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Author Topic: Status of 2020 election fraud  (Read 9924 times)

Ratman_tf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #90 on: September 25, 2022, 01:02:19 AM »
The problem is, what politican is going to champion real election reform? Foxes and hen houses an all that.
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KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #91 on: September 25, 2022, 01:26:17 AM »
The problem is, what politican is going to champion real election reform? Foxes and hen houses an all that.

I mean, in 2016 when intelligence agencies notified folks that in some states the Russians successfully hacked digital voting queues and would have had the capacity to just not let people of their choosing get notified it was their time to vote, the Democrats got scared because with the strategically timed release of Hillary’s emails prior it seemed they were favoring Trump. They pushed hard for countermeasures, then went further to the point of even trying to ban free speech on places like Facebook. Allegedly to counter misinformation and Russian trolls.

In 2020 Republicans lost control and decided it was finally time to fix a system that seemed to have failed them, that they kinda knew had been a problem for decades but hadn’t cared enough about to fix when they were actually in power from time to time, maybe because it would make elections more generally seem less legitimate to the less informed, including their own recent elections. Or perhaps they just didn’t want to pay the political price of having made it marginally harder for folks to vote, because if voters hate anything, it’s marginal inconvenience. Anyway, they decided to fix it through courts that had inadequate proof of fraud given the decades of precedent they had let lie and tried to overturn an election with insufficient evidence to back their claims and make them legally valid, at least from the perspective of the American justice system.

So I kinda gotta agree that both parties only seem to want to change the system when it isn’t working for them, kinda tying back into Bruwulf’s idea that really only the party out of or in some way losing power from fraud tends to want any reform. That, and some attempted change to voting and voter mobilization that is politically motivated can kinda be fraudulent, unconstitutional  or unjust as well, as showcased through my admittedly oversimplified versions of two very complex situational examples. Not that this means we should stop trying as citizens to pursue a proper system.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2022, 02:08:52 AM by KindaMeh »

3catcircus

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #92 on: September 25, 2022, 05:44:00 PM »
I gather you think that massive voter fraud is happening - but it's impossible to catch them or even prove that it's happening.

Given this, do you think that photo ID laws make an important difference? If it's impossible to catch the perpetrators or even prove they exist, will a photo ID law stop them?

You can't stop a burglar from getting into your house just because it's illegal, it being illegal doesn't help to catch the burglar, neither does you putting good locks and an alarm, but it does make it harder to burglar your house and a bit easier to catch the burglar.

I guess you're also against good locks and alarm systems because they don't reduce burglary to zero.

But we have evidence when burglary is happening. If there was a rash of burglaries happening, there would be ample evidence that would be collected in public stories as well as statistics. If I wanted to stop those burglaries, I'd want to look at the data to see how most burglaries were being conducted, and thus what sort of systems would be effective in stopping them.

If someone came up to me and told me there was a rash of burglaries, but they were happening in secret so no one knew who was doing it or even if they were even happening at all, but they had a lock system they were going to sell me -- I'd be fucking suspicious of what they were selling. Especially when they tell me I need to keep buying that lock system, and I'll never know if there were burglars or not.

I'd tell them the same thing I'm saying here -- If there is a rash of burglaries, there should be investigation to collect data on it. How often is it happening? How are they breaking in? Do we know anything about them? Can we set up hidden cameras or a sting operation to catch them?

It seems like I'm being told that it's ridiculous unicorn-chasing to suggest that we should investigate or try to catch the criminals, which doesn't make sense to me. If the criminals are so well-connected that we can't catch a single one or prove that the crime is happening, then why would one think that they are stopped by the lock system? I'd be most suspicious of the person trying to sell me the locks.


Given this, do you think that photo ID laws make an important difference? If it's impossible to catch the perpetrators or even prove they exist, will a photo ID law stop them?

It can only help. If it's done right, it could help a lot. It's not the only change that needs to happen, but it's arguably the most important one. It cuts down avenues for chicanery.

I think the most important change that needs to happen is collecting evidence about where and how fraud is happening.

As I said, photo ID laws only catch a single avenue - someone coming in person and lying about their name in order to vote in the name of another registered voter. As I said, this could easily be proven by voter notification - let all registered voters know when and where they voted, and for them to report it if it doesn't match.

You have evidence that electoral fraud is happening, you yourself have posted it. You just think it's to little to warrant doing something.

Lets say you're correct in the ammount, is that fraud really not enough to do something? Each fraudulent vote cancels a honest one.

Lets say there's not a rash of burglaries, would that stop you from putting the best locks you could afford?

You seem to want to wait until you have evidence that en election WAS stolen to do something. Why not do what every other western nation and many in the third world do to prevent that from happening?

Would you wait to close the barn after the hgorses have bolted?

Would you wait for a child to drown to cover the well?

I would like to think not, so why are you so against something that would:

A) Increase the confidence in the electoral system
B) Decrease the chances of ANY fraud from happening

I think that an increased confidence in the system would increase the number of people that do vote.

Here many didn't because it was an open secret the system was corrupt, when it was fixed many of those started voting, some for the first time.

Lets say YOURS isn't that corrupt, do you honestly think making it so any corruption goes away is a bad thing?

I would argue that the 2020 presidential election was, in fact, stolen.

There were too many individual irregularities that all coincidentally happened at the same time when multiple states suddenly have vote counts that were showing Biden trailing Trump by 10s of thousands of votes at 11pm somehow miraculously swing to show Biden passing Trump the next morning. It's a statistical improbability that that happens in one state. It's statistically impossible for it to have happened in that many states. There is incontrovertible proof that unknown people brought cases of mail ballots in the backs of vans. Likewise of counters breaking out suitcases of ballots. Likewise of counters putting up brown paper on windows to prevent legal poll watchers from having legally-mandated access to view the counts. Likewise state governments hastily changing the law or actually violating laws on the books to facilitate electoral votes for Biden.

One can argue each of these irregularities that occurred based upon the testimony of witnesses and of surveillance footage.  But, the real thing that seals the deal for me is all of the lawsuits that were thrown out without even hearing evidence. They didn't *want* to even present the Dems with the possibility that they were caught committing fraud because then they'd have had to acknowledge the evidence and find a way to defend themselves against the truth, making every future election more difficult to cheat at.  Guilty people don't even want a trial to occur in the first place in the face of the probability that Trump's lawyers would exceed the burden of proof to win at trial.

50 years ago, this same stuff was going on, it was just a lot easier to get away with it. Nowadays, there is *always* some type of trail.  The Dems got lucky that they were able to suppress evidence in this election, aided by a sympathetic media and collusion with the IC and federal law enforcement. They won't be able to get away with it next election cycle without blatantly engaging in illegal interference and harassment of their political enemies the same way they do in China, Russia, and Iran.

Bruwulf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #93 on: September 25, 2022, 05:50:28 PM »
But, the real thing that seals the deal for me is all of the lawsuits that were thrown out without even hearing evidence. They didn't *want* to even present the Dems with the possibility that they were caught committing fraud because then they'd have had to acknowledge the evidence and find a way to defend themselves against the truth, making every future election more difficult to cheat at.  Guilty people don't even want a trial to occur in the first place in the face of the probability that Trump's lawyers would exceed the burden of proof to win at trial.

I remember one of the cases... I don't remember which one, I think it might have been in PA... When it was thrown out, the judge said, more or less, that a lawsuit before the vote would be groundless, because no fraud had occurred, and would be irrelevant after the vote occurred, because it was fait acompli at that point.


3catcircus

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2022, 06:45:49 PM »
But, the real thing that seals the deal for me is all of the lawsuits that were thrown out without even hearing evidence. They didn't *want* to even present the Dems with the possibility that they were caught committing fraud because then they'd have had to acknowledge the evidence and find a way to defend themselves against the truth, making every future election more difficult to cheat at.  Guilty people don't even want a trial to occur in the first place in the face of the probability that Trump's lawyers would exceed the burden of proof to win at trial.

I remember one of the cases... I don't remember which one, I think it might have been in PA... When it was thrown out, the judge said, more or less, that a lawsuit before the vote would be groundless, because no fraud had occurred, and would be irrelevant after the vote occurred, because it was fait acompli at that point.

While I can understand the legality of "you can't sue for something that hasn't happened yet," the fatalistic "might as well just lie back and enjoy it as you're getting raped" attitude towards the fact that fraud *is going to occur* is grounds for throwing that judge off the bench. If you *know* that criminal activity is going to occur, you have a duty to report it and the law has the duty to investigate and prosecute, if it did, in fact, occur.

DocJones

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #95 on: September 25, 2022, 07:46:28 PM »
There were too many individual irregularities that all coincidentally happened at the same time when multiple states suddenly have vote counts that were showing Biden trailing Trump by 10s of thousands of votes at 11pm somehow miraculously swing to show Biden passing Trump the next morning. It's a statistical improbability that that happens in one state. It's statistically impossible for it to have happened in that many states.
The reason is the order ballots were counted in those States.  When the polls close precincts send their counts to the county election board which in turn sends them to the State election board.  Then the mail-in ballots are counted at the County offices.   Democrats won the mail-in vote.   In those States mail in ballots were not legally counted before the polls closed and were counted last in those states.  In Ohio you had Biden winning and Trump overtaking  him, because Ohio allows the mail-in ballots to be counted before the polls close, so the mail-in ballots totals were reported at the close of the polls, which is why Biden was briefly winning.  This is not hard to explain.


3catcircus

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2022, 08:55:08 PM »
There were too many individual irregularities that all coincidentally happened at the same time when multiple states suddenly have vote counts that were showing Biden trailing Trump by 10s of thousands of votes at 11pm somehow miraculously swing to show Biden passing Trump the next morning. It's a statistical improbability that that happens in one state. It's statistically impossible for it to have happened in that many states.
The reason is the order ballots were counted in those States.  When the polls close precincts send their counts to the county election board which in turn sends them to the State election board.  Then the mail-in ballots are counted at the County offices.   Democrats won the mail-in vote.   In those States mail in ballots were not legally counted before the polls closed and were counted last in those states.  In Ohio you had Biden winning and Trump overtaking  him, because Ohio allows the mail-in ballots to be counted before the polls close, so the mail-in ballots totals were reported at the close of the polls, which is why Biden was briefly winning.  This is not hard to explain.

You're totally missing the point (or being willfully ignorant). Mail in ballots aren't typically counted *for days* and only when the spread between the candidates is less than the number of *individualized* mail ballots - where you count them *if* they can decide the election.

Until the 2020 election. Wholesale mail ballots dropped in unsecured drop boxes and brought in *in suitcases* and counted *in the dead of night* is a problem. Even the *appearance* of impropriety is a problem. Zero chain of custody means that it was extremely easy to do things like "here, count *these* 10,000 ballots I brought in this duffel bag like a drug dealer, but *those* 10,000 ballots that came by USPS are going to missing and nobody knows nothing."

Elections need to be 100% aboveboard. When there are claims of impropriety and your first response is to obstruct any investigation by any means necessary, I call into question your integrity.

The election commissions *should* have welcomed forensic analysis of each and every ballot if they had confidence in the results.  Why didn't they?

Bruwulf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #97 on: September 25, 2022, 09:27:52 PM »
Until the 2020 election. Wholesale mail ballots dropped in unsecured drop boxes and brought in *in suitcases* and counted *in the dead of night* is a problem. Even the *appearance* of impropriety is a problem. Zero chain of custody means that it was extremely easy to do things like "here, count *these* 10,000 ballots I brought in this duffel bag like a drug dealer, but *those* 10,000 ballots that came by USPS are going to missing and nobody knows nothing."

Elections need to be 100% aboveboard. When there are claims of impropriety and your first response is to obstruct any investigation by any means necessary, I call into question your integrity.

The election commissions *should* have welcomed forensic analysis of each and every ballot if they had confidence in the results.  Why didn't they?

Right. This is what some people don't get. It (kind of) doesn't even matter if there actually was fraud. It looks like there was, and a significant chunk of the voter base thinks there was, and nothing is being done to address that. It's "nothing to see here, move along" in all but the words.

People lose faith in the system that way. The system has to have people's trust.

KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #98 on: September 25, 2022, 09:51:06 PM »
I would agree something needs to be done, probably the voter ID stuff that has been mentioned among other things. Not least to restore faith within the system. I do think the explanation of how the votes shifted was pretty good. As for mail in ballots specifically being unsafe, may want to take a look at this: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/mail-ballot-security-features-primer

I disagree with their conclusions, but in some ways I feel like California and other states’ voting more generally is less safe than that, given some of the problems listed earlier. So in a way I feel like it was just an awakening of the public consciousness, rather than a real change in voting security.

3catcircus

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #99 on: September 25, 2022, 11:02:13 PM »
I would agree something needs to be done, probably the voter ID stuff that has been mentioned among other things. Not least to restore faith within the system. I do think the explanation of how the votes shifted was pretty good. As for mail in ballots specifically being unsafe, may want to take a look at this: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/mail-ballot-security-features-primer

I disagree with their conclusions, but in some ways I feel like California and other states’ voting more generally is less safe than that, given some of the problems listed earlier. So in a way I feel like it was just an awakening of the public consciousness, rather than a real change in voting security.

That Brennan center report on the face of it seems reasonable regarding mail ballots - in prior years when it was not widespread like it was in 2020 because of the coof. But, I'll just quote Frenchy from Goodfellas to illustrate how it was typically treated in 2020. "It's totally, totally untraceable... Security? You're looking at it. It's a joke. I'm the midnight-to-eight man."

The people who are counting the ballots can't be trusted. The people who are managing the polling places can't be trusted.  When you don't trust the people operating the system, you can't trust the system.  When institutions that generations of Americans grew up believing were unimpeachable turn out to be infested with political hacks looking to line their own pockets or perform favors for crooks in exchange for their own benefit, those institutions no longer can be trusted.

Tallifer

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #100 on: September 26, 2022, 09:32:25 AM »
I would neither trust a BLM/dragqueen/paedo nor a MAGA/NRA/Klansman.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #101 on: September 26, 2022, 12:09:01 PM »
I would agree something needs to be done, probably the voter ID stuff that has been mentioned among other things. Not least to restore faith within the system. I do think the explanation of how the votes shifted was pretty good. As for mail in ballots specifically being unsafe, may want to take a look at this: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/mail-ballot-security-features-primer

I disagree with their conclusions, but in some ways I feel like California and other states’ voting more generally is less safe than that, given some of the problems listed earlier. So in a way I feel like it was just an awakening of the public consciousness, rather than a real change in voting security.

That Brennan center report on the face of it seems reasonable regarding mail ballots - in prior years when it was not widespread like it was in 2020 because of the coof. But, I'll just quote Frenchy from Goodfellas to illustrate how it was typically treated in 2020. "It's totally, totally untraceable... Security? You're looking at it. It's a joke. I'm the midnight-to-eight man."

The people who are counting the ballots can't be trusted. The people who are managing the polling places can't be trusted.  When you don't trust the people operating the system, you can't trust the system.  When institutions that generations of Americans grew up believing were unimpeachable turn out to be infested with political hacks looking to line their own pockets or perform favors for crooks in exchange for their own benefit, those institutions no longer can be trusted.

I find it weird your polling places don't have representatives of all political parties in the ballot, that they don't count AND publish the count of the ballots, that they send the ballots to be counted elsewhere, that a candidate can't ask for an audit.

In México the polling places DO have representatives of the parties (unless they choose not to send any), the ballots ARE counted there under the supervision of the representatives and the results are posted outside the polling place, the counting acts HAVE TO have the signatures of the representatives. ballots are then SEALED and sent with the count somewhere else, but they aren't counted AGAIN, unless there's discrepancies or a complaint from one of the parties. And there's chain of custody that has to be mantained.

One more thing, just around my home there's usually 3 polling places in walking distance, and we need to know which one we have to vote in, you usually find a very short line of about 10-20 people tops. Enough ballots are sent to each polling station for the number of people that can vote there with some to spare for people that get to vote there for some reason (not for the whole thicket and only in some cases) without being asigned to it.

Our electoral lists ARE purged constantly, we HAVE a "free" voting ID with photo, address, fingerprint, places to punch that you voted that time and Q Code.

When you vote you HAVE TO show your ID, they compare it to the lists (they have your name and a photo of your ID on it), punch it, ink your thumb. You CAN'T vote twice because of that, dead people AREN'T in the lists, you HAVE TO be: a citizen, live in electoral district, AND fulfill your DUTY to have your documents in order to get to vote.

You guys have a Third World Banana Republic Shithole electoral system. And I find it weird that ANY citizen would be against reforming it, and that they would vote for a party that's against reforming it regardless of if they won or not.

Edited to add:

The people maning the polling places? They are ordinary citizens who get "ellected" by chance from the same electoral lists of the district, and they are different every time.

To corrupt them you need to corrupt LOTS of people in a lot of places AND you also need to buy the representatives of the political parties.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 12:12:10 PM by GeekyBugle »
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #102 on: September 26, 2022, 12:51:35 PM »
I would agree something needs to be done, probably the voter ID stuff that has been mentioned among other things. Not least to restore faith within the system. I do think the explanation of how the votes shifted was pretty good. As for mail in ballots specifically being unsafe, may want to take a look at this: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/mail-ballot-security-features-primer

I disagree with their conclusions, but in some ways I feel like California and other states’ voting more generally is less safe than that, given some of the problems listed earlier. So in a way I feel like it was just an awakening of the public consciousness, rather than a real change in voting security.

That Brennan center report on the face of it seems reasonable regarding mail ballots - in prior years when it was not widespread like it was in 2020 because of the coof. But, I'll just quote Frenchy from Goodfellas to illustrate how it was typically treated in 2020. "It's totally, totally untraceable... Security? You're looking at it. It's a joke. I'm the midnight-to-eight man."

The people who are counting the ballots can't be trusted. The people who are managing the polling places can't be trusted.  When you don't trust the people operating the system, you can't trust the system.  When institutions that generations of Americans grew up believing were unimpeachable turn out to be infested with political hacks looking to line their own pockets or perform favors for crooks in exchange for their own benefit, those institutions no longer can be trusted.

I find it weird your polling places don't have representatives of all political parties in the ballot, that they don't count AND publish the count of the ballots, that they send the ballots to be counted elsewhere, that a candidate can't ask for an audit.

In México the polling places DO have representatives of the parties (unless they choose not to send any), the ballots ARE counted there under the supervision of the representatives and the results are posted outside the polling place, the counting acts HAVE TO have the signatures of the representatives. ballots are then SEALED and sent with the count somewhere else, but they aren't counted AGAIN, unless there's discrepancies or a complaint from one of the parties. And there's chain of custody that has to be mantained.

One more thing, just around my home there's usually 3 polling places in walking distance, and we need to know which one we have to vote in, you usually find a very short line of about 10-20 people tops. Enough ballots are sent to each polling station for the number of people that can vote there with some to spare for people that get to vote there for some reason (not for the whole thicket and only in some cases) without being asigned to it.

Our electoral lists ARE purged constantly, we HAVE a "free" voting ID with photo, address, fingerprint, places to punch that you voted that time and Q Code.

When you vote you HAVE TO show your ID, they compare it to the lists (they have your name and a photo of your ID on it), punch it, ink your thumb. You CAN'T vote twice because of that, dead people AREN'T in the lists, you HAVE TO be: a citizen, live in electoral district, AND fulfill your DUTY to have your documents in order to get to vote.

You guys have a Third World Banana Republic Shithole electoral system. And I find it weird that ANY citizen would be against reforming it, and that they would vote for a party that's against reforming it regardless of if they won or not.

Edited to add:

The people maning the polling places? They are ordinary citizens who get "ellected" by chance from the same electoral lists of the district, and they are different every time.

To corrupt them you need to corrupt LOTS of people in a lot of places AND you also need to buy the representatives of the political parties.

In all fairness, we do have poll watchers and challengers in most places. Likewise, there are a lot of independent election and voting security organizations that do their best to hold the system accountable. They also do make an effort to keep proper registrations and purge the lists, and oftentimes attempts to impersonate dead voters are indeed caught. We do have general chain of custody even for mail-in votes. And some states are equally or even perhaps a bit more legit relative to Mexico, because they modify the base requirements for things like ID and also other unmentioned things. The problem is we have inadequate base national standards, and the states do whatever.

You’re not wrong to call us out. That being said I think we are now working on it. Our system was never great, but at least now people are starting to realize that, though I do think many fail to realize that it’s our system as legally set up that’s to blame.

There’s no verifiable fraud that’s been found despite searching that would overturn the election because 2020 wasn’t super unique and our system detects fraud less well than it could in general. We’ve long had a system where voter fraud might not be detectable by those operating the system. I don’t blame them or the volunteers nearly so much as I blame the laws and the public that allowed the system to become what it legally is. We are just now starting to realize that our voting laws and system make verification and actually proving fraud a problem, and I think it’s been going on since long before 2020. We only pay attention to that year because somebody influential finally bothered to challenge the results, on account of being upset with them.

But yeah, Mexico does indeed seem to have a better system in this arena. And I do appreciate some of the hope you give us with respect to the idea that it can be done better.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 01:04:03 PM by KindaMeh »

KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2022, 02:14:57 PM »
That said, I also love my country and don’t like shitting on it, so here’s some positive pseudo-propaganda that emphasizes what America DOES do to stop election fraud, and some counter arguments to what I and others have posted about our nation’s system being and having long been literal garbage...

On Attempted Repeat Voting: https://www.ncsl.org/blog/2020/09/04/double-trouble-how-states-keep-people-from-voting-twice.aspx

Some Alternative Perspectives And Responses To Some Of What I And Others Have Said Or Folks Are Saying Elsewhere, Albeit Not Comprehensive And Sometimes A Bit Of A Strawman: https://www.cisa.gov/rumorcontrol

To be fair, a lot of what I and others have said is not addressed by these/my 5 seconds of copy pasting these 2 links, which is because we are right and the system needs to be changed. But yeah, we could be worse, and some people overestimate how bad we have it.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 02:30:06 PM by KindaMeh »

3catcircus

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #104 on: September 26, 2022, 03:18:21 PM »
That said, I also love my country and don’t like shitting on it, so here’s some positive pseudo-propaganda that emphasizes what America DOES do to stop election fraud, and some counter arguments to what I and others have posted about our nation’s system being and having long been literal garbage...

On Attempted Repeat Voting: https://www.ncsl.org/blog/2020/09/04/double-trouble-how-states-keep-people-from-voting-twice.aspx

Some Alternative Perspectives And Responses To Some Of What I And Others Have Said Or Folks Are Saying Elsewhere, Albeit Not Comprehensive And Sometimes A Bit Of A Strawman: https://www.cisa.gov/rumorcontrol

To be fair, a lot of what I and others have said is not addressed by these/my 5 seconds of copy pasting these 2 links, which is because we are right and the system needs to be changed. But yeah, we could be worse, and some people overestimate how bad we have it.

Ignoring that it is the Heritage Foundation, their database is pretty good at detailing all of the cases of fraud, but it is limited to when they started keeping track.

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud

Post attention to how many cases involved fraudulent use of absentee ballots. It's the single largest category across every state that counts it separately than ballot petition fraud.

It's an interesting study because it's proof that everything we have claimed happened that is fraud did happen.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 03:26:00 PM by 3catcircus »