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Author Topic: Status of 2020 election fraud  (Read 5802 times)

GeekyBugle

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2022, 07:54:14 PM »

I mean it shouldn't be that WE have a better electoral system than you guys.

With the evidence being the current US president, I'd say that it proves that Mexico does have a better electoral system.

I mean our current dear beloved comrade leader El Presidente is as dumb as a bag of rocks, but he got elected fair and square. Even if said dumb and his followers want to dismantle the electoral system and go back to the one when only the PRI "won" elections.
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RPGPundit

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2022, 11:22:19 PM »

I mean it shouldn't be that WE have a better electoral system than you guys.

With the evidence being the current US president, I'd say that it proves that Mexico does have a better electoral system.

Have you seen the current Mexican president?
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2022, 01:19:19 AM »

I mean it shouldn't be that WE have a better electoral system than you guys.

With the evidence being the current US president, I'd say that it proves that Mexico does have a better electoral system.

Have you seen the current Mexican president?

But AMLO was elected fair and square, the only idiots claiming our electoral system is corrupt are him and his idiotic followers.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Ratman_tf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2022, 01:29:37 AM »
What is different (and entirely unexplained or unexplainable) is the seemingly "coincidental" manner n which multiple states all stopped counting for the night and then when they restarted the count the next morning there was somehow a prompt jump in the ballots going for Biden. There is incontrovertible proof that election officials and state government officials had conference calls in the early morning hours right after the election. There is incontrovertible proof that many states had electronic voting machines that were "updated" hours before the polls opened and/or that had connectivity to the Internet during the election.

This is the big one for me. The election may not have been fixed, but it fucking looks like it.
The Democrats (and their anti-Trump allies in the Republican party) had means, motive and opportunity. And with the state of voting due to Covid, this was probably the sketchiest presidential election I've seen.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 01:31:44 AM by Ratman_tf »
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Bruwulf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2022, 08:27:33 AM »

This is the big one for me. The election may not have been fixed, but it fucking looks like it.
The Democrats (and their anti-Trump allies in the Republican party) had means, motive and opportunity. And with the state of voting due to Covid, this was probably the sketchiest presidential election I've seen.

Combine this with the refusal to actually properly investigate it in many cases, and the refusal to do the one very easy thing needed to secure the elections against the things that are being claimed.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2022, 09:27:31 AM »
What is different (and entirely unexplained or unexplainable) is the seemingly "coincidental" manner n which multiple states all stopped counting for the night and then when they restarted the count the next morning there was somehow a prompt jump in the ballots going for Biden. There is incontrovertible proof that election officials and state government officials had conference calls in the early morning hours right after the election. There is incontrovertible proof that many states had electronic voting machines that were "updated" hours before the polls opened and/or that had connectivity to the Internet during the election.

This is the big one for me. The election may not have been fixed, but it fucking looks like it.
The Democrats (and their anti-Trump allies in the Republican party) had means, motive and opportunity. And with the state of voting due to Covid, this was probably the sketchiest presidential election I've seen.
This, coupled with the 'no fucking way' reaction people have to Joe Biden somehow outpolling Barack Obama and Bill Clinton.

Haha nope.

Mistwell

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2022, 01:54:22 PM »
What is different (and entirely unexplained or unexplainable) is the seemingly "coincidental" manner n which multiple states all stopped counting for the night and then when they restarted the count the next morning there was somehow a prompt jump in the ballots going for Biden. There is incontrovertible proof that election officials and state government officials had conference calls in the early morning hours right after the election. There is incontrovertible proof that many states had electronic voting machines that were "updated" hours before the polls opened and/or that had connectivity to the Internet during the election.

This is the big one for me. The election may not have been fixed, but it fucking looks like it.
The Democrats (and their anti-Trump allies in the Republican party) had means, motive and opportunity. And with the state of voting due to Covid, this was probably the sketchiest presidential election I've seen.
This, coupled with the 'no fucking way' reaction people have to Joe Biden somehow outpolling Barack Obama and Bill Clinton.

Haha nope.

That part surprises me not at all. Trump behaved like a troll on the Internet for four years, and that pissed off a lot of people who otherwise would have voted for him just for being a Republican. Biden's support was mostly just people pissed at Trump.

KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2022, 02:32:03 PM »
I feel like the Trump antipathy was real, if partly manufactured, or else right wing polling sites would never have had Biden leading in the polls at all in the run up to the election proper. These days a lot of the Democratic strategy, even as stated, is “orange man bad”. Heck, both parties seem to rely primarily on how bad the other is stated to be to motivate their voters these days, rather than their own virtues. IDK if it’s necessarily the best thing for our democracy.

I think voter fraud tends to be overstated more generally, if you look at the actual studies and verifiable mass statistics on it. There’s a reason why in the 60+ formal lawsuits started within a year of 2020 relative to the election and electoral process at large, many of which were not dismissed by the court under standing specifically, not a one could or did prove their case rather than losing.

That said, I think the Dems started it, and I really don’t think it illegal for another nation to help you win an election so long as you didn’t solicit them to actually mess with the votes. We try to influence elections all the time, so Russia making an attempt to influence us through social media and other measures, and some successful strategic email releases way back in 2016 means jack shit. Democrats started the decline in electoral faith the moment they wrongly questioned 2016’s legitimacy, which was morally wrong to do on so many levels. Now it bites them on the ass and they cry foul.

 Moreover, anyone not in favor of electoral reform, or convinced that voting restrictions for election security are racism, needs to get their head checked. Enough people have lost faith in our electoral system that something needs to be done, and that something is publicized reform that will restore faith in the system. It doesn’t matter if the problem itself is demonstrably widespread or not, if people think it is, and our system does not inspire faith.

The Democrats seem to want to play the victim (their favorite move) not 4 years after pulling this shit themselves, and somehow think that this and demonizing their political opponents, rather than genuine reflection on the state of electoral faith within America, will win them the next election. Hell, maybe it will, but it’s disgusting.
 

jhkim

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2022, 02:54:42 PM »
The biggest evidence that voter fraud could be happening is the fact that the Democratic party didn't react to the 2020 election controversy by saying "we're going to take all the measures we can possibly take to make sure that no one will have cause to question the next election, to make sure as many Americans as possible believe it is free and fair". Instead they did what a third world banana republic does: doubled down on repeating the exact same dubious policies while calling the other party "dangerous extremists" and threatening anyone who questions the election of the glorious leader.

This is like saying that the biggest evidence that the Earth is flat is the fact that the scientific community at large isn't reacting to that accusation with a massive, coordinated campaign to educate the populace on the world's semispherical shape. What you posted is "anecdote", not "evidence".

First of all, Pundit calls out the Democratic Party's reaction - but the Republican Party's reaction was largely the same. It's also just doesn't fit simple psychology. If someone is falsely accused of a crime without solid evidence, the normal reaction isn't to be contrite and say "Oh, I'm so sorry that you think that of me. Let me bend over backwards to show you how innocent I am." The normal reaction is to get angry and say "Fuck you, asshole."


Almost, the biggest evidence of voter fraud is that any attempt... any attempt to make the voting process more secure, like requiring ID to vote, is branded as "voter suppression" and "racism".

There are tons of ways to make the voting process more secure that don't involve adding more hoops for voters to jump through. Funding investigations and observers, reforming voting machines like Georgia did so that there is an accurate paper trail, updating voter rolls with existing information like death certificates and change-of-address, and many others.

Voter suppression is a big issue that goes much more broadly than ID. Voting day should be a national holiday so that people don't have to rush from work. There are often long lines for polls in poorer districts, which is flatly unequal. Waiting over 8 hours in line to vote is a travesty. If people who have a car and easy time off and live in the right districts can trivially get to vote in minutes, while others have to rush from work, take the bus, and wait in line for hours -- that's flatly unequal. Voting isn't a privilege that people should pay for. It's a right that the government should guarantee equal access to.

Yes, there are people like me who are concerned about voter suppression - but I don't agree that this is a sign that I or others support fraud.

KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2022, 03:19:17 PM »
In all fairness, there are absentee voting laws in all 50 states, and early voting in 46, 50 counting absentee early voting. There are ways to vote, even if it isn’t always instant gratification. It’s governance by the majority who care enough to participate.

Likewise, disparate impact as a judicial argument for voting discrimination is kinda bs because our entire society is capitalist in nature, with some respect for the right to property, and capitalism rewards the rich over the poor in lifestyle and ease. Disproportionate impact within this context generally starts with the assumption that if a category is poorer due to historical contexts that can’t easily be “corrected” instantly without a communist redistribution and total restructuring of our society into something much worse, and that quite rationally makes doing something less easy ON AVERAGE for a category, this then means it is discrimination against said category directly. Should we go after companies that make things cost money because that makes it harder for the poor, and therefore ON AVERAGE minorities to buy? What about going after parks for tailoring themselves towards those with more leisure? How about banning all political parties and public service because on average the poor, and therefore minorities, have less time for participation? It’s ludicrous.

Now to be fair, some forms of voter intimidation are racially motivated, morally wrong, and politically encouraged. These  threaten election security and integrity and election reform demands addressing them too. But I think voter suppression as framed by the democrats these days is a definition and distortion standing on ideological sand.

Bruwulf

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2022, 04:28:23 PM »
There are tons of ways to make the voting process more secure that don't involve adding more hoops for voters to jump through. Funding investigations and observers, reforming voting machines like Georgia did so that there is an accurate paper trail, updating voter rolls with existing information like death certificates and change-of-address, and many others.

ID is not, realistically speaking, a hoop. You basically can't function in legal society without photo ID. The incredibly, incredibly overwhelming majority of people who can legally vote to begin with already have some form of government issued photo ID. Hell, I have two in my wallet. The rounding error of people who don't can get one, it's not that big a deal. I'm even fine with making it free, although I'm aware it currently isn't in most cases.

Observers can - as we've seen in the past - be shut out of areas and in other ways deceived, and investigations are after-the-fact and unlikely to go anywhere.

Updating the voter lists is important, too, but we hear cries of voter suppression when some state does that, too. We just heard it again when Florida did it recently.

No. Secure the access to the vote. Don't try to make it easier to clean up a mess, prevent the mess from happening in the first place.

Voter suppression is a big issue that goes much more broadly than ID. Voting day should be a national holiday so that people don't have to rush from work. There are often long lines for polls in poorer districts, which is flatly unequal. Waiting over 8 hours in line to vote is a travesty. If people who have a car and easy time off and live in the right districts can trivially get to vote in minutes, while others have to rush from work, take the bus, and wait in line for hours -- that's flatly unequal. Voting isn't a privilege that people should pay for. It's a right that the government should guarantee equal access to.

Yes, there are people like me who are concerned about voter suppression - but I don't agree that this is a sign that I or others support fraud.

I'm fine with making it a paid holiday. I don't know what systemic knobs need to be tweaked to open more voting places in congested areas, but that should be tweaked too. I'm not saying voter suppression can't happen, what I'm saying is that it's telling that any attempt to secure the system is labeled as voter suppression.

Zelen

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2022, 04:46:32 PM »
Why would the burden of proof be on anyone to "prove" voter fraud? The burden of proof should be on the election commissions to prove that fraud did not occur.

At a bare minimum, every single vote should be digitized and published somewhere publicly so independent auditors can validate votes. Voters should all have a unique private key that allows them to compare their vote to the digitized version of the ballot and verify the vote was recorded correctly.

All vote counting and activity involving handling of ballots should be video recorded and records preserved. Any disruption or malfunction of these systems automatically invalidates any vote where the chain of custody is uncertain and not verified.

Mail in ballots should be outlawed except in circumstances where the voter is physically unable to attend the voting booth. Ballot drop boxes are illegal. Use an AI facial recognition service (I recently had to do this just to check into a hotel) to verify identity with photo ID. Double up with signature verification.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 05:14:49 PM by Zelen »

KindaMeh

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2022, 05:20:01 PM »
Why would the burden of proof be on anyone to "prove" voter fraud? The burden of proof should be on the election commissions to prove that fraud did not occur.

At a bare minimum, every single vote should be digitized and published somewhere publicly so independent auditors can validate votes. Voters should all have a unique private key that allows them to compare their vote to the digitized version of the ballot and verify the vote was recorded correctly.

All vote counting and activity involving handling of ballots should be video recorded and records preserved. Any disruption or malfunction of these systems automatically invalidates any vote where the chain of custody is uncertain and not verified.

I agree with the first point as regards political reform of the electoral system, there unless it can be convincing to the public in no uncertain terms that the system is safe reform should be undertaken.

As regards a judicial overturning of an election, however, burden of proof is pretty clearly on the person claiming fraud to prove people did illegal shit. And that it was genuinely enough to sway the election. As part of that, that those parties overseeing the election had unsound and negligent methods or demonstrably messed with the process. You want to get yourself installed as president you prove you would’ve definitely won without chicanery afoot. You want the other guy thrown in jail for this you prove he personally did something illegal, with presumption of innocence because that’s how our system does and likely should work.

I’d agree with the stuff you say about taping polling sites and making it all available to everyone if not for privacy and voter intimidation/retaliation concerns. (Canceling, doxxing, people like maybe even Antifa type folk showing up to screw with you, or folks trying to get you to claim your vote was wrong through social pressure, etcetera could totally happen.) Also, people might disrupt stuff just to disqualify votes from areas likely to go one way or another if the disqualification rule went into play. 

That private key idea is pretty darn good though, I’d like to think.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 05:24:44 PM by KindaMeh »

jhkim

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2022, 05:43:54 PM »
There are tons of ways to make the voting process more secure that don't involve adding more hoops for voters to jump through. Funding investigations and observers, reforming voting machines like Georgia did so that there is an accurate paper trail, updating voter rolls with existing information like death certificates and change-of-address, and many others.

ID is not, realistically speaking, a hoop. You basically can't function in legal society without photo ID. The incredibly, incredibly overwhelming majority of people who can legally vote to begin with already have some form of government issued photo ID. Hell, I have two in my wallet. The rounding error of people who don't can get one, it's not that big a deal. I'm even fine with making it free, although I'm aware it currently isn't in most cases.

It is a small minority of people hampered by this - but that number is vastly more than the number in-person fraud cases that might be prevented. There are hundreds of thousands of people who don't have a current valid ID, and they'd have to pay to get one.

I have seen nothing to suggest that in-person fraud (i.e. someone comes in and lies about their identity to vote) is at all significant. One easy way to at least identify when this is happening is to send mail or other update to the legal voter of when and where they voted. If someone lied about being them, they can speak up.

Voter suppression is a big issue that goes much more broadly than ID. Voting day should be a national holiday so that people don't have to rush from work. There are often long lines for polls in poorer districts, which is flatly unequal. Waiting over 8 hours in line to vote is a travesty. If people who have a car and easy time off and live in the right districts can trivially get to vote in minutes, while others have to rush from work, take the bus, and wait in line for hours -- that's flatly unequal. Voting isn't a privilege that people should pay for. It's a right that the government should guarantee equal access to.

Yes, there are people like me who are concerned about voter suppression - but I don't agree that this is a sign that I or others support fraud.

I'm fine with making it a paid holiday. I don't know what systemic knobs need to be tweaked to open more voting places in congested areas, but that should be tweaked too. I'm not saying voter suppression can't happen, what I'm saying is that it's telling that any attempt to secure the system is labeled as voter suppression.

But I've already listed out many ways to secure the system that are *not* labeled voter suppression. So your statement is flatly wrong. You're ignoring all attempts to secure the system *except for* voter ID.

Yes, voter ID requirements are labeled as voter suppression - because in the U.S., they do make it more difficult for thousands of legal voters. Even though that's a small minority, they still have their rights. I would support voter ID if the government took on the responsibility of issuing a free ID card to all citizens. That's not how any of the current restriction laws work, though.

jhkim

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Re: Status of 2020 election fraud
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2022, 06:40:58 PM »
Why would the burden of proof be on anyone to "prove" voter fraud? The burden of proof should be on the election commissions to prove that fraud did not occur.

At a bare minimum, every single vote should be digitized and published somewhere publicly so independent auditors can validate votes. Voters should all have a unique private key that allows them to compare their vote to the digitized version of the ballot and verify the vote was recorded correctly.

The election commissions *did* prove that fraud did not occur, by validating their votes and presenting their validations to the state governments. The state governments can and did demand additional investigation in some cases, but in the end, they authorized the voting results. If you mean that the election commissions need to prove themselves to 100% of Americans in the court of public opinion, that's flatly impossible.

Regarding your digitization suggestion, I'm concerned about exactly what you mean. It is *required* in a secret ballot that no one - especially government auditors - can see exactly what an individual voter's vote was. That includes the voter themselves. Having a secret key that's given to the voter would mean that if the voter reveals their key to anyone, that anonymity is lost and someone can check out how they voted. For example, there have been problems with bosses requiring that their workers prove they voted correctly, or local governments listing and targeting dissidents based on looking at their votes.

In any case, the percentage of voters who would electronically check their votes is likely to be very small.

In general, the U.S. has a ridiculously messy election system - with different systems for each state and often varying county to county and even by locality. There are dozens of voting machines, hundreds of ballot designs, and different registration systems. Each year there are tens of thousands of part-time volunteers who operate the polling places, and then turn over to local election commissions.

This makes it incredibly difficult to get a top-level security. With only part-time volunteers and local officials, there are always lots of mistakes and possibly local bias, as well as dozens if not hundreds of fraud cases that slip through. On the other hand, it seems also very difficult for there to be a top-down control of it all for the same reason.

EDITED TO ADD: There have been plenty of state and local level reforms to improve election security, but they tend not to get much attention. For example, I thought Georgia did well with its recent reforms to get a simple and robust election machines with a paper trail.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 06:52:14 PM by jhkim »