fun and fear change: WotC has announced they're dropping new subclass concepts from the upcoming Strixhaven book."
So the author got their cheerios peed in eh?
I mean I play 5e cause of family (not my preferred) but WotC lost any income from me with that craptacular Van Recktem's guide
They lost me with Tashas, it was the last straw for me
Bingo. One of the meanest, most badass women in all of D&D and the voice they gave her was that of a fine arts college loser working as a barista in Seattle.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 28, 2021, 12:25:57 PM
I know it's so weird. I was hardcore D&D/AD&D. I played BECM D&D and AD&D simultaneously when I got into the hobby. When 2nd came along I was hyped and loved it. Third came along and I'm like okay some of the stuff looks cool. But since 3.5 WotC always, always, has some straw for me that breaks me. In the 3e/3.5e/D20 era it was the proliferation of feats/magic items. I bought the core three for 4e and I'm like, where's my D&D, wasn't for me. 5e comes along and I was all on board. Really liked how design had advanced but still felt like D&D to me. Then this woke bullshit. And I bought Tasha's thinking okay other systems don't have the sacred cows of racial stat modifiers, maybe I can live with it. But not anymore.
I know I'm not in their target audience. There was an info-graph a couple of months ago and my age bracket (late 40's early 50's) is so small. I'm still in that phase of the relationship where I'm sad but I know I need to let it go. Ah well, I'm glad for the OSR. There are fantastic games out there. DCC is really fun right now.
Funny thing is your age bracket (and mine) has the most dispossable income to drop into hobbies, if D&D/Marvel/DC/etc have less people of that bracket buying their product it's due to their intentional alienation of said consumer base.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 02:00:57 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 28, 2021, 12:25:57 PM
I know it's so weird. I was hardcore D&D/AD&D. I played BECM D&D and AD&D simultaneously when I got into the hobby. When 2nd came along I was hyped and loved it. Third came along and I'm like okay some of the stuff looks cool. But since 3.5 WotC always, always, has some straw for me that breaks me. In the 3e/3.5e/D20 era it was the proliferation of feats/magic items. I bought the core three for 4e and I'm like, where's my D&D, wasn't for me. 5e comes along and I was all on board. Really liked how design had advanced but still felt like D&D to me. Then this woke bullshit. And I bought Tasha's thinking okay other systems don't have the sacred cows of racial stat modifiers, maybe I can live with it. But not anymore.
I know I'm not in their target audience. There was an info-graph a couple of months ago and my age bracket (late 40's early 50's) is so small. I'm still in that phase of the relationship where I'm sad but I know I need to let it go. Ah well, I'm glad for the OSR. There are fantastic games out there. DCC is really fun right now.
Funny thing is your age bracket (and mine) has the most dispossable income to drop into hobbies, if D&D/Marvel/DC/etc have less people of that bracket buying their product it's due to their intentional alienation of said consumer base.
Lol, my thoughts exactly. I was thinking that the other day. smh
Oh look, another WOTC product I will not buy.
Greetings!
The cover art for "Strixhaven" looks fucking pathetic. It doesn't surprise me though. Jeremy Crawford likes sugar in his tank.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Just because you need to add diversity to your library does not mean that you should employee Bob "Fire Hands"
(https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/dungeons-and-dragons-rpg-strixhaven-setting-cover.jpg)
Quote from: Shasarak on July 30, 2021, 06:15:02 PM
Just because you need to add diversity to your library does not mean that you should employee Bob "Fire Hands"
(https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/dungeons-and-dragons-rpg-strixhaven-setting-cover.jpg)
Owl dude is thinking "Fire hazard asshole..."
This whole Strixhaven thing looks like a very, very late attempt to make a bad Harry Potter knockoff.
That cover! LOL.
Suck the gay penis 5e players! Suck it or lose virtue points!
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 30, 2021, 06:35:52 PMThis whole Strixhaven thing looks like a very, very late attempt to make a bad Harry Potter knockoff.
It's Hogwarts, but with diversity, inclusion and equity!
But hey, the Oppression Olympics XP boost is their kewl new mechanic.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 02:00:57 PMif D&D/Marvel/DC/etc have less people of that bracket buying their product it's due to their intentional alienation of said consumer base.
Excellent! More money for the OSR!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 02:00:57 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 28, 2021, 12:25:57 PM
I know it's so weird. I was hardcore D&D/AD&D. I played BECM D&D and AD&D simultaneously when I got into the hobby. When 2nd came along I was hyped and loved it. Third came along and I'm like okay some of the stuff looks cool. But since 3.5 WotC always, always, has some straw for me that breaks me. In the 3e/3.5e/D20 era it was the proliferation of feats/magic items. I bought the core three for 4e and I'm like, where's my D&D, wasn't for me. 5e comes along and I was all on board. Really liked how design had advanced but still felt like D&D to me. Then this woke bullshit. And I bought Tasha's thinking okay other systems don't have the sacred cows of racial stat modifiers, maybe I can live with it. But not anymore.
I know I'm not in their target audience. There was an info-graph a couple of months ago and my age bracket (late 40's early 50's) is so small. I'm still in that phase of the relationship where I'm sad but I know I need to let it go. Ah well, I'm glad for the OSR. There are fantastic games out there. DCC is really fun right now.
Funny thing is your age bracket (and mine) has the most dispossable income to drop into hobbies, if D&D/Marvel/DC/etc have less people of that bracket buying their product it's due to their intentional alienation of said consumer base.
I was thinking about that. It's always been a big thing to go after young people in marketing because the thought is you'd make them customers for life. That's a lot less true than it used to be, though. I suspect the way they pile on anything right-leaning these days is a bigger problem.
Jeremy Crawford is the worst thing to happen to Dungeons and Dragons. It isn't even close anymore.
Does Strixhaven have an amulet to ward off STDs? Seems like they need to make one.
Quote from: horsesoldier on August 12, 2021, 06:15:02 AM
Jeremy Crawford is the worst thing to happen to Dungeons and Dragons. It isn't even close anymore.
Does Strixhaven have an amulet to ward off STDs? Seems like they need to make one.
Jeremy...... It was just a matter of time.
WOTC continues to double down on the fluffy puppy dangerhair demographic.
As far as rulebooks for 5E; The Core 3 Books, plus Volo's, Mordenkainen's, Xanathar's, and Tasha's were definitely as far as I cared to go. I could already see an absence of further interest, in buying a continued reinterpretation of the rules I already owned.
I am constantly reassured, that I was right.
You know what , gang? If you couldn't get that WotC hated our collective guts with DnD 4E, then I don't know what to say because 5E is just a logical extrapolation of the marketing suck that was 4E.
Get this:
As Crawford explained, relationships are at the heart of the expansion: "As we reflected on our own experience as university students, we looked at not only how much excitement there can be, but what a hot mess college life can be. The relationships you can build can become really dear and affectionate, but they can also go the other direction, and you can end up with a frenemy who might end up causing you trouble."
Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/07/dd-strixhaven-book-drops-subclasses-adds-relationships.html
Seriously, this is college now?
SERIOUSLY?!
And the pre-built NPCs to shoehorn into a pre-existing campaign?
No. I don't want WotC pre-designed homoerotic hot-mess frenemies list. NO!
BOL is now charging membership fees to access the comments to their articles on their site. Fuck'em, here they are directly from #Disqus (https://disqus.com/home/discussion/belloflostsouls/d038d_strixhaven_book_drops_subclasses_adds_relationships/).
Spoilers: None of them were complementary.
Quote from: consolcwby on August 14, 2021, 12:38:04 AM
Get this:
As Crawford explained, relationships are at the heart of the expansion: "As we reflected on our own experience as university students, we looked at not only how much excitement there can be, but what a hot mess college life can be. The relationships you can build can become really dear and affectionate, but they can also go the other direction, and you can end up with a frenemy who might end up causing you trouble."
Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/07/dd-strixhaven-book-drops-subclasses-adds-relationships.html
Seriously, this is college now?
SERIOUSLY?!
And the pre-built NPCs to shoehorn into a pre-existing campaign?
No. I don't want WotC pre-designed homoerotic hot-mess frenemies list. NO!
That seems like targeting your product to such a specific group, maybe more people are in that target demographic and I think. It just seems like a case of a company getting a bit too drunk on their own success (like Disney) and maybe forgetting their core objectives.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on August 27, 2021, 08:00:03 AM
BOL is now charging membership fees to access the comments to their articles on their site. Fuck'em, here they are directly from #Disqus (https://disqus.com/home/discussion/belloflostsouls/d038d_strixhaven_book_drops_subclasses_adds_relationships/).
Spoilers: None of them were complementary.
Checking this morning, it looks like it tosses up an ad for BOLS Prime but still opens access to the Disqus thread.
However, I am also running Scriptsafe on my browser and that occasionally breaks paywall code (LOL).
Quote from: Ocule on July 28, 2021, 11:49:13 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 28, 2021, 11:39:18 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 27, 2021, 06:08:26 PM
For the upcoming strixhaven book, I don't play 5e anymore but get a load of this
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/07/dd-strixhaven-book-drops-subclasses-adds-relationships.html
I mean other than the tumblr art cover Jesus fucking Christ just when it looked like they hit rock bottom they just keep on digging
Yes, yes they do keep digging and the opening sentence of the article had me lol, "D&D players prove that they hate fun and fear change: WotC has announced they're dropping new subclass concepts from the upcoming Strixhaven book."
So the author got their cheerios peed in eh?
I mean I play 5e cause of family (not my preferred) but WotC lost any income from me with that craptacular Van Recktem's guide
They lost me with Tashas, it was the last straw for me
Same here. I was interested in maybe a Dark Sun or Greyhawk setting book, but after Tasha's I find myself no longer even interested in whatever they come up with next.
Quote from: wmarshal on August 27, 2021, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: Ocule on July 28, 2021, 11:49:13 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 28, 2021, 11:39:18 AM
Quote from: Ocule on July 27, 2021, 06:08:26 PM
For the upcoming strixhaven book, I don't play 5e anymore but get a load of this
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/07/dd-strixhaven-book-drops-subclasses-adds-relationships.html
I mean other than the tumblr art cover Jesus fucking Christ just when it looked like they hit rock bottom they just keep on digging
Yes, yes they do keep digging and the opening sentence of the article had me lol, "D&D players prove that they hate fun and fear change: WotC has announced they're dropping new subclass concepts from the upcoming Strixhaven book."
So the author got their cheerios peed in eh?
I mean I play 5e cause of family (not my preferred) but WotC lost any income from me with that craptacular Van Recktem's guide
They lost me with Tashas, it was the last straw for me
Same here. I was interested in maybe a Dark Sun or Greyhawk setting book, but after Tasha's I find myself no longer even interested in whatever they come up with next.
Yeah. I actually don't want them to make setting books for the settings I like. They are guaranteed to screw it up, and all the lemmings will want to use the WotC trash...
I was going to comment on the artwork and link to something for comparison, but after what happened the last time I did...better not to.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 02:00:57 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 28, 2021, 12:25:57 PM
I know it's so weird. I was hardcore D&D/AD&D. I played BECM D&D and AD&D simultaneously when I got into the hobby. When 2nd came along I was hyped and loved it. Third came along and I'm like okay some of the stuff looks cool. But since 3.5 WotC always, always, has some straw for me that breaks me. In the 3e/3.5e/D20 era it was the proliferation of feats/magic items. I bought the core three for 4e and I'm like, where's my D&D, wasn't for me. 5e comes along and I was all on board. Really liked how design had advanced but still felt like D&D to me. Then this woke bullshit. And I bought Tasha's thinking okay other systems don't have the sacred cows of racial stat modifiers, maybe I can live with it. But not anymore.
I know I'm not in their target audience. There was an info-graph a couple of months ago and my age bracket (late 40's early 50's) is so small. I'm still in that phase of the relationship where I'm sad but I know I need to let it go. Ah well, I'm glad for the OSR. There are fantastic games out there. DCC is really fun right now.
Funny thing is your age bracket (and mine) has the most dispossable income to drop into hobbies, if D&D/Marvel/DC/etc have less people of that bracket buying their product it's due to their intentional alienation of said consumer base.
Incorrect. It's the 20-somethings with jobs but no mortgage, spouse, or kids who have the most disposable income to drop on hobbies. Always has been, and always will be. Your age the money is dominated by other things and hobby expenditures usually decrease. 20-somethings are not usually choosing between buying a new circular saw or a $100 RPG book. 40-somethings do make those choices, and more often choose the saw.
Also, RPG sales keep going up and up and up. It's not that the 40-60 year olds stopped buying (they've remained roughly stable), it's that the teens and 20-somethings are buying a shit-ton more.
Quote from: Spinachcat on August 03, 2021, 12:25:46 AM
Suck the gay penis 5e players! Suck it or lose virtue points!
What, are you in 3rd grade Spinachcat? Why go there?
BTW why isn't this in the RPG forum?
Quote from: Mistwell on August 31, 2021, 10:48:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 02:00:57 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 28, 2021, 12:25:57 PM
I know it's so weird. I was hardcore D&D/AD&D. I played BECM D&D and AD&D simultaneously when I got into the hobby. When 2nd came along I was hyped and loved it. Third came along and I'm like okay some of the stuff looks cool. But since 3.5 WotC always, always, has some straw for me that breaks me. In the 3e/3.5e/D20 era it was the proliferation of feats/magic items. I bought the core three for 4e and I'm like, where's my D&D, wasn't for me. 5e comes along and I was all on board. Really liked how design had advanced but still felt like D&D to me. Then this woke bullshit. And I bought Tasha's thinking okay other systems don't have the sacred cows of racial stat modifiers, maybe I can live with it. But not anymore.
I know I'm not in their target audience. There was an info-graph a couple of months ago and my age bracket (late 40's early 50's) is so small. I'm still in that phase of the relationship where I'm sad but I know I need to let it go. Ah well, I'm glad for the OSR. There are fantastic games out there. DCC is really fun right now.
Funny thing is your age bracket (and mine) has the most dispossable income to drop into hobbies, if D&D/Marvel/DC/etc have less people of that bracket buying their product it's due to their intentional alienation of said consumer base.
Incorrect. It's the 20-somethings with jobs but no mortgage, spouse, or kids who have the most disposable income to drop on hobbies. Always has been, and always will be. Your age the money is dominated by other things and hobby expenditures usually decrease. 20-somethings are not usually choosing between buying a new circular saw or a $100 RPG book. 40-somethings do make those choices, and more often choose the saw.
Also, RPG sales keep going up and up and up. It's not that the 40-60 year olds stopped buying (they've remained roughly stable), it's that the teens and 20-somethings are buying a shit-ton more.
I love how you just assert this as fact. Twenty year-olds may have fewer expenses and more disposable income as a percentage of their income, but they also make far less than forty to sixty year-olds. Many professionals might see their salaries double or triple by the time they retire. It's not twenty year-olds who buy the bulk of collectible figurines and such trivial items (and those cost a lot more than RPGs and have much less "utility"). So it's not clearly cut-and-dried, like you assert. Younger players tend to buy the electronic versions of RPGs, which are more easily tracked. But there is very little data available to the public about the age of most purchases, be they electronic or hardcopy.
The problem I'm having is: I do not understand this.
I literally cannot grasp how the people behind this sort of thing ever got into a position to do this. I understand the leftist concept of the "long slow march through the institutions," but how does that sort of thing keep working?
The financial effect it all has on every single institution that has ever been so overrun is by now obvious: "Star Trek," comics, "Star Wars," "He-Man," the list is endless. If nothing else humans do have an instinct for self-preservation- so why do these people keep leaping off cliffs like stereotypical lemmings? Can't male executives, writers, and artists, especially white heterosexual ones, see that they are destroying themselves?
Is Wizards of the Coast doing so well that they can keep going down this road? Are these people all getting a monthly check from George Soros so they don't have to care? Roosh has said that the goal of corporations is no longer to make money but just to indoctrinate, was he THAT accurate?
That's that part I don't understand- why are all these entities committing mass suicide?
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 01, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
The problem I'm having is: I do not understand this.
I literally cannot grasp how the people behind this sort of thing ever got into a position to do this. I understand the leftist concept of the "long slow march through the institutions," but how does that sort of thing keep working?
The financial effect it all has on every single institution that has ever been so overrun is by now obvious: "Star Trek," comics, "Star Wars," "He-Man," the list is endless. If nothing else humans do have an instinct for self-preservation- so why do these people keep leaping off cliffs like stereotypical lemmings? Can't male executives, writers, and artists, especially white heterosexual ones, see that they are destroying themselves?
Is Wizards of the Coast doing so well that they can keep going down this road? Are these people all getting a monthly check from George Soros so they don't have to care? Roosh has said that the goal of corporations is no longer to make money but just to indoctrinate, was he THAT accurate?
That's that part I don't understand- why are all these entities committing mass suicide?
You might consider picking up Bernard Goldberg's book 'Bias', which talks about how screwed up the echo chamber of journalism is.
Short form, it's not a conspiracy per se. It's closer to a hive mind where everyone thinks the same, all their friends and coworkers think the same, and there's no dissenting opinions. They don't think of it as committing suicide (even when it is) because all their focus groups say it's TOTALLY fine.
There's also the aspect of insulation. Marvel hasn't started to crack yet because they're well padded with money from the MCU movies that weren't complete shit. WotC is padded from MtG (for now). And you can bet the designers and execs will never be let go 'because you ran the fucking company into the ground!'. No, they'll be ushered out to 'explore independent ideas' or some such tripe.
What is "MtG?"
But it's been happening for years now. "Solo" LOST over $100,000,000 dollars, something nobody from my time would have thought possible: a "Star Wars" movie LOSING money.
As for conspiracy- I'm sorry, but it is. For decades now our society is being undermined. The original idea behind Dungeons and Dragons was good vs. evil, with players clearly encouraged to choose the side of good (one look in the 1977 "Monster Manual" made it obvious that good dragons were superior to evil ones); naturally this had to be done away with via a version of Critical Theory.
But people have been losing their jobs and money. The entertainment industry has had to lay off more and more people. Disney is filled with infighting due to losses. No focus group can conceal something even a 55-year-old like me has known for some time. When does the human instinct for selfish self-preservation finally kick in?
What has happened to everything?
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 01, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
The problem I'm having is: I do not understand this.
I literally cannot grasp how the people behind this sort of thing ever got into a position to do this. I understand the leftist concept of the "long slow march through the institutions," but how does that sort of thing keep working?
The financial effect it all has on every single institution that has ever been so overrun is by now obvious: "Star Trek," comics, "Star Wars," "He-Man," the list is endless. If nothing else humans do have an instinct for self-preservation- so why do these people keep leaping off cliffs like stereotypical lemmings? Can't male executives, writers, and artists, especially white heterosexual ones, see that they are destroying themselves?
Is Wizards of the Coast doing so well that they can keep going down this road? Are these people all getting a monthly check from George Soros so they don't have to care? Roosh has said that the goal of corporations is no longer to make money but just to indoctrinate, was he THAT accurate?
That's that part I don't understand- why are all these entities committing mass suicide?
It's you misreading the goals of this and the other more recent planned book. Both are intended for a YOUNGER audience. That's it. All the stuff you're all worked up about is mild and secondary. The primary goal is stuff you can play with kids, most of which involves encounters that can be resolved without combat. There is some demand for this kind of content but it's in no way the new standard. It will sell well to that portion of the audience which likes this stuff, and that's it. Nobody is committing suicide. Their sales continue to increase.
I know you and others often try to compare WOTC to Comics. And yet, Comics just had their best year ever also (https://www.comicsbeat.com/report-comics-had-their-biggest-year-ever-in-2020-despite-the-pandemic/). You will now undoubtedly insert excuse and diversion #963 for how that could be but it all amounts to the same bullshit. They're not committing suicide - they're all doing fine despite not catering to your tastes.
It always starts as you say. Sometimes it's "just a discussion," sometimes just...then look what happens.
Sure, they are all doing well- sure. That's why comic shops are closing, nobody is buying, and the ratings for sports, awards shows, etc. are in the sewers.
Some people seem to want to keep their heads so far in the sand they can strike oil. Don't try links like that on someone who did learn about statistics.
By the by:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-sjws-cancel-dragonlance-authors-sue-wizards/
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 01, 2021, 05:24:33 PM
By the by:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-sjws-cancel-dragonlance-authors-sue-wizards/
Thats been sorted, Dragonlance authors now on board with wizards to produce Fizbans Dragon book.
Quote from: Mistwell on September 01, 2021, 05:22:18 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 01, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
The problem I'm having is: I do not understand this.
I literally cannot grasp how the people behind this sort of thing ever got into a position to do this. I understand the leftist concept of the "long slow march through the institutions," but how does that sort of thing keep working?
The financial effect it all has on every single institution that has ever been so overrun is by now obvious: "Star Trek," comics, "Star Wars," "He-Man," the list is endless. If nothing else humans do have an instinct for self-preservation- so why do these people keep leaping off cliffs like stereotypical lemmings? Can't male executives, writers, and artists, especially white heterosexual ones, see that they are destroying themselves?
Is Wizards of the Coast doing so well that they can keep going down this road? Are these people all getting a monthly check from George Soros so they don't have to care? Roosh has said that the goal of corporations is no longer to make money but just to indoctrinate, was he THAT accurate?
That's that part I don't understand- why are all these entities committing mass suicide?
It's you misreading the goals of this and the other more recent planned book. Both are intended for a YOUNGER audience. That's it. All the stuff you're all worked up about is mild and secondary. The primary goal is stuff you can play with kids, most of which involves encounters that can be resolved without combat. There is some demand for this kind of content but it's in no way the new standard. It will sell well to that portion of the audience which likes this stuff, and that's it. Nobody is committing suicide. Their sales continue to increase.
I know you and others often try to compare WOTC to Comics. And yet, Comics just had their best year ever also (https://www.comicsbeat.com/report-comics-had-their-biggest-year-ever-in-2020-despite-the-pandemic/). You will now undoubtedly insert excuse and diversion #963 for how that could be but it all amounts to the same bullshit. They're not committing suicide - they're all doing fine despite not catering to your tastes.
When people compare WOTC to comics, I think they are implying DC and Marvel. DC and Marvel are NOT having their best year ever. Comics, especially if you include Manga are doing fantastic, but it is often through places like Indigogo, where people who were canceled out of working for DC like Ethan Van Scriver is doing millions in sales. I do not disagree that WOTC might be doing OK with younger people by having a whole book dedicated to gay prom, but Marvel and DC are further down the train wreck road than they are. They are not doing fine, at all.
Quote from: oggsmash on September 01, 2021, 08:21:46 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 01, 2021, 05:22:18 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 01, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
The problem I'm having is: I do not understand this.
I literally cannot grasp how the people behind this sort of thing ever got into a position to do this. I understand the leftist concept of the "long slow march through the institutions," but how does that sort of thing keep working?
The financial effect it all has on every single institution that has ever been so overrun is by now obvious: "Star Trek," comics, "Star Wars," "He-Man," the list is endless. If nothing else humans do have an instinct for self-preservation- so why do these people keep leaping off cliffs like stereotypical lemmings? Can't male executives, writers, and artists, especially white heterosexual ones, see that they are destroying themselves?
Is Wizards of the Coast doing so well that they can keep going down this road? Are these people all getting a monthly check from George Soros so they don't have to care? Roosh has said that the goal of corporations is no longer to make money but just to indoctrinate, was he THAT accurate?
That's that part I don't understand- why are all these entities committing mass suicide?
It's you misreading the goals of this and the other more recent planned book. Both are intended for a YOUNGER audience. That's it. All the stuff you're all worked up about is mild and secondary. The primary goal is stuff you can play with kids, most of which involves encounters that can be resolved without combat. There is some demand for this kind of content but it's in no way the new standard. It will sell well to that portion of the audience which likes this stuff, and that's it. Nobody is committing suicide. Their sales continue to increase.
I know you and others often try to compare WOTC to Comics. And yet, Comics just had their best year ever also (https://www.comicsbeat.com/report-comics-had-their-biggest-year-ever-in-2020-despite-the-pandemic/). You will now undoubtedly insert excuse and diversion #963 for how that could be but it all amounts to the same bullshit. They're not committing suicide - they're all doing fine despite not catering to your tastes.
When people compare WOTC to comics, I think they are implying DC and Marvel. DC and Marvel are NOT having their best year ever. Comics, especially if you include Manga are doing fantastic, but it is often through places like Indigogo, where people who were canceled out of working for DC like Ethan Van Scriver is doing millions in sales. I do not disagree that WOTC might be doing OK with younger people by having a whole book dedicated to gay prom, but Marvel and DC are further down the train wreck road than they are. They are not doing fine, at all.
Like Scholastic and IDW and the various Manga publishers are not also advocating for more social justice these days? It's not Indigogo that's a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the total.
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 01, 2021, 04:58:05 PM
What is "MtG?"
Magic: the Gathering. It's a card game that basically prints money for Wizards of the Coast. It's also horribly broken and basically a huge scam, but that doesn't stop a lot of people from each sinking many thousands of dollars into cards each year.
Quote from: Brand55 on September 02, 2021, 01:03:45 AM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 01, 2021, 04:58:05 PM
What is "MtG?"
Magic: the Gathering. It's a card game that basically prints money for Wizards of the Coast. It's also horribly broken and basically a huge scam, but that doesn't stop a lot of people from each sinking many thousands of dollars into cards each year.
A cool million NZD and this little beauty is all yours
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZlgAAOSwZrhaVDED/s-l1600.jpg)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/232624529959 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/232624529959)
Quote from: Mistwell on September 02, 2021, 12:01:40 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on September 01, 2021, 08:21:46 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 01, 2021, 05:22:18 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 01, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
The problem I'm having is: I do not understand this.
I literally cannot grasp how the people behind this sort of thing ever got into a position to do this. I understand the leftist concept of the "long slow march through the institutions," but how does that sort of thing keep working?
The financial effect it all has on every single institution that has ever been so overrun is by now obvious: "Star Trek," comics, "Star Wars," "He-Man," the list is endless. If nothing else humans do have an instinct for self-preservation- so why do these people keep leaping off cliffs like stereotypical lemmings? Can't male executives, writers, and artists, especially white heterosexual ones, see that they are destroying themselves?
Is Wizards of the Coast doing so well that they can keep going down this road? Are these people all getting a monthly check from George Soros so they don't have to care? Roosh has said that the goal of corporations is no longer to make money but just to indoctrinate, was he THAT accurate?
That's that part I don't understand- why are all these entities committing mass suicide?
It's you misreading the goals of this and the other more recent planned book. Both are intended for a YOUNGER audience. That's it. All the stuff you're all worked up about is mild and secondary. The primary goal is stuff you can play with kids, most of which involves encounters that can be resolved without combat. There is some demand for this kind of content but it's in no way the new standard. It will sell well to that portion of the audience which likes this stuff, and that's it. Nobody is committing suicide. Their sales continue to increase.
I know you and others often try to compare WOTC to Comics. And yet, Comics just had their best year ever also (https://www.comicsbeat.com/report-comics-had-their-biggest-year-ever-in-2020-despite-the-pandemic/). You will now undoubtedly insert excuse and diversion #963 for how that could be but it all amounts to the same bullshit. They're not committing suicide - they're all doing fine despite not catering to your tastes.
When people compare WOTC to comics, I think they are implying DC and Marvel. DC and Marvel are NOT having their best year ever. Comics, especially if you include Manga are doing fantastic, but it is often through places like Indigogo, where people who were canceled out of working for DC like Ethan Van Scriver is doing millions in sales. I do not disagree that WOTC might be doing OK with younger people by having a whole book dedicated to gay prom, but Marvel and DC are further down the train wreck road than they are. They are not doing fine, at all.
Like Scholastic and IDW and the various Manga publishers are not also advocating for more social justice these days? It's not Indigogo that's a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the total.
Almost ALL comics have almost ALWAYS advocated for more social justice. Race swapping heroes, retroactively making them gay, and dramatically changing themes, and sacrificing quality for diversity hires is what is killing DC and Marvel. what various other publishers are doing is not the point, just like making gay prom suddenly a central idea, it is the rapid jarring swapping out of direction. I have no idea if this is long term good or bad for WOTC, vaping is very popular, but it is not for me. WOTC has said to me, it is not for me. I do not care if they succeed or fail, but they are treading a path where they will become something else, if that works out for them, I dont care. If that makes them crash, I dont care.
Quote from: oggsmash on September 02, 2021, 05:33:27 AM
Almost ALL comics have almost ALWAYS advocated for more social justice. Race swapping heroes, retroactively making them gay, and dramatically changing themes, and sacrificing quality for diversity hires is what is killing DC and Marvel. what various other publishers are doing is not the point, just like making gay prom suddenly a central idea, it is the rapid jarring swapping out of direction. I have no idea if this is long term good or bad for WOTC, vaping is very popular, but it is not for me. WOTC has said to me, it is not for me. I do not care if they succeed or fail, but they are treading a path where they will become something else, if that works out for them, I dont care. If that makes them crash, I dont care.
This is what I don't understand about this puritan push in comics and RPGs. Both have always been very progressive for their time. It's when it moves from art to propaganda when it starts to feel not fun. I can't tell you exactly where the line is but you really feel it when it crosses that Rubicon.
"Your imaginary elf is non-binary? Fine whatever as long as it doesn't derail the game."
"Why does every village in this imaginary elf land have black folk and a higher than demographic representation of alphabet people? Are these purse puppies?"
Quote from: KingCheops on September 02, 2021, 11:20:45 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on September 02, 2021, 05:33:27 AM
Almost ALL comics have almost ALWAYS advocated for more social justice. Race swapping heroes, retroactively making them gay, and dramatically changing themes, and sacrificing quality for diversity hires is what is killing DC and Marvel. what various other publishers are doing is not the point, just like making gay prom suddenly a central idea, it is the rapid jarring swapping out of direction. I have no idea if this is long term good or bad for WOTC, vaping is very popular, but it is not for me. WOTC has said to me, it is not for me. I do not care if they succeed or fail, but they are treading a path where they will become something else, if that works out for them, I dont care. If that makes them crash, I dont care.
This is what I don't understand about this puritan push in comics and RPGs. Both have always been very progressive for their time. It's when it moves from art to propaganda when it starts to feel not fun. I can't tell you exactly where the line is but you really feel it when it crosses that Rubicon.
"Your imaginary elf is non-binary? Fine whatever as long as it doesn't derail the game."
"Why does every village in this imaginary elf land have black folk and a higher than demographic representation of alphabet people? Are these purse puppies?"
Captain America punching Hitler in the 1940s comics was both propaganda and plenty fun.
Quote from: Mistwell on September 01, 2021, 05:22:18 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 01, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
The problem I'm having is: I do not understand this.
I literally cannot grasp how the people behind this sort of thing ever got into a position to do this. I understand the leftist concept of the "long slow march through the institutions," but how does that sort of thing keep working?
The financial effect it all has on every single institution that has ever been so overrun is by now obvious: "Star Trek," comics, "Star Wars," "He-Man," the list is endless. If nothing else humans do have an instinct for self-preservation- so why do these people keep leaping off cliffs like stereotypical lemmings? Can't male executives, writers, and artists, especially white heterosexual ones, see that they are destroying themselves?
Is Wizards of the Coast doing so well that they can keep going down this road? Are these people all getting a monthly check from George Soros so they don't have to care? Roosh has said that the goal of corporations is no longer to make money but just to indoctrinate, was he THAT accurate?
That's that part I don't understand- why are all these entities committing mass suicide?
It's you misreading the goals of this and the other more recent planned book. Both are intended for a YOUNGER audience. That's it. All the stuff you're all worked up about is mild and secondary. The primary goal is stuff you can play with kids, most of which involves encounters that can be resolved without combat. There is some demand for this kind of content but it's in no way the new standard. It will sell well to that portion of the audience which likes this stuff, and that's it. Nobody is committing suicide. Their sales continue to increase.
I know you and others often try to compare WOTC to Comics. And yet, Comics just had their best year ever also (https://www.comicsbeat.com/report-comics-had-their-biggest-year-ever-in-2020-despite-the-pandemic/). You will now undoubtedly insert excuse and diversion #963 for how that could be but it all amounts to the same bullshit. They're not committing suicide - they're all doing fine despite not catering to your tastes.
You lying gaslighting piece of shit. Manga and anime are not comics. The piece literally says Manga and anime are added to these numbers. Western comics can't even get in the top twenty list for graphic novels. The big two are dying again after their small bump from being bought out by WB and Disney. Truthfully marvel comics would be dead and gone if the movies didn't fund them as a idea farm. Most western comics sell less than 50k now, when they use to sell half a million an issue.
More to the point one manga "Demon Slayer" to be exact out sells all of Western comics by it self. Now comic pros are using it's success as a benchmark of how their industry is doing.
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 01:38:33 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 01, 2021, 05:22:18 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 01, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
The problem I'm having is: I do not understand this.
I literally cannot grasp how the people behind this sort of thing ever got into a position to do this. I understand the leftist concept of the "long slow march through the institutions," but how does that sort of thing keep working?
The financial effect it all has on every single institution that has ever been so overrun is by now obvious: "Star Trek," comics, "Star Wars," "He-Man," the list is endless. If nothing else humans do have an instinct for self-preservation- so why do these people keep leaping off cliffs like stereotypical lemmings? Can't male executives, writers, and artists, especially white heterosexual ones, see that they are destroying themselves?
Is Wizards of the Coast doing so well that they can keep going down this road? Are these people all getting a monthly check from George Soros so they don't have to care? Roosh has said that the goal of corporations is no longer to make money but just to indoctrinate, was he THAT accurate?
That's that part I don't understand- why are all these entities committing mass suicide?
It's you misreading the goals of this and the other more recent planned book. Both are intended for a YOUNGER audience. That's it. All the stuff you're all worked up about is mild and secondary. The primary goal is stuff you can play with kids, most of which involves encounters that can be resolved without combat. There is some demand for this kind of content but it's in no way the new standard. It will sell well to that portion of the audience which likes this stuff, and that's it. Nobody is committing suicide. Their sales continue to increase.
I know you and others often try to compare WOTC to Comics. And yet, Comics just had their best year ever also (https://www.comicsbeat.com/report-comics-had-their-biggest-year-ever-in-2020-despite-the-pandemic/). You will now undoubtedly insert excuse and diversion #963 for how that could be but it all amounts to the same bullshit. They're not committing suicide - they're all doing fine despite not catering to your tastes.
You lying gaslighting piece of shit. Manga and anime are not comics. The piece literally says Manga and anime are added to these numbers. Western comics can't even get in the top twenty list for graphic novels. The big two are dying again after their small bump from being bought out by WB and Disney. Truthfully marvel comics would be dead and gone if the movies didn't fund them as a idea farm. Most western comics sell less than 50k now, when they use to sell half a million an issue.
More to the point one manga "Demon Slayer" to be exact out sells all of Western comics by it self. Now comic pros are using it's success as a benchmark of how their industry is doing.
Of course Manga is comics (and it doesn't say it's counting anime sales it's saying anime streaming is driving manga sales - reading comprehension is apparently not your forte). WTF are you blathering on about? Manga is by every definition "comics" it's just not your cup of tea apparently. I however was buying Lone Wolf and Cub in the 90s at comic con from Dark Horse Comics.
And Manga has been trending woke for years by the way. For example you mention Demon Slayer - Demon Slayer includes a young girl who is "pansexual." Another is lesbian.
One other trend is digital comics sales. And the third big trend is Scholastic, which is mostly middle-grade graphic novels for girls - also trending woke, and also selling gangbusters.
I am not saying Marvel and DC are doing awesome (though they are not doing nearly as poorly as you seem to think), I am saying comics are doing awesome. It's just not all traditional superheroes. Which you equate with comics and so get all riled up even though that hasn't been what "comics" means for over a decade. Because you're FUCKING OLD AND OUT OF TOUCH.
Comics was all sorts of genres before the comics code authority killed most of them and forced it all into superheroes, and comics is returning to being all sorts of genres now that the comics code doesn't dictate the medium anymore. And as they return to all genres, they're doing great. Even though many are trending woke.
Comics does not mean Marvel and DC superheroes, even though that's what it meant when you and I were younger (though I was quickly buying non-superhero stuff when it started to come out). Manga and Middle School girls oriented graphic novels are as comics as superman and X-men. You're just fucking old and raging against time not standing still. Which I get. I can identify with that. But it's not gaslighting you to tell you that's what you're experiencing. It's just a hard truth.
Meanwhile my kid is reading tons of middle grade Scholastic graphic novels and loving them. Some are more left-leaning, some are not. Honestly, they're kinda like the Judy Blume books of this decade (and she was also what would now be considered kinda "woke" for that era). My daughter likes them all. So do many MANY kids in her age group. It's just not made for you and me. Which is OK. I probably would have been into Dog Man had it been out when I was 9. I was into Bone in the 90s and Blankets in the early 2000s, and those fit right in with current comics trends. And they were also most certainly comics.
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 02:26:27 PMbullshit, piles of bullshit
Fuck your disingenuous ass manga ain't comics. They never have been. Manga has always been counted separately from comics for decades. And only now after decades of acceptance and popularity from former comics buyers, while the American comic industry is slowly dying a cancerous death, the western industry thumbtacks manga sales onto their dying industry.
Also forcing schools to buy your dog shit isn't a winning strategy for a for profit company. There is a reason a single manga outselled all western comics
COMBINED. But you think a dying industry is the same as a thriving one.
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 03:11:28 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 02:26:27 PMbullshit, piles of bullshit
Fuck your disingenuous ass manga ain't comics. They never have been. Manga has always been counted separately from comics for decades.
No, it has not. WTF is wrong with you? Of course Manga is comics. What about Manga isn't comics? I've bought Manga comics since the 1990s published by U.S. comics publishers like Dark Horse. Viz is making out like a bandit right now from selling Manga in the U.S.. You think Dark Horse and Viz are Japanese companies or something?
QuoteAlso forcing schools to buy your dog shit isn't a winning strategy for a for profit company. There is a reason a single manga outselled all western comics COMBINED. But you think a dying industry is the same as a thriving one.
Forcing schools? Bwahahaha jesus what nonsense are you spewing now? Scholastic is selling huge IN BOOK STORES AN ONLINE. My daughter has bought ever one of those books in Barnes and Noble. Scholastic, as a company, took a change in tactic some years ago. And it paid off huge. Kids were not buying Scholastic through schools - all those book drives at schools were called off last year anyway. You really have just no idea what the fuck you're talking about anymore when it comes to comics, do you? Which is OK, it's this blustering bullshit nonsense of you still pretending to know the industry when you know that you don't.
Comics is a thriving industry right now. It's just that superheroes is stagnant. But superheroes isn't all of comics and never was, except when the comics code forced it to be just that. Romance and westerns and war comics and fantasy and science fiction and adventure and all sorts of other genres once dominated comics before the code, and it's dominating the comics again now that the code is gone. You just think time was supposed to stand still because you think X-men and Teen Titans is supposed to be the beginning and end of comic books.
And who do you think is buying all that Manga by the way? I just told you Demon Slayer has woke characters in it too, and you admit it's selling huge, so where is your "get woke go broke" drivel now? What point are you even trying to make by arguing a woke Manga comic is outselling woke Superhero comics?
I know you're a lying piece of shit but don't stawman me. When did I mention anything about woke shit? You lying ass. And even comic pros don't lump manga in comic sells you disingenuous liar. How can one manga sell more than all comics if manga is comics you lying fuck?
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 04:18:19 PM
I know you're a lying piece of shit but don't stawman me. When did I mention anything about woke shit? You lying ass. And even comic pros don't lump manga in comic sells you disingenuous liar. How can one manga sell more than all comics if manga is comics you lying fuck?
Do you not even understand the point you were replying to, to begin with? People made the point of get woke go broke, just like comics. I said comics is doing great and so is RPG sales. People said comics isn't doing great, etc., until we got to this point. If you're not even arguing that point then what fucking point are you arguing?
Of course comics pros lump manga in with comics, because the people who create manga ARE COMICS PROS. Shit dude most American comics pros highly respect Japanese comics pros. They're all comics pros. Manga IS comics. It's not selling "more than comics" it IS comics, and it's selling more than AMERICAN SUPERHEROES COMICS.
I mean explain to me this, how is it that a British writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you agree it's a comic book but a Japanese writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you think it's not a comic? The only difference is the nationality of the author and artist. It's all comics. Comics is a medium of communication. As long as it meets the criteria for that content medium it doesn't matter the nationality of the creators.
Mistwell, you know perfectly well that Manga is NOT comics in a woke American sense.
Manga is willing to go ANYWHERE, and that would include anything that offends the left. Hyper-sexy busty anime girls in swimsuits running from a tiny robot spider finally shot by The Hyper-Masculine Hero so they lavish oh-gosh-thank-you appreciation on him? Villainous black guys beat up by heroic whites? Evil lesbians or homosexuals? Transexuals being made out to be insane? Manga does not care, and THAT'S why it does well.
But AMERICAN comics that went "woke" are dying. You know this is true.
What you are doing is lumping everything together as "proof" that you are right. That's like having a bunch of fat slow lazy women on a women's volleyball team except for one- Jaime Sommers, "The Bionic Woman." Lo and behold, that team wins. But it was ONLY because of Jaime, the others were worthless losers. If you take Manga or independent non-woke comics out of the equation where are you then? Are you really saying Marvel and DC are doing well when comics shops are closing AND HAVE BEEN FAILING well before covid-19?
The fact is that anything that has gone "woke" is going broke, and you know it. Awards shows ratings are in the sewer. Sports franchises are in serious trouble. American entertainment is going down in flames. I know how statistics can be manipulated, having learned that back in 1985, so do not try any such tricks with me.
As I said- some people have their heads so far in the sand they can strike oil. Anyone who fails to see the damage done to every institution that has gone "woke" is either willfully ignorant or just a liar.
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 04:18:19 PM
I know you're a lying piece of shit but don't stawman me. When did I mention anything about woke shit? You lying ass. And even comic pros don't lump manga in comic sells you disingenuous liar. How can one manga sell more than all comics if manga is comics you lying fuck?
if these things are so very much the same why do you label them with your own words as different you pedantic asshat.
Do you not even understand the point you were replying to, to begin with? People made the point of get woke go broke, just like comics. I said comics is doing great and so is RPG sales. People said comics isn't doing great, etc., until we got to this point. If you're not even arguing that point then what fucking point are you arguing?
Of course comics pros lump manga in with comics, because the people who create manga ARE COMICS PROS. Shit dude most American comics pros highly respect Japanese comics pros. They're all comics pros. Manga IS comics. It's not selling "more than comics" it IS comics, and it's selling more than AMERICAN SUPERHEROES COMICS.
I mean explain to me this, how is it that a British writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you agree it's a comic book but a Japanese writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you think it's not a comic? The only difference is the nationality of the author and artist. It's all comics. Comics is a medium of communication. As long as it meets the criteria for that content medium it doesn't matter the nationality of the creators.
If these things are the same why do you label them differently with your own words you pedantic asshat
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 06, 2021, 07:28:07 PM
Mistwell, you know perfectly well that Manga is NOT comics in a woke American sense.
Manga is willing to go ANYWHERE, and that would include anything that offends the left. Hyper-sexy busty anime girls in swimsuits running from a tiny robot spider finally shot by The Hyper-Masculine Hero so they lavish oh-gosh-thank-you appreciation on him? Villainous black guys beat up by heroic whites? Evil lesbians or homosexuals? Transexuals being made out to be insane? Manga does not care, and THAT'S why it does well.
You are lumping all Manga together like all their stories are the same, all their publishers and writers and artists are the same, etc.. It's as nonsense as if you'd said that about US writers and artists. You can find all that crazy shit with US writers and artists too, just not at Marvel and DC. You are again trying to conflate "comics" with "Marvel and DC because it's what my old ass is most familiar with."
And on an RPG board devoted to "Not 5e D&D" this is frankly fucking pathetic. Stop it. You know comics are not just the two superheroes companies in America, much like RPGs are not just WOTC and Paizo.
QuoteBut AMERICAN comics that went "woke" are dying. You know this is true.
Some are and some are not. Much like Manga. Again, the top selling Manga has a lesbian and a pansexual character. You know and I know if Marvel does that you freak out and call it woke. You're pretending it's not woke because it's inconvenient for your position. Despite the fact your play pretend is disingenuous.
QuoteWhat you are doing is lumping everything together as "proof" that you are right.
No I am lumping all comics together because it's ALL COMICS. You're doing this stupid tortured "It's comics unless it's written and drawn by Japanese people and then it "doesn't count" because of...reasons?"
QuoteThe fact is that anything that has gone "woke" is going broke, and you know it.
Manga which has gone woke is doing just fine. D&D 5e which has gone woke is doing fine. It's really dependent purely on if it's good or not. Good woke sells well. Bad woke sells poorly. That's it. That's the only pattern here. If it's well written and drawn it will sell well. If it's not it won't. Whether it's woke or not is not really that relevant to whether it sells well or not.
QuoteSports franchises are in serious trouble. American entertainment is going down in flames.
Wow. The stupid is strong in you. Literally nothing you just said is true in any way. It is in fact the opposite. I cannot believe how ridiculously out of touch old man yelling at the clouds you sound right now.
Live sports are the top of the ratings. American entertainment continues to dominate the world - particularly American video games right now. It's just that you're stuck on the stuff you enjoyed 20 years ago and don't watch new trends. Despite watching new trends 20 years ago when you were young.
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 07:53:59 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 04:18:19 PM
I know you're a lying piece of shit but don't stawman me. When did I mention anything about woke shit? You lying ass. And even comic pros don't lump manga in comic sells you disingenuous liar. How can one manga sell more than all comics if manga is comics you lying fuck?
if these things are so very much the same why do you label them with your own words as different you pedantic asshat.
Do you not even understand the point you were replying to, to begin with? People made the point of get woke go broke, just like comics. I said comics is doing great and so is RPG sales. People said comics isn't doing great, etc., until we got to this point. If you're not even arguing that point then what fucking point are you arguing?
Of course comics pros lump manga in with comics, because the people who create manga ARE COMICS PROS. Shit dude most American comics pros highly respect Japanese comics pros. They're all comics pros. Manga IS comics. It's not selling "more than comics" it IS comics, and it's selling more than AMERICAN SUPERHEROES COMICS.
I mean explain to me this, how is it that a British writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you agree it's a comic book but a Japanese writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you think it's not a comic? The only difference is the nationality of the author and artist. It's all comics. Comics is a medium of communication. As long as it meets the criteria for that content medium it doesn't matter the nationality of the creators.
If these things are the same why do you label them differently with your own words you pedantic asshat
Why do I label Manga comics as different from Superhero comics? Because most manga comics are not about superheroes? Manga is in fact mostly written by Japanese people, mostly drawn by Japanese people, and mostly represents a certain comics art style. This does not in any way make it not comics, much like Kirby-esque comics are stil comics despite being mostly Americans with a specific American style. It's still all comics though.
I am starting to wonder if this is a racist thing? Why is it meaningful to you to call it "not comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from Japan, but it is "comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from England? Is it comics if it's written and drawn by someone from France ?
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 08:11:44 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 07:53:59 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 04:18:19 PM
I know you're a lying piece of shit but don't stawman me. When did I mention anything about woke shit? You lying ass. And even comic pros don't lump manga in comic sells you disingenuous liar. How can one manga sell more than all comics if manga is comics you lying fuck?
if these things are so very much the same why do you label them with your own words as different you pedantic asshat.
Do you not even understand the point you were replying to, to begin with? People made the point of get woke go broke, just like comics. I said comics is doing great and so is RPG sales. People said comics isn't doing great, etc., until we got to this point. If you're not even arguing that point then what fucking point are you arguing?
Of course comics pros lump manga in with comics, because the people who create manga ARE COMICS PROS. Shit dude most American comics pros highly respect Japanese comics pros. They're all comics pros. Manga IS comics. It's not selling "more than comics" it IS comics, and it's selling more than AMERICAN SUPERHEROES COMICS.
I mean explain to me this, how is it that a British writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you agree it's a comic book but a Japanese writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you think it's not a comic? The only difference is the nationality of the author and artist. It's all comics. Comics is a medium of communication. As long as it meets the criteria for that content medium it doesn't matter the nationality of the creators.
If these things are the same why do you label them differently with your own words you pedantic asshat
Why do I label Manga comics as different from Superhero comics? Because most manga comics are not about superheroes? Manga is in fact mostly written by Japanese people, mostly drawn by Japanese people, and mostly represents a certain comics art style. This does not in any way make it not comics, much like Kirby-esque comics are stil comics despite being mostly Americans with a specific American style. It's still all comics though.
I am starting to wonder if this is a racist thing? Why is it meaningful to you to call it "not comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from Japan, but it is "comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from England? Is it comics if it's written and drawn by someone from France ?
Wow your strawmanning is getting tiring.
You
Are
Wrong
You know you are wrong, but continue to flail about yelling into the wind that different things are the same. Words have meanings and next you are going to say apples are oranges because they are both fruit. But everyone else will continue on with their lives as you eat paste.
Mist let's go back to grade school and help you understand similar things can be different. Look at this
(https://horsej-intellectsolutio.netdna-ssl.com/files/styles/article_large/public/pictures-videos/articles/canstockphoto24623274_-_callipso88-web.jpg?itok=BdmG23rI)
See how both have brown fur, four legs, and long muzzles? Would you call them the same animal? Hopefully not. Now let's see how comics and manga can be different.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6a/1f/7c/6a1f7c99207f8d0548b5694303eec753.jpg)
Now hopefully you see know that while they are somewhat similar mediums, these are in fact different mediums. If not, there is no hope for you not to be a dishonest twat.
What disturbs me the most about you, Mistwell, is not just the fact that you are ignoring reality but the damage this inflicts.
Disney and Kathleen Turner basically ruined the "Star Wars" franchise, but the ones on top are not going to suffer. They are rich.
It is the "little guys" who will suffer because of mentalities like yours. The technicians, the extras, the caterers, the cameramen. In the comics field the artists, the delivery people, the comic book shops. And these are just a few, at the mercy of the "woke" and people like you who encourage it.
But you don't care, do you? That's the worst part of it.
And yes, I have been around for a while. So I have seen firsthand the damage political correctness has done to everything. To me it is experienced, not just theory. And the results are dreadful and even cruel. And for what?
People call it woke when Marvel does it because THEY TAKE AN ESTABLISHED CHARACTER AND RETCON THEM FOR THE SAKE OF SOME SJW ARTIST'S EGO. IF a character is panbigenderqueer no one gives a fuck if the character is interesting and every frame does not revolve around who they want to bang. MAKE A NEW CHARACTER just like Manga does, IMO if you are a Marvel or a DC. If the character catches on, so be it. But stop taking other people's work and fucking it up.
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 06, 2021, 09:43:17 PM
What disturbs me the most about you, Mistwell, is not just the fact that you are ignoring reality but the damage this inflicts.
Disney and Kathleen Turner basically ruined the "Star Wars" franchise, but the ones on top are not going to suffer. They are rich.
It is the "little guys" who will suffer because of mentalities like yours. The technicians, the extras, the caterers, the cameramen. In the comics field the artists, the delivery people, the comic book shops. And these are just a few, at the mercy of the "woke" and people like you who encourage it.
But you don't care, do you? That's the worst part of it.
And yes, I have been around for a while. So I have seen firsthand the damage political correctness has done to everything. To me it is experienced, not just theory. And the results are dreadful and even cruel. And for what?
And think of their children too!
Greetings!
*SIGH* Some people, such as Mistwell, think that the "Comics Industry" is doing great. Mistwell approves of the new, woke changes and standards. For those people that don't like "Woke Comics"--yeah, the industry is going into the fucking toilet, and fast.
That's exactly what the SJW Woke fucktards like though. THEY LOVE WALLOWING IN SHIT AND DEPRAVITY. They enjoy all of the traditionalists fans of comics--or movies, or anything, really--gnashing your teeth and having seizures of rage. They enjoy the lamentations of traditional books being replaced by rainbow hippos. They giggle in glee when woke teachers pump your kids with Marxist and Feminist brainwashing. They love destroying culture and making everything into a fucking Marxist zombie wasteland. Just open your mouth wide like a little bird and gulp the woke juice down! GULP! GULP! GULP IT THE FUCK DOWN!
And you had best enjoy it, too. So it goes with the comic book industry. EXPECT it to wallow in shit. And don't be surprised that woke comics have many, many fans and cheerleaders, like Mistwell. Mistwell *always* gets into these kinds of arguments, where he champions the woke comic book industry, obfuscates and minimizes. It doesn't really have anything to do with facts though, but political culture, ideology, and traditions. Mistwell approves and supports the new changes--and many traditional comics fans don't. That kind of divide is never going to be resolved with "facts".
I also imagine that STRIXHAVEN will sell very well. There are lots of "Gamers" out there that eagerly jump on gay and trans fucking drama. Their whole lives revolve around this, including their game sessions. It isn't surprising that WOTC is producing a book that appeals to an increasingly feminized segment of the gaming market that is dominated by woke Marxist activists, millennials, and rainbow hippos. That such a segment of the gaming community may not be composed of high numbers is not necessarily relevant. They all buy books reliably, based on being emotionally pandered to. They are all social media hounds, so they chatter, broadcast and support everyone else in the hive mind to buy and support such woke books and modules, so far from "going broke"--they represent a fairly considerable segment of the market that is profitable for WOTC to cater to. Then, well, when most of the WOTC writers and staff are also very WOKE, yeah, they are going to be joyful about creating books like Strixhaven.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 08:46:55 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 08:11:44 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 07:53:59 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 04:18:19 PM
I know you're a lying piece of shit but don't stawman me. When did I mention anything about woke shit? You lying ass. And even comic pros don't lump manga in comic sells you disingenuous liar. How can one manga sell more than all comics if manga is comics you lying fuck?
if these things are so very much the same why do you label them with your own words as different you pedantic asshat.
Do you not even understand the point you were replying to, to begin with? People made the point of get woke go broke, just like comics. I said comics is doing great and so is RPG sales. People said comics isn't doing great, etc., until we got to this point. If you're not even arguing that point then what fucking point are you arguing?
Of course comics pros lump manga in with comics, because the people who create manga ARE COMICS PROS. Shit dude most American comics pros highly respect Japanese comics pros. They're all comics pros. Manga IS comics. It's not selling "more than comics" it IS comics, and it's selling more than AMERICAN SUPERHEROES COMICS.
I mean explain to me this, how is it that a British writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you agree it's a comic book but a Japanese writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you think it's not a comic? The only difference is the nationality of the author and artist. It's all comics. Comics is a medium of communication. As long as it meets the criteria for that content medium it doesn't matter the nationality of the creators.
If these things are the same why do you label them differently with your own words you pedantic asshat
Why do I label Manga comics as different from Superhero comics? Because most manga comics are not about superheroes? Manga is in fact mostly written by Japanese people, mostly drawn by Japanese people, and mostly represents a certain comics art style. This does not in any way make it not comics, much like Kirby-esque comics are stil comics despite being mostly Americans with a specific American style. It's still all comics though.
I am starting to wonder if this is a racist thing? Why is it meaningful to you to call it "not comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from Japan, but it is "comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from England? Is it comics if it's written and drawn by someone from France ?
Wow your strawmanning is getting tiring.
You
Are
Wrong
You know you are wrong, but continue to flail about yelling into the wind that different things are the same. Words have meanings and next you are going to say apples are oranges because they are both fruit. But everyone else will continue on with their lives as you eat paste.
I am right, and I worked in this industry specifically and have many current friends working in that industry specifically. Manga is part of comics. You can offer zero explanation for why it wouldn't be comics other than "because" followed by insults. I keep asking you how it's not comics and you have no cogent answer which doesn't come down to "because." It's nonsense man. Of course manga is comics!
Quote from: SHARK on September 07, 2021, 12:01:47 AM
Greetings!
*SIGH* Some people, such as Mistwell, think that the "Comics Industry" is doing great. Mistwell approves of the new, woke changes and standards. For those people that don't like "Woke Comics"--yeah, the industry is going into the fucking toilet, and fast.
I didn't say I approve of anything. I said comics as an industry is doing great.
QuoteAnd you had best enjoy it, too. So it goes with the comic book industry. EXPECT it to wallow in shit. And don't be surprised that woke comics have many, many fans and cheerleaders, like Mistwell. Mistwell *always* gets into these kinds of arguments, where he champions the woke comic book industry, obfuscates and minimizes. It doesn't really have anything to do with facts though, but political culture, ideology, and traditions. Mistwell approves and supports the new changes--and many traditional comics fans don't. That kind of divide is never going to be resolved with "facts".
I didn't champion the woke-ness I said the industry is doing well. And I am literally the only guy in this whole thread who used facts to support his position, linking to the sales article about the comics industry. NOBODY has presented a single shred of evidence to support their claims beyond "because I said so."
QuoteI also imagine that STRIXHAVEN will sell very well. There are lots of "Gamers" out there that eagerly jump on gay and trans fucking drama.
It's really not that. You guys are spinning it as that, but that's really not what this is. It's trying to attract a younger audience. That's it. That's all this is. It's just a Harry Potter type setting, with a lot more challenges which can be resolved without combat. All this stuff about trans and gay...none of that is what this book is about.
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 09:01:37 PM
Mist let's go back to grade school and help you understand similar things can be different. Look at this
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6a/1f/7c/6a1f7c99207f8d0548b5694303eec753.jpg)
Now hopefully you see know that while they are somewhat similar mediums, these are in fact different mediums. If not, there is no hope for you not to be a dishonest twat.
Just total nonsense. How often they publish (weekly vs monthly) is a different medium, even though some manga publishes monthly or even later than that? Black and white vs color (though plenty of Americans also publish in black and white) is a different medium, not to mention some manga is also color? More places sell them? Come on, NONE of this is about being a different medium! It's the same fucking medium. ALL of the items listed here at various times have happened with American comics too. And fuck that "Story moves at a quicker pace" nonsense, that person has never read Lone Wolf and Cub which is one of the top Manga comics of history and moves like a snail!
This is just some weird promo. Manga IS comics. I mean, look it up. Go get a definition of manga and look for yourself.
Edit - from the page that graphic is from, "Eventually, it is hard to determine which kind of comics is better. " So even that author agrees both are comics!
Quote from: Mistwell on September 07, 2021, 12:06:41 AM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 08:46:55 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 08:11:44 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 07:53:59 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 04:18:19 PM
I know you're a lying piece of shit but don't stawman me. When did I mention anything about woke shit? You lying ass. And even comic pros don't lump manga in comic sells you disingenuous liar. How can one manga sell more than all comics if manga is comics you lying fuck?
if these things are so very much the same why do you label them with your own words as different you pedantic asshat.
Do you not even understand the point you were replying to, to begin with? People made the point of get woke go broke, just like comics. I said comics is doing great and so is RPG sales. People said comics isn't doing great, etc., until we got to this point. If you're not even arguing that point then what fucking point are you arguing?
Of course comics pros lump manga in with comics, because the people who create manga ARE COMICS PROS. Shit dude most American comics pros highly respect Japanese comics pros. They're all comics pros. Manga IS comics. It's not selling "more than comics" it IS comics, and it's selling more than AMERICAN SUPERHEROES COMICS.
I mean explain to me this, how is it that a British writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you agree it's a comic book but a Japanese writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you think it's not a comic? The only difference is the nationality of the author and artist. It's all comics. Comics is a medium of communication. As long as it meets the criteria for that content medium it doesn't matter the nationality of the creators.
If these things are the same why do you label them differently with your own words you pedantic asshat
Why do I label Manga comics as different from Superhero comics? Because most manga comics are not about superheroes? Manga is in fact mostly written by Japanese people, mostly drawn by Japanese people, and mostly represents a certain comics art style. This does not in any way make it not comics, much like Kirby-esque comics are stil comics despite being mostly Americans with a specific American style. It's still all comics though.
I am starting to wonder if this is a racist thing? Why is it meaningful to you to call it "not comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from Japan, but it is "comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from England? Is it comics if it's written and drawn by someone from France ?
Wow your strawmanning is getting tiring.
You
Are
Wrong
You know you are wrong, but continue to flail about yelling into the wind that different things are the same. Words have meanings and next you are going to say apples are oranges because they are both fruit. But everyone else will continue on with their lives as you eat paste.
I am right, and I worked in this industry specifically and have many current friends working in that industry specifically. Manga is part of comics. You can offer zero explanation for why it wouldn't be comics other than "because" followed by insults. I keep asking you how it's not comics and you have no cogent answer which doesn't come down to "because." It's nonsense man. Of course manga is comics!
Look more lying! Then an appeal to authority, but which industry? Because we are taking about two different ones, so cough it up
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 28, 2021, 08:54:28 AM
To be fair, the subclasses they dropped were just their weird, fucked-up strangeness made for this book. It's good that those died. They still use the subclasses that are in PHB and other books.
I dunno. I thought that the idea of subclasses that were not limited to being used by only one class was a decent enough idea. (Yes, sometimes I wonder "What if Scout could be used by something other than just Rogues", and "What if archetypes were like the Kits in 2e. Could be skipped entirely, and had both advantages and hindrances, so you're not more powerful by taking them".)
Now I'm thinking it at least isn't the worst thing to come out of this book, like "relationships". I keep hearing the term "hot mess" in regards to this book....
Quote
"As we reflected on our own experience as university students, we looked at not only how much excitement there can be, but what a hot mess college life can be. "
Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/07/dd-strixhaven-book-drops-subclasses-adds-relationships.html
....and thinking it may be more apt than Crawford realizes. (Maybe more like "..but what a Dumpster Fire this book can be"?)
I have a young player at my table really looking forward to this book because they're thinking it'll be Harry Potter-ish and I think this book is NOT that and not worth picking up.
Quote from: oggsmash on September 06, 2021, 10:39:22 PM
People call it woke when Marvel does it because THEY TAKE AN ESTABLISHED CHARACTER AND RETCON THEM FOR THE SAKE OF SOME SJW ARTIST'S EGO. IF a character is panbigenderqueer no one gives a fuck if the character is interesting and every frame does not revolve around who they want to bang. MAKE A NEW CHARACTER just like Manga does, IMO if you are a Marvel or a DC. If the character catches on, so be it. But stop taking other people's work and fucking it up.
"Taking other people's work and fucking it up" is the objective. Why would they stop pursuing their objective?
Quote from: oggsmash on September 06, 2021, 10:39:22 PM
People call it woke when Marvel does it because THEY TAKE AN ESTABLISHED CHARACTER AND RETCON THEM FOR THE SAKE OF SOME SJW ARTIST'S EGO. IF a character is panbigenderqueer no one gives a fuck if the character is interesting and every frame does not revolve around who they want to bang. MAKE A NEW CHARACTER just like Manga does, IMO if you are a Marvel or a DC. If the character catches on, so be it. But stop taking other people's work and fucking it up.
Wait? You mean people didn't always clamour for Steve Rogers to be gay? I'm shocked!
I guess the most frustrating part, is they take the prior work, fuck it up beyond all repair, and then bitch to the high heavens that too many fans are "toxic" and do not buy the trash they are trying to sell. I have no idea how many of those artists are actually SJW types and how many are shopping their "twist" in an attempt to dive into a deeper cesspool (hollyweird); but the simple fact that successful comic book artists working for the "big time" are super eager to jump out and up, tells me something about how much money many of them are NOT making. Talented people not making very much money is not exactly a signal to success to me.
Quote from: Ogre on September 07, 2021, 06:06:30 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 07, 2021, 12:06:41 AM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 08:46:55 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 08:11:44 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 07:53:59 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 04:18:19 PM
I know you're a lying piece of shit but don't stawman me. When did I mention anything about woke shit? You lying ass. And even comic pros don't lump manga in comic sells you disingenuous liar. How can one manga sell more than all comics if manga is comics you lying fuck?
if these things are so very much the same why do you label them with your own words as different you pedantic asshat.
Do you not even understand the point you were replying to, to begin with? People made the point of get woke go broke, just like comics. I said comics is doing great and so is RPG sales. People said comics isn't doing great, etc., until we got to this point. If you're not even arguing that point then what fucking point are you arguing?
Of course comics pros lump manga in with comics, because the people who create manga ARE COMICS PROS. Shit dude most American comics pros highly respect Japanese comics pros. They're all comics pros. Manga IS comics. It's not selling "more than comics" it IS comics, and it's selling more than AMERICAN SUPERHEROES COMICS.
I mean explain to me this, how is it that a British writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you agree it's a comic book but a Japanese writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you think it's not a comic? The only difference is the nationality of the author and artist. It's all comics. Comics is a medium of communication. As long as it meets the criteria for that content medium it doesn't matter the nationality of the creators.
If these things are the same why do you label them differently with your own words you pedantic asshat
Why do I label Manga comics as different from Superhero comics? Because most manga comics are not about superheroes? Manga is in fact mostly written by Japanese people, mostly drawn by Japanese people, and mostly represents a certain comics art style. This does not in any way make it not comics, much like Kirby-esque comics are stil comics despite being mostly Americans with a specific American style. It's still all comics though.
I am starting to wonder if this is a racist thing? Why is it meaningful to you to call it "not comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from Japan, but it is "comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from England? Is it comics if it's written and drawn by someone from France ?
Wow your strawmanning is getting tiring.
You
Are
Wrong
You know you are wrong, but continue to flail about yelling into the wind that different things are the same. Words have meanings and next you are going to say apples are oranges because they are both fruit. But everyone else will continue on with their lives as you eat paste.
I am right, and I worked in this industry specifically and have many current friends working in that industry specifically. Manga is part of comics. You can offer zero explanation for why it wouldn't be comics other than "because" followed by insults. I keep asking you how it's not comics and you have no cogent answer which doesn't come down to "because." It's nonsense man. Of course manga is comics!
Look more lying! Then an appeal to authority, but which industry? Because we are taking about two different ones, so cough it up
How am I lying?
HOW IS MANGA NOT COMICS?
And I am not appealing to authority, because I am not saying I am right purely because I've worked in the industry, I am saying the facts I am giving you are right based on actual experience in the industry - evidence they're not just guesses or instinct. And it's the industry we're talking about, but you get no more personal details of my life, thanks.
Quote from: Mistwell on September 07, 2021, 05:17:54 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 07, 2021, 06:06:30 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 07, 2021, 12:06:41 AM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 08:46:55 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 08:11:44 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 07:53:59 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 04:18:19 PM
I know you're a lying piece of shit but don't stawman me. When did I mention anything about woke shit? You lying ass. And even comic pros don't lump manga in comic sells you disingenuous liar. How can one manga sell more than all comics if manga is comics you lying fuck?
if these things are so very much the same why do you label them with your own words as different you pedantic asshat.
Do you not even understand the point you were replying to, to begin with? People made the point of get woke go broke, just like comics. I said comics is doing great and so is RPG sales. People said comics isn't doing great, etc., until we got to this point. If you're not even arguing that point then what fucking point are you arguing?
Of course comics pros lump manga in with comics, because the people who create manga ARE COMICS PROS. Shit dude most American comics pros highly respect Japanese comics pros. They're all comics pros. Manga IS comics. It's not selling "more than comics" it IS comics, and it's selling more than AMERICAN SUPERHEROES COMICS.
I mean explain to me this, how is it that a British writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you agree it's a comic book but a Japanese writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you think it's not a comic? The only difference is the nationality of the author and artist. It's all comics. Comics is a medium of communication. As long as it meets the criteria for that content medium it doesn't matter the nationality of the creators.
If these things are the same why do you label them differently with your own words you pedantic asshat
Why do I label Manga comics as different from Superhero comics? Because most manga comics are not about superheroes? Manga is in fact mostly written by Japanese people, mostly drawn by Japanese people, and mostly represents a certain comics art style. This does not in any way make it not comics, much like Kirby-esque comics are stil comics despite being mostly Americans with a specific American style. It's still all comics though.
I am starting to wonder if this is a racist thing? Why is it meaningful to you to call it "not comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from Japan, but it is "comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from England? Is it comics if it's written and drawn by someone from France ?
Wow your strawmanning is getting tiring.
You
Are
Wrong
You know you are wrong, but continue to flail about yelling into the wind that different things are the same. Words have meanings and next you are going to say apples are oranges because they are both fruit. But everyone else will continue on with their lives as you eat paste.
I am right, and I worked in this industry specifically and have many current friends working in that industry specifically. Manga is part of comics. You can offer zero explanation for why it wouldn't be comics other than "because" followed by insults. I keep asking you how it's not comics and you have no cogent answer which doesn't come down to "because." It's nonsense man. Of course manga is comics!
Look more lying! Then an appeal to authority, but which industry? Because we are taking about two different ones, so cough it up
How am I lying?
HOW IS MANGA NOT COMICS?
And I am not appealing to authority, because I am not saying I am right purely because I've worked in the industry, I am saying the facts I am giving you are right based on actual experience in the industry - evidence they're not just guesses or instinct. And it's the industry we're talking about, but you get no more personal details of my life, thanks.
How are you telling the truth? Because you're not. And you are appealing to authority because you haven't proved you worked in the comuc industry any more than I have. So your facts are 100% lies
You know what's always a silly argument? Claiming there is only one right way to define a word that's clearly being used in different ways by different people.
Quote from: Pat on September 07, 2021, 06:38:50 PM
You know what's always a silly argument? Claiming there is only one right way to define a word that's clearly being used in different ways by different people.
Greetings!
I agree, Pat. I was trying to say something similar with my earlier post. *sigh*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
All this talk about how great comics are doing reminded me of my favourite one: New Warriors
https://northstarnews.org/29382/reviews-2/marvels-new-warriors-brings-new-controversy/ (https://northstarnews.org/29382/reviews-2/marvels-new-warriors-brings-new-controversy/)
(https://northstarnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Screen-Shot-2020-03-30-at-7.56.55-PM.png)
Quote from: Shasarak on September 08, 2021, 09:43:39 PM
All this talk about how great comics are doing reminded me of my favourite one: New Warriors
https://northstarnews.org/29382/reviews-2/marvels-new-warriors-brings-new-controversy/ (https://northstarnews.org/29382/reviews-2/marvels-new-warriors-brings-new-controversy/)
(https://northstarnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Screen-Shot-2020-03-30-at-7.56.55-PM.png)
Ah, I remember this shitstorm. It was basically 'Muh Duhversity: The Comic!'
There were a couple good ideas, a couple lousy ones, and the Morbius knockoff made no sense at all because as far as I am aware, Morbius destroyed all his research because of how badly he'd fucked himself up.
And the whole Safespace/Snowflake dynamic was, astonishingly enough, even creepier than the Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver dynamic in Ultimates (seriously -- it was kind of disturbing, and proof that there was no goddamn editorial oversight for Ultimates 3).
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 08, 2021, 10:14:15 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 08, 2021, 09:43:39 PM
All this talk about how great comics are doing reminded me of my favourite one: New Warriors
https://northstarnews.org/29382/reviews-2/marvels-new-warriors-brings-new-controversy/ (https://northstarnews.org/29382/reviews-2/marvels-new-warriors-brings-new-controversy/)
(https://northstarnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Screen-Shot-2020-03-30-at-7.56.55-PM.png)
Ah, I remember this shitstorm. It was basically 'Muh Duhversity: The Comic!'
There were a couple good ideas, a couple lousy ones, and the Morbius knockoff made no sense at all because as far as I am aware, Morbius destroyed all his research because of how badly he'd fucked himself up.
And the whole Safespace/Snowflake dynamic was, astonishingly enough, even creepier than the Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver dynamic in Ultimates (seriously -- it was kind of disturbing, and proof that there was no goddamn editorial oversight for Ultimates 3).
Greetings!
Why do they all look like fucking Rainbow Hippos?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My favourite was Fat Dora.
Ah, who am I kidding - they are all great!
Don't forget the kid who got his powers from experimental internet gas!
Yeah, the kid with Internet powers wasn't a bad concept (aside from his origin being pants on head stupid). Oddly, chunky girl with magic backpack made me think of Presto from the D&D cartoon -- but I had a suspicion her pack was less 'barely controlled and understood' and more deus ex machina device.
But yeah. There's a reason it still hasn't released.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 09, 2021, 06:51:52 AM
But yeah. There's a reason it still hasn't released.
And that reason was?
New Warriors CANCELLED by Disney Because it Was 'Too Gay.'
Noooo! Safespace! Fat Dora!
The truly pathetic part about those "new-new warriors" is...it could have worked.
Essentially these are second-rate superheroes. Yet they are expected to get the job done. But how?
Screentime: Gained his abilities after an experiment to make the Internet more accessible- by using a special receiver/transmitter- somehow made his brain into what amounts to a USB wifi plugin. He can access the Internet almost anywhere except where the signal is blocked or in certain isolated areas. He can "download" information and usually apply it: computer repair, auto repair, location, even fighting to an extent (skill but no extra physical ability). However, he can only use one thing at a time and must avoid information overload.
B-Negative. Good pun, actually. Lose the stupid cape and hair. A vampire, but decided to reclaim her soul. Has normal vampire abilities, can endure sunlight but is badly weakened. She was the result of vampiric traits being passed down by birth, so she will never enter a relationship nor have children since they may suffer what she has to deal with. Fears bloodlust overcoming her. Only support from her friends keeps her going, so she is torn and moody.
Snowflake and Safespace. Lose the stupid outfits. They can do what their names imply: Snowflake has cryogenic ability and Safespace can, given just a little time, literally create extra-dimensional refuges.
Trailblazer. Her magic backpack can conjure anything that can fit in it: food, water, medicine, antivenin, rope, tools, parts (e.g. a computer component, a small car part, etc.).
Their normal lives are quite mundane, and since they seem to be very young they must deal with the changes that come with that time. Again, they are not much, yet by careful and intelligent use of their abilities can accomplish quite a bit.
And that's key here. Unlike most superheroes who are just plain able to bulldoze through trouble, these must be more savvy and deal with trouble that none of them can just go right through, and much of the comic deals with them learning this, they in fact failing or only partially succeeding as they learn and get better at it- a collective Hero's Journey.
But no, guess Kibblesmith is too busy threatening with a baseball bat to consider what he could actually do here. And that is a pity to any artist.
I hate this art style where everyone looks modern but is dressed up as "olde timey"? If you remove the costumes and background, these could be people from 2021. It's disturbing. Maybe I'm biased, but much of the old school art made at least some attempt to depict people with a little more imagination and a little more consistency with the setting.
Maybe it's just me but there seems to be less interest in imagination and actual role play and more interest in constumed soap-opera type stuff.
Quote from: Ogre on September 07, 2021, 06:26:59 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 07, 2021, 05:17:54 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 07, 2021, 06:06:30 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 07, 2021, 12:06:41 AM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 08:46:55 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 08:11:44 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 07:53:59 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: Ogre on September 06, 2021, 04:18:19 PM
I know you're a lying piece of shit but don't stawman me. When did I mention anything about woke shit? You lying ass. And even comic pros don't lump manga in comic sells you disingenuous liar. How can one manga sell more than all comics if manga is comics you lying fuck?
if these things are so very much the same why do you label them with your own words as different you pedantic asshat.
Do you not even understand the point you were replying to, to begin with? People made the point of get woke go broke, just like comics. I said comics is doing great and so is RPG sales. People said comics isn't doing great, etc., until we got to this point. If you're not even arguing that point then what fucking point are you arguing?
Of course comics pros lump manga in with comics, because the people who create manga ARE COMICS PROS. Shit dude most American comics pros highly respect Japanese comics pros. They're all comics pros. Manga IS comics. It's not selling "more than comics" it IS comics, and it's selling more than AMERICAN SUPERHEROES COMICS.
I mean explain to me this, how is it that a British writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you agree it's a comic book but a Japanese writer and artist can write a comic book which sells well in the US and you think it's not a comic? The only difference is the nationality of the author and artist. It's all comics. Comics is a medium of communication. As long as it meets the criteria for that content medium it doesn't matter the nationality of the creators.
If these things are the same why do you label them differently with your own words you pedantic asshat
Why do I label Manga comics as different from Superhero comics? Because most manga comics are not about superheroes? Manga is in fact mostly written by Japanese people, mostly drawn by Japanese people, and mostly represents a certain comics art style. This does not in any way make it not comics, much like Kirby-esque comics are stil comics despite being mostly Americans with a specific American style. It's still all comics though.
I am starting to wonder if this is a racist thing? Why is it meaningful to you to call it "not comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from Japan, but it is "comics" if it's written and drawn by someone from England? Is it comics if it's written and drawn by someone from France ?
Wow your strawmanning is getting tiring.
You
Are
Wrong
You know you are wrong, but continue to flail about yelling into the wind that different things are the same. Words have meanings and next you are going to say apples are oranges because they are both fruit. But everyone else will continue on with their lives as you eat paste.
I am right, and I worked in this industry specifically and have many current friends working in that industry specifically. Manga is part of comics. You can offer zero explanation for why it wouldn't be comics other than "because" followed by insults. I keep asking you how it's not comics and you have no cogent answer which doesn't come down to "because." It's nonsense man. Of course manga is comics!
Look more lying! Then an appeal to authority, but which industry? Because we are taking about two different ones, so cough it up
How am I lying?
HOW IS MANGA NOT COMICS?
And I am not appealing to authority, because I am not saying I am right purely because I've worked in the industry, I am saying the facts I am giving you are right based on actual experience in the industry - evidence they're not just guesses or instinct. And it's the industry we're talking about, but you get no more personal details of my life, thanks.
How are you telling the truth? Because you're not. And you are appealing to authority because you haven't proved you worked in the comuc industry any more than I have. So your facts are 100% lies
How is Manga not comics? You won't answer the question because there is no cogent answer other than "they are comics".
Quote from: Pat on September 07, 2021, 06:38:50 PM
You know what's always a silly argument? Claiming there is only one right way to define a word that's clearly being used in different ways by different people.
"It's in a different language with a different style of art" isn't using it differently when, if it were in French with a different style of art, you wouldn't be calling it "not a comic." We're not actually using the word differently, it's just a "because I don't think of manga as comics because it's Japanese" which isn't a fucking argument or different use at all.
Here is what happened to a lot of American comics: they suck.
That's it. That's what happened. People are claiming "they suck because they are woke" but I think it's more accurate to say "they suck AND are woke which also sucks but they'd still suck even if you took the woke out of it." It's not like the stories are good without the woke parts. It's not like the art is good even if you took the woke parts out. The top two American companies are just making a crappy product these days, with or without wokeness in it, and charging way too much for it. Most of their sales are due to name recognition. It's like the 4e D&D version of Marvel and DC going on right now.
Meanwhile Japanese companies are producing good stuff. Good artwork, good writing. It's good if it's woke, and it's good if it's not woke. And they are charging less per page, even when including the cost to translate and re-print it in English. It's like the Pathfinder version of D&D when 4e came out right now.
That, to me, is an honest summary of what's been going on. It's why Japanese comics are selling so well in America - they're just superior product right now, whether or not they are woke.
And that's important to note - a lot of the Japanese comics selling well right now in American are in fact plenty woke. A lot of LGBTQ+ characters and story lines are happening in some of them that sell well. But, I don't think they are selling well because of those topics. The ones without those topics are selling just as well as the ones with those topics. And I don't think the writers that write about those topics are doing it to "get the Millennial and Gen-Z dollars because we're so hip with the young kids these days" like some of the American companies seem to be doing. I think they're just writing about those topics because they like those topics for those characters and it's a natural fit and the writing remains good.
And similar for the success of the Scholastic and other middle-grade books that are selling really very well right now. Some are woke, some are not, all are selling well, and it's because they're just better products than what Marvel and DC are producing. They cost less per page, the art is consistent and good, the writing is consistent and good and actually about things their readers want to read about, whether or not it is woke.
Quote from: Mistwell on September 01, 2021, 05:22:18 PM
And yet, Comics just had their best year ever also (https://www.comicsbeat.com/report-comics-had-their-biggest-year-ever-in-2020-despite-the-pandemic/).
It's because they're counting #Manga sales.
Quote from: Mistwell on September 06, 2021, 02:26:27 PM
And Manga has been trending woke for years by the way.
You mean like 'Goblin Slayer' and 'Redo of a Healer'?
Are you familiar with 'hentai'?
Quote from: Mistwell on September 14, 2021, 03:12:37 PM
How is Manga not comics? You won't answer the question because there is no cogent answer other than "they are comics".
Well if that were true, then why weren't they included in previous assessments?
Let me break down this disingenuous semantic argument by instead differentiating between
Japanese and
American comics. The former is thriving, the latter is dying, and the biggest reason is that #Manga is the product of a single creator's vision while #Comics are designed by committee in an attempt to cater to the widest possible audience (and failing spectacularly). And the only reason one would conflate these numbers is if they were trying to deceive folks about how well the American industry is doing.