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Author Topic: Status of 2020 election fraud  (Read 4125 times)

Mistwell

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2022, 09:35:52 PM »
I have seen nothing to suggest that in-person fraud (i.e. someone comes in and lies about their identity to vote) is at all significant. One easy way to at least identify when this is happening is to send mail or other update to the legal voter of when and where they voted. If someone lied about being them, they can speak up.

Here is the problem with this kind of claim: in most places, there is no enforcement arm looking to see if there is in-person fraud happening. It's EXTREMELY rare that the Government looks, and I mean actually looks, to see what's going on.

One of the very few rare times the Government REALLY looked at an election was the Bob Dornan/ Loretta Sanchez case.
In total, the Task Force found clear and convincing evidence that 748 invalid votes were cast in this election. Dornan lost by 984 votes.

You're switching out the category here. Those 748 votes were *not* from people lying about what their name was, that could be prevented by requiring photo ID. Those 748 votes were from people who *had* legal ID and voted under their legal names. What made them invalid was they were immigrants who didn't have the right to vote.

Right, which is a system which DOES require an ID to register, and they managed to register with an ID illegally. If THAT level of system failure was happening when we looked, then it's impossible to say with a straight face that no level of system failure is happening at the ballot when literally all you do is say the name of a registered voter and you're given a ballot and your vote is counted. In the very least, we need to have some vague level of check on that system - like literally every other nation on the planet.

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Yes, that is a category that happens more regularly. It was less than half a percent (0.5%) in this case, but that's significant. It can happen in part because there is a tiny percentage of immigrants can screw up and not understand the right to vote.

That is, frankly, an absurd take if you know the facts of the case. They didn't "screw up" this was Democratically funded groups actively going out to register immigrants, knowing they were not checking their status to make sure it was legal to register them. That's what the entire lawsuit was about and that part was proven, it's just they couldn't prove the number went beyond the number needed to win the election. And again, we never changed the system at all after we knew that was going on, on an organized basis.

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Anything that depends on people following instructions will get some percent of people screwing up - even if they're citizens fluent in English. There can be intentional illegal voting as well, of course. This is exacerbated by the U.S.'s patchwork ID system, where there is no federal ID, and people change out their IDs as they move from state to state. So apparently there's no easy way to check for citizenship status based on ID. Immigrants are allowed to drive and can get driver's licenses, but the status of their naturalization isn't tied to their driver's license ID.

We could, yah know, have a free universal ID for citizens. Like, oh I don't know, most other nations in the world?

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Yes, I support improving our systems so we can more easily verify whether someone is a citizen legal to vote or not. That doesn't involve any extra effort on the part of the voter.

I also would support a system that distributes free photo ID to all citizens, like what Mexico has done. If we did that, I'd be fine with requiring the ID to vote.

I would too. However the Democratic party opposes it, and claims it would be "racist" and "biased," again despite most nations in the world being able to do this just fine and being ranked by independent democracy foundations as having more sound democracies than ours right now.

jeff37923

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2022, 10:18:51 PM »
Actually if you bother to read the pdf the costs are outrageously overcalculated.  The portions that you cite validate this.
What is even funnier is how much blame gets cast of the inefficiency of the government offices.


anecdote:  As someone whos has had to replace most of those documents in real life, I'll call bullshit.



edit:  I'd like to see some actual numbers for how many of these supposed 'eligible voters' do not have an actual vote allowable photo ID...

You know, all the ones who can't drive vehicles, use a bank, buy alcohol or tobacco, etc.

Even when I was dirt poor, I was able to scrabble together the money and time to get an ID. (Not a driver's license)

Most of the talk about voter supression comes across as ignorant white people thinking black people are too stupid and poor to get an ID.

I would support a free or cheap voter ID card and more support for voting early, more places to vote, stuff like that. But then I support mail in ballots because with the proper security in place, that would reduce the cost and time of setting up voting booths, taking time off work, etc, etc.

States should definitely issue a free photo ID to citizens of the state.  The time costs are actually pretty negligible.

I know that my home state of Tennessee does this. If you can prove that you are a resident of TN, you can apply, and get one for free.
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3catcircus

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2022, 11:01:23 PM »
anecdote:  As someone whos has had to replace most of those documents in real life, I'll call bullshit.

edit:  I'd like to see some actual numbers for how many of these supposed 'eligible voters' do not have an actual vote allowable photo ID...

Even when I was dirt poor, I was able to scrabble together the money and time to get an ID. (Not a driver's license)

Most of the talk about voter supression comes across as ignorant white people thinking black people are too stupid and poor to get an ID.

I already linked to a survey showing how many Americans don't have a current valid photo ID. I'm open to seeing some other survey or study that show it is wrong.

But it seems like you're putting your own anecdotes over data. Like those who say it's racist to claim that black people are arrested and jailed more than white people. All of the data I have seen show that is clearly the case. That's what reality is. We can vary in how we explain it, but it is the truth that it is.

Likewise, elderly, poor, and black people all have a higher rate of lacking valid photo ID. I don't think that black people are stupider, or that people lacking photo ID are all stupid. It's just a question of circumstance.

No one cares about the number because it's not important.

What is important is why they don't have some type of ID. It is not difficult to apply for and obtain a valid ID. The argument of "Woe is me, I needed to go and get this other document that I lost because I was irresponsible and it'll cost me money and time!" doesn't cut it. Too fucking bad.  It's called navigating society.  If you can't be bothered to not lose important personal effects to the extent that trying to obtain a valid ID turns into a Homeric quest, you aren't someone whose vote is going to count for much anyway and maybe you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

jhkim

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2022, 12:10:45 AM »
The discussion of photo ID is getting a bit sidetracked from the general issue of election fraud.

I'd put again - photo ID verification is useful for only one type of fraud - where someone comes in and lies about their name, signs the register with the false name, and votes for another registered voter. Note that in order to do this, it means that whoever they are impersonating can't vote themselves, because that will be flagged as that voter voting twice. So the impersonator needs to know who is registered to vote but definitely won't vote. Unless they are masters of disguise, they need to go to a different polling place to vote again - again needing a confirmed registered voter who isn't voting in that polling place.

I believe this can and certainly does happen. There's a half-dozen people convicted trying to vote as a dead relative every year across the country - and I would guess there could be dozens or even hundreds more impersonators who aren't caught. However, I don't see how this approach can be used as top-down fraud to swing national elections. For it to be organized, then many thousands of people would need to be recruited to do this - and none of those thousands squeal on their recruiters.

If I were trying to defraud a national election, that seems like an unworkable strategy. I'm convinced that traditional strategies like gerrymandering and other semi-legal manipulations have far more impact.

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No one cares about the number because it's not important.

You might not care. However, moonsweeper and Bruwulf both specifically said they doubted the number of people existed and asked about proof.

What is important is why they don't have some type of ID. It is not difficult to apply for and obtain a valid ID. The argument of "Woe is me, I needed to go and get this other document that I lost because I was irresponsible and it'll cost me money and time!" doesn't cut it. Too fucking bad.  It's called navigating society.  If you can't be bothered to not lose important personal effects to the extent that trying to obtain a valid ID turns into a Homeric quest, you aren't someone whose vote is going to count for much anyway and maybe you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

It sounds like you expressly want to suppress the vote of these people. I'd be interested to discuss that argument, but I'd point out first that other people have been arguing the opposite - that Democrats are delusional that there is any attempt to suppress legal voters.

moonsweeper

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2022, 12:12:28 AM »
anecdote:  As someone whos has had to replace most of those documents in real life, I'll call bullshit.

edit:  I'd like to see some actual numbers for how many of these supposed 'eligible voters' do not have an actual vote allowable photo ID...

Even when I was dirt poor, I was able to scrabble together the money and time to get an ID. (Not a driver's license)

Most of the talk about voter supression comes across as ignorant white people thinking black people are too stupid and poor to get an ID.

I already linked to a survey showing how many Americans don't have a current valid photo ID. I'm open to seeing some other survey or study that show it is wrong.

But it seems like you're putting your own anecdotes over data. Like those who say it's racist to claim that black people are arrested and jailed more than white people. All of the data I have seen show that is clearly the case. That's what reality is. We can vary in how we explain it, but it is the truth that it is.

Likewise, elderly, poor, and black people all have a higher rate of lacking valid photo ID. I don't think that black people are stupider, or that people lacking photo ID are all stupid. It's just a question of circumstance.

No one cares about the number because it's not important.

What is important is why they don't have some type of ID. It is not difficult to apply for and obtain a valid ID. The argument of "Woe is me, I needed to go and get this other document that I lost because I was irresponsible and it'll cost me money and time!" doesn't cut it. Too fucking bad.  It's called navigating society.  If you can't be bothered to not lose important personal effects to the extent that trying to obtain a valid ID turns into a Homeric quest, you aren't someone whose vote is going to count for much anyway and maybe you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

The survey was a joke...
987 total sample size....
2% error with 95% confidence unless 'otherwise stated' and then almost all of their values were noted to be different with anywhere from 4% to 8% error

The first paragraph of the AARP article actually claimed a woman was unable to vote or get a Driver's License because she was not issued a Birth Certificate from the midwife...because no state can issue a driver's license to anyone who doesn't have a birth certificate (snerk!)...looks like they are conflating the issue to say she can't vote because of the BC issue when it is probably just the lack of a DL or other ID since she WAS issued an SSN... ::)

That's before we even get to the cost exaggeration in the 3rd link...


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GeekyBugle

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2022, 12:27:46 AM »
The discussion of photo ID is getting a bit sidetracked from the general issue of election fraud.

I'd put again - photo ID verification is useful for only one type of fraud - where someone comes in and lies about their name, signs the register with the false name, and votes for another registered voter. Note that in order to do this, it means that whoever they are impersonating can't vote themselves, because that will be flagged as that voter voting twice. So the impersonator needs to know who is registered to vote but definitely won't vote. Unless they are masters of disguise, they need to go to a different polling place to vote again - again needing a confirmed registered voter who isn't voting in that polling place.

I believe this can and certainly does happen. There's a half-dozen people convicted trying to vote as a dead relative every year across the country - and I would guess there could be dozens or even hundreds more impersonators who aren't caught. However, I don't see how this approach can be used as top-down fraud to swing national elections. For it to be organized, then many thousands of people would need to be recruited to do this - and none of those thousands squeal on their recruiters.

If I were trying to defraud a national election, that seems like an unworkable strategy. I'm convinced that traditional strategies like gerrymandering and other semi-legal manipulations have far more impact.

-------------

No one cares about the number because it's not important.

You might not care. However, moonsweeper and Bruwulf both specifically said they doubted the number of people existed and asked about proof.

What is important is why they don't have some type of ID. It is not difficult to apply for and obtain a valid ID. The argument of "Woe is me, I needed to go and get this other document that I lost because I was irresponsible and it'll cost me money and time!" doesn't cut it. Too fucking bad.  It's called navigating society.  If you can't be bothered to not lose important personal effects to the extent that trying to obtain a valid ID turns into a Homeric quest, you aren't someone whose vote is going to count for much anyway and maybe you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

It sounds like you expressly want to suppress the vote of these people. I'd be interested to discuss that argument, but I'd point out first that other people have been arguing the opposite - that Democrats are delusional that there is any attempt to suppress legal voters.

Being able to vote as a dead person means your voter lists are shit.

Dead people used to vote for the PRI too, and then we got serious about voting fraud, isued voter IDs and purge our lists before every election cycle.

It sounds like you want to keep the fraud that's being commited.

And if your lists are shit, if people can vote in two different voting districts, if non citizens can vote your electoral system is a joke, and a shithole like México does it better.
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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2022, 12:38:30 AM »
I'm pretty sure every democratic first world country on earth (and most third-world countries) other than the USA require some kind of picture ID to vote.
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jhkim

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2022, 12:57:09 AM »
Being able to vote as a dead person means your voter lists are shit.

Dead people used to vote for the PRI too, and then we got serious about voting fraud, isued voter IDs and purge our lists before every election cycle.

It sounds like you want to keep the fraud that's being commited.

And if your lists are shit, if people can vote in two different voting districts, if non citizens can vote your electoral system is a joke, and a shithole like México does it better.

I completely agree that our system sucks. My problem is the narrow-mindedness that current DMV-issued photo ID laws are the key and only improvement that anyone will consider implementing -- and if I oppose those laws and instead call for other fixes, then I'm made out to be in support of fraud.

jhkim

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2022, 01:03:25 AM »
States should definitely issue a free photo ID to citizens of the state.  The time costs are actually pretty negligible.

I know that my home state of Tennessee does this. If you can prove that you are a resident of TN, you can apply, and get one for free.

Do you have a cite for that? When I look at the Tennessee DMV website below, it says that non-driver photo IDs are $12, which is cheap but not free. There are free permanent photo IDs, but according to the page, only for those with a mental or physical disability.

https://www.dmv.org/tn-tennessee/id-cards.php

Ratman_tf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2022, 01:38:05 AM »
anecdote:  As someone whos has had to replace most of those documents in real life, I'll call bullshit.

edit:  I'd like to see some actual numbers for how many of these supposed 'eligible voters' do not have an actual vote allowable photo ID...

Even when I was dirt poor, I was able to scrabble together the money and time to get an ID. (Not a driver's license)

Most of the talk about voter supression comes across as ignorant white people thinking black people are too stupid and poor to get an ID.

I already linked to a survey showing how many Americans don't have a current valid photo ID. I'm open to seeing some other survey or study that show it is wrong.

But it seems like you're putting your own anecdotes over data. Like those who say it's racist to claim that black people are arrested and jailed more than white people. All of the data I have seen show that is clearly the case. That's what reality is. We can vary in how we explain it, but it is the truth that it is.

Right. Like saying that because 90+% of inmates are male, that means America is systematically oppressive towards men.
Something I don't think anyone has claimed, and yet numbers are used like that for other demographics all the time.

Quote
Likewise, elderly, poor, and black people all have a higher rate of lacking valid photo ID. I don't think that black people are stupider, or that people lacking photo ID are all stupid. It's just a question of circumstance.

And how many of them would manage to get an ID if it became a requirement to vote? That too is a circumstance.
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Ghostmaker

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2022, 10:35:55 AM »
jhkim confirmed as racist for thinking 'some people' can't figure out how to get a photo ID that you need these days to do just about anything.

Also, when I can buy a firearm without photo ID, you can vote without one. Those are my terms.

Zelen

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2022, 11:16:03 AM »
jhkim confirmed as racist for thinking 'some people' can't figure out how to get a photo ID that you need these days to do just about anything.

Also, when I can buy a firearm without photo ID, you can vote without one. Those are my terms.

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GeekyBugle

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2022, 11:22:24 AM »
Being able to vote as a dead person means your voter lists are shit.

Dead people used to vote for the PRI too, and then we got serious about voting fraud, isued voter IDs and purge our lists before every election cycle.

It sounds like you want to keep the fraud that's being commited.

And if your lists are shit, if people can vote in two different voting districts, if non citizens can vote your electoral system is a joke, and a shithole like México does it better.

I completely agree that our system sucks. My problem is the narrow-mindedness that current DMV-issued photo ID laws are the key and only improvement that anyone will consider implementing -- and if I oppose those laws and instead call for other fixes, then I'm made out to be in support of fraud.

Funny, I haven't seen ANYONE here saying that's the only fix needed, but it is part of the solution, and you are in oposition to it.

Tell me, you really think ANYONE (not counting those living in the street) in the USA is even close tyo being as poor or as far away from services as in México?

Do you have whole communities living in some mountain jungle or something?

If OUR "Natives" and poor can manage I'm sure yours can too.

If your problem is there's some that can't afford to get a copy of their birth certificate then make a charity drive so they have one.

But instead of that you just are against a part opf the solution, as Pundit, myself and others have pointed out, all of the west (or almost if there's any exception) demands a photo ID to vote, and most of the third world does too.

It was part of solving voter fraud in México, WHY are you against it to the point of not even considering workarounds fo0r what you perceive as it's drawbacks?
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Bruwulf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2022, 11:56:24 AM »
I completely agree that our system sucks. My problem is the narrow-mindedness that current DMV-issued photo ID laws are the key and only improvement that anyone will consider implementing -- and if I oppose those laws and instead call for other fixes, then I'm made out to be in support of fraud.

I - and most others - generally go to using a driver's licence because it's something a majority of people already have, and it's an easily comprehended concept that a lot of the framework is already in place for.

I - and most others - are also fine with it being extended to other, equally validated forms of ID, of which I've already mentioned in this thread, thank you very much. If your big hangup is, for some reason, having to go to the DMV... Hell, that's fine. Going to the DMV sucks. Nobody likes going to the DMV. Make one available at courthouses too, or something. That's fine.

And those aren't the only changes I support. But it doesn't matter. When "my side" proposes it, it literally doesn't matter what we propose, it's "racist" or some other -ist. It's racist when we purge invalid, illegal, fraudulent, and expired registrations from the voter registry, too, for example, and yet that's a bare minimum requirement for a trustworthy election system.

jhkim

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2022, 12:37:39 PM »
It was part of solving voter fraud in México, WHY are you against it to the point of not even considering workarounds fo0r what you perceive as it's drawbacks?

I don't understand. I've already said that I'm in favor of the Mexican system. If there were a law where everyone was offered a free ID with photo and thumbprint that they had to go to a local office to get in order to vote, I would support that system.

I've also discussed other easy workarounds, like voter notification. If voters were always notified of when and where they voted (by mail and optional text message), then someone else impersonating them when voting in-person would be very obvious - because the actual registered voter would report it.