TheRPGSite

For the third printing of S&W, a genderqueer lead was hired, and assembled an all-female design team. Art is changed. Iconic characters changed. etc.

Whereas, according to Mearls, 5e had an almost entirely female visual team (and, in the PHB, the now-famous homosexual/transgender paragraphs), S&W has one-upped them and gone all female:

http://www.frivology.com/blog/2016/swords-wizardry-3rd-printing-whats-on-the-cover
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/froggodgames/swords-and-wizardry-complete-rulebook-3rd-printing

"Unfortunately, we think there may be some controversy about the fact that the design team here is made up entirely of women. We’ve already heard a couple of comments that generally turn on the idea of “Why restrict the project to women designers? Shouldn’t the objective be to pull the best talent whether male or female? What a gimmick.” We’d like to address that out front, rather than have it turn into a back-channel controversy in the halls of the internet. The missing piece of information is this: there are so many different directions that a project can take that there’s no such thing as “the best talent.” Given our goal of making the game more accessible, we hired – through Stacy – talent that coordinates with the goal. We asked Stacy to put together an all-woman team not as a societal goal, but because she had the chops to assemble the kind of team we wanted. This isn’t a “pink” edition of the rules. It’s the more-accessible next printing that we are targeting toward the mainstream market. It has always been our goal to get the open-ended rules of 1974-78 gaming into the mainstream, and this is our objective here. We think that Stacy’s team has hit this goal out of the ballpark, and we think you’ll agree."

... what a joke. Who believes this?

D&D. WW. Mythmere/Frog God. All cuckolded.

What game companies are free of this SJW infestation?

Who is left?

How do I avoid these male-feminist game designers?

Is Palladium safe?

Man, how fragile of a snowflake do you need to be for women to threaten you this much?

I asked this much more politely (I wouldn't even say WoTC meets the criteria for SJW-ness), and had my thread locked. So good luck. :\

Boobs terrify another male Grognard. Again. News at 11.

Yep. Just another snowflake rant. Nothing to see here. Move on.

The nanosecond anyone uses the word "Cuck" or "Cuckold" on anything other than a porn board they become a pathetic joke to be laughed at or ignored by normal people.

Hey 1989, long time no see! How's life treating you? Did you get your hands on that sweet Mystara Gazeteers bundle deal on DrivethruRPG? :)

There are a hell of a lot of cucks in the hobby. They enable and idolize SJWs (what choice do they have, if they want to keep their jobs). The guy designing Starfinder. It's a giant turdburger. Then there's Adam Koebel. Total queer.

I still like the cover art, but it makes no sense for S&W (or most any corebook). It still tells us nothing about the game other than "here's a weird thing" and maybe that's okay for a monster book. The interior borders are good, but most of the interior art is definitely no big deal. The whole thing reeks of a PC publicity stunt. It especially reeks of a shakedown considering Stacy did her "Why does the OSR hate women?" dance before getting the S&W gig. But hey, its just another book on the pile.

Quote from: 1989;968364What game companies are free of this SJW infestation?

Independents?

Quote from: 1989;968364How do I avoid these male-feminist game designers?

By not buying their products?

Quote from: 1989;968364Is Palladium safe?

Probably, but only because Palladium has a long history of strong female heroes in their settings. Kevin's main hero in Rifts is Erin Tarn, an old librarian. The leader of NEMA in Chaos Earth is also female.

If the final product openly spews gall over straight white men or otherwise looks like it was made by actual SJWs - as opposed to the all-too-frequent definition of SJWs as "anyone who isn't 100% pristinely non-progressive" - then I'll join you in your outrage. Or, well, I won't, because I try to stay away from outrage, but I'll certainly roll my eyes at the resulting mess in a way that is broadly sympathetic to you.

Until that turns out to be the case - and it normally doesn't turn out to be the case; even people who genuinely have crazy opinions are usually able to keep them out of their professional work, and we're not taking about hardcore feminists here, we're talking about regular, standard-issue female game designers - you are whining. Please do cut that out.

FWIW when I re-asked this question (non-SJW publishers/writers/games) off site I got response including the following:

Palladium Books.
The RPGPundit. Dark Albion, , Arrows of Indra, Forward To Adventure, GnomeMurdered.
Postmortem Studios.
Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, Adventure, Conqueror, King, OSRIC

I think there's a lot more than that, personally. Really I'm less interested in active anti-SJWS like Pundit & Grim, more in simple non-SJWs who may well be left-liberal themselves but don't give credence to SJW demands or shakedowns. I really hope that still includes a very substantial part of the RPG industry.

Theres a big difference between having a little inclucivity in your product and using it as pretentiousness or worse yet just a marketing gag. Its the those last two that piss some of us off.

And personally that does both ways. All female pronoun? All male pronoun? All herm pronoun? Sloppy damn writing (if it isnt a valid factor of the game) and Im going to call you out on it if I spot it.

Having an all female artist crew? Ok? Nothing new to that. Crowing it as a marketing gag is not ok.

On balance, I quite like women.

Sorry.

Quote from: Baeraad;968430If the final product openly spews gall over straight white men or otherwise looks like it was made by actual SJWs - as opposed to the all-too-frequent definition of SJWs as "anyone who isn't 100% pristinely non-progressive" - then I'll join you in your outrage. Or, well, I won't, because I try to stay away from outrage, but I'll certainly roll my eyes at the resulting mess in a way that is broadly sympathetic to you.

I cant think of any. Even the one Gumshoe book wasnt offensive about it. Just annoying.
And no. Macho Women With Guns doesnt count. Its a skirmish game originally and wall to wall parody of everything.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968437On balance, I quite like women.

Sorry.

Untill they flip out try to kill you with a pair of scissors...

Pendragon?

Quote from: S'mon;968435FWIW when I re-asked this question (non-SJW publishers/writers/games) off site I got response including the following:

Palladium Books.
The RPGPundit. Dark Albion, , Arrows of Indra, Forward To Adventure, GnomeMurdered.
Postmortem Studios.
Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, Adventure, Conqueror, King, OSRIC

I think there's a lot more than that, personally. Really I'm less interested in active anti-SJWS like Pundit & Grim, more in simple non-SJWs who may well be left-liberal themselves but don't give credence to SJW demands or shakedowns. I really hope that still includes a very substantial part of the RPG industry.

Pendragon?

Quote from: 1989;968364D&D. WW. Mythmere/Frog God. All cuckolded.

(snip)

Is Palladium safe?

"I used to cheat on my husband four or five times a week.  I'd look at him playing D&D and think 'what a baby penis'.  But ever since he switched to Rifts, he's been different.  More powerful.  More virile.  More... of a man.  Thanks Palladium Books, for helping me beat my adulterous addiction to black cock."

Yeah, I'm not seeing it.

Another SGW.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;968367Man, how fragile of a snowflake do you need to be for women to threaten you this much?

My money is on "Got beat up by a girl in grade school and still hasn't lived it down".

Going through life hating over half the world's population is pitiful.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;968367Man, how fragile of a snowflake do you need to be for women to threaten you this much?

He's one of many. The irony of all this is how pissed off they get about politicizing gaming, while they -- DING! -- politicize gaming. Of course, the big, scary SJW's are to blame for their responses. Nothing like a ready-made scapegoat.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;968419The nanosecond anyone uses the word "Cuck" or "Cuckold" on anything other than a porn board they become a pathetic joke to be laughed at or ignored by normal people.

Amen. It's also a symptom of micropenis.

I've got no problem with the cover art. Looks quite cool. Really have no problem with an all female team.  Is it a marketing gag? Perhaps, since they're touting it as if it's momentous in some way...maybe it is.  

I am, however, dubious about the slight suggestion that an all female team is somehow what will make mainstream audiences suddenly flock to the hobby, let alone to that specific game. But if it does, then I'll gladly eat crow.

I like the 3rd printing of S&W.  The art is good, layout is good.  I will agree with folks that the cover doesn't convey to me what the game is about, but it's a pretty sweet piece aside from that.  I don't get what the fear and hate is about.

Quote from: S'mon;968435FWIW when I re-asked this question (non-SJW publishers/writers/games) off site I got response including the following:

Palladium Books.
The RPGPundit. Dark Albion, , Arrows of Indra, Forward To Adventure, GnomeMurdered.
Postmortem Studios.
Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, Adventure, Conqueror, King, OSRIC

I think there's a lot more than that, personally. Really I'm less interested in active anti-SJWS like Pundit & Grim, more in simple non-SJWs who may well be left-liberal themselves but don't give credence to SJW demands or shakedowns. I really hope that still includes a very substantial part of the RPG industry.

Thanks for this.

Which systems have you been using lately?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;968467I've got no problem with the cover art. Looks quite cool. Really have no problem with an all female team.  Is it a marketing gag? Perhaps, since they're touting it as if it's momentous in some way...maybe it is.  

I am, however, dubious about the slight suggestion that an all female team is somehow what will make mainstream audiences suddenly flock to the hobby, let alone to that specific game. But if it does, then I'll gladly eat crow.

Agree. Personally i am indifferent to the news. Most women don't care about the hobby anyway which is hardly surprising but there are some exceptions, to me it looks more like a marketing trick. I don't care who writes as long as what he writes is good.

Quote from: 1989;968471Thanks for this.

Which systems have you been using lately?

Me?

Oh - 5e D&D (WotC are left-liberal, not SJW) with Paizo material from 2012 and earlier (they were always left-liberal, they only went Full SJW late 2012, around the Obama re-election and associated hysteria). 5e D&D with Dyson Logos (non-SJW OSR publisher) stuff.
4e D&D (WotC, likewise). Mentzer Classic BECM/RC D&D with the old Mystara GAZes and Basic Fantasy adventures.

Recent purchases are mostly OSR - Dan Proctor's Apes Victorious. White Star. Operation: Whitebox.

OK Swords & Wizardry got the old Jesse Jackson shakedown from Stacy "Why does the OSR hate women?" Dellaforno, and have now put out an SJW edition. But I don't think that taints authors using S&W as the chassis for their own games.

I also don't think that WoTC having 100% female artists or typesetters or whatever makes them SJW, even if they boast about it. It's only 'problematic' if they consciously refuse to hire men/whites/straights whatever, and I've seen no evidence of that. I don't believe in 'disparate impact'; there are jobs women like doing more than men, and vice-versa.

I live in London, so most of my players are left-liberals. Obviously they hear a lot of SJW crap and it does influence them (or at least their Facebook posting*), but these are not bad people and I wouldn 't want to avoid playing with them. Even right-wing people say stupid things now and again. :D Likewise with games & authors, I think it's really important to distinguish some well-meaning guy, who happens to be a Seattle liberal, from SJWs, Antifa and other such banes on humanity.

*A lot of people are defensively conformist, women especially. I have a female friend who I recall posted a very sensible, insightful post about male/female difference (I think it was re romance) and received a lot of abuse from her SJW 'friends'. Now she only posts left-liberal boilerplate. I have a female work colleague who is pretty darn 'based' in private, but on Facebook is all 'refugees welcome!' So I believe in cutting people some slack. In an age of lies, speaking truth (without anonymity) is an heroic act. And most people are not heroes.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;968419The nanosecond anyone uses the word "Cuck" or "Cuckold" on anything other than a porn board they become a pathetic joke to be laughed at or ignored by normal people.

Now, in all fairness it could be a board dedicated to channeling Victorians through a Ouija board.  But the sign that's happening also involves a lot of talk of corsets and whether that scamp Conan Doyle ever brought back Sherlock Holmes.

Quote from: san dee jota;968449"I used to cheat on my husband four or five times a week.  I'd look at him playing D&D and think 'what a baby penis'.  But ever since he switched to Rifts, he's been different.  More powerful.  More virile.  More... of a man.  Thanks Palladium Books, for helping me beat my adulterous addiction to black cock."

Yeah, I'm not seeing it.

"Now he brings the Mega Damage in the bedroom, if you know what I mean..."

I can't decide if this is

• Deja Vu
• A flashback
• A stroke
• I'm doing the Time Warp again.

S&W looks like a marketing trick, so what? If the game is good, then the game is good. I think that John Scalzi is a complete off-the-rails libtard, but I like what he writes when he writes fiction. It is possible to like the product without liking the producers of that product.

Quote from: jeff37923;968478S&W looks like a marketing trick, so what? If the game is good, then the game is good. I think that John Scalzi is a complete off-the-rails libtard, but I like what he writes when he writes fiction. It is possible to like the product without liking the producers of that product.

But how do you feel about Zak S?










Sorry.  Sorry.  I'll get my hat.

>

QuoteS&W looks like a marketing trick, so what? If the game is good, then the game is good. I think that John Scalzi is a complete off-the-rails libtard, but I like what he writes when he writes fiction. It is possible to like the product without liking the producers of that product.

It just rubs me the wrong way. Don't want to support this. Spend my money elsewhere.

I don't care who writes what as long as I like what they write.

The more I learn about both sides of this SJW rubbish the more I see it as an annoying distraction from gaming and actual game related conversations. The irony that I'm again posting on such a thread is not lost on me :eek:

Quote from: HorusArisen;968481I don't care who writes what as long as I like what they write.

The more I learn about both sides of this SJW rubbish the more I see it as an annoying distraction from gaming and actual game related conversations. The irony that I'm again posting on such a thread is not lost on me :eek:

The more of this shit you buy, the more they will be emboldened, and the more it will be explicitly pushed in your face, until you're facing the equivalent of DisneyLand Gay Days. Look at Paizo!

Give an inch. Take a mile. It's always like this.

Quote from: S'mon;968473Me?

Oh - 5e D&D (WotC are left-liberal, not SJW) with Paizo material from 2012 and earlier (they were always left-liberal, they only went Full SJW late 2012, around the Obama re-election and associated hysteria). 5e D&D with Dyson Logos (non-SJW OSR publisher) stuff.
4e D&D (WotC, likewise). Mentzer Classic BECM/RC D&D with the old Mystara GAZes and Basic Fantasy adventures.

Recent purchases are mostly OSR - Dan Proctor's Apes Victorious. White Star. Operation: Whitebox.

OK Swords & Wizardry got the old Jesse Jackson shakedown from Stacy "Why does the OSR hate women?" Dellaforno, and have now put out an SJW edition. But I don't think that taints authors using S&W as the chassis for their own games.

I also don't think that WoTC having 100% female artists or typesetters or whatever makes them SJW, even if they boast about it. It's only 'problematic' if they consciously refuse to hire men/whites/straights whatever, and I've seen no evidence of that. I don't believe in 'disparate impact'; there are jobs women like doing more than men, and vice-versa.

I live in London, so most of my players are left-liberals. Obviously they hear a lot of SJW crap and it does influence them (or at least their Facebook posting*), but these are not bad people and I wouldn 't want to avoid playing with them. Even right-wing people say stupid things now and again. :D Likewise with games & authors, I think it's really important to distinguish some well-meaning guy, who happens to be a Seattle liberal, from SJWs, Antifa and other such banes on humanity.

*A lot of people are defensively conformist, women especially. I have a female friend who I recall posted a very sensible, insightful post about male/female difference (I think it was re romance) and received a lot of abuse from her SJW 'friends'. Now she only posts left-liberal boilerplate. I have a female work colleague who is pretty darn 'based' in private, but on Facebook is all 'refugees welcome!' So I believe in cutting people some slack. In an age of lies, speaking truth (without anonymity) is an heroic act. And most people are not heroes.

Wow, there were three more replies before I even finished editing my post... :eek:  (I just found a note through the front door from the guy who delivered my food last week, he saw my D&D collection & wants to join my game! I sent him a text.)

Anyway 1989, above quote is my definitive response. :)

The nice thing about RPGs is that it's very difficult to make them more political than the group wants them to be. Even with Paizo (apparently) being SJW-run now, there is nothing in the Pathfinder rules stopping you from running a campaign based on liberating a golden-helmed demigod from his infernal prison to destroy the legions of orc refugees ruining the elves' fair land.

Quote from: 1989;968482The more of this shit you buy, the more they will be emboldened, and the more it will be explicitly pushed in your face, until you're facing the equivalent of DisneyLand Gay Days. Look at Paizo!

Yeah, Paizo went from nice Seattle liberals 2007-2011 (about where WotC is now), to Full SJW by the end of 2012. Maybe if there had been a concerted customer pushback things would have gone differently. I doubt the typical Pathfinder number-cruncher char-op guy is really a committed SJW...

Quote from: 1989;968482The more of this shit you buy, the more they will be emboldened, and the more it will be explicitly pushed in your face, until you're facing the equivalent of DisneyLand Gay Days. Look at Paizo!

Give an inch. Take a mile. It's always like this.

True, so don't buy them. The same thing that you describe is happening with video games *cough* Mass Effect *cough* they let some idiots loose and they fucked up the franchise.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;968484The nice thing about RPGs is that it's very difficult to make them more political than the group wants them to be. Even with Paizo (apparently) being SJW-run now, there is nothing in the Pathfinder rules stopping you from running a campaign based on liberating a golden-helmed demigod from his infernal prison to destroy the legions of orc refugees ruining the elves' fair land.

Well I think games like MYFAROG or Blue Rose probably have their politics boiled in (I haven't read either & don't intend to, but that's certainly the impression I get). But yes there are lots of games from SJW publishers that are not inherently political. Pathfinder certainly. Even with setting-specific games, often. I rem being lent 'Spirit of the Century' by one of my more hard-left players - I expected it to be at least as strongly hard-Leftist as an Alan Moore comic (V for Vendetta*, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen** etc) but really it was quite bland. A lot of games are like that. Gygaxian D&D has a bit of a Right-Libertarian tone but you certainly don't need to play it that way.

*Incredibly boring
**I quite liked this one!

Quote from: John Scott;968486True, so don't buy them.

This^^

Cost of product is also a factor. I think that the paragraph in D&D5E was ham-fisted and unnecessary, so I do not give WotC my money, but I have downloaded and played with their free rules. GenCon is not getting my money or attendance because of their choice to go political. Scalzi gets a pass, because an $8 mass market paperback is a magnitude or several smaller than the +/- $150 cost for the D&D5E books or the +/- $1000 minimum that I would have to spend on GenCon.

Quote from: jeff37923;968478S&W looks like a marketing trick, so what? If the game is good, then the game is good. I think that John Scalzi is a complete off-the-rails libtard, but I like what he writes when he writes fiction. It is possible to like the product without liking the producers of that product.

I agree completely except I would change Scalzi for Pundit and Ringo, and 'liking the producers of a product' to 'liking the politics of the producers.'

I think if we met in person I would get along well with a number of people on here.

Quote from: jeff37923;968489This^^

Cost of product is also a factor. I think that the paragraph in D&D5E was ham-fisted and unnecessary, so I do not give WotC my money

I think (from a conservative-ish perspective) that that's an over-reaction to a pretty mild statement, even if they were pandering (and they got as much flak from SJWs as from the Right). I respect your decision but I'm more interested in WoTC not going full-SJW, and I fear the withdrawing of all non-leftist $ at this stage would be more likely to have that effect. Whereas for me Paizo crossed the line with "Erastil can't be Patriarchal, because Patriarchy can't be Good*", and I guess the transgender Iconic Dwarf, though that's mostly just idiotic.
But YMMV.

*A more extreme position than Blue Rose I believe - AFAIK supporters of the rival patriarchal nation in BR can be Good-aligned. Like the Tash-worshipping Calorman in CS Lewis' The Last Battle who ends up in Aslan's Heaven in spite of himself.

Quote from: S'mon;968493I think (from a conservative-ish perspective) that that's an over-reaction to a pretty mild statement, even if they were pandering (and they got as much flak from SJWs as from the Right). I respect your decision but I'm more interested in WoTC not going full-SJW, and I fear the withdrawing of all non-leftist $ at this stage would be more likely to have that effect. Whereas for me Paizo crossed the line with "Erastil can't be Patriarchal, because Patriarchy can't be Good*", and I guess the transgender Iconic Dwarf, though that's mostly just idiotic.
But YMMV.

*A more extreme position than Blue Rose I believe - AFAIK supporters of the rival patriarchal nation in BR can be Good-aligned. Like the Tash-worshipping Calorman in CS Lewis' The Last Battle who ends up in Aslan's Heaven in spite of himself.

I should have added that I also felt pretty burnt from the flop that was D&D 4E, but I get your point. It does look like an over-reaction.

Quote from: S'mon;968483Wow, there were three more replies before I even finished editing my post... :eek:  (I just found a note through the front door from the guy who delivered my food last week, he saw my D&D collection & wants to join my game! I sent him a text.)

Anyway 1989, above quote is my definitive response. :)

I am not so charitable as you. I don't believe for a minute that it "just happened" that the visual team ended up almost entirely female. That did not "just happen". When you look at the % of men vs women in the hobby of RPGs, the chance of it "just happening" that you get an essentially all-female visual team ... yeah ... no.

If the authors using S&W for their products would simply refuse to use it, we might eventually see change.

But the outrage hasn't reached critical peak. And D&D5e is selling very well.

Makes me feel I should just give up on RPGs, now that all the major commerical publishers are basically SJW-infested, leaving only small-time operations/POD.

Quote from: Headless;968492I agree completely except I would change Scalzi for Pundit and Ringo, and 'liking the producers of a product' to 'liking the politics of the producers.'

The problem here is that I have read John Scalzi's material including the libtarded stuff (which is why I know to disagree), while I sincerely doubt that you have read any of the writings of RPGPundit (besides blog posts and posts here) or John Ringo. Especially since the last time I brought up John Ringo you had an absolutely visceral knee-jerk reaction. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35263-Cultural-Appropriation-is-the-BEST!!/page7)

Quote from: Headless;968492I think if we met in person I would get along well with a number of people on here.

I have my doubts. It has been my experience that what you see is what you get.

Quote from: 1989;968482The more of this shit you buy, the more they will be emboldened, and the more it will be explicitly pushed in your face, until you're facing the equivalent of DisneyLand Gay Days. Look at Paizo!

Give an inch. Take a mile. It's always like this.

Just don't buy Paizo

Also what's a Disneyland gay day?

Quote from: 1989;968497I am not so charitable as you. I don't believe for a minute that it "just happened" that the visual team ended up almost entirely female. That did not "just happen". When you look at the % of men vs women in the hobby of RPGs, the chance of it "just happening" that you get an essentially all-female visual team ... yeah ... no.

But we're not talking the RPG hobby here, we're talking salaried publishing employees. And some areas have always been female dominated. Not illustration, admittedly, and for all I know you may be right. I do think the 5e art is pretty bland but I like it better than 3e personally (sorry Todd Lockwood, I really can't stand your stuff!).

Quote from: HorusArisen;968499Just don't buy Paizo

Also what's a Disneyland gay day?

D&D will eventually end up like Pathfinder in terms of SJW nonsense. Just a slower, more careful pace.

You'll have to google DisneyLand Gay Days and find out ...

This is one of the reasons I won't be taking my son to DisneyLand.

Quote from: 1989;968502D&D will eventually end up like Pathfinder in terms of SJW nonsense. Just a slower, more careful pace.

You'll have to google DisneyLand Gay Days and find out ...

Just don't play D&D, other games exist.

So it's an unofficial event day, whys that a problem? As long as I'm not banned from going if I want to, which is unlikely since apparently it adds another 30k people to the crowd I couldn't care less. I'd organise a Disneyland Welsh day if I could find enough of us left.

Quote from: 1989;968482The more of this shit you buy, the more they will be emboldened, and the more it will be explicitly pushed in your face, until you're facing the equivalent of DisneyLand Gay Days. Look at Paizo!

Give an inch. Take a mile. It's always like this.

Can't tell if trolling or just Stormfront.

But seriously, I think you're overreacting to this all. Onyx Path is SJW-run, and Paizo has some issues, but everything else is just fine. At this point, you're dancing in the territory of Dale Gribble and Alex Jones. Lol, calm down and everything will be fine. Outside of Onyx Path and Big Purple, the SJW's really don't have that much influence in RPG's. WOTC is a little liberal, but so am I.

I'm an old-school Tammany Hall Union Democrat. I believe in what the Left used to stand for, hence why I hate SJW's so much. But you don't see me complaining about D&D 5e. My great-grandmother was a Civil Rights activist in West Virginia during the 1950's and 1960's, and my great-grandfather was a hard-working coal miner and a proud member of the United Mine Workers of America who voted in favor of workers' rights and the unions. The SJW's have them both rolling in their graves.

Just avoid Blue Rose and Onyx Path's output and you should be fine. But if you are so intimidated by women in RPG's and think anything to the left of Cotton Mather and Jack Chick is "SJW", then maybe you should put on a tinfoil hat and play MYFAROG.

Quote from: 1989;968364What game companies are free of this SJW infestation?

Who is left?

How do I avoid these male-feminist game designers?

Is Palladium safe?

The problem is that the only opinion that matters in the world is the one that is preceded by dollar signs. No amount of angry men will have any influence on how I spend the money that I work for no matter how many clouds they yell at. They can bandy about whatever fancy slurs they like to dehumanize the people they don't like and it doesn't matter because money talks and anything else is noise. People are going to spend THEIR money however the hell they want, that's how capitalism works. If the people you don't like have enough money to keep producing material you don't like, then there's not much you can do about it aside from trying harder to not get offended so easily.

Quote from: HorusArisen;968503Just don't play D&D, other games exist.

So it's an unofficial event day, whys that a problem? As long as I'm not banned from going if I want to, which is unlikely since apparently it adds another 30k people to the crowd I couldn't care less. I'd organise a Disneyland Welsh day if I could find enough of us left.

The problem is that your kids are going to see this nonsense, and Disney supports it by letting it happen.

"Pete Werner, openly gay founder of Disney fan-site WDWInfo, has called the event "disgraceful". Werner's criticism mainly derived from the public displays of affection by the attendees in full view of families"

Just like the disgusting Pride Parades in Canada.

Quote from: CRKrueger;968476I can't decide if this is

• Deja Vu
• A flashback
• A stroke
• I'm doing the Time Warp again.

It's usually from doing the Time Warp again. And, I mean really, who wouldn't want to do that all over again? :)

Quote from: 1989;968502D&D will eventually end up like Pathfinder in terms of SJW nonsense. Just a slower, more careful pace.

You'll have to google DisneyLand Gay Days and find out ...

This is one of the reasons I won't be taking my son to DisneyLand.

At this point you're sounding like someone who takes Chick Tracts seriously. Don't be a Puritan, bro. Nothing wrong with gays or lesbians at Disneyland. If the park wants to give them a discount, so what? Gay people are people too, and as far as I know, there's nothing wrong with one day in the year where they get a discount.

Complaining about gay people at Disneyland is some serious Jack Chick/Westboro Baptist Church bullshit and the fact that you wouldn't take your kid to a theme park just because one day a year, they give gays and lesbians a discount makes you come across as a Bible-thumping Alt-Right Neo-Puritan douchebag.

Also, bear in mind that I am a bisexual male, a Classical Pagan who worships the Roman Gods and Goddesses (and generally has a low opinion on most things Judeo-Christian), and I support socialized healthcare, and equal pay for equal work. I have a feeling that some, if not all of these things about me probably offend and disgust you and so maybe I should stop lecturing now.

EDIT-Also, a public display of affection is okay. People do it all the time. So what if a gay guy kisses his boyfriend or holds his hand at Disneyland? It's not like they're having sex in front of everybody. Take a chill pill, bro.

Quote from: 1989;968507The problem is that your kids are going to see this nonsense, and Disney supports it by letting it happen.

"Pete Werner, openly gay founder of Disney fan-site WDWInfo, has called the event "disgraceful". Werner's criticism mainly derived from the public displays of affection by the attendees in full view of families"

Just like the disgusting Pride Parades in Canada.

What's wrong with PDA I kiss my wife in public all the time. I'm not prudish.

As to pride days they're annoying because I don't like large crowds but nobody seems upset by Mardi Gras. Which is how I know I don't like large crowds lol.

Quote from: 1989;968507The problem is that your kids are going to see this nonsense, and Disney supports it by letting it happen.

"Pete Werner, openly gay founder of Disney fan-site WDWInfo, has called the event "disgraceful". Werner's criticism mainly derived from the public displays of affection by the attendees in full view of families"

Just like the disgusting Pride Parades in Canada.

Yeah, I don't get why (sane) left-liberals conflate equal rights for their perfectly decent homosexual-couple friends, with simulated buttfucking in Gay Pride parades, extreme promiscuity, and other characteristics of the (male) Gay supposed-Community. None of my gay male friends are into that stuff. Of the people I know who *are* into it, it seems to be mostly (a) local Labour politicians and (b) the administrators at my work, who have had an ad for a Gay Cruising site up in their mens' toilets for years.

There's a simple test: if it's not ok for straights, it's not ok for gays. That goes for the simulated buttfucking in the Pride parades, too. Plenty of gay male activists have spoken out against this stuff, yet it retains the imprimatur of moral approval from the Liberal-Left.

Quote from: HorusArisen;968511What's wrong with PDA I kiss my wife in public all the time. I'm not prudish.

As to pride days they're annoying because I don't like large crowds but nobody seems upset by Mardi Gras. Which is how I know I don't like large crowds lol.

This guy gets it.

At this point, 1989 is either trolling or just some reject from one of the following: /pol/, Stormfront, Chick Publications, or Westboro Baptist Church.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968509At this point you're sounding like someone who takes Chick Tracts seriously. Don't be a Puritan, bro. Nothing wrong with gays or lesbians at Disneyland. If the park wants to give them a discount, so what? Gay people are people too, and as far as I know, there's nothing wrong with one day in the year where they get a discount.

Complaining about gay people at Disneyland is some serious Jack Chick/Westboro Baptist Church bullshit and the fact that you wouldn't take your kid to a theme park just because one day a year, they give gays and lesbians a discount makes you come across as a Bible-thumping Alt-Right Neo-Puritan douchebag.

Also, bear in mind that I am a bisexual male, a Classical Pagan who worships the Roman Gods and Goddesses (and generally has a low opinion on most things Judeo-Christian), and I support socialized healthcare, and equal pay for equal work. I have a feeling that some, if not all of these things about me probably offend and disgust you and so maybe I should stop lecturing now.

EDIT-Also, a public display of affection is okay. People do it all the time. So what if a gay guy kisses his boyfriend or holds his hand at Disneyland? It's not like they're having sex in front of everybody. Take a chill pill, bro.

That's fine, but no need to make a Gay Day of it. You're gay/bi. Okay. Keep it to yourself. We don't need Hetero Day, either. Just leave it out. We don't need any parades celebrating any type of sexuality.

Quote from: 1989;968507The problem is that your kids are going to see this nonsense, and Disney supports it by letting it happen.

???

How the hell did we get from "SJWs are ruining my ability to pretend to be an elf because women made the art" to "stop gay pride day at Disneyland!  Think of the children!"

I feel like I'm witnessing the stream of consciousness of a troll, and I can't stop looking....

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968509EDIT-Also, a public display of affection is okay. People do it all the time. So what if a gay guy kisses his boyfriend or holds his hand at Disneyland? It's not like they're having sex in front of everybody.

Well the problem is that they actually do do that. They do stuff straights would get arrested for (at least in Britain; I am not all that familiar with Disneyland Gay Day).

I think it's like Pundit's description of the Furry community, how the sexual perverts drove out the people who just liked anthropomorphic animals. A lack of gatekeeping and something akin to the 'Geek Social Fallacies' gave the worst elements moral-political dominance.

Quote from: 1989;968514That's fine, but no need to make a Gay Day of it. You're gay/bi. Okay. Keep it to yourself. We don't need Hetero Day, either. Just leave it out. We don't need any parades celebrating any type of sexuality.

I've never been to a pride parade ever in my life. Also, LGBT events were once actually important and needed back in the days when the general public hated the LGBT community and there were violent witch-hunts against them, often at the hands of Neo-Puritan thugs who espoused ideology similar to what you are spouting out right now.

While I agree that pride events are somewhat antequated in this day and age, and I do not condone the simulated sex or fetishistic elements at certain events (such as the big pride rallies in California), complaining about gays or bisexuals being open about who they are is sort of hateful and Puritanical.

Don't be a douchebag fundamentalist, please. And I agree that the large pride rallies in places like San Francisco and Portland should cut out that gross sex shit and keep it out of public view. It gives the LGBT community a bad name, and while it may have had a place at one point (I'm not exactly sure when), it's not necessary anymore.

Quote from: S'mon;968487Well I think games like MYFAROG or Blue Rose probably have their politics boiled in (I haven't read either & don't intend to, but that's certainly the impression I get).

Right, and how many people play those? See, the thing is SJW companies inevitably get burned because most people don't want to be preached at all the time. The kind of personality that thrills to seeing everything around him suffused with correct doctrine and virtuous morality plays is and always has been marginal. It's why your average Catholic doesn't even go to Mass every Sunday, let alone takes a vow of celibacy and enters a cloister.

It's analogous to how much ink has been spilled on how Tolkien's Catholicism influenced his Lord of the Rings trilogy, yet if the books had contained some ham-fisted message about THIS IS WHY PROTESTANTS ARE WRONG AND DUMB, I doubt they'd have the enduring appeal they do.

I've seen behaviour at the Cardiff Pride I rolled my eyes at...I've seen the same on a night out from straight and gay couples but whatever, as long as nobody is getting hurt you can make as much of a tit out of yourself as you want.

If you let it bother you or you need to make an issue out of it then you need to ask yourself why it does.

As for pride days,  no different from national days just people celebrating their identities. Just don't attend if it bothers you.

Quote from: san dee jota;968516???

How the hell did we get from "SJWs are ruining my ability to pretend to be an elf because women made the art" to "stop gay pride day at Disneyland!  Think of the children!"

I feel like I'm witnessing the stream of consciousness of a troll, and I can't stop looking....

Lol this. It's oddly fascinating to stare ar 1989's posts and wonder if he's on a wind up or just really really odd

Quote from: HorusArisen;968521I've seen behaviour at the Cardiff Pride I rolled my eyes at...I've seen the same on a night out from straight and gay couples but whatever, as long as nobody is getting hurt you can make as much of a tit out of yourself as you want.

If you let it bother you or you need to make an issue out of it then you need to ask yourself why it does.

As for pride days,  no different from national days just people celebrating their identities. Just don't attend if it bothers you.

This guy gets it.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968519I've never been to a pride parade ever in my life. Also, LGBT events were once actually important and needed back in the days when the general public hated the LGBT community and there were violent witch-hunts against them, often at the hands of Neo-Puritan thugs who espoused ideology similar to what you are spouting out right now.

While I agree that pride events are somewhat antequated in this day and age, and I do not condone the simulated sex or fetishistic elements at certain events (such as the big pride rallies in California), complaining about gays or bisexuals being open about who they are is sort of hateful and Puritanical.

Don't be a douchebag fundamentalist, please. And I agree that the large pride rallies in places like San Francisco and Portland should cut out that gross sex shit and keep it out of public view. It gives the LGBT community a bad name, and while it may have had a place at one point (I'm not exactly sure when), it's not necessary anymore.

This seems like an entirely reasonable position (for a Lefty). Sir, I applaud you. :D

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968524This guy gets it.

Nah I'm just too old to get riled up about stuff :p

Quote from: S'mon;968525This seems like an entirely reasonable position. Sir, I applaud you. :D

I try my best to be reasonable when I can.

So, do you think 1989 is a troll or just some far-right giant douche?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968519While I agree that pride events are somewhat antequated in this day and age, and I do not condone the simulated sex or fetishistic elements at certain events (such as the big pride rallies in California), complaining about gays or bisexuals being open about who they are is sort of hateful and Puritanical.

I don't know if I'd consider them antiquated at all. Same sex couples are still fighting for the right to get married, for example.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968527I try my best to be reasonable when I can.

So, do you think 1989 is a troll or just some far-right giant douche?

I sympathise with his position while not sharing it. I have engaged with plenty of *actual* far-right giant douches online ("Your name is Simon? Clearly you are Hasbara Jew Propagandist Cuck for Israel!" "You say you know high IQ blacks? Lying Marxist Jew-scum!"). 1989 definitely has not said anything to reach that level. If he had done so he'd have been banned under the site's Stormfront policy, so the point is moot.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;968529I don't know if I'd consider them antiquated at all. Same sex couples are still fighting for the right to get married, for example.

True. But if we're talking in terms of acceptance from the general public, we've come a long, long way.

Quote from: S'mon;968530I sympathise with his position while not sharing it. I have engaged with plenty of *actual* far-right giant douches online ("Your name is Simon? Clearly you are Hasbara Jew Propagandist Cuck for Israel!" "You say you know high IQ blacks? Lying Marxist Jew-scum!"). 1989 definitely has not said anything to reach that level. If he had done so he'd have been banned under the site's Stormfront policy, so the point is moot.

Fair point. 1989 is clearly a homophobe though, and you know what they say about homophobes....

But seriously, most people who are as homophobic as 1989 is are usually secretly gay themselves and feel very insecure about themselves.

1989, it's okay if you're gay. Just be happy with who you are and stop wallowing in denial and self-hatred. It's not healthy for you psychologically.

Moving this one to the RPGPundit subforum.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968531True. But if we're talking in terms of acceptance from the general public, we've come a long, long way.

Yes, but we still have a long way to go. GBLT acceptance is making good headway, I agree.

Quote from: jeff37923;968536Yes, but we still have a long way to go. GBLT acceptance is making good headway, I agree.

Agreed

QuoteWhile I agree that pride events are somewhat antequated in this day and age, and I do not condone the simulated sex or fetishistic elements at certain events (such as the big pride rallies in California),

And I agree that the large pride rallies in places like San Francisco and Portland should cut out that gross sex shit and keep it out of public view. It gives the LGBT community a bad name, and while it may have had a place at one point (I'm not exactly sure when), it's not necessary anymore.

I agree with what you're saying here.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968533Fair point. 1989 is clearly a homophobe though, and you know what they say about homophobes....

But seriously, most people who are as homophobic as 1989 is are usually secretly gay themselves and feel very insecure about themselves.

1989, it's okay if you're gay. Just be happy with who you are and stop wallowing in denial and self-hatred. It's not healthy for you psychologically.

Is 1989 a televangelist?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;968553Is 1989 a televangelist?

These days they're waaay more centrist than 1989.  "God -Loves- Gays!  He just hates the gay stuff they do, and really wishes people would stop asking His televangelists what they think about the subject because it can make problems for their financial operations if they support or condemn homosexuality too much."

You know what this feels like? You know when a shopping mall loses its anchor stores (in Canada, that would be The Bay, Sears, etc.), and then the mall just eventually dies a slow death? That's kind of what the RPG industry is like. Major players dying off, or mutating, from the SJW infection.

Quote from: 1989;968562You know what this feels like? You know when a shopping mall loses its anchor stores (in Canada, that would be The Bay, Sears, etc.), and then the mall just eventually dies a slow death? That's kind of what the RPG industry is like. Major players dying off, or mutating, from the SJW infection.

OK, I kind of agree with this....

Not because of 1989's looming threat of The Gay, but because the SJW crowd does not encourage original thinking or critical thinking - especially if it is ideologically suspect. It does not matter to a SJW if a game is playable or even if it is fun for the people who play it. All the SJW crowd cares about is if the game supports the correct rightthink and not badwrongfun, and you cannot be as innovative as you can be under those restrictions.

The games we enjoy? Those are what is under attack. You've heard the complaints. There are not enough minorities in the art. There are not enough women in the art. Orcs are a stand-in for militant blacks. Game writers hate the gender fluid if they do not use the acceptable neutral pronouns. Traveller glorifies capitalism and exploitation. D&D glorifies colonialism and the killing of natives. RPGPundit and Zak S are bigoted misogynists so people should not buy their products.

This has been going on for awhile now.

Quote from: 1989;968364For the third printing of S&W, a genderqueer lead was hired, and assembled an all-female design team. Art is changed. Iconic characters changed. etc.

From what I've read the lead is a married woman who is in therapy and doesn't know from day to day whether she is a woman or a man or what pronouns you should use to address her.
You should guess depending on the vibes she throws out.  Anyways her husband has my sympathy.

Quote from: 1989;968364... what a joke. Who believes this?

I'm shocked.  I knew that women could make babies and some of them are passable cooks, but I thought drawing was way way out of their league!
Well I guess they sure showed us.  But looking at the cover art, I'm still a might skeptical.  I don't know what the hell it is.  
It looks to me like a bunch of scribbles forming a giant rorschach vagina, but then maybe that reflects my own peculiar obsession.
I would hope the interior art is better.  I mean I'd hate to show my players a picture of one the monsters, like for instance a kobold, and have them
complain that it looks like a pair of titties or a vagina.

Quote from: DocJones;968576I'm shocked.  I knew that women could make babies and some of them are passable cooks, but I thought drawing was way way out of their league!
Well I guess they sure showed us.  But looking at the cover art, I'm still a might skeptical.  I don't know what the hell it is.  
It looks to me like a bunch of scribbles forming a giant rorschach vagina, but then maybe that reflects my own peculiar obsession.
I would hope the interior art is better.  I mean I'd hate to show my players a picture of one the monsters, like for instance a kobold, and have them
complain that it looks like a pair of titties or a vagina.

[video=youtube;d1FlERgmncw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1FlERgmncw[/youtube]

Quote from: jeff37923;968498The problem here is that I have read John Scalzi's material including the libtarded stuff (which is why I know to disagree), while I sincerely doubt that you have read any of the writings of RPGPundit (besides blog posts and posts here) or John Ringo. Especially since the last time I brought up John Ringo you had an absolutely visceral knee-jerk reaction. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35263-Cultural-Appropriation-is-the-BEST!!/page7)




I have my doubts. It has been my experience that what you see is what you get.

I've read several of Pundits game review and, many of his 'news' articles.  I have also read Lords of Olympus.  

I've read a bunch of Ringo.  It is my considered opinion that he is writing facist propaganda.  Which as I said at the time I love reading.  I thought I was being reasionable and you had the visceral reaction.  

As for Scalzi, I didn't even know he was a liberal, I just read his books.

Quote from: Headless;968588I've read a bunch of Ringo.  

Sure you have......

Quote from: Headless;968588It is my considered opinion that he is writing facist propaganda.  Which as I said at the time I love reading.  I thought I was being reasionable and you had the visceral reaction.

I called you on your bullshit. You claimed to be a SME on John Ringo and yet you cannot give a brief synopsis of any of the books he has written and when pressed, got pertinent details of his books wrong. It is all there in the linked thread you quoted which people can read for themselves.

See, Headless, you are part of the problem. You just react and claim that John Ringo is a fascist because that is what you have been told to say by your peer group of SJWs. You have not read any of his books, nor have you thought for yourself why John Ringo is supposedly a fascist. That is not researching someone or something and coming to your own conclusions about it, that is just going along with the herd you have identified with.

I am going to regret this but...

What does hiring an all female team have to do with making the game "more accessible"? Men can only write for men but women automatically craft things to universal? I don't care about the gender mix in and of itself but I don't follow the reasoning behind it. Its not the "best people for the job" or even "We hoped to give more women a position in gaming."

What a load of nonsense this thread is.  1989, you probably want to include me on the forbidden list since (you may recall) I worked on 5e and I approved of their gender-language paragraph.  I'm also one of those degenerate libertarians who doesn't give the tiniest fuck if The Gays want to parade in loincloths on the streets.

SJWs are people who try to take away your rights, especially to free expression. They're not just people who exercise their own free expression.

As for the cover or S&W, that's really old news, like about 8 months old.  And I had something to say about it back then, but you're really not going to like it (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-all-woman-swords-wizardry-printing.html).

Quote from: DocJones;968576From what I've read the lead is a married woman who is in therapy and doesn't know from day to day whether she is a woman or a man or what pronouns you should use to address her.
You should guess depending on the vibes she throws out.  Anyways her husband has my sympathy.

Wow... :eek: Wasn't sure if this could be true so I did a bit of Google research, and yes it seems so: "Founder of ConTessa, Tabletop RPG Developer, and proudly genderqueer. Pronouns: They/Them" - https://twitter.com/StacyRex?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

So if she's (sometimes) a man now, shouldn't she be firing herself from ConTessa et al? She said herself, it's not good for men (like her) to have authority over women!

Quote from: S'mon;968517Well the problem is that they actually do do that. They do stuff straights would get arrested for (at least in Britain; I am not all that familiar with Disneyland Gay Day).

I think it's like Pundit's description of the Furry community, how the sexual perverts drove out the people who just liked anthropomorphic animals. A lack of gatekeeping and something akin to the 'Geek Social Fallacies' gave the worst elements moral-political dominance.

I'm pretty sure there's not allot of male/male anal or lesbians scissoring on Space Mountain.

Quote from: RPGPundit;968608SJWs are people who try to take away your rights, especially to free expression. They're not just people who exercise their own free expression.

As for the cover or S&W, that's really old news, like about 8 months old.  And I had something to say about it back then, but you're really not going to like it (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-all-woman-swords-wizardry-printing.html).

Agreed to this first part especially. How is creating a new game printing an attack on these games?

If some genderqueer or other liberal people are playing and publishing games you like, that's them *supporting* your games - not attacking them.

Quote from: jhkim;968630If some genderqueer or other liberal people are playing and publishing games you like, that's them *supporting* your games - not attacking them.

You do know she got the gig after posting "Why does the OSR hate women?"? It was quite a big deal at the time. I used to support her, because it seemed like ConTessa was a good constructive thing, even if it was exclusive. But doing the Jesse Jackson "Nice little OSR you got here... Shame if anything happened to it" racket certainly changed my mind.

Quote from: S'mon;968622Wow... :eek: Wasn't sure if this could be true so I did a bit of Google research, and yes it seems so: "Founder of ConTessa, Tabletop RPG Developer, and proudly genderqueer. Pronouns: They/Them" - https://twitter.com/StacyRex?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

So if she's (sometimes) a man now, shouldn't she be firing herself from ConTessa et al? She said herself, it's not good for men (like her) to have authority over women!

Apparently it wasn't enough having women GM games...
http://www.contessa.rocks/blog/founders-forum-the-future-of-contessa
She appears to blame Trump.  I guess Trump is coming after LGBT and PoC gamers.

Quote from: S'mon;968637You do know she got the gig after posting "Why does the OSR hate women?"? It was quite a big deal at the time. I used to support her, because it seemed like ConTessa was a good constructive thing, even if it was exclusive. But doing the Jesse Jackson "Nice little OSR you got here... Shame if anything happened to it" racket certainly changed my mind.

If you don't have anything else to offer, attacking a real (or creating an imaginary) social evil is one way to sell yourself or a product as something special. I think it was a clever marketing gimmick. But I can appreciate that without feeling any need to buy.

But she didn't actually push a hate agenda, did she?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968527I try my best to be reasonable when I can.

So, do you think 1989 is a troll or just some far-right giant douche?

C. All of the above.

Quote from: RPGPundit;968608What a load of nonsense this thread is.  1989, you probably want to include me on the forbidden list since (you may recall) I worked on 5e and I approved of their gender-language paragraph.  I'm also one of those degenerate libertarians who doesn't give the tiniest fuck if The Gays want to parade in loincloths on the streets.

SJWs are people who try to take away your rights, especially to free expression. They're not just people who exercise their own free expression.

As for the cover or S&W, that's really old news, like about 8 months old.  And I had something to say about it back then, but you're really not going to like it (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-all-woman-swords-wizardry-printing.html).

I usually avoid this forum because I'm liberal (well classically. There's no fucking way I'll ever vote for anyone named Trudeau) and probably crazy, but shit like this is why I like you. I won't always agree with what you say, but you get two thumbs up here, man.

Quote from: jeff37923;968592Sure you have......



I called you on your bullshit. You claimed to be a SME on John Ringo and yet you cannot give a brief synopsis of any of the books he has written and when pressed, got pertinent details of his books wrong. It is all there in the linked thread you quoted which people can read for themselves.

See, Headless, you are part of the problem. You just react and claim that John Ringo is a fascist because that is what you have been told to say by your peer group of SJWs. You have not read any of his books, nor have you thought for yourself why John Ringo is supposedly a fascist. That is not researching someone or something and coming to your own conclusions about it, that is just going along with the herd you have identified with.

I didn't say he was a fascist I said he was writing facist propaganda.  I did give pertanit details.  I think you kept moving the goal posts.  I read the Hot Gate, the Council war, thats the one he got board of writting and didn't finish. And a couple others.  

If you don't think he is writting propaganda thats fine.  But I think his habit of taking reproductive rights away is a problem.  Hot gate and council wars.  

His deamonising of the environmental movement is a problem.  Empire of Man (with david Webber) and Last Centurian.

Militarism and corporate glorification many not be problems but they are necessary (but not sufficent) elements for Facisim.  Everything he has every written glorifies the miltary, thats cool, I like miltary fiction, especially miltary Sci Fi.  The Heroic entrepreneur is a myth this country was built on.  Still its a Myth that is intergral to Facism, thats the Centre of the Hot Gate.  

The belief that we would be better off if we just killed all the brown people and retards.  Thats pretty hard to wiggle around, but its in the Hot Gate.  

In the future one (Poleseen wars?) there is a literal goose steping Nazi Storm Trooper given rejuvenation treatments to train new soldiers to save Humanity.  Actully I have the least problem with him.  Which is to say I think the Nazi charcter is one of the least facist elements in that book.  

Sure there are reasons inside the book for these elements to exist and they are just the proper course of action from inside the Narrative. Not Facist at all.  But He wrote it that way.  He specificly wrote a scenario so that we could respect the warrior ethos of the SS.  

Further, if the Author of the "oh no John Ringo" meme and book review is honest in his report of his exchange with Ringo, Ringo would agree with me.  There are Facist elements in his writing.  

He writes miltary science fiction and Fantasy.  If we can't find it in his books we aren't trying.  Two of the elements of Facism are Miltarism and Heroic Narritive.  

If you want to talk books I'm game.  If there is a specific you have about some of the books I have read, or want to recomend one I haven't mentioned I'm game.  If you want to deny my opinion cause I can never seem to reach your moving goal post go pound sand.

Quote from: RPGPundit;968608What a load of nonsense this thread is.  1989, you probably want to include me on the forbidden list since (you may recall) I worked on 5e and I approved of their gender-language paragraph.  I'm also one of those degenerate libertarians who doesn't give the tiniest fuck if The Gays want to parade in loincloths on the streets.

SJWs are people who try to take away your rights, especially to free expression. They're not just people who exercise their own free expression.

As for the cover or S&W, that's really old news, like about 8 months old.  And I had something to say about it back then, but you're really not going to like it (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-all-woman-swords-wizardry-printing.html).

Sure. And I'm free not to buy it. And instead buy something else.

That's why I started a thread to ask which publishers are making games that don't put this in my face.

Quote from: S'mon;968485Maybe if there had been a concerted customer pushback things would have gone differently. I doubt the typical Pathfinder number-cruncher char-op guy is really a committed SJW...

For better or worse, the continued success of Paizo and WW prove SJW RPG material has an audience. And if a market exists, someone will produce product for that audience.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;968484The nice thing about RPGs is that it's very difficult to make them more political than the group wants them to be.

Agreed.

Quote from: 1989;968480It just rubs me the wrong way. Don't want to support this. Spend my money elsewhere.

Agreed.

Everyone should vote with their dollars and their feet for whatever they believe in.

Quote from: 1989;968497Makes me feel I should just give up on RPGs, now that all the major commerical publishers are basically SJW-infested, leaving only small-time operations/POD.

Crazy talk!

Why would you ever give up your hobby just because some asshats are pushing agendas in products you don't buy?

Especially in the New Golden Age where "commercial" publishers are meaningless compared to the PDF/POD/KS creators???

Quote from: HorusArisen;968499Also what's a Disneyland gay day?

It's actually a really great event. I've had many friends and their families attend. It probably had counter-culture / activist origins, but its evolved into something that's just good fun. And Disneyland has had LOTS of unofficial day events throughout the years for many different groups.

Quote from: S'mon;968512Yeah, I don't get why (sane) left-liberals conflate equal rights for their perfectly decent homosexual-couple friends, with simulated buttfucking in Gay Pride parades, extreme promiscuity, and other characteristics of the (male) Gay supposed-Community. None of my gay male friends are into that stuff.

Have you seen popular dance moves among heterosexuals? Wanna see a lot of simo-butt-fuck action? Teen prom night with teacher chaperones. Simulated sex in dance is the norm...since the 1950s, and probably 1920s too.  

Don't forget that rock & roll and jazz corrupted the youth with the Devil's music long before hip hop and rap.  

Quote from: Nexus;968594What does hiring an all female team have to do with making the game "more accessible"?

If you live in reality? Nothing.

If you live in identity politics land? Everything.

Quote from: RPGPundit;968608SJWs are people who try to take away your rights, especially to free expression. They're not just people who exercise their own free expression.

True.

Quote from: DocJones;968643Apparently it wasn't enough having women GM games...
http://www.contessa.rocks/blog/founders-forum-the-future-of-contessa
She appears to blame Trump.  I guess Trump is coming after LGBT and PoC gamers.

That link was so sad. Turning ConTessa into some form of misguided activism where gamers are slotted into various "identities" is the exact opposite of inclusion.  Real inclusion is "all who wish to play are welcome to play", which BTW is how all non-SJW conventions have always been run.

As I've said before, I wish ConTessa (as an outreach con) much success because hopefully it will help create some new GMs and new gamers who won't be afraid to wander beyond the safe space in the future.

The SJW bogeyman stories about the RPG community rapidly break down when people sit down at a table.

Quote from: Spinachcat;968429...It especially reeks of a shakedown considering Stacy did her "Why does the OSR hate women?" dance before getting the S&W gig.

Is she the woman behind Contessa? Didn't Hurley and a few others shit on her and Contessa for not being 'feminist' enough? (whatevver that means)

I think the interior art that I've seen online looks excellent but who gives a shit? Who is bothering to buy these retroclones when the original rules are avaialble for purchase as pdfs?

Quote from: John Scott;968444Pendragon?

Are you serious? Stafford is a Californian pagan SHAMAN.

Quote from: san dee jota;968449"I used to cheat on my husband four or five times a week.  I'd look at him playing D&D and think 'what a baby penis'.  But ever since he switched to Rifts, he's been different.  More powerful.  More virile.  More... of a man.  Thanks Palladium Books, for helping me beat my adulterous addiction to black cock."

Yeah, I'm not seeing it.

:D haha

Quote from: Voros;968671Didn't Hurley and a few others shit on her and Contessa for not being 'feminist' enough? (whatevver that means)

I hope not because that sounds insane.

Anyone have any info on this?

Quote from: Voros;968671Who is bothering to buy these retroclones when the original rules are avaialble for purchase as pdfs?

For whatever reason, some gamers won't play out of print games.

EDIT: Yeah, I know that makes no sense considering OSR stuff is being cranked out for the original rules. But it's apparently a thing.

Quote from: 1989;968507Just like the disgusting Pride Parades in Canada.

Lordy. Somebody has a problem with the Gays, doesn't he?

Quote from: Spinachcat;968670If you live in reality? Nothing.

If you live in identity politics land? Everything.

Apparently that is out reality now. Like I've said before, the only reason something being all women might be worrisome is I'm uncomfortable with anyone putting out an "X need not apply" sign without a really good reason. Other than that, its there business. It seems like a marketing ploy courting (or pandering if you wish) to a certain audience. Its not like its the first time.

Quote from: DocJones;968643Apparently it wasn't enough having women GM games...
http://www.contessa.rocks/blog/founders-forum-the-future-of-contessa
She appears to blame Trump.  I guess Trump is coming after LGBT and PoC gamers.

Hold it...a queer person doesn't like Trump? Stunning! :rolleyes:

Quote from: Voros;968671Who is bothering to buy these retroclones when the original rules are avaialble for purchase as pdfs?

Anybody who wants to produce their own material for the game and publish it, possibly even get paid. That is a huge attraction for the retroclones.

I've heard that rationale before but I'm not sure I buy it. Don't rulebooks outsell modules and supplements? I believe that's what Raggi of LotFP discovered once he published his version of the B/X rules. The ruleset is still his best selling product. And outside of LL I don't see many modules being produced for OSRIC or S&W.

True, but lots of people just want to write modules and supplements for some flavor of TSR D&D.

Quote from: Headless;968588I've read a bunch of Ringo.  It is my considered opinion that he is writing facist propaganda.  Which as I said at the time I love reading.  I thought I was being reasionable and you had the visceral reaction.  

Looking to go another round?

Quote from: DocJones;968643Apparently it wasn't enough having women GM games...
http://www.contessa.rocks/blog/founders-forum-the-future-of-contessa
She appears to blame Trump.  I guess Trump is coming after LGBT and PoC gamers.

That's brilliant how she changes her own rules in a way that just happens to accommodate her new identity.

This pisses me off.  Trump had shown nothing, but love for the LGTB community.  Even the shooting that killed fifty people it was Trump that talk about doing something to defend the LGTB community.  What was Hillary and Bernie doing?  Fuck all nothing because they were too dishonest to talk about it.

So yeah fuck you to anyone that thinks Trump hate LGTB.

Quote from: Headless;968661He writes miltary science fiction and Fantasy.  If we can't find it in his books we aren't trying.  Two of the elements of Facism are Miltarism and Heroic Narritive.  

For all I know this guy may well be a card-carrying Fascist. But "elements of" is disingenuous. American Liberal Democracy routinely glorifies the military and uses the Heroic Narrative. Communism does the same when the Military are the People's Army. These are pretty much universal. It's their absence that is unusual.

Quote from: Voros;968672Are you serious? Stafford is a Californian pagan SHAMAN.

Eh, "Californian pagan shaman" =/= SJW!!!!

Isn't the Neo-Nazi church-burning game author Varg Vikernes a Heathenist Rune Priest? That's just a pagan shaman of a slightly different revivalist cult. And there are tons of pagans who aren't political at all. Unless I see Stafford engaging in SJW tactics it'd be completely unfair to call him an SJW based on his beliefs. However silly I think they are.

Quote from: Spinachcat;968674I hope not because that sounds insane.

Anyone have any info on this?

Yeah I remember back then. I was one of those normal, decent, fair & balanced people defending Stacy D against the evil SJWs who were attacking her online-convention for not being sufficiently SJW... *sigh*

Quote from: S'mon;968720For all I know this guy may well be a card-carrying Fascist. But "elements of" is disingenuous. American Liberal Democracy routinely glorifies the military and uses the Heroic Narrative. Communism does the same when the Military are the People's Army. These are pretty much universal. It's their absence that is unusual.

Yeah, if you're to the point where you're arguing that fascism = having a military, then you've just defined every society that exists or could exist as "fascist."

Quote from: fearsomepirate;968742Yeah, if you're to the point where you're arguing that fascism = having a military, then you've just defined every society that exists or could exist as "fascist."

No that wasn't my point at all.  And Costa Rica doesn't have a miltary.  

If the Necessary but not sufficient part was too technical for you, you could just focus on the parts where civil war save the human race, council wars.  Or he keeps taking away womens reproductive rights, council wars and Hot gate.

Quote from: Headless;968744No that wasn't my point at all.  And Costa Rica doesn't have a miltary.  

If the Necessary but not sufficient part was too technical for you, you could just focus on the parts where civil war save the human race, council wars.  Or he keeps taking away womens reproductive rights, council wars and Hot gate.

You keep talking generalities like you got them from a website. Give us some specifics to support your flailing about that Ringo writes fascist propaganda. You have made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

Quote from: Snowman0147;968719This pisses me off.  Trump had shown nothing, but love for the LGTB community.  Even the shooting that killed fifty people it was Trump that talk about doing something to defend the LGTB community.  What was Hillary and Bernie doing?  Fuck all nothing because they were too dishonest to talk about it.

So yeah fuck you to anyone that thinks Trump hate LGTB.

Well, he -did- make Pence his VP.

But yeah, I don't think Trump hates gays.  The real problem is that nowadays everybody wants everyone to fit within an ideological checklist.  "Democrat?  You're pro choice, pro LGBTQ rights, pro fiscally liberal policies, anti-Christian-but-pro-religious-tolerance.  Republican?  The opposite of all of that."  And you see people doing it to both their "opposing" side as well as their "supporting" side, and god help you if your don't fit in the box they assign you.  I see it more being done by the Left than the Right, but that may be sample bias.  On the flipside, it -would- help explain all the Bernie or Busters sticking to their guns while the GOP managed to somehow come together to back Trump.

Quote from: san dee jota;968750Well, he -did- make Pence his VP.

Among other things.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/opinion/the-lgbt-trump-fallacy.html?_r=0

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/04/politics/lgbt-religious-liberty-executive-order/index.html

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/civil-wars/articles/2017-04-24/donald-trumps-guerrilla-war-against-against-lgbt-americans

But Pence is a major sore point.

He may not hate them (I don't think Trump feels much about any group or most individuals aside from as tools and obstacles to his urges and agendas) but he's demonstrated willingness to throw them under the bus to court his base.

As for his reaction to Pulse Nightclub shooting, some found it questionable: http://www.newsweek.com/pulse-nightclub-trump-lgbt-community-624558

That is, of course, subject to interpretation.

Hillary Clinton on LGBT rights: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/lgbt-equality/

Bernie Sanders: https://berniesanders.com/issues/fighting-for-lgbt-equality/

Of course, we don't know how the might have performed in office on the issue but both Sanders and Hillary expressed their sympathy and horror at the Pulse Nightclub shooting as an attack on the LGBT community.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-updates/bernie-sanders-2/

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/political-pulse/87934068-132.html

Quote from: san dee jota;968750But yeah, I don't think Trump hates gays.  The real problem is that nowadays everybody wants everyone to fit within an ideological checklist.  "Democrat?  You're pro choice, pro LGBTQ rights, pro fiscally liberal policies, anti-Christian-but-pro-religious-tolerance.  Republican?  The opposite of all of that."  And you see people doing it to both their "opposing" side as well as their "supporting" side, and god help you if your don't fit in the box they assign you.  I see it more being done by the Left than the Right, but that may be sample bias.  On the flipside, it -would- help explain all the Bernie or Busters sticking to their guns while the GOP managed to somehow come together to back Trump.

Unity has long been a problem among those more on the Left side of US political spectrum. It seems to encompass a more diverse spread of beliefs and communities and yes, the emphasis on purity tests has been more pronounced or at least more divisive among the Left. Not that "right" doesn't have them too. Hell Regan, the real one not the near mythological figure wouldn't slot neatly into the current GOP and he's treated as an almost mythological figure by some circles in it. This could have something to do with the general greater youth on "Left" and all the passion, drive, impatience and lack of willingness to compromise for greater goal that can bring.

Quote from: Nexus;968752Among other things.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/opinion/the-lgbt-trump-fallacy.html?_r=0

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/04/politics/lgbt-religious-liberty-executive-order/index.html

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/civil-wars/articles/2017-04-24/donald-trumps-guerrilla-war-against-against-lgbt-americans

He may not hate them (I don't think Trump feels much about any group or most individuals aside from as tools and obstacles to his urges and agendas) but he's demonstrated willingness to throw them under the bus to court his base.

As for his reaction to Pulse Nightclub shooting, some found it questionable: http://www.newsweek.com/pulse-nightclub-trump-lgbt-community-624558

That is, of course, subject to interpretation.

Hillary Clinton on LGBT rights: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/lgbt-equality/

Bernie Sanders: https://berniesanders.com/issues/fighting-for-lgbt-equality/

Of course, we don't know how the might have performed in office on the issue but both Sanders and Hillary expressed their sympathy and horror at the Pulse Nightclub shooting as an attack on the LGBT community.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-updates/bernie-sanders-2/

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/political-pulse/87934068-132.html

Nope, no unbiased reporting in any of these. The first three read like opinion pieces where they suggest the worst possible outcome of actual events. Trump decided to speak about the Pulse Nightclub shooting instead of doing a grandstanding photo op like Clinton and Bernie did. Two in the middle are campaign rhetoric - one by a democrat candidate who was thrown under the bus and one by the candidate who did the throwing and then blamed everyone but herself for the loss of the election. These articles are great examples of sowing Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

Quote from: Nexus;968752Among other things.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/opinion/the-lgbt-trump-fallacy.html?_r=0

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/04/politics/lgbt-religious-liberty-executive-order/index.html

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/civil-wars/articles/2017-04-24/donald-trumps-guerrilla-war-against-against-lgbt-americans

He may not hate them (I don't think Trump feels much about any group or most individuals aside from as tools and obstacles to his urges and agendas) but he's demonstrated willingness to throw them under the bus to court his base.

As for his reaction to Pulse Nightclub shooting, some found it questionable: http://www.newsweek.com/pulse-nightclub-trump-lgbt-community-624558

That is, of course, subject to interpretation.

Hillary Clinton on LGBT rights: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/lgbt-equality/

Bernie Sanders: https://berniesanders.com/issues/fighting-for-lgbt-equality/

Of course, we don't know how the might have performed in office on the issue but both Sanders and Hillary expressed their sympathy and horror at the Pulse Nightclub shooting as an attack on the LGBT community.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-updates/bernie-sanders-2/

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/political-pulse/87934068-132.html

Nope, no unbiased reporting in any of these. The first three read like opinion pieces where they suggest the worst possible outcome of actual events. Trump decided to speak about the Pulse Nightclub shooting instead of doing a grandstanding photo op like Clinton and Bernie did. Two in the middle are campaign rhetoric - one by a democrat candidate who was thrown under the bus and one by the candidate who did the throwing and then blamed everyone but herself for the loss of the election. These articles are great examples of sowing Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

What has Trump actually done which has an affect on the GBLT community besides getting elected? What anti-GBLT executive orders has he passed?

Has anyone played the Gor RPG? Somebody mentioned the company who makes it on this thread.

Quote from: 1989;968765Has anyone played the Gor RPG? Somebody mentioned the company who makes it on this thread.

There's a Gor RPG? Fuck my life.

I thought Black Tokyo was bad enough, but whoever it is that made the Gor RPG should really get some professional help.

I'm no SJW and I'm a known hentai connoisseur but that Gor stuff is just disgusting and wrong even by my standards.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968769There's a Gor RPG? Fuck my life.

I thought Black Tokyo was bad enough, but whoever it is that made the Gor RPG should really get some professional help.

I'm no SJW and I'm a known hentai connoisseur but that Gor stuff is just disgusting and wrong even by my standards.

James 'Grimm' Desborough made it.
The lifestyle Gor online fanbase seems about 80% female. Where submission fantasies are relatively effortless, being a Gorean Top/Dom seems utterly exhausting to me, having to constantly fulfil all those women's domination fantasies. At least Gigolos get paid...

Quote from: S'mon;968773James 'Grimm' Desborough made it.
The lifestyle Gor online fanbase seems about 80% female. Where submission fantasies are relatively effortless, being a Gorean Top/Dom seems utterly exhausting to me, having to constantly fulfil all those women's domination fantasies. At least Gigolos get paid...

I don't know whether to laugh or to vomit.

But eh, whatever floats their boats I suppose. I can't stand that Gor stuff, but if the ladies like it and they keep it to themselves, I'm not going to judge them.

Then again, I enjoy Urotsukidoji unironically, so maybe I shouldn't judge people who like Gor.

Fifty Shades of Grey is the new Gor. Nothing changes.

Quote from: S'mon;968773The lifestyle Gor online fanbase seems about 80% female. Where submission fantasies are relatively effortless, being a Gorean Top/Dom seems utterly exhausting to me, having to constantly fulfil all those women's domination fantasies.

I don't dabble in the online stuff, it just seems like a lot of one-handed typing to me.

Real Life though, it is mentally unhealthy. If you are engaged in 24/7 BDSM play (as Gorean lifestyle requires) shows some kind of pathology at work there, and this is from the guy who has been into this for the past thirty years. There must be moderation in all things.

Quote from: 1989;968792Fifty Shades of Grey is the new Gor. Nothing changes.

Your ignorance is laughable.

You're right. I've read neither.

Maybe you could give a quick summary?

Quote from: 1989;968799You're right. I've read neither.

Maybe you could give a quick summary?

Both are fiction and have elements of BDSM, there the similarity ends.

The Gor novels (all 33 of them) are sword and planet fantasy stories first and foremost written from a Nietzschean standpoint where slavery is common and usually applied to women. They have been written from 1966 onward by John Norman (who incidently has a PhD in Philosophy). The concepts of women as submissive property to Conanesque heroes  are throughout the books. These books were primarily written for a male audience. I can easily see the setting being written up for any number of fantasy game systems.

The 50 Shades books (all 3) were written by E. L. James from 2010 onward and answer the question, "What if the horrible writing, wooden characters, and plot potholes of the Twilight series was applied to an adult erotic novel." 50 Shades series is set in modern times with the modern titillation of naughty sex spicing up a fairly dull romance novel with a business magnate CEO seducing a hapless recent college graduate that ends when she gets what she asks for.  These books were primarily written for a female audience.

I dislike both series of books because of the unrealistic picture of what a BDSM relationship should look like, and that can be dangerous in the wrong circumstances.

Okay, I had been focusing on the dominant/submissive aspect of the male/female relationships. Thank you.

Quote from: jeff37923;968749You keep talking generalities like you got them from a website. Give us some specifics to support your flailing about that Ringo writes fascist propaganda. You have made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

Quote from: jeff37923;968749You keep talking generalities like you got them from a website. Give us some specifics to support your flailing about that Ringo writes fascist propaganda. You have made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

Who reads attack websites about Authors they don't read?  Thats a weird thing to do right?  

If you don't want to talk about books thats fine, just say so.  If you want to talk about books, say something about books.  

If you think there is a level of knowledge required to enter the discussion, set the bar, you meet the bar and I might jump through your hoop once.  

I might not, depends on where you set the bar and the ratio of tolerance for other peoples bad faith and bullshit, vs my need to feel validated by strangers on the internet

Gor is just old school Sword & Planet with the gonzo, stupid, and kinky knobs all turned to 11.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;968817Gor is just old school Sword & Planet with the gonzo, stupid, and kinky knobs all turned to 11.

Is there a RIFTS version of this? Bwahahaha

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968781I don't know whether to laugh or to vomit.

But eh, whatever floats their boats I suppose. I can't stand that Gor stuff, but if the ladies like it and they keep it to themselves, I'm not going to judge them.

Then again, I enjoy Urotsukidoji unironically, so maybe I shouldn't judge people who like Gor.

You are chucking some big rocks out your plate glass house. At least women exploding while being raped by penises the size of tree trunks is rarer in Gor, AIU. :P  :D

Quote from: Headless;968813Who reads attack websites about Authors they don't read?  Thats a weird thing to do right?  

If you don't want to talk about books thats fine, just say so.  If you want to talk about books, say something about books.  

If you think there is a level of knowledge required to enter the discussion, set the bar, you meet the bar and I might jump through your hoop once.  

I might not, depends on where you set the bar and the ratio of tolerance for other peoples bad faith and bullshit, vs my need to feel validated by strangers on the internet

Still no specifics to support your flailing about that Ringo writes fascist propaganda. You have made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

Quote from: Headless;968813Who reads attack websites about Authors they don't read?  Thats a weird thing to do right?  
t

Not on the internet where hate watching/reading is major pass time.

Pelgrane Press is lost to SJWs given this crap:-

 "The thing about SWGs (Straight White Guys) is that they make great punching bags. "

Quote from: waltshumate;968825Pelgrane Press is lost to SJWs given this crap:-

 "The thing about SWGs (Straight White Guys) is that they make great punching bags. "

OK, that is vomitus to read. Where was it? Where did the quote come from?

Quote from: jeff37923;968822Still no specifics to support your flailing about that Ringo writes fascist propaganda. You have made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

He made the claim before and I beat his ass over it. If he follows his previous posts, he'll wait until you prove your point than whine about you not correcting sooner.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;968828He made the claim before and I beat his ass over it. If he follows his previous posts, he'll wait until you prove your point than whine about you not correcting sooner.

Yeah, it is his M.O. I'm just tired of unsubstantiated claims thrown out by shitheads who don't have a clue about the subject matter. If he was worth a shit, you know as in read any of John Ringo's books, to back up his claim he should be able to tell us which ones are fascist propaganda, what passages are fascist propaganda, and how those passages promote fascism with the readers including what the target audience is for that propaganda.

As I said in another thread. I don't care if the person working for a company is female, male, Transgendered etc. As long as the person is hired for his talent and ability not his gender. If I hire two companies to fix the roof of my house. All I want to know is that I'm hiring the best people. If the owner of the company is wasting my time telling me I should their company for being more progressive. They are not only wasting my time, chances are the people working for the company were hired only for their gender and not their talent and ability.

As to why it's a bad thing that some companies have gone full SJW. It's because when on their forums it feels like one has to walk on eggshells at all times. Which to me is not a pleasant experience in the least. The forums SJW favorites can get away with murder. Their is a thread where one such person on the Paizo forums called a comic writer a white supremacist Nazi simply because he or she hated the message of the story in the comic. The posts get flagged or reported and nothing gets down. The same poster goes around acting full SJW telling people what they can or cannot say. One tries to do the same to them and they get insulted and freak out. If proven factually wrong that the author is not a Nazi it matters not. Since the poster says it's so it must be so. As well it seems Mods tend to listen to those posters as well. Banning people when the SJW tell them too. The inmates are not only running the asylum they are given the keys by those in charge. One wrong thing can get one banned. Or trigger a SJW.

As for the art in the OP links I could care less who drew it. Gender matters not. While I can't draw my way out of a wet paper bag to save my life the art in the links is imo pure crap. It feels and looks nothing like Fantasy. Seems to have been drawn by someone who smoked peyote, crack and heroin at the same time. The cover art for 5E and Pathfinder core is evocative of a fantasy rpg. the one for S&W looks like it belongs on many of the books in witchcraft sections of the local bookstore.

Quote from: jeff37923;968831Yeah, it is his M.O. I'm just tired of unsubstantiated claims thrown out by shitheads who don't have a clue about the subject matter. If he was worth a shit, you know as in read any of John Ringo's books, to back up his claim he should be able to tell us which ones are fascist propaganda, what passages are fascist propaganda, and how those passages promote fascism with the readers including what the target audience is for that propaganda.

I think I did that.  

Yeah just did that, yesterday.  I checked.  If you want me to cite chapter and verse fuck you.  I don't even spell check.  If you would like me to be more specific ask a specific question.  

I'll meet you half way, in The Hot Gate, aliens release a series of plauges on the earth.  One of those plauges kills people who can't look after themselves.  That includes handicapped,  and welfare recipients.  (And I think its heavily implied that Muslims suffer heavily as well but what ever)  later in the same book the wise man charcter, the one that tells younger charcters how the world works, the Authors soap box, says the encomy has improved with out all that dead wieght.  

I think the belief that society would be better off if we killed a significant minority of it is Facist.  

Is that specific enough for you.

Quote from: 1989;968819Is there a RIFTS version of this? Bwahahaha

If there is any RPG where GMs should just GO. COMPLETELY. FUCKING. BONKERS. APESHIT. and just make it their own personal thing... It's Rifts.

Quote from: Headless;968848I think I did that.  

Yeah just did that, yesterday.  I checked.  If you want me to cite chapter and verse fuck you.  I don't even spell check.  If you would like me to be more specific ask a specific question.  

I'll meet you half way, in The Hot Gate, aliens release a series of plauges on the earth.  One of those plauges kills people who can't look after themselves.  That includes handicapped,  and welfare recipients.  (And I think its heavily implied that Muslims suffer heavily as well but what ever)  later in the same book the wise man charcter, the one that tells younger charcters how the world works, the Authors soap box, says the encomy has improved with out all that dead wieght.  

I think the belief that society would be better off if we killed a significant minority of it is Facist.  

Is that specific enough for you.

Well, what do you know. I just happen to have a copy of The Hot Gate by one John Ringo right at hand.

I'm going to flip through it to find your claims, but chapter and verse would help. Or continue to be an ass.

Your choice.

Quote from: Headless;968848I think I did that.  

Yeah just did that, yesterday.  I checked.  If you want me to cite chapter and verse fuck you.  I don't even spell check.  If you would like me to be more specific ask a specific question.  

I'll meet you half way, in The Hot Gate, aliens release a series of plauges on the earth.  One of those plauges kills people who can't look after themselves.  That includes handicapped,  and welfare recipients.

Wait, what? Does the plague only affect people with a certain credit rating or what?

Quote from: Nexus;968853Wait, what? Does the plague only affect people with a certain credit rating or what?

Well, it's in Live Free or Die, so he's already fucked up. But the alien invaders release a virus that's easy to defeat but incredibly lethal. The aliens want a reduced population that can mine resources for them.

And it doesn't kill all the handicapped or mentally deficient, because those sub groups are GIVEN the required treatments. But the still die in huge numbers due to falling rocks.

What the virus does manage to achieve is to kill of almost all the fanatics, Christian and Muslim alike that for one reason or another either won't or can't get with the program.

The boost to economy comes from the fact that MOST OF THE FUCKING PEOPLE ARE DEAD! Social programs don't cost much after you've wiped out 45% of the US.

Finally someone that wants to talk about books!

There are several plagues.  One of them, the easiest one is a protoza i believe, it digs in and eventually turns septic.  Killing the host, by toxic shock I think.  

There are other plagues that have other effects.  

I think the idea that 45% of the population is a drag on the economy is facist.  

One of the other effects of a different plauge is, The Pill doesn't work, and women go into Heat.  I think removing womens reproductive rights is facist.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;968817Gor is just old school Sword & Planet with the gonzo, stupid, and kinky knobs all turned to 11.

It's not nearly as much fun as you make it sound. :D

The most fun I ever got from Gor was when I managed to resell a 99p paperback copy of "Slave Girl of Gor" on amazon z-shops for £28, a long time ago. The books are practically unreadable, and I don't mean "OMG what a terrible ideology!" - the writing is absolutely appalling. Makes Gygax's worst look like Fritz Leiber.

Quote from: Headless;968865Finally someone that wants to talk about books!

There are several plagues.  One of them, the easiest one is a protoza i believe, it digs in and eventually turns septic.  Killing the host, by toxic shock I think.  

There are other plagues that have other effects.  

I think the idea that 45% of the population is a drag on the economy is facist.  

One of the other effects of a different plauge is, The Pill doesn't work, and women go into Heat.  I think removing womens reproductive rights is facist.

These are things done the bad guys you moron!

And if the pill doesn't work you're going to have a hard time working out the sexual freedom of one EM2 Parker. The female pov for the last two books.

That Ringo. He's such a knuckle dragging caveman he basically retired the male pov character Tyler Vernon and replaced him with Comet Parker.

Damn that facist!

Oh....wait...

Quote from: Headless;968848I think the belief that society would be better off if we killed a significant minority of it is Facist.  

I'm starting to understand you use "Fascist" to mean "Nazi", right? The way the Soviet Union did in WW2, because they didn't want to refer to the enemy as National Socialists. Mussolini's Fascism glorified militarism & conquest but otherwise didn't involve most of the things you've been talking about.

Also, it's Fascist not Facist.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;968854The boost to economy comes from the fact that MOST OF THE FUCKING PEOPLE ARE DEAD! Social programs don't cost much after you've wiped out 45% of the US.

Okay...

Quote from: Headless;968848I think I did that.  

Yeah just did that, yesterday.  I checked.  If you want me to cite chapter and verse fuck you.  I don't even spell check.  If you would like me to be more specific ask a specific question.  

I'll meet you half way, in The Hot Gate, aliens release a series of plauges on the earth.  One of those plauges kills people who can't look after themselves.  That includes handicapped,  and welfare recipients.  (And I think its heavily implied that Muslims suffer heavily as well but what ever)  later in the same book the wise man charcter, the one that tells younger charcters how the world works, the Authors soap box, says the encomy has improved with out all that dead wieght.  

I think the belief that society would be better off if we killed a significant minority of it is Facist.  

Is that specific enough for you.

Communists believe that society would be better if the bourgeois were killed off.
SJWs believe that humanity would be better if white males were killed off.
Wahabbists believe that society would be better if all infidels were killed off.

Believing that utopia is right around the corner if the wrong people are killed off is a common theme of apocalyptic doomsday utopianism, not fascism in particular.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968769I'm no SJW and I'm a known hentai connoisseur but that Gor stuff is just disgusting and wrong even by my standards.

That sentence is so nutball.

Quote from: jeff37923;968749Give us some specifics to support your flailing about that Ringo writes fascist propaganda.

Is Ringo a good writer? Are his books fun? Is is sci-fi inspiring for RPG campaigns?

To me, that's way more important than his (perceived) politics.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968781Then again, I enjoy Urotsukidoji unironically, so maybe I shouldn't judge people who like Gor.

Dude...yes.

Quote from: jeff37923;968796If you are engaged in 24/7 BDSM play (as Gorean lifestyle requires) shows some kind of pathology at work there

The Bay Area and LA gaming cons had several Gorean couples, but I wonder how 24/7 most of them really are. I think its more LARP kink than lifestyle.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;968850If there is any RPG where GMs should just GO. COMPLETELY. FUCKING. BONKERS. APESHIT. and just make it their own personal thing... It's Rifts.

Absolutely! And that's one of Rifts best selling points.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;968870These are things done the bad guys you moron!
.

I can't speak for Headless but I think his point was more that the results were presented as a good thing not that the antagonists did them. Its like how some Post Apocalyptic fiction will present the deaths of large swaths of the population as, in the end, a good thing because it culled the weak and allowed the strong to prosper or it was mostly the "right" people that died.

I don't know if Ringo's books had that vibe but its not unheard of in the genre.

QuoteThe Bay Area and LA gng cons had several Gorean couples, but I wonder how 24/7 most of them really are. I think its more LARP kink than lifestyle.
.

More "My kink is sexy and fun. Your kink is a sign of mental illness." The classics never get old.

Quote from: Headless;968865Finally someone that wants to talk about books!

There are several plagues.  One of them, the easiest one is a protoza i believe, it digs in and eventually turns septic.  Killing the host, by toxic shock I think.  

There are other plagues that have other effects.  

I think the idea that 45% of the population is a drag on the economy is facist.  

One of the other effects of a different plauge is, The Pill doesn't work, and women go into Heat.  I think removing womens reproductive rights is facist.

Shine on you crazy diamond.....You have absolutely no clue about what you are blathering....

Quote from: Nexus;968879I can't speak for Headless but I think his point was more that the results were presented as a good thing not that the antagonists did them. Its like how some Post Apocalyptic fiction will present the deaths of large swaths of the population as, in the end, a good thing because it culled the weak and allowed the strong to prosper or it was mostly the "right" people that died.

I don't know if Ringo's books had that vibe but its not unheard of in the genre.

Quote from: Nexus;968885More "My kink is sexy and fun. Your kink is a sign of mental illness." The classics never get old.

But you do not really know, do you? Since you do not know, you imply the worst possible spin on the subject matter.

This is called spreading Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

Quote from: Spinachcat;968878Is Ringo a good writer? Are his books fun? Is his sci-fi inspiring for RPG campaigns?

To me, that's way more important than his (perceived) politics.

Yes, yes, and yes.

I will also add that I had the pleasure of gaming with him at LibertyCon before I knew who he was and had a great time. He loves Traveller and is fun to have at the game table.

Yes he's a good writter.  His books are Fun, and he's got great stuff for games.  He makes being a Nazi Fun!  Which shouldn't be a suprise being a Nazi was always fun for the Nazi's.

Things are better becuase mostly it is the correct people who die.

If you want to tell me he is advoctating for Nazi ism and not Facism I find the terms so sippery and highly charged that you I have a hard time knowing both their posisition and speed.

Commet is a cool character.  He does have strong and interesting female characters.  Its still a problem that he elminates easy reproductive choice.  

Society faces a crucible of war, the dead wood is burned away the decident liberal ideology cannot survive this harsher world, in order to survive society has to all pull together and do their part, womens part is as a rule domestic and pregnant with a few heroic exceptions.  Personal choice is subservient to the Cause, and the miltary is the heroic saviour of the people.

That sounds Fascist to me.  I might be wrong.  That is the theme of the Hot gate, Council Wars, Poleseen Wars.  And plenty of others.  With some variations depending on which book.  

Maybe thats not specific enough.  Ask a specific question and I will give a more specific answer.

Quote from: Headless;968892Yes he's a good writter.  His books are Fun, and he's got great stuff for games.  He makes being a Nazi Fun!  Which shouldn't be a suprise being a Nazi was always fun for the Nazi's.

Things are better becuase mostly it is the correct people who die.

If you want to tell me he is advoctating for Nazi ism and not Facism I find the terms so sippery and highly charged that you I have a hard time knowing both their posisition and speed.

Commet is a cool character.  He does have strong and interesting female characters.  Its still a problem that he elminates easy reproductive choice.  

Society faces a crucible of war, the dead wood is burned away the decident liberal ideology cannot survive this harsher world, in order to survive society has to all pull together and do their part, womens part is as a rule domestic and pregnant with a few heroic exceptions.  Personal choice is subservient to the Cause, and the miltary is the heroic saviour of the people.

That sounds Fascist to me.  I might be wrong.  That is the theme of the Hot gate, Council Wars, Poleseen Wars.  And plenty of others.  With some variations depending on which book.  

Maybe thats not specific enough.  Ask a specific question and I will give a more specific answer.

If you PM me your mailing address, I will buy and ship you a copy of John Ringo's book on the condition that you must read it.

Quote from: jeff37923;968826OK, that is vomitus to read. Where was it? Where did the quote come from?

Cthulhu Confidential

Quote from: jeff37923;968888But you do not really know, do you? Since you do not know, you imply the worst possible spin on the subject matter.

This is called spreading Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

I would love the chance to play with Ringo, I bet it was tonnes of fun.  I would even bite my tougne about his climate change denial, which is what really pisses me off.  Thats in The Last Centurian, and the environmentalist are the bad guys in the empire of man books co-written with David Webber.  

As for Fear, Uncertainty and doubt?  I don't think you need to be afraid of him.  He certainly doesn't belong on any list of banned books.  You should probably talk to your kids if they are reading him though, especially teen age boys.  But you should be talking to your kids any way.  

Doc Sammy your evil brother would love all those books I mentioned.

Quote from: Nexus;968885More "My kink is sexy and fun. Your kink is a sign of mental illness." The classics never get old.

But that's because you're into debased porn and can't appreciate my artistic erotica!! :)

Quote from: Headless;968892Yes he's a good writter.  His books are Fun, and he's got great stuff for games.

That sounds like a win all around.

Quote from: Headless;968892Society faces a crucible of war, the dead wood is burned away the decident liberal ideology cannot survive this harsher world, in order to survive society has to all pull together and do their part, womens part is as a rule domestic and pregnant with a few heroic exceptions.  Personal choice is subservient to the Cause, and the miltary is the heroic saviour of the people.

Sounds like human history.

Is that fascism? Or just understanding how humans operate under stress?

Liberal ideology is always chucked out the window at the first sign of societal stress. After Pearl Harbor, both parties were happy to imprison Japanese Americans. After 9/11, both parties demanded we submit to total surveillance "to defeat the terrorists". Now in the Age of Trump, the liberals want to toss Freedom of Speech because hearing wrongthink is just too dangerous.

I think the bigger question is what human rights would people NOT toss out if there was global disaster?

Quote from: waltshumate;968898Cthulhu Confidential

   In-character or out-of-character?

   Pelgrane has been shifting steadily in an openly left-wing direction over the past few months, with things like the #Feminism anthology and their "Gaming for Political Activism" seminar at GenCon, but I'd like more context.

   On the OP, IMO, it's conflating three different things. The S&W thing struck me as a combination of outreach and publicity stunt with no real harm. I think the D&D team would like to be more SJW, but corporate control and the breadth of the fanbase may hold them back a bit. :) And White Wolf's been outspokenly left-wing since the original Werewolf: The Apocalypse, if not earlier.

Quote from: jeff37923;968888But you do not really know, do you?

Why yes, that is what I said. Good boy. Gold star for you.

QuoteSince you do not know, you imply the worst possible spin on the subject matter.

This is called spreading Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

And that was called lack of reading comprehension and aggressive pot stirring. :rolleyes:

I was responding to what Headless and Warboss Squee said not Ringo's writing in the first quote. Specifically that Headless' conclusion wasn't automatically incorrect even if it was the book's antagonist that performed the mass killing. It could still be spun as good thing. Its not rare in Post Apocalyptic fiction and stories with such themes. Claiming that is impossible and that proves conclusively that Ringo's work can't have that feel is false.

But like I said, I don't know if Ringo's work does or not, didn't claim it did but I'm not going to agree that it can't. I didn't make a call on that issue at all.

In the second thing, you quoted I was talking about your statement about Gorean fetishists. It had nothing to to with Ringo's books or perceived political views so I'm not sure why you included it.

Quote from: Headless;968900I would love the chance to play with Ringo, I bet it was tonnes of fun.  I would even bite my tougne about his climate change denial, which is what really pisses me off.  Thats in The Last Centurian, and the environmentalist are the bad guys in the empire of man books co-written with David Webber.  

As for Fear, Uncertainty and doubt?  I don't think you need to be afraid of him.  He certainly doesn't belong on any list of banned books.  You should probably talk to your kids if they are reading him though, especially teen age boys.  But you should be talking to your kids any way.  

Doc Sammy your evil brother would love all those books I mentioned.

A) Is your name Nexus?
B) If you have not yet read any John Ringo then you are talking out of your ass about what his books contain and whether or not they are suitable for teenagers to read.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;968904In-character or out-of-character?

   Pelgrane has been shifting steadily in an openly left-wing direction over the past few months, with things like the #Feminism anthology and their "Gaming for Political Activism" seminar at GenCon, but I'd like more context.

   On the OP, IMO, he's conflating three different things. The S&W thing struck me as a combination of outreach and publicity stunt with no real harm. I think the D&D team would like to be more SJW, but corporate control and the breadth of the fanbase may hold them back a bit. :) And White Wolf's been outspokenly left-wing since the original Werewolf: The Apocalypse, if not earlier.

Feminism anthology? Are you serious?

Gaming for political activism? For real?

Is this a company entirely composed of women, or do men work for this company?

Quote from: Nexus;968906In the second thing, you quoted I was talking about your statement about Gorean fetishists. It had nothing to to with Ringo's books or perceived political views so I'm not sure why you included it.

Yup, that is why I posted that. You lumped it all together and dismissed it because it was badwrongfun to you. That snide little bon mott of "The classics never get old." just demonstrated your disdain.

What the crying fuck is going on in this thread.

Quote from: Rincewind1;968918What the crying fuck is going on in this thread.

Oh, just the usual.

Quote from: Spinachcat;968903Sounds like human history.

Is that fascism? Or just understanding how humans operate under stress?

Liberal ideology is always chucked out the window at the first sign of societal stress.

It's Facism or communism or what ever Isis is practicing if the crisis is specificly invoked to cause the stress.  Hitler need the Jew problem to gain power.  Mao needed the Weastern Imperial powers to maintain the revolution.  If I knew more about the French revolution I could tell you what Robespierre needed to maintain the Terror.  

When Trump attacks someone to bolster his rating and maitian control of the house durning midterm elections, that will be an act in line with Facism (though not necessarily a Facist act).  

Authors always cause the fictional crisis to their fictional people.  That doesn't mean they are always Facist.  I will have to think more about the next link in the logic chain.

* stations archers to cover exits *
* sets thread on fire *

Quote from: Rincewind1;968918What the crying fuck is going on in this thread.

A glowing example of what happens when you mix fun with politics...also a unhealthy dose of something from 1989, who may find he needs a much earlier date to represent his views.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;968904In-character or out-of-character?

   Pelgrane has been shifting steadily in an openly left-wing direction over the past few months, with things like the #Feminism anthology and their "Gaming for Political Activism" seminar at GenCon, but I'd like more context.
.

Most defeniatly out-of-character under a section headed Does Dex Have to Be a Straight White Guy?  The explanation of SWG in my post above was added by me.  The use of the SWG label and the fact that it does not say SWG characters shows the authors utter contempt of straight white men and that violence done to them is a source of humour.

Quote from: waltshumate;968969Most defeniatly out-of-character under a section headed Does Dex Have to Be a Straight White Guy?  The explanation of SWG in my post above was added by me.  The use of the SWG label and the fact that it does not say SWG characters shows the authors utter contempt of straight white men and that violence done to them is a source of humour.

That is pretty screwed up. Only way I can think of where that statement might be passable if it was  referring to the trend that only characters that are safe to depict as straight up bad guys is straight white dudes in the current social environment, which is pretty true in a tongue in cheek manner.  But that doesn't sound like context for this at all.

QuoteMost defeniatly out-of-character under a section headed Does Dex Have to Be a Straight White Guy? The explanation of SWG in my post above was added by me. The use of the SWG label and the fact that it does not say SWG characters shows the authors utter contempt of straight white men and that violence done to them is a source of humour.

Can we get the full quote, please?

Quote from: Rincewind1;968918What the crying fuck is going on in this thread.

Johnny Ringo!!! Why you look like someone just walked over your grave!

;)

I think they're talking about Tombstone. Leftist Clantons and Conservtive Earps duking it out over the rules for tabletop-games with Anarchist Holiday's spoiling shit because they can.

It's all a big metaphor for civilization I think.

Edit: on the plus-side, Holden Shearer implied everyone that doesn't agree with him in discussing politics may be a literal Nazi racist yesterday. Which was about as close as he'll get to calling me a Nazi racist directly - even though I asked him directly. Typical. Is there a name for Asian Nazi?

Quote from: tenbones;969044Is there a name for Asian Nazi?

Not yet but we have some creative people on this thread...may as well make it useful :p

Imperial Japanese?  
Or is it Nipponese?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;968367Man, how fragile of a snowflake do you need to be for women to threaten you this much?

While I personally am not at the point where I'd boycott a publisher just because they did some dumb virtue signaling hiring, I think your mistake here is conflating women with this grab-bag of SJW/progressive nitwits.

Quote from: tenbones;969044Johnny Ringo!!! Why you look like someone just walked over your grave!

;)

I think they're talking about Tombstone. Leftist Clantons and Conservtive Earps duking it out over the rules for tabletop-games with Anarchist Holiday's spoiling shit because they can.

It's all a big metaphor for civilization I think.

Edit: on the plus-side, Holden Shearer implied everyone that doesn't agree with him in discussing politics may be a literal Nazi racist yesterday. Which was about as close as he'll get to calling me a Nazi racist directly - even though I asked him directly. Typical. Is there a name for Asian Nazi?

Link?

Quote from: tenbones;969044Edit: on the plus-side, Holden Shearer implied everyone that doesn't agree with him in discussing politics may be a literal Nazi racist yesterday.

He implied I was a wanna be rapist for disagreeing him over social rules a few years ago.

QuoteIs there a name for Asian Nazi?

That sounds like the opening line of a joke you should only tell around people you know very well. :D

Quote from: Warboss Squee;969063Link?

It's on Mark Rein-Hagens FB page.

Quote from: tenbones;969102It's on Mark Rein-Hagens FB page.

If you don't mind, what's the gist of the exchange?

Quote from: 1989;968502Is there a name for Asian Nazi?

Uyoku dantai is the closest I can think of. I don't think you really fit in with them though, whatever Holden might say.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;968424Then there's Adam Koebel. Total queer.

You say that like it's a bad thing :D

Quote from: S'mon;968473A lot of people are defensively conformist, women especially. I have a female friend who I recall posted a very sensible, insightful post about male/female difference (I think it was re romance) and received a lot of abuse from her SJW 'friends'. Now she only posts left-liberal boilerplate. I have a female work colleague who is pretty darn 'based' in private, but on Facebook is all 'refugees welcome!'

This is true, ironically because of the very social conditioning #Feminists claim to rally against.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;968484The nice thing about RPGs is that it's very difficult to make them more political than the group wants them to be.

Even further, those politics are a product of the players, not the game.

Quote from: Spinachcat;968670For better or worse, the continued success of Paizo and WW prove SJW RPG material has an audience. And if a market exists, someone will produce product for that audience.

I'm beginning to suspect a larger chunk of their sales comes from people who buy despite all this nonsense.

Quote from: Spinachcat;968670That link was so sad. Turning ConTessa into some form of misguided activism where gamers are slotted into various "identities" is the exact opposite of inclusion.  Real inclusion is "all who wish to play are welcome to play", which BTW is how all non-SJW conventions have always been run.

Yeah, sad to see #Contessa change their mission from supporting women to excluding #CisWhiteHetDudes through all their new and oddly specific categories.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;968769There's a Gor RPG? Fuck my life.

Too late :D

Quote from: S'mon;968773The lifestyle Gor online fanbase seems about 80% female.

Most fanbases for 'rapey' media tend to be, and the only explanation for it the #SJWs can give me is #InternalizedMisogyny.

Quote from: Headless;968865I think the idea that 45% of the population is a drag on the economy is facist.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;968875Communists believe that society would be better if the bourgeois were killed off.
SJWs believe that humanity would be better if white males were killed off.
Wahabbists believe that society would be better if all infidels were killed off.

Believing that utopia is right around the corner if the wrong people are killed off is a common theme of apocalyptic doomsday utopianism, not fascism in particular.

It might not have anything to do with #Fascism in particular, but it's a core tenet of #Facism.

#WordsMeanThings

Quote from: tenbones;969044on the plus-side, Holden Shearer implied everyone that doesn't agree with him in discussing politics may be a literal Nazi racist yesterday.

No he didn't. He just implied #Nazis can be identified by their #Swastika tattoos.

Who knew it was that simple all along.

Quote from: Baulderstone;969150Uyoku dantai is the closest I can think of. I don't think you really fit in with them though, whatever Holden might say.

I don't always agree with him but I can't see tenbones fitting under "nazi" in any fashion.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;969177No he didn't. He just implied #Nazis can be identified by their #Swastika tattoos.

Who knew it was that simple all along.

tenbones has a swastika tattoo?

(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/014/033/knowing.jpg)

Quote from: tenbones;969044Johnny Ringo!!! Why you look like someone just walked over your grave!

;)

I think they're talking about Tombstone. Leftist Clantons and Conservtive Earps duking it out over the rules for tabletop-games with Anarchist Holiday's spoiling shit because they can.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0c/fd/00/0cfd00a0f0e7c246b6c750c0337a8fe6.jpg)

The cup twirling after latin shit talking has to be one of the top five greatest moments in film.

Quote from: 1989;968364Who is left?

Gurps? Hero? Small press?

Quote from: 1989;968364How do I avoid these male-feminist game designers?

Last year I realized that what I'm doing with RPGs (mostly Hero) has nothing to do with TBP, Onyx Path, or SJWs. It's just me and my friends having fun. Don't buy their product, don't post in their forums, and don't look back.

Quote from: Aglondir;969192Don't buy their product, don't post in their forums, and don't look back.

I like it.

Quote from: Nexus;969181I don't always agree with him but I can't see tenbones fitting under "nazi" in any fashion.

Agreed. If I somehow sounded like I was suggesting he was a Nazi, i certainly didn't mean to.

Quote from: Aglondir;969192Gurps? Hero? Small press?


Last year I realized that what I'm doing with RPGs (mostly Hero) has nothing to do with TBP, Onyx Path, or SJWs. It's just me and my friends having fun. Don't buy their product, don't post in their forums, and don't look back.

A big reason I've gone back to Palladium Books so hard. I don't know Kevin's politics and they never come up. His games are all about fun.

I'm fine with political writers or gaming as long as it isn't partisan.

I play Palladium Books and GURPS and politics never comes up and it's been great. Also, these systems are ignored by the internet based gaming intelligentsia, which I think is a big driver in no bullshit being in the communities. I always have a feeling that most of the people I cannot stand on these communities, their actually hobby is posting in these communities and policing games like they work for the USSR and not actually playing games.

Also Palladium Fantasy > D&D 5E. Between Rifts, Palladium Fantasy, and RoboTech, Palladium makes me very happy.

Quote from: Ulairi;969258I always have a feeling that most of the people I cannot stand on these communities, their actually hobby is posting in these communities and policing games like they work for the USSR and not actually playing games.

Yeah, a lot of them are Commissars, political officers.  They may do some work here and there, but they know the right people, and say the right things, which gives them way more visibility then they deserve to do their real job: to increase their own power and position.  Of course, in this case, some of the "Generals" are card-carrying party apparatchiks too.

Quote from: Baulderstone;969216Agreed. If I somehow sounded like I was suggesting he was a Nazi, i certainly didn't mean to.

Not at all. I'm was just a little baffled why it would even occur to Holden to imply that about him.

Is much of any fiction really apolitical anymore or is it more the reader in question agrees with the politics it has so closely that it doesn't register, like a fish doesn't know its in water?

Quote from: 1989;969022Can we get the full quote, please?

"Does Dex Have to Be a Straight White Guy?

No, he doesn’t. But unlike Viv and Langston’s scenarios, we have not carefully flagged sequences that might feel weird if played with a flipped identity.

The thing about SWGs is that they make great punching bags.

And in the source material, noir protagonists get savagely brutalized — physically and otherwise — a lot. When a corrupt cop or a brutal gangster gives the default version of Dex the works, most players and GMs will see the scene through the lens of those stylized genre tropes. The moment won’t take on a symbolic weight it can’t support. If you’re playing Dex as LGBT, a woman, or a person of color, that same sequence could easily evoke a history of oppression and violence in a way that overwhelms the rest of the narrative."

There is no need for "The thing about SWGs is that they make great punching bags." for this section to get its point across, by including it and the fact that it is in a paragraph of its own shows what the author thinks of straight white guys.  Would a concentration camp gassing scene in a scenario be ok if only Straight White Guys were getting gassed?

Quote from: waltshumate;969268"Does Dex Have to Be a Straight White Guy?

Thanks. I suspected that might be what they were going for; I see their point, but that sentence stuck in the middle there does seem almost gleeful as opposed to 'the hero can get beat up without invoking darker themes' message of the rest of it.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;969271Thanks. I suspected that might be what they were going for; I see their point, but that sentence stuck in the middle there does seem almost gleeful as opposed to 'the hero can get beat up without invoking darker themes' message of the rest of it.

Agreed. It was a very clumsy (ironically Insensitive would describe it) way to put it. But its not a false point.

Quote from: Aglondir;969192Gurps? Hero? Small press?

Pinnacle and Troll Lord Games also seem to avoid taking public stances on partisan and controversial issues. (Is that specific enough to avoid the "everything is political" argument?)

QuoteLast year I realized that what I'm doing with RPGs (mostly Hero) has nothing to do with TBP, Onyx Path, or SJWs. It's just me and my friends having fun. Don't buy their product, don't post in their forums, and don't look back.

  There is something to be said for using older, out of print, and abandoned products if one wants to avoid having to put up with contemporary controversies, or in worse cases, genuflecting to the idols of the Apostate West. :)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;969273There is something to be said for using older, out of print, and abandoned products if one wants to avoid having to put up with contemporary controversies, or in worse cases, genuflecting to the idols of the Apostate West. :)

So true. The same thing can be said of English Bible translations.

Quote from: 1989;969281The same thing can be said of English Bible translations.

I'm afraid I don't follow?

Quote from: Nexus;969284I'm afraid I don't follow?

Just to choose one example, the NIV (New International Version), which was/is the biggest evangelical translation, and biggest-selling translation still -- 1984 vs 2011 edition:

Nahum 3:13

1984: Look at your troops -- they are all women!
2011: Look at your troops -- they are all weaklings!

2 Timothy 2:12

1984:  I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
2011:  I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

This doesn't even touch upon the removal of male-generic pronouns.

Quote from: 1989;969285Just to choose one example, the NIV (New International Version), which was/is the biggest evangelical translation, and biggest-selling translation still -- 1984 vs 2011 edition:

Nahum 3:13

1984: Look at your troops -- they are all women!
2011: Look at your troops -- they are all weaklings!

2 Timothy 2:12

1984:  I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
2011:  I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

This doesn't even touch upon the removal of male-generic pronouns.

Oh, okay. Thank you.

Quote from: Nexus;969286Oh, okay. Thank you.

Statements offensive to women or reducing women's power have been altered:

Nahum: It's offensive to women to say "he throws like a girl". So, you can't say that anymore. It's offensive to say that the soliders of a nation are like "women". So, have to change it and remove the word woman. It is changed to weaklings, which was the intent of the statement. But, as an English reader, you will now never know that the original Hebrew said "woman", and that the passage was saying that the troops were as weak as women. You just see "weaklings" -- nothing about women. Like a magic eraser!

Timothy: have authority vs assume authority. Now, a woman can say, well, I can teach a man as a leader in a church because I didn't "assume" authority, rather I had it "given to me rightfully". So, everything is a-okay. Hence, the door is open for women priests/pastors.

Quote from: 1989;969287Statements offensive to women or reducing women's power have been altered

That's why "Traduttore, traditore" or "Translator, traitor" is about right.

One one hand, following the path of being as direct as possible ends up with convoluted grammar and odd word choice which can make it unpleasant to read in the new language.

But then any other direction risks insertion of someone else's 'intent' into the translation.

Some translators may want to 'simulate' the experience of reading the original. A good example of this is when I handed my wife the first translation of many of HP Lovecraft's work into Japanese. She gave up and just read the original English, because the translator selected really archaic Kanji that most well read Japanese people don't know.

Some translators just go for making it as easy to read as possible - just how 'Reader's Digest' do you want?

And yet others have a particular mission in mind, like making an ancient poem into a poem that either works structurally (like many alliterative translations of Beowulf), or uses a more pleasing poetic form.

You really have to decide how important accuracy is to you and choose accordingly. It always struck me as odd that ardent believers would read something that isn't striving for extremely high accuracy. But then, the more 'readable' or 'approachable' something is, the more the reading experience is about the reader and less about the intent of the original author.

Quote from: 1989;969287Statements offensive to women or reducing women's power have been altered:

Nahum: It's offensive to women to say "he throws like a girl". So, you can't say that anymore.

Women have less muscle power than men so the statement is correct. Look the worlds record for heavyweight lifting for both men and women and tell me what you see.

Feminism, lgbt, sjw, political correctness are all means to an end, they are used as the spearhead for something. They are like smoke coming from fire, you should look for yourself where does this smoke comes from and who does it serve, and believe me it doesn't serve any of them.

Edit: All I am saying is stop shooting the messenger because that's exactly what they want you to do.

Quote from: John Scott;969294Women have less muscle power than men so the statement is correct. Look the worlds record for heavyweight lifting for both men and women and tell me what you see.

Feminism, lgbt, sjw, political correctness are all means to an end, they are used as the spearhead for something. They are like smoke coming from fire, you should look for yourself where does this smoke comes from and who does it serve, and believe me it doesn't serve any of them.

Edit: All I am saying is stop shooting the messenger because that's exactly what they want you to do.

So, who is this smoke serving? I mean, I'm myself betting on Illuminati, albeit I'll hedge my bet with Jews and NWO.

Quote from: Rincewind1;969299So, who is this smoke serving? I mean, I'm myself betting on Illuminati, albeit I'll hedge my bet with Jews and NWO.

That's what bugs me about this sjw/extremist leftism. What's the end game? I'm conservative, so I know our side is planning to basically enslave everyone and control the world with an iron fist ala Cobra Commander.

But eventually, the leftist shaming isn't going to work. The riots are going to get stomped out with extreme prejudice, and they are going to lose.

Quote from: Rincewind1;969299So, who is this smoke serving? I mean, I'm myself betting on Illuminati, albeit I'll hedge my bet with Jews and NWO.

I am going to quote someone who I consider a great man (and I am not even a US citizen)

"To win battles you do not beat weapons - you beat the soul of man of the enemy man."
George S. Patton

I believe that this smart and brave American saw the future and the things to come for the next generations.

The "end" of leftism is a Marxist utopia where nobody ever has to feel socially awkward, have a sad day, be sexually unfulfilled, experience want or need, be shamed, lose at anything, etc. When you're someone on the margins of society, the idea that destroy all the norms and institutions of the society will make you happy, respected, and comfortable is intrinsically attractive.

Since this can't be accomplished due to how reality actually works, every time the egalitarian utopia fails to emerge from the ashes of whatever the left most recently destroyed, they try to figure out the next thing they need to burn down in order to create paradise.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;969302The "end" of leftism is a Marxist utopia where nobody ever has to feel socially awkward, have a sad day, be sexually unfulfilled, experience want or need, be shamed, lose at anything, etc. When you're someone on the margins of society, the idea that destroy all the norms and institutions of the society will make you happy, respected, and comfortable is intrinsically attractive.

So, Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek's Federation, then.

The end is not getting raped.

Equal pay.

Equal opportunity.

Ability to speek and be respected.

They are going after comics, movies, role playing and vedio games becuase if we can't at least imagine a world like that it will be hard to make it happen.

Quote from: jeff37923;969305So, Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek's Federation, then.

Yeah, but with uglier, fatter women.

Quote from: Headless;969307They are going after comics, movies, role playing and vedio games becuase if we can't at least imagine a world like that it will be hard to make it happen.

Low hanging fruit argument, notwithstanding.

Quote from: 1989;969285Just to choose one example, the NIV (New International Version)...

This doesn't even touch upon the removal of male-generic pronouns.

Unless you go back to the Hebrew or Greek you have no idea that 84' translation was more accurate. The Bible in English, as with all ancient documents, is riddled with inaccuracies due to translation errors or decisions made by the translator.

For translations from Hebrew the best source is actually the very modern translations by Robert Atler, he includes a lot of notes explaining the subtlties of the Herbrew that were often lost in the later translations.

Quote from: S'mon;968721Eh, "Californian pagan shaman" =/= SJW!!!!

Isn't the Neo-Nazi church-burning game author Varg Vikernes a Heathenist Rune Priest? That's just a pagan shaman of a slightly different revivalist cult. And there are tons of pagans who aren't political at all. Unless I see Stafford engaging in SJW tactics it'd be completely unfair to call him an SJW based on his beliefs. However silly I think they are.

Pretty safe to say that Stafford is closer to the typical Califorian lefty new age pagan than white supremacist pseduo-Aryan pagans.

Quote from: Lynn;969289That's why "Traduttore, traditore" or "Translator, traitor" is about right.

One one hand, following the path of being as direct as possible ends up with convoluted grammar and odd word choice which can make it unpleasant to read in the new language.

But then any other direction risks insertion of someone else's 'intent' into the translation.

Any translation does indeed introduce bias.  And biblical translations are undertaken with a deliberate theological bent, on purpose.  The literal Greek translation is, as you point out, unreadable, because Greek syntax is so different.

If some walking bipedal shitstain has trouble with a translation of Scripture that does not automatically make women subsurvient and inferior to men, I have no problem showing them the door.

On the other hand, I'd put that asswipe on my "Chew The Crunchy Brown Spots In My Underwear" list on about his third post.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;969308Yeah, but with uglier, fatter women.

Wow, you're a real walking, talking piece of shit.

Grow, little Ignore List!  Grow and be strong!

Quote from: Snowman0147;968719This pisses me off.  Trump had shown nothing, but love for the LGTB community.  Even the shooting that killed fifty people it was Trump that talk about doing something to defend the LGTB community.  What was Hillary and Bernie doing?  Fuck all nothing because they were too dishonest to talk about it.

So yeah fuck you to anyone that thinks Trump hate LGTB.

I don't think Trump hates the gays personally but he's more than happy to throw them under the bus to play to the GOP's base. Wait and see.

Quote from: jeff37923;968761What has Trump actually done which has an affect on the GBLT community besides getting elected? What anti-GBLT executive orders has he passed?

:confused:Is this what happens when you only get your news from Breibart.

Trump at first supported trans access to bathrooms and then once in power revoked them. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-transgender-student-bathroom-protection-rights-nbc-today-video-scrapped-barack-obama-a7595766.html)

Typical example of him flip-flopping happily to satisfy the GOP's base.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;969322Any translation does indeed introduce bias.  And biblical translations are undertaken with a deliberate theological bent, on purpose.  The literal Greek translation is, as you point out, unreadable, because Greek syntax is so different.

If some walking bipedal shitstain has trouble with a translation of Scripture that does not automatically make women subsurvient and inferior to men, I have no problem showing them the door.

On the other hand, I'd put that asswipe on my "Chew The Crunchy Brown Spots In My Underwear" list on about his third post.

On the one hand, I see no problem with seeking to advance the context of a religion beyond Bronze Age cultural morality.  At the same time though, isn't "timewashing" the translation missing a chance for the religion to teach people how to actually apply these books to their lives?

Quote from: Voros;969319Unless you go back to the Hebrew or Greek you have no idea that 84' translation was more accurate. The Bible in English, as with all ancient documents, is riddled with inaccuracies due to translation errors or decisions made by the translator.

For translations from Hebrew the best source is actually the very modern translations by Robert Atler, he includes a lot of notes explaining the subtlties of the Herbrew that were often lost in the later translations.

The Hebrew clearly reads women. The standard word for women. All other English translations correctly it as "women" ... except when we arrive in the 21st century ... and we need to not hurt the feelings of the special snowflakes.

Quote from: 1989;968765Has anyone played the Gor RPG? Somebody mentioned the company who makes it on this thread.

?? So gays are degenerates but BDSM is just kinky good fun? Alrighty...

Quote from: Voros;969330:confused:Is this what happens when you only get your news from Breibart.

Trump at first supported trans access to bathrooms and then once in power revoked them. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-transgender-student-bathroom-protection-rights-nbc-today-video-scrapped-barack-obama-a7595766.html)

Typical example of him flip-flopping happily to satisfy the GOP's base.

So, states are not considered good enough to handle this decision but the Federal Government is? This is part of shrinking the size of government, by handing the decision making of this subject back to states, it removes however many bureaucrats from the Federal Government required to monitor and enforce this. It says so right in the article you quoted.

Quote from: jeff37923;968808The Gor novels (all 33 of them) are sword and planet fantasy stories first and foremost written from a Nietzschean standpoint where slavery is common and usually applied to women.

Poor old Nietzche was abused enough by the Nazis do we have to drag him into Gor too?

Quote from: 1989;969344The Hebrew clearly reads women. The standard word for women. All other English translations correctly it as "women" ... except when we arrive in the 21st century ... and we need to not hurt the feelings of the special snowflakes.

'Clearly' as in you can read Hebrew and have read it in the original Hebrew?

Quote from: jeff37923;969347So, states are not considered good enough to handle this decision but the Federal Government is? This is part of shrinking the size of government, by handing the decision making of this subject back to states, it removes however many bureaucrats from the Federal Government required to monitor and enforce this. It says so right in the article you quoted.

Nice dodge. You asked for an example of an action that was to the detriment of the queer community.

I not only supplied it but also proof that Trump very recently held a different opinon on it.

I guess he found his sudden belief in states rights the same way he suddenly found religion.

Quote from: 1989;969344The Hebrew clearly reads women. The standard word for women. All other English translations correctly it as "women" ... except when we arrive in the 21st century ... and we need to not hurt the feelings of the special snowflakes.

What is the hebrew word in question? I don't really have a dog in this fight either way, it is entirely possible something has been translated to suit current sensibilities, but I think this is something where being accurate is pretty important. Do you know ancient Hebrew? I don't know ancient Hebrew, and I think this is where a lot of these discussions often break down because people use google and think it equips them to comment on ancient linguistics (not suggesting this is what you are doing, but this happens so much online in these kinds of arguments).

I would look up the Atler translation and commentary but he hasn't gotten to Nahum yet, it is a pretty minor book.

Quote from: Voros;969352Nice dodge. You asked for an example of an action that was to the detriment of the queer community.

I not only supplied it but also proof that Trump very recently held a different opinon on it.

I guess he found his sudden belief in states rights the same way he suddenly found religion.

You call it a dodge, fair enough. However, you have not shown how this effects the queer community in a negative manner.

Are you serious? Ask a trans person.

Quote from: Voros;969352Nice dodge. You asked for an example of an action that was to the detriment of the queer community.

I not only supplied it but also proof that Trump very recently held a different opinon on it.

I guess he found his sudden belief in states rights the same way he suddenly found religion.

"Forget it, Jake. It's Pungency Town."

Quote from: fearsomepirate;969308Yeah, but with uglier, fatter women.

I know I should not laugh at this, but I could not stop myself.

I like the way you think and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

It's the commies, hipsters, SJW's, goths, and punks who give real leftists like me a bad name.

Anime rules, Marvel and DC suck. Deal with it. I'll take Bible Black and Urotsukidoji over Gor any day of the week. Yeah, hentai may have some misogynistic elements, but at least it is honest about what it is and doesn't try to hide it underneath a veneer of pseudo-intellectual philosophy bullshit like Gor does.

Also, I've never heard of Urotsukidoji fans turning it into a dangerous and unhealthy lifestyle. I know actual women who have been injured due to Gorean bullshit. I don't know of anything like that coming from Legend of the Overfiend.

THAT is why I hate Gor, it's not the smut in and of itself, it's the Gorean lifestyle freaks who take it from mere kink and fetish to a sick disgusting criminal subculture.

Quote from: Voros;969371Are you serious? Ask a trans person.

I have. I know a few. Depending on what they are feeling at the moment, I have heard just about every answer you can imagine, including wildly different ones from the same person.

Doc why don't you sign up and go serve in the Middle East before insulting Headless, who actually has served, as a SJW Commie Hipster?

As someone whose closest friend is a closeted trans-man (biologically female but wishes to be male), but is also a great and caring human being as well, and a dear friend, I generally don't touch the transgender debate with a ten foot pole.

I'm not trans, so it's not my fight. I don't have a dog in the race and won't get involved beyond saying that I don't like the SJW's who pretend to be trans or claim to be genderqueer or non-binary (whatever the fuck those things mean) to score oppression brownie points because they are fakers who make a mockery of real trans people.

Also, I did not know Headless was a veteran. I apologize for my remarks and please hope the two of you forgive me for my ignorance. I'm having a really bad day today.

EDIT-I amended my post to remove any insults to Headless.

Quote from: jeff37923;969384I have. I know a few. Depending on what they are feeling at the moment, I have heard just about every answer you can imagine, including wildly different ones from the same person.

I've never met a trans person who didn't support it, although I'm sure there are some who don't, just as there are some queers who don't support gay marriage (usually for radical reasons). That doesn't mean that the majority don't support such measures, clearly they do.

Quote from: Voros;969319Unless you go back to the Hebrew or Greek you have no idea that 84' translation was more accurate. The Bible in English, as with all ancient documents, is riddled with inaccuracies due to translation errors or decisions made by the translator.

For translations from Hebrew the best source is actually the very modern translations by Robert Atler, he includes a lot of notes explaining the subtlties of the Herbrew that were often lost in the later translations.

In the original Hebrew it was "women", yes.

Thanks, I wasn't doubting it as much as doubting that 1989 actually knew it for a fact.

Quote from: Voros;969388I've never met a trans person who didn't support it, although I'm sure there are some who don't, just as there are some queers who don't support gay marriage (usually for radical reasons). That doesn't mean that the majority don't support such measures, clearly they do.

OK, I will go ahead based on this assumption you present.

How does moving this from being a Federal decision to a State decision make it a detriment to the queer community?

Are you afraid that Trans people are going to be told that they cannot use ANY bathrooms now?

Quote from: Voros;969388I've never met a trans person who didn't support it, although I'm sure there are some who don't, just as there are some queers who don't support gay marriage (usually for radical reasons). That doesn't mean that the majority don't support such measures, clearly they do.

True, also the fact that Trump selected a Neo-Puritan Theodosius wannabe like Mike Pence scared the shit out of the LGBT community and as such many LGBT individuals who would otherwise lean conservative or centrist ended up supporting Hillary Clinton despite Trump personally not having any ill will towards the queer community himself. Milo Yiannopolous and Caitlyn Jenner were the exceptions to the rule.

I mean, I am bi and I sure as hell didn't vote for Orange Berlusconi (I voted for Jill Stein instead) but that's because Donald Trump is an oaf and a ridiculous meme candidate. That being said, the fact that Mike Pence is a known dominionist theocrat on the same level as Cotton Mather, Jack Chick, and the Westboro Baptist Church did sort of seal the deal.

Because in the quite likely event that Trump gets removed from office over this whole foreign interference debacle, we'll have a Puritan redneck theocrat in office who will wage war against things such as teaching evolution in the schools, celebrating Halloween, and acknowledging the existence of climate change (to be fair, Trump is also guilty of climate change denial though).

As a Roman pagan polytheist who loves Halloween and hates the Bible, I'll probably get lynched or burned at the stake if Mike Pence gets into office. The GOP-controlled Congress is more likely to support someone like Pence and will collaborate more with him than with Trump.

Leave it to the Republicans to let the Russians back into the pantry. Now we're heading back to the Puritan times all over again.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;969355What is the hebrew word in question? I don't really have a dog in this fight either way, it is entirely possible something has been translated to suit current sensibilities, but I think this is something where being accurate is pretty important. Do you know ancient Hebrew? I don't know ancient Hebrew, and I think this is where a lot of these discussions often break down because people use google and think it equips them to comment on ancient linguistics (not suggesting this is what you are doing, but this happens so much online in these kinds of arguments).

I read my bible in the original Hebrew, when I feel like it. The word used in Nahum 3:13 is "nashim", which is very definitely "women".

Trans rights groups view this as a negative thing as most state governments are controlled by the anti-queer GOP.

Betty DeVos opposed this decision but Sessions pushed it through above her objections. She insisted on issuing a statement that despite this decision trans and gay students were not to be bullied, etc. Why do you think this Republican woman felt to do that after this decison if it wasn't deterimental to trans people?

Do you really need this explained to you? Are you now claiming that you need evidence the GOP are anti-queer?

So now that proof of an anti-queer action has been supplied are you claiming that it isn't anti-queer? Despite the vast majority of queer people viewing it that way?

Quote from: Voros;969371Are you serious? Ask a trans person.

0.3% of the population is trans. The vast majority of people don't actually know any trans people off the internet. So asking a trans person, for most people, isn't possible due to how extremely small the actual population is.

In my opinion, I feel as if the Bible is an instruction manual for fascism and tyranny BUT that is just my opinion and nothing more. For others, it gives them peace and comfort, and as such, I will not take that away from them. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and religion is a generally subjective matter.

I may not believe what you may believe, but I will fight for your right to believe in it. If Jesus gives you the same peace that Jupiter and Juno give me, why should anyone take that away from you.

That's why I hate both the SJW's and the Alt-Right, as both sides hate religious freedom.

The SJW hipsters are godless communists and the Mike Pence crowd are Neo-Puritans.

Quote from: Voros;969400Trans rights groups view this as a negative thing as most state governments are controlled by the anti-Queer GOP.

Betty DeVos opposed this decision but Sessions pushed it through above her objections. She insisted on issuing a statement that despite this decision trans and gay students were not to be bullied, etc. Why do you think this Republican woman felt to do that after this decison if it wasn't deterimental to trans people?

Do you really need this explained to you? Are you now claiming that you need evidence the GOP are anti-Queer?

Bolding mine.

Yes, I am.

"The GOP hates queers." has been a rather effective piece of propaganda used by the left to garner support for their causes and candidates out of fear and scare tactics. I do not think it is true and require proof instead of empty rhetoric.

Quote from: jeff37923;969407Bolding mine.

Yes, I am.

"The GOP hates queers." has been a rather effective piece of propaganda used by the left to garner support for their causes and candidates out of fear and scare tactics. I do not think it is true and require proof instead of empty rhetoric.

Have you seen some of these bills the GOP are trying to pass at the state and federal levels? They want to turn 21st Century United States into 17th Century Massachusetts Bay Colony. First they target the Queer and Muslim communities, next come the Intellectuals and Pagans.

If things continue the way they're going, we'll be seeing people lynched for witchcraft, celebrating Halloween, and acknowledging the existence of climate change.

Voros is right, the GOP is trying to actively hurt the LGBT community because let's face it, the majority of the GOP are far-right Puritan Protestant Whores who are pushing for Satanic Panic 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Still doesn't excuse the fear-mongering that the SJW Left does to win the LGBT vote though.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;969408Have you seen some of these bills the GOP are trying to pass at the state and federal levels? They want to turn 21st Century United States into 17th Century Massachusetts Bay Colony. First they target the Queer and Muslim communities, next come the Intellectuals and Pagans.

If things continue the way they're going, we'll be seeing people lynched for witchcraft, celebrating Halloween, and acknowledging the existence of climate change.

Voros is right, the GOP is trying to actively hurt the LGBT community because let's face it, the majority of the GOP are far-right Puritan Protestant Whores who are pushing for Satanic Panic 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Still doesn't excuse the fear-mongering that the SJW Left does to win the LGBT vote though.

A response driven out of fear, thank you.

Give me examples of some of these bills that are actually becoming state laws and are not just getting shot down in committee.

That's laughable. Why don't you do the research yourself. You hadn't heard about the trans repeal even though it got lots of coverage, I can't be educating you about the GOP's long standing opposition to every single advance on gay rights in the US of A.

Quote from: Ulairi;9694010.3% of the population is trans. The vast majority of people don't actually know any trans people off the internet. So asking a trans person, for most people, isn't possible due to how extremely small the actual population is.

Not if you live in a medium-sized+ city or have attended higher education, which the majority of people do. If you've never met a trans person you must travel in very restricted circles.

Quote from: Voros;969412That's laughable. Why don't you do the research yourself. You hadn't heard about the trans repeal even though it got lots of coverage, I can't be educating you about the GOP's long standing opposition to every single advance on gay rights in the US of A.

If the issue of trans rights is important enough to you, then you will take the time to educate me. Who knows, you may get a convert.

EDIT: I should also add that while I had heard of the trans bathroom repeal and it being given back to states to decide, I just don't think that it is a sign of the apocalypse

Quote from: John Scott;969301I am going to quote someone who I consider a great man (and I am not even a US citizen)

"To win battles you do not beat weapons - you beat the soul of man of the enemy man."
George S. Patton

I believe that this smart and brave American saw the future and the things to come for the next generations.

Sure, but -who-, or whose interests, are those of Feminists, LGBT,  and SJW spearheading for? Come on, speak up.

Quote from: Voros;969413Not if you live in a medium-sized+ city or have attended higher education, which the majority of people do. If you've never met a trans person you must travel in very restricted circles.

I live in a large city and a Masters degree in professional accounting and have traveled extensively globally. I've seen but do not personally know a single trans person. The math favors my experience and not yours.

Quote from: Ulairi;969427I live in a large city and a Masters degree in professional accounting and have traveled extensively globally. I've seen but do not personally know a single trans person. The math favors my experience and not yours.

Didn't Jeff claim to have already asked several trans people?

Edit: Yeah back in post 233 He didn't give an exact number. But more than one.

Quote from: jeff37923;969384I have. I know a few. Depending on what they are feeling at the moment, I have heard just about every answer you can imagine, including wildly different ones from the same person.

And there's always online. I don't think they're that vanishingly rare these days. Or at least more people are publicly identifying as trans.

Quote from: Nexus;969434Didn't Jeff claim to have already asked several trans people?

And there's always online.

Three of them are online. Two in Real Life.

Quote from: Rincewind1;969422Sure, but -who-, or whose interests, are those of Feminists, LGBT,  and SJW spearheading for? Come on, speak up.

I already answered that by quoting a famous person. Let's make it more clear so more people find out.
https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_the_bolshevik_revolution-5.pdf

Quote from: Nexus;969434Didn't Jeff claim to have already asked several trans people?

Edit: Yeah back in post 233 He didn't give an exact number. But more than one.



And there's always online. I don't think they're that vanishingly rare these days. Or at least more people are publicly identifying as trans.

More common to see in real life. I just think personally knowing a trans person isn't likely. If someone works in the arts or media in NYC, LA, or San Francisco, I'm sure it's quite likely to know a trans person.

Quote from: Ulairi;969482More common to see in real life. I just think personally knowing a trans person isn't likely.

I live in a modest city in Ky and I know two people that ID as Trans in real life.

Jeff places an unreasonably high burden of proof on those making statements he disagrees with.

Quote from: Nexus;969484I live in a modest city in Ky and I know two people that ID as Trans in real life.

That's great! It doesn't impact my point at all. Statically, you are an outlier. My point isn't that they don't exist or anything. Just probability.

Just saying : go ask a trans person when they are a fraction of one precent of the population isn't a wide net.

Quote from: Voros;969350'Clearly' as in you can read Hebrew and have read it in the original Hebrew?

Actually, believe it or not, I can.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;969355What is the hebrew word in question? I don't really have a dog in this fight either way, it is entirely possible something has been translated to suit current sensibilities, but I think this is something where being accurate is pretty important. Do you know ancient Hebrew? I don't know ancient Hebrew, and I think this is where a lot of these discussions often break down because people use google and think it equips them to comment on ancient linguistics (not suggesting this is what you are doing, but this happens so much online in these kinds of arguments).

The board doesn't accept Hebrew characters.  
The word is ishshah (http://biblehub.com/hebrew/802.htm) which is woman.  
The Hebrew version of Nahum 3 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1903.htm).

Quote from: 1989;969281So true. The same thing can be said of English Bible translations.

That's one of my justifications for preferring the KJV.  Most of the political issues it supports are long dead.  That and the language is beautiful and poetic.  But no, it's not a perfect translation by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote from: Headless;969490Jeff places an unreasonably high burden of proof on those making statements he disagrees with.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Where is the proof? If you got nothing but rhetoric and lies, admit it.

Quote from: 1989;968913Feminism anthology? Are you serious?

It's hysterical and sad.
http://storytelling.pelgranepress.com/2017/04/27/feminism-about-the-games/

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;968941* stations archers to cover exits *
* sets thread on fire *

* casts Magic Missile on the archers *
* casts Resist Fire on the thread *

Quote from: Rincewind1;968918What the crying fuck is going on in this thread.

This thread shall right the stars!!

[video=youtube;bwHzmPYrROY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwHzmPYrROY[/youtube]

Quote from: tenbones;969044Is there a name for Asian Nazi?

Apparently Nazi Chic is a thing in Asia.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1072[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Ratman_tf;969059While I personally am not at the point where I'd boycott a publisher just because they did some dumb virtue signaling hiring, I think your mistake here is conflating women with this grab-bag of SJW/progressive nitwits.

I like 13th Age so I'm not going to boycott Pelgrane, but I'm happy to laugh at their bullshit and stupidity.

But you are 100% correct there is NO reason to conflate women with SJW nitwits.

Most women don't hate men. I never understood that Lena Dunham "the death of men" idiocy right before the election. Didn't anyone think for a moment that most female voters have fathers, sons, brothers, husbands or boyfriends? And maybe these female voters wouldn't celebrate the denigration of their loved ones?

Quote from: Nexus;969091He implied I was a wanna be rapist for disagreeing him over social rules a few years ago.

Disagreement is rape!

Patriarchy!

Exterminate! Exterminate!

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;969177Yeah, sad to see #Contessa change their mission from supporting women to excluding #CisWhiteHetDudes through all their new and oddly specific categories.

I find the new and oddly specific categories to be the saddest part.

It's not community building. It's dividing people into boxes. How's that ever been part of gaming?

Quote from: Aglondir;969192Don't buy their product, don't post in their forums, and don't look back.

I am not a fan of boycotts, but it is true we vote with our dollars.

And your plan is best. Having fun with friends > Wanking about politics

Quote from: Ulairi;969258A big reason I've gone back to Palladium Books so hard. I don't know Kevin's politics and they never come up. His games are all about fun.

Start a thread about the Palladium games you are playing!!

Quote from: Nexus;969266Is much of any fiction really apolitical anymore or is it more the reader in question agrees with the politics it has so closely that it doesn't register, like a fish doesn't know its in water?

Interesting point.

Anyone want to take a swing at this?

Quote from: Rincewind1;969299So, who is this smoke serving? I mean, I'm myself betting on Illuminati, albeit I'll hedge my bet with Jews and NWO.

Conspiracy bingo!

Quote from: John Scott;969478I already answered that by quoting a famous person. Let's make it more clear so more people find out.
https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_the_bolshevik_revolution-5.pdf

I'm sorry, but how does the Bolshevik revolution, considering the fall of USSR in 1989, is still relevant to modern politics? And could you elaborate more on this conspiracy - are suggesting that it exists to this day?

Quote from: jeff37923;969531Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

The GOP opposes gay rights is an extraordinary claim? My Lord.

The GOP opposes abortion. Do you need a host of links to believe that? And I guess they also need to be from sources beyond, I don't know, an actually respected news source since you dismissed every one that Nexus supplied earlier.

:confused:

Quote from: Ulairi;969427I live in a large city and a Masters degree in professional accounting and have traveled extensively globally. I've seen but do not personally know a single trans person. The math favors my experience and not yours.

I've also worked around the world and studied at a university (ohh lala) and how you could claim to not know a single trans person speaks to what a sheltered life you've obviously led. Congrats you've travelled the world but might as well of stayed at home. No wonder you're an accountant.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;969300That's what bugs me about this sjw/extremist leftism. What's the end game?

The exact same as the extreme right - a totalitarian government enforcing goodthink.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;969300But eventually, the leftist shaming isn't going to work.

Agreed.  

Quote from: Warboss Squee;969300The riots are going to get stomped out with extreme prejudice, and they are going to lose.

This would be a disaster for everyone.

Last week's "Bernie Shooter" needs to be a major wake up call. He wasn't even a Millennial.

Both the Left and Right need to work together to police their fringe elements, not celebrate them and cheer on violence.

Quote from: Headless;969307The end is not getting raped.

Equal pay.

Equal opportunity.

Ability to speek and be respected.

They are going after comics, movies, role playing and vedio games becuase if we can't at least imagine a world like that it will be hard to make it happen.

Except NONE of this is true.

If rape was a real concern, the Left would promote free pistols and krav maga lessons for all teen girls.

If rape was a real concern, the Left would be fighting any normalization of Sharia law or Muslim rape culture growing in the US. Instead of pretending white guys are the Boss Monsters, the Left would be dickstomping any "culture" that promotes genital mutilation or forces women into subservience.

Women and ethnic minorities have equal pay and equal rights. That fight was won before most SJWs were born and gay marriage is the law of the land. The wage gap is a false narrative. And let's not pretend "equal opportunity" is a thing. Opportunity has far more to do with your parent's financial class status than any biological factors.

And "ability to speak and be respected"??? You gotta be fucking kidding me. We live in an upside down era where the RIGHT are supporting free speech while the LEFT is openly advocating violence to shut down speakers. The Left should be ashamed beyond words.

The SJW garbage are coming after comics, video games and RPGs because most nerds are weak.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;969355Do you know ancient Hebrew?

I ate pastrami on rye AND lox and bagels last week. Does that count?

Quote from: jeff37923;969396How does moving this from being a Federal decision to a State decision make it a detriment to the queer community?

Depends on the state. Which kinda makes it like pre-1960s segregation. Which is bad.

Some states would be telling the trans community that they have less rights in their home state. AKA, "conform or move away"

Again, that's bad.

And I do understand the argument for State's Rights and the argument about safety.

However, I do NOT understand the Right's sudden potty fixation. Transvestites, transsexuals, transgenders have been pissing and shitting in public bathrooms OF THEIR CHOICE for a LONG time and it was never a thing on the news.

It smells of bullshit politics. Much like the Left demanding a female president. Somehow I missed the SJWs cheering on Carly Fiorina or Sarah Palin.
 

Quote from: jeff37923;969396Are you afraid that Trans people are going to be told that they cannot use ANY bathrooms now?

I imagine dudes dressed as chicks aren't going to feel welcome in the dude's potty.

Especially in high school.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;969398True, also the fact that Trump selected a Neo-Puritan Theodosius wannabe like Mike Pence scared the shit out of the LGBT community and as such many LGBT individuals who would otherwise lean conservative or centrist ended up supporting Hillary Clinton despite Trump personally not having any ill will towards the queer community himself.

THIS is a good point. I wonder about the Pence Math. I wonder how many voters were gained vs. lost due to Pence.

I don't understand the Left who think Pence will be somehow better for them than Trump. I'm sure the GOP hardliners would far prefer Pence.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;969398I'll probably get lynched or burned at the stake if Mike Pence gets into office.

NO. No you will not.

Especially if you move to New Jersey. That Puritan shit doesn't fly there.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;969405I may not believe what you may believe, but I will fight for your right to believe in it. If Jesus gives you the same peace that Jupiter and Juno give me, why should anyone take that away from you.

That sentence is so whack, but I'm with you.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;969408If things continue the way they're going, we'll be seeing people lynched for witchcraft, celebrating Halloween, and acknowledging the existence of climate change.

NO. No we will not.

Americans love witchcraft, Halloween, and boobies. That's why the Puritans lost the first time.

Quote from: Ulairi;969482If someone works in the arts or media in NYC, LA, or San Francisco, I'm sure it's quite likely to know a trans person.

Try any arts or humanities community in North America actually, plus music scenes and if you have a few gay friends and have ever gone to a bar, or visited/lived any length of time in South Asia. Or, you know, left your house.

Quote from: Spinachcat;9695969539nInteresting point.

Anyone want to take a swing at this?

When someone says fiction was apolitical who do they mean? Tolstoy? Dostoyevsky? Dickens? Swift? Melville? Hawthorne? Balzac? Flaubert?

Basically what writer can be considered apolitical? Seems to me that fiction was pretty political from the get-go.

Quote from: David Johansen;969518That's one of my justifications for preferring the KJV.  Most of the political issues it supports are long dead.  That and the language is beautiful and poetic.  But no, it's not a perfect translation by any stretch of the imagination.

For the Old Testament I very much recommend Atler's translations directly from the Hebrew. King James is a masterpiece of the English language but Atler's translation captures a lot of the simplicity of the original I think. Plus his commentary is extensive and fascinating if you're a nerd. Which I assume most of us are.

Quote from: Voros;969551When someone says fiction was apolitical who do they mean? Tolstoy? Dostoyevsky? Dickens? Swift? Melville? Hawthorne? Balzac? Flaubert?

Basically what writer can be considered apolitical? Seems to me that fiction was pretty political from the get-go.

Hells, some speculate that Homer's works were composed partially as a response to the Dorian conquest, in order for people to remember the glorious past of Trojan War and power of Hellenic unity.

Quote from: waltshumate;969268When a corrupt cop or a brutal gangster gives the default version of Dex the works, most players and GMs will see the scene through the lens of those stylized genre tropes. The moment won’t take on a symbolic weight it can’t support. If you’re playing Dex as LGBT, a woman, or a person of color, that same sequence could easily evoke a history of oppression and violence in a way that overwhelms the rest of the narrative.

#Context is everything.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;969300That's what bugs me about this sjw/extremist leftism. What's the end game?

Quote from: fearsomepirate;969302The "end" of leftism is a Marxist utopia where nobody ever has to feel socially awkward, have a sad day, be sexually unfulfilled, experience want or need, be shamed, lose at anything, etc. When you're someone on the margins of society, the idea that destroy all the norms and institutions of the society will make you happy, respected, and comfortable is intrinsically attractive.

Since this can't be accomplished due to how reality actually works, every time the egalitarian utopia fails to emerge from the ashes of whatever the left most recently destroyed, they try to figure out the next thing they need to burn down in order to create paradise.

And that's what makes it a dangerous religion.

Quote from: Headless;969307They are going after comics, movies, role playing and vedio games becuase if we can't at least imagine a world like that it will be hard to make it happen.

No, they're going after them because *those are the only places their vision of reality is actually possible*. And they dismiss 'realism' when it comes to the things they don't agree with (like women's position in medieval cultures), while demanding it when it comes to the things they do (like out of shape superheroes).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;969322If some walking bipedal shitstain has trouble with a translation of Scripture that does not automatically make women subsurvient and inferior to men, I have no problem showing them the door.

Then perhaps you can suggest one which *doesn't*, as the #OldTestament is one of the most genuinely #Misogynistic pieces of literature I've ever encountered.

Also, is the #Catholic church allowing female priests now? I haven't been following.

Quote from: Ulairi;9694010.3% of the population is trans. The vast majority of people don't actually know any trans people off the internet. So asking a trans person, for most people, isn't possible due to how extremely small the actual population is.

#Fandom has a disproportionate number of #Transpeople participating when compared to the average.

Quote from: DocJones;969515The board doesn't accept Hebrew characters.

That's because of #Chinese spammers :p (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36761-Non-English-characters-allowed-in-user-names-but-not-posts&p=958669&viewfull=1#post958669)

...

Perhaps #Asians are #Nazis after all.

Quote from: Spinachcat;969539Apparently Nazi Chic is a thing in Asia.

(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1072)

Yes, but why is he marrying a robot that was found in the trash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobits)?!? I mean if we're going to consider the #Nazi thing, shouldn't we consider everything else?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;969556#Context is everything.
No, they're going after them because *those are the only places their vision of reality is actually possible*. And they dismiss 'realism' when it comes to the things they don't agree with (like women's position in medieval cultures), while demanding it when it comes to the things they do (like out of shape superheroes).

Note that the left has long ago left behind any factual or scientific basis for its claims and instead relies on shaming. It's not "the facts prove it;" it's "you're a bad person if you don't believe." That's why more and more sane people are starting to notice that it's a religion, and a particularly harmful one whose latest rite is injecting little boys with estrogen and castrating them.
 
We've gone way past "let's not treat women like property" to "let's pretend sexual dimorphism isn't real," and "let's shut down neuroscience that disaggregates data by sex," and "let's pretend being a woman is just a 'feeling' that you have in your soul." And it's "let's pretend...or I will fucking ruin your life."

I've had two trans kids and one openly homosexual kid in my store.  I suspect there are a few more closeted homosexuals but wouldn't hazard a guess at who's who.  The one trans kid was in my GURPS Hogwarts campaign for over a year and in my D&D campaign.  The other came and played once and never came back.

Quote from: Voros;969550Try any arts or humanities community in North America actually, plus music scenes and if you have a few gay friends and have ever gone to a bar, or visited/lived any length of time in South Asia. Or, you know, left your house.

Been to plenty of bars. Still don't personally know a trans person. Again, you've moving the goal posts you mental midget. The issue is not have SEEN a trans person it's having a personal relationship with one. I've seen them. Just don't know them. There is a difference. And yes, as I said above, probability increase if someone is in the arts (and what has turned into the humanities). I don't work in those industries. I've been to South Asia a few times and again: still don't personally know any trans people.

I'm too busy raising my family and working to worry about getting a virtue merit badge for having a "trans" friend.  0.03% of the population. It's more likely to know somebody who has a peanut allergy than someone who is trans. Again, the probability changes as someone moves into the arts. I don't know what your beef is with people not personally knowing a population that is essentially a rounding error when it comes to demographics.

Simon Rogers
Simon is the co-founder and joint owner of Pelgrane Press. He works part time for Pelgrane Press and co-owns ProFantasy Software Ltd with Mark Fulford and The Noteboard with Mark and Ralf Schemmann. He shares the responsibility with Cat for company strategy, new projects and creative development. He finds good people and asks them to do things. Simon tweets from
Cat Tobin
Cat is the Managing Director and co-owner of Pelgrane Press. As a full-time employee she oversees all aspects of book production and customer service, and as a company director and shareholder is jointly responsible for business strategy. She has been heavily involved in the roleplaying industry in Ireland and the UK since the late 1990s. She likes coffee, hates mornings and her favourite vegetable is the potato. Cat tweets from @CatTHM
Kenneth Hite
Kenneth Hite is a line developer and writer for Pelgrane Press, creator of Trail of Cthulhu, Night’s Black Agents and Ken Writes About Stuff. He claims to have bought the first copy of Call of Cthulhu sold in Oklahoma City, in August of 1981. Since then, he has moved to dread and night-haunted Chicago, written all or part of seventy or so roleplaying game books (including Nightmares of Mine, Dubious Shards, and Adventures Into Darkness), and acquired the requisite Lovecraftian cat. His “Tour de Lovecraft: The Settings” column appears in Weird Tales magazine; his Suppressed Transmission column explores the Higher Strangeness in Pyramid. He and Robin Laws are the cohosts of the award-winning podcast Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff. His wife Sheila knits.
Robin D Laws
Our foundational freelancer, and all round good egg. Robin D Laws wrote  The Dying Earth RPG and the GUMSHOE system, and the games The Esoterrorists, Mutant City Blues, Fear Itself, Ashen Stars and Hillfolk. He has also written for Steve Jackson Games, Atlas and other major publishers. You can read his blog here, noting the combination of self-deprecation and American pithiness found only in Canadians.
Gareth Ryder-Hanrahan
Gareth’s a full-time writer for Pelgrane. He’s also a veteran of the Irish convention circuit, and accidentally parleyed adventure writing for conventions into a career in game design. He’s contributed to more roleplaying books than he can easily recall, including Esoterrorists 2.0, The Zalazhniy Quartet, Dead Rock Seven and Eyes of the Stone Thief.
Wade Rockett
Wade is our Seattle-based community relations and marketing person—a role he attained by, in his words, “being one of the few PR people whom game designers know and can tolerate.” He’s also a game designer, writer, and editor whose credits include Temple of the Sun Cabal and the award-winning 13th Age Game Master’s Screen & Resource Book.
Will Jobst
Will is our publishing assistant, data-getter, and Johnny-on-the-spot. Based in Boston, Will can be found gleefully filling spreadsheets, making digital products accessible for millennials (technically Gen Z’s, he says), and anything Cat or Simon ask.
John Clayton
John (Detective) Clayton is the resident geek in the basement, taking care of all things webmasterly, administratorly and other such words that probably don’t exist ending in ‘ly’. From his basement located in the far, far north of the UK, he writes code. Maybe it keeps the world running, maybe not. Are you willing to take that risk? If you have a problem with your website and no-one else can help you, look for him. You can also read his ramblings at Files and Records. and follow him on Twitter (@dogbombs).
Our playtesters
These are the ones who make it through all the hurdles and provide us with a playtest report. Our games are substantially improved as a result of their input. Check See Page XX for opportunities!
Pelgranistas Emeritus
 
Sasha Bilton
Sash is the co-founder. Sasha is the company enthusiast and black labrador (not the depressed type).
Beth Lewis
Former full-timer and Pelgrane Emeritus, Beth has a background in academic publishing so, naturally, RPGs were the next logical career step. She has moved on to Titan Books, where she is carving out an empire, and she deigns to assist us on occasion. She plays a vicious drow in 13th Age called Eyes and a half’lin scoundrel, Cactus Kate.
Steve Dempsey
Notable Steve, Steve Dempsey is an ancient foundational relic of the company, freelancer and our number one Pelgrane GM.
Paula Dempsey
She came, she saw, she walked off with an ENnie. Occasional columnist with Page XX as Mystic Moo, she is the author of The Book of the Smoke.
Jérôme Huguenin
Jérôme Huguenin is an artist and layout designer. He created the look of Trail of Cthulhu, Mutant City Blues and the first editions of Fear Itself and The Esoterorrists, doing all the illustrations. He also provided artwork for this website. He has worked extensively in the French RPG industry and has worked on the French version of the Dying Earth RPG. More recently he has created interior and cover art for Trail of Cthulhu releases like Out of the Woods, Soldiers of Pen and Ink as well as the Cthulhu Confidential cover. See his portfolio and blog.
Graham Walmsley
Graham is the author of The Dying of St Margaret’s and The Watchers In The Sky, two bleak Purist Trail of Cthulhu scenarios, as well as Cthulhu Apocalypse. Aside from working for Pelgrane Press, he has published Play Unsafe, a guide to using storytelling and improvisation in games, Cthulhu Lite, and the murder mystery game A Taste For Murder.
The Dying Earth team
The Dying Earth is supported by the efforts of the excellent Jim Webster, editor of XPS and freelance writer and Ian Thomson, prolific one-man PDF factory. David Thomas wrote and edited much material and added much needed mockery of pretension.


Holy cow, there are men working for Pelgrane Press. The founder is a man, actually.

Also a man/cuckold with a hyphenated surname. Nice.

Even some big names in there.

Mind blown.

Quote from: Voros;969547The GOP opposes gay rights is an extraordinary claim? My Lord.

Headless claim that he has read a John Ringo book is also an extraordinary claim which lacks extraordinary proof.

If that is so easy to prove that the GOP hates gays, then please do so.

Quote from: Voros;969547And I guess they also need to be from sources beyond, I don't know, an actually respected news source since you dismissed every one that Nexus supplied earlier.

The sources that Nexus used were primarily opinion pieces that did not provide any objective reason why moving the trans bathroom issue from Federal to State governance was or is a catastrophe. Now if you can't provide proof that the GOP hates queers, just admit it. It is OK. A lot of people have bought into the goobledigook.

Quote from: Spinachcat;969549Depends on the state. Which kinda makes it like pre-1960s segregation. Which is bad.

Some states would be telling the trans community that they have less rights in their home state. AKA, "conform or move away"

Again, that's bad.

And I do understand the argument for State's Rights and the argument about safety.

Thank you for engaging with me on the subject. Voros seems to just want to run away from it ever since he brought it up.

Quote from: Spinachcat;969549However, I do NOT understand the Right's sudden potty fixation. Transvestites, transsexuals, transgenders have been pissing and shitting in public bathrooms OF THEIR CHOICE for a LONG time and it was never a thing on the news.

It smells of bullshit politics. Much like the Left demanding a female president. Somehow I missed the SJWs cheering on Carly Fiorina or Sarah Palin.

This is political. The Obama Administration shoved this down people's throat. In an effort to reduce the bloat in Federal Government, this implementation is being given back to states, freeing up Fed resources and reducing Fed government. Politics? Yes. Bullshit? I don't think so.
 

Quote from: Spinachcat;969549I imagine dudes dressed as chicks aren't going to feel welcome in the dude's potty.

Especially in high school.

From what I have read and heard, most of the complaints came from primary and middle schools. The source of which is the Obama Administrations criteria that a person decides what gender definition applies to them and can change in a moment.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;969556#Context is everything.

What's with all of the #?
Is is a Twitter thing?
What does it add to your post? It's distracting.

Quote from: Rincewind1;969543I'm sorry, but how does the Bolshevik revolution, considering the fall of USSR in 1989, is still relevant to modern politics? And could you elaborate more on this conspiracy - are suggesting that it exists to this day?

Because it is in their best interest to monopolize societies politics, cultural Marxism ideas and capitalism or the way a certain group of people view it, go hand in hand as the book describes in great detail. As a matter of fact they do that today with political correctness, the Marxist "weapon" against critical thinking. I believe that this sub forum that you write here owns its existence to that.

- deleted the last paragraph, it raise more questions than it answers.

Quote from: John Scott;969609Because it is in their best interest to monopolize societies politics, cultural Marxism ideas and capitalism or the way a certain group of people view it, go hand in hand as the book describes in great detail. As a matter of fact they do that today with political correctness, the Marxist "weapon" against critical thinking. I believe that this sub forum that you write here owns its existence to that.

- deleted the last paragraph, it raise more questions than it answers.

What would be that "certain group of people"? You look like a smart guy, who are they? Name some names or at least categories.

Quote from: Rincewind1;969611What would be that "certain group of people"? You look like a smart guy, who are they? Name some names or at least categories.

I am not, I just have a certain interest in history and a bad English vocabulary. You can check the names in the book mentioned, even better do some research and draw your conclusions by yourself.

Quote from: Voros;969548I've also worked around the world and studied at a university (ohh lala) and how you could claim to not know a single trans person speaks to what a sheltered life you've obviously led. Congrats you've travelled the world but might as well of stayed at home. No wonder you're an accountant.

I don't know any trans people (or anyone that identifies as such, maybe they are, maybe I don't care to ask).

I've lived in the SF Bay Area (not specifically in SF, but the outlying suburbs) my entire 45 years of life, save for two years spent in Twenty-Nine Palms.  I have a degree in Biology and I'm a licensed nurse.  I don't think my life is sheltered.  I've worked with and provided care to a large amount of diverse people.  Some have been gay, some bi-, but no trans that I am aware of.

But I generally don't ask because it makes no difference to me.

Quote from: 1989;969600Holy cow, there are men working for Pelgrane Press. The founder is a man, actually.

Also a man/cuckold with a hyphenated surname. Nice.

   You're not helping your cause by leaping to judgments like this. And Gareth Hanrahan is a pretty good designer; he did solid work on The Dracula Dossier and wrote the Vorlons and Shadows sourcebook for Babylon 5, which really gives a sense of mythic depth and scope to those entities.

    It bears remembering that one can appreciate game design without sharing the designer's opinions. The Pundit comes to mind, although I don't know his work. :) My go-to example is Jonathan Tweet; the man is a great designer, I can't argue with that, but he's also supporting causes that range from ones I disagree with to ones I consider actively evil, and has even interjected them into gaming in a couple of cases.

   And while the #Feminism anthology appears to have numerous games that fall into the same range as Tweet's opinions from my perspective, it appears that Pelgrane is simply doing reprinting and distribution of an existing product. It's arguably an indicator--they must see it as a worthwhile product or a niche that merits filling--but I'm not convinced it's at the point where "if you don't embrace this, we don't want you as a customer" yet. By contrast, I did get something of that vibe from Green Ronin's promotion of its Blue Rose 2E Kickstarter, although it's possible I'm being oversensitive.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;969633Gareth Hanrahan is a pretty good designer; he did solid work on The Dracula Dossier and wrote the Vorlons and Shadows sourcebook for Babylon 5, which really gives a sense of mythic depth and scope to those entities.

He is also responsible for Mongoose Traveller 1st Edition being as good as it was.

For what it's worth, my take on it is that Pelgrane has at least two different types of creators within it. On one hand, you have people like Tweet who wear their politics proudly and don't hesitate to loudly inject their beliefs into the stuff they produce. They'd fit right in at other publishers like Green Ronin or OPP. On the other hand, you have people like HHH (Heinsoo, Hanrahan, and Hite) who have diverse political beliefs but seem to focus entirely on putting out good games. They aren't worried about preaching to the masses.

Regardless, PP's stuff is great overall, though I mostly just buy their 13th Age books. I wanted to like their GUMSHOE stuff as some of the games sounded really intriguing, but I just didn't care too much for that system.

Lamentations of the Flame Princess supports the ACLU. Trump haters.

http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/

---

15.03.2017: ACLU Donation Drive Results + News
The ACLU fundraising drive ended up giving away 222 books for $15,661 in donations. Thank you everyone!
Two new shirts are on their way here from the printer in Germany, and they'll go up on the webstore when they arrive.
After almost three years of production (I got the first full version of the text in June 2014), Veins of the Earth is finally done and should be available in mid-April. We'll be doing previews on the LotFP G+ and Facebook during the time in between. Veins is a project by Patrick Stuart and Scrap Princess (Deep Carbon Observatory and Fire on the Velvet Horizon), and Jez Gordon just finished the layout. 368 page hardcover, full color. Looks like it'll be 55€ before tax and shipping. The book will be physically about twice as thick as Red & Pleasant Land, and I expect the book is going to weigh 1000-1100 grams, which would make Economy shipping costs somewhere around 20€.
This is LotFP's biggest production to date, and just might be the best "underdark" gaming supplement this hobby has ever produced. If you doubt that bit of hype, well, we'll see. We'll see. I like our chances.
This might be a good time to remind everyone that if your order through the webstore weighs at least 2100 grams, I subsidize half the shipping cost, savings included in the listed shipping price once you pass that threshold. Might be something to consider when ordering such a large book.
29.01.2017: Donate, Get a Book
LotFP is offering a free book to anyone who donates US$50 or more to the ACLU.
https://www.aclu.org/

Gygax hired Jean Wells because he thought TSR was too much of a boy's club. So you can add D&D to your ban list as well.

Greg Costikyan's Paranoia is a lefty nightmare parody of anti-Communist totalitarianism so add that to your list.

By the time 1989 is done the only game he'll be able to play will be MYFAROG.

Quote from: Ulairi;969588Again, the probability changes as someone moves into the arts. I don't know what your beef is with people not personally knowing a population that is essentially a rounding error when it comes to demographics.

I don't have a beef with you not knowing someone but pretending that a trans person is some statistical unicorn is absurd. You're implication that having queer friends is 'virtue signalling' continues to show who is the 'mental midget.' Your claim is particularly odd on an RPG board as others here have stated the RPG community has  more than its fair share of trans players and designers, for rather obvious reasons.

Your silly number crunching continues to speak to your amusingly constricted emotional and life experience. Are you sure you're not somewhere on the asperger's spectrum? The embarrasingly OT mention of your Masters degree (whippydoo) seems to suggest a serious lack of social skills.

Claiming to have read a book is not an extrondanry claim.  It does not require extrondanry proof.  

Claiming that the GOP is anti gay, is a resonable claim but one a reasonable person could disagree with.  Then there could be a discussion.  However your MO is to prevent discussion.  Brings very little to the discussion, instead mostly setting bars to jump over and generally denying others the right to speak.

Quote from: Headless;969701Claiming to have read a book is not an extrondanry claim.  It does not require extrondanry proof.  

Yeah, yeah. You still have not even demonstrated a cursory knowledge of John Ringo's The Last Centurion, so go fuck yourself and your misinformation campaign.

Quote from: Headless;969701Claiming that the GOP is anti gay, is a resonable claim but one a reasonable person could disagree with.  Then there could be a discussion.  However your MO is to prevent discussion.  Brings very little to the discussion, instead mostly setting bars to jump over and generally denying others the right to speak.

I'm asking for some proof that the GOP hates gays and so far, in spite of more than ample opportunity to provide some, no proof of this claim has yet been brought forth by either you or by Voros. So you two have obviously bought into the propaganda that the GOP is anti-GBLT and are repeating the talking points as much as possible with the idea that if you say a lie often enough then it becomes truth. So either shit or get off the pot. Where is the proof of your claim?

All you guys are doing is embarrassing yourselves here.

Did you lose your hands in an accident recently and haven't got the voice activated software that would allow you to Google this yourself? You're supremely disengenous.

Log-Cabin Republicans call the 2016 GOP platform “the most anti-LGBT Platform in the Party’s 162-year history.” (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/republicans-lgbt-peter-thiel)

Check out the views of those who wrote the platform, like:
the disgraced pseduo-historian Barton who says we can't cure AIDS cause God wants to punish homosexuals, (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/barton-suggests-we-cant-cure-aids-because-it-is-punishment-for-sin/)

Mary Frances Forrester who believes the gays have a secret agenda to take over America and that civilizations that accept gays don't last past one generation. (http://christianactionleague.org/news/responding-to-criticisms-of-mary-francis-forrester’s-op-ed/)

Cynthia Dunbar, not only a Creationist fanatic but also said the gay agenda was “done in pre-Holocaust Germany, as far as propaganda and presentation and swaying the whole mindset of a nation.” (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/barber-the-boy-scouts-have-committed-gay-activist-suicide/)

Hardy Billington took out an ad in the paper to tell everyone "homosexuality is killing people two to three times the rate of smoking." (https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2012/05/14/homosexuality-is-killing-people-2-to-3-times-the-rate-of-smoking-says-missouri-republican)

These are not fringe figures they are selected to write the GOPs platform.

Now pls proceed to attack the sources, dismiss the statement from CONSERVATIVE homosexuals and more.

Meanwhile, news at 11: the KKK hates Jews and blacks. Black people mistrust the police...and more!!

Quote from: jeff37923;969707Yeah, yeah. You still have not even demonstrated a cursory knowledge of John Ringo's The Last Centurion, so go fuck yourself and your misinformation campaign.



I'm asking for some proof that the GOP hates gays and so far, in spite of more than ample opportunity to provide some, no proof of this claim has yet been brought forth by either you or by Voros. So you two have obviously bought into the propaganda that the GOP is anti-GBLT and are repeating the talking points as much as possible with the idea that if you say a lie often enough then it becomes truth. So either shit or get off the pot. Where is the proof of your claim?

All you guys are doing is embarrassing yourselves here.

I have demonstrated cursory knoledge of several of his books.  In fact "Warboos Squee" (I think) had to go look up my claim in an attempt to disprove me.  He found I cited to wrong book, #2 insyead of #1 of the serries.  

All of that aside I have demonstrated more knoledge of any of his books then you have.  What is it you like about 'the Last Centurian'?  Why did you pick that book to change my opinion on Ringo?  How do you feel about his climate change denial?  

As for providing proof, we've tried, you don't listen.  Its getting tedious.

Quote from: Voros;969721Did you lose your hands in an accident recently and haven't got the voice activated software that would allow you to Google this yourself? You're supremely disengenous.

You make your claim and then you must provide your proof.

Quote from: Voros;969721Log-Cabin Republicans call the 2016 GOP platform “the most anti-LGBT Platform in the Party’s 162-year history.” (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/republicans-lgbt-peter-thiel)

“Opposition to marriage equality, nonsense about bathrooms, an endorsement of the debunked psychological practice of ‘pray the gay away’—it’s all in there,” Gregory T. Angelo, the Log Cabin Republican’s president, said in a press release. “This isn’t my G.O.P., and I know it’s not yours either. Heck, it’s not even Donald Trump’s!”

- Vanity Fair article

And that is the key. Donald Trump is now President and there is no opposition to marriage equality or endorsement of "pray the gay away" from this Administration. You believe that states taking over the implementation of bathroom legislature for trans is the end of the world, you may of course live in fearful rage over this.

I do not see evidence that the GOP hates GBLT. The article reads like the imaginary GOP of your fears is being swept away as Trump and the new order and they do not know how to respond to the loss of their power.

Mike Pence has been a GBLT boogieman for a while now, just ask GenCon. While you are at it, really read what the legislature said.

Rachel Hoff's interview was disheartening, but it was hard to get through the needless editorializing by the Vanity Fair writer to get the reality of what is a second hand report from Time magazine.

Quote from: Voros;969721Check out the views of those who wrote the platform, like:

I call bullshit. Why? Because none of the sources you site sound like the Log Cabin Republicans (http://www.logcabin.org/about-us/)

Quote from: Log Cabin Republicans WebsiteLog Cabin Republicans is the nation’s original and largest organization representing gay conservatives and allies who support fairness, freedom, and equality for all Americans.

But lets see what you dredged up....

Quote from: Voros;969721the disgraced pseduo-historian Barton who says we can't cure AIDS cause God wants to punish homosexuals, (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/barton-suggests-we-cant-cure-aids-because-it-is-punishment-for-sin/)

Right Wing Watch? You can't be serious, and it is from 2012.

Quote from: Voros;969721Mary Frances Forrester who believes the gays have a secret agenda to take over America and that civilizations that accept gays don't last past one generation. (http://christianactionleague.org/news/responding-to-criticisms-of-mary-francis-forrester’s-op-ed/)

The Christian Action League does not have any sway in the GOP.

Quote from: Voros;969721Cynthia Dunbar, not only a Creationist fanatic but also said the gay agenda was “done in pre-Holocaust Germany, as far as propaganda and presentation and swaying the whole mindset of a nation.” (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/barber-the-boy-scouts-have-committed-gay-activist-suicide/)

Right Wing Watch again? Plus siting the ravings of a Creationist to support your position is a sign of desperation, and also from 2013.

Quote from: Voros;969721Hardy Billington took out an ad in the paper to tell everyone "homosexuality is killing people two to three times the rate of smoking." (https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2012/05/14/homosexuality-is-killing-people-2-to-3-times-the-rate-of-smoking-says-missouri-republican)

OK, this is from 2012 and was the paid ravings of a politician, admittedly Republican, who came in last in his failed election. Not a lot of influence on the GOP.

Quote from: Voros;969721These are not fringe figures they are selected to write the GOPs platform.

And where are they now?

EDIT: And honestly, tell me what platforms they wrote for the GOP. None of these people are movers and shakers in the GOP. They are all small fry who have lost elections and aren't around anymore.

Quote from: Voros;969721Now pls proceed to attack the sources, dismiss the statement from CONSERVATIVE homosexuals and more.

Done and done.

You need to try harder, a lot harder.

Quote from: Headless;969735I have demonstrated cursory knoledge of several of his books.  In fact "Warboos Squee" (I think) had to go look up my claim in an attempt to disprove me.  He found I cited to wrong book, #2 insyead of #1 of the serries.  

All of that aside I have demonstrated more knoledge of any of his books then you have.  What is it you like about 'the Last Centurian'?  Why did you pick that book to change my opinion on Ringo?  How do you feel about his climate change denial?  

As for providing proof, we've tried, you don't listen.  Its getting tedious.

Yeah kid, whatever.

Quote from: Voros;969692Greg Costikyan's Paranoia is a lefty nightmare parody of anti-Communist totalitarianism so add that to your list.

WEG also put out "The Price of Freedom", which caused much frothing here from proto-SJWs back in the '80s, so I'd think they would get a pass. GDW's Twilight: 2000 was hated even more though, both seen as anti-Communist or even pro-WW3.

Quote from: jeff37923;969747.. Not a lot of influence on the GOP.

And where are they now?

EDIT: And honestly, tell me what platforms they wrote for the GOP. None of these people are movers and shakers in the GOP. They are all small fry who have lost elections and aren't around anymore.

Okay, so I didn't realize you were politically illiterate, possibily functionally illiterate?

Apparently you don't know what a party platform is, who writes it and the purpose of it.

How bizarre, it's like talking to a child. As you never seem to actually read anything linked I'm starting to suspect you really are functionally illiterate.

I've volunteered to teach adults who can't read in the past jeff feel free to reach out via PM and I'll give you some contact info for people who can help. God Bless.

Quote from: S'mon;969765WEG also put out "The Price of Freedom", which caused much frothing here from proto-SJWs back in the '80s, so I'd think they would get a pass. GDW's Twilight: 2000 was hated even more though, both seen as anti-Communist or even pro-WW3.

Price of Freedom was firmly tongue in cheek. It mocked the righteous fears of God-fearing Americans about a land war with the USSR. Onto the list it goes!

Quote from: Voros;969792Price of Freedom was firmly tongue in cheek. It mocked the righteous fears of God-fearing Americans about a land war with the USSR. Onto the list it goes!

You are very strange.

Quote from: Voros;969792Price of Freedom was firmly tongue in cheek. It mocked the righteous fears of God-fearing Americans about a land war with the USSR. Onto the list it goes!

It's Verhoeven's Starship Troopers all over again.

Quote from: Voros;969694I don't have a beef with you not knowing someone but pretending that a trans person is some statistical unicorn is absurd. You're implication that having queer friends is 'virtue signalling' continues to show who is the 'mental midget.' Your claim is particularly odd on an RPG board as others here have stated the RPG community has  more than its fair share of trans players and designers, for rather obvious reasons.

Your silly number crunching continues to speak to your amusingly constricted emotional and life experience. Are you sure you're not somewhere on the asperger's spectrum? The embarrasingly OT mention of your Masters degree (whippydoo) seems to suggest a serious lack of social skills.

Can you try not to move the goal posts? Now you're changing it to have "queer friends" when the original discussion was based on the probability of having a personal relationship with a transsexual person. I didn't make any implication that having queer friends was virtue signaling. Having queer friends just means you have queer friends. Just like having any other type of friend means you just have that type of friend. The reason I brought up my University background is that you stated that if I lived in a major city and went to University, then I would likely have a personal relationship, so I was countering your point.

The RPG community has more than its fair share of trans players and designers? What does that mean? .06% of the RPG population would be double the general population rate of transsexuals. It's still less than 1% of the entire RPG community. Is it 3x? You tell me what "more than its fair share" means.

I'm not pretending that trans people are some sort of statistical unicorn. I'm just saying the likelihood of knowing a trans person is not likely based on the extremely small population. I don't know why you're getting all bent out of shape when the probability of having a personal relationship with a transsexual person is not likely for the average person. So when you ask somebody to go "ask a trans person" the average person, including posters on this forum, do not have that luxury.

Quote from: Voros;969791Okay, so I didn't realize you were politically illiterate, possibily functionally illiterate?

Apparently you don't know what a party platform is, who writes it and the purpose of it.

How bizarre, it's like talking to a child. As you never seem to actually read anything linked I'm starting to suspect you really are functionally illiterate.

I've volunteered to teach adults who can't read in the past jeff feel free to reach out via PM and I'll give you some contact info for people who can help. God Bless.

You cannot provide proof that the GOP hates GBLT and so you lash out in anger. That's cool. You've just acknowledged that you have no proof to support the propaganda that the GOP hates GBLTs.

Quote from: Rincewind1;969832It's Verhoeven's Starship Troopers all over again.

Except that Price of Freedom came out 11 years before that abortion of a movie which has little to do with Heinlein's book.

But you would have to leave the coffeeshop to know that.

Quote from: Rincewind1;969832It's Verhoeven's Starship Troopers all over again.

There's a co ed shower scene in Price of Freedom?

Quote from: jeff37923;969851Except that Price of Freedom came out 11 years before that abortion of a movie which has little to do with Heinlein's book.

But you would have to leave the coffeeshop to know that.

I was more referring to people not getting the joke - QED, one would say.

Quote from: jeff37923;969851Except that Price of Freedom came out 11 years before that abortion of a movie which has little to do with Heinlein's book.

But you would have to leave the coffeeshop to know that.

The movie was great in my opinion. It was definitely different than the book, and pretty much had the opposite message from it, but did a good job with the message it was sending. And it was just a good watch. I think the book is also a classic though. And even though I don't agree with the message, I think it does make a challenging argument for its position and presents it in a spectacular way. With science fiction, being able to stomach messages you disagree with kind of goes with the territory. Lately it feels like science fiction fans on both sides are cloistering themselves away from writers who they don't entirely align with. Not saying you are doing that (you might just dislike the movie because you didn't find it entertaining). But I see so much of this on my social media feed.

I think the "A Note to Liberal Readers" section in The Price of Freedom makes it clear where they're coming from, basically the same place as Red Dawn. It may not be 100% po-faced but it's no parody, either.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;969857The movie was great in my opinion. It was definitely different than the book, and pretty much had the opposite message from it, but did a good job with the message it was sending. And it was just a good watch.

I mostly agree with that. The ant-like tactics of the human Troopers were maybe a bit much - complete lack of artillery, no NBC suits vs their own nukes, et al made it a bit too heavy-handed. But the message parodying American militarism worked pretty well, and became a lot more relevant after the bad reaction to 9/11.

A real, non-parodic Starship Troopers film would be good, though.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;969857The movie was great in my opinion. It was definitely different than the book, and pretty much had the opposite message from it, but did a good job with the message it was sending. And it was just a good watch. I think the book is also a classic though. And even though I don't agree with the message, I think it does make a challenging argument for its position and presents it in a spectacular way. With science fiction, being able to stomach messages you disagree with kind of goes with the territory. Lately it feels like science fiction fans on both sides are cloistering themselves away from writers who they don't entirely align with. Not saying you are doing that (you might just dislike the movie because you didn't find it entertaining). But I see so much of this on my social media feed.

So what was the message that you think that Starship Troopers the movie was saying?

Quote from: jeff37923;969871So what was the message that you think that Starship Troopers the movie was saying?

I think it was pretty much what S'mon said, a parody of American Militarism, and of fascism and propaganda in general. There is certainly room for debate though because I get the impression that the screen writer and director were not on the same page (at least based on the old director commentary on the DVD). It is a lot like Robocop IMO. I am not saying I agree with the entire message of the movie. But I found it entertaining, witty and I think it made its point well.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;969875I think it was pretty much what S'mon said, a parody of American Militarism, and of fascism and propaganda in general. There is certainly room for debate though because I get the impression that the screen writer and director were not on the same page (at least based on the old director commentary on the DVD). It is a lot like Robocop IMO. I am not saying I agree with the entire message of the movie. But I found it entertaining, witty and I think it made its point well.

I grok where you are coming from, but parody should be funny. Funny parodies of American Militarism are Stripes and 1941 and The Mouse That Roared. Even serious criticisms of American Militarism have been better done with Platoon and in anime Gundam 0080. Verhoeven is just too clumsy of a filmmaker to do purposeful comedic parody (accidental on the other hand he ain't bad - like Gestapo Dougie in his Starship Troopers).

Quote from: jeff37923;969882I grok where you are coming from, but parody should be funny. Funny parodies of American Militarism are Stripes and 1941 and The Mouse That Roared. Even serious criticisms of American Militarism have been better done with Platoon and in anime Gundam 0080. Verhoeven is just too clumsy of a filmmaker to do purposeful comedic parody (accidental on the other hand he ain't bad - like Gestapo Dougie in his Starship Troopers).

Well, Verhoeven isn't subtle, but that is a stylistic decision. I think for his over-the-top, bringing things to the point of absurdity approach, it was funny and worked. But different strokes.

Quote from: David Johansen;969518That's one of my justifications for preferring the KJV.  Most of the political issues it supports are long dead.  That and the language is beautiful and poetic.  But no, it's not a perfect translation by any stretch of the imagination.

The Bible is only perfect in two languages: Hebrew (OT), and in the original KJV English.

Not sure if joking...

I'm not convinced that it's perfect in Hebrew.  Old, old, stories, copied and re-copied, told and re-told.  But the language is beautiful and King James is long dead.

Quote from: jeff37923;969747You make your claim and then you must provide your proof.

"Opposition to marriage equality, nonsense about bathrooms, an endorsement of the debunked psychological practice of 'pray the gay away'—it's all in there," Gregory T. Angelo, the Log Cabin Republican's president, said in a press release. "This isn't my G.O.P., and I know it's not yours either. Heck, it's not even Donald Trump's!"

- Vanity Fair article

And that is the key. Donald Trump is now President and there is no opposition to marriage equality or endorsement of "pray the gay away" from this Administration. You believe that states taking over the implementation of bathroom legislature for trans is the end of the world, you may of course live in fearful rage over this.

I do not see evidence that the GOP hates GBLT. The article reads like the imaginary GOP of your fears is being swept away as Trump and the new order and they do not know how to respond to the loss of their power.

Precisely.

Donald Trump is the Pro-LGBT 1st Term President in the history of government, from either party. He is the first to have been fully supportive of LGBT equality and rights before winning election (Obama, for example, was still campaigning as being anti-marriage-equality in 2008).  He was the first GOP presidential candidate to speak about the protection of LGBT people at his acceptance speech at the GOP Convention (and received a rousing round of applause).  Note, this was at the same convention where the 'platform' was drafted, by a group of utterly marginal theocons that everyone knew were going to be totally ignored by Trump anyways.

He was the first GOP presidential candidate to be photographed holding up the gay pride flag.

I get that it drives the left nuts, but this current administration in this current year is the most pro-LGBT in all of presidential history.

Quote from: David Johansen;969893Not sure if joking...

I'm not convinced that it's perfect in Hebrew.

It's as perfect as it can possibly be outside of the original English.

Copy pasted from face book.

- Authored constitutional amendment to "protect marriage". (May 2008)
- Voted NO on reauthorizing the Violence Against Women Act. (Feb 2013)
- Vote to amend Constitution to define traditional marriage. (Jun 2008)
- voted to protect anti-same-sex marriage opinions as free speech. (Sep 2013)
- Voted to make state definition of marriage supersedes federal gay marriage. (Feb 2014)

-Senator Scalise.
------------------'-'

That looks to me like evidence the GOP has a long history of being against gay rights.  


Trump might not be anti-gay, but that doesn't prove anything becuase he's a Democrat that ran on a GOP ticket cause they are dumber.    Damn turns out he didn't actually say that.  The more you know.   It still stands tgat he is only tollerated by the GOP because he is president.  His views don't represent their views.  His views are what ever make him feels important and keep him in the spot light.

Parties get subverted and radically redefined quite frequently.
The GOP, for example, began as a party of cleaning up corruption and abolition of slavery, then became a party notorious for its corruption, then got cleaned up again and became the progressive party (versus the Democrats, who were full of southern racists and christian evangelicals and isolationists), then it got hijacked again and became a party of big business, then it got entryism by the religious right (switching from their traditional location in the Democratic party), then a top-down coup by the neocons, an entryist attempt by the libertarians, and now the Trump movement.

Power Blocs in the GOP rise and fall. There are still Neocons and Theocons alike in the GOP but they're a spent force. The GWB years were disastrous for them, but it took two more elections to fully confirm that.  Trump came along at just the right moment to succeed. And he'll end up changing the face of the party; one of the ways that he'll change the party is that he has de-facto killed any anti-LGBT movement in the GOP. They're done (and note, they would have been done even without Trump, because no one except the aging top half of the theocon rump still wanted the party to have those views; but with Trump it just happened much faster).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;969857Lately it feels like science fiction fans on both sides are cloistering themselves away from writers who they don't entirely align with.

We're an over informed culture with multiple options regarding -everything-.  There are literally over half a dozen different tv shows about zombies right now for instance.  Heck, you even have multiple shows dealing with theological fantasy on TV at the moment (e.g. Preacher, American Gods, Lucifer, arguably Supernatural).  With that many options, people can afford the luxury of being picky about what they consume.  

And they'll be less for only consuming things that reinforce their socio-political world view, no argument here, but you've only got so much time to spend and you gotta' chose something somehow.

Quote from: RPGPundit;969894(Obama, for example, was still campaigning as being anti-marriage-equality in 2008).

It should also be noted that Obama only stood for marriage equality after initial poll results showed that he was lagging behind Republicans in popularity.

Quote from: Headless;969908Copy pasted from face book.

Questionable without a link to follow back to the Facebook site. How do we know this is not you just spreading more fear, uncertainty, and doubt?

Quote from: jeff37923;969882erhoeven is just too clumsy of a filmmaker to do purposeful comedic parody (accidental on the other hand he ain't bad - like Gestapo Dougie in his Starship Troopers).

Uh, that was deliberate.

The metal probe into the vagina-like orifice of the captured brain-bug was deliberate, too.

Quote from: S'mon;969959Uh, that was deliberate.

The metal probe into the vagina-like orifice of the captured brain-bug was deliberate, too.

Seriously? OK, he's worse than I thought.

Quote from: jeff37923;969961Seriously? OK, he's worse than I thought.

The whole point of the Verhoeven movie was that American Miltarism = Fascism. Basically the typical view of a lefty Dutchman growing up in the Cold War, with five hundred thousand Americans ready to die in a nuclear ground war at the Fulda Gap & on the North German Plain so that he could keep smoking his weed in Amsterdam.

Since in my view something actually did go wrong with the US after the shock of the 9/11 atrocity, the movie is weirdly prescient of 21st century Neocon-Neolib militarism and actually less reprehensible now than when it was made. YMMV (and almost certainly does) :)

In my experience, most people upset by homosexual PDAs are deeply worried that they'll like it and think that by avoiding seeing it, they can avoid facing their own desires of which they feel ashamed. Seeing others freely doing what they secretly wish makes them emotionally confused and angry. Just as the politicians and clergymen who rant the most about the evils of homosexuality are the ones who end up getting caught soliciting sex with men in the boys' room.

Quote from: jeff37923;969950It should also be noted that Obama only stood for marriage equality after initial poll results showed that he was lagging behind Republicans in popularity.

Wait, a politician who is a hypocrite basing his "deeply held beliefs" on poll results? Can we stop the presses and interrupt broadcasts for this newsflash? :D

Quote from: S'mon;969765WEG also put out "The Price of Freedom", which caused much frothing here from proto-SJWs back in the '80s, so I'd think they would get a pass. GDW's Twilight: 2000 was hated even more though, both seen as anti-Communist or even pro-WW3.

I have The Price of Freedom on my shelf. Have only played it once or twice as no one was that interested in the setting, but it's pretty funny in a very dry way. Every now and then I look for the modules.  I have Twilight 2000 as well. Good game (1st edition, anyway), but again not many people seem interested in the setting.

Quote from: jeff37923;969951Questionable without a link to follow back to the Facebook site. How do we know this is not you just spreading more fear, uncertainty, and doubt?

Its a voting record.  

With dates.  You asked for proof the GOP is anti gay.  I provided a voting record of one of the elected members of the the Republican party.  

Remember I'm not the one who argues in bad faith, obstructs or obficates, you are.  

But that does answer my question.  A voting record is not sufficient evidence to even start a discussion.  I'm all for context, if you have something to add to show that the voting record isn' the whole story please share it.

But you don't.

Quote from: Headless;969998Its a voting record.  

With dates.  You asked for proof the GOP is anti gay.  I provided a voting record of one of the elected members of the the Republican party.  

And I'm asking for a credible source, which you don't seem to want to supply.

Quote from: Headless;969998Remember I'm not the one who argues in bad faith, obstructs or obficates, you are.

No, you are just the one that lies about books he has read and refuses to provide credible sources for your claims.

Quote from: Headless;969998But that does answer my question.  A voting record is not sufficient evidence to even start a discussion.  I'm all for context, if you have something to add to show that the voting record isn' the whole story please share it.

But you don't.

I don't because I have no fucking clue where you pulled those questionable "voting records" from. You have not provided a source. It looks like you have just pulled some stuff that sounds good to you right out of your ass.

If you had a credible source for those "voting records" then I might give you the benefit of the doubt, because a voting record is valid if it is real and can be verified.

Now shoo, kid.

Quote from: Dumarest;969983In my experience, most people upset by homosexual PDAs are deeply worried that they'll like it and think that by avoiding seeing it, they can avoid facing their own desires of which they feel ashamed. Seeing others freely doing what they secretly wish makes them emotionally confused and angry. Just as the politicians and clergymen who rant the most about the evils of homosexuality are the ones who end up getting caught soliciting sex with men in the boys' room.

In my experience, it's just a revolting abomination of nature.

Quote from: S'mon;969869I think the "A Note to Liberal Readers" section in The Price of Freedom makes it clear where they're coming from, basically the same place as Red Dawn. It may not be 100% po-faced but it's no parody, either.

Nothing like Red Dawn. That film takes itself way too seriously, that's what makes the film such a bore after its dynamite opening. The only real humour is inadvertent: I remember the 'Wolverine!' scene evoking laughs when I saw it in a theatre.

Your reading of 'A Note to Liberal Readers' is tone deaf if you think it suggests it's not a parody. The sense of irony is strong throughout. Milius' Red Dawn wouldn't know irony if it stuck a grenade down its pants. And I say that as a huge admirer of his film The Big Wednesday.

Okay, we know that some of you are going to be uncomfortable with the premise
of THE PRICE OF FREEDOM. We didn't do the game to offend your sensibilities; we did it to give you an enjoyable roleplaying experience. And we see no reason why you shouldn't enjoy the game without compromising your political beliefs, whatever they may be. Here's why: You, personally, don't have to believe the average Soviet soldier is a bloodthirsty killer, or that the Soviet Union could occupy the United States in the next five years. (We don't, either;)

THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is a fantasy roleplaying game in the true sense of the word; its fantasy is the right-Wing nightmare that America is delivered into the hands of her enemies. You don't have to approve of secret agents blowing up everybody they take a
dislike to to enjoy a James Bond film ...Think of the game as The lord of the Rings meets William F. Buckley: the Evil Empire of the East . . . uh, that is, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ... masses its troops to assault the last remaining Citadel of the Sons of the Morning . . oops, the last bastion of liberty in an unfree world: Only you stand between the forces of darkness and world dominion; you, the valiant freedom fighter, must strike a blow for liberty. The question isn't whether or not such a terrible thing could happen, but whether or not you could enjoy pretending it has.

Roleplaying works best when everybody involved suspends disbelief and lives the
fantasy. The world of THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is remarkably easy to enter: You play yourself or someone you could reasonably expect to meet on the street.
No problem imagining yourself in either of those roles.
The setting is modern-day America. Again, no imagination problem.

You defend your home, your family and your friends from real enemies. You and
yours are not being threatened by aliens from Proxima Centauri, or some other
hypothetical creation from the pages of fiction, but by the armed forces and secret
police of America's sworn rival. They'll kick your dog, they'll reduce Baskin-Robbins'
31 flavors to 3, they'll cancel Moonlighting . . . and then they'll take away your basic human rights. But only if you let them.

That's saying it flippantly, but forget the politics: THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is a dramatic game. Villains are destroying you. They're taking your house, your car,
your VCR; they're threatening your family; they're teaching lies to your children.
The situation is so intolerable that the only possible response is rage.

We could have done it with a right-wing coup in Washington or mind-devouring
alien spore pods but a Soviet takeover is far more powerful precisely because the
Soviets have been our antagonists for so long.

Rage is important; the fun part of the game is its release. You can see yourself
grabbing a deer rifle and heading for the hills. You can see yourself as a bloodthirsty
Rambo, charging through all adversity, crying, "Do svidanya, tovarisch;' as you machinegun down rank upon rank of the godless Communists who wish to destroy
the American way.

That catharsis is fun. Let's face it, we'd all like to blow things up. We'd all like to
crush our enemies. Fortunately, society forbids us to act on those impulses. THE
PRICE OF FREEDOM releases those emotions. And as a result, it can be a gas.

Blow it up! Blow it up real good!
Eat hot death, Commie dog!
That's the ticket!

Quote from: 1989;970005In my experience, it's just a revolting abomination of nature.

But BDSM isn't? Please enlighten us professor.

Quote from: Headless;969735I have demonstrated cursory knoledge of several of his books.  In fact "Warboos Squee" (I think) had to go look up my claim in an attempt to disprove me.  He found I cited to wrong book, #2 insyead of #1 of the serries.  

All of that aside I have demonstrated more knoledge of any of his books then you have.  What is it you like about 'the Last Centurian'?  Why did you pick that book to change my opinion on Ringo?  How do you feel about his climate change denial?  

As for providing proof, we've tried, you don't listen.  Its getting tedious.

Well, let's be fair. You got more than that wrong, but I need to track down the other book to get full points on you.

Quote from: 1989;970005In my experience, it's just a revolting abomination of nature.

In your experience? Ah now I understand...

Quote from: jeff37923;969607This is political. The Obama Administration shoved this down people's throat. In an effort to reduce the bloat in Federal Government, this implementation is being given back to states, freeing up Fed resources and reducing Fed government. Politics? Yes. Bullshit? I don't think so.

We need to reduce federal bloat. There's no question.

I am not an Obama fan, but I don't see his other options. The federal discrimination laws are going to support the transgenders, especially those with a valid medical diagnosis.

Any states who craft a trans policy that's not in line with federal discrimination laws is going to asking for a lawsuit.

The reason I smell bullshit politics is because trannys have been peeing and pooping for decades and nobody cared where until now.

Quote from: jeff37923;969607From what I have read and heard, most of the complaints came from primary and middle schools. The source of which is the Obama Administrations criteria that a person decides what gender definition applies to them and can change in a moment.

Do you have a link to that criteria? I had not heard that.

Trannys in school is a concern because of PE changing / showering. I have no idea how we simultaneously support the trannys right to be free of discrimination with other parents' concerns for their kids safety and well being. Just telling 99.97% of the population to suck it up and accommodate the .03% isn't a real plan and its a bad precedent.

Quote from: 1989;969671Lamentations of the Flame Princess supports the ACLU. Trump haters.

The ACLU has an amazing history of supporting free speech.

Google up ACLU and Skokie.

Quote from: Ulairi;969834So when you ask somebody to go "ask a trans person" the average person, including posters on this forum, do not have that luxury.

And it would be as meaningless as "go ask an Italian" or "go ask a woman" because people aren't mouthpieces for their entire identity group.

Except me. I speak for all gamers.

Quote from: S'mon;969870A real, non-parodic Starship Troopers film would be good, though.

I love the Verhoven flick, but I would love a version true to the book.

Quote from: jeff37923;969871So what was the message that you think that Starship Troopers the movie was saying?

1) Doogie Hauser can kick ass.

2) Bugs are scary fuckers in close combat.

Quote from: HorusArisen;970044In your experience? Ah now I understand...

Now, now, no need for mockery, everyone had that time when they were 16 and experimenting.

Quote from: Voros;970024Nothing like Red Dawn. That film takes itself way too seriously, that's what makes the film such a bore after its dynamite opening. The only real humour is inadvertent: I remember the 'Wolverine!' scene evoking laughs when I saw it in a theatre.

Your reading of 'A Note to Liberal Readers' is tone deaf if you think it suggests it's not a parody. The sense of irony is strong throughout. Milius' Red Dawn wouldn't know irony if it stuck a grenade down its pants. And I say that as a huge admirer of his film The Big Wednesday.

Okay, we know that some of you are going to be uncomfortable with the premise
of THE PRICE OF FREEDOM. We didn't do the game to offend your sensibilities; we did it to give you an enjoyable roleplaying experience. And we see no reason why you shouldn't enjoy the game without compromising your political beliefs, whatever they may be. Here's why: You, personally, don't have to believe the average Soviet soldier is a bloodthirsty killer, or that the Soviet Union could occupy the United States in the next five years. (We don't, either;)

THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is a fantasy roleplaying game in the true sense of the word; its fantasy is the right-Wing nightmare that America is delivered into the hands of her enemies. You don't have to approve of secret agents blowing up everybody they take a
dislike to to enjoy a James Bond film ...Think of the game as The lord of the Rings meets William F. Buckley: the Evil Empire of the East . . . uh, that is, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ... masses its troops to assault the last remaining Citadel of the Sons of the Morning . . oops, the last bastion of liberty in an unfree world: Only you stand between the forces of darkness and world dominion; you, the valiant freedom fighter, must strike a blow for liberty. The question isn't whether or not such a terrible thing could happen, but whether or not you could enjoy pretending it has.

Roleplaying works best when everybody involved suspends disbelief and lives the
fantasy. The world of THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is remarkably easy to enter: You play yourself or someone you could reasonably expect to meet on the street.
No problem imagining yourself in either of those roles.
The setting is modern-day America. Again, no imagination problem.

You defend your home, your family and your friends from real enemies. You and
yours are not being threatened by aliens from Proxima Centauri, or some other
hypothetical creation from the pages of fiction, but by the armed forces and secret
police of America's sworn rival. They'll kick your dog, they'll reduce Baskin-Robbins'
31 flavors to 3, they'll cancel Moonlighting . . . and then they'll take away your basic human rights. But only if you let them.

That's saying it flippantly, but forget the politics: THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is a dramatic game. Villains are destroying you. They're taking your house, your car,
your VCR; they're threatening your family; they're teaching lies to your children.
The situation is so intolerable that the only possible response is rage.

We could have done it with a right-wing coup in Washington or mind-devouring
alien spore pods but a Soviet takeover is far more powerful precisely because the
Soviets have been our antagonists for so long.

Rage is important; the fun part of the game is its release. You can see yourself
grabbing a deer rifle and heading for the hills. You can see yourself as a bloodthirsty
Rambo, charging through all adversity, crying, "Do svidanya, tovarisch;' as you machinegun down rank upon rank of the godless Communists who wish to destroy
the American way.

That catharsis is fun. Let's face it, we'd all like to blow things up. We'd all like to
crush our enemies. Fortunately, society forbids us to act on those impulses. THE
PRICE OF FREEDOM releases those emotions. And as a result, it can be a gas.

Blow it up! Blow it up real good!
Eat hot death, Commie dog!
That's the ticket!

Wow, they could've just pretty much slapped "This game is satire" on the cover, if that's the introduction.

Quote from: Rincewind1;970052Wow, they could've just pretty much slapped "This game is satire" on the cover, if that's the introduction.

They pretty much did. Dig the cover.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1078[/ATTACH]

I mean this is from the guy who designed Toon and Paranoia.I think Costikyan's mistake was assuming gamers were adult enough to get it.

Look at this hippie pantheistic virtue signalling from Greg Stafford. The spider metaphor is suspiciously feminist! No Pendragon or Runequest, put it on the list 1989!

"This, my first tattoo, is a part of my transformative healing work. Transformation is difficult work. If it is not difficult, then it is not transformative; it is just improvement. But shamanism offers a process to interact with the nonexistent, or the nonphysical, and manifest it in the world. I had to reveal the core of my vision into this world in order to make it more real. Not more real for me-it can't be more than it is. I mean, to make my vision more real for you. I'll explain as much as I can in print.

"This shows the world, the three worlds. This is the Above, this is the Below. This is the Light, this is the Darkness. This is the One, this is the Many. Each thing inside another is another world, another dimension, another depth or meaning and majesty.

"Look below here - this is the web of being. Everywhere two webs meet is something in life, an event or a place or a person or a thought or a dream or voice or vision or pain or terror or realizations that some day we will die. This net, the visible part, is the world of relationships - see how they cast their own shadows?

"And in the center there, that's the spider woman who came to me in darkness and scared the hell out of me for years. Something horrible happened and she came, and at first she was just another terrible thing. But she kept everything away from me for decades, and at last I learned her language. Sometimes she comes now in a sweat lodge to help healing, sometimes she still guards me. See her head, it's on fire. That is how to find her - head for the light. She is the center there, where fire and darkness are one. It's a terrible and horrible place to try to get to - not so bad once you get there.

"But the whole thing there, that is the world of shadows where we live. But that whole world grows too, and you can see that one tree there - that's me, or you. It takes the energy from below - the great confusion of joy and pleasure and hate and fear and screwing up and love - and that tree takes it all into itself, that tree does, and it brings the power upward from Below, up to the world of the Above. That's what the tree does.

"And above there is the sky - you see it, blue, up beyond the clouds. An eagle took me there once so I could look down more clearly. You can tell which way the eagle is going by the constellations: the Great Bear and the Hunter. And there is the sun, inside the sky, and inside it is something else. And from it, through the sun, you see, out comes light, bright light that comes out from the One, out from the Above, to warm the clouds and the trees and the world of below. And it streams into the world as sunlight, and lightning, and rain."

The final nail in Costikyan's coffin: an Escapist interview where he says he like Leigh Alexander's writing and slams Gamergaters! (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12392-Greg-Costikyan-GamerGate-Interview)

1989 please put WEG Star Wars, Toon, Ghostbusters and the aforementioned games on your list! We'll get rid of all these SJWs yet!

Quote from: Voros;970024Nothing like Red Dawn. That film takes itself way too seriously, that's what makes the film such a bore after its dynamite opening. The only real humour is inadvertent: I remember the 'Wolverine!' scene evoking laughs when I saw it in a theatre.

Was it a Canadian theater out of curiosity? The film clearly had a target market and I wouldn't think that was it. Red Dawn catches allot of flak for "America, Fuck  yeah!" ness and its a reasonable accusation. But I don't think there's a huge issue with patriotic movies. But some tend to forget some things about it.

The US was in such in bind because it didn't have allies.

The movie depicted  insurgency (with some surprise help from an experienced military operative) fighting on its home ground against an invading force that expected cake walk and instead meeting a surprisingly aggressive resistance. Which can be effective for awhile. The USSR and US have found that out the hard way.

When the invader got serious, most of them died, the rest fled. They didn't drive off the invaders alone.

Its not a cinema classic by a stretch, just a cheesy but kind of fun action movie with some flag waving. But not the borderline propaganda piece some have accused it of being. :)

Quote from: Spinachcat;970045And it would be as meaningless as "go ask an Italian" or "go ask a woman" because people aren't mouthpieces for their entire identity group.

Now this is the only real issue I had with the statement, not that Trans people are so rare that saying talk to one is like asking for Bigfoot toe nail clippings. There's at least one person that IDs as Trans on this board.

But people are not a hivemind. The same reductionist sentiment was tossed around on TPB many times when it come to gender issues to the point women with different opinions were ignored or, ironically "mansplained" too about their incorrect thoughts.  I mean, Hell, there are blacks that claim to support the KKK. I've seen one person that ID'ed as Trans arguing against the "Bathroom bills".

Quote from: Rincewind1;970052Now, now, no need for mockery, everyone had that time when they were 16 and experimenting.

Aw but he makes it so easy :(

Quote from: Spinachcat;970045We need to reduce federal bloat. There's no question.

I am not an Obama fan, but I don't see his other options. The federal discrimination laws are going to support the transgenders, especially those with a valid medical diagnosis.

Any states who craft a trans policy that's not in line with federal discrimination laws is going to asking for a lawsuit.  

The reason I smell bullshit politics is because trannys have been peeing and pooping for decades and nobody cared where until now.

I absolutely agree, but the bullshit politics came from the Obama Administration when they turned this into an issue. It was just about guaranteed to cause legal battles.

Quote from: Spinachcat;970045Do you have a link to that criteria? I had not heard that.

Trannys in school is a concern because of PE changing / showering. I have no idea how we simultaneously support the trannys right to be free of discrimination with other parents' concerns for their kids safety and well being. Just telling 99.97% of the population to suck it up and accommodate the .03% isn't a real plan and its a bad precedent.

Here is the PBS article on the guidance. (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/obama-administration-to-decree-transgender-access-for-public-school-bathrooms/)

Quote from: Money Quote from PBS articleThe guidance from leaders at the departments of Education and Justice says public schools are obligated to treat transgender students in a way that matches their gender identity, even if their education records or identity documents indicate a different sex.

And here is the guidance memo released by the Obama Administration itself. (https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201605-title-ix-transgender.pdf)

A lot of the hang-up is the determination of gender identity is not objective and instead decided by the individual based on how they feel. This is where we get the ridiculous meme of "I identify as an attack helicopter for my gender".

(Are you paying attention Voros and Headless? THIS is how you fuckers source a claim, not by pulling whatever out of your ass from a bullshit source like Facebook for voting records.)

Quote from: Voros;970056I mean this is from the guy who designed Toon and Paranoia.I think Costikyan's mistake was assuming gamers were adult enough to get it.

Well it looks like their "Note to Liberal Readers" was highly effective on you guys, at least! :D

Quote from: Voros;970058The final nail in Costikyan's coffin: an Escapist interview where he says he like Leigh Alexander's writing and slams Gamergaters! (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12392-Greg-Costikyan-GamerGate-Interview)

Anyone who gets their view of Gamergate from the media is going to slam Gamergaters. That may make you an idiot but it doesn't make you an SJW. The SJWs are the ones creating the lies in the first place.

Quote from: Nexus;970061Was it a Canadian theater out of curiosity? The film clearly had a target market and I wouldn't think that was it. Red Dawn catches allot of flak for "America, Fuck  yeah!" ness and its a reasonable accusation. But I don't think there's a huge issue with patriotic movies. But some tend to forget some things about it.

The US was in such in bind because it didn't have allies.

The movie depicted  insurgency (with some surprise help from an experienced military operative) fighting on its home ground against an invading force that expected cake walk and instead meeting a surprisingly aggressive resistance. Which can be effective for awhile. The USSR and US have found that out the hard way.

When the invader got serious, most of them died, the rest fled. They didn't drive off the invaders alone.

Its not a cinema classic by a stretch, just a cheesy but kind of fun action movie with some flag waving. But not the borderline propaganda piece some have accused it of being. :)

I stand by my view that it mixed fantasy combat sequences with an often very realistic & nuanced view of the dynamics of insurgency and counter-insurgency, taken from US experience in Vietnam, USSR in Afghanistan, and US involvement in Latin America.

Anyway the objections to RD (as with T:2000 and PoF) were not "This is unrealistic!", they were "How dare you suggest the USSR is not a peaceful power that Wants The Best For Everyone!" I rem an '80s Bond movie which opens in the Soviet Politburo. The mad villain Soviet General is wanting to strike at the Fulda Gap, saying the Americans wouldn't dare use nukes and their tank armies can roll over Western Europe (which seemed very plausible at the time). The Soviet Premier denies the plan, saying "Communism will take over the world through peaceful means." - thus making the movie acceptable to mainstream '80s Liberal opinion.

Quote from: jeff37923;970074I absolutely agree, but the bullshit politics came from the Obama Administration when they turned this into an issue. It was just about guaranteed to cause legal battles.

There already were legal battles at the local and state levels about bathroom access long before the Obama Administration issues anything regarding it. I think legal battles were inevitable once transgender people started gaining visibility and started being more open about themselves.

Quote from: Spinachcat;970045Trannys in school is a concern because of PE changing / showering. I have no idea how we simultaneously support the trannys right to be free of discrimination with other parents' concerns for their kids safety and well being. Just telling 99.97% of the population to suck it up and accommodate the .03% isn't a real plan and its a bad precedent.

Quote from: jeff37923;970074A lot of the hang-up is the determination of gender identity is not objective and instead decided by the individual based on how they feel. This is where we get the ridiculous meme of "I identify as an attack helicopter for my gender".

To Spinachcat - the whole point of individual civil rights is that yes, sometimes 99.97% of the population has to suck it up and accept that the .03% of the population still gets exactly the same rights as everyone else. That's been the case over and over again with civil rights, and it will continue to be. Frankly, a lot of people are uncomfortable either way with transgender students and would prefer that they simply aren't allowed to use restrooms with other students at all. However, they still have rights and those people just have to suck it up.

It wasn't too long ago that exactly the same concerns were raised over gay and lesbian people - i.e. that it wasn't safe for girls to have lesbian students or coaches in their locker rooms, or to have lesbian teachers, because that would mean that the lesbians could get a peek at them nude, or harrass them.

Jeff - I'm curious about what you would call for. As I see it, the options include:

1) Restrict bathroom use by genetic sex:  This is objective, but requires genetic testing. So if there is a complaint or problem regarding someone, it has to go to court and have medical testing ordered. It also means that a bearded person with a penis is required against his will to use the girls restroom, and similar.
2) Restrict bathroom use by genitalia:  This is also largely objective, but it means that if there is a problem or complaint, that someone has to do a genital inspection test to resolve the issue. It still means that bearded person who otherwise passes as male is required to go into the girls restroom, and similar.
3) Restrict bathroom bill by visual passing:  This is subjective, and requires some authority to determine who passes or not. Further, there are a people who don't pass either way.
4) Restrict bathroom use by personal identification: This is the subjective, but doesn't require an assigned authority or inspections.

Option 4 is the small Gov option.

Quote from: jhkim;970088There already were legal battles at the local and state levels about bathroom access long before the Obama Administration issues anything regarding it. I think legal battles were inevitable once transgender people started gaining visibility and started being more open about themselves.

Sources?

Quote from: jhkim;970088Jeff - I'm curious about what you would call for. As I see it, the options include:

1) Restrict bathroom use by genetic sex:  This is objective, but requires genetic testing. So if there is a complaint or problem regarding someone, it has to go to court and have medical testing ordered. It also means that a bearded person with a penis is required against his will to use the girls restroom, and similar.
2) Restrict bathroom use by genitalia:  This is also largely objective, but it means that if there is a problem or complaint, that someone has to do a genital inspection test to resolve the issue. It still means that bearded person who otherwise passes as male is required to go into the girls restroom, and similar.
3) Restrict bathroom bill by visual passing:  This is subjective, and requires some authority to determine who passes or not. Further, there are a people who don't pass either way.
4) Restrict bathroom use by personal identification: This is the subjective, but doesn't require an assigned authority or inspections.

jhkim - I'm curious about what you would call for in this situation as well.

In schools, I would limit it to genetic sex or by genitalia. And I think that the "bearded person" example in your number 1) is about as disingenuous as you can get on the subject.

However, you do demonstrate how the Obama Administration has created a mess out of something that probably should have been left alone.

Quote from: jeff37923;970074(Are you paying attention Voros and Headless? THIS is how you fuckers source a claim, not by pulling whatever out of your ass from a bullshit source like Facebook for voting records.)

Those links don't meet the Chicago manual of style.  I'm afraid I can not take your argument seriously until you learn to use propper citation.

Quote from: Spinachcat;970045Do you have a link to that criteria? I had not heard that.

Trannys in school is a concern because of PE changing / showering. I have no idea how we simultaneously support the trannys right to be free of discrimination with other parents' concerns for their kids safety and well being. Just telling 99.97% of the population to suck it up and accommodate the .03% isn't a real plan and its a bad precedent.

I feel its because of the changing and showers that are a concern more so than bathroom. There are unisex restrooms already and gender segregating single occupancy bathrooms always struck me as odd. I find the focus on bathrooms a little odd due to barring some rare exceptions such as trans people that don't make any attempt to pass for their internal gender (and they do exist, admittedly) but otherwise demand to be treated as such its not much of an issue.

But for locker rooms and showers its less of a safety issue except for real bigots than modesty and emotional concerns about their children's well being. Whatever you think about the nature of Trans individuals externally, barring surgery, they're going to appear as their biological gender and that's the impact they're going to have when that's in plain view. Communal nudity is uncomfortable enough or many people particularly adolescents without throwing a new wrinkle into it. As one parent put it. "I don't want to deny anyone rights but what about my child's right to have when  she sees a nude person of the opposite gender by her choice?" Inter-gender nudity is a big thing in US culture. That might change some day but right now it is and telling those people to suck it up doesn't seem like it will work.

Bit how do you balance that against now discriminating more than absolutely required? Its tough. The best idea I came up with mandating that schools and other facilities provide private or semi private changing areas for everyone requires time and money and doesn't immediately address the issue.

Quote from: Headless;970094Option 4 is the small Gov option.

Its never about "small government" its about "government that's just big enough to do the things that I want and not an inch more." :D

Tyranny of the minority is just as bad as tyranny of the majority. Since the current approach also harms social cohesion and is wide open to exploitation it's arguably worse.

Oh, my, there is more pearl clutching here than a Jane Austin convention.

Quote from: Voros;970058The final nail in Costikyan's coffin: an Escapist interview where he says he like Leigh Alexander's writing and slams Gamergaters! (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12392-Greg-Costikyan-GamerGate-Interview)

1989 please put WEG Star Wars, Toon, Ghostbusters and the aforementioned games on your list! We'll get rid of all these SJWs yet!

The great purge of 2017.

Originally Posted by Voros  View Post
The final nail in Costikyan's coffin: an Escapist interview where he says he like Leigh Alexander's writing and slams Gamergaters!

1989 please put WEG Star Wars, Toon, Ghostbusters and the aforementioned games on your list! We'll get rid of all these SJWs yet!
------


Unclean! Unclean!  Burn out the ideologically impure!

Quote from: S'mon;970117Tyranny of the minority is just as bad as tyranny of the majority. Since the current approach also harms social cohesion and is wide open to exploitation it's arguably worse.

Gee, I can't remember which popular ideology put social cohesion as the most important factor.

Quote from: Rincewind1;970143Gee, I can't remember which popular ideology put social cohesion as the most important factor.

Socialism.

Quote from: S'mon;970144Socialism.

Sure, that is why class peace and coexistence is a core tenant of it.

Quote from: Rincewind1;970150Sure, that is why class peace and coexistence is a core tenant of it.

Lots of socialists aren't big on class peace, that's more a Fascist thing.

Fascism, Socialism, Communism and German-style social-democatic Corporatism all emphasise community cohesion. The only major ideology I can think of that doesn't is Liberalism. Liberalism is big on autonomous co-existence which is quite a different idea.

Quote from: S'mon;970157Lots of socialists aren't big on class peace, that's more a Fascist thing.

No shit Sherlock. Good god, Prachett was right, you  lot really should learn sarcasm in schools.

QuoteFascism, Socialism, Communism and German-style social-democatic Corporatism all emphasise community cohesion. The only major ideology I can think of that doesn't is Liberalism. Liberalism is big on autonomous co-existence which is quite a different idea.

Aaaand wrong again - only Fascism and Corporatism (nice going by calling it social-democratic, by the way, I see you slept through your political history) genuinely put social cohesion as the most important part of their ideology. Communism is clear on the idea of class struggle until worldwide utopia is reached.

Quote from: jeff37923;970097Sources?

For a timeline of some of the legal issues, below is a decent overview. Notably, the Obama Administration memo to schools came after the South Dakota bill and North Carolina law.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/us/transgender-bathroom-law.html?mcubz=1

Quote from: jeff37923;970097jhkim - I'm curious about what you would call for in this situation as well.

In schools, I would limit it to genetic sex or by genitalia. And I think that the "bearded person" example in your number 1) is about as disingenuous as you can get on the subject.

However, you do demonstrate how the Obama Administration has created a mess out of something that probably should have been left alone.

I support gender identification as the criteria, both for schools and more broadly for bathroom access. This has been an increasing trend in a number of localities and universities, which is why states like South Dakota and North Carolina started to legislate against this, and in turn prompted the administration to declare rules on it for Title IX. I don't like the idea of either required genetic testing or genital inspection, which I feel is unduly invasive, and fails to solve problems. Those who are uncomfortable with transgender people are generally uncomfortable with them regardless of which bathroom they are in.

There is the potential problem of students who aren't actually transgender claiming to be so as a prank, but that's best dealt with as a disciplinary issue by their parents and teachers. I think for underage students, it's reasonable to require parental confirmation of their gender.

Specifically for K-12 schools, then a bearded person isn't likely (both because kids don't have beards much, and because transgender students don't generally start on hormones yet), but I was talking about bathroom access in general. Would you have different criteria for adults than for K-12 students, such as bathroom access at a government building? For adults, then I don't think a bearded person with a penis is at all disingenuous. The standard cases include trans-women and trans-men, both pre-op and post-op.

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Quote from: jhkim;970166Specifically for K-12 schools, then a bearded person isn't likely (both because kids don't have beards much, and because transgender students don't generally start on hormones yet), but I was talking about bathroom access in general. Would you have different criteria for adults than for K-12 students, such as bathroom access at a government building? For adults, then I don't think a bearded person with a penis is at all disingenuous. The standard cases include trans-women and trans-men, both pre-op and post-op.

Bolding mine. I was talking about trans bathroom use in schools specifically. You are shifting some goalposts, but yes there would be some differences between the rules of a school and the rules outside of a school.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;970122Oh, my, there is more pearl clutching here than a Jane Austin convention.

When is your authored vaporware going to become an actual book?

The entire argument is fucking retarded. In any public facility, let anyone go to whatever bathroom they fucking want. Period.
Anything else is covered by existing laws (as in, "what it someone does something BAD in a bathroom"?).

And seriously, who the fuck thinks that a teenager in a public school is going to tell everyone he's transgender just to get to fondle girls in a locker room?! Do they not remember high school?

Quote from: RPGPundit;970181The entire argument is fucking retarded. In any public facility, let anyone go to whatever bathroom they fucking want. Period.
Anything else is covered by existing laws (as in, "what it someone does something BAD in a bathroom"?).

And seriously, who the fuck thinks that a teenager in a public school is going to tell everyone he's transgender just to get to fondle girls in a locker room?! Do they not remember high school?

Exactly, which leads me to wonder why the Obama Administration chose to make this a Federal Government issue at all.

Palladium
GURPS
Basic Fantasy

Feel free to add more.

Pendragon
Call of Cthulhu

Palladium
GURPS
Basic Fantasy
Pendragon
Call of Cthulhu

Even with the Infinity Kickstarter really late,  I'll add Modiphius Conan, Mutant Chronicles, and (eventually) Infinity.

Quote from: Nexus;970061Was it a Canadian theater out of curiosity? The film clearly had a target market and I wouldn't think that was it. Red Dawn catches allot of flak for "America, Fuck  yeah!" ness and its a reasonable accusation. But I don't think there's a huge issue with patriotic movies. But some tend to forget some things about it.

The US was in such in bind because it didn't have allies.

The movie depicted  insurgency (with some surprise help from an experienced military operative) fighting on its home ground against an invading force that expected cake walk and instead meeting a surprisingly aggressive resistance. Which can be effective for awhile. The USSR and US have found that out the hard way.

When the invader got serious, most of them died, the rest fled. They didn't drive off the invaders alone.

Its not a cinema classic by a stretch, just a cheesy but kind of fun action movie with some flag waving. But not the borderline propaganda piece some have accused it of being. :)

Yeah it was a Canadian theatre. Even as kids we sensed how unlikely the storyline was. Maybe because we grew up in a military town.

My main issue with the film isn't the politics it's that it is boring after the inspired opening. Invasion USA is a much more entertaining take on the same idea.

Quote from: S'mon;970087Anyway the objections to RD (as with T:2000 and PoF) were not "This is unrealistic!", they were "How dare you suggest the USSR is not a peaceful power that Wants The Best For Everyone!"

Nonsense. The film was considered a camp classic upom release due to the absurdity of its premise. As if the first thing the Soviets would do is parachute into the Midwest and shoot a principal. Milius himself acknowledged it was not possible.

Quote from: S'mon;970085Well it looks like their "Note to Liberal Readers" was highly effective on you guys, at least! :D

?? You think it was disengenous and Costikyan, who had already paraodied anti-Communist paranoia, was actually a secret true believer right winger? If you want to tie yourself into logical knots like that to maintain your odd belief have at it.

Quote from: Nexus;970063Now this is the only real issue I had with the statement, not that Trans people are so rare that saying talk to one is like asking for Bigfoot toe nail clippings. There's at least one person that IDs as Trans on this board.

But people are not a hivemind. The same reductionist sentiment was tossed around on TPB many times when it come to gender issues to the point women with different opinions were ignored or, ironically "mansplained" too about their incorrect thoughts.  I mean, Hell, there are blacks that claim to support the KKK. I've seen one person that ID'ed as Trans arguing against the "Bathroom bills".

Fair enough it was made out of exasperation because as jeff has proven repeatedly he is probably the most retarded troll on the site. My point was that the trans community clearly are no supporters of Trump, ditto the general queer and black community. Course there are always those who split from the majority but to claim that it is somehow unsubstainiated that the queer and trans communities don't like Trump is as silly as disputing that the majority of the black community feel they are targeted by cops.

Quote from: S'mon;970086Anyone who gets their view of Gamergate from the media is going to slam Gamergaters. That may make you an idiot but it doesn't make you an SJW. The SJWs are the ones creating the lies in the first place.

You seem to have an issue detecting irony S'mon.

Quote from: jeff37923;970182Exactly, which leads me to wonder why the Obama Administration chose to make this a Federal Government issue at all.

That instaneous flip flop of yours must've hurt your back. As soon as Pundit pipes in you do a 180 and bury your nose in his ass. Hilarious.

Quote from: Voros;970275That instaneous flip flop of yours must've hurt your back. As soon as Pundit pipes in you do a 180 and bury your nose in his ass. Hilarious.

See, this is why you amuse me. You have assumed that I am anti-GBLT just because I disagree that the GOP is anti-GBLT. I should be OK with this because there are several other mental midgets on this forum who believe that since I supported the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (Indiana), that I am anti-GBLT. See, I am anti-bullshit and pro-effectiveness in advocating my political beliefs whereas you are anti-effectiveness and pro-bullshit in advocating yours. This is why I have been embarrassing you in our conversations. You and others have chosen methods that result in negative effectiveness when handling a political agenda.

But please, continue. I will be right here chanting, "Dance monkey! Dance!"

Quote from: jeff37923;970074A lot of the hang-up is the determination of gender identity is not objective and instead decided by the individual based on how they feel. This is where we get the ridiculous meme of "I identify as an attack helicopter for my gender".

Thank you for the links.

I see the hang up here. There is no verification method for "gender identity". To enroll in school, you must bring your kid's birth certificate and social security number and there's lots of data there. But "gender identity" is just "what I say it is" and there appears to be a concern that "gender fluid" means "whatever I feel at the moment" and that throws a wrench into the monkey.

I seems to me the Obama Administration could have helped themselves if schools were to add a line to their database for "gender identity". Then, there could be some sense of "accountability" to the data.

Quote from: jhkim;970088To Spinachcat - the whole point of individual civil rights is that yes, sometimes 99.97% of the population has to suck it up and accept that the .03% of the population still gets exactly the same rights as everyone else.

This isn't exact same rights. This is telling women that a man gets to come in their shower room and they have to STFU about it. Maybe the future is unisex everything, but that's a big leap from here for many people.

I couldn't care who shits in the stall next to me, and I don't have kids so that isn't an issue to me either. BUT if the Democrats think telling 99.97% of the voters to suck it up is a good idea for their political future, I would like to present Exhibit A: Donald Trump as a counter point.

Exhibit B would be the Democrat's loss in Georgia today after wasting more money on a House race than ever before in US history.

I am sensitive to the obvious civil rights issue, but I am willing to consider the concerns and acknowledge the fears of the other side.

Quote from: jhkim;970088It wasn't too long ago that exactly the same concerns were raised over gay and lesbian people - i.e. that it wasn't safe for girls to have lesbian students or coaches in their locker rooms, or to have lesbian teachers, because that would mean that the lesbians could get a peek at them nude, or harrass them.

This is absolutely true.

And maybe that's how the tranny issues passes too. Maybe we give it a few years and nobody cares anymore.

Quote from: S'mon;970117Since the current approach also harms social cohesion and is wide open to exploitation it's arguably worse.

If the US ever had "social cohesion", its been dead as long as I've been alive.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;970122Oh, my, there is more pearl clutching here than a Jane Austin convention.

But they are Pearls of Power!!!

Quote from: Headless;970140Unclean! Unclean!  Burn out the ideologically impure!

Is the DNC's 2018 bumper sticker?

Quote from: RPGPundit;970181The entire argument is fucking retarded. In any public facility, let anyone go to whatever bathroom they fucking want. Period.
Anything else is covered by existing laws (as in, "what it someone does something BAD in a bathroom"?).

I agree on the existing law issue. We have plenty of laws about harassment on the books. And we also don't have a history of trannys harming people or children in bathrooms across the nation. There apparently have been a handful of incidents, but no trans-spree of ass grabbing. Instead, the US does have too many documented incidents of violence against trans people.

The argument is less about public bathrooms. It's more about bathrooms/showers in schools and gyms and the rights a business owner may or may not have to determine who uses which crapper in their private business.

But yeah, it's a weird political focus. We have 2 "kinda-wars" draining our coffers and a crumbling infrastructure, but Team Red and Team Blue are all hot and bothered about where Caitlyn's crew makes their poopie.

Quote from: RPGPundit;970181And seriously, who the fuck thinks that a teenager in a public school is going to tell everyone he's transgender just to get to fondle girls in a locker room?! Do they not remember high school?

My crew played LOTS of pranks in high school. This would have been a new weapon in our arsenal.

And I am unsure if Obama's bathroom bill helped anyone. Are we to believe the trans-kid felt fine taking a shower with the opposite sex? Are we to believe things went better for that kid in school after they got naked in the "wrong" shower?

Quote from: fearsomepirate;969583Note that the left has long ago left behind any factual or scientific basis for its claims and instead relies on shaming.

Also #Fear. Don't forget #Fear.

Quote from: Aglondir;969608What's with all of the #?

It's a jab at the last post rpg.net banned me for and a meta-commentary on the state of internet discussion, and at this point has become somewhat of a signature of mine.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;969633It bears remembering that one can appreciate game design without sharing the designer's opinions.

And that doing so is not some great moral failing.

Quote from: Voros;969692By the time 1989 is done the only game he'll be able to play will be MYFAROG.

Wait...

MYFAROG...MY FAROG...MY FROG...#Pepe

Dear god, it all makes sense now!

Quote from: RPGPundit;969923Parties get subverted and radically redefined quite frequently.

This is also something worth remembering.

Quote from: Dumarest;969983In my experience, most people upset by homosexual PDAs are deeply worried that they'll like it and think that by avoiding seeing it, they can avoid facing their own desires of which they feel ashamed. Seeing others freely doing what they secretly wish makes them emotionally confused and angry. Just as the politicians and clergymen who rant the most about the evils of homosexuality are the ones who end up getting caught soliciting sex with men in the boys' room.

This apparently applies to anti-Gamergaters too :p

Seriously though, painting everyone who objects to something as secretly desiring the same is a cheap rhetorical trick that rarely holds in reality. Trust me, those who bully me do not envy me or any of my aspects, and I'm damn certain #WhiteSupremacists do not secretly wish they were black.

Quote from: Voros;970024Your reading of 'A Note to Liberal Readers' is tone deaf if you think it suggests it's not a parody. The sense of irony is strong throughout. Milius' Red Dawn wouldn't know irony if it stuck a grenade down its pants. And I say that as a huge admirer of his film The Big Wednesday.

Okay, we know that some of you are going to be uncomfortable with the premise of THE PRICE OF FREEDOM. We didn't do the game to offend your sensibilities; we did it to give you an enjoyable roleplaying experience. And we see no reason why you shouldn't enjoy the game without compromising your political beliefs, whatever they may be. Here's why: You, personally, don't have to believe the average Soviet soldier is a bloodthirsty killer, or that the Soviet Union could occupy the United States in the next five years. (We don't, either ;)

THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is a fantasy roleplaying game in the true sense of the word; its fantasy is the right-Wing nightmare that America is delivered into the hands of her enemies. You don't have to approve of secret agents blowing up everybody they take a dislike to to enjoy a James Bond film ...Think of the game as The lord of the Rings meets William F. Buckley: the Evil Empire of the East . . . uh, that is, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ... masses its troops to assault the last remaining Citadel of the Sons of the Morning . . oops, the last bastion of liberty in an unfree world: Only you stand between the forces of darkness and world dominion; you, the valiant freedom fighter, must strike a blow for liberty. The question isn't whether or not such a terrible thing could happen, but whether or not you could enjoy pretending it has.

Roleplaying works best when everybody involved suspends disbelief and lives the fantasy. The world of THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is remarkably easy to enter: You play yourself or someone you could reasonably expect to meet on the street. No problem imagining yourself in either of those roles. The setting is modern-day America. Again, no imagination problem.

You defend your home, your family and your friends from real enemies. You and yours are not being threatened by aliens from Proxima Centauri, or some other hypothetical creation from the pages of fiction, but by the armed forces and secret
police of America's sworn rival. They'll kick your dog, they'll reduce Baskin-Robbins' 31 flavors to 3, they'll cancel Moonlighting . . . and then they'll take away your basic human rights. But only if you let them.

That's saying it flippantly, but forget the politics: THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is a dramatic game. Villains are destroying you. They're taking your house, your car, your VCR; they're threatening your family; they're teaching lies to your children. The situation is so intolerable that the only possible response is rage.

We could have done it with a right-wing coup in Washington or mind-devouring alien spore pods but a Soviet takeover is far more powerful precisely because the Soviets have been our antagonists for so long.

Rage is important; the fun part of the game is its release. You can see yourself grabbing a deer rifle and heading for the hills. You can see yourself as a bloodthirsty Rambo, charging through all adversity, crying, "Do svidanya, tovarisch;' as you machinegun down rank upon rank of the godless Communists who wish to destroy the American way.

That catharsis is fun. Let's face it, we'd all like to blow things up. We'd all like to crush our enemies. Fortunately, society forbids us to act on those impulses. THE PRICE OF FREEDOM releases those emotions. And as a result, it can be a gas.

Blow it up! Blow it up real good!
Eat hot death, Commie dog!
That's the ticket!

First, I don't know how much clearer this could be in pointing out the spirit in which the game is meant to be played.

Second, it shows that at one point people were willing to engage with a premise because it was fun regardless of whether it reflected their political values. Now there's a small but growing contingent that not only isn't, but is claiming that it's a moral failing if your games don't endorse your political values.

Then again, I guess this kind of sarcasm could be considered political itself.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;970122Oh, my, there is more pearl clutching here than a Jane Austin convention.

Apparently you've never been to one :)

Quote from: Rincewind1;970161Communism is clear on the idea of class struggle until worldwide utopia is reached.

I was going to start writing what kind of bullshit is communism but I rather continue talking about rpgs.

Quote from: Spinachcat;970296This isn't exact same rights. This is telling women that a man gets to come in their shower room and they have to STFU about it. Maybe the future is unisex everything, but that's a big leap from here for many people.

I couldn't care who shits in the stall next to me, and I don't have kids so that isn't an issue to me either.

Allot of people apparently don't or get used to it fairly quickly (or unisex bathrooms become unofficially gender segregated by the users choice). Its the shower, locker rooms where it seems to become more touchy for many people. I really think it was a mistake lumping them together. One side focuses most of its attention on the area where they have a point as does the other so there is almost no chance of reaching that dreaded state called a compromise. It all or nothing  like everything else when it comes to political debate especially on social issues.

Quote from: Nexus;970335Allot of people apparently don't or get used to it fairly quickly (or unisex bathrooms become unofficially gender segregated by the users choice). Its the shower, locker rooms where it seems to become more touchy for many people. I really think it was a mistake lumping them together. One side focuses most of its attention on the area where they have a point as does the other so there is almost no chance of reaching that dreaded state called a compromise. It all or nothing  like everything else when it comes to political debate especially on social issues.

Of course it's not, how do you compromise on bathroom usage? ID checks before entering? People with any sort of facial hair restricted to men's facilities?

Quote from: Rincewind1;970336Of course it's not, how do you compromise on bathroom usage? ID checks before entering? People with any sort of facial hair restricted to men's facilities?

You don't.  You let the individual business set its own policy.  Don't like it?  Go somewhere else.

I'm curious: how many transgender people are out there trying to use public restrooms? Based on news coverage it seems 50% of the population must be switching from boy to girl or vice versa as this is clearly a huge issue. More importantly, can we get decent toilet paper in sufficient quantities in these public restrooms?

Quote from: Rincewind1;970336Of course it's not, how do you compromise on bathroom usage? ID checks before entering? People with any sort of facial hair restricted to men's facilities?

I guess I wasn't clear. The point I was trying to make was that bathrooms and facilities like locker rooms, communal showers, etc are different issues. A compromise would involve separate laws or some degree of nuance instead of a blanket rulings. They're two different situations that should be treated differently. There was my idea about mandating private or semi private shower and changing facilities too.

Quote from: Dumarest;970366I'm curious: how many transgender people are out there trying to use public restrooms? Based on news coverage it seems 50% of the population must be switching from boy to girl or vice versa as this is clearly a huge issue. More importantly, can we get decent toilet paper in sufficient quantities in these public restrooms?

Probably as many as there were before all this became an issue. Most of them time, I doubt anyone noticed except in some isolated cases such as Transgenders that were obviously not their internal gender (the "bearded man in a dress" stereotype).

Over in Europe a number of public restrooms had nonspecific individual toilet rooms... not stalls, rooms... and everybody washed their hands in the same area.  Oh, the horror.

Also, communal showers are an abomination anyway.

Anyone else find it wonderfull that a thread that began as an attempt to start a witch hunt against game companies with social justice leanings leaped straight into the shitter?

Quote from: Headless;970377Anyone else find it wonderfull that a thread that began as an attempt to start a witch hunt against game companies with social justice leanings leaped straight into the shitter?

(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/03/031bc319eeda30437eebc10a56be9b9e0127f5d1f0bb0c95e3b2bfcada8a5995.jpg)

Quote from: Nexus;970335Allot of people apparently don't or get used to it fairly quickly (or unisex bathrooms become unofficially gender segregated by the users choice). Its the shower, locker rooms where it seems to become more touchy for many people. I really think it was a mistake lumping them together.

I have no problem with the bathroom use thing, except when it is forced into schools. Most people I know did not have a solid handle on what their sexual identity was until they were around 16 or so and I sincerely doubt that a 7 year old has enough of an idea about that to determine what gender they are.

Quote from: Headless;970377Anyone else find it wonderfull that a thread that began as an attempt to start a witch hunt against game companies with social justice leanings leaped straight into the shitter?

That is only because the whole modern concept of social justice is full of shit.

Definitely a shitty topic.

Quote from: RPGPundit;970181And seriously, who the fuck thinks that a teenager in a public school is going to tell everyone he's transgender just to get to fondle girls in a locker room?! Do they not remember high school?

How about the adult changing rooms in health clubs & public swimming pools?

We already have issues with Muslim mothers bringing their pubescent 12 year old sons into the women's changing rooms because they think their boy will be raped if left alone in the men's changing rooms (from what my Kuwaiti princess friend told me, this would be a credible fear in the Arab Gulf; not so much in a London Virgin Active.)

I suspect eventually all public changing will have to go to unisex "village changing", this seems to already be the standard model for public swimming pools in the UK, but private health clubs are lagging behind.

Quote from: Voros;970269Nonsense. The film was considered a camp classic upom release due to the absurdity of its premise. As if the first thing the Soviets would do is parachute into the Midwest and shoot a principal. Milius himself acknowledged it was not possible.

I'm going by the UK. Mainstream left-liberal opinion here was terrified of anything that might provoke the Russians. Much the way they feel about the Islamists now.

Quote from: Voros;970270?? You think it was disengenous and Costikyan, who had already paraodied anti-Communist paranoia, was actually a secret true believer right winger? If you want to tie yourself into logical knots like that to maintain your odd belief have at it.

No, I don't think it was disingenuous. He certainly never said "I'm a Lefty just like you, honest!"

Quote from: Voros;970274You seem to have an issue detecting irony S'mon.

It's called 'agree and amplify', Voros.

Quote from: jeff37923;970417I have no problem with the bathroom use thing, except when it is forced into schools. Most people I know did not have a solid handle on what their sexual identity was until they were around 16 or so...

They didn't know if they were gay, straight or bi?

Quote from: S'mon;970466I'm going by the UK. Mainstream left-liberal opinion here was terrified of anything that might provoke the Russians. Much the way they feel about the Islamists now.

I didn't realize they needed provocation.

Quote from: S'mon;970472They didn't know if they were gay, straight or bi?

Or even if they were an attack helicopter.....

(Sorry, gender and sexual identity are very closely related to me.)

Sure some people may not be sure for a while.  But others know what gender they are and who they want to boink before they even knowvwhat boinking is.

Quote from: S'mon;970466I'm going by the UK. Mainstream left-liberal opinion here was terrified of anything that might provoke the Russians. Much the way they feel about the Islamists now.

Certainly the English left have a long and odd tradition of being supine towards Marxist-Leninism/Stalinism. The only living Statlinist I ever met was English and some elements of the English left still seem obsessed with defending Putin and Russia, out of some sentimental or confused attachment to the former-Soviet Union, or just knee-jerk anti-Americanism? Hard to tell.

Quote from: S'mon;970468No, I don't think it was disingenuous. He certainly never said "I'm a Lefty just like you, honest!"

As you must realize satirizing something anti-Communism doesn't make him a 'lefty' per se. But for a purist RW like our 1989 such subtleties are going to be irrelevant. Didn't he just complain that some guy had a hyphented last name, which made him some kind of 'cuck'?

Quote from: Voros;970565As you must realize satirizing something anti-Communism doesn't make him a 'lefty' per se. But for a purist RW like our 1989 such subtleties are going to be irrelevant. Didn't he just complain that some guy had a hyphented last name, which made him some kind of 'cuck'?

I think The Price of Freedom is a lot like 2000AD comic's Invasion series from 1977, about a (renamed) Soviet invasion/occupation of the UK. It was created by left-wing authors in that case, but it wasn't satirical or mocking concerns with the Soviet threat (it was more about being pro-working class and mocking the English upper class - this was long before American cultural Marxism replaced our class politics). They wanted to do a modern/future guerilla/resistance series, and the Russians were a credible threat.

I don't think The Price of Freedom is intended as right-wing propaganda, but nor is attacking/satirising right-wing propaganda. It's a game set in Soviet-occupied America. Like, Barbed Wire has Nazis in the White House but is not left-wing propaganda.

Anyway, I can't speak for 1989 but I think West End Games ca 1987 passes any reasonable Purity Test.

Quote from: Voros;970564some elements of the English left still seem obsessed with defending Putin and Russia, out of some sentimental or confused attachment to the former-Soviet Union, or just knee-jerk anti-Americanism? Hard to tell.

I kinda like those elements of the English Left these days, they were the only ones right about the NATO attack on Serbia over fake genocide claims, they were (obviously) right over Iraq 2003, and they're right about Syria now.

Of course I wouldn't want them taking power here.

'Fake genocide' claims in Serbia? Sure, so you're one of those eh? Okay, good to know. England...what a place.

1989, how often are you finding politics in stuff you actually buy?

Not in stuff discussed online, but in stuff you have bought?

Quote from: Rincewind1;970336Of course it's not, how do you compromise on bathroom usage?

I don't know.

That's why we have people wanting it to be a States' Rights issue instead of a Federal one.

And there's the issue about whether private businesses have the right to determine who poops where on their own property.

And there's the school issues.

I am not opposed to unisex communal bathrooms, but I am sure most women would be.
 

Quote from: S'mon;970465We already have issues with Muslim mothers bringing their pubescent 12 year old sons into the women's changing rooms because they think their boy will be raped if left alone in the men's changing rooms (from what my Kuwaiti princess friend told me, this would be a credible fear in the Arab Gulf; not so much in a London Virgin Active.)

Your princess is lying to you. Islam is THE religion of peace. Only white men ever rape and molest. The SJWs told me so.

Quote from: S'mon;970465I suspect eventually all public changing will have to go to unisex "village changing", this seems to already be the standard model for public swimming pools in the UK, but private health clubs are lagging behind.

What is village changing?

Quote from: Voros;970614England...what a place.

Try living next to it :D

A Norwegian princess also promised me once anal if I saved the world, and yet...or wait, maybe that was a film.

Quote from: Spinachcat;970616I am not opposed to unisex communal bathrooms, but I am sure most women would be.

And more than a few men. In the US anyway. From I've read unisex bathrooms tend to be unofficially gender separate (women tend to go to one, men to another) but that might be socially driven more than anything since the opposite happens under some conditions like in college dorms.

Quote from: Nexus;970641And more than a few men. In the US anyway. From I've read unisex bathrooms tend to be unofficially gender separate (women tend to go to one, men to another) but that might be socially driven more than anything since the opposite happens under some conditions like in college dorms.

I've never really seen a lot of "unisex" bathrooms. I have seen a lot of 'family' bathrooms or unisex 'private' bathrooms (that are basically a toilet and a urinal designed for one person at a time). I actually think the 'family' bathroom or the 'private' bathroom are the way to go.

Quote from: Nexus;970641And more than a few men. In the US anyway. From I've read unisex bathrooms tend to be unofficially gender separate (women tend to go to one, men to another) but that might be socially driven more than anything since the opposite happens under some conditions like in college dorms.

I went to a college for a semester that had unisex bathrooms. Personally I found it very awkward. Not something I'd like to become the standard.

Regarding the transgender issue and bathrooms,

Quote from: jeff37923;970178Bolding mine. I was talking about trans bathroom use in schools specifically. You are shifting some goalposts, but yes there would be some differences between the rules of a school and the rules outside of a school.

Sorry, I didn't intend to shift goalposts. In general, my position is:

1) Legally, whoever owns the bathroom should be the general decider for how bathrooms are used. I would prefer that it is not legislated on either the federal or state level.

2) Further, I would prefer that the government be less involved with gender overall. There isn't a need for official government-decided gender on one's driver's license, passport, etc. Gender should be treated like race as far as official documentation.

3) Culturally, I support gender identification as the norm for who uses which bathroom. I consider checks on chromosomes and/or genitalia to be invasive and pointless. For those who are uncomfortable with transgender people, they aren't comfortable with them either way. For example, if someone isn't comfortable with their little girl changing in the same pool locker room as an obvious trans-woman, they also aren't comfortable with their little boy changing in the same pool locker room - and they also won't be comfortable with their little girl changing in the same locker room as a trans-man.

4) The government needs to be involved when it is government-owned bathrooms, like those in government buildings and public schools. For these, I would prefer that they go by gender identification, for both government buildings and public schools.

Quote from: jhkimTo Spinachcat - the whole point of individual civil rights is that yes, sometimes 99.97% of the population has to suck it up and accept that the .03% of the population still gets exactly the same rights as everyone else.

Quote from: SpinachcatThis isn't exact same rights. This is telling women that a man gets to come in their shower room and they have to STFU about it. Maybe the future is unisex everything, but that's a big leap from here for many people.

I couldn't care who shits in the stall next to me, and I don't have kids so that isn't an issue to me either. BUT if the Democrats think telling 99.97% of the voters to suck it up is a good idea for their political future, I would like to present Exhibit A: Donald Trump as a counter point.

Exhibit B would be the Democrat's loss in Georgia today after wasting more money on a House race than ever before in US history.

I am sensitive to the obvious civil rights issue, but I am willing to consider the concerns and acknowledge the fears of the other side.

I would agree that sometimes civil rights issues are losing in terms of popularity. The Democratic party lost big to Nixon in 1968 and Reagan in 1980 after incorporating civil rights into their platform (known as the Republican Southern Strategy), with Carter elected only as a temporary reaction to the Nixon scandal. There may be a similar effect from incorporating LGBT rights into their platform, which cost the Democrats key midwest states.

What is civil rights does depend on viewpoint. When I was growing up in the 1970s, many people were concerned that blacks could come and swim in their swimming pools, and that they were told they just had to shut the fuck up about it. They saw it as an invasion of their rights.

I'm not sure what it means to be sympathetic to the other side. I am willing to discuss, and can see that they feel discomfort, but ultimately I disagree with how they want things.

(also to Spinachcat)

Quote from: jhkimIt wasn't too long ago that exactly the same concerns were raised over gay and lesbian people - i.e. that it wasn't safe for girls to have lesbian students or coaches in their locker rooms, or to have lesbian teachers, because that would mean that the lesbians could get a peek at them nude, or harrass them.

Quote from: SpinachcatThis is absolutely true.

And maybe that's how the tranny issues passes too. Maybe we give it a few years and nobody cares anymore.

Yup. Having a bunch of transgender friends, that's what I would hope for.

I'm glad that the civic spirit of "fuck the minorities if they cost us votes" is well and alive in American society. Second term of Trump is exactly what you lot deserve.

Quote from: Spinachcat;970616What is village changing?

Private unisex cubicles, each big enough for 1-4 people.

Quote from: jhkim;970666orm for who uses which bathroom. I consider checks on chromosomes and/or genitalia to be invasive and pointless. For those who are uncomfortable with transgender people, they aren't comfortable with them either way. For example, if someone isn't comfortable with their little girl changing in the same pool locker room as an obvious trans-woman, they also aren't comfortable with their little boy changing in the same pool locker room - and they also won't be comfortable with their little girl changing in the same locker room as a trans-man.

I'm pretty sure 99.5% of concern is over actual biological men-with-penises (real penises) in the ladies' changing room.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;970653I went to a college for a semester that had unisex bathrooms. Personally I found it very awkward. Not something I'd like to become the standard.

 I admit it would weird at first for me too but I think I could get used to it.

Quote from: Rincewind1;970672I'm glad that the civic spirit of "fuck the minorities if they cost us votes" is well and alive in American society. Second term of Trump is exactly what you lot deserve.

Are you talking to me?

Quote from: Nexus;970685I admit it would weird at first for me too but I think I could get used to it.

I didn't get used to it. My guess is most people wouldn't be happy with this option if it were all that was available.

Quote from: S'mon;970674Private unisex cubicles, each big enough for 1-4 people.

Oh, Thank you. That's not a bad idea really.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;970687I didn't get used to it. My guess is most people wouldn't be happy with this option if it were all that was available.

I wasn't trying to speak for you, sorry if it came across like that. No doubt some people wouldn't like it, The US is a pretty modest culture over all regarding nudity, body functions and other intimate personal issues.

Quote from: Ulairi;970652I've never really seen a lot of "unisex" bathrooms. I have seen a lot of 'family' bathrooms or unisex 'private' bathrooms (that are basically a toilet and a urinal designed for one person at a time). I actually think the 'family' bathroom or the 'private' bathroom are the way to go.

There are a few around here but its not common by any stretch. I can't speak for the country in general but I imagine its the same way. I've never really understood was single occupant bathroom are broken up by gender anyway.

Quote from: S'mon;970675I'm pretty sure 99.5% of concern is over actual biological men-with-penises (real penises) in the ladies' changing room.

Terminology - When I said "trans-woman", I meant someone who identifies as a woman, but was assigned male at birth. That technically includes both people who have had genital reconstruction surgery and those who haven't. For example, there are plenty of people who identify as female, wear women's cloths, and have large breasts, but who have a penis. I think you'd refer to such as person as an actual biological man-with-a-penis, but I'm using the term "obvious trans-woman".

My point is that among those who are outraged that such a person might change in the women's room, they also wouldn't be comfortable with such a person changing in the men's room with their little boy. They might make more noise over such a person being in the women's room, but they aren't comfortable with them either way. As a cartoon illustration of the choices for a trans-woman goes,

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1088[/ATTACH]

This is the reality for those people - they have a significant chance of getting beaten up if they go into the men's room just for trying to change.

"Assigned male at birth"...can we use real language instead of Orwellian obfuscations?

Quote from: Dumarest;970700"Assigned male at birth"...can we use real language instead of Orwellian obfuscations?

In this context, I don't particularly care about the language used as long as it's clear what is being referred to. If you're offended by my language, then just suggest appropriate terminology and I'll translate.

I'm sympathetic to their plight but I also feel for the other women in the changing room that will upset, possibly even vulnerable being naked around a biological male that they don't know. That's why I think some private arrangement would be for the best.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;970375Over in Europe a number of public restrooms had nonspecific individual toilet rooms... not stalls, rooms... and everybody washed their hands in the same area.

Again...

Quote from: jhkim;970697[ATTACH=CONFIG]1088[/ATTACH]
This is the reality for those people - they have a significant chance of getting beaten up if they go into the men's room just for trying to change.

I am sure it has happened, and it does happen and will happen. But there is no guarantee that it will happen, or the frequency. If someone wears a KKK outfit or SS uniform, then it is also possible to be beaten up, but no guarantee that it will. What's problematic is legislating behavior based on a fear of the possibility of something happening, when the actual activity is already criminalized (strengthened if designated as a hate crime).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;970375Over in Europe a number of public restrooms had nonspecific individual toilet rooms... not stalls, rooms... and everybody washed their hands in the same area.  Oh, the horror.

That's not a bad set up. Like I mentioned earlier the possible road block would be the expense, but that might have to be sucked up.

QuoteAlso, communal showers are an abomination anyway.

They always seemed thoughtless when is schools. In a culture that fairly body shy and conservative. , take kids during the most emotional, insecure time in their lives with their bodies changing in different ways and rates and after getting the reved and agitated with allot of vigorous physical activity but them in room naked, sometimes unmonitored. I'm glad they've largely been phased out in schools.

Quote from: jhkim;970697My point is that among those who are outraged that such a person might change in the women's room, they also wouldn't be comfortable with such a person changing in the men's room with their little boy. They might make more noise over such a person being in the women's room, but they aren't comfortable with them either way. As a cartoon illustration of the choices for a trans-woman goes,

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1088[/ATTACH]

This is the reality for those people - they have a significant chance of getting beaten up if they go into the men's room just for trying to change.

Hmm, no, I can't see why someone with breasts and a penis is more dangerous to my boy than someone with just a penis.
If they get beat up in the men's changing room (which seems very unlikely in any changing room I've ever been in), it'd be by men outraged at their very existence, not at them posing a particular direct threat to male children.

I would favour a penis test - penis goes in men's changing, no penis goes in women's changing.*

I suspect the reality in the UK is that most non-op trans use local authority health club/pool changing rooms, with the 'village' changing I mentioned above.

*Conversely, for sports competition it's the physique that matters, so a chromosome test would be more appropriate for someone who wants to participate in women's sports like UFC or sprinting.  No test needed for men's sports.

Quote from: S'mon;970759I would favour a penis test - penis goes in men's changing, no penis goes in women's changing.*

*Conversely, for sports competition it's the physique that matters, so a chromosome test would be more appropriate for someone who wants to participate in women's sports like UFC or sprinting.  No test needed for men's sports.

Because if you do not, you get situations like this. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/7/andraya-yearwood-transgender-athlete-stars-on-fema/)

Quote from: jeff37923;970771Because if you do not, you get situations like this. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/7/andraya-yearwood-transgender-athlete-stars-on-fema/)

Thats wierd.  

There's a lot of Transgender women breaking down barriers.  It's almost like feminsists need male privilege to gain equality.

*ducks.  I'm not sure which side is going to scream the loudest.

Quote from: Headless;970787Thats wierd.  

There's a lot of Transgender women breaking down barriers.  It's almost like feminsists need male privilege to gain equality.

*ducks.  I'm not sure which side is going to scream the loudest.

No screaming from me. I'm to busy laughing my ass off.

Also the chick in that article could use a shave.

Quote from: Headless;970787Thats wierd.  

There's a lot of Transgender women breaking down barriers.  It's almost like feminsists need male privilege to gain equality.

*ducks.  I'm not sure which side is going to scream the loudest.

No screaming from me. I'm to busy laughing my ass off.

Also the chick in that article could use a shave.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;970790No screaming from me. I'm to busy laughing my ass off.

Also the chick in that article could use a shave.

Stay classy RPGsite.

Quote from: Rincewind1;970791Stay classy RPGsite.

I've never claimed to have class.

Quote from: Rincewind1;970791Stay classy RPGsite.

A Neo-Bolshevik shouldn't be lecturing people about class.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;970796A Neo-Bolshevik shouldn't be lecturing people about class.

Ba-dum-tish.  Thank you everybody, he'll be here all week.

I wonder when the first biologically male woman will take home an Olympic Medal.

Quote from: Rincewind1;970791Stay classy RPGsite.

Oh, the irony.....

On the extreme side, isn't it Thailand that made transgenders a legal third sex including designed bathrooms and facilities?

Quote from: jeff37923;970811Oh, the irony.....

Quote from: Doc Sammy;970796A Neo-Bolshevik shouldn't be lecturing people about class.

Oh, I'm like Runequest, baby.

Quote from: Nexus;970814On the extreme side, isn't it Thailand that made transgenders a legal third sex including designed bathrooms and facilities?

Apparently ladyboys is a thing in Thailand, I seem to remember Pundit telling us about them.  He seemed well informed.

Quote from: Headless;970837Apparently ladyboys is a thing in Thailand, I seem to remember Pundit telling us about them.  He seemed well informed.

They are definitely a thing in Thailand.

Quote from: Rincewind1;970822Oh, I'm like Runequest, baby.

All Ducked up and Trollpak'd, I see.

Quote from: Nexus;970838They are definitely a thing in Thailand.

Yeah trans people are all over the major cities and tourist towns, working the restaurants and massage joints. They get treated better in Thailand than elsewhere but its not exactly a completely tolerant utopia, especially outside the cities. Still, a much more accepted thing there than most places for sure.

Quote from: Ulairi;970652I actually think the 'family' bathroom or the 'private' bathroom are the way to go.

Is the family bathroom the same as the village bathroom?

Quote from: Rincewind1;970672I'm glad that the civic spirit of "fuck the minorities if they cost us votes" is well and alive in American society.

Democrats bizarrely failed to address the economy. The economy affects everyone, including the special snowflakes.

Instead of focusing on rising healthcare costs, Democrats have fixated on abortion rights.

At a time when our middle class is shrinking and the minorities in the middle class are suffering, and the working class (heavily minority) is suffering far more, the Democrat "brand" has become identity politics and focus on fringe issues.

Perhaps if the Democrats focused on universal issues (aka common issues that affect the most people), they might do better in elections AND benefit the minorities they claim to champion.

Of course, GOP isn't doing any better addressing actual issues. They have just done a better job with branding...and Trump got blessed by an Egyptian frog god.

And the branding loss is WEIRD. The Democrats has Hollywood and the NYC Ad Biz, but all their actor driven videos did more for Trump than Hillary.

Quote from: Rincewind1;970672Second term of Trump is exactly what you lot deserve.

The Democrats are working hard to make sure it happens!

Quote from: jhkim;9706661) Legally, whoever owns the bathroom should be the general decider for how bathrooms are used. I would prefer that it is not legislated on either the federal or state level.

I am unsure about that.

The South had issues with businesses refusing gas, food and motel rooms to customers based on skin color.

I am unsure if businesses should be allowed to refuse toilets to customers based on anything. I get saying "no shits for you" to non-customers, but if you allow paying customers to use your toilets then when Caitlyn buys your gas and slim jims, she gets to shit in your toilet.  

But I don't know where the line should be drawn against private business.

Quote from: Nexus;970693I've never really understood was single occupant bathroom are broken up by gender anyway.

Your poop has cooties.

Quote from: jeff37923;970771Because if you do not, you get situations like this. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/7/andraya-yearwood-transgender-athlete-stars-on-fema/)

Transgender athletes will be resetting female records in various states in the next few years.

I wonder how the trans trend will affect real girls in school sports and real women in professional sports.

Considering the importance of high school sports to many parents with daughters, I wonder if they are going to STFU as they have been told.

Quote from: CRKrueger;970798I wonder when the first biologically male woman will take home an Olympic Medal.

I bet next year.

If it doesn't happen at the Korean Winter Games, it will happen by the Tokyo Summer Games in 2020.

Quote from: Spinachcat;970877...

Instead of focusing on rising healthcare costs, Democrats have fixated on abortion rights.

At a time when our middle class is shrinking and the minorities in the middle class are suffering, and the working class (heavily minority) is suffering far more, the Democrat "brand" has become identity politics and focus on fringe issues.

Perhaps if the Democrats focused on universal issues (aka common issues that affect the most people), they might do better in elections AND benefit the minorities they claim to champion...
.

The American Left are the least successful Left in the Western Democracies for this reason I think.

Since the 60s, which they nostalgically misidentify as some kind of high point for the Left, their disdain for the white working class and paternalism towards minority underclass has rendered them remarkably ineffective politically.

Quote from: Voros;970884The American Left are the least successful Left in the Western Democracies for this reason I think.

Since the 60s, which they nostalgically misidentify as some kind of high point for the Left, their disdain for the white working class and paternalism towards minority underclass has rendered them remarkably ineffective politically.

Hmm.

1960-68 Democrat (8)
1968-76 Republican (8)
1976-1980 Democrat (4)
1980-1992 Republican (12)
1992-2000 Democrat (8)
2000-2008 Republican (8)
2008-2016 Democrat (8)
2016-2020 Republican (4)

60 years, 28 Democrat 32 Republican. A minority, but better than eg Labour in the UK I think.

I think you may be right though, 1932-1968 the Democrats had largely been the "natural party of government' since the Wall Street crash discredited the Republicans, identified with the working and lower-middle class. Now they are seen as the party of Diversity, the Elites, and the Media-Academia-Government complex. They can win when they can reach out to white lower middle class voters (Bill Clinton, Obama), but the Republicans are increasingly seen as the natural home of the white upper working & lower middle class, quite an achievement for a plutocratic party.

Quote from: jhkim;970718In this context, I don't particularly care about the language used as long as it's clear what is being referred to. If you're offended by my language, then just suggest appropriate terminology and I'll translate.

The relevant terms are "male" and "female".  These genders are assigned not at birth, but far before birth, early in the reproductive process.

There is an obvious solution to the problem of trans in bathrooms:  stop pretending transgenderism is more than a serious mental disease.  A male who makes himself a eunuch and crossdresses, remains male.  A female who takes hormones to grow muscle, hair, and lower her voice, remains female.

As this question has been raised for children, there is another obvious course of action: stop deceiving children into thinking transgenderism is real. Adults at least have the faculties to consider this question, children are malleable and utterly vulnerable.  Just as a child can be trained by a sick and malevolent adult to think sexual abuse is normal, they can be trained by an irresponsible adult to believe transgenderism is normal.  This is a dreadful disservice to do to them, because it is normal to be confused and uncertain about who one is as a child, but without surgical and pharmaceutical intervention, most of this will pass normally with the years... without making them eunuchs.  And, the outcomes are far better for the normal than those who call themselves transgendered.  Convincing a child to be transgendered is an extremely unhealthy outcome for them.

Quote from: Alathon;970907The relevant terms are "male" and "female".  These genders are assigned not at birth, but far before birth, early in the reproductive process.

There is an obvious solution to the problem of trans in bathrooms:  stop pretending transgenderism is more than a serious mental disease.  A male who makes himself a eunuch and crossdresses, remains male.  A female who takes hormones to grow muscle, hair, and lower her voice, remains female.

As this question has been raised for children, there is another obvious course of action: stop deceiving children into thinking transgenderism is real. Adults at least have the faculties to consider this question, children are malleable and utterly vulnerable.  Just as a child can be trained by a sick and malevolent adult to think sexual abuse is normal, they can be trained by an irresponsible adult to believe transgenderism is normal.  This is a dreadful disservice to do to them, because it is normal to be confused and uncertain about who one is as a child, but without surgical and pharmaceutical intervention, most of this will pass normally with the years... without making them eunuchs.  And, the outcomes are far better for the normal than those who call themselves transgendered.  Convincing a child to be transgendered is an extremely unhealthy outcome for them.

This.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;971002This.

Yes, I have to agree too - except it's sex that is assigned long before birth. Gender (male/female/neuter) is a grammatical construct, used as if it were essential to try to unmoor people from reality.

Talk about coming out of the woodworks.

Quote from: Headless;970837Apparently ladyboys is a thing in Thailand, I seem to remember Pundit telling us about them.  He seemed well informed.

Yeah, and they tend to die young of horrible diseases or commit suicide. No amount of legalization will ever make mutilating yourself into a caricature of woman to be used as a sex toy a healthy, normal activity.

The fantasy utopia where some time in his teens, a young, budding gay man can decide to get breast implants, hormone shots, and live as a healthy, well-adjusted, normal woman with full acceptance from anyone, with no dire consequences, never will happen, because it can's happen, because it's an attempt to unmake reality on a level as unrealistic as communism.

There will be a handful of men who sorta pull it off, and these extraordinary examples will always be held up as proof that somehow, millenia worth of evolved secondary sex characteristics and mating responses can be wished away, but biology wins in the end.

Quote from: Alathon;970907The relevant terms are "male" and "female".  These genders are assigned not at birth, but far before birth, early in the reproductive process.

There is an obvious solution to the problem of trans in bathrooms:  stop pretending transgenderism is more than a serious mental disease.  A male who makes himself a eunuch and crossdresses, remains male.  A female who takes hormones to grow muscle, hair, and lower her voice, remains female.

As this question has been raised for children, there is another obvious course of action: stop deceiving children into thinking transgenderism is real. Adults at least have the faculties to consider this question, children are malleable and utterly vulnerable.  Just as a child can be trained by a sick and malevolent adult to think sexual abuse is normal, they can be trained by an irresponsible adult to believe transgenderism is normal.  This is a dreadful disservice to do to them, because it is normal to be confused and uncertain about who one is as a child, but without surgical and pharmaceutical intervention, most of this will pass normally with the years... without making them eunuchs.  And, the outcomes are far better for the normal than those who call themselves transgendered.  Convincing a child to be transgendered is an extremely unhealthy outcome for them.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;971002This.

This ... squared.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;971059Yeah, and they tend to die young of horrible diseases or commit suicide. No amount of legalization will ever make mutilating yourself into a caricature of woman to be used as a sex toy a healthy, normal activity.

The fantasy utopia where some time in his teens, a young, budding gay man can decide to get breast implants, hormone shots, and live as a healthy, well-adjusted, normal woman with full acceptance from anyone, with no dire consequences, never will happen, because it can's happen, because it's an attempt to unmake reality on a level as unrealistic as communism.

There will be a handful of men who sorta pull it off, and these extraordinary examples will always be held up as proof that somehow, millenia worth of evolved secondary sex characteristics and mating responses can be wished away, but biology wins in the end.

Okay, how do you feel about Female to Male transgenders?

No one seems to talk about them much (like lesbians in discussion of homosexuality). I understand they're rarer but they do exist.,

Quote from: Alathon;970907The relevant terms are "male" and "female".  These genders are assigned not at birth, but far before birth, early in the reproductive process.

There is an obvious solution to the problem of trans in bathrooms:  stop pretending transgenderism is more than a serious mental disease.  A male who makes himself a eunuch and crossdresses, remains male.  A female who takes hormones to grow muscle, hair, and lower her voice, remains female.

As this question has been raised for children, there is another obvious course of action: stop deceiving children into thinking transgenderism is real. Adults at least have the faculties to consider this question, children are malleable and utterly vulnerable.  Just as a child can be trained by a sick and malevolent adult to think sexual abuse is normal, they can be trained by an irresponsible adult to believe transgenderism is normal.  This is a dreadful disservice to do to them, because it is normal to be confused and uncertain about who one is as a child, but without surgical and pharmaceutical intervention, most of this will pass normally with the years... without making them eunuchs.  And, the outcomes are far better for the normal than those who call themselves transgendered.  Convincing a child to be transgendered is an extremely unhealthy outcome for them.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;971002This.

Quote from: S'mon;971043Yes, I have to agree too - except it's sex that is assigned long before birth. Gender (male/female/neuter) is a grammatical construct, used as if it were essential to try to unmoor people from reality.

Quote from: DocJones;971062This ... squared.

I don't fully agree with this. I will say that of the 5 trans that I have spent time with and conversed, I would have to say that only one was near any sort of mental/emotional stability.

As far as applying to children, when the child becomes a legal adult and can afford the procedure (including psychiatric), then that person can do whatever they want to with their body.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;971059Yeah, and they tend to die young of horrible diseases or commit suicide. No amount of legalization will ever make mutilating yourself into a caricature of woman to be used as a sex toy a healthy, normal activity...

Uh huh, sure.

And gay people can never have loving healthy relationships either. Sure.

Never seen so many experts on human psychology and sexuality in one internet thread. We are truly lucky.

What a retarded shitshow this thread has become.

Quote from: S'mon;970889...
60 years, 28 Democrat 32 Republican. A minority, but better than eg Labour in the UK I think.

I think you may be right though, 1932-1968 the Democrats had largely been the "natural party of government' since the Wall Street crash discredited the Republicans, identified with the working and lower-middle class. Now they are seen as the party of Diversity, the Elites, and the Media-Academia-Government complex. They can win when they can reach out to white lower middle class voters (Bill Clinton, Obama), but the Republicans are increasingly seen as the natural home of the white upper working & lower middle class, quite an achievement for a plutocratic party.

You're using the Left and the Democractic party and synonyms here and there is some overlap for sure but not always. By other countries standards the Dems would be a strictly moderate or even centre right party.

Quote from: Rincewind1;971047Talk about coming out of the woodworks.

For many years people have been silenced with threats of ostracism or expulsion if they fail to comply with leftist taboos in this matter.  That time has ended.  There are still people who will attempt to enforce them, to lie and say that any frank discussion of transgenderism and the harm it does is somehow worse than silence, but their monopoly on a handful of media outlets and forums is insufficient to coerce compliance.  People like me, who once took the transgendered at their word and made little effort to examine the pseudoscientific bullshit they propped their cause up with, now examine it with a gimlet eye and find their claims wanting.  You better believe we're coming out of the woodwork now that the deception has failed.

Much of the strength and urgency transgendered position was a result of claims that if those children diagnosed with gender dysphoria were not transitioned they would kill themselves.  A threat of avoidable deaths, a powerful emotional and pragmatic lever.  This was always bullshit, because not only do four fifths of those age out of it, mature and become normal and healthy, but those who undergo surgical alteration and become transgendered have poor outcomes.  For a child to undergo gender reassignment is a grave injustice.  80% of the time, all that needs be done is nothing, and this majority is punished very cruelly by those who would attempt to cater to the minority who do not resolve their gender issues by the end of childhood..... but who, even if they transition, still get poor outcomes.  Yet the push is on to get children, particularly little boys, eunuched and drugged as young as possible.

Quote from: jeff37923;971070I don't fully agree with this. I will say that of the 5 trans that I have spent time with and conversed, I would have to say that only one was near any sort of mental/emotional stability.

As far as applying to children, when the child becomes a legal adult and can afford the procedure (including psychiatric), then that person can do whatever they want to with their body.

I agree with this.  If a person well and truly wishes to alter themselves in such a fashion..... okay.  Sure.  Whatever.  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4468954/Man-spends-25k-plastic-surgery-elf.html

This dude spent tens of thousands of dollars to make himself appear to be a fictional character.  Not even something real, like a male or female human. Whatevs.  The rub is if he were to insist that he has special Elf-rights that require others to act in accordance with this fantasy.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/canada-anti-transgender-speech-hate-crime-prison-fine-188329/

Such as in Canada, where the transgendered have successfully lobbied for the state to coerce its citizens into participating in their sick fantasy under threat of seizure of their assets and imprisonment.  Shit like this, incidentally, is why I no longer feel any reservations regarding open hostility to the transgendered.  They have made it clear that they will take what they want by force, coerce everyone around them into acting as props in their sick little identity plays.  They ought to be pitied for their illness, unhappiness, and the bad ends they usually come to.  I am hard pressed to feel pity for those who would wield the State as a cudgel to enforce their fantasies on others.

Wow, you're a piece of shit.

Quote from: Alathon;971083Yet the push is on to get children, particularly little boys, eunuched and drugged as young as possible.

Just wondering...

Is there a thing on the internet where the "Transgendered Agenda" and its being embraced by the Left is really just a way to make acceptable the elimination of men through hormone transitioning as children?  Perhaps tied in with vaccinations and Bovine Growth Hormone?

Quote from: Voros;971082You're using the Left and the Democractic party and synonyms here and there is some overlap for sure but not always. By other countries standards the Dems would be a strictly moderate or even centre right party.

By other country standards they are centre-Left on social issues other than gun control (if gun control is Left, typical Democrat position is right by other country standards), centre to centre right on economics. Depends what you count by Left & Right of course.

Quote from: Spinachcat;9706161989, how often are you finding politics in stuff you actually buy?

Not in stuff discussed online, but in stuff you have bought?

Well, I was going to buy D&D 5e. The system was really what I wanted -- a return to a girdless/miniature-less system. I grew to hate 3.0 ad 3.5 even more. 4e I didn't even buy. I had been waiting for 5e since 1999, essentially. But the transgender/homosexual thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I was ready to buy multiple sets for friends, kids, etc. (you can see my earlier threads on therpgsite), but I essentially voted with my wallet and did not buy it.

Quote from: Alathon;971083Such as in Canada, where the transgendered have successfully lobbied for the state to coerce its citizens into participating in their sick fantasy under threat of seizure of their assets and imprisonment.  Shit like this, incidentally, is why I no longer feel any reservations regarding open hostility to the transgendered.  They have made it clear that they will take what they want by force, coerce everyone around them into acting as props in their sick little identity plays.

I don't feel hostility to trans who don't act like that. Being mentally ill doesn't make you a bad person, being a totalitarian who tries to jail anyone who talks back makes you a bad person.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;971085Wow, you're a piece of shit.

No, you're a piece of shit.

Quote from: 1989;971097Well, I was going to buy D&D 5e. The system was really what I wanted -- a return to a girdless/miniature-less system. I grew to hate 3.0 ad 3.5 even more. 4e I didn't even buy. I had been waiting for 5e since 1999, essentially. But the transgender/homosexual thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I was ready to buy multiple sets for friends, kids, etc. (you can see my earlier threads on therpgsite), but I essentially voted with my wallet and did not buy it.

It's just the one paragraph:

"You don't need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen as androgynous or hermaphroditic, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in in Corellon's image. You could also play a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character's sexual orientation is for you to decide."

I think the bit about androgynous & hermaphrodite elves is a retcon. From what I recall some SJWs loved this, some said it was terrible because X Y Z. I dunno, it doesn't ruin the game for me and it doesn't have a strong moral prescription to it. It's not spread throughout the text.

OTOH apparently Corellon being an hermaphrodite entity was offensive to SJWS and got edited out later - http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?552156-What-happened-to-the-Hermaphrodites

I guess for me it's not particularly offensive, it's easy to ignore, and anyway I might well want to play "a female character who presents herself as a man" - for practicality, nothing to do with being transgender. They might as well have said "You can play a character of the opposite sex" - plenty of people would take offence at that, too!

Quote from: 1989;971100No, you're a piece of shit.

And there we have it. Rock bottom.

Quote from: jeff37923;971070As far as applying to children, when the child becomes a legal adult and can afford the procedure (including psychiatric), then that person can do whatever they want to with their body.

Agreed.

I am very concerned about non-medically required procedures being performed on children or teens.

When I was teaching special education, I was involved in two cases where the law got involved because of delusional parents who convinced their child (and the child's doctors) that the child suffered from non-existent disabilities.

After a decade in the school system, I don't believe in "parents know best" or "teachers know best" or "the state knows best".

Quote from: Alathon;971083Much of the strength and urgency transgendered position was a result of claims that if those children diagnosed with gender dysphoria were not transitioned they would kill themselves.  A threat of avoidable deaths, a powerful emotional and pragmatic lever.  This was always bullshit, because not only do four fifths of those age out of it, mature and become normal and healthy, but those who undergo surgical alteration and become transgendered have poor outcomes.  For a child to undergo gender reassignment is a grave injustice.  80% of the time, all that needs be done is nothing, and this majority is punished very cruelly by those who would attempt to cater to the minority who do not resolve their gender issues by the end of childhood..... but who, even if they transition, still get poor outcomes.  

80% is an extraordinary claim and those require extraordinary proof.

Links please.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;971085Wow, you're a piece of shit.

Let's see if he can back his claims.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971091Is there a thing on the internet where the "Transgendered Agenda" and its being embraced by the Left is really just a way to make acceptable the elimination of men through hormone transitioning as children?  Perhaps tied in with vaccinations and Bovine Growth Hormone?

I've seen that in Yahoo comment sections.

But right next to "Ron Paul 2012" and "U R Fag"

Quote from: S'mon;971099Being mentally ill doesn't make you a bad person, being a totalitarian who tries to jail anyone who talks back makes you a bad person.

Exactly.

It's very important to separate fetishists from people suffering a genetic disorder.

Quote from: Nexus;971108And there we have it. Rock bottom.

Nah. We have furry footed burrowers.

Quote from: 1989;971097Well, I was going to buy D&D 5e. The system was really what I wanted -- a return to a girdless/miniature-less system. I grew to hate 3.0 ad 3.5 even more. 4e I didn't even buy. I had been waiting for 5e since 1999, essentially. But the transgender/homosexual thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I was ready to buy multiple sets for friends, kids, etc. (you can see my earlier threads on therpgsite), but I essentially voted with my wallet and did not buy it.

I agree the paragraph is just politics. BUT why let one paragraph stand in the way of a game you want to play?

If you really like what 5e is offering in gameplay, why punish yourself? If you want to deny WotC the cash, then buy the books 2nd hand off eBay or just use the free downloads.

And have you played Castles & Crusades?

Quote from: Nexus;971108And there we have it. Rock bottom.

No, we've started at rock bottom, we're well into the shell by now.

Quote from: 1989;971097Well, I was going to buy D&D 5e. The system was really what I wanted -- a return to a girdless/miniature-less system. I grew to hate 3.0 ad 3.5 even more. 4e I didn't even buy. I had been waiting for 5e since 1999, essentially. But the transgender/homosexual thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I was ready to buy multiple sets for friends, kids, etc. (you can see my earlier threads on therpgsite), but I essentially voted with my wallet and did not buy it.

You couldn't be more of a special snowflake if you were made out of frozen water, you realise that I hope.

Quote from: Spinachcat;971112I am very concerned about non-medically required procedures being performed on children or teens.

When I was teaching special education, I was involved in two cases where the law got involved because of delusional parents who convinced their child (and the child's doctors) that the child suffered from non-existent disabilities.

After a decade in the school system, I don't believe in "parents know best" or "teachers know best" or "the state knows best".

It pains me to say it, "but think about the children" does indeed apply here.

**Breaks rule** There are some right royal cunts in this thread who seriously need to think hard and long about why other people's identity choices are so frightening and threatening to them.

I mean holy shit really people live and let live. You don't have to agree with people's lifestyles to accept their right to have them...unless their Nazis (or variant) in which case their pricks. **reinstates rule**

Quote from: HorusArisen;971120**Breaks rule** There are some right royal cunts in this thread who seriously need to think hard and long about why other people's identity choices are so frightening and threatening to them.

Too early for me to make a cogent argument, but this. Some of the stuff on this thread is just fucking hateful. I get that there is a loss of nuance on the left when social justice issues are brought up, and too often terms like bigot and racist are simply thrown around. But damn, some of the posts in the last few pages definitely qualify as homophobic and transphobic. Not to mention just plain hateful of people who are different from you.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;971122Too early for me to make a cogent argument, but this. Some of the stuff on this thread is just fucking hateful. I get that there is a loss of nuance on the left when social justice issues are brought up, and too often terms like bigot and racist are simply thrown around. But damn, some of the posts in the last few pages definitely qualify as homophobic and transphobic. Not to mention just plain hateful of people who are different from you.

I don't go with the left right crap, that politics and that's a poison of another stripe. But yeah the outright bigotry and hate in this thread is enough to cross my fingers for an extinction event.

Quote from: HorusArisen;971120I mean holy shit really people live and let live. You don't have to agree with people's lifestyles to accept their right to have them...unless their Nazis (or variant) in which case their pricks. **reinstates rule**

"Live and let live."

> sues your business out of existence
> has the government take away your kids because you didn't give them tranny injections
> files suit because the ladies who frequent the business don't like having a man use their bathroom
> throws you in jail for using the wrong pronoun
> teaches about fisting in public schools

The left doesn't believe in "live and let live;" it believes in total control. It believes in speech codes, censorship, safe spaces, no-platforming, and whatever means of forcing everyone to fall in line it can get away with. You, collectively speaking, have completely lost your ability to appeal to a libertarian ethos you don't believe in. We won't fall for it. When you say "live and let live," you're appealing to our values, not yours. It's something you only say when you're out of power. This tactic doesn't work any more. You've let the mask slip too many times.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;971122Too early for me to make a cogent argument, but this. Some of the stuff on this thread is just fucking hateful. I get that there is a loss of nuance on the left when social justice issues are brought up, and too often terms like bigot and racist are simply thrown around. But damn, some of the posts in the last few pages definitely qualify as homophobic and transphobic. Not to mention just plain hateful of people who are different from you.

As if the first one wasn't a poorly masked "I'm not buying that stuff because Zhe Gays touched it." Fuck's sake, you'll get more flack here nowadays for calling someone a -phobe (because how dare you stigmatise that man) than for writing how trannies are in a conspiracy to turn young boys into eunuchs.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;971128"Live and let live."

> sues your business out of existence
> has the government take away your kids because you didn't give them tranny injections
> files suit because the ladies who frequent the business don't like having a man use their bathroom
> throws you in jail for using the wrong pronoun
> teaches about fisting in public schools

The left doesn't believe in "live and let live;" it believes in total control. It believes in speech codes, censorship, safe spaces, no-platforming, and whatever means of forcing everyone to fall in line it can get away with. You, collectively speaking, have completely lost your ability to appeal to a libertarian ethos you don't believe in. We won't fall for it. When you say "live and let live," you're appealing to our values, not yours. It's something you only say when you're out of power. This tactic doesn't work any more. You've let the mask slip too many times.

Well I'm not a lefty for starters so the divisive politics shit doesn't wash with me and if your government is  going mental whichever hand they wank with that's not the LGBT community fault and doesn't preclude everyone's right to equality even yours...unless your a nazi.

Kids should obviously learn about fisting or any sexual act's existence from online porn, not at schools :rolleyes:. In the immortal words of modern American Shakespeare:  

And expect them not to know what a woman's clitoris is
Of course they gonna know what intercourse is
By the time they hit fourth grade
They got the Discovery Channel don't they?

Quote from: Rincewind1;971129As if the first one wasn't a poorly masked "I'm not buying that stuff because Zhe Gays touched it." Fuck's sake, you'll get more flack here nowadays for calling someone a -phobe (because how dare you stigmatise that man) than for writing how trannies are in a conspiracy to turn young boys into eunuchs.

Personally I stopped playing 5e because Mythras is better. Can I send 1989 a copy of Blue Rose? He might have a heart attack.

Quote from: Rincewind1;971133Kids should obviously learn about fisting from online porn, not at schools :rolleyes:.

Quick question but has America gone as nuts as FearfulPirate suggests?

Because that's some mental claims that people should probably do something about.

Quote from: HorusArisen;971134Personally I stopped playing 5e because Mythras is better. Can I send 1989 a copy of Blue Rose? He might have a heart attack.

RuneQuest 6e is indeed a great RPG, undeserving to be mentioned in this excuse of a thread.

Quote from: Rincewind1;971136RuneQuest 6e is indeed a great RPG, undeserving to be mentioned in this excuse of a thread.

That is so true.

Quote from: Alathon;971083For many years people have been silenced with threats of ostracism or expulsion if they fail to comply with leftist taboos in this matter.  That time has ended.  There are still people who will attempt to enforce them, to lie and say that any frank discussion of transgenderism and the harm it does is somehow worse than silence, but their monopoly on a handful of media outlets and forums is insufficient to coerce compliance.  People like me, who once took the transgendered at their word and made little effort to examine the pseudoscientific bullshit they propped their cause up with, now examine it with a gimlet eye and find their claims wanting.  You better believe we're coming out of the woodwork now that the deception has failed.

I'm sorry, are we still discussing transgendered people or you're showing us the opening for your new Unseen Armies campaign?

Quote from: HorusArisen;971135Quick question but has America gone as nuts as FearsomePirate suggests?

Rincewind1 lives in a coffeeshop somewhere in Poland where he sends his diatribes across the internet when not telling anyone who looks his way that he is writing a novel. As such, his envy of the American people while hating the United States is well known here, but he has little actual knowledge of the USA that is factual.

Oh, and RuneQuest sucks. :D

Quote from: jeff37923;971140Rincewind1 lives in a coffeeshop somewhere in Poland where he sends his diatribes across the internet when not telling anyone who looks his way that he is writing a novel. As such, his envy of the American people while hating the United States is well known here, but he has little actual knowledge of the USA that is factual.

So is that a yes or just no more than usual?

Quote from: HorusArisen;971141So is that a yes or just no more than usual?

It is a maybe.

Quote from: HorusArisen;971135Quick question but has America gone as nuts as FearfulPirate suggests?

   Parts of it. It's a big country, and a lot of these are local items, many coming out of the coastal enclaves of leftism. I think the item about losing parental rights may actually be from Canada, but I have heard about incidents matching all these descriptions. Whether the full context lives up to the picture he's painting is debatable, but such things have happened.

Quote from: HorusArisen;971120**Breaks rule** There are some right royal cunts in this thread who seriously need to think hard and long about why other people's identity choices are so frightening and threatening to them.

I mean holy shit really people live and let live. You don't have to agree with people's lifestyles to accept their right to have them...unless their Nazis (or variant) in which case their pricks. **reinstates rule**

Here goes...

I have an opinion on the Transgender issue (surprise!), but I am not a professional so its a layman's observation. I think its a disorder, but I can't speak to its exact nature. Like any disorder having it does not make you a bad person and does not remove your human rights. And like some disorders society should make some accommodation for your needs. OTOH, you live may have to make some accommodations for this around you due to you disorder.  Its a compromise that most people have to make.

Personally, I don't care. People can think whatever they, do what they want to their own bodies until it crosses with my or someone else's life. At that point, something has to be worked out based on that situation. Being in the majority shouldn't mean your rights are automatically cast aside or automatically win out.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;971128> teaches about fisting in public schools

Wait, what? cite please?

Quote from: jeff37923;971142It is a maybe.

"Spreading fear, doubt and uncertainty" again? :rolleyes:

Quote from: Spinachcat;971112It's very important to separate fetishists from people suffering a genetic disorder.

Well you could be a harmless fetishist or have a genuine genetic disorder & be an evil totalitarian.  The only trans I've GM'd for IRL  I think was a harmless fetishist - he said at the end of the mini-campaign "I'll always remember my Labyrinth Lord!" :D

Quote from: Nexus;971150"Spreading fear, doubt and uncertainty" again? :rolleyes:

Nah, I'm sure you are full of shit.

America in general? It's a maybe. We got a lot of crazed liberals driving political agendas that wouldn't know compromise (or reality) if it jumped up and bit them on the ass. These same people have pushed an agenda to such extremes that the shooting of an elected official from the opposite party is cheered on by the liberal media and where the sitting president has had to be bothered by a false accusation for the past 10 months (although that may have bitten the liberal democrats in the ass as the witch hunt of an investigation starts to investigate one of its own).

You cannot say that we should "live and let live" as the narrative when for the past eight years the left's political opponents have been lambasted in the media and are now engaged in some acrimonious push back of that "accepted" narrative.

So yes Petunia, maybe.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;971122...and too often terms like bigot and racist are simply thrown around...

LOL! :D Surely not, Brendan. Surely not.

Quote from: Nexus;971148Here goes...

I have an opinion on the Transgender issue (surprise!), but I am not a professional so its a layman's observation. I think its a disorder, but I can't speak to its exact nature. Like any disorder having it does not make you a bad person and does not remove your human rights. And like some disorders society should make some accommodation for your needs.

Yes, but from a Utilitarian perspective (which is my normal approach) you have to consider whether that accommodation may harm the one being accommodated, as well as others, and offset that against happiness gained. For instance, it's good that gender reassignment surgery seems to be becoming less common because it's increasingly recognised that it's often harmful to the one subject to it, or at least risks harm. Likewise the utilitarian balance for toilets may be different from changing rooms. The important thing is not to grant anyone absolute rights that always trump the interests of other people no matter how lopsided the balance.

Quote from: S'mon;971155LOL! :D Surely not, Brendan. Surely not.

Want to delve into some of your racial and genetic theories again?

I definitely think the terms get bandied about and the meaning waters down when that happens. But like I've said from early on, there are plenty of people who are using that as cover to wedge in racist ideology. And the word does fit some people.

Quote from: jeff37923;971140Rincewind1 lives in a coffeeshop somewhere in Poland where he sends his diatribes across the internet when not telling anyone who looks his way that he is writing a novel. As such, his envy of the American people while hating the United States is well known here, but he has little actual knowledge of the USA that is factual.

Oh, and RuneQuest sucks. :D

You've masturbated while you wrote that, hadn't  you, you naughty, naughty boy.

Quote from: Rincewind1;971165You've masturbated while you wrote that, hadn't  you, you naughty, naughty boy.

And you masturbate to pictures of Lenin and Trotsky, so I wouldn't judge if I were you.

As for me, I'm a proud Bernie Bro/Tammany Hall Union Democrat who loves anime and hates Marvel/DC capeshit. I believe both the Fascist Alt-Right and the Communist SJW's are a dire threat to American values and both sides must be stopped. The election of Donald Trump was a disaster for this country on so many levels.

I'm a foul-mouthed blue-collar Irish-American redneck from Dante, Virginia and I don't take no bullshit whether it be from Alt-Righters or SJW Commies. But I do believe in free speech, so I say you can spout all the Neo-Bolshevik rhetoric you want, and I can mock you and call you out on it all I want.

I drink straight Jameson and watch Sailor Moon, and I'm proud of my working-class Irish and Scots-Irish roots.

[video=youtube;jxKp7F6bqn8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxKp7F6bqn8[/youtube]

Quote from: Voros;971081What a retarded shitshow this thread has become.

Yes it has.