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Author Topic: Status of 2020 election fraud  (Read 5929 times)

jhkim

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2022, 01:37:28 PM »
And those aren't the only changes I support. But it doesn't matter. When "my side" proposes it, it literally doesn't matter what we propose, it's "racist" or some other -ist. It's racist when we purge invalid, illegal, fraudulent, and expired registrations from the voter registry, too, for example, and yet that's a bare minimum requirement for a trustworthy election system.

It's funny to say that, when I'm the one being called racist in this thread. (Ghostmaker called me "confirmed as racist".)

It seems to me that it doesn't matter what I propose, I'm being called racist and supporting fraud.

My biggest problem with our system is the legal manipulation of voting - like gerrymandering, hours-long lines in poorer districts, and voting day being on a work day. That's why I oppose changes that add additional burden on select groups of voters.

I'm especially in favor of changes that study and prove existing voter fraud in order to come up with solutions, rather than blindly applying changes that also make it more difficult for certain voters. Apropos the topic, if people believe that massive voter fraud is happening in the U.S. - I'd think that people would be pushing for lawmakers and laws that would prove fraud and punish those responsible.

KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2022, 04:24:24 PM »
And those aren't the only changes I support. But it doesn't matter. When "my side" proposes it, it literally doesn't matter what we propose, it's "racist" or some other -ist. It's racist when we purge invalid, illegal, fraudulent, and expired registrations from the voter registry, too, for example, and yet that's a bare minimum requirement for a trustworthy election system.

It's funny to say that, when I'm the one being called racist in this thread. (Ghostmaker called me "confirmed as racist".)

It seems to me that it doesn't matter what I propose, I'm being called racist and supporting fraud.

My biggest problem with our system is the legal manipulation of voting - like gerrymandering, hours-long lines in poorer districts, and voting day being on a work day. That's why I oppose changes that add additional burden on select groups of voters.

I'm especially in favor of changes that study and prove existing voter fraud in order to come up with solutions, rather than blindly applying changes that also make it more difficult for certain voters. Apropos the topic, if people believe that massive voter fraud is happening in the U.S. - I'd think that people would be pushing for lawmakers and laws that would prove fraud and punish those responsible.

I would not consider you racist in the sense of consciously thinking one race is inferior to another or biologically predisposed to failure due to innate physiological “flaws”. Which for me is the only type of racist that’s a solvable issue in a world where everyone has their own subconscious biases and predilections. (Ex: Some people negatively stereotype straight white males subconsciously too, including indoctrinated straight white males. And sensitivity training doesn’t really seem to work even for removing the biases it targets, which are themselves at times questionable.)

I do think we get a whole lot less of such accusations in absolute terms here than you might on sites sponsored by the left on average. Not least because their definitions of transgression tend to be far less measured and reasonable than my own, with a very real “with us on whatever we say, blindly, or against us” mentality.

Likewise, I think mudslinging is a questionable use of all our time. By and large I think people, even on the internet more broadly (places like rpg.net excepted), but especially on a site like this one, tend to mean well. Even if they are sometimes blinded to the words, positions, and reasonings of others by their own stances and preconceptions. I think you mean well and are an upstanding person with a cool rpg site, even if I don’t agree with you on a lot of things.

I do agree that gerrymandering can be a problem and neutral commissions that equalize the value of a person’s vote might be preferable. I think a national voting holiday would be great and patriotic, even if unnecessary given things like early voting, absentee ballots, genuine estimates of whether it is nonviable to vote or simply a bit less easy (and let us be honest, nothing is ever equally easy for everyone), and my earlier thoughts on the rational follow-ups on disparate impact. I am against voter intimidation of legitimate voters, especially on the basis of race and where it is politically supported.

However, I do acknowledge that some of the positions you seem to support with respect to voting are indeed touched upon in my questioning of the true validity of disparate impact. Likewise, in instances where others have seemingly reasonably implied the real burden of acquiring an ID in practical terms seems quite low, in exchange for basic electoral security, you seem opposed on similar bases. In this sense, while I do not doubt that you disapprove of fraud itself, you are admittedly protecting it from prosecution along certain viable policy lines. Seemingly because you perhaps buy into both some things related to disparate impact and because you either don’t see or find valid the points others have been making with respect to actual voter impacts and the exploited insecurities of our system, or perhaps you do not want to believe.

(To be fair, prior to reading through this thread I was a lot more skeptical of the possibility of real and actionable fraud as well. I still don’t think there is sufficient legal proof to overturn the election and have that be justified, or to lock up Biden on something election related. [Especially since with the fake elector stuff and classified document bs we perhaps shouldn’t cast stones from glass houses.] But I do now believe that our system is flawed and should be changed on that basis as well as the basis of public faith in elections being so low. For that to happen, as noted by others, we may have to pay a bit at times in ease.)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 04:53:44 PM by KindaMeh »

3catcircus

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2022, 05:21:02 PM »
And those aren't the only changes I support. But it doesn't matter. When "my side" proposes it, it literally doesn't matter what we propose, it's "racist" or some other -ist. It's racist when we purge invalid, illegal, fraudulent, and expired registrations from the voter registry, too, for example, and yet that's a bare minimum requirement for a trustworthy election system.

It's funny to say that, when I'm the one being called racist in this thread. (Ghostmaker called me "confirmed as racist".)

It seems to me that it doesn't matter what I propose, I'm being called racist and supporting fraud.

My biggest problem with our system is the legal manipulation of voting - like gerrymandering, hours-long lines in poorer districts, and voting day being on a work day. That's why I oppose changes that add additional burden on select groups of voters.

I'm especially in favor of changes that study and prove existing voter fraud in order to come up with solutions, rather than blindly applying changes that also make it more difficult for certain voters. Apropos the topic, if people believe that massive voter fraud is happening in the U.S. - I'd think that people would be pushing for lawmakers and laws that would prove fraud and punish those responsible.

Gerrymandering: both parties do it. It needs to stop. Voting districts should be drawn along county borders (i.e. District 1 is these 3 counties, District 2 is those 4 counties, etc.) Full stop.

Voting lines has fuck-all to do with racism. It is entirely based upon the competence of the polling place workers and, by extension, the leadership and competence of the election boards. Long lines at polling places correlates 1:1 with how the city the polling place resides in is run. Its no wonder that poorly run polling places occur in Dem-run shitholes. 

I would prefer that voting day be a national holiday and that all citizens legally allowed to vote be *required* to vote or pay a fine. This serves several purposes:

1. Renewed sense of civic duty.
2. Ability to year-over-year determine if someone is sick, moved, or dead. This will allow an easier time of cleaning the voter rolls.
3. If someone is removed from the rolls because they're now worm food, someone trying to cast a ballot using their identity the following year can be instantly flagged for further scrutiny.

Let's be clear. "Making it difficult to vote" is generally only difficult for those for whom navigating society itself is too much effort.  If you can't afford $12 for an ID because you're a homeless drug addict with mental health issues, you have no business voting. And those "advocacy" groups who are trying to help them by registering them to vote aren't doing it out of a sense of charity - we all know they're being paid by Dem operatives to pad the vote count. $20 to buy some crack or a bottle of Thunderbird in exchange for voting straight ticket Dem isn't social assistance. It's exploitation and the poor people suffering end up right back in the Dem plantation, shitting between two parked cars before panhandling for their next fix.  But hey, the Dems also demanded that we shut down all of the mental institutions that could've been caring for these people.

It's not long lines. It's not making people prove that they are who they say they are and that they're legally entitled to vote. It's not properly counting ballots. All of those things can be managed when Dems stop being check valves on common sense and the law. It's the ill intent of the Democratic party who don't give a fuck about voter disenfranchisement - all they care about is how they can cheat without getting caught.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 05:28:24 PM by 3catcircus »

GeekyBugle

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2022, 07:23:09 PM »
It was part of solving voter fraud in México, WHY are you against it to the point of not even considering workarounds fo0r what you perceive as it's drawbacks?

I don't understand. I've already said that I'm in favor of the Mexican system. If there were a law where everyone was offered a free ID with photo and thumbprint that they had to go to a local office to get in order to vote, I would support that system.

I've also discussed other easy workarounds, like voter notification. If voters were always notified of when and where they voted (by mail and optional text message), then someone else impersonating them when voting in-person would be very obvious - because the actual registered voter would report it.

Are you aware that our system does requiere you to present your birth certificate, and proof of residence in the form of an address in certain services bills? That you do have to pay to get a copy of your birth certificate? Of course in some places this can be done in machines placed in malls and other places but it does cost you money. You still have to go get that and then go get your voter ID (which is "free").

As for how would you notifiy a voter he/she voted? Doesn't that mean the government knows instantly WHO has voted? Unless you mean days latter.
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Bruwulf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2022, 07:29:31 PM »
Apropos the topic, if people believe that massive voter fraud is happening in the U.S. - I'd think that people would be pushing for lawmakers and laws that would prove fraud and punish those responsible.

Sure.

I'd also like a unicorn, while we're at it.

ThatChrisGuy

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2022, 11:46:53 PM »
Gerrymandering: both parties do it. It needs to stop. Voting districts should be drawn along county borders (i.e. District 1 is these 3 counties, District 2 is those 4 counties, etc.) Full stop.

Good fucking luck.  Elbridge Gerry died in 1814.
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jhkim

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #81 on: September 24, 2022, 12:58:09 PM »
Apropos the topic, if people believe that massive voter fraud is happening in the U.S. - I'd think that people would be pushing for lawmakers and laws that would prove fraud and punish those responsible.

Sure.

I'd also like a unicorn, while we're at it.

I gather you think that massive voter fraud is happening - but it's impossible to catch them or even prove that it's happening.

Given this, do you think that photo ID laws make an important difference? If it's impossible to catch the perpetrators or even prove they exist, will a photo ID law stop them?

KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #82 on: September 24, 2022, 02:21:59 PM »
Apropos the topic, if people believe that massive voter fraud is happening in the U.S. - I'd think that people would be pushing for lawmakers and laws that would prove fraud and punish those responsible.

Sure.

I'd also like a unicorn, while we're at it.

I gather you think that massive voter fraud is happening - but it's impossible to catch them or even prove that it's happening.

Given this, do you think that photo ID laws make an important difference? If it's impossible to catch the perpetrators or even prove they exist, will a photo ID law stop them?

Well, I can’t speak for Bruwulf, but personally it seems like a big part of why one cannot easily prove the exact numbers on voter fraud as opposed to simply the systemic vulnerabilities that have been referenced is that ID or other solid proof of identity is not required nor who votes where (to avoid repeat voting) reported across state lines and cetera in many states, among other things. A voter ID would presumably help ensure those voting are both eligible and who they say they are and would be proof against repeat votes because with communication one would know if the same ID voted twice. It would also help answer the question of whether or not fraud is occurring statistically going forward and aid faith in the system, preventing the need and suppressing the desire to question the validity of results.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 03:02:18 PM by KindaMeh »

KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2022, 03:09:29 PM »
Also, solid proof of ID is already required nationally for anybody who’s a first time voter currently in the process of registering to vote through mail registration, under 2002’s HAVA. So if we do it there and it seems to work out fine, I feel like it would also be workable elsewhere.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2022, 03:30:08 PM »
Apropos the topic, if people believe that massive voter fraud is happening in the U.S. - I'd think that people would be pushing for lawmakers and laws that would prove fraud and punish those responsible.

Sure.

I'd also like a unicorn, while we're at it.

I gather you think that massive voter fraud is happening - but it's impossible to catch them or even prove that it's happening.

Given this, do you think that photo ID laws make an important difference? If it's impossible to catch the perpetrators or even prove they exist, will a photo ID law stop them?

If you can't vote without a voter ID, if said ID has:

Your photo, fingerprint, address, age, sex, and a unique voter number, all of which is replicated in the voter lists WITH a photo of your ID, then:

Purging lists of replicates, dead people, etc gets easier and voter fraud harder.

You can't stop a burglar from getting into your house just because it's illegal, it being illegal doesn't help to catch the burglar, neither does you putting good locks and an alarm, but it does make it harder to burglar your house and a bit easier to catch the burglar.

I guess you're also against good locks and alarm systems because they don't reduce burglary to zero.

You either don't think through your arguments or you're a disingenuous twat.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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Bruwulf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2022, 06:11:20 PM »
I gather you think that massive voter fraud is happening - but it's impossible to catch them or even prove that it's happening.

I think statistically significant amounts of fraud is happening. Massive is a subjective term. I think it's enough to be concerned about.

I think it's effectively impossible to catch because there exists political will sufficient to prevent it.

Given this, do you think that photo ID laws make an important difference? If it's impossible to catch the perpetrators or even prove they exist, will a photo ID law stop them?

It can only help. If it's done right, it could help a lot. It's not the only change that needs to happen, but it's arguably the most important one. It cuts down avenues for chicanery.

jhkim

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2022, 09:48:20 PM »
I gather you think that massive voter fraud is happening - but it's impossible to catch them or even prove that it's happening.

Given this, do you think that photo ID laws make an important difference? If it's impossible to catch the perpetrators or even prove they exist, will a photo ID law stop them?

You can't stop a burglar from getting into your house just because it's illegal, it being illegal doesn't help to catch the burglar, neither does you putting good locks and an alarm, but it does make it harder to burglar your house and a bit easier to catch the burglar.

I guess you're also against good locks and alarm systems because they don't reduce burglary to zero.

But we have evidence when burglary is happening. If there was a rash of burglaries happening, there would be ample evidence that would be collected in public stories as well as statistics. If I wanted to stop those burglaries, I'd want to look at the data to see how most burglaries were being conducted, and thus what sort of systems would be effective in stopping them.

If someone came up to me and told me there was a rash of burglaries, but they were happening in secret so no one knew who was doing it or even if they were even happening at all, but they had a lock system they were going to sell me -- I'd be fucking suspicious of what they were selling. Especially when they tell me I need to keep buying that lock system, and I'll never know if there were burglars or not.

I'd tell them the same thing I'm saying here -- If there is a rash of burglaries, there should be investigation to collect data on it. How often is it happening? How are they breaking in? Do we know anything about them? Can we set up hidden cameras or a sting operation to catch them?

It seems like I'm being told that it's ridiculous unicorn-chasing to suggest that we should investigate or try to catch the criminals, which doesn't make sense to me. If the criminals are so well-connected that we can't catch a single one or prove that the crime is happening, then why would one think that they are stopped by the lock system? I'd be most suspicious of the person trying to sell me the locks.


Given this, do you think that photo ID laws make an important difference? If it's impossible to catch the perpetrators or even prove they exist, will a photo ID law stop them?

It can only help. If it's done right, it could help a lot. It's not the only change that needs to happen, but it's arguably the most important one. It cuts down avenues for chicanery.

I think the most important change that needs to happen is collecting evidence about where and how fraud is happening.

As I said, photo ID laws only catch a single avenue - someone coming in person and lying about their name in order to vote in the name of another registered voter. As I said, this could easily be proven by voter notification - let all registered voters know when and where they voted, and for them to report it if it doesn't match.

Bruwulf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2022, 10:21:49 PM »
It seems like I'm being told that it's ridiculous unicorn-chasing to suggest that we should investigate or try to catch the criminals, which doesn't make sense to me. If the criminals are so well-connected that we can't catch a single one or prove that the crime is happening, then why would one think that they are stopped by the lock system? I'd be most suspicious of the person trying to sell me the locks.

Here's the problem: At any given moment, only half of our two party system agrees there is fraud. The other half claims we have the most secure elections in the world.

Well, no. I tell a lie. It's not "the" problem, it's one problem among many. It's sometimes hard to tell where one problem ends and another begins, it's a real mess of snakes. You have lack of proper records, you have judges blocking attempts to investigate, all sorts of problems.

Impossible? No, but it's a herculean effort... And I'm not convinced it's going to happen.


I think the most important change that needs to happen is collecting evidence about where and how fraud is happening.

As I said, photo ID laws only catch a single avenue - someone coming in person and lying about their name in order to vote in the name of another registered voter. As I said, this could easily be proven by voter notification - let all registered voters know when and where they voted, and for them to report it if it doesn't match.

And if we stop giving out absentee ballots like candy, that should be enough to make a significant difference.

KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2022, 11:00:44 PM »

I think the most important change that needs to happen is collecting evidence about where and how fraud is happening.

As I said, photo ID laws only catch a single avenue - someone coming in person and lying about their name in order to vote in the name of another registered voter. As I said, this could easily be proven by voter notification - let all registered voters know when and where they voted, and for them to report it if it doesn't match.

I fear that while what we can currently investigate shows limited fraud, which indeed means that elections could not and indeed legally should not be overturned, that may as noted earlier be in part due to a lack of ID laws more generally in some states. Ex: California you can show up to vote with no proof of identity at all and vote. It’s even left to election officer discretion whether or not someone who is registering for the first time has to show any form of ID. (The only time they may be asked to.) And they definitely don’t(and can’t) get asked if they know someone’s ID or driver’s license number or last four SSN numbers and want to register by mail. (To be fair though, the latter is less of a problem.) So kinda questionable how well fraud would even be detected there, for instance, and it’s by no means alone.

So, validating voting photo IDs prevent fabrication, as well as going to vote on accident or on purpose with an ID or residence but no legal voting capacity, and potentially also repeat voting, in addition to impersonation voting.

Notification prevents impersonation too, admittedly, provided the person impersonated is living and of sound mind, etcetera, as well as motivated enough and able to check their vote. So not at all useless, but arguably not enough, since of the previous listed issues that’s the only one it prevents, I think. I’d be for notification, but I don’t think it’s really enough, and would still require that every voter be contactable for sure with verified mailing and/or digital address or the like.

Again, I get that you don’t want fraud, but I think you may also be arguing against necessary steps to securing our current system, and repairing what may well be serious systemic flaws. Themselves preventing us from even evaluating our system properly, which I also agree we should strive for and be able to do.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 11:02:46 PM by KindaMeh »

GeekyBugle

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2022, 12:04:23 AM »
I gather you think that massive voter fraud is happening - but it's impossible to catch them or even prove that it's happening.

Given this, do you think that photo ID laws make an important difference? If it's impossible to catch the perpetrators or even prove they exist, will a photo ID law stop them?

You can't stop a burglar from getting into your house just because it's illegal, it being illegal doesn't help to catch the burglar, neither does you putting good locks and an alarm, but it does make it harder to burglar your house and a bit easier to catch the burglar.

I guess you're also against good locks and alarm systems because they don't reduce burglary to zero.

But we have evidence when burglary is happening. If there was a rash of burglaries happening, there would be ample evidence that would be collected in public stories as well as statistics. If I wanted to stop those burglaries, I'd want to look at the data to see how most burglaries were being conducted, and thus what sort of systems would be effective in stopping them.

If someone came up to me and told me there was a rash of burglaries, but they were happening in secret so no one knew who was doing it or even if they were even happening at all, but they had a lock system they were going to sell me -- I'd be fucking suspicious of what they were selling. Especially when they tell me I need to keep buying that lock system, and I'll never know if there were burglars or not.

I'd tell them the same thing I'm saying here -- If there is a rash of burglaries, there should be investigation to collect data on it. How often is it happening? How are they breaking in? Do we know anything about them? Can we set up hidden cameras or a sting operation to catch them?

It seems like I'm being told that it's ridiculous unicorn-chasing to suggest that we should investigate or try to catch the criminals, which doesn't make sense to me. If the criminals are so well-connected that we can't catch a single one or prove that the crime is happening, then why would one think that they are stopped by the lock system? I'd be most suspicious of the person trying to sell me the locks.


Given this, do you think that photo ID laws make an important difference? If it's impossible to catch the perpetrators or even prove they exist, will a photo ID law stop them?

It can only help. If it's done right, it could help a lot. It's not the only change that needs to happen, but it's arguably the most important one. It cuts down avenues for chicanery.

I think the most important change that needs to happen is collecting evidence about where and how fraud is happening.

As I said, photo ID laws only catch a single avenue - someone coming in person and lying about their name in order to vote in the name of another registered voter. As I said, this could easily be proven by voter notification - let all registered voters know when and where they voted, and for them to report it if it doesn't match.

You have evidence that electoral fraud is happening, you yourself have posted it. You just think it's to little to warrant doing something.

Lets say you're correct in the ammount, is that fraud really not enough to do something? Each fraudulent vote cancels a honest one.

Lets say there's not a rash of burglaries, would that stop you from putting the best locks you could afford?

You seem to want to wait until you have evidence that en election WAS stolen to do something. Why not do what every other western nation and many in the third world do to prevent that from happening?

Would you wait to close the barn after the hgorses have bolted?

Would you wait for a child to drown to cover the well?

I would like to think not, so why are you so against something that would:

A) Increase the confidence in the electoral system
B) Decrease the chances of ANY fraud from happening

I think that an increased confidence in the system would increase the number of people that do vote.

Here many didn't because it was an open secret the system was corrupt, when it was fixed many of those started voting, some for the first time.

Lets say YOURS isn't that corrupt, do you honestly think making it so any corruption goes away is a bad thing?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell