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Author Topic: The knitting community is now Woke, somebody shoot me.  (Read 8116 times)

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #120 on: March 14, 2019, 01:48:39 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1079032
It depends on which kind of socialist welfare ideas you're talking about. A strong majority supports Medicaid and Social Security - which are considered welfare according to the chart Alathon gave. Medicare and unemployment are also pretty widely supported, I think. I don't know, but I suspect most are fine with free school lunches. I think the more controversial are Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and food stamps, but those are also much less common.

I'm thinking of the more radical "Green New Deal" stuff.
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jhkim

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« Reply #121 on: March 15, 2019, 07:09:52 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat
You can't win elections if you are the party of a diminishing demographic.
Quote from: S'mon;1078950
That's not true at all. A group that feels threatened can be much easier to rally and can create cohesive support. Even when they are a minority of the electorate they can still domunate elections if they vote cohesively.
I agree with S'mon - plus I think diminishing or growing is a bit misguided. A rapidly growing demographic can't win elections if it is going from 2% to 12%. Conversely, a diminishing demographic can win elections if it is going from 80% to 60%. To be specific, if U.S. Republicans could expand to get 90% of the non-hispanic white vote, then they'd be securely in control a while. If, further, they could overhaul immigration - then they could potentially change how demographics are evolving in the U.S.

I think the problem with Alathon's ethno-nationalist view isn't that whites lack the ability to implement it - it's that most whites aren't on board with ethno-nationalism.


Quote from: Ratman_tf
I will say there seem to be a fuckton (perhaps they're a vocal minority) of whites supporting and voting for these kinds socialist welfare ideas.
Quote from: jhkim
It depends on which kind of socialist welfare ideas you're talking about. A strong majority supports Medicaid and Social Security - which are considered welfare according to the chart Alathon gave. Medicare and unemployment are also pretty widely supported, I think. I don't know, but I suspect most are fine with free school lunches. I think the more controversial are Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and food stamps, but those are also much less common.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1079034
I'm thinking of the more radical "Green New Deal" stuff.

That's a different topic, I feel. Alathon showed a chart about existing welfare use, and noted how white supposedly use less welfare then blacks or Latinos. I believe his broader point there, but I'm very skeptical of the actual graph data from the American Institute. The Green New Deal is different - and to me seems more like a vaporware talking point than something measurable in people's lives.

deadDMwalking

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« Reply #122 on: March 15, 2019, 09:44:15 PM »
In a lot of ways, I'm fiscally conservative. The big problem I have with people claiming to be conservative is their willingness to decouple NECESSARY costs from actual prices.  

There's a pretty good book called the Value of Nothing that explores this topic.  

Take this situation: A fast-food restaurant employees 100 people, but each of them only work 10-15 hours per week, and they're expected to be 'flexible'.  They may come in for a 4-hour shift and then be sent home after 1-hour.  They might be called that morning and be expected to come in on short notice.  At $8/hour, they're earning $80-120/week before taxes.  They're seeking other employment, but the other employers in the area are doing the same thing.  Their best bet is getting two or three of these jobs and trying to cobble them together into a full-time job despite the difficulties.  Despite their desire and willingness to work, they are living below the poverty level.  They qualify for Medicaid, SNAP and other assistance programs.  A hamburger at this restaurant costs $1.  As a consumer, would you rather pay $1 for the hamburger and have $1 taken out of your pocket in the form of taxes or would you rather the hamburger cost $2?  

The Green New Deal is a starting point about similar discussions.  Gas is cheap energy, but it does have waste products.  Do we have to clean those up?  If so, it should be reflected in the cost of the gas.  If gas costs me $2.18/gallon at the pump, but I'm losing $1.25/gallon out of my pocket in taxes I can't see, I'd rather the gas cost me $3.43/gallon and I could recognize that finding a less expensive alternative was worthwhile.  

We're trashing the environment. Using things that cause environmental damage does not reflect the costs of environmental cleanup.  That's a problem.  It incentivizes continued environmental destruction and also encourages people to try avoid the direct costs.  If the costs were bundled together at the time of consumption, people would make smarter decisions.
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker

Pat
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« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2019, 03:21:48 AM »
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1079274
In a lot of ways, I'm fiscally conservative. The big problem I have with people claiming to be conservative is their willingness to decouple NECESSARY costs from actual prices.  

There's a pretty good book called the Value of Nothing that explores this topic.  

Take this situation: A fast-food restaurant employees 100 people, but each of them only work 10-15 hours per week, and they're expected to be 'flexible'.  They may come in for a 4-hour shift and then be sent home after 1-hour.  They might be called that morning and be expected to come in on short notice.  At $8/hour, they're earning $80-120/week before taxes.  They're seeking other employment, but the other employers in the area are doing the same thing.  Their best bet is getting two or three of these jobs and trying to cobble them together into a full-time job despite the difficulties.  Despite their desire and willingness to work, they are living below the poverty level.  They qualify for Medicaid, SNAP and other assistance programs.  A hamburger at this restaurant costs $1.  As a consumer, would you rather pay $1 for the hamburger and have $1 taken out of your pocket in the form of taxes or would you rather the hamburger cost $2?  

The Green New Deal is a starting point about similar discussions.  Gas is cheap energy, but it does have waste products.  Do we have to clean those up?  If so, it should be reflected in the cost of the gas.  If gas costs me $2.18/gallon at the pump, but I'm losing $1.25/gallon out of my pocket in taxes I can't see, I'd rather the gas cost me $3.43/gallon and I could recognize that finding a less expensive alternative was worthwhile.  

We're trashing the environment. Using things that cause environmental damage does not reflect the costs of environmental cleanup.  That's a problem.  It incentivizes continued environmental destruction and also encourages people to try avoid the direct costs.  If the costs were bundled together at the time of consumption, people would make smarter decisions.
You're talking about externalities, where the actual costs of a good or service aren't aren't reflected in the price the purchaser has to pay for a good or service. The classic example is pollution, which creates health problems and cleanup costs, which aren't part of the price tag to build or run a factory. They have a horribly distorting effect on the economy because they warp incentives, encouraging people to buy the cheap now instead of factoring in the long term or broader costs.

But the government has a horrible fucking record at addressing those kinds of externalities. Governmental costs are almost entirely decoupled from anything. Any taxes they impose tend to be pulled out of a hat, and go into a general pool rather than being spent to defray whatever problem they're supposed to address. And the reason why is also incentives. Politicians are incentivized to promise the Moon, but spend nothing, so they make huge commitments and charge them to future generations. They're incentivized to react to the cause du jour, and thus overreact to things that lead to dramatic news coverage, and never take a long term view. They're incentivized to push money toward their favored interest groups, so they play shell games.

As long as politiicans are involved, the government is simply incapable in any way of a nuanced assessment of the actual costs, updated as our understanding of those costs change, and ensuring that money is charged to the people who incur the costs rather than the body politic. At best, the government is a sledgehammer that can entirely ban certain behaviors, or harass and eventually drive companies out of business if they're doing something that becomes unpopular. The only way this could really be addressed is entirely revamping the incentives that drive politicians.

Spinachcat

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« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2019, 04:21:24 AM »
Quote from: S'mon;1078950
That's not true at all. A group that feels threatened can be much easier to rally and can create cohesive support. Even when they are a minority of the electorate they can still domunate elections if they vote cohesively.


Cohesive support only matters if the group is localized. AKA, they can win city or perhaps state elections if enough of their ethnic group is local, but if the demographic is shrinking, its losing its footprint, especially nationally.

Also, in the US, the major dividing lines are class, not race, regardless of how the MSM spins its identity politics propaganda. Once "minorities" become middle class, they vote like "middle class whites" far more than "poor minorities". And while you do see racial lines in party membership, most Americans aren't liberal, conservative, Republican or Democrat.

But maybe Crazy Eyes Cortez and her cohorts are going to fire up white ethno-nationalism in the USA and pit White Republicans vs. Non-White Democrats and bring the MSM's fever dream into reality. Personally, I don't see that because the "Green New Deal" and other SJW commie nonsense threatens non-Whites seeking prosperity and upward social mobility.


Quote from: deadDMwalking;1079274
In a lot of ways, I'm fiscally conservative. The big problem I have with people claiming to be conservative is their willingness to decouple NECESSARY costs from actual prices.


The majority of people on BOTH TEAMS don't want to face the actual price of their choices.

RandyB

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« Reply #125 on: March 16, 2019, 10:08:28 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1079309

The majority of people on BOTH TEAMS don't want to face the actual price of their choices.

The majority of people PERIOD don't want to face the actual price of their choices, because "muh freedumbs!"

DocJones

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« Reply #126 on: March 16, 2019, 08:41:17 PM »
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1079274
We're trashing the environment.
No we're not.  We'r probably the most environmentally sensitive culture in the world.
I lived through the 'trashing the environment' decades of the 60's and 70's.

Crawford Tillinghast

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« Reply #127 on: March 16, 2019, 11:53:08 PM »
Quote from: RandyB;1079338
The majority of people PERIOD don't want to face the actual price of their choices, because "muh freedumbs!"


A burglar broke into a house one time and was looking around for the best items to take, when he heard a voice:  "Jesus is watching you!  Jesus will punish you!"

The burglar checked around, and found a parrot.  The parrot says again, "Jesus is watching you!"

The burglar mutters, "I'm not worried."

"You should be!  Jesus is watching you!"

He looks back, "Hey, you're a pretty smart bird.  What's your name?"

"Moses!"

"That's ridiculous!  What kind of people would name a bird Moses?"

"The same kind of people who would name their rottweiler Jesus - and Jesus is WATCHING YOU!"

The moral being that people aren't worried about vague consequences somewhere down the road.  They might be overblown.  They might not show up until after we're dead and buried.  Somebody might come up with some whiz-bang technology that solves the problem easily.  It's only when one is in the room with the enraged guard dog that one starts to be concerned.

Snowman0147

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« Reply #128 on: March 17, 2019, 12:26:39 AM »
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1079440
A burglar broke into a house one time and was looking around for the best items to take, when he heard a voice:  "Jesus is watching you!  Jesus will punish you!"

The burglar checked around, and found a parrot.  The parrot says again, "Jesus is watching you!"

The burglar mutters, "I'm not worried."

"You should be!  Jesus is watching you!"

He looks back, "Hey, you're a pretty smart bird.  What's your name?"

"Moses!"

"That's ridiculous!  What kind of people would name a bird Moses?"

"The same kind of people who would name their rottweiler Jesus - and Jesus is WATCHING YOU!"

The moral being that people aren't worried about vague consequences somewhere down the road.  They might be overblown.  They might not show up until after we're dead and buried.  Somebody might come up with some whiz-bang technology that solves the problem easily.  It's only when one is in the room with the enraged guard dog that one starts to be concerned.

I am stealing this story.

Crawford Tillinghast

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« Reply #129 on: March 17, 2019, 01:16:44 AM »
Quote from: Snowman0147;1079443
I am stealing this story.

Hep yersef.  Talking parrot jokes were all the rage back in the 80's.  I don't remember many, but that one seemed apropo.

Shasarak

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« Reply #130 on: March 17, 2019, 05:29:01 AM »
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1079448
Talking parrot jokes were all the rage back in the 80's.  I don't remember many, but that one seemed apropo.

Hes not dead, hes just sleeping.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

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pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

The Spaniard

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« Reply #131 on: March 17, 2019, 08:46:18 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;1077915
I hope some others will comment in response to Alathon's magic dirt argument, because I found it pretty repellent.

Over the last century, blacks *should* have voted for their own advancement. The U.S. of 1919 was extremely racist, and voting for fair treatment was voting for the advancement of their ethnicity. Conversely, whites were sure as hell voting and acting for the advancement of their own ethnicity. To the degree that this has changed, it is because civil rights have been advanced - to a large degree by black leaders.

I disagree with your premise that whites are voting to advance their own ethnicity.  There is no such thing.  "White" is a bogus term made up by the US gov't to divide people.  For most of the 20th century, and arguably still, Americans descended from European immigrants identified with their specific backgrounds, not some all encompassing "white" ethnicity.  Anyone I've spoken to regarding politics more recently votes for their own personal needs, not some overriding white (or black for that matter) agenda.

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« Reply #132 on: March 17, 2019, 07:38:48 PM »
Quote from: The Spaniard;1079470
"White" is a bogus term made up by the US gov't to divide people.

"Non-Hispanic white" is still one of the weirdest things on US gov't paperwork.

I understand why people want "European-American" listed instead, but the USA is fucked because of all this hyphenation division.

jhkim

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« Reply #133 on: March 17, 2019, 10:37:57 PM »
Quote from: Alathon;1078518
As for who my ideas are popular with, and their narratives?  The Thomas Sowells of the world do nothing to ruin my narrative of ethno-nationalism because they are outliers, and votes are decided by numbers.  If you were to claim that a majority of castizos would vote for Republican policies, I would find that claim credible.  More than 50% of Mexicans, Guatemalans, Salvadorans, etc...?  Nah.  We have a century of their choices to examine and that's not how they swing.  It's not by accident that the prosperous parts of South America are the ones where castizos have strong influence or dominance.  Such as Uruguay.
Quote from: jhkim
I hope some others will comment in response to Alathon's magic dirt argument, because I found it pretty repellent.

Over the last century, blacks *should* have voted for their own advancement. The U.S. of 1919 was extremely racist, and voting for fair treatment was voting for the advancement of their ethnicity. Conversely, whites were sure as hell voting and acting for the advancement of their own ethnicity. To the degree that this has changed, it is because civil rights have been advanced - to a large degree by black leaders.
Quote from: The Spaniard;1079470
I disagree with your premise that whites are voting to advance their own ethnicity.  There is no such thing.  "White" is a bogus term made up by the US gov't to divide people.  For most of the 20th century, and arguably still, Americans descended from European immigrants identified with their specific backgrounds, not some all encompassing "white" ethnicity.  Anyone I've spoken to regarding politics more recently votes for their own personal needs, not some overriding white (or black for that matter) agenda.
I don't think that the concept of whiteness was imposed by the federal government. Indeed, both in history and the present, many people strongly opposed to the federal government have championed a white identity.

I would agree that in the present day, most people don't vote for an ethnic agenda. But some people do, to the point of explicitly having a narrative of ethno-nationalism.

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« Reply #134 on: March 18, 2019, 05:05:40 AM »
OK, closing this.
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