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Author Topic: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?  (Read 19469 times)

Pat

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #345 on: November 26, 2021, 12:21:10 PM »
From a 'personal protection' point of view, and as a self-defense instructor. I still maintain that you're always better off not going into a hostile environment, even if you are legally entitled to. Property can be replaced but you can't.
The police in Kenosha are firm believers in your principles.

I put my own safety far above somebody else's property... Mind you, I also believe in 'hard policing' for law breakers. And if you're out rioting while damaging property the Police should be in there fast and cracking skulls while making arrests. You've got a right to protest peacefully. Go beyond that, then FU!
I think the police were much better off since they decided not to go into a hostile environment and break skulls, even though they were legally entitled to.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #346 on: November 26, 2021, 12:30:04 PM »
From a 'personal protection' point of view, and as a self-defense instructor. I still maintain that you're always better off not going into a hostile environment, even if you are legally entitled to. Property can be replaced but you can't.
The police in Kenosha are firm believers in your principles.

I put my own safety far above somebody else's property... Mind you, I also believe in 'hard policing' for law breakers. And if you're out rioting while damaging property the Police should be in there fast and cracking skulls while making arrests. You've got a right to protest peacefully. Go beyond that, then FU!
I think the police were much better off since they decided not to go into a hostile environment and break skulls, even though they were legally entitled to.

Of course, they are paid professionals.... And that's their job. So, slight difference there. LOL.

But feel free to defend someone else's property. Enjoy! I'll watch it on the TV.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

Pat

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #347 on: November 26, 2021, 12:35:51 PM »
From a 'personal protection' point of view, and as a self-defense instructor. I still maintain that you're always better off not going into a hostile environment, even if you are legally entitled to. Property can be replaced but you can't.
The police in Kenosha are firm believers in your principles.

I put my own safety far above somebody else's property... Mind you, I also believe in 'hard policing' for law breakers. And if you're out rioting while damaging property the Police should be in there fast and cracking skulls while making arrests. You've got a right to protest peacefully. Go beyond that, then FU!
I think the police were much better off since they decided not to go into a hostile environment and break skulls, even though they were legally entitled to.

Of course, they are paid professionals.... And that's their job. So, slight difference there. LOL.

But feel free to defend someone else's property. Enjoy! I'll watch it on the TV.
I think the "it's someone else's job" syndrome is one of the fundamental problems with the modern world. If nobody takes personal responsibility when something bad happens, then adults are turned into the moral equivalents of children.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #348 on: November 26, 2021, 12:43:40 PM »

I think the "it's someone else's job" syndrome is one of the fundamental problems with the modern world. If nobody takes personal responsibility when something bad happens, then adults are turned into the moral equivalents of children.

It depends on the situation... And that's a rather large topic.

But I'd be asking myself, if I was a citizen of Kenosha, why were the Police not knocking the shit out of some of the worst offenders. They are 'supposed' to be stopping shit like that from happening.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

HappyDaze

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #349 on: November 26, 2021, 12:46:57 PM »
From a 'personal protection' point of view, and as a self-defense instructor. I still maintain that you're always better off not going into a hostile environment, even if you are legally entitled to. Property can be replaced but you can't.
The police in Kenosha are firm believers in your principles.

I put my own safety far above somebody else's property... Mind you, I also believe in 'hard policing' for law breakers. And if you're out rioting while damaging property the Police should be in there fast and cracking skulls while making arrests. You've got a right to protest peacefully. Go beyond that, then FU!
I think the police were much better off since they decided not to go into a hostile environment and break skulls, even though they were legally entitled to.

Of course, they are paid professionals.... And that's their job. So, slight difference there. LOL.

But feel free to defend someone else's property. Enjoy! I'll watch it on the TV.
I think the "it's someone else's job" syndrome is one of the fundamental problems with the modern world. If nobody takes personal responsibility when something bad happens, then adults are turned into the moral equivalents of children.
Modern society requires this to varying degrees. "When something bad happens" it often takes specialized skills to do more good than harm, and this can apply for stopping crime, dealing with medical emergencies, rescuing people from disasters (including structure fires) and more. That's not to say that there aren't some basic steps the average person can take to help others in many situations, but vigilantes are about as beneficial as a bystander trying to to run I to a burning buying to rescue trapped people--it might go off great and make someone look like a hero, but it's far more likely to go tragically wrong.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #350 on: November 26, 2021, 12:53:19 PM »
it might go off great and make someone look like a hero, but it's far more likely to go tragically wrong.

That would be my general feeling too. Leave it to the 'pros' who are specially trained. There are times when a citizen might have to act, but generally they will have little or no choice (AKA - Terrorism).

As we saw, it only takes one mad prick like Rosenbaum to turn it into a shit show.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

jhkim

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #351 on: November 26, 2021, 12:57:30 PM »
I think people should take some responsibility for what happens around them, and I think it's good for people to be involved in making their communities better - including community policing. However, I also think it can be mishandled. There have been good examples of neighborhood watch and even self-defense, but there are also plenty of abuses.

I haven't followed enough of the details to have an opinion in either of the court cases, but do others here have an opinion on the Ahmaud Arbery trial?

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #352 on: November 26, 2021, 01:06:03 PM »
but there are also plenty of abuses.

You call the police... Unless, your life depends on it, and you don't have time to wait for them.

But didn't you guys have a couple of cases where black guys were killed by 'concerned citizens'. With no real justification for doing so? Of course, I don't know the full facts of the cases to be fair - that's just the headline. So, I could be wrong.

But if they did indeed kill someone, without proper justification, then they should be locked away for a very very long time.




"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

Pat

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #353 on: November 26, 2021, 01:07:55 PM »
From a 'personal protection' point of view, and as a self-defense instructor. I still maintain that you're always better off not going into a hostile environment, even if you are legally entitled to. Property can be replaced but you can't.
The police in Kenosha are firm believers in your principles.

I put my own safety far above somebody else's property... Mind you, I also believe in 'hard policing' for law breakers. And if you're out rioting while damaging property the Police should be in there fast and cracking skulls while making arrests. You've got a right to protest peacefully. Go beyond that, then FU!
I think the police were much better off since they decided not to go into a hostile environment and break skulls, even though they were legally entitled to.

Of course, they are paid professionals.... And that's their job. So, slight difference there. LOL.

But feel free to defend someone else's property. Enjoy! I'll watch it on the TV.
I think the "it's someone else's job" syndrome is one of the fundamental problems with the modern world. If nobody takes personal responsibility when something bad happens, then adults are turned into the moral equivalents of children.
Modern society requires this to varying degrees. "When something bad happens" it often takes specialized skills to do more good than harm, and this can apply for stopping crime, dealing with medical emergencies, rescuing people from disasters (including structure fires) and more. That's not to say that there aren't some basic steps the average person can take to help others in many situations, but vigilantes are about as beneficial as a bystander trying to to run I to a burning buying to rescue trapped people--it might go off great and make someone look like a hero, but it's far more likely to go tragically wrong.
It takes time for police, the fire department, and EMS to respond, especially outside a large city. And those first hours, minutes, or even seconds are often critical. If people don't step in to stop or stabilize the situation, things can get worse. There are skills involved, but that's a problem with education not the concept. People should be able to recognize and react calmly to a deadly situation like a shooting, understand the dangers of smoke inhalation, know how to test a door to see if there's a fire on the other side, treat a wound, be able to read a contract, recognize the symptoms of a stroke or heart attack, or help a woman give birth to a baby. These are basic skills, that should be part of the minimum expectation for an independent adult. Yet how many people today have current first aid training, much less the relatively modest commitment required to become an EMT? The lack of these skills, training, and the expectation of responsibility is how we end up with things like school shooters with high body counts, hijackers taking down skyscrapers, women being raped in a train while everyone watches, and more broadly the infantalism of civic responsibility. It's also aided and abetted the growth of a bureaucratic state of experts, who can't be reasonably checked without an informed, engaged, and responsible electorate.

Pat

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #354 on: November 26, 2021, 01:08:49 PM »
But if they did indeed kill someone, without proper justification, then they should be locked away for a very very long time.
Be nice if that applied to police and rioters of both political wings.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #355 on: November 26, 2021, 01:14:13 PM »
But if they did indeed kill someone, without proper justification, then they should be locked away for a very very long time.
Be nice if that applied to police and rioters of both political wings.

All punishment 'should' be equal under the law...
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

HappyDaze

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #356 on: November 26, 2021, 01:16:32 PM »
From a 'personal protection' point of view, and as a self-defense instructor. I still maintain that you're always better off not going into a hostile environment, even if you are legally entitled to. Property can be replaced but you can't.
The police in Kenosha are firm believers in your principles.

I put my own safety far above somebody else's property... Mind you, I also believe in 'hard policing' for law breakers. And if you're out rioting while damaging property the Police should be in there fast and cracking skulls while making arrests. You've got a right to protest peacefully. Go beyond that, then FU!
I think the police were much better off since they decided not to go into a hostile environment and break skulls, even though they were legally entitled to.

Of course, they are paid professionals.... And that's their job. So, slight difference there. LOL.

But feel free to defend someone else's property. Enjoy! I'll watch it on the TV.
I think the "it's someone else's job" syndrome is one of the fundamental problems with the modern world. If nobody takes personal responsibility when something bad happens, then adults are turned into the moral equivalents of children.
Modern society requires this to varying degrees. "When something bad happens" it often takes specialized skills to do more good than harm, and this can apply for stopping crime, dealing with medical emergencies, rescuing people from disasters (including structure fires) and more. That's not to say that there aren't some basic steps the average person can take to help others in many situations, but vigilantes are about as beneficial as a bystander trying to to run I to a burning buying to rescue trapped people--it might go off great and make someone look like a hero, but it's far more likely to go tragically wrong.
It takes time for police, the fire department, and EMS to respond, especially outside a large city. And those first hours, minutes, or even seconds are often critical. If people don't step in to stop or stabilize the situation, things can get worse. There are skills involved, but that's a problem with education not the concept. People should be able to recognize and react calmly to a deadly situation like a shooting, understand the dangers of smoke inhalation, know how to test a door to see if there's a fire on the other side, treat a wound, be able to read a contract, recognize the symptoms of a stroke or heart attack, or help a woman give birth to a baby. These are basic skills, that should be part of the minimum expectation for an independent adult. Yet how many people today have current first aid training, much less the relatively modest commitment required to become an EMT? The lack of these skills, training, and the expectation of responsibility is how we end up with things like school shooters with high body counts, hijackers taking down skyscrapers, women being raped in a train while everyone watches, and more broadly the infantalism of civic responsibility. It's also aided and abetted the growth of a bureaucratic state of experts, who can't be reasonably checked without an informed, engaged, and responsible electorate.
I agree on the basic part of first aid being a necessity,  and I often lament the lack of attention people spend on it. I've seen patients walk in with an open wound dripping blood and I wonder how they got so far without even covering it and applying pressure. However, that "modest commitment to become.an EMT" is deceptive. Becoming an EMT only says you're qualified to start practicing those skills, and without considerable practice, the introduction to those skills can lead to people trying stupid stuff thats well beyond their capabilities. Again, sometimes they get to look like a hero, but more often it goes to shit.

Pat

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #357 on: November 26, 2021, 01:27:17 PM »
I agree on the basic part of first aid being a necessity,  and I often lament the lack of attention people spend on it. I've seen patients walk in with an open wound dripping blood and I wonder how they got so far without even covering it and applying pressure. However, that "modest commitment to become.an EMT" is deceptive. Becoming an EMT only says you're qualified to start practicing those skills, and without considerable practice, the introduction to those skills can lead to people trying stupid stuff thats well beyond their capabilities. Again, sometimes they get to look like a hero, but more often it goes to shit.
From my experience, that seems to be more the cowboy mentality that's often attracted to first responder jobs. I know some fire chiefs who talk about rookies pulling stunts like beating the chief back the station after a call, and how they came down on them like a ton of bricks. (For those who don't know, driving a vehicle with flashing lights isn't a license to floor it and run through lights at will. You're supposed to stop, and then cautiously go through. Getting in an accident helps nobody.) Similar stories from police and paramedics.

oggsmash

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #358 on: November 26, 2021, 03:25:50 PM »
I think people should take some responsibility for what happens around them, and I think it's good for people to be involved in making their communities better - including community policing. However, I also think it can be mishandled. There have been good examples of neighborhood watch and even self-defense, but there are also plenty of abuses.

I haven't followed enough of the details to have an opinion in either of the court cases, but do others here have an opinion on the Ahmaud Arbery trial?

Use the N word on tape and your ass gets convicted no matter what.   To my eyes I thought they should never have chased the dude and confronted him, tracking and calling police seemed a better idea.  That said, the break ins in the community are no longer a problem, and a guy who we know was a complete shit stain on society is removed from the gene pool before he graduated to killing someone, and three racist red necks are in prison.  I would call it a massive societal win.

Ratman_tf

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Re: So, how about that Rittenhouse trial?
« Reply #359 on: November 26, 2021, 03:50:11 PM »
From a 'personal protection' point of view, and as a self-defense instructor. I still maintain that you're always better off not going into a hostile environment, even if you are legally entitled to. Property can be replaced but you can't.
The police in Kenosha are firm believers in your principles.

That's the thing. Under "normal" circumstances, I'd say let the cops handle things. They're trained to, and it helps prevent mob justice and hotheads from doing crazy shit.

But we left "normal" circumstances behind years ago. The police are instructed to let the rioters burn and loot. Civilians are forced to choose whether to hide in their basements until the mob passes over them, or try to protect their livelyhood.

This is going to get worse before it gets better.
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