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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: ArrozConLeche on January 24, 2017, 01:19:34 PM

Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: ArrozConLeche on January 24, 2017, 01:19:34 PM
And hilarity ensues...

http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/20941/how-does-your-game-fight-fascism


(http://i.imgur.com/x2r2GdS.jpg)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on January 24, 2017, 01:42:29 PM
These dumbasses wouldn't know 'fascism' if Benito put on his best jack-boots and curb-stomped their face into a dictionary between 'failure' and 'fuckwit'.  It is a real word with real meaning, and it is not interchangeable with "Militant", "Conservative", "Mean", "Patriotic", or "Dad".  

It speaks volumes about these people, and how little experience in reality with normal people they have.  Normal people don't pick up a Warhammer 40k book and say "NON WHITES ARE FUCKING XENOS AND MUST BE PURGED FROM THE FATHERLAND!"  Normal people don't see a titty-girl in a chainmail bikini and go "LOL I AM GONNA DO SOME RAPE!"  Normal people don't see a diverse mix of ethnicities and genders in a Player's Handbook and go "WOW HOLY SHIT I NEVER KNEW WOMEN AND THE BLACKS WERE PEOPLE LIKE ME!"    No, the only people who pick up pretendy-time books and games and get that much influence?  Are unhinged fucking loons that belonged in the asylum already, and it was only a matter of time before they cracked.

Someone once told me, "The shadiest people are always the most paranoid, because they judge the world by their own moral condition."  I think it applies to these deranged neckbeards.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on January 24, 2017, 02:00:13 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;942378
And hilarity ensues...

http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/20941/how-does-your-game-fight-fascism


(http://i.imgur.com/x2r2GdS.jpg)


I posted this sentiment there as well but I think the idea that violence in RPGs somehow translates into real world violence (or fascist thinking) just doesn't hold up. Violence in RPGs is cathartic. If anything, it is a release valve that makes people less violent in real life. But even then, I think the impact is pretty small. I have no issue with people putting messages or ideas into their games if they want to, but I don't think it has the impact they believe it does, and I think they'd probably be better served trying to change the world more directly if that is their goal. When I pick up a rulebook, I am not worried about its political message or the subtext of the mechanics and setting. I am just worried about whether I enjoy it at the table and whether the content has emotional impact.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on January 24, 2017, 02:05:37 PM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;942384
I posted this sentiment there as well but I think the idea that violence in RPGs somehow translates into real world violence (or fascist thinking) just doesn't hold up. Violence in RPGs is cathartic. If anything, it is a release valve that makes people less violent in real life. But even then, I think the impact is pretty small. I have no issue with people putting messages or ideas into their games if they want to, but I don't think it has the impact they believe it does, and I think they'd probably be better served trying to change the world more directly if that is their goal. When I pick up a rulebook, I am not worried about its political message or the subtext of the mechanics and setting. I am just worried about whether I enjoy it at the table and whether the content has emotional impact.

My mom and dad talk a lot of shit to each other, out of love.  I got to see more of it when I was an older teenager.  

My mother once said that she thought violent shows and games made people violent.  My dad looked at her and said "Well now I know it's those gossip shows that made you such a nosy bitch."

She threw a pillow at him.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on January 24, 2017, 02:09:57 PM
I read through the thread and I kept saying in my head "Who the fuck are these people? and "Can there be that many stupid people out there to take the word 'fascist' and make it mean something it isn't?"

They are using it in such a broad scope, it loses its real meaning.

Most rpgs are combat orientated. Duh. Does that make them fascist? No, of course not. Racial limits for non-human races? No, it's a game balancing mechanic you fuckwits.

But THIS takes the fucking cake:

"My sense of Gygax is that he probably was a little bit fascist - or romantic of the colonialist era, if one prefers. Probably not so much politically, but emotionally; his work has a consistent sense of yearning for heroic adventure, after all, the kind that only exists in fiction, and it seems that he never questioned the basic proposition. The picaresque stylings in some of his stuff come closest (the rogue novel as a literary genre is pretty ironic, after all), but the way I read it, he enjoyed the cynical machismo of it more than any antiestablishmentarianism. For him, the vivacious, independent adventurer was the establishment he celebrated, and Alignment (an authoritative top-down morality) was the moral underpinning

(emphasis mine)

I'm trying to imagine Gary in an SS uniform, complete with jackboots.

Nah. He'd be more of the US Army SSgt tank commander type.

Plus, big words don't necessarily make you look smart on the internet. It just makes you look like an arrogant prick.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on January 24, 2017, 02:14:45 PM
Quote from: crüesader;942387
my mom and dad talk a lot of shit to each other, out of love.  I got to see more of it when i was an older teenager.  

My mother once said that she thought violent shows and games made people violent.  My dad looked at her and said "well now i know it's those gossip shows that made you such a nosy bitch."

she threw a pillow at him.

[attach=config]659[/attach]

ftw!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 24, 2017, 02:19:57 PM
How do you fight Fascism?
You line all the Fascists up against the wall for the firing squads, and throw the bodies in an oven (mass graves are so passe).

I mean, this is pretty obvious, right?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on January 24, 2017, 02:26:19 PM
I'm also a little bit temped to log into their cute little forum and blow their world view out of the fucking water.

IT is a public forum, so they should be up to criticism...right?

Ha! Who the fuck am I kidding?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on January 24, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: blackstone;942392
I'm also a little bit temped to log into their cute little forum and blow their world view out of the fucking water.

IT is a public forum, so they should be up to criticism...right?

Ha! Who the fuck am I kidding?


I've posted there plenty, and I've found they handle criticism pretty well at that place. I think the mods even encourage wide points of view. There is definitely a predominant point of view, but I doubt they'll boot you out for disagreeing with the OP.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 24, 2017, 03:31:18 PM
Well, there goes my plans for "Hitler was Right, an RPG for the whole family."
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 24, 2017, 03:35:36 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;942390
How do you fight Fascism?
You line all the Fascists up against the wall for the firing squads, and throw the bodies in an oven (mass graves are so passe).

I mean, this is pretty obvious, right?

Fuck, it would be funny if I didn't think we really are headed down that road again.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: jeff37923 on January 24, 2017, 04:04:38 PM
Whoever came up with that was the very definition of coffeeshop pseudointellectual.

The only thing I've read this week that comes close to that level of disconnection from reality is the statement, "Having Donald Trump as President normalizes sexual assault".
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 24, 2017, 04:13:55 PM
I fight facism in my RPGs by disallowing them to be altered by moral busybodies, SJW thought-police, and any idiot who cant distinguish between fantasy and reality.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 24, 2017, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;942382
These dumbasses wouldn't know 'fascism' if Benito put on his best jack-boots and curb-stomped their face into a dictionary between 'failure' and 'fuckwit'.  It is a real word with real meaning, and it is not interchangeable with "Militant", "Conservative", "Mean", "Patriotic", or "Dad".  


   I suspect that they're using the Old School Progressive definition of fascism--"any political opinion to the right of 'Uncle Joe.'" ;)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on January 24, 2017, 07:00:03 PM
Does giving players XP for pushing back against SJW morons count as fighting fascism?

1XP per word! 1XP bonus per view! 10XP per retweet! 'Cuz there's some easy level ups there.

Trump may be turn out to be "da worst prez evah", but the next 4 years will be overflowing with the lulz.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on January 24, 2017, 07:25:36 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;942425
I suspect that they're using the Old School Progressive definition of fascism--"any political opinion to the right of 'Uncle Joe.'" ;)

What has me a bit disturbed by that is actually that these degenerates believe it is acceptable to walk up and beat anyone they see as 'fascist'.  That term will likely be as flexible as 'racism' or 'harassment' in a few months.

Considering that the feral left spent much of its time mocking these very same people for having guns, I do not think this will last very long.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on January 25, 2017, 12:39:42 AM
Well, this is going to be interesting, to see how the Storygamers try to weasel their way out of this one...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on January 25, 2017, 07:08:09 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;942475
Well, this is going to be interesting, to see how the Storygamers try to weasel their way out of this one...

NEWS FLASH! OP back-peddled the fuck out of his argument. Guess he might have realized...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]661[/ATTACH]
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: DocJones on January 25, 2017, 12:05:48 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;942382
These dumbasses wouldn't know 'fascism' if Benito put on his best jack-boots and curb-stomped their face into a dictionary between 'failure' and 'fuckwit'.  It is a real word with real meaning, and it is not interchangeable with "Militant", "Conservative", "Mean", "Patriotic", or "Dad".  


I'm not sure the word ever had anything but a very slippery meaning.  
See: What is Fascism? (http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: jhkim on January 25, 2017, 12:16:12 PM
Quote from: blackstone;942496
NEWS FLASH! OP back-peddled the fuck out of his argument. Guess he might have realized...
Just out of curiousity - are you referring to Rafu's apology in response to my post there? Rafu is the poster first quoted in this thread, but he's not the OP in the Story Games thread.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: thedungeondelver on January 25, 2017, 12:17:45 PM
Quote from: blackstone;942496
NEWS FLASH! OP back-peddled the fuck out of his argument. Guess he might have realized...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]661[/ATTACH]

That's a pity; I was going send a link Elise, Ernie, Luke, Alex and Heidi to the thread and let them contact the OP directly about whether or not their father was a fascist.

Oh well, there's always next time.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on January 25, 2017, 04:12:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim;942536
Just out of curiousity - are you referring to Rafu's apology in response to my post there? Rafu is the poster first quoted in this thread, but he's not the OP in the Story Games thread.


Ah crap. You're right.

OK...FLAME AWAY!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 25, 2017, 05:40:21 PM
Quote from: thedungeondelver;942537
That's a pity; I was going send a link Elise, Ernie, Luke, Alex and Heidi to the thread and let them contact the OP directly about whether or not their father was a fascist.

Oh well, there's always next time.
The OP did not apologize.  Someone else did.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on January 25, 2017, 06:25:32 PM
I bet everyone of the fuckers decrying  facism in rpgs were cheering on  the uniformed and masked thugs marching and smashing windows during the inauguration.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Warboss Squee on January 25, 2017, 07:03:18 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;942590
I bet everyone of the fuckers decrying  facism in rpgs were cheering on  the uniformed and masked thugs marching and smashing windows during the inauguration.

Of course!

Because it's only bad when the other guy does it.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on January 25, 2017, 07:41:41 PM
Here's my humble rebuttal (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2017/01/when-they-think-you-arent-watching.html) to their bullshit.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on January 25, 2017, 07:42:34 PM
Also, let's keep this thread on topic please. No veering into larger discussions of politics outside the game hobby.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Warboss Squee on January 25, 2017, 08:48:58 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;942599
Here's my humble rebuttal (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2017/01/when-they-think-you-arent-watching.html) to their bullshit.

I'd call you many things, but humble wouldn't be one of them. That said, I agree whole heartedly with you on this one.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on January 25, 2017, 09:15:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;942599
Here's my humble rebuttal (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2017/01/when-they-think-you-arent-watching.html) to their bullshit.

I could even taste the humble!

I don't understand how this anti-heroic thing even works with any RPG. I know gamers in LA who play narrative RPGs and they absolutely play heroic characters doing kill-the-orc for whatever reason, but using their wank ass narrative mechanics. I used to know some gamers who were into "misery tourism" stuff, and even they were into heroic PCs when they did their "doomed teens in Warsaw" games.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on January 25, 2017, 09:17:33 PM
I think I'm missing something and I require some information and opinions here- but what is it with every time I see something stupid, the term 'storygamers' comes up?  What is it with the storygamers?  I've never played one or encountered anyone playing one, but quite honestly every one of these batshit opinions comes from there.  What is it with those games that cultivates this mindset?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 25, 2017, 09:29:39 PM
So "yearning for adventure" is fascist?

Sweet Crom's hairy nutsack.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 25, 2017, 09:30:42 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;942605
I could even taste the humble!

I don't understand how this anti-heroic thing even works with any RPG. I know gamers in LA who play narrative RPGs and they absolutely play heroic characters doing kill-the-orc for whatever reason, but using their wank ass narrative mechanics. I used to know some gamers who were into "misery tourism" stuff, and even they were into heroic PCs when they did their "doomed teens in Warsaw" games.

It works if you use "anti-hero" correctly, which includes Flashman, Han Solo, the 3 Musketeers, Conan...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Doom on January 26, 2017, 12:00:00 AM
Well, my game doesn't fight fascism, as yet.

Although, Baron Von Trumpstein did arrest envoys from the Ophidian Empire, under charges of spreading "Snake news."
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on January 26, 2017, 01:00:44 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;942605
I could even taste the humble!

I don't understand how this anti-heroic thing even works with any RPG. I know gamers in LA who play narrative RPGs and they absolutely play heroic characters doing kill-the-orc for whatever reason, but using their wank ass narrative mechanics. I used to know some gamers who were into "misery tourism" stuff, and even they were into heroic PCs when they did their "doomed teens in Warsaw" games.

Then they were playing that game wrong. The point of grey ranks was obviously to show that Polish heroism was futile and stupid, and that heroism in general is just a flawed stupid thing that imperialists made up. Clearly, those Polish youth were either really jew-hating monsters (which is a TERRIBLE thing to be...if you're right-wing. Left wingers of course SHOULD hate Jews, because it Helps Islamism and that's a good thing), or idiots, or cowards, and anyone smart should have waited for the Soviets to come and gloriously liberate them for the sake of International Communism.

That's the kind of shit these absolute motherfuckers believe. It is their goal to undermine EVERYTHING that is the least bit righteous or noble in our entire civilization.  Because their very souls have been poisoned to the core.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on January 26, 2017, 01:02:16 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942608
So "yearning for adventure" is fascist?

Sweet Crom's hairy nutsack.


Yup. Did Uncle Gary KNOW he was a 'fascist'?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on January 26, 2017, 08:24:33 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;942600
Also, let's keep this thread on topic please. No veering into larger discussions of politics outside the game hobby.

But it is about politics ouitside gaming the OP probably cares nothing about gaming and is just another far left wing proselytiser looking for another venue for  his drivel.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 26, 2017, 01:14:41 PM
Some people make bullshit theories how Mountain Dew was responsible for creation of D&D (wink wink), some people make theories that storygaming are part of a plot to destroy Western culture, some people make theories that D&D is a font for fascism. Same bullshit worth a chuckle over beer.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: David Johansen on January 26, 2017, 02:15:32 PM
In answer to the thread title: my orcs heraldric sign is a bundle of sticks.

Anyhow, in Tolkien the orcs were clearly symbolic of fascists.

What the original post is really about is shifting the narrative and controlling the language.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on January 26, 2017, 02:54:53 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;942689
In answer to the thread title: my orcs heraldric sign is a bundle of sticks.

Anyhow, in Tolkien the orcs were clearly symbolic of fascists.

What the original post is really about is shifting the narrative and controlling the language.

Yes, by shifting RPGs into something beyond their original intent: RPGs are to escape and pass the time.

This whole narrative about "combating fascism through art", and lumping RPGs into that is a load of fetid dingo's kidneys.

You know what combats fascism? Ask a WWII veteran. He'll tell you.

And what these fatbeards THINK they call fascism today is NOWHERE near what was in Europe in the 30s and 40s. Not even remotely close, because there is no fascism today.

Except maybe in parts of the Middle East under Sharia Law. ZING! Yep, I went there. (If it walks like a duck...)

They want to combat fascism? REAL fascism? Go to where ISIS is crucifying Christians and burning them on crosses and make them stop. OR when people are murdered for not believing in the right god, because "Allah is great". Convert or die.

That's fascism.

But through a role-playing (I'm sorry: "storytelling" whatever...) game?

You have got to be fucking kidding me:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]664[/ATTACH]

(Picture a copy of Blue Rose under his arm and he's wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt and it would be accurate.)

These fuckwits on that blog have no clue what they're talking about.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 26, 2017, 03:49:46 PM
RPG's are fascist? Color me surprised. I've been playing RPG's for ten years now, and I never got the memo.

It's idiots like these who make me ashamed to be a leftist these days. RPG's are just a means of entertainment and nothing more, I don't think Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson were even considering fascism or any other political agenda or ideology when they invented role-playing games (and I'll double-check with Gronan just to make sure!).

These SJW hipster types are like Don Quixote fighting the windmill. Political Correctness has reached such levels of insanity that its adherents are now fighting against imaginary oppression and non-existent forms of fascism.

And in all honesty, those duck-faced dyed hair Liberal Arts major SJW hipster chicks are the worst. They disgust me to no end and remind me of why I'm bisexual every fucking day. But that's another story for another day.

First they went after video games (though those GamerGate douchebags didn't help matters, they just added gasoline on a tire fire so to speak), and now they're going after RPG's. Fuck them.

How come these SJW's whine about fascism but not Marxism? Both ideologies are abhorrent, tyrannical, and oppressive. I'm all about fighting fascism, but we should also fight communism (both Marxism and Anarchism) with equal vigilance.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: jhkim on January 26, 2017, 03:58:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;942599
Here's my humble rebuttal (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2017/01/when-they-think-you-arent-watching.html) to their bullshit.
I've already posted about my disagreement with Rafu who was quoted.

On the other hand, your rebuttal selectively pulls out quotes from different people and then presents all of them as what story gamers as a whole believe. That's just like selecting out quotes from 5 Stone Games on blacks' IQ or Snowman0147 on "fuck world peace", and presenting them as what traditional gamers all believe.

It's a blatant crock. Story gamers aren't some giant conspiracy. They are different people who have different views.


Quote from: Crüesader;942606
I think I'm missing something and I require some information and opinions here- but what is it with every time I see something stupid, the term 'storygamers' comes up?  What is it with the storygamers?  I've never played one or encountered anyone playing one, but quite honestly every one of these batshit opinions comes from there.  What is it with those games that cultivates this mindset?
Story gamers tend to lean left of center. As for why they do - I would note that's also true of a lot of indie or alternative scenes. Also, it is still an Internet-centric community, that started in the early 2000s. Many of these tend to lean liberal.

As for the games themselves... Some of the games tend towards more cooperative and less competitive. Also, many contrast with the wargaming roots of RPGs - so you get games with less combat focus. Both of these also correlate to left-leaning politics.

Given your extreme opinions on liberals, I think that probably covers how you see more batshit. (Seriously, though - you don't find any batshit stuff in the D&D edition wars?)

All of those are just tendencies, though, not definitional. I think there's plenty of potential for non-wargamey and cooperative, and yet still conservative games.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 26, 2017, 05:03:04 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942707
now fighting against imaginary oppression and non-existent forms of fascism.
They can't fight against real oppression and existent forms of Fascism.  To do so first they'd to have to find it, and second, they'd have to fight it in some other form than tweeting or blogging from a Starbucks.

So instead we get attempts at social control masquerading as social justice.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 26, 2017, 05:22:31 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;942713
They can't fight against real oppression and existent forms of Fascism.  To do so first they'd to have to find it, and second, they'd have to fight it in some other form than tweeting or blogging from a Starbucks.

So instead we get attempts at social control masquerading as social justice.

This times a thousand. Fascism as a viable widespread ideology has been dead since 1945. As much as I hate Trump with a burning passion, he's not actually a fascist. Trump may be a loud mouthed moron but Mussolini he is not.

Communism seemed to have died in 1991 aside from barely functioning holdouts like North Korea and Cuba (China is capitalist authoritarianism masquerading as Maoism for propaganda purposes), but Millennial hipsters and SJW's seem hell-bent on reviving Marxism and Anarcho-Communism alike as political ideologies to consider here in America (despite how badly Communism failed and how oppressive it was in places such as the Soviet Union, Maoist China, and East Germany).

I mean, I can't fault them for hating capitalism, since Reagan and all of his successors have introduced an odious and dysfunctional form of plutocratic hyper-capitalism that has become the norm in this country despite driving it into the ground. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I support socialism, but not communism. Socialism is supposed to act as the lap-belt for capitalism to prevent plutocracy and corporatism. Going full-on communist is not going to help, it's only going to make things more oppressive. A left boot on your neck is just as terrible as a right one.

As bad as Trump and Pence are, they cannot compare to the horrors committed by Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, the Kim family, Che Guevara, Pol Pot, and the like. Worst part is that these Antifa motherfuckers openly idolize the assholes I just mentioned and beat people up for having the wrong opinion in their eyes. But it's okay because "we're fighting fascism!"

No, you're not.

People like Audie Murphy and Darrell "Shifty" Powers were fighting fascism and were heroes because of it. These Antifa/Black Bloc/SJW types are brutalizing people and things they don't like and that makes them thugs and oppressors, not heroes.

BUT to get back on topic, the SJW hipsters on the Far Left will stop at nothing when it comes to being the PC Police/Culture Police.  For example, my own brother has fallen for this in real life. Even though he's a cis straight white male with no real problems, he's openly identifying as an "Anarcho-Communist" unironically, getting actively involved in Antifa and Black Bloc groups, and even talking about how we should "destroy capitalism in its entirety" and how we should "abolish the White Race" (despite the fact he is white, he's parroting rhetoric from the New Black Panthers and the Huey P. Newton Gun Club, both of which are classified as active hate groups by both the FBI and the Southern Poverty Law Center). He often calls me a fascist Trump supporter (even though I've made my dislike of Trump abundantly clear both online and in real life) and that because I'm white and a polytheistic pagan, I'm automatically a Neo-Nazi (even though most Nazi pagans worship Odin and Thor, whereas I follow Jupiter and Mercury).

Worst part is he came to this horrid ideology on his own, he wasn't even trying to impress some duck-faced pink haired hipster chick either. And considering I'm both legally and medically considered disabled (mild autism, severe bipolar, and a few physical deficiencies as well) and LGBT (bisexual male), I'm actually lower on the privilege ladder than he is. I worry about my brother. Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand....

First they went after video games, and now they're calling RPG's "fascist" and Anime "misogynist" while clinging onto god-awful Marvel and DC capeshit. I'm so sick of it and I'm done with playing nice while these commie hipsters hijack liberalism. I'm a feminist and a liberal, but I refuse to be attacked as a fascist just because I like anime and hate identity politics. The Pope may be French, but Jesus was English! IT'S ON!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on January 26, 2017, 06:26:03 PM
Quote from: jhkim;942708
Given your extreme opinions on liberals, I think that probably covers how you see more batshit. (Seriously, though - you don't find any batshit stuff in the D&D edition wars?)

The overwhelming majority of people I've played D&D with were left-leaning, at least on several issues.  Perhaps not openly "I am a liberal", but my greatest DM was gay.  Shockingly enough, I had very few differences of opinion with most of them.  But, of course when I was more dedicated to D&D the leftist culture was more "liberty", and far less "outrage brigade".  

And yes, the edition wars are insane. And fantasy games draw in a lot of left-leaning people, and most are fine.  However, given that everything on the right side of Uncle Joe is now a 'fascist' and there seems to be some belief that they can be assaulted, I'm far more reluctant to go into fantasy gaming again.

People say that the things I'm interested in draw in fascists... but so far I've only encountered reasonable adults that have their shit together.

As far as what story games are, I still don't know how they work.  I mean, I thought all RPG's were focused on a fun story and were already cooperative.  Most RPG's I've played tend to have a dead party if it isn't cooperative.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 26, 2017, 06:41:04 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;942728
The overwhelming majority of people I've played D&D with were left-leaning, at least on several issues.  Perhaps not openly "I am a liberal", but my greatest DM was gay.  Shockingly enough, I had very few differences of opinion with most of them.  But, of course when I was more dedicated to D&D the leftist culture was more "liberty", and far less "outrage brigade".  

And yes, the edition wars are insane. And fantasy games draw in a lot of left-leaning people, and most are fine.  However, given that everything on the right side of Uncle Joe is now a 'fascist' and there seems to be some belief that they can be assaulted, I'm far more reluctant to go into fantasy gaming again.

People say that the things I'm interested in draw in fascists... but so far I've only encountered reasonable adults that have their shit together.

As far as what story games are, I still don't know how they work.  I mean, I thought all RPG's were focused on a fun story and were already cooperative.  Most RPG's I've played tend to have a dead party if it isn't cooperative.

This. Edition wars are bullshit and I have no idea what a "story game" is, but as a leftist/liberal, I feel ashamed at times to be even anywhere near the same side of the political spectrum as the wacko SJW's. As I mentioned in my earlier post, my own brother attacks me verbally (and a few times physically) for simply not liking communism or anarchism. Because I think communism is bullshit in any form, I'm a "fascist Trump supporter" and because I'm white and a pagan instead of being an atheist Anarcho-Commie, I'm a "Neo-Nazi Odinist" despite hating Nazis and worshipping the Roman Gods and Goddesses instead of the Norse pantheon.

It's getting so bad that I'm worried that in a few months to a few years from now I might get beaten senseless by Antifa thugs for wearing my Tuxedo Mask T-shirt (since anime now somehow equals misogyny, but capeshit is somehow okay) and despite supporting the principles of feminism such as gender equality and equal pay for equal work, I'm ashamed to call myself a feminist since the term has been hijacked by duck-faced misandrist hipsters like Anita Sarkeesian and I don't want to be lumped in with those douchebags.

The right sickens me as well, especially the Neo-Puritan theocons and the Alt-Right. Libertarians are okay since they still support personal liberty, even if I do disagree with their belief that the free market can fix everything.

The Alt-Right was wrong. Trump's victory didn't defeat the SJW hipster commies, it just strengthened them and made them even more smug. Now they have some sense of justification and are getting even more aggressive than ever. That's why I voted for Hillary Clinton, as much as I hate her and her neoconservative policies. Ideologically, I supported Jill Stein, but I felt we needed to stop Trump and his unique brand of idiocy for myriad reasons. The galvanization of the Regressive Left being one of those reasons.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 26, 2017, 07:01:22 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942707
R
How come these SJW's whine about fascism but not Marxism? Both ideologies are abhorrent, tyrannical, and oppressive. I'm all about fighting fascism, but we should also fight communism (both Marxism and Anarchism) with equal vigilance.

  Because while fascism is corrupt at its root, according to some of these folks Marxism is at worst a noble idea that just didn't work out, at best a really good idea if we could just avoid its corruption by the Evil Totalitarians.

  I am not making this up. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?794492-Fate-Core-Red-Planet) And I don't want to hear anyone who spoke positively of it in that thread ever complaining about the idealization or romanticizing of medieval society ...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 26, 2017, 07:11:14 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;942742
Because while fascism is corrupt at its root, according to some of these folks Marxism is at worst a noble idea that just didn't work out, at best a really good idea if we could just avoid its corruption by the Evil Totalitarians.

  I am not making this up. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?794492-Fate-Core-Red-Planet) And I don't want to hear anyone who spoke positively of it in that thread ever complaining about the idealization or romanticizing of medieval society ...

I know, I've heard that mantra a million times from many people both IRL and online. You are right, it is hypocritical to romanticize Marxism or any other form of communism but condemn the romanticizing of Medieval society.

I just finished reading that thread and I am extremely disgusted. They act as if the 1917 Russian Revolution was a good thing when it was a horrible tragedy that led to the deaths of millions of innocents, including women, children, and the Romanov royals. Fuck them.

Fuck RPG.net and its toxic userbase full of Goths and Commies.

Now I want to run a Vampire: The Masquerade game where the PC's are a coterie of Anarchs (most likely modeled after one of the old-school Chicago greaser street gangs such as the Almighty Gaylords, Harrison Gents, Stoned Freaks, or Simon City Royals) that beat up Goths and Commies and take their money so they can avenge the Romanov Dynasty and destroy the neo-communist Millennial SJW's that run the Camarilla, just to make Darren MacLerran seethe. Katanas would also be involved as well, since Darren MacLerran, like most Goths, has an irrational fear and hatred of katanas.

I will not stand by and watch my hobby get hijacked by guyliner-wearing Marxists who listen to Type O Negative and Sisters of Mercy while cutting their wrists and idolizing murderers like Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin.

So, might as well pick an old-school Chicago gang for the coterie of PC's to belong to and get my VTM spite campaign going. I'm leaning towards the Almighty Gaylords of the People Nation since I know the most about their history. (I have a fascination with Chicago street gang history and culture in general)

Founded by Korean War veterans in the 1950's, the Almighty Gaylords were one of Chicago's largest white street gangs and one of the few that have not gone totally extinct. Think along the lines of S.E. Hinton's "The Outsiders", the film "The Warriors", or West Side Story, but in real-life and you wouldn't be far off.

During the 70's and 80's, they were the third or fourth largest and most powerful gang in the city and were a force to be reckoned with. Stone killers and real gentlemen (at least in their words). They were a Caucasian gang comprised of mainly Irish, Italian, and Greek youths and their roots lay in the Stone Greaser subculture of the 1950's and early 1960's. They were closely allied with the Latin Kings (and still are, since both are in the People Nation gang alliance), as well as the Jousters and Stoned Freaks, both of which were Caucasian gangs as well (the Jousters being a greaser gang and the Freaks being a gang of hippies and bikers, founded by Vietnam vets in 1967) and both the Jousters and Freaks are now defunct. The main rivals of the Gaylords were the Simon City Royals (another white greaser gang), the Maniac Latin Disciples (the arch-rivals of the Latin Kings as well), and most of the Folk Nation gangs in general. .

The Gaylords lost a lot of their turf in Chicago proper due to a mix of white flight, gentrification, and crackdowns by the police and ATF (as recently as 2011, the ATF and the Illinois State Police conducted a major bust on the Almighty Gaylords over weapons trafficking). They still have two active sets in Chicago, one in Sayre Park and the other in Kilbourn Park, as well as sets in the suburbs and the rural Midwest.

Do note that this Vampire campaign is just fiction and I do not endorse the Almighty Gaylords or any other criminal gang in real life.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: jeff37923 on January 26, 2017, 07:56:19 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942743
I know, I've heard that mantra a million times from many people both IRL and online. You are right, it is hypocritical to romanticize Marxism or any other form of communism but condemn the romanticizing of Medieval society.

I just finished reading that thread and I am extremely disgusted. They act as if the 1917 Russian Revolution was a good thing when it was a horrible tragedy that led to the deaths of millions of innocents, including women, children, and the Romanov royals. Fuck them.

Fuck RPG.net and its toxic userbase full of Goths and Commies.

Now I want to run a Vampire: The Masquerade game where the PC's are a coterie of Anarchs (most likely modeled after one of the old-school Chicago greaser street gangs such as the Almighty Gaylords, Harrison Gents, Stoned Freaks, or Simon City Royals) that beat up Goths and Commies and take their money so they can avenge the Romanov Dynasty and destroy the neo-communist Millennial SJW's that run the Camarilla, just to make Darren MacLerran seethe. Katanas would also be involved as well, since Darren MacLerran, like most Goths, has an irrational fear and hatred of katanas.

I will not stand by and watch my hobby get hijacked by guyliner-wearing Marxists who listen to Type O Negative and Sisters of Mercy while cutting their wrists and idolizing murderers like Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin.

So, might as well pick an old-school Chicago gang for the coterie of PC's to belong to and get my VTM spite campaign going. I'm leaning towards the Almighty Gaylords of the People Nation since I know the most about their history. (I have a fascination with Chicago street gang history and culture in general)

Founded by Korean War veterans in the 1950's, the Almighty Gaylords were one of Chicago's largest white street gangs and one of the few that have not gone totally extinct. Think along the lines of S.E. Hinton's "The Outsiders", the film "The Warriors", or West Side Story, but in real-life and you wouldn't be far off.

During the 70's and 80's, they were the third or fourth largest and most powerful gang in the city and were a force to be reckoned with. Stone killers and real gentlemen (at least in their words). They were a Caucasian gang comprised of mainly Irish, Italian, and Greek youths and their roots lay in the Stone Greaser subculture of the 1950's and early 1960's. They were closely allied with the Latin Kings (and still are, since both are in the People Nation gang alliance), as well as the Jousters and Stoned Freaks, both of which were Caucasian gangs as well (the Jousters being a greaser gang and the Freaks being a gang of hippies and bikers, founded by Vietnam vets in 1967) and both the Jousters and Freaks are now defunct. The main rivals of the Gaylords were the Simon City Royals (another white greaser gang), the Maniac Latin Disciples (the arch-rivals of the Latin Kings as well), and most of the Folk Nation gangs in general. .

The Gaylords lost a lot of their turf in Chicago proper due to a mix of white flight, gentrification, and crackdowns by the police and ATF (as recently as 2011, the ATF and the Illinois State Police conducted a major bust on the Almighty Gaylords over weapons trafficking). They still have two active sets in Chicago, one in Sayre Park and the other in Kilbourn Park, as well as sets in the suburbs and the rural Midwest.

Do note that this Vampire campaign is just fiction and I do not endorse the Almighty Gaylords or any other criminal gang in real life.

You could just play a libertine merchant in Traveller......Marxists hate Traveller.....
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 26, 2017, 08:35:11 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;942746
You could just play a libertine merchant in Traveller......Marxists hate Traveller.....

Sadly, I do not own Traveller or have any familiarity with it (I'll check it out). I do own Vampire and enjoy it (1e and 2e anyway, Revised sucks ass) and I like the idea of taking one of the traditional RPG's still treasured by the PC crowd and turning it on its head in a way that spites them.

Plus, homebrewing the Goth out of Vampire is one of the quickest ways to get RPG.net flying into full crimson rage.

I might also do an anti-SJW game with Big Eyes Small Mouth 1e/The Sailor Moon Role-Playing Game and Resource Book as well. And let's be honest, the RPG.net mods (most notably Darren MacLerran and Black Hat Matt) are commie loons who are just upset because Goth music sucks and they're too fanatical to realize it.

"In the name of the Moon, I will punish you, RPG.net! Kill a Commie for Mommy!"

But to get back to the topic at hand, the idea that RPG's are fascist is just silly.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on January 26, 2017, 09:11:42 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942734
This. Edition wars are bullshit and I have no idea what a "story game" is, but as a leftist/liberal, I feel ashamed at times to be even anywhere near the same side of the political spectrum as the wacko SJW's. As I mentioned in my earlier post, my own brother attacks me verbally (and a few times physically) for simply not liking communism or anarchism.

Whoa.  Dude, not cool.  Please tell me you're not living in a home with this.  Or, you know, you're at least knocking him in the skull right back...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 26, 2017, 09:18:10 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;942750
Whoa.  Dude, not cool.  Please tell me you're not living in a home with this.  Or, you know, you're at least knocking him in the skull right back...


If I fight back, my parents will turn me over to the cops (My brother is the favorite of the family while I am essentially a black sheep, my parents most likely resent and regret me though they do not verbalize it)

He hit me recently and I did not fight back, but I called the cops on him and I ended up getting arrested and charged by the cops because I was seen as the "primary aggressor" due to the bullshit my brother spun, even though I was the one who called them, my brother didn't have a scratch on him despite my face and neck being covered in bruises and pump knots, and I have to go to court a week from now for a crime that I was the victim of.

Even my attorney was appalled. Luckily my youngest brother was a witness, can verify my statements, and I probably will be found not guilty or have my case thrown out. But given my luck in life, I'm still wary and not holding my breath.

Fuck my life.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on January 26, 2017, 09:55:05 PM
Dude, I'm gonna tell you what you already know- you need to get out of that situation ASAP.  I don't know how, I don't know your situation, or anything like that.

And maybe start collecting evidence or something.  Shit is not healthy, and your mom and dad can get into trouble, too.  Domestic Violence charges aren't anything to scoff at, and when young children are involved- CPS is gonna have a hoot.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 26, 2017, 10:21:28 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;942758
Dude, I'm gonna tell you what you already know- you need to get out of that situation ASAP.  I don't know how, I don't know your situation, or anything like that.

And maybe start collecting evidence or something.  Shit is not healthy, and your mom and dad can get into trouble, too.  Domestic Violence charges aren't anything to scoff at, and when young children are involved- CPS is gonna have a hoot.

We're adults living with our mother though. I should have clarified that, so it would not be in the domain of CPS. I'm 23, my commie brother is 21, and my youngest brother is 19 (pathetic of me to be 23 and still living with my mom, I know). My mom blamed me for what happened when I got arrested, but for once, also chastised my brother for hitting me and getting the cops called.

My dad and mom got divorced in 2015, and my Dad lives out of town. I have no means of transportation (possessing neither a license or a car, and I'm not medically cleared to even get a learner's permit according to the DMV) and my only income is from Social Security SSI checks I get each month (I would get a job since money is not an issue, but I can only get minimum wage part-time work, and if I do get a job, I'll lose my Medicaid, which I need so I can get my medications, which help me function). I can't afford to live in the Roanoke Valley on my own and I have few friends (fuck it, I have literally one actual friend and a handful of acquaintances in this shithole of a town), so I don't have any roommate options. I almost never leave the house anymore, I'm pretty much forced to be a shut-in for the most part. My mother works night shift at a hospital (she is an RN) and is rarely there for me (she does have to sleep, so I can't fault her) and I'm pretty much stuck alone in the house all day. It's not anyone's fault in particular, just a shitty situation. I lack access to public transportation (there is a bus in the city of Roanoke proper, but I live in Roanoke County and the nearest bus stop is three miles away on foot. So during the cold of winter and the brutal heat of summer, the bus is a no-go)

Luckily, my dad still actually likes me (my Mom loves me, but does probably regret me, at least according to my commie brother) and currently lives in rural Wise County, VA. In May of this year, I'm moving out to live with my dad and stepmother in Wise, near where I grew up prior to moving to Roanoke. I would move earlier, but my Dad and my step-siblings are transitioning from a small trailer to an actual decent house in the woods. Once the move is completed (which will happen in April or early May at the latest), I can move in with him.

It may not be New Jersey, but I'll take living with my Dad in the middle-of-nowhere coalfields of Wise County over my current situation any day of the week. I'm doing my best to get out of this fanatical SJW nightmare, but it's gonna be a few months due to financial and transportation constraints. I'll tough it out though. Don't worry.

As it stands, the only things keeping me anywhere close to semi-sane are my fanfic prompts I'm working on, listening to oldies music and watching anime, having daydreams about my waifu Noctis Lucis Caelum (cutesy lovey-dovey daydreams, nothing deviant), and this forum. You guys are awesome, and even if we don't get along all the time, I still feel welcome here.

But things will get better soon. I think 2017 will turn out be a good year for the Doc.

Anyway, let's get back on topic so Pundit doesn't close the thread.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Omega on January 27, 2017, 12:12:07 AM
Quote from: Crüesader;942606
I think I'm missing something and I require some information and opinions here- but what is it with every time I see something stupid, the term 'storygamers' comes up?  What is it with the storygamers?  I've never played one or encountered anyone playing one, but quite honestly every one of these batshit opinions comes from there.  What is it with those games that cultivates this mindset?


Same here. Some of the most fruitcake claims have come from their camp. Note that very often their attacks are directed at traditional RPGs. So this may be the age old case of marketing ploy. Point at your competition and claim they cause brain damage while your own saintly clean games are safe for all mankind!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 27, 2017, 03:48:23 AM
Quote from: jhkim;942708
I've already posted about my disagreement with Rafu who was quoted.

On the other hand, your rebuttal selectively pulls out quotes from different people and then presents all of them as what story gamers as a whole believe. That's just like selecting out quotes from 5 Stone Games on blacks' IQ or Snowman0147 on "fuck world peace", and presenting them as what traditional gamers all believe.

You act as if it's your first Pundit's article. Remember when Mr Class Act  was posting blog posts from Vince Baker's little ménage à trois drama, spreading rumours how he was fucking someone's wife? Obviously the rules of "No private life" don't apply to Swine.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: jhkim on January 27, 2017, 03:56:51 AM
Quote from: Crüesader;942728
People say that the things I'm interested in draw in fascists... but so far I've only encountered reasonable adults that have their shit together.

As far as what story games are, I still don't know how they work.  I mean, I thought all RPG's were focused on a fun story and were already cooperative.  Most RPG's I've played tend to have a dead party if it isn't cooperative.

I'll give a shot at explaining story games, if you're curious. Story game is a very broad term which is sometimes used to also mean a traditional RPG, but also includes GMless games like Fiasco and Microscope, as well as GMed games with narrational mechanics such as FATE and Apocalypse World.

Fiasco is a game emulating Coen brother movies like Fargo, where people get into terrible trouble from their schemes. The players generate a background by semi-random picks from tables specific to their setting, then play out a series of scenes using narrative mechanics, then roll at the end for the ultimate fate of their character, which is almost always disastrous. It's a very fun one-shot game, in my opinion.

Microscope is a story game but not an RPG. It is cited in the 5e Dungeon Master's Guide for use in developing background. Players take turns created events in the timeline of a setting, according to certain rules.

FATE and Apocalypse World are close to traditional RPGs, but they have some metagame features - like Fate Points used to shift rolls or create plot twists (depending on the implementation).


Quote from: Doc Sammy;942734
This. Edition wars are bullshit and I have no idea what a "story game" is, but as a leftist/liberal, I feel ashamed at times to be even anywhere near the same side of the political spectrum as the wacko SJW's. As I mentioned in my earlier post, my own brother attacks me verbally (and a few times physically) for simply not liking communism or anarchism.

That sucks about your family situation, Doc Sammy. People can be huge jerks sometimes, and best of luck working it out. I have friends who have been in similar situations from a variety of politics - family abusing them supposedly because of their religion, or because they're gay, or for their politics - but a lot of this is just bullying.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on January 27, 2017, 04:57:41 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;942625
Then they were playing that game wrong. The point of grey ranks was obviously to show that Polish heroism was futile and stupid, and that heroism in general is just a flawed stupid thing that imperialists made up. Clearly, those Polish youth were either really jew-hating monsters (which is a TERRIBLE thing to be...if you're right-wing. Left wingers of course SHOULD hate Jews, because it Helps Islamism and that's a good thing), or idiots, or cowards, and anyone smart should have waited for the Soviets to come and gloriously liberate them for the sake of International Communism.

GREY RANKS is a flawed game but this misrepresents it pretty seriously. It notes that the Soviet army stopped their advance on purpose so that the uprising could be crushed by the Germans. The sympathy that the author feels for the Polish rebels is clear from the historical context sections and recommended reading. If he was some pro-Communist he would have had you fighting for the Soviets not the nationalists.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on January 27, 2017, 05:00:11 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;942625
Then they were playing that game wrong. The point of grey ranks was obviously to show that Polish heroism was futile and stupid, and that heroism in general is just a flawed stupid thing that imperialists made up.


I've never read or played Grey Ranks. Is that really the concept of the game? Or just the online talk?


Quote from: Doc Sammy;942707
It's idiots like these who make me ashamed to be a leftist these days.


You don't sound like a leftist. At least by today's definition.

Ex-liberal? Centrist? Uncrazy? I don't know, but we need new words.


Quote from: Doc Sammy;942707
How come these SJW's whine about fascism but not Marxism? Both ideologies are abhorrent, tyrannical, and oppressive. I'm all about fighting fascism, but we should also fight communism (both Marxism and Anarchism) with equal vigilance.


Good point.


Quote from: Doc Sammy;942714
The Pope may be French, but Jesus was English! IT'S ON!


What's that from?


Quote from: Doc Sammy;942734
The galvanization of the Regressive Left being one of those reasons.


That was happening whether Grandma Nixon or not.

However, by the Glorious Cheeto winning, we have the galvanization of both sides.

Which means I can haz mucho lulz for 4 years.


Quote from: Doc Sammy;942743
old-school Chicago greaser street gangs such as the Almighty Gaylords


Almighty Gaylords...

...must not pee pants in hysterics...must not...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on January 27, 2017, 05:41:38 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;942773
I've never read or played Grey Ranks. Is that really the concept of the game? Or just the online talk?

I've read GREY RANKS and that is not the concept of the game. How anyone who has actually read it could arrive at such a viewpoint is a bit of a mystery. The characters are supposed to die by the end (just as in most CoC games) but are intended to be noble if human and flawed. It is a very ambitious experiment for a rpg or storygame and may not suceed, due to unclear rules and what reads to me as too vague story mechanics, but there's no reason to invent such distasteful motivations that are no where apparent in the text.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 27, 2017, 06:11:04 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;942773

Almighty Gaylords...

...must not pee pants in hysterics...must not...

That's actually the name of a real Chicago street gang, the name was chosen back in the early 1950's when gay meant happy and had nothing to do with homosexuality. Plus Gaylord is the English translation of Galliard, the Gaillards being an ancient European warrior tribe (Richard I was supposedly a descendant of the Galliards). The founder of the gang, Anthony "Johnny Boy" Anarina, a Korean War veteran, picked the name for two reasons. The first being a reference to the Galliards, but also because again, Gaylord is the Anglicized translation of an Italian word meaning "Brute Strength".

I've actually met members of the Gaylords gang from the Paducah, Kentucky set. They were quiet blue-collar white guys in their thirties and forties but also kind of scary as well. Like you could feel a palpable aura of violence from hanging around them.

Here's some more information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Gaylords
http://chicagogangs.org/index.php?pr=gaylords
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 27, 2017, 06:54:55 AM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942781
That's actually the name of a real Chicago street gang, the name was chosen back in the early 1950's when gay meant happy and had nothing to do with homosexuality.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/2topPPBhUK3hC/giphy.gif)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on January 27, 2017, 07:37:02 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;942689


Anyhow, in Tolkien the orcs were clearly symbolic of fascists.



Not according to Tolkien and a lot of the people who analyze LoTR. They were more likely symbolic of the corrupting horrors of industrialization and the modern world.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on January 27, 2017, 07:59:50 AM
Quote from: Voros;942772
GREY RANKS is a flawed game but this misrepresents it pretty seriously. It notes that the Soviet army stopped their advance on purpose so that the uprising could be crushed by the Germans. The sympathy that the author feels for the Polish rebels is clear from the historical context sections and recommended reading. If he was some pro-Communist he would have had you fighting for the Soviets not the nationalists.


I didn't mean to suggest that the author was specifically anti-Polish. Or even specifically pro-Soviet in the classical sense.
Only that he is anti-Heroism, because he is against traditional western values.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on January 27, 2017, 08:54:05 AM
I have a campaign I have been planning for a while. It is set in the early 17th starting in Ireland and moving to Mediterranean.  The characters are part of a new company which has been formed to trade between Livorno (Leghorn) and England, which will given the period, involve trading in slaves (although not sub-Saharan Africans)  .  The campaign would start with the characters and their wives visiting relatives in the Protestant town of Baltimore in Ireland.  While there the town is raided by Muslim Corsairs lead by Irish Catholics and a large part of the town population, including the characters wives, are captured to be sold at slave auctions in the cities of the North African Barbary Coast. I guess that makes me a Fascist.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 27, 2017, 09:18:15 AM
Aaaaand back to pants-on-heads, "Storygames are a ploy to kill West" content :rolleyes:
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 27, 2017, 09:53:46 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;942805
Aaaaand back to pants-on-heads, "Storygames are a ploy to kill West" content :rolleyes:

I don't even know what constitutes a story game. I thought all RPG's had some semblance of a story? Oh well, better get back to my "West Side Story With Fangs" Vampire game.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 27, 2017, 11:13:14 AM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942808
I don't even know what constitutes a story game. I thought all RPG's had some semblance of a story? Oh well, better get back to my "West Side Story With Fangs" Vampire game.

Depending if you ask the sane half or the insane one of the forum, it's either a game which focuses on constructing a story together through usually metagame-ish mechanics, rather than immersion on one particular character as done in classical RPG, or a ploy by cultural Marxists to destroy Western civilization.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on January 27, 2017, 01:06:20 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;942817
Depending if you ask the sane half or the insane one of the forum, it's either a game which focuses on constructing a story together through usually metagame-ish mechanics, rather than immersion on one particular character as done in classical RPG, or a ploy by cultural Marxists to destroy Western civilization.

[Citation needed]
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 27, 2017, 01:22:32 PM
To be honest, I never even heard of storygames until I joined this forum.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 27, 2017, 01:23:22 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942830
To be honest, I never even heard of storygames until I joined this forum.

It should be a tell-tale sign.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 27, 2017, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;942826
[Citation needed]
Citations are for left - wing pussie- oh right.

Quote from: RPGPundit;942625
Then they were playing that game wrong. The point of grey ranks was obviously to show that Polish heroism was futile and stupid, and that heroism in general is just a flawed stupid thing that imperialists made up. Clearly, those Polish youth were either really jew-hating monsters (which is a TERRIBLE thing to be...if you're right-wing. Left wingers of course SHOULD hate Jews, because it Helps Islamism and that's a good thing), or idiots, or cowards, and anyone smart should have waited for the Soviets to come and gloriously liberate them for the sake of International Communism.

That's the kind of shit these absolute motherfuckers believe. It is their goal to undermine EVERYTHING that is the least bit righteous or noble in our entire civilization.  Because their very souls have been poisoned to the core.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;942830
To be honest, I never even heard of storygames until I joined this forum.

It should be a tell-tale sign.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on January 27, 2017, 04:05:29 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;942832
Citations are for left - wing pussie- oh right.

Since when have 'facts' and 'reality' been a part of the left wing?

Anyway, this is going to turn into left vs. right again, so I'm sort of done.  I've learned what storygames are (and I'm not interested), and I've found yet another European that obsesses over America more than some flag-waving hillbilly.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 27, 2017, 04:13:25 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;942865
Since when have 'facts' and 'reality' been a part of the left wing?

Anyway, this is going to turn into left vs. right again, so I'm sort of done.  I've learned what storygames are (and I'm not interested), and I've found yet another European that obsesses over America more than some flag-waving hillbilly.

1)  Since 1789.

2) Not really
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 27, 2017, 05:05:37 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;942865
Since when have 'facts' and 'reality' been a part of the left wing?

Anyway, this is going to turn into left vs. right again, so I'm sort of done.  I've learned what storygames are (and I'm not interested), and I've found yet another European that obsesses over America more than some flag-waving hillbilly.


I'm a hillbilly from the heart of Appalachia and I'm fascinated by all the international users of this forum getting so worked up by this election cycle, whether it be Pundit or anyone else. They're not the ones getting fucked over by Trump and his batshit policies or the further galvanization of the radical left. I do have to live with this bullshit, they don't.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Pete Nash on January 27, 2017, 05:15:37 PM
Believe me, the foreign policy of the US poses a considerable threat to the security of a large proportion of the world, let alone what will happen if the US dollar collapses.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 27, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942872
I'm a hillbilly from the heart of Appalachia and I'm fascinated by all the international users of this forum getting so worked up by this election cycle, whether it be Pundit or anyone else. They're not the ones getting fucked over by Trump and his batshit policies or the further galvanization of the radical left. I do have to live with this bullshit, they don't.

You're the Roman Empire of the day, and after chewing through Carthage's throat, no less. Of course people are going to be interested. That, and this election caused a fuckton of weirdies, bozos, crazies and Methodists to come out of the woodwork here.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 27, 2017, 05:29:03 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;942874
You're the Roman Empire of the day, and after chewing through Carthage's throat, no less. Of course people are going to be interested. That, and this election caused a fuckton of weirdies, bozos, crazies and Methodists to come out of the woodwork here.


Hey! Don't insult the Roman Empire like that. We're far worse than Rome.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 27, 2017, 05:43:43 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942876
Hey! Don't insult the Roman Empire like that. We're far worse than Rome.

Pretty sure no matter how bad Trump is, he's got nothing on Caligula.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 27, 2017, 06:17:02 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;942883
Pretty sure no matter how bad Trump is, he's got nothing on Caligula.


I know, it was just a joke.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on January 27, 2017, 07:45:27 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942889
I know, it was just a joke.


Watch it, man. People block list ya around here for making jokes... :rolleyes:
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 28, 2017, 02:47:53 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;942689
Anyhow, in Tolkien the orcs were clearly symbolic of fascists.


* looks at watch * Damn, bullshit o'clock already?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 28, 2017, 03:31:54 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;942689


Anyhow, in Ralph Bakshi's Wizards the orcs were clearly symbolic of fascists.



Fixed that for you :)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 28, 2017, 03:40:00 AM
In Tolkien's case it was always a bit complicated. On one hand, he said himself that the books are not an allegory for WW2 (on the other hand, the author of Fahrenheit 451 will get his panties in a twist if you say the book's about censorship, and let's face it, who out of us who read it thought it was about TV replacing books?). On the other hand, death of the author, blah blah, and you can't help but think how the experiences of 2 World Wars in a lifetime, helped shape those books. Ultimately, if they were symbolic, then not by conscious design, so definitely not clearly.

After all, if anything, they were clearly an allegory of Tolkien's hatred for the working class, as Moorcock said ;).
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on January 28, 2017, 05:01:31 AM
People often quote Tolkein saying he disliked allegory and denying his books were allegorical but in his great book on The Hobbit and riddles Adam Roberts quotes him in another letter discussing his writing as being allegorical of his Christian belief. I think the religious intent of his books is much more significant than the war but I suspect a lot of his readers are uncomfortable with that aspect of Tolkein's writing and would rather bend the novels into WWI or II allegories.

Re: Moorcock, his critique isn't too far out if you read some of the Sauron passages in the Silmarillon where Tolkein makes him sound like a trouble-making socialist union organizer.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Warboss Squee on January 28, 2017, 11:17:40 AM
Everything is open to interpretation. Doesn't make it correct, however.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on January 28, 2017, 03:56:08 PM
Here is good example of this crap. I am in playing in a Saga of the Icelanders  game at one point I was ordering a another PC thrall about and  a third player took exception to this and called my character an asshole, the player of the thrall had no issues . There was an OOC discussion about the difference in ranks of the characters and how my character was doing something acceptable. The lefty fuckwit was having none it, so I guess bringing rank into a game set in medieval Iceland makes the game and me fascist.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 28, 2017, 08:20:00 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;942991
Here is good example of this crap. I am in playing in a Saga of the Icelanders  game at one point I was ordering a another PC thrall about and  a third player took exception to this and called my character an asshole, the player of the thrall had no issues . There was an OOC discussion about the difference in ranks of the characters and how my character was doing something acceptable. The lefty fuckwit was having none it, so I guess bringing rank into a game set in medieval Iceland makes the game and me fascist.

Should have had the discussion IC, and just called him out in a Holmgang. :D
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on January 29, 2017, 02:57:13 AM
The problem is every ideology has noble and toxic aspects. Yes, even #Fascism. But determining which are which and when the costs outweigh the benefits (let alone the ability to engage in such nuanced thinking) depends on the beliefs and values you hold. So the only thing which makes a game anti-fascist is being played by a group which already holds anti-fascist beliefs and values, in which case it isn't fighting #Fascism, only validating those beliefs and values.

In other words, any game can enforce/expose existing assumptions, but a game which seeks to change/establish new patterns of though and behavior must either risk establishing the 'wrong' ones (the price of living in a free society), or enforce a single correct interpretation (which is only possible in a #Fascist state). And which one has more merit depends on your beliefs and values.

Quote from: Pete Nash;942873
Believe me, the foreign policy of the US poses a considerable threat to the security of a large proportion of the world, let alone what will happen if the US dollar collapses.


Yes.

And?

Quote from: waltshumate;942991
Here is good example of this crap. I am in playing in a Saga of the Icelanders  game at one point I was ordering a another PC thrall about and  a third player took exception to this and called my character an asshole, the player of the thrall had no issues . There was an OOC discussion about the difference in ranks of the characters and how my character was doing something acceptable. The lefty fuckwit was having none it, so I guess bringing rank into a game set in medieval Iceland makes the game and me fascist.


Quote from: CRKrueger;943008
Should have had the discussion IC, and just called him out in a Holmgang. :D


Yeah, unironically agree with CRKrueger here. This was something that should have been resolved in character, unless it was the player and not their character calling your character an asshole, in which case it was an opinion and nothing needs to be resolved at all, in or out of character.

It is however a great example of how a game can't change the values and beliefs of its players, and what happens when it tries. It's also a great example of how people justify their actions when an ideology makes them 'acceptable', like how looting #Jewish homes was under the #ThirdReich. And just because something is acceptable doesn't mean it's just, useful, or benign.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 29, 2017, 03:52:46 AM
Quote from: waltshumate;942991
The lefty fuckwit

You lot must have a fun table.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on January 29, 2017, 04:11:10 AM
It's best to avoid fuckwits of all persuasions.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on January 29, 2017, 07:09:39 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;943023
The problem is every ideology has noble and toxic aspects. Yes, even #Fascism.

Italian Fascism had some intellectual underpining: a combination of extreme nationalism, mysticism, revolutionary socialism and syndicalism. It made as much sense as Marxism and just like it the gap between the idea and reality ended up being filled with a lot of real life bodies. German fascism though was pretty incoherent and reprehensible from the start. Compare the writings of Mussolini and Gentile to Hitler and Rosenberg. The latter is unmitigated swill.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on January 29, 2017, 08:00:30 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943030
You lot must have a fun table.

It's online.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on January 29, 2017, 08:15:42 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;943023

Yeah, unironically agree with CRKrueger here. This was something that should have been resolved in character, unless it was the player and not their character calling your character an asshole, in which case it was an opinion and nothing needs to be resolved at all, in or out of character.



It was the the player/ calling the character an asshole.  It seems that every lefty gamer has the idea that ever character must have modern progressive ideals if you don't no doubt your a fascist, so instead of giving the thrall orders I should have had him set him free or setup a union for him and made sure he had 30 days holiday a year and free medical . If it had been a face to face game I would have challenged him about it, but it was an online site and being a lefty he probably he would have went whining to the moderators.  I have a sneaking suspicion he is a story-gamer also as he keeps insisting we stick to the moves even if it does not make any roleplaying sense.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on January 29, 2017, 08:17:42 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943008
Should have had the discussion IC, and just called him out in a Holmgang. :D

That's a good idea but being a fuckwit lefty male he is playing an 8 year old girl.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on January 29, 2017, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: waltshumate;943099
That's a good idea but being a fuckwit lefty male he is playing an 8 year old girl.

Just a word of advice- I've no idea what kind of roleplaying you're doing, or where it is- but politics aside, when an adult male starts wanting to roleplay as a little girl... some red flags go off for me.  I've seen that kind of shit get really, really wrong in the online communities.  My sincere advice to you is that when you encounter something like this, and no one else is raising suspicions- just gracefully bow out and head somewhere else.  You don't want to be a part of it, and you certainly don't want people in that community associating you with something like that.

When it comes to the online stuff, I might not be the best source.  I see people roleplaying certain things and I just... 'nope'.  It never goes anywhere positive.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 29, 2017, 09:26:12 AM
Well, the Child is a playbook in SotI, but I never really saw much point to it.

The weird thing about the complaints of this player are...if they did want to play by Raw and stick to moves...the whole point of playing the Thrall is using Moves that are essentially Do What You Are Told, Disobey, Do Your Own Thing.  If no one ever gives you orders, your special playbook moves are meaningless.

The real question I have though is, you seem like you are using the word "Storygamer" almost as a perjorative.  If so, why in the Norns Name would you ever play an X-world hack?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 29, 2017, 09:38:13 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943115
Well, the Child is a playbook in SotI, but I never really saw much point to it.

The weird thing about the complaints of this player are...if they did want to play by Raw and stick to moves...the whole point of playing the Thrall is using Moves that are essentially Do What You Are Told, Disobey, Do Your Own Thing.  If no one ever gives you orders, your special playbook moves are meaningless.

The real question I have though is, you seem like you are using the word "Storygamer" almost as a perjorative.  If so, why in the Norns Name would you ever play an X-world hack?

Ask me that question in a few months, when X-world KULT is out in full...urrrrrrrgh. I mean, why, why, why. I'd even live with POWERED BY FATE sticker. Why did it have to be Apocalypse World. But I'm still going to give it a try, in a vain hope that perhaps simplifying one of the worst offenders of 90s skill-based behemoths (well, worst that is still fun to play) was worth the X-world mechanics.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 29, 2017, 09:40:47 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943120
Ask me that question in a few months, when X-world KULT is out in full...urrrrrrrgh. I mean, why, why, why. I'd even live with POWERED BY FATE sticker. Why did it have to be Apocalypse World. But I'm still going to give it a try, in a vain hope that perhaps simplifying one of the worst offenders of 90s skill-based behemoths (well, worst that is still fun to play) was worth the X-world mechanics.

Hopefully they won't have a Design Phase where you and the other players generate all the Fronts for Metropolis. :p
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 29, 2017, 09:46:23 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943122
Hopefully they won't have a Design Phase where you and the other players generate all the Fronts for Metropolis. :p

From what I have seen, the lore is solid. The mechanics...I have yet to test (I have the Quick Start), but the opinions I heard so far were mixed, to say the least. I have a hunch it might work very well for 2 - 3 sessions long games, not so long for campaigns, but to be fair, in case of horror games, that might be not that bad of a design in practice.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 29, 2017, 01:10:13 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;943101
Just a word of advice- I've no idea what kind of roleplaying you're doing, or where it is- but politics aside, when an adult male starts wanting to roleplay as a little girl... some red flags go off for me.  I've seen that kind of shit get really, really wrong in the online communities.  My sincere advice to you is that when you encounter something like this, and no one else is raising suspicions- just gracefully bow out and head somewhere else.  You don't want to be a part of it, and you certainly don't want people in that community associating you with something like that.

When it comes to the online stuff, I might not be the best source.  I see people roleplaying certain things and I just... 'nope'.  It never goes anywhere positive.


There's a scenario, I think it's in the Beyond The Supernatural main book, where the characters are all preteen girls caught up in a situation with ghosts and monsters and stuff. It's kinda played for humor "Ohmigawd Becky, look at his face!"
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: S'mon on January 29, 2017, 03:30:58 PM
"Venture capitalism" and "competitiveness" are not Fascist - Fascism is collectivist and frowns on unrestrained competition. There are fashy games - WH40K comes to mind - but obviously here they are using the word to mean "right wing" in the American sense, which includes very un-fashy tropes like individualism and the free market.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 29, 2017, 05:33:01 PM
Quote from: S'mon;943173
"Venture capitalism" and "competitiveness" are not Fascist - Fascism is collectivist and frowns on unrestrained competition. There are fashy games - WH40K comes to mind - but obviously here they are using the word to mean "right wing" in the American sense, which includes very un-fashy tropes like individualism and the free market.

  Yes, I have to admit I laughed a bit when I saw those included as 'fascist' elements. But again, I think they're using the Old School Progressive definition of fascism--anything to Stalin's right.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 29, 2017, 07:08:40 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;943099
That's a good idea but being a fuckwit lefty male he is playing an 8 year old girl.

As opposed to a fuckwit righty male playing a 40 year old merc loaner.

Fuckwit is fuckwit regardless of political persuasion.  Stop trying to pretend that fuckwittery is somehow exclusive to one political viewpoint.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 29, 2017, 07:10:12 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943115
The real question I have though is, you seem like you are using the word "Storygamer" almost as a perjorative.  If so, why in the Norns Name would you ever play an X-world hack?

AC4, 6+3 HD, regenerates 3 HP per round, rubbery green skin
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: David Johansen on January 29, 2017, 07:21:34 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942933
* looks at watch * Damn, bullshit o'clock already?

It's always bullshit o'clock around here as you very well know.  We're well across the boundaries of Wonderland and even the folks at the Mad Hatter's tea party look at us funny.

Quote from: RPGPundit;942791
Not according to Tolkien and a lot of the people who analyze LoTR. They were more likely symbolic of the corrupting horrors of industrialization and the modern world.

One might argue that fascism is a corrupting horror of industrialization.

It's funny how the wrong one liner can draw so much ire around here.  :D
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Headless on January 30, 2017, 01:04:18 AM
I think I will try to deal with the original Idea.  That role playing is fascist, or has fascist leanings.

First I am typing on a tiny little screen.  Sorry for that.  

I while back I discovered something I called Literary facism.  Which was nothing more than the good guys to be the good guys becuase the author says so.  Not necessarily becuase they are particularly noble of just.  You have probably noticed it too and given it a different name.  I know pundit see's it in blue rose what ever that is.  I wonder what he calls it?

To give an example I first noticed it re-reading one of Eddings books.  The Saphire Rose?  Any way our hero's are a group of platemail wearing crusder knight wizards.  They come to a city in their kingdom and are stopped at the gate by a mustash twirling beaurocratic guard who won't let them in.  He's on orders from his superior specifically to stop them. They try to talk their way in. He twirls his mustash and says no.  Then the Galahad character who is so pure he is still a virgin (to signal his virtue) chops him in half.  On they go.

The first time I read it I was like "fuck yeah! stick it to the man.  That officious twit."  the author took plenty of time to assure us that was the morally correct action.  The second time through I still found it satisfying, cause who doesnt want to see a petty beaurocrat chopped in half by a great sword, but i also realised they just murdered that guy in cold blood for doing his job.  Its the ablity to justify anything done to the bad guys becuase they are evil.  And they are evil becuase they oppose the good guys.

So thats what I call literary fascism though I need to find a new name.  Its a feature fascism has, but it isn't limited to fascism.

That seems to be related to the facist featured of role playing mentioned in the op.  Again looking for a new name.

Its a game of escapism.  You get to kill things with out consequences.  Or pretend to kill things with out pretend consequences. We can do that cause they are evil.  But they are only evil cause we say so.  For the escapist fantasy thats enough.  The problem is we have had that kind of logic in history.  It was bad.  Stalin and Hitler would not have been possible without that logic.  Hitler more famously thats why its gets called facism.  

It also looks really racist.  The orcs are bad cause they were born orcs.  They have an evil nature.  In the real world people don't have natures.  No race is born bad.  But people have used that logic in our history.  Call it colonialism instead of facism.  It didn't go well for the locals.  

Any way that's my honest attemp at forming the case in the op.  I disagree with the op that these features are an actual problem or that D&D is the place to fight them.  Hopefully i have done my job well enought to change the op from stupid to merely wrong.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on January 30, 2017, 05:21:10 AM
Quote from: Voros;943076
the gap between the idea and reality ended up being filled with a lot of real life bodies.


That.

That's what I'm trying to get across about these efforts, even when lives are not at stake. Without practical understanding of what causes the problems in the first place these good intentions can only make things worse.

Quote from: waltshumate;943097
It was the the player/ calling the character an asshole.


So they stated an opinion about a fictional persona. Oh the humanity.

Quote from: waltshumate;943097
It seems that every lefty gamer has the idea that ever character must have modern progressive ideals if you don't no doubt your a fascist


So did they call you a #Fascist? Did they demand you change your character's behavior? Did they demand you change your behavior?

This is exactly the kind of unhelpful scope creep and followup assumptions I'm concerned about.

Quote from: waltshumate;943097
I have a sneaking suspicion he is a story-gamer also as he keeps insisting we stick to the moves even if it does not make any roleplaying sense.


The moves always make roleplaying sense, because they're only applied when it does. I get the feeling neither of you understand the system, because one doesn't stick to moves, or choose which ones to attempt. They're simply triggered when the situation makes sense to do so.

This is why I keep character sheets behind the screen for PbtA games at this point.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on January 30, 2017, 06:40:13 AM
Quote from: Crüesader;943101
Just a word of advice- I've no idea what kind of roleplaying you're doing, or where it is- but politics aside, when an adult male starts wanting to roleplay as a little girl... some red flags go off for me.  I've seen that kind of shit get really, really wrong in the online communities.  My sincere advice to you is that when you encounter something like this, and no one else is raising suspicions- just gracefully bow out and head somewhere else.  You don't want to be a part of it, and you certainly don't want people in that community associating you with something like that.

When it comes to the online stuff, I might not be the best source.  I see people roleplaying certain things and I just... 'nope'.  It never goes anywhere positive.

As CRKrueger has said it is one of the roles and the game is about characters in a small community and life in the community not adventurers wandering killing and stealing.  The others characters Huscarl, Godi (Community and spiritual leader), Seiðkona (magic user / god talker) and  even the the Thrall who advises the Godi, despite his status, are decision makers in the community yet he chose to play a child no doubt so he could stick it to the bourgeoisie characters, I have played a child before, in other games, but all the characters were children.

 I have also  played in a story games before (Trollbabe, Sorcerer and Dogs in the Vinyard) and they are really not to my taste because of the jargon and the way system always gets in the way of the story, in Trollbabe I couldn't open a door for some weird game mechanic reason. The GM / Master of Ceremonies is is not hell bent on enforcing mechanics that break the story,  of course the lefty fuckwit is since he likes to point every time something does not fit with mechanics of the game.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on January 30, 2017, 06:46:46 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;943202
As opposed to a fuckwit righty male playing a 40 year old merc loaner.

Fuckwit is fuckwit regardless of political persuasion.  Stop trying to pretend that fuckwittery is somehow exclusive to one political viewpoint.


But the left fucking excel at it.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 30, 2017, 08:29:24 AM
Quote from: waltshumate;943252
But the left fucking excel at it.


I dunno, the Right is good at being fuckwits themselves. Just look at Milo Yiannopolous, Ted Cruz, Steve Drain, the late Jack Chick, or our current president and his Puritan VP.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: jhkim on January 30, 2017, 02:24:07 PM
Keeping this to gaming fuckwits -

Quote from: waltshumate;943097
It was the the player/ calling the character an asshole.  It seems that every lefty gamer has the idea that ever character must have modern progressive ideals if you don't no doubt your a fascist, so instead of giving the thrall orders I should have had him set him free or setup a union for him and made sure he had 30 days holiday a year and free medical . If it had been a face to face game I would have challenged him about it, but it was an online site and being a lefty he probably he would have went whining to the moderators.  I have a sneaking suspicion he is a story-gamer also as he keeps insisting we stick to the moves even if it does not make any roleplaying sense.
Yeah, I've seen this behavior in some leftist gamers. I've also seen this behavior in right-wing gamers if my character is offensive to them. One case is if my character is gay, or black, or communist, or such.

Another case is exactly the same as the leftist objection. If my character is a racist who believes in slavery, then simultaneously some left-leaning players may object because the character might seem like a right-wing hero - while some right-wing player object because the character might seem like a right-wing villain.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 30, 2017, 03:09:14 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;943252
But the left fucking excel at it.

Damn, where is that rolleyes smiley barfing a stream of rolleyes smileys when we need it?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ulairi on January 30, 2017, 03:34:01 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;943191
Yes, I have to admit I laughed a bit when I saw those included as 'fascist' elements. But again, I think they're using the Old School Progressive definition of fascism--anything to Stalin's right.


If Fascism is bad because Hitler was a fascist and he killed a lot of people. Then, should we ask about collectivist and how games fight those? Because Marxism is responsible for more death than fascism ever dreamed to be.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 30, 2017, 03:55:36 PM
Quote from: Ulairi;943310
If Fascism is bad because Hitler was a fascist and he killed a lot of people. Then, should we ask about collectivist and how games fight those? Because Marxism is responsible for more death than fascism ever dreamed to be.

True, Communists killed more people than Fascists.  But...

The Cambodian killing fields were more racial then they were classist communist ideological killings.  They resembled Hitler's Genocide more than Stalin's Tyranny or Mao's Purges.

Speaking of Stalin, pretty sure he would have offed millions no matter what his supposed politics were.  He could join the Log Cabin Republicans, he still would have killed 5 times as many people as Hitler.

Mao is really the only one you could argue was a pure Communist Ideological Purge.  Of course by himself he killed 7-8 times as many people as Hitler.  Quite the overachiever.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: S'mon on January 30, 2017, 04:11:02 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943315
The Cambodian killing fields were more racial then they were classist communist ideological killings.  They resembled Hitler's Genocide more than Stalin's Tyranny or Mao's Purges.

What different races were the killers and the victims? Everything I've read indicated it was rural/uneducated killing urban educated middle class, eg if you had glasses you were killed. Nothing racial.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: S'mon on January 30, 2017, 04:15:23 PM
Quote from: blackstone;942700
They want to combat fascism? REAL fascism? Go to where ISIS is crucifying Christians and burning them on crosses and make them stop. OR when people are murdered for not believing in the right god, because "Allah is great". Convert or die.

That's fascism.

Honestly, Islamic State & Al Qaeda have nothing to do with Fascism. The secular Syrian Arab Nationalists of the regime fighting against them have an ideology much more in common with Italian Fascism than do their Islamist enemies.

In Syria, the Fascists are the good guys.

(The secular Marxists of the Kurdish PKK, YPG et al are also the good guys. It's a tough neighbourhood.)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 30, 2017, 05:39:06 PM
Quote from: S'mon;943316
What different races were the killers and the victims? Everything I've read indicated it was rural/uneducated killing urban educated middle class, eg if you had glasses you were killed. Nothing racial.

Something like 15-20% of Cambodia was non-Khmer - Vietnamese, Chinese, Thai, Lao, Cham, etc. and there were campaigns to drive them out or exterminate them.  Definitely a "Cambodia for Khmer" thing going on.

Now, it can be argued that a lot of the Racial component was simply a side-effect of the Religious Pogroms typical of Communist Purges, and there were also a lot of Khmer killed as well, but even a lot of that was along some ancient tribal lines.

So, not as purely Ideological as say Mao.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on January 30, 2017, 09:37:06 PM
Fuckwits are fuckwits...their ideology is just a candy coating.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 30, 2017, 10:16:49 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;943363
Fuckwits are fuckwits...their ideology is just a candy coating.

This
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 31, 2017, 03:30:14 AM
Quote from: waltshumate;943252
But the left fucking excel at it.


Quote from: Doc Sammy;943256
I dunno, the Right is good at being fuckwits themselves.


You're both right.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 31, 2017, 03:54:43 AM
Actually while yes, venture capitalism is not an inherent element of fascism, competition is. Fascism is all about an allegory of life being a constant struggle, that gives the strong a chance to shine and rise, while the weak should fall to the bottom and follow. And yes, it's ideas of both cooperation within the shared national boundaries (or, as for Nazi Germany, racial ones) and also high emphasis on social Darwinism and internal struggle for position within the State, are contradictory, but since when contradicting points are exactly unique in ideologies.

Also, before we get into the usual ideological headcount - let me remind you that King Leopold's private enterprise in Congo, killed between 10 and 13 million people. And that's just Congo. And if you take a look at the political documentation regarding recognition of Congo Free State, by first US then European powers, opening the Congo "to the free market enterprise" was one of the important points in negotiating CFS's recognition. All the ideas in human history have blood on their hands.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943327
Something like 15-20% of Cambodia was non-Khmer - Vietnamese, Chinese, Thai, Lao, Cham, etc. and there were campaigns to drive them out or exterminate them.  Definitely a "Cambodia for Khmer" thing going on.

Now, it can be argued that a lot of the Racial component was simply a side-effect of the Religious Pogroms typical of Communist Purges, and there were also a lot of Khmer killed as well, but even a lot of that was along some ancient tribal lines.

So, not as purely Ideological as say Mao.

Indeed, there was a very anti-Vietnamese streak in the practice of ideology, which, ironically enough, considering that Khmer Rogue'd never gain power was it not for the bombardments of Cambodia to begin with, caused a Vietnamese intervention in the region that actually caused the fall of Pol Pot's regime. And I think it'll surprise nobody to remind that we have evidence that supports how US Special Forces were at the time of said invasion funneling weapons to Cambodia through Thailand trade route. Because nothing says taking care of mad regimes, like supporting them because they are in a war with a former enemy.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ulairi on January 31, 2017, 09:40:42 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943397
Actually while yes, venture capitalism is not an inherent element of fascism, competition is. Fascism is all about an allegory of life being a constant struggle, that gives the strong a chance to shine and rise, while the weak should fall to the bottom and follow. And yes, it's ideas of both cooperation within the shared national boundaries (or, as for Nazi Germany, racial ones) and also high emphasis on social Darwinism and internal struggle for position within the State, are contradictory, but since when contradicting points are exactly unique in ideologies.

Also, before we get into the usual ideological headcount - let me remind you that King Leopold's private enterprise in Congo, killed between 10 and 13 million people. And that's just Congo. And if you take a look at the political documentation regarding recognition of Congo Free State, by first US then European powers, opening the Congo "to the free market enterprise" was one of the important points in negotiating CFS's recognition. All the ideas in human history have blood on their hands.



Indeed, there was a very anti-Vietnamese streak in the practice of ideology, which, ironically enough, considering that Khmer Rogue'd never gain power was it not for the bombardments of Cambodia to begin with, caused a Vietnamese intervention in the region that actually caused the fall of Pol Pot's regime. And I think it'll surprise nobody to remind that we have evidence that supports how US Special Forces were at the time of said invasion funneling weapons to Cambodia through Thailand trade route. Because nothing says taking care of mad regimes, like supporting them because they are in a war with a former enemy.

I'm going to nitpit that the Congo Free State, while a "private venture" wasn't a capitalistic venture. Capitalism, in stark contrast to Marxism, doesn't require an authoritarian body to oversea it and enforce it.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 31, 2017, 11:42:46 AM
Quote from: Ulairi;943415
I'm going to nitpit that the Congo Free State, while a "private venture" wasn't a capitalistic venture. Capitalism, in stark contrast to Marxism, doesn't require an authoritarian body to oversea it and enforce it.

Yes, and there was no true socialism in USSR nor there ever existed a true Scotsman. He used free trade as a major argument for colonization and rallying support, he issued bonds and sold them en masse to private entities as said state, in all practice turning it into a publicly traded company (in fact, he even had investors), the profits from the state went directly to Leopold and bonds holders pockets, there were various other companies invited and granted special monopoly rights to given sectors in exchange of share of their profits, but yeah...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ulairi on January 31, 2017, 11:54:27 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943433
Yes, and there was no true socialism in USSR nor there ever existed a true Scotsman. He used free trade as a major argument for colonization and rallying support, he issued bonds and sold them en masse to private entities as said state, in all practice turning it into a publicly traded company (in fact, he even had investors), the profits from the state went directly to Leopold and bonds holders pockets, there were various other companies invited and granted special monopoly rights to given sectors in exchange of share of their profits, but yeah...

Socialism in it's academic sense even still requires an authoritarian body to oversea it. Capitalism, a term I loathe being it is a term created by socalists, let's change it to market based economics versus non-market based economics.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 31, 2017, 12:08:38 PM
I'd rather put up with a few rich assholes, than wait in line to get my bread ration.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 31, 2017, 12:39:11 PM
Quote from: Ulairi;943438
Socialism in it's academic sense even still requires an authoritarian body to oversea it. Capitalism, a term I loathe being it is a term created by socalists, let's change it to market based economics versus non-market based economics.

1) That is not true for the Bakuninian and Proudhonian traditions of socialism.

2) The vast amount of those deaths were due to the drive for rubber, which was entirely because the international markets suddenly exploded with demand. Rubber was the oil of the times, so to speak. And the Congoese were introduced into a....rough and unfair, but a system of commerce and money.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 31, 2017, 01:12:21 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;943440
I'd rather put up with a few rich assholes, than wait in line to get my bread ration.

Why choose?
American Capitalis...err Corporate Socialism keeps going the way it's going, you'll get both. :D
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 31, 2017, 01:29:53 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943450
Why choose?
American Capitalis...err Corporate Socialism keeps going the way it's going, you'll get both. :D

So it's not even crony capitalism anymore, it's corporate socialism?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 31, 2017, 01:34:30 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943455
So it's not even crony capitalism anymore, it's corporate socialism?

Yeah, Crony Capitalism, sure.  Corporate Socialism or Corporate Welfare tends to sting the people who delude themselves that we have free markets more I've found.

If that triggers you, because it's insulting to socialists, whatever.  

The point is if you work at Wal-Mart you're practically in a breadline already.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 31, 2017, 01:50:35 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943456
Yeah, Crony Capitalism, sure.  Corporate Socialism or Corporate Welfare tends to sting the people who delude themselves that we have free markets more I've found.

If that triggers you, because it's insulting to socialists, whatever.  

The point is if you work at Wal-Mart you're practically in a breadline already.

It does not as much "trigger" me, as makes me roll my eyes at the desperate newspeak trying to paint all the world's problems on "zhe Reds", despite having fuck-all to do with it in theory and practice - an equivalent of an off-hand drop how there was nothing socialistic about USSR, it was all State Capitalism. Or saying that Apocalypse World is totally a classic RPG, because you play a character. I mean really, Stalinism, Maoism, -and- Walmart?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 31, 2017, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943456
The point is if you work at Wal-Mart you're practically in a breadline already.

Since at least some Walllymarts have provisions in their HR departments for employees to apply for food stamps, I'd remove "practically" from that sentence.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 31, 2017, 02:49:25 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943460
It does not as much "trigger" me, as makes me roll my eyes at the desperate newspeak trying to paint all the world's problems on "zhe Reds"
Well, that wasn't what I was doing, so cool your furry tits.

The point was, half the US isn't very far from a breadline (that's one of the reasons Trump won the election), so if you think our current flavor of Capitalism (whatever you want to call it) is that much better than the horrors of Socialism (whatever you think that means)...got news for ya.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on January 31, 2017, 02:52:38 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;943477
Since at least some Walllymarts have provisions in their HR departments for employees to apply for food stamps, I'd remove "practically" from that sentence.

Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with the Corporate Socialism or Corporate Welfare tags that has Alf frothing at the mouth.  Americans who are deadset against other citizens getting support from the State or Feds, are ignorant of the titanic levels of Federal and State support that allows the largest corporations to even exist.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 31, 2017, 03:30:14 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943478
Well, that wasn't what I was doing, so cool your furry tits.

The point was, half the US isn't very far from a breadline (that's one of the reasons Trump won the election), so if you think our current flavor of Capitalism (whatever you want to call it) is that much better than the horrors of Socialism (whatever you think that means)...got news for ya.

Hey man, don't get me wrong - I know exactly what you're talking about. Right now half the requests for income certification I receive, are for them to apply for government family welfare. And they are in middle earnings bracket for Poland. Fuck that noise with a spanner, that's the government subsidies that nobody's suddenly against.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 31, 2017, 05:01:51 PM
Hyper-capitalism has failed America. Capitalism is decent in and of itself, but only if you have a nice dose of democratic socialism to contain it.

Socialism and Communism are NOT the same thing. North Korea is a communist country. Ireland is a socialist country, and there is a huge fucking difference between North Korea and Ireland. I'd love to live in Ireland, but would never even consider setting foot in North Korea even if I was able to.

I support socialism but abhor communism.

The United States is becoming an utter shithole because of our fanatical devotion to unregulated capitalism. Reagan fucked us over with that by deregulation and busting the unions, and all of his successors have only made things worse. We're the most powerful and most wealthy nation on Earth yet we refuse to provide basic healthcare for our citizens and we still practice barbaric forms of punishment such as the death penalty and life without parole (which in my opinion is worse than the death penalty).

Fuck this country. If I had the money, I would've moved to Ireland the moment Trump got elected. My ancestors came to this land for a better life, and all they have found is more poverty, toil, and misery. My maternal great-grandfather, John Phillips, was a proud Union Democrat and a member of the UMWA, back when unions had actual power in this country and the Democratic Party still cared about the working class instead of pandering to the SJW vote and appeasing their corporate overlords. My paternal great-grandmother Clara Colbird, was a social activist in West Virginia during the 1950's and 1960's, who advocated for actual change that benefitted society in the long run.

Now with a crackpot like Trump in office, they're both rolling in their graves.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on January 31, 2017, 06:59:08 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943502
Socialism and Communism are NOT the same thing. North Korea is a communist country. Ireland is a socialist country, and there is a huge fucking difference between North Korea and Ireland. I'd love to live in Ireland, but would never even consider setting foot in North Korea even if I was able to.

What gave you the idea the Republic of Ireland is a Socialist country?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on January 31, 2017, 07:25:23 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;943520
What gave you the idea the Republic of Ireland is a Socialist country?

Universal Healthcare
Subsidized public education
Better social programs than the United States, generally speaking

They may not be as socialist as say Sweden or Norway, but they're more socialist than the Plutocratic United States
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Omega on January 31, 2017, 10:23:05 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;943160
There's a scenario, I think it's in the Beyond The Supernatural main book, where the characters are all preteen girls caught up in a situation with ghosts and monsters and stuff. It's kinda played for humor "Ohmigawd Becky, look at his face!"


Correct. Its rather out of character for the RPG and is played for humour. Theres a couple of others.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 31, 2017, 10:41:43 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943450
Why choose?
American Capitalis...err Corporate Socialism keeps going the way it's going, you'll get both. :D


There's a lot of truth to that. There's going to be corruption and cronyism and back room dealing in any and every system.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 01, 2017, 03:43:59 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943455
So it's not even crony capitalism anymore, it's corporate socialism?


It's both.

Corporate welfare has gone insane. Its out of control, but out of view for most people.  It's a "free market" for small business, but big business is wearing a golden diaper thanks to lobbyists working the Washington gravy train.

And as others have pointed out, we have numerous mega-corps who only exist because the welfare system supports the minimum wage employees. Most American consumers have no idea about the hidden costs of the so-called cheap goods they buy.

But don't worry. I'm sure everything will be fine and totally not blow up the world's economy...again.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 01, 2017, 04:13:14 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;943572
It's both.

Corporate welfare has gone insane. Its out of control, but out of view for most people.  It's a "free market" for small business, but big business is wearing a golden diaper thanks to lobbyists working the Washington gravy train.

And as others have pointed out, we have numerous mega-corps who only exist because the welfare system supports the minimum wage employees. Most American consumers have no idea about the hidden costs of the so-called cheap goods they buy.

But don't worry. I'm sure everything will be fine and totally not blow up the world's economy...again.

The problem is, that's exactly why I'm worried - because nowadays, when finally another bubble bursts and corporations play the game of passing the bill down the road, US is not the only one left holding the check, thanks to the world-spanning trade deals. Look - I don't wish for Trump to leave your country a wasteland, because that'll only deepen the problems we already have, especially in Eastern Europe. But he doesn't look like the guy who'll genuinely tackle on the root of the problem - the power of the corporations and lobbyists, because he is one of people both benefited by the current system, and already shown signals of actually amplifying the problem with his cabinet picks, the general saber-rattling won't help to get international cooperation to tackle the corporate problem (and in a day and age where, theoretically, it's perfectly legal to just move corporate HQ to Luxembourg and abuse the tax haven there, we need an international cooperation to park a few tanks' worth in the most notable tax havens, using them for once for the benefit of the world) and the general message of deregulation (which I admit, in case of US, the regulations tend to pick on the smaller guy more, but that's also because your regulatory agencies seem unable to muster the manpower and legal resources to tackle on the big guys - and thanks to before mentioned trade deals, stopping other nations to look at American corporations hands too, because that'd create "unfair advantages in local markets for competitors" - sure, TPP was killed recently, but it wasn't very alive even before Obama left the office). All of which is turning your country into less of a nation-state and more into a loose federation of joint business ventures, who'll occasionally throw a scrap, preferably with common taxpayer's money, to placate the masses.

And we have a dangerously similar set of problems in Poland, most importantly, the state's reluctance to put higher business and wealth taxes (though to be fair, banking and supermarkets were recently smacked with new taxes), while at the same time, subsidizing from welfare money the starvation wages paid to half of our working population, which is working for minimum wage or less (thanks to some tricks introduced in our laws straight out of Reaganomics). That has finally started to change, thanks to rising of the minimum wage, but right now, that's what scares me - because the two main options on political market in Poland, are very similar as in the US - right-wing populist business puppets versus neoliberal business puppets with extra strings. The latter are disconnected from reality, shrinking middle-class which thinks that the trickle-down system still works because they have their toes wet in a puddle, the former are ultimately flirting with neofascistic policies, from Hungary's state-mandated discrimination laws and practices against homeless, to Poland's current campaign in order to enforce a full abortion ban and even contraception restrictions, and state media's absolutely brutal, both anti-refugee and anti-opposition manipulation. Which also leads to the extreme right, the genuine open fascists and nazis, also grow in power under the auspices of the ruling party, for whom they are temporary (as no politician can ultimately negotiate with radicals) allies - and we have seen proof that the current government, at least on the local, boroughs level, have been directly supporting them, with media exposure and money.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on February 01, 2017, 05:34:15 AM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943522
Universal Healthcare
Subsidized public education
Better social programs than the United States, generally speaking

They may not be as socialist as say Sweden or Norway, but they're more socialist than the Plutocratic United States

So is the United Kingdom a socialist country then?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 01, 2017, 06:18:53 AM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943522
Universal Healthcare
Subsidized public education
Better social programs than the United States, generally speaking

They may not be as socialist as say Sweden or Norway, but they're more socialist than the Plutocratic United States

That's actually not as much socialism, as mixed economy, or a welfare state. US is also a mixed economy, just shifted much more noticably into the free market territory of mixed economies, while European ones, have to a lesser or greater degree, flirted with socialistic instruments and measures, but no state has abolished private property nor guarantees either work or sustenance to all of it's citizens, key features of socialism.

Communism, for that note, does not exist in North Korea, but actually, socialism, as socialism is the term for the society that has abolished private property but not yet reached the Utopian stage. Of course, the degree to which NK is actually socialistic and not a quasi-monarchic state, is much debatable, but the trappings are technically there (even if Juche was considered a red-haired, no pun intended, stepchild of the socialistic ideologies on par with Hoxhianism and Posadism).
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on February 01, 2017, 06:57:35 AM
When I say socialism, I mean the mixed market kind they have in Europe, not the property-abolishing kind they had in the Soviet Union.

Thought I'd might clear that up a little bit.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on February 01, 2017, 01:19:23 PM
Quote from: doc sammy;943502
hyper-capitalism has failed america. Capitalism is decent in and of itself, but only if you have a nice dose of democratic socialism to contain it.

Socialism and communism are not the same thing. North korea is a communist country. Ireland is a socialist country, and there is a huge fucking difference between north korea and ireland. I'd love to live in ireland, but would never even consider setting foot in north korea even if i was able to.

I support socialism but abhor communism.

The united states is becoming an utter shithole because of our fanatical devotion to unregulated capitalism. Reagan fucked us over with that by deregulation and busting the unions, and all of his successors have only made things worse. We're the most powerful and most wealthy nation on earth yet we refuse to provide basic healthcare for our citizens and we still practice barbaric forms of punishment such as the death penalty and life without parole (which in my opinion is worse than the death penalty).

Fuck this country. If i had the money, i would've moved to ireland the moment trump got elected. My ancestors came to this land for a better life, and all they have found is more poverty, toil, and misery. My maternal great-grandfather, john phillips, was a proud union democrat and a member of the umwa, back when unions had actual power in this country and the democratic party still cared about the working class instead of pandering to the sjw vote and appeasing their corporate overlords. My paternal great-grandmother clara colbird, was a social activist in west virginia during the 1950's and 1960's, who advocated for actual change that benefitted society in the long run.

Now with a crackpot like trump in office, they're both rolling in their graves.



al gore says...

[attach=config]679[/attach]
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on February 01, 2017, 01:30:25 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943594
When I say socialism, I mean the mixed market kind they have in Europe, not the property-abolishing kind they had in the Soviet Union.

Thought I'd might clear that up a little bit.

If you do come to Ireland and need to make use of the free socialist healthcare at the ER make sure you bring 100 euro with you.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on February 01, 2017, 01:41:28 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943594
When I say socialism, I mean the mixed market kind they have in Europe, not the property-abolishing kind they had in the Soviet Union.

Thought I'd might clear that up a little bit.

Wait a minute...

You were born in '93...

OH SHIT! You're a Millennial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials)!

That explains A LOT!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]680[/ATTACH]
(rubs hand together in anticipation)

You, like the rest of your entitled generation, are now...MINE, snowflake!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on February 01, 2017, 07:48:13 PM
Quote from: blackstone;943626
Wait a minute...

You were born in '93...

OH SHIT! You're a Millennial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials)!

That explains A LOT!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]680[/ATTACH]
(rubs hand together in anticipation)

You, like the rest of your entitled generation, are now...MINE, snowflake!

Hey, I ain't no snowflake and I am not like other Millennials. In fact, I kind of dislike my own generation, to be honest.

And walt, if I can manage to move to Ireland, I'll keep the 100 Euros in mind. Thanks for the heads up, bro.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on February 01, 2017, 07:49:01 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;943625
If you do come to Ireland and need to make use of the free socialist healthcare at the ER make sure you bring 100 euro with you.


My ex is from Northern Ireland and her family still lives there.  Not quite the same, but her nephew was having extremely violent psychological breakdowns and harming his mother, his brother, and other children.  He was also looking up shit on the internet about how to kill people and kill yourself.  Wrote and drew some fucked up shit, too.  Kid was like 12.

It took seven months to get this kid professional help.

Thing about Socialized Medicine?  Now every slob that could have sucked it up, doesn't.  Little Johnny having a tantrum over not getting a toy?  Now mommy wants to make sure he's not got the Autistimis (From the Vaxeems, of course).

Not for nothing, but the military has Socialized health care.  That means everyone with a sniffle or an itchy butthole is in the clinic every day.  FFS, when I had some weird PTSD-related insomnia that was damaging my work performance and personal life- my Platoon sergeant begged them to find me something, because when I went they told me it'd be 3 months before I got help.  To get some of my surgeries, I had to wait months on end.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on February 01, 2017, 07:51:49 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;943674
My ex is from Northern Ireland and her family still lives there.  Not quite the same, but her nephew was having extremely violent psychological breakdowns and harming his mother, his brother, and other children.  He was also looking up shit on the internet about how to kill people and kill yourself.  Wrote and drew some fucked up shit, too.  Kid was like 12.

It took seven months to get this kid professional help.

Thing about Socialized Medicine?  Now every slob that could have sucked it up, doesn't.  Little Johnny having a tantrum over not getting a toy?  Now mommy wants to make sure he's not got the Autistimis (From the Vaxeems, of course).

Well, nothing is perfect. But to be fair, our hyper-capitalist healthcare system in America is just as shitty if not worse.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on February 01, 2017, 07:56:40 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943675
Well, nothing is perfect. But to be fair, our hyper-capitalist healthcare system in America is just as shitty if not worse.

A good chunk of the problem is that when people are hospitalized, they don't look at their bill.  You'd be shocked at the shit they can tack on there.  Trust me, I know- I work in a hospital.  I've seen those gauze rolls that cost $30.00 a pop.  For some fucking reason.  

Any time you get hospitalized, call someone who knows their shit and review your bill.  You can contest it.  

And the overwhelming majority of what puts people in the hospital is stupid shit and not taking care of yourself.  One lady I had to deal with a few days ago has a series of pelvic fractures and hip fractures.  She's got to be pushing 400 fucking pounds.  She does not cook meals, and her son is nearly as fat as she is.  These fucking people order a pizza, Chinese, or Jimmy's every fucking day.  I'm not kidding.

TL;DR- over half of the people I encounter, I have very little sympathy for- at least not to the degree where I'm thinking, Oh, you poor thing- you're going to pay so much!  No one deserves this! No, asshole.  You fucking deserve it.  Maybe paying that fucking bill for the rest of your life will have you cutting down on the bacon cheeseburgers, cigarettes, and booze.  Maybe paying to get your skull put back together will teach you to wear a fucking helmet on your bike.  Maybe having to pay to put some kid's fucking jaw back together will teach you to supervise your children.

And I apologize.  I sound angry.  Because it legitimately does infuriate me.  Socialized health care would be great, but people do stupid shit and this is why we can't have nice things.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Elfdart on February 01, 2017, 09:56:09 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;942590
I bet everyone of the fuckers decrying  facism in rpgs were cheering on  the uniformed and masked thugs marching and smashing windows during the inauguration.


Are you worried they'll suckerpunch you too?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 01, 2017, 10:03:47 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943673
Hey, I ain't no snowflake and I am not like other Millennials.
Every snowflake makes the claim that they are different...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 01, 2017, 10:07:46 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;943676
A good chunk of the problem is that when people are hospitalized, they don't look at their bill.  You'd be shocked at the shit they can tack on there.  Trust me, I know- I work in a hospital.  I've seen those gauze rolls that cost $30.00 a pop.  For some fucking reason.  

Any time you get hospitalized, call someone who knows their shit and review your bill.  You can contest it.  

And the overwhelming majority of what puts people in the hospital is stupid shit and not taking care of yourself.  One lady I had to deal with a few days ago has a series of pelvic fractures and hip fractures.  She's got to be pushing 400 fucking pounds.  She does not cook meals, and her son is nearly as fat as she is.  These fucking people order a pizza, Chinese, or Jimmy's every fucking day.  I'm not kidding.

TL;DR- over half of the people I encounter, I have very little sympathy for- at least not to the degree where I'm thinking, Oh, you poor thing- you're going to pay so much!  No one deserves this! No, asshole.  You fucking deserve it.  Maybe paying that fucking bill for the rest of your life will have you cutting down on the bacon cheeseburgers, cigarettes, and booze.  Maybe paying to get your skull put back together will teach you to wear a fucking helmet on your bike.  Maybe having to pay to put some kid's fucking jaw back together will teach you to supervise your children.

And I apologize.  I sound angry.  Because it legitimately does infuriate me.  Socialized health care would be great, but people do stupid shit and this is why we can't have nice things.
A lot of that comes from CMS dominating the payment plans. CMS won't fully reimburse for most things, so the hospitals just up the price to compensate. So long as insurance is doing the paying, it's fine (for the patient) because they are in on the game. Those few that pay out-of-pocket usually get hefty discounts. And then there are those that don't pay and have no intention of every paying and they fuck it up for everyone by transferring the cost back to the hospital which then has to raise costs on those that pay (which then goes back to the CMS issue and more inflation).
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on February 01, 2017, 10:32:19 PM
Quote from: Elfdart;943684
Are you worried they'll suckerpunch you too?


I mean, it's not like liberals are a bastion of tolerance right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XImz4b2KtAw
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Elfdart on February 01, 2017, 10:43:18 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;942781
That's actually the name of a real Chicago street gang, the name was chosen back in the early 1950's when gay meant happy and had nothing to do with homosexuality.


Do you have any idea how stupid you look, making a claim like that? Check out the movie Bringing Up Baby, where Cary Grant loses his suit and wears Katherine Hepburn's robe. When she asks why he's wearing her clothes he says "I was thinking about turning gay!"

It came out in 1939.


Quote from: Rincewind1;942805
Aaaaand back to pants-on-heads, "Storygames are a ploy to kill West" content :rolleyes:


Because according to Pundy, heroism only appears in "western civilization". He also thinks breathing is unique to the West, and people will stop breathing because the "regressive left" wants Teh Mooslums to take over the world because...

It's like Alex Jones' rants, only not as coherent, and without the lizard people.

Quote from: Ulairi;943310
If Fascism is bad because Hitler was a fascist and he killed a lot of people. Then, should we ask about collectivist and how games fight those? Because Marxism is responsible for more death than fascism ever dreamed to be.


A much more interesting question "we" should ask (and one more pertinent to this thread) is why you've never once opened a real history book and as a corollary, why you wouldn't know a real history book if an actual historian thumped you over the head with it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943315
True, Communists killed more people than Fascists.  But...

The Cambodian killing fields were more racial then they were classist communist ideological killings.  They resembled Hitler's Genocide more than Stalin's Tyranny or Mao's Purges.

Speaking of Stalin, pretty sure he would have offed millions no matter what his supposed politics were.  He could join the Log Cabin Republicans, he still would have killed 5 times as many people as Hitler.

Mao is really the only one you could argue was a pure Communist Ideological Purge.  Of course by himself he killed 7-8 times as many people as Hitler.  Quite the overachiever.


See above. You also might want to brush up on basic math skills.

In a thread a couple of years ago about how useful it is to have "realism" in FRPGs, I declared the following:

Quote
I have yet to meet anyone in gaming who really is as much of an expert on physics, history, biology or any other subject as they want you to think they are. If anything, gamers tend to be less well-informed on these topics.


This times ten.

Back on topic:

The whole notion that a pastime like gaming needs to take a stand on real-life political issues is the kind of horseshit Phil Hendrie used to spoof on his show, or one of the farcical non-sequitur questions Stuttering John would ask celebrities in public, like the time he asked Lauren Bacall (who was attending the Oscars) what she thought of the O.J. Simpson verdict. At least that kind of stunt is meant to be silly, and the WTF? looks on the victims' faces are sometimes priceless. Asking a gamer how their game fights fascism is like asking an NFL player how his sport fights chicken pox.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on February 02, 2017, 07:12:49 AM
Quote from: Elfdart;943693

The whole notion that a pastime like gaming needs to take a stand on real-life political issues is the kind of horseshit Phil Hendrie used to spoof on his show, or one of the farcical non-sequitur questions Stuttering John would ask celebrities in public, like the time he asked Lauren Bacall (who was attending the Oscars) what she thought of the O.J. Simpson verdict. At least that kind of stunt is meant to be silly, and the WTF? looks on the victims' faces are sometimes priceless. Asking a gamer how their game fights fascism is like asking an NFL player how his sport fights chicken pox.

NEWS FLASH!

I agree with Elfdart.

Holy shit...We do have some common ground.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on February 02, 2017, 07:15:12 AM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943673
Hey, I ain't no snowflake and I am not like other Millennials. In fact, I kind of dislike my own generation, to be honest.

And walt, if I can manage to move to Ireland, I'll keep the 100 Euros in mind. Thanks for the heads up, bro.


Crap...You didn't bite...Ah well...

I respect that.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]682[/ATTACH]
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on February 02, 2017, 07:43:42 AM
Quote from: blackstone;943716
Crap...You didn't bite...Ah well...

I respect that.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]682[/ATTACH]

One thing we can both agree on is that Millennials suck.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on February 02, 2017, 08:39:24 AM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943717
One thing we can both agree on is that Millennials suck.

Indeed...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ulairi on February 02, 2017, 09:55:36 AM
Quote from: Elfdart;943693
A much more interesting question "we" should ask (and one more pertinent to this thread) is why you've never once opened a real history book and as a corollary, why you wouldn't know a real history book if an actual historian thumped you over the head with it.

.

Uh-huh. You don't have any actual points to make (otherwises...might have made them) but you keep being you. I'm sure you wow them when you go into work at the local coffee shop.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on February 02, 2017, 11:56:21 AM
Quote from: Elfdart;943684
Are you worried they'll suckerpunch you too?


No I faced down a bunch of that type of scum when they were frog marching  around Miami
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on February 02, 2017, 12:03:46 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943673
Hey, I ain't no snowflake and I am not like other Millennials. In fact, I kind of dislike my own generation, to be honest.

And walt, if I can manage to move to Ireland, I'll keep the 100 Euros in mind. Thanks for the heads up, bro.

Tell that to someone who hasn't got the 100 euros, when you get to that socialist utopia, I sure it will be a great comfort to them
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on February 02, 2017, 12:10:54 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;943734
Tell that to someone who hasn't got the 100 euros, when you get tothat socialist utopia.


I never said that Ireland was a socialist utopia, I said they had more socialistic programs than America (as do most European countries), which has been slowly marching towards a hyper-capitalist dystopia since Reagan got into power in the 1980s. Capitalism itself is not bad, but like anything, moderation is key to making it work.

I don't want free healthcare, as that is just ridiculous, but reasonably affordable healthcare is good for me. And if I did move, I'd get a job and work my ass off, even if I could leech off the system, I would not because it is shameful and I don't like having to do that.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 02, 2017, 12:12:46 PM
Yeah, poor people not dying from disease is a truly hilarious idea.

It's funny. I have working class parents, both with a terminal disease, both going on 10+ years with their respective conditions (and if you think that means they ain't truly terminal, well - my father's leg looks like Death Star in Return of the Jedi, if you catch my drift), and both'd most likely be dead if we were living in the Land of Opportunity rather than European shithole, or be sinking in debt even more than we were.

Superior civilization my arse.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on February 02, 2017, 12:29:58 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;943674
My ex is from Northern Ireland and her family still lives there.  Not quite the same, but her nephew was having extremely violent psychological breakdowns and harming his mother, his brother, and other children.  He was also looking up shit on the internet about how to kill people and kill yourself.  Wrote and drew some fucked up shit, too.  Kid was like 12.

It took seven months to get this kid professional help.

There are no secure mental facilites in NI  so am surprised he did not end up in Hydebank a youth prison . If he had been an adult he most likely would have ended up in Maghaberry a maximum security prison.  Maghaberry has recently been judged to be the most dangerous prison in th the UK and there has been a string of suicides by men who did receive needed mental healthcare.  Of course this sort of thing should not happen in a socialist utopia like the UK.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on February 02, 2017, 01:03:24 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943738
Yeah, poor people not dying from disease is a truly hilarious idea.

It's funny. I have working class parents, both with a terminal disease, both going on 10+ years with their respective conditions (and if you think that means they ain't truly terminal, well - my father's leg looks like Death Star in Return of the Jedi, if you catch my drift), and both'd most likely be dead if we were living in the Land of Opportunity rather than European shithole, or be sinking in debt even more than we were.


Paid for by all that free money from countries who actually contribute to the EU
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 02, 2017, 01:37:47 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;943743
Paid for by all that free money from countries who actually contribute to the EU

Both of them had over 10 years of work experience, related national health insurance contributions, and were hospitalized and diagnosed before 2004, so...not really. So hey - a 90's Eastern Europe state managed to figure this shit out, in middle of the worst imaginable economical turmoil in it's history, congratulations on still being behind.

Also, the EU got in return a huge market and millions of one of the cheapest workforce in Europe, especially by average education / labour costs ratio, so yeah, no business is crying over the deal.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on February 02, 2017, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943747
Both of them had over 10 years of work experience, related national health insurance contributions, and were hospitalized and diagnosed before 2004, so...not really. So hey - a 90's Eastern Europe state managed to figure this shit out, in middle of the worst imaginable economical turmoil in it's history, congratulations on still being behind.

Also, the EU got in return a huge market and millions of one of the cheapest workforce in Europe, especially by average education / labour costs ratio, so yeah, no business is crying over the deal.

If Poland got everything figured out in the 90's why do so many Poles decide to migrate and why does Poland need such vast amounts of money from th Fourth Reich, sorry I mean the EU.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 02, 2017, 05:15:27 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;943771
If Poland got everything figured out in the 90's why do so many Poles decide to migrate and why does Poland need such vast amounts of money from th Fourth Reich, sorry I mean the EU.

lol, what country in the EU isnt fantastically in debt to other countries in the EU?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on February 02, 2017, 05:30:58 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943781
lol, what country in the EU isnt fantastically in debt to other countries in the EU?


This is true. And for the record, I never said that Ireland or the UK was a "socialist utopia", just that the USA under Trump is becoming a dystopian shithole and that Trump is finishing what Reagan started, and that is a bad thing.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on February 02, 2017, 06:06:36 PM
Quote from: waltshumate;943740
There are no secure mental facilites in NI  so am surprised he did not end up in Hydebank a youth prison . If he had been an adult he most likely would have ended up in Maghaberry a maximum security prison.  Maghaberry has recently been judged to be the most dangerous prison in th the UK and there has been a string of suicides by men who did receive needed mental healthcare.  Of course this sort of thing should not happen in a socialist utopia like the UK.

He had to get 'reviewed' by like four different bureaucracies before he could sit down with a fucking professional.  His mother sat in interviews and showed them bruises, showed them videos of him lashing out, showed them drawings of him stabbing his mother with a spear (with the devil coming out of his mouth), and all kinds of other fucked-up shit.  The school administration did the same thing, and it still took seven months to put him in front of a professional (that recommended him to another).

I've dealt with a lot of damaged people, even though that isn't my line of work.  Despite with the other guy says- you can get a kid psychiatric care in the US if it's that serious in about a week or so.  Especially if he's beating the shit out of other kids and saying fucked-up shit (thank the school shooters for that one, I guess).
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 02, 2017, 09:16:05 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943781
lol, what country in the EU isnt fantastically in debt to other countries in the EU?

What country isn't fantastically in debt in general.

Quote from: waltshumate;943771
If Poland got everything figured out in the 90's why do so many Poles decide to migrate and why does Poland need such vast amounts of money from th Fourth Reich, sorry I mean the EU.

Gee, I don't know, maybe because socialized healthcare isn't some titanic pipe dream that requires John Galt to descend from libertarian heaven to lead the people through it's construction, but can be achieved at costs that obviously so far have not broken many countries far, far poorer than US.

Sure, it's not perfect, and there are perhaps longer lines to wait...but you also don't have people saving up to afford a colonoscopy. And we've got cheaper medicine.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on February 03, 2017, 01:23:38 AM
A free society depends on preserving the right to live, liberty, and property, which in turn means equal access to medical care, legal representation, and business opportunities. Problem is none of those are free, and I fear any policies will always favor one group over another no matter how egalitarian they are.

So considering these values are already established, we really need to start treating government as a technology rather than ideology, and find practical ways to make access to these rights as egalitarian as possible.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on February 03, 2017, 01:32:55 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;943831
A free society depends on preserving the right to live, liberty, and property, which in turn means equal access to medical care, legal representation, and business opportunities. Problem is none of those are free, and I fear any policies will always favor one group over another no matter how egalitarian they are.

So considering these values are already established, we really need to start treating government as a technology rather than ideology, and find practical ways to make access to these rights as egalitarian as possible.

This I can agree with for the most part, actually.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 03, 2017, 02:09:11 AM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;943717
One thing we can both agree on is that Millennials suck.


Every generation sucks.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 03, 2017, 02:24:23 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;943315


The Cambodian killing fields were more racial then they were classist communist ideological killings.  They resembled Hitler's Genocide more than Stalin's Tyranny or Mao's Purges.


I'm no expert but I visited Cambodia recently and read a couple of books on the Khmer Rouge and their genocide. It most definitely was an idealogical driven genocide. Pol Pot had a half-baked idea about the indigenous peasants living a purer, more communal and socialist existence and to achieve that again was going to require the wholesale destruction of the educated intellectual class and any Western influence (all the while being driven by Marxism and French radicalism? No one said it had to make sense).

Once they started though it developed its own momentum due to paranoia and some kind of madness they started to just kill people nearly at random. I read a book on the life and trial of Duch, the infamous head torturer of the S-21 prison camp and the handful of survivors from the camp and not once did he bring up any ethnic or racial motivation, he was a true blue Marxist-Leninist through and through.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 03, 2017, 06:25:00 AM
Quote from: Elfdart;943693


Because according to Pundy, heroism only appears in "western civilization".


No, heroism appears in various other civilizations as well.

Where it does not appear is in the 'culture' generated by post-modernism.  That's what's so abhorrent about it. It's not really a cultural quality for the most part, it's a human quality. Only incredibly diseased cultures and decadent civilizations on the verge of collapse have no concept of heroism.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ulairi on February 03, 2017, 11:03:45 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;943853
No, heroism appears in various other civilizations as well.

Where it does not appear is in the 'culture' generated by post-modernism.  That's what's so abhorrent about it. It's not really a cultural quality for the most part, it's a human quality. Only incredibly diseased cultures and decadent civilizations on the verge of collapse have no concept of heroism.

No. You're wrong! It's obvious you only think western civilizations can be heroic. That's why you released a heroic RPG based on Indian mythology. You Nazi!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 03, 2017, 12:34:31 PM
The USA lacking universal healthcare is not defensible.

Its insane, and we could afford it by slashing through the medical bureaucracy.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;943831
So considering these values are already established, we really need to start treating government as a technology rather than ideology, and find practical ways to make access to these rights as egalitarian as possible.


Gov't as technology instead of ideology?

That's an excellent idea.


Quote from: Doc Sammy;943784
This is true. And for the record, I never said that Ireland or the UK was a "socialist utopia", just that the USA under Trump is becoming a dystopian shithole and that Trump is finishing what Reagan started, and that is a bad thing.


Trump won because Team Red preached the USA under Obama had become "a dystopian shithole", but now Team Blue wants to return to power for those yummy lobbyist dollars so they are peddling the same shit from the flip side. I guess that's their idea of recycling.

Don't buy the shit from either team.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 03, 2017, 12:36:18 PM
I figured out how RPGs can fight fascism!!

New Rule Zero: if you voted for the same candidate as your GM, gain +10% XP. If everyone at the table has identical political views, increase to +20% XP.

Viola!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on February 03, 2017, 01:18:26 PM
Quote from: Ulairi;943877
No. You're wrong! It's obvious you only think western civilizations can be heroic. That's why you released a heroic RPG based on Indian mythology. You Nazi!


I was about to say, Indian culture does feature a lot of over-the-top hero stories.  



Is India just plagued with roving gangs of assholes in Off-Road vehicles?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Morrius on February 03, 2017, 05:11:10 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;943853
No, heroism appears in various other civilizations as well.

Where it does not appear is in the 'culture' generated by post-modernism.  That's what's so abhorrent about it. It's not really a cultural quality for the most part, it's a human quality. Only incredibly diseased cultures and decadent civilizations on the verge of collapse have no concept of heroism.

The Ctrl-Left does have an idea of heroism. It's just that their idea of dragons to slay aren't real, so they make some up to fight instead.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 03, 2017, 05:52:40 PM
Quote from: Morrius;943952
The Ctrl-Left does have an idea of heroism. It's just that their idea of dragons to slay aren't real, so they make some up to fight instead.

Yeah, nothing says heroism in face of true foes, like fighting the ever encroaching, endless and ever present masses of Marxists. :rolleyes:
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: noman on February 03, 2017, 06:07:02 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943964
Yeah, nothing says heroism in face of true foes, like fighting the ever encroaching, endless and ever present masses of Marxists. :rolleyes:


Actually, yes.  Yes it does.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: waltshumate on February 03, 2017, 06:11:21 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943812
What country isn't fantastically in debt in general.



Gee, I don't know, maybe because socialized healthcare isn't some titanic pipe dream that requires John Galt to descend from libertarian heaven to lead the people through it's construction, but can be achieved at costs that obviously so far have not broken many countries far, far poorer than US.

Sure, it's not perfect, and there are perhaps longer lines to wait...but you also don't have people saving up to afford a colonoscopy. And we've got cheaper medicine.


It has not broken Poland because Poland is so heavily subsidised by Western Europe. like every other Eastern European country that were plundered by your socialist brothers for 50 years.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 03, 2017, 06:15:23 PM
Quote from: noman;943968
Actually, yes.  Yes it does.

Sure - better check that fridge. One's hiding behind the mayo.

Quote from: waltshumate;943970
It has not broken Poland because Poland is so heavily subsidised by Western Europe. like every other Eastern European country that were plundered by your socialist brothers for 50 years.

Sure, sure, we just lie on our backs and let that sweeeeet EU money roll in. The 13 years before we entered EU since the fall of communism count for nothing neither. And as for plunder - your corporation sure didn't have any qualms to calm their appetites for privatisation for pennies  in '88 - '92 neither.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: noman on February 03, 2017, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943972
Sure - better check that fridge. One's hiding behind the mayo.


This is silly.  My fridge isn't large enough to hide a Marxist.  :D
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 03, 2017, 06:31:06 PM
That's what They want you to think.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: noman on February 03, 2017, 06:44:50 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;943978
That's what They want you to think.


They want me to think a number of things.  For example: Marxism isn't an actual political force within modern American politics, and its agenda isn't harmful to Classical Liberal or modern Conservative views of individual liberty and free market capitalism; It's just a Boogeyman created by the Right.

But I resist.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 03, 2017, 06:47:22 PM
Quote from: noman;943981
They want me to think a number of things.  For example: Marxism isn't an actual political force within modern American politics, and its agenda isn't harmful to Classical Liberal or modern Conservative views of individual liberty and free market capitalism; It's just a Boogeyman created by the Right.

But I resist.

Well played.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 03, 2017, 08:11:24 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;943894

Trump won because


...most people didn't vote. Which inevitably probably includes 90% of the people now freaking out about everything he does and says.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 03, 2017, 08:13:00 PM
Quote from: Morrius;943952
The Ctrl-Left does have an idea of heroism.

"Victory Through Self-Victimization"
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Morrius on February 03, 2017, 08:46:35 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943995
"Victory Through Self-Victimization"

When you define victory as "getting lots of re-tweets"...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 04, 2017, 06:29:43 AM
Quote from: Morrius;943996
When you define victory as "getting lots of re-tweets"...

Id put it more generally "getting the attention I didn't get from my parents"
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on February 04, 2017, 06:44:31 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943993
...most people didn't vote. Which inevitably probably includes 90% of the people now freaking out about everything he does and says.


Pretty much this.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: S'mon on February 04, 2017, 04:39:51 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943993
...most people didn't vote. Which inevitably probably includes 90% of the people now freaking out about everything he does and says.


The fall in Democrat turnout contributed to Trump's victory. But Trump won, and Brexit won, by getting a lot of people to vote who normally don't bother, who are apathetic and think voting is pointless. So the idea that more voters = more Democrats or more anti-nationalists doesn't necessarily hold up. It tends to be that way in normal times; among regular voters the conservative ones are often more committed to voting (often being older), but never-vote-at-all types aren't really classifiable as left-wing; they seem generally apolitical.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 04, 2017, 04:46:19 PM
Quote from: S'mon;944117
The fall in Democrat turnout contributed to Trump's victory. But Trump won, and Brexit won, by getting a lot of people to vote who normally don't bother, who are apathetic and think voting is pointless. So the idea that more voters = more Democrats or more anti-nationalists doesn't necessarily hold up.

Well, fair enough. I can't say for sure either way, but I do wish that Bernie hadn't gotten screwed over by his party.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: JamesV on February 05, 2017, 08:15:13 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;944120
Well, fair enough. I can't say for sure either way, but I do wish that Bernie hadn't gotten screwed over by his party.

I would've never voted for him either, but I sympathize. The Dem nomination process was at least 70% screwjob in favor of the most entitled politician of our times. The circus aside, Trump won his nom in a fair fight.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 05, 2017, 08:17:53 AM
Quote from: JamesV;944163
I would've never voted for him either, but I sympathize. The Dem nomination process was at least 70% screwjob in favor of the most entitled politician of our times. The circus aside, Trump won his nom in a fair fight.

I think it's obvious to everyone that Hilary sacrificed both interests of the nation and Democratic party for her own ambition, then promptly chocked on it. If only Vader warned her...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: jeff37923 on February 05, 2017, 10:35:44 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;944164
I think it's obvious to everyone that Hilary sacrificed both interests of the nation and Democratic party for her own ambition, then promptly chocked on it. If only Vader warned her...

She would still have been destroyed by her own Death Star superlaser ego.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on February 05, 2017, 11:48:15 AM
And still no discussion on why this is a bad idea or outright impossible.

Quote from: RPGPundit;943853
Only incredibly diseased cultures and decadent civilizations on the verge of collapse have no concept of heroism.

This is true, and why the new #Exalted sucks :P

Quote from: Morrius;943996
When you define victory as "getting lots of re-tweets"...

Worked for #Trump.

Sadly the internet is one giant validation economy, which is why you'll see people dismiss someone's ideas based solely on the number of followers they have, and call them rude if they don't respond immediately or following them back. It's honestly worse than high school.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: thedungeondelver on February 05, 2017, 01:47:16 PM
Unless everyone at the table is of a hive-mind, heavy-handed symbolism and political allegory in a game kill any appeal to it.  Someone is bound to be upset, and what you wind up with is a derailed game no-one is comfortable playing.  "But who," you ask, "would be upset at smashing Fascism?  Why would you say that?  Are you some kind of...fascist?!"  The answer is that the term "fascist" is a moving goal post that extends from invading Ethiopia or the Sudetenland to "That guy is wearing a MAGA hat!", these days more the latter than the former.  "Fascist" is now a blanket term for "Things I don't like; I don't know why, but they're to the right of my beliefs and therefore they're fascist!"  So you sit down to game with two self-proclaimed Antifas, one apathetic guy and one conservative and the DM is suddenly talking about the "workers struggle" the Kobolds are engaging in and the next thing you know there's an argument at the table.  

Promoting ideologies in a game is bullshit.  It was bullshit when post-Gygax TSR was trying to pander to the God-botherers by stripping demons, devils and naked boobies out of D&D, and it's bullshit when SJW snowflakes demand representation.  I actually brayed like a fucking mule when reading that thread originally referenced and someone said "I put female POC on the cover of all my work even though they don't have anything to do with the game!!!" breathlessly like they'd struck a blow for equal rights.  It's as stupid as putting a naked woman on the cover of your RPG book: if all you're doing is using that to get people looking in your direction, then it's just as objectifying.

All I want out of an RPG is a framework to do some "let's pretend", and my "let's pretend" is "Let's pretend there's magic and dragons and kings and elves and gnomes and orcs and demons and shit and win treasure, kill the monsters, and gain power and prestige."  I don't want to read/hear/see your stupid commentary on your stupid opinion of your stupid politics, the end.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Morrius on February 05, 2017, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;944185

Worked for #Trump.

Sadly the internet is one giant validation economy, which is why you'll see people dismiss someone's ideas based solely on the number of followers they have, and call them rude if they don't respond immediately or following them back. It's honestly worse than high school.


Twitter is the Freudian id of the Internet.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on February 05, 2017, 03:39:38 PM
Quote from: thedungeondelver;944196
Unless everyone at the table is of a hive-mind, heavy-handed symbolism and political allegory in a game kill any appeal to it.  Someone is bound to be upset, and what you wind up with is a derailed game no-one is comfortable playing.

Even in our game that is a superhero/vigilante RPG, I had to sit down with the players and ask them where they stood on particular issues in terms of 'crime' and 'vigilantism'- many people associate things like Dirty Harry, Death Wish, or even The Punisher with fascism.  Two of the primary NPC's are what would be considered 'fascists' by the loose definition today- one's a lethal vigilante that basically gives the middle finger to law enforcement protocol and due process, and one's trying to recruit methahumans and transhumans to start a rogue nation-state within the US.

A lot of this involved me sitting down and saying "at what point do you want this to go?"  The characters were supposed to disagree about the way certain things were done, and have conflicts about the way it should be handled.  We don't get into the debate of it.  The group acknowledges that for the problem to be solved, there isn't enough time to sit and squabble among themselves- that's the point.

Because for every moment they spend bickering at each other over whose idea is 'righter', the situation does not pause.  It gets worse.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 05, 2017, 06:14:25 PM
Quote from: thedungeondelver;944196
Unless everyone at the table is of a hive-mind, heavy-handed symbolism and political allegory in a game kill any appeal to it.  Someone is bound to be upset, and what you wind up with is a derailed game no-one is comfortable playing.  "But who," you ask, "would be upset at smashing Fascism?  Why would you say that?  Are you some kind of...fascist?!"  The answer is that the term "fascist" is a moving goal post that extends from invading Ethiopia or the Sudetenland to "That guy is wearing a MAGA hat!", these days more the latter than the former.  "Fascist" is now a blanket term for "Things I don't like; I don't know why, but they're to the right of my beliefs and therefore they're fascist!"  So you sit down to game with two self-proclaimed Antifas, one apathetic guy and one conservative and the DM is suddenly talking about the "workers struggle" the Kobolds are engaging in and the next thing you know there's an argument at the table.  

Promoting ideologies in a game is bullshit.  It was bullshit when post-Gygax TSR was trying to pander to the God-botherers by stripping demons, devils and naked boobies out of D&D, and it's bullshit when SJW snowflakes demand representation.  I actually brayed like a fucking mule when reading that thread originally referenced and someone said "I put female POC on the cover of all my work even though they don't have anything to do with the game!!!" breathlessly like they'd struck a blow for equal rights.  It's as stupid as putting a naked woman on the cover of your RPG book: if all you're doing is using that to get people looking in your direction, then it's just as objectifying.

All I want out of an RPG is a framework to do some "let's pretend", and my "let's pretend" is "Let's pretend there's magic and dragons and kings and elves and gnomes and orcs and demons and shit and win treasure, kill the monsters, and gain power and prestige."  I don't want to read/hear/see your stupid commentary on your stupid opinion of your stupid politics, the end.


Agreed, especially on the latter part - in many ways, those ideas feel like someone's thinking that their life is an RPG, and just by using their best skill on character sheet, they can enact a lasting, significant change. Even if objectively speaking, RPGs are such a small part of the human activity, nor is there a shortage of activities to get all political about, that such actions are nigh-moot.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Crüesader on February 05, 2017, 10:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;944233
Agreed, especially on the latter part - in many ways, those ideas feel like someone's thinking that their life is an RPG, and just by using their best skill on character sheet, they can enact a lasting, significant change. Even if objectively speaking, RPGs are such a small part of the human activity, nor is there a shortage of activities to get all political about, that such actions are nigh-moot.

I have noticed a startling trend with the more unhinged elements of our hobby- these folks tend to have some trouble separating fiction from real life.  From the belief that chain mail bikinis cause rape culture, to putting a PoC in the fan art to make racism go away- their approach seems at worst delusional, at best disingenuous.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on February 06, 2017, 04:55:50 AM
Quote from: Morrius;944198
Twitter is the Freudian id of the Internet.


Indeed, but every social network relies on this dynamic. Hell, it's how people justify attacks against #Trump. It's not that his actions are immoral, but that he doesn't have the support of the majority.

Quote from: Crüesader;944207
even The Punisher with fascism


Speaking of #ThePunisher, my favorite scene in Marvel's Civil War was when he tried to join the side of freedom and got his ass kicked by Captain America, refusing to fight back ("not you"), struggling to appeal his case ("but they were the bad guys"), because Cap is the one hero he admires, respects, and in many ways hopes to be.

Man was Cap pissed.

Quote from: Crüesader;944289
I have noticed a startling trend with the more unhinged elements of our hobby- these folks tend to have some trouble separating fiction from real life.


This tends to apply to unhinged elements everywhere, and is partly due to only using immediately available context, being unable or unwilling to pick up on subtext, and assuming the interpretation is so obvious that everyone who doesn't reach the same conclusions is either delusional, lying, or has an agenda.

But let's face it, the internet has made telling the difference difficult for even for grounded folks.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: ArrozConLeche on February 10, 2017, 10:24:55 PM
wow that  JArcane is a real dumbass. blaming free speech  for the rise of trump  rather than it being a  backlash against militant, would be authoritarian  lefty crazies  like himself.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 11, 2017, 07:41:57 AM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;945124
wow that  JArcane is a real dumbass. blaming free speech  for the rise of trump  rather than it being a  backlash against militant, would be authoritarian  lefty crazies  like himself.

Where's JArcane? Because I've not seen him here in ages.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 11, 2017, 10:00:40 AM
Quote from: Rincewind1;945148
Where's JArcane? Because I've not seen him here in ages.

He ragequit the entire hobby.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 11, 2017, 11:19:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;945158
He ragequit the entire hobby.

That's what I heard, which is why I'm surprised he came up at all in this thread.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: noman on February 11, 2017, 02:50:00 PM
Hey, Rincewind1.

You know how you and I were going back and forth about Marxism in two different threads?  I was babbling about Marxists, and you were obsessing about my fridge.  Remember that?

Well, it turns out you were right.

I finally found a Marxist (ahem, Democratic Socialist) who could fit in my fridge.

Here (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fctry/bernie-sanders-action-figure).

I concede all of my arguments.  The existence of this doll makes my arguments invalid.

I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain noman.

:D
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: ArrozConLeche on February 11, 2017, 03:02:01 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;945168
That's what I heard, which is why I'm surprised he came up at all in this thread.


Go to the story gamer forum to see the stupidity he's spewing there.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 11, 2017, 11:08:47 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;945158
He ragequit the entire hobby.

When?

Didn't he move to Sweden?

JArcane was a good poster and he did a great job with Hulks & Horrors. I remember him being very upset that his game did not sell enough or fast enough for him.  Was that what made him check out of the hobby?


Quote from: ArrozConLeche;945175
Go to the story gamer forum to see the stupidity he's spewing there.

That's unfortunate.

I don't remember JArcane getting banned from here so hopefully he'll share his thoughts here too.

Is he promoting the idea of RPGs somehow "fighting" fascism?

That laughable "core values" from Monte Cook is just virtue signalling (at best) and customer losing (at worst).
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: jeff37923 on February 11, 2017, 11:44:27 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;945175
Go to the story gamer forum to see the stupidity he's spewing there.

Jesus fuck, the brain eater has gotten him.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Warboss Squee on February 12, 2017, 04:19:34 AM
Links, people! Some of us don't swim in the same sewers as you do!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 12, 2017, 06:28:40 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;944185

Sadly the internet is one giant validation economy, which is why you'll see people dismiss someone's ideas based solely on the number of followers they have, and call them rude if they don't respond immediately or following them back. It's honestly worse than high school.


Yer just jelly 'cause I'm bangin' a cheerleader, admit it!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 12, 2017, 09:50:19 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;945199
When?

Didn't he move to Sweden?

JArcane was a good poster and he did a great job with Hulks & Horrors. I remember him being very upset that his game did not sell enough or fast enough for him.  Was that what made him check out of the hobby?


Yes. He pretended it was something else though, that it was his righteous indignation at how ordinary gamers are all nazis.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 13, 2017, 01:22:47 AM
It's on http://www.story-games.com thread titled "How does your game fight Fascism". J comes in on page 2.

It looks like he might be a religious fanatic now, a True Believer fighting on the side of Good.

He's missing the obvious point that getting rid of the First Amendment means government can silence speech not by what John Berry thinks is right, but what the Congressman's corporate donors think is right.  You give the gov't power over the people, you can't guarantee which side will get to wield that power...unless of course you start exterminating those who disagree with you as undesirables, or maybe deplorables. ;)

But exterminating the "wrong" people doesn't really sound like the best way to combat fascism to me.  Call me crazy, I know.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 13, 2017, 03:31:29 AM
Worked for Lenin. :D
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 13, 2017, 04:36:53 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;945344
He pretended it was something else though, that it was his righteous indignation at how ordinary gamers are all nazis.


And that's why "ordinary gamers" are such sharp dressers and speak in crisp accents!


Quote from: CRKrueger;945370
It looks like he might be a religious fanatic now, a True Believer fighting on the side of Good.


What's his flavor of Magic Space Santa?

Weird to go to Sweden to become a fanatic.


Quote from: CRKrueger;945370
He's missing the obvious point that getting rid of the First Amendment means government can silence speech not by what Jeff Berry thinks is right, but what the Congressman's corporate donors think is right.


Please tell me he isn't promoting an end to the First Amendment. Ugh. That's mental in really bad ways.

What's his...reasoning?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 13, 2017, 06:54:33 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;945397
Weird to go to Sweden to become a fanatic.

Depends on what you're going to be fanatical about. What we'd called SJWs have a pretty strong hold on much of the culture in Sweden.  Heck a few years back there was actually a brief (as I understand) push to outlaw standing urination. Ostensibly because it was more messy and rude (ala Man Spreading), but with overtones that it was unfair and sexists that men could relive themselves more easily than women thus upsetting to them.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on February 13, 2017, 07:17:55 AM
Sweden is the SJW equivalent of Saudi Arabia, while Germany is the SJW equivalent of Iran.

The fact that SJW's want to abolish the First Amendment sickens me and makes me ashamed to be a liberal these days.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: ArrozConLeche on February 13, 2017, 11:05:45 AM
Quote from: Nexus;945408
Depends on what you're going to be fanatical about. What we'd called SJWs have a pretty strong hold on much of the culture in Sweden.  Heck a few years back there was actually a brief (as I understand) push to outlaw standing urination. Ostensibly because it was more messy and rude (ala Man Spreading), but with overtones that it was unfair and sexists that men could relive themselves more easily than women thus upsetting to them.

Wow, Nordic women are taking penis envy to a whole new level.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 13, 2017, 01:04:05 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;945412
Sweden is the SJW equivalent of Saudi Arabia, while Germany is the SJW equivalent of Iran.

The fact that SJW's want to abolish the First Amendment sickens me and makes me ashamed to be a liberal these days.

Not really. The "law" Nexus mentions was proposed by and only for councilmen in one Swedish town. Silly as it is, a far cry from mobs of SJWs chopping people's dicks off for manspreading.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 13, 2017, 01:29:22 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;945439
Not really. The "law" Nexus mentions was proposed by and only for councilmen in one Swedish town. Silly as it is, a far cry from mobs of SJWs chopping people's dicks off for manspreading.

Really? The article I read implied it was a nationwide proposal. It was something I years ago and, as I recall, the legislation didn't last long. But this does sound much less nuts than I thought, though still kind of out there.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: jhkim on February 13, 2017, 02:28:59 PM
Quote from: Nexus;945445
Really? The article I read implied it was a nationwide proposal. It was years ago and didn't last long. But this does sound much less nuts than I thought, though still kind of out there.
Especially with unisex bathrooms, I've frequently seen complaints about urine spattered on the rim and floor from peeing standing up. Given the craziness of local politics, I don't find it at all surprising that someone somewhere would propose this. From what I can see from quick search, all references are to a massively reshared failed proposal in the Sormland County Council in 2012 (and as Rincewind said, it applied only to use of their own office bathroom).

http://web.archive.org/web/20120613220207/http://www.thelocal.se/41358/20120611/
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 13, 2017, 09:37:44 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;945412
Sweden is the SJW equivalent of Saudi Arabia, while Germany is the SJW equivalent of Iran.


Uh, no.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 13, 2017, 09:37:56 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;945397
Please tell me he isn't promoting an end to the First Amendment. Ugh. That's mental in really bad ways.

What's his...reasoning?
It's ok to be Intolerant of Intolerance, and alt-right/nazi/fascist/racist/etc speech shouldn't be protected.  How you get there without shitcanning the First Amendment he doesn't say, so I assume he prefers it was shitcanned or changed.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Morrius on February 13, 2017, 10:17:08 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;945520
It's ok to be Intolerant of Intolerance, and alt-right/nazi/fascist/racist/etc speech shouldn't be protected.  How you get there without shitcanning the First Amendment he doesn't say, so I assume he prefers it was shitcanned or changed.

Wasn't similar logic used to try and outlaw flag-burning?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 13, 2017, 11:27:21 PM
Quote from: jhkim;945450
Especially with unisex bathrooms, I've frequently seen complaints about urine spattered on the rim and floor from peeing standing up. Given the craziness of local politics, I don't find it at all surprising that someone somewhere would propose this. From what I can see from quick search, all references are to a massively reshared failed proposal in the Sormland County Council in 2012 (and as Rincewind said, it applied only to use of their own office bathroom).

http://web.archive.org/web/20120613220207/http://www.thelocal.se/41358/20120611/

Whereas I've actually done janitorial work and I can tell you for a fact that at the end of the day the ladies restroom is usually utterly fucking trashed, while the mens room is usually only low on supplies, with even odd of a few misplaced scraps or cigarette butts.  Maybe men splatter more (as yes, men splatter more), but damn if we don't keep the rest of that shit, at least in public restrooms, where it fucking belongs.

More than a few ladies have confided to me that, yes, they do indeed trash public restrooms... and why not? They ain't cleaning it up!

Therefore, we should ban women from using public restrooms until they learn to clean up after themselves.  Men have to sit while peeing, of course. I am fair.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 14, 2017, 12:00:10 AM
Quote from: Spike;945532
Whereas I've actually done janitorial work and I can tell you for a fact that at the end of the day the ladies restroom is usually utterly fucking trashed, while the mens room is usually only low on supplies, with even odd of a few misplaced scraps or cigarette butts.  Maybe men splatter more (as yes, men splatter more), but damn if we don't keep the rest of that shit, at least in public restrooms, where it fucking belongs.

Yeah, I've had to clean ladies rooms too and they do tend to be messier. Some there was more piss on the toilet seats. I guess because the men were using the urinals more or are putting up the seat and I guess some women that "hover" have bad aim (and bigger urine streams). So I'd imagine some of those spatters in the unisex bathrooms weren't from men.

But trying legislate how people piss still sounds nuts to me. How are you going to enforce it? Just rely on people ratting on each other which would lead to people doing it just to screw with others? Cameras? Bathroom attendants peeking under the stalls? Will there be additional legislation to mandate that people sit and don't hover? Maybe pressure registering toilet seats that sound an alarm if no weight is put on them so many seconds after the stall door is closed?

Quote
More than a few ladies have confided to me that, yes, they do indeed trash public restrooms... and why not? They ain't cleaning it up!

Not an uncommon feeling about public areas in general regardless of gender, unfortunately.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 14, 2017, 12:38:51 AM
Oh no, I"m a FIRM believer in using the power of Government to legislate bathrooms.  I can see nothing going wrong with this position of mine.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 14, 2017, 12:39:48 AM
Quote from: Spike;945541
Oh no, I"m a FIRM believer in using the power of Government to legislate bathrooms.  I can see nothing going wrong with this position of mine.

Pardon?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 14, 2017, 12:41:10 AM
Quote from: Voros;945519
Uh, no.

Can you expand on this objection some? As I understand the US definition of "Left" is fairly different from the European definition of "Left" but I always like to learn more about the particulars.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 14, 2017, 01:15:13 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;945520
It's ok to be Intolerant of Intolerance, and alt-right/nazi/fascist/racist/etc speech shouldn't be protected.  How you get there without shitcanning the First Amendment he doesn't say, so I assume he prefers it was shitcanned or changed.


So...the same "rationale" for banning unpatriotic speech, atheist speech, and all other undesirable words?

I am often surprised we still have the First Amendment considering how EVERY FUCKING SIDE has tried to silence all dissent.

...and people wonder why I want to burgerize my fellow citizens...

Once again...
Censorship is easy.
Defending free speech is hard.

There's no way but the hard way. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DHHv5OuEzY)


Quote from: Nexus;945534
But trying legislate how people piss still sounds nuts to me. How are you going to enforce it?


Same way we're checking everyone's junk to make sure they're using their birth gender bathroom!

Drones!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 14, 2017, 01:28:50 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;945548
Same way we're checking everyone's junk to make sure they're using their birth gender bathroom!

Drones!

That's part of my objection to the various "bathroom bills" regarding such things though, like most things, I feel there is some nuance that makes it more complicated than most seem to be willing to consider (without dismissing those that do as some form of bigot). We live in age where people want simple, pat answers that fit into catch sound bites and for some issues that isn't really feasible. (and get off my lawn!).
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 14, 2017, 02:11:02 AM
Quote from: Nexus;945542
Pardon?

I ALSO think that we should enact laws prohibiting lumberjack beards on hipsters. Basically, if you live in the city, don't own an ax or a fireplace you should not be legally allowed to own a bear, or a beard for that matter.

On the other hand, in keeping with my fairness principle, if you ARE legally entitled to wear a bear, or a beard, you are barred from ever drinking any coffee that is not black and preferrably made in a tin pot over a wood fire. Basically, its the anti-starbucks law.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 14, 2017, 03:43:57 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;945370
It's on http://www.story-games.com thread titled "How does your game fight Fascism". J comes in on page 2.

It looks like he might be a religious fanatic now, a True Believer fighting on the side of Good.

He's missing the obvious point that getting rid of the First Amendment means government can silence speech not by what Jeff Berry thinks is right, but what the Congressman's corporate donors think is right.  You give the gov't power over the people, you can't guarantee which side will get to wield that power...unless of course you start exterminating those who disagree with you as undesirables, or maybe deplorables. ;)

But exterminating the "wrong" people doesn't really sound like the best way to combat fascism to me.  Call me crazy, I know.

What's Jeff got to do with anything?  Or do you know a different Jeff Berry from the one I know?

Also, holy fucking buckets of shit, what a piss stream that thread is.  That's five minutes of life I'm not getting back.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 14, 2017, 03:52:37 AM
Quote from: Spike;945556
I ALSO think that we should enact laws prohibiting lumberjack beards on hipsters. Basically, if you live in the city, don't own an ax or a fireplace you should not be legally allowed to own a bear, or a beard for that matter.

On the other hand, in keeping with my fairness principle, if you ARE legally entitled to wear a bear, or a beard, you are barred from ever drinking any coffee that is not black and preferrably made in a tin pot over a wood fire. Basically, its the anti-starbucks law.

Ha! Thanks, I needed that. :D
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 14, 2017, 04:59:34 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;945561
What's Jeff got to do with anything?  Or do you know a different Jeff Berry from the one I know?

JArcane wrote the Hulks & Horrors RPG. It's really good stuff.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/111781/Hulks-and-Horrors--Basic-Black-Edition

His company is/was Bedroom Wall Games.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/4617/Bedroom-Wall-Press
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 14, 2017, 05:18:03 AM
Quote from: Nexus;945562
Ha! Thanks, I needed that. :D

I'll have you know that I Identify as Serious. I find your laughing at my comments deeply insensitive to my Identity.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 14, 2017, 07:45:54 AM
Quote from: Nexus;945543
Can you expand on this objection some? As I understand the US definition of "Left" is fairly different from the European definition of "Left" but I always like to learn more about the particulars.


Pretty simple. His comparisons were absurd.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 14, 2017, 07:51:09 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;945561
What's Jeff got to do with anything?  Or do you know a different Jeff Berry from the one I know?

Also, holy fucking buckets of shit, what a piss stream that thread is.  That's five minutes of life I'm not getting back.


Whoops, I meant John Berry.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: ArrozConLeche on February 14, 2017, 04:01:00 PM
So AnnonAdderlan, one of the few people daring speaking the truth in that thread, has just been banned from Story Games (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/comment/460239/#Comment_460239)...allegedly because he was "fisking" (replying point by point)-- which is just another odious, anti-intellectual, thought-stopping word.

Do not question the orthodoxy.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Opaopajr on February 14, 2017, 09:11:29 PM
Quote from: Spike;945541
Oh no, I"m a FIRM believer in using the power of Government to legislate bathrooms.  I can see nothing going wrong with this position of mine.


Can we legislate lopping off the right hand of those who rip off soap dispensers from the wall entirely, and deliberately paper toweling sinks and toilets to flood over? This would appease my ever so small, repressed, violent streak.
:)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 14, 2017, 09:24:27 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;945664
So AnnonAdderlan, one of the few people daring speaking the truth in that thread, has just been banned from Story Games (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/comment/460239/#Comment_460239)...allegedly because he was "fisking" (replying point by point)-- which is just another odious, anti-intellectual, thought-stopping word.

Do not question the orthodoxy.

Okay, how the Hell is that a violation? I mean is there some justification for it? The only thing I can sort of see if they it can create tension if its done just to cherry pick things to snark at or distort the person's point but that's more being an ass not the technique itself.

Sounds like another "concern trolling" style beat stick yeah.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 14, 2017, 10:59:36 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;945705
Can we legislate lopping off the right hand of those who rip off soap dispensers from the wall entirely, and deliberately paper toweling sinks and toilets to flood over? This would appease my ever so small, repressed, violent streak.
:)

Naturally! I always look for excuses to increase the Government's power to maim people!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 15, 2017, 03:22:34 AM
Jason Morningstar asserted his game Night Witches fought fascism.
Anon asked how it fought fascism.
Jason accused him of fisking.
Anon asked how it fought fascism.
Anon is temp-banned for fisking.
Still haven't heard how.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 15, 2017, 05:21:19 AM
The Night Witches are fascinating. They were Russian women pilots/bombers in WW2. Crazy levels of bravery and sacrifice.

I have no idea if the RPG captures that. Sabaton did a song about the witches. Kinda surprised Hollywood hasn't done a movie about them yet.


Quote from: ArrozConLeche;945664
Do not question the orthodoxy.

Why not?

:)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on February 15, 2017, 05:51:51 AM
So now people have to add completely new words to the lexicon, and then redefine them, in order to ban me. And here I thought being banned for not posting quickly enough on rpg.net was as ludicrous as it gets. Coincidentally both of these are the product of reading entire threads, considering every point carefully, and responding in one concise (but typically large) post. So both sites targeted how I post rather than what I said in order to silence me.

But it wasn't for my posts in the #Fascism thread. No, that would have been too on the nose :)

Still, what disappoints me most is how my examples were dismissed as 'drama' instead of how aggressive calls to action go horribly wrong and hurt our community. But I think at this point I'm working against human nature, because people don't want solutions but validation, which is not something I'm equipped to give.

And what concerns me most is how questions were seen as a threat, even in a thread about questioning #Fascism. Not one was answered, and I was dismissed for asking. No one on the political extremes is capable of self-evaluation it seems, and while I have deep sympathy, trauma does tend to skew one's perspective, creating a cycle of hurt people hurting others which, now that I think about it, is not possible to fix from the inside.

So I'm finally out of an embarrassingly long bout of devastating anxiety and depression, and strangely this helped. Because contrary to some, interacting with anxious and depressed people only made things worse, to the point where every interaction was a crisis. Now at least I can get some peace and speak freely, defend my friends, and if I'm unjustly vilified, well I've accepted that as an inevitability.

Quote from: Spinachcat;945548
I am often surprised we still have the First Amendment considering how EVERY FUCKING SIDE has tried to silence all dissent.


Free speech is dead, and ironically the #Internet killed it.

Seriously, it's like the High Lord of #BizarroWorld invaded sometime in 2015 and we still haven't noticed.

Quote from: Nexus;945550
We live in age where people want simple, pat answers that fit into catch sound bites and for some issues that isn't really feasible.


Woah, #DejaVu.

Quote from: Spike;945556
I ALSO think that we should enact laws prohibiting lumberjack beards on hipsters. Basically, if you live in the city, don't own an ax or a fireplace you should not be legally allowed to own a bear, or a beard for that matter.


Also you are forbidden to wear flannel or crossdress.

And in #SovietAmerica, bear owns you!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Brand55 on February 15, 2017, 10:33:39 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;945755
Sabaton did a song about the witches. Kinda surprised Hollywood hasn't done a movie about them yet.
I feel that way about a lot of their songs. Night Witches, No Bullets Fly, Inmate 4859 . . . They could all make for amazing movies or miniseries. Not to mention The Last Battle, which really surprises me given the massive, throbbing erection that Hollywood has for anything to do with "diversity" these days.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 15, 2017, 10:43:38 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;945755
Kinda surprised Hollywood hasn't done a movie about them yet.


Patriarchy!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 15, 2017, 10:47:47 AM
Quote from: Voros;945577
Pretty simple. His comparisons were absurd.


I can't really say either way since I've never been to Sweden. Depending on who wrote it, what I've read about Sweden paints it either as a pleasant place to live just well on "Left" side of the spectrum in European terms which puts it really far on American terms or "Its what Tangency would be if it were an actual physical place". Either of which might be complimentary or negative depending on the reader's out look.  

I was surprised by his comments about Germany though.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 15, 2017, 11:17:43 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;945758
And what concerns me most is how questions were seen as a threat, even in a thread about questioning #Fascism. Not one was answered, and I was dismissed for asking.
It seems that people in general these days don't like to have to actually defend their beliefs or contentions, and the SJW side of things takes direct questions as a personal attack, it happens to Zak all the time.

That's what happens when you are objectively Good on the objectively Right Side, you don't have to defend your beliefs, and in fact, them even being questioned is an offense similar to how the religious might be offended when you start to deconstruct Genesis.  It really is the worst aspects of religious thinking.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 15, 2017, 11:29:39 AM
The actual Night Witches were all kinds of awesome.  However, they didn't get band together to fight Fascism, they banded together to defend their Motherland, which was the Soviet Union under Stalin.  The politics of the game, as you might expect, are based completely around exploring feminism.  The WWII aspect is just a convenient cultural backdrop that provided a group of kickass women to write about.

In any case, publishing a game about them, even if it was done to raise awareness about them, does no more to fight fascism then a Band of Brothers RPG.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: ArrozConLeche on February 15, 2017, 11:42:59 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;945789
It seems that people in general these days don't like to have to actually defend their beliefs or contentions, and the SJW side of things takes direct questions as a personal attack, it happens to Zak all the time.

That's what happens when you are objectively Good on the objectively Right Side, you don't have to defend your beliefs, and in fact, them even being questioned is an offense similar to how the religious might be offended when you start to deconstruct Genesis.  It really is the worst aspects of religious thinking.

Some of the regressive left consider some issues to be "settled", so if you question those things, you're automatically a bad person. In this case, my guess is that they consider Trump's rise to be fascism and that's that.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: One Horse Town on February 15, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
Jesus, is Morningstar still self-fellating over how righteous he is? Odd how he always manages to get a game plug in too, isn't it?

That's what makes me laugh about some of these smug twats. They're making money out of portraying 'misery' in the interest of raising awareness. My arse! Give your games away if you want maximum exposure and think that your leisure-activity is actually meaningful and does not trivialise the issues therein. :D
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: jhkim on February 15, 2017, 02:40:53 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;945758
So now people have to add completely new words to the lexicon, and then redefine them, in order to ban me. And here I thought being banned for not posting quickly enough on rpg.net was as ludicrous as it gets. Coincidentally both of these are the product of reading entire threads, considering every point carefully, and responding in one concise (but typically large) post. So both sites targeted how I post rather than what I said in order to silence me.

But it wasn't for my posts in the #Fascism thread. No, that would have been too on the nose :)

In terms of debate, I dislike taking individual sentences or phrases and addressing each of them. I find it often devolves into nitpicking or misrepresenting others rather than clarifying your own position.

That said, it is bullshit to suddenly invent a rule against that and then ban you for it.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;945758
So I'm finally out of an embarrassingly long bout of devastating anxiety and depression, and strangely this helped. Because contrary to some, interacting with anxious and depressed people only made things worse, to the point where every interaction was a crisis. Now at least I can get some peace and speak freely, defend my friends, and if I'm unjustly vilified, well I've accepted that as an inevitability.

Good to hear that you're feeling better. Speaking freely is a good feeling.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 15, 2017, 03:24:37 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;945758

So I'm finally out of an embarrassingly long bout of devastating anxiety and depression, and strangely this helped. Because contrary to some, interacting with anxious and depressed people only made things worse, to the point where every interaction was a crisis. Now at least I can get some peace and speak freely, defend my friends, and if I'm unjustly vilified, well I've accepted that as an inevitability.


Having a backbone, and not giving a fuck what anyone thinks, are for whatever reason excellent cures/prevention for anxiety and depression, in my experience.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on February 15, 2017, 04:44:45 PM
There is a poetry to ending this on a site run by a machine which kills #Fascists.

Quote from: Nexus;945786
I was surprised by his comments about Germany though.


Tell you a story about #Germany.

So I was about 4 hours early to the #Hope Conference and waiting outside with a woman from #Germany who was talking about how ridiculous the SJW nonsense had gotten. For example, people were complaining that the little crosswalk light was sexist because it was a stick figure of a man.

Heh, I mean how can you even tell, right? Ridiculous.

Well later on I speak to another woman who traveled to #Germany and pointed out that the little stick figure wears a hat.

So context is inadvertently or deliberately being kept from us which alters the conclusions and decisions we make, which is strangely relevant to RPGs as you can do exactly the same thing as a GM. Regardless, the only way you expose that hidden context is by asking questions.

Quote from: CRKrueger;945789
It seems that people in general these days don't like to have to actually defend their beliefs or contentions, and the SJW side of things takes direct questions as a personal attack, it happens to Zak all the time.


And yet that #PigFucker deleted the only question I ever asked him instead of answering it.

Speaking of which, I probably should get back to that.

Quote from: One Horse Town;945794
Jesus, is Morningstar still self-fellating over how righteous he is? Odd how he always manages to get a game plug in too, isn't it?


Um, you do realize you just described @RPGPundit, right?

And yet I'll still buy those games if they're good.

Quote from: jhkim;945814
I dislike taking individual sentences or phrases and addressing each of them. I find it often devolves into nitpicking or misrepresenting others rather than clarifying your own position.


Yes, but was I doing that? Did I misrepresenting anyone or anything? Was my position (which I have been repeating consistently for years) somehow unclear? On the other hand how did my #Ideological opponents score here?

My life has been one enormous #QED as of late. Literally everything about those threads proved the points I was making in them. I stick by my thesis that they genuinely mean well, only our current methods are turning friends into enemies and achieving the exact opposite of what's intended. And I suspect the reason they refuse to evaluate them is because doing so risks undermining the very premise they built their philosophy on, but that's what has to happen if we're to stop hurting each other. So I guess they just have to decide which is more important.

But here I am, making the same points all over again, as if this time it'll be different.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: noman on February 15, 2017, 06:45:40 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;945859
My life has been one enormous #QED as of late. Literally everything about those threads proved the points I was making in them. I stick by my thesis that they genuinely mean well, only our current methods are turning friends into enemies and achieving the exact opposite of what's intended. And I suspect the reason they refuse to evaluate them is because doing so risks undermining the very premise they built their philosophy on, but that's what has to happen if we're to stop hurting each other. So I guess they just have to decide which is more important.

But here I am, making the same points all over again, as if this time it'll be different.


Brilliant.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 15, 2017, 06:48:01 PM
This forum talks obsessively about other forums like they're ex-girlfriends.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 15, 2017, 10:14:54 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;945758

Also you are forbidden to wear flannel or crossdress.

And in #SovietAmerica, bear owns you!


Actually, I've already passed laws that mandate crossdressing, but only for bears.  On the other hand, I've outlawed dressing crosses, so it's all good.

That's the key, you see: Always make sure to take something away whenever you give something.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 15, 2017, 10:52:17 PM
Quote from: Voros;945908
This forum talks obsessively about other forums like they're ex-girlfriends.

Actually not a bad analogy. RPGnet is kind of like a girlfriend you really used to like, and then she goes insane and cheats on you with a hippy douchebag who gives her chlamydia, and she blames you for it.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: MrMephistopheles on February 17, 2017, 08:06:34 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;945947
Actually not a bad analogy. RPGnet is kind of like a girlfriend you really used to like, and then she goes insane and cheats on you with a hippy douchebag who gives her chlamydia, and she blames you for it.

The albeit strange metaphor I use for rpg.net is it's like showing someone who has never seen them Robocop and Starship Troopers, watching as they completely miss the satire, then listening to them complain that you showed them movies with authoritarian overtones.  It's hard to take an outward presentation of inclusiveness with any degree of seriousness when it comes with the baggage of cliques, insularity, baiting and a creepy degree of "Sorry you're not the right KIND of lgbt, leftist,etc." going on.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 18, 2017, 12:26:35 AM
With a healthy dose of self righteousness to justify everything else.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on February 18, 2017, 04:33:13 AM
I've been pondering this a bit more, and I think I actually have had enough of this shit, especially now that violent revolution is actually a thing being justified and endorsed, to the point that many are starting to operate like a #Terrorist cell, which goes waaay beyond using games as #Propaganda.

Quote from: Spike;945938
Actually, I've already passed laws that mandate crossdressing, but only for bears.


Everyone has a cross to bear, or bear to cross, or bear to crossdress, or a cross bear, but never before did I think they'd be one in the same.

Quote from: Spike;945938
That's the key, you see: Always make sure to take something away whenever you give something.


So basically a #Toxic relationship. With a bear.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;945947
RPGnet is kind of like a girlfriend you really used to like, and then she goes insane and cheats on you with a hippy douchebag who gives her chlamydia, and she blames you for it.


Is that why we can't be friends?

Quote from: MrMephistopheles;946228
The albeit strange metaphor I use for rpg.net is it's like showing someone who has never seen them Robocop and Starship Troopers, watching as they completely miss the satire, then listening to them complain that you showed them movies with authoritarian overtones.


This is what scares me the most, as by any definition a #Fascist state depends on a populous which doesn't consider the media they consume beyond a single literal interpretation, and the people who can't grasp #Satire and #Subtext are the people most likely to fall into that group.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 18, 2017, 06:54:12 AM
A lack of irony and humour are invaluable for the dogmatic on the left and right, they just pick different things to be offended about.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Bucket on February 18, 2017, 07:35:39 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;946278
Bunch of stuff

Something about this has a familiar feel to it.  I honestly feel it's like the Communist purges of the Red Terror, where you either complied with the Ideology or you were punished or silenced.  Maybe I'm just imagining it but it is a weird situation at the moment.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 18, 2017, 08:16:12 AM
Quote from:  Anon Adderlan
My life has been one enormous #QED as of late. Literally everything about those threads proved the points I was making in them.

Careful, this sounds a lot like this:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Lewis'_Law

(Note the amusing bit at the bottom of the page stating that Helen Lewis herself is persona non grata for being the 'wrong' kind of feminist.)

Quote from: MrMephistopheles;946228
The albeit strange metaphor I use for rpg.net is it's like showing someone who has never seen them Robocop and Starship Troopers, watching as they completely miss the satire, then listening to them complain that you showed them movies with authoritarian overtones.

Dead on.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 18, 2017, 08:40:22 AM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;946320

(Note the amusing bit at the bottom of the page stating that Helen Lewis herself is persona non grata for being the 'wrong' kind of feminist.)



Weirdly, google doesntcome up with any hits for the accusation against her of "anti-intersectional feminism".And when I look up Intersectionality I get "Intersectionality is a concept often used in critical theories to describe the ways in which oppressive institutions (racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, xenophobia, classism, etc.) are interconnected and cannot be examined separately from one another."

So...she's the wrong kind of feminist because she doesn't think every form of oppression is connected? Does that mean she doesn't buy into "The Patriarchy"?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 18, 2017, 09:47:03 AM
On the "fisking" thing, I can see it being a beat stick but, OTOH and IME, broken up, line by line replies rarely indicate the discussion is going anywhere good. It usually denotes excessive nitpicking over part of the reply without context or trying maneuver the person into defending some minor point or even a strawman instead of responding to the actual point and thrust of what they're saying. IOW, it can be a cheap internet trick to "win" or at least fluster the person you're arguing against or just a sign of getting pissed off.  Not that that is necessarily what Anon Adderlan was doing and I'm not going to wade into that mess to find out.  but it can be an issue.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 18, 2017, 09:56:24 AM
No usually non-intersectional feminists, often called radical feminists, believe ONLY in the patriarchy to the exclusion of race, gender and class. They are often rabidly anti-trans. Of course one could be declared not a 'real feminist' because one supports sex workers or doesn't toe one trendy political position or the other.

It is goofy as intersectional feminism is treated like a new idea when the idea that there are other forms of oppression besides gender goes back to the beginning of feminism and earlier. But you know how every generation thinks they're the first to think of an idea and won't make the same mistakes as previous generations...

Edited to add: I went and read the linked Helen Lewis piece and it strikes me (no doubt from my postion of 'privilege') as a reasonable, moderate and questioning piece. But for those on the far left such moderation and doubt is the greatest betrayal and such 'liberal' scum come in for the most extreme abuse precisely because they are traitors to THE CAUSE.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 18, 2017, 10:42:03 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946322
Weirdly, google doesntcome up with any hits for the accusation against her of "anti-intersectional feminism".

Click on the link within the link I provided (in the Disclaimer section) to read of her heresy.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 18, 2017, 11:11:59 PM
When Helen Lewis isn't welcome at FemFest 2017, you know feminism has gone off the rails.
That's just cuckoo for coco-puffs.

While the "intersectional" concept may have some academic use and maybe even useful for fundraising, it fails with real world activism.

What are we protesting? Everything!
What do we want to change? Everything!
What do we want to change first? [protesters turn on each other in frenzy]

That was a key issue with Occupy Wall Street. They could never get a message across. Colbert himself brought them on the Report and he tried desperately to interview these college grad knuckleheads about WTF they wanted. The interview is both sad and hysterical.

Civil rights protestors wanted equal rights and equal access for all. Boom. Easy to understand.

Anti-Abortion protestors want to end abortion. Boom. Easy to understand.

Anti-Vietnam war protestors wanted to end the US involvement in Vietnam. Boom. Easy the understand.

Today's intersectionalism? Who the fuck knows what they want. They can't agree on any one message the rest of the country can understand. If you can't convince the independents in the middle class and working class of your cause, you aren't going to win any real change.


Quote from: Bucket;946312
I honestly feel it's like the Communist purges of the Red Terror, where you either complied with the Ideology or you were punished or silenced.  Maybe I'm just imagining it but it is a weird situation at the moment.


It is a weird situation, but you are imagining that the online tempests in a teacup have any relation to the Red Terror.

Sure, there are lots of idiots who want to silence others through violence, but they are a tiny minority of even hardcore "liberals." Its no surprise the most extreme members of the Right and Left share the same tactics.

The weirdness today involves the media collusion to somehow justify, downplay or negate the political violence of the Left.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 19, 2017, 01:17:13 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;946278
Everyone has a cross to bear, or bear to cross, or bear to crossdress, or a cross bear, but never before did I think they'd be one in the same.

That's because I'm far more progressive than all those regressive losers you've had running policy since, oh... hmm... really since the end of world war one, but who's counting? I"m just... better. Full stop.



Quote
So basically a #Toxic relationship. With a bear.

Are you bearphopic? You sound bearphobic to me...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on February 19, 2017, 04:25:46 AM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;946320
Careful, this sounds a lot like this:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Lewis'_Law


To be fair, when someone makes a rape threat in your thread about how rape threats are a problem, you do kinda have your point proven for you. But when someone asks you questions after you loudly declare it's not your job to educate people, well that just means you've succeeded at #Trolling.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;946320
(Note the amusing bit at the bottom of the page stating that Helen Lewis herself is persona non grata for being the 'wrong' kind of feminist.)


Quote from: geekfeminism
Helen Lewis is an anti-intersectional feminist; her views are diametrically opposed to the editorial position of this wiki. We do not endorse any of her opinions and mentioning Lewis's Law should not be construed as such an endorsement.


Ho. Le. Shi.

Quote from: Nexus;946328
On the "fisking" thing, I can see it being a beat stick but, OTOH and IME, broken up, line by line replies rarely indicate the discussion is going anywhere good. It usually denotes excessive nitpicking over part of the reply without context or trying maneuver the person into defending some minor point or even a strawman instead of responding to the actual point and thrust of what they're saying. IOW, it can be a cheap internet trick to "win" or at least fluster the person you're arguing against or just a sign of getting pissed off.


Submitted for your consideration: This is the only form of dialog possible on #Twitter.

#Coincidence?

Quote from: Spike;946409
Are you bearphopic? You sound bearphobic to me...


I'm not bearphobic! I have bear friends!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: DarcyDettmann on February 19, 2017, 01:50:53 PM
Talking about Fascist doing Fascist things...

Whitewolf Hires Zak Sabbath and Denies Harassment. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?798635-Whitewolf-Hires-Zak-Sabbath-and-Denies-Harassment)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 19, 2017, 02:05:51 PM
Quote from: DarcyDettmann;946471
Talking about Fascist doing Fascist things...

Whitewolf Hires Zak Sabbath and Denies Harassment. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?798635-Whitewolf-Hires-Zak-Sabbath-and-Denies-Harassment)

Well,not to play devil's advocate, but I dunno if bitching about who WW hires is tantamount to fascism. At least not until the attempts at censorship start...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 19, 2017, 02:35:35 PM
This is why you don't let RPG designers become social media stars.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 19, 2017, 02:37:53 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;946475
This is why you don't let RPG designers become social media stars.

It feels almost inevitable these days. :-/
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 19, 2017, 02:40:37 PM
Well, you wanted cyberpunk, you got cyberpunk.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 19, 2017, 02:43:48 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;946477
Well, you wanted cyberpunk, you got cyberpunk.

I don't remember making a wish on any Monkey's Paws so don't pin this on me! :D
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 19, 2017, 04:30:16 PM
Rincewind, I just noticed your signature has two typos ('representatives' plural, 'believes' instead of 'beliefs'). You might want to fix that. I wanted to send you a PM, but your box is full.

EDIT: You might also want to add a 'the' after the 'that' in the second part of your signature.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 19, 2017, 04:33:21 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946322
Weirdly, google doesntcome up with any hits for the accusation against her of "anti-intersectional feminism".And when I look up Intersectionality I get "Intersectionality is a concept often used in critical theories to describe the ways in which oppressive institutions (racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, xenophobia, classism, etc.) are interconnected and cannot be examined separately from one another."

So...she's the wrong kind of feminist because she doesn't think every form of oppression is connected? Does that mean she doesn't buy into "The Patriarchy"?

No, Helen Lewis believes in intersectionality and acknowledges it is an essential tool for analyzing feminism.  She is called, quote "anti-intersectionalist" because she thinks intersectionality can have practical limitations and is used as a hammer on the internet to brand people.  An example she gives is a small feminist group starting a meetup.  Should they hire a professional ASL translator, and have a copy of everything printed in Braille?  If they don't have it prepared beforehand and instead plan on having it should it be requested, are they ignoring the intersectionality of woman+blind, woman+deaf because of their privilege?  In other words, too many people examine everything 100% in the abstract from the safety of the internet and have unrealistic expectations (ironically, she ties this in to the idea that people expect men to have opinions they agree with and don't agree with, but a woman has to be perfect - I'm sure a lot of internet feminists don't like to be told that, especially the ones who are white men).

So it's the standard "Why do Internet Feminists hate her?" Because she's sane and not a religious zealot.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 19, 2017, 04:53:39 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;946477
Well, you wanted cyberpunk, you got cyberpunk.

Yeah, but we're not getting a single COOL thing out of cyberpunk, just the uber-consumerist corporate power structure, the increasingly totalitarian governments, and the ridiculously vapid and braindead social media economy.  At worst, we're gonna spend the next 50 fucking years rummaging through the various "How it Came to Pass" intro chapters of Cyberpunk games detailing economic and global collapse, ecological collapse, war, famine, choose your apocalypse.  At best the cool shit like SimSense will hit right after we're dead. :p

Oh well, at least we have drone assassins...which the police will no doubt be using soon to resolve hostage crises and standoff situations.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 19, 2017, 06:20:13 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;946416

I'm not bearphobic! I have bear friends!


That's it, buddy... you're on the list!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 19, 2017, 06:31:42 PM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;946489
Rincewind, I just noticed your signature has two typos ('representatives' plural, 'believes' instead of 'beliefs'). You might want to fix that. I wanted to send you a PM, but your box is full.

EDIT: You might also want to add a 'the' after the 'that' in the second part of your signature.

Thanks man, but it was pretentious wankery enough aimed at an asshole no longer here.

Quote from: CRKrueger;946495
Yeah, but we're not getting a single COOL thing out of cyberpunk, just the uber-consumerist corporate power structure, the increasingly totalitarian governments, and the ridiculously vapid and braindead social media economy.  At worst, we're gonna spend the next 50 fucking years rummaging through the various "How it Came to Pass" intro chapters of Cyberpunk games detailing economic and global collapse, ecological collapse, war, famine, choose your apocalypse.  At best the cool shit like SimSense will hit right after we're dead. :p

Oh well, at least we have drone assassins...which the police will no doubt be using soon to resolve hostage crises and standoff situations.

That, and 3D printers. And Internet way, way more ubiquitous than thought, so there's that.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 19, 2017, 06:37:08 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;946516
And Internet way, way more ubiquitous than thought, so there's that.
Unfortunately that's really the worst thing of all.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 19, 2017, 07:06:58 PM
Quote from: DarcyDettmann;946471
Talking about Fascist doing Fascist things...

Whitewolf Hires Zak Sabbath and Denies Harassment. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?798635-Whitewolf-Hires-Zak-Sabbath-and-Denies-Harassment)


Congrats Zak!!

It should be a very interesting project. I hope he gets to help with the visuals too.



Quote from: CRKrueger;946490
I'm sure a lot of internet feminists don't like to be told that, especially the ones who are white men


LOL!!


Quote from: CRKrueger;946495
Yeah, but we're not getting a single COOL thing out of cyberpunk


That discussion deserves its own thread. Definitely important concept for running Cyberpunk RPGs.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: DarcyDettmann on February 19, 2017, 09:25:08 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946474
Well,not to play devil's advocate, but I dunno if bitching about who WW hires is tantamount to fascism. At least not until the attempts at censorship start...


But you probably can call someone a fascist (or hypocrite) if they censure anyone who said the accusations against Zak are false. But are totally okay with people calling him homophobic, racist, or worse.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 19, 2017, 10:21:22 PM
They'll always be after Zak because...
1. He's a successful artist outside of gaming and is completely immune to the influence of their gaming clique.
2. He has a large enough following inside gaming to be so far resistant to the influence of their gaming clique.
3. He has the audacity to hold them accountable for the things they say on social media.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 19, 2017, 11:19:37 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;946533
They'll always be after Zak because...
1. He's a successful artist outside of gaming and is completely immune to the influence of their gaming clique.
2. He has a large enough following inside gaming to be so far resistant to the influence of their gaming clique.
3. He has the audacity to hold them accountable for the things they say on social media.

You forgot the main reason: he's done porn, and intersectional feminists hate all heterosexual sex (and especially porn).

Which is Zak's tragedy, because frankly he's acted like a little piece of shit the last couple of years to tons of the people who leaped to his (and my) defense at Consultantgate. He turned on them and stabbed them in the back in a desperate series of virtue-signalling ploys to try to curry favor with the Ctrl-Left self-styled "indie avant garde" of the hobby, who he would desperately love to be a part of. Only they are never, ever going to accept him.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Opaopajr on February 20, 2017, 12:21:40 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;946495
Yeah, but we're not getting a single COOL thing out of cyberpunk, just the uber-consumerist corporate power structure, the increasingly totalitarian governments, and the ridiculously vapid and braindead social media economy.  At worst, we're gonna spend the next 50 fucking years rummaging through the various "How it Came to Pass" intro chapters of Cyberpunk games detailing economic and global collapse, ecological collapse, war, famine, choose your apocalypse.  At best the cool shit like SimSense will hit right after we're dead. :p


I told everyone, "the future will be annoying." But did they believe me? No. :rolleyes:

Go look at the movie 5th Element, or the band Sigue Sigue Sputnik. They have the right premonition all along and that's why I love them so. They herald a future where everything will set all "right-thinking, logical, progress!-minded" people's teeth on edge.

Meanwhile I'll be dancing in the dark, laughing amidst silence, singing along to the mad piping in my head of another age spilling out of time into our current space...
:D
Come join me, you know you want to!

Quote from: CRKrueger;946495
Oh well, at least we have drone assassins...which the police will no doubt be using soon to resolve hostage crises and standoff situations.


And don't those "drone assassins" look like frumpy, safety RC airplane-rejects? Like something a coalition of "mothers against youthful creativity" would mandate, so no one would nick a finger or get their hair tangled in. Isn't that amazing! It's the cyberpunk cool equivalent of washable crayons or safety scissors.
:p

Repeat it with me now, "The Future Will Be Annoying." :cool:
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Opaopajr on February 20, 2017, 12:24:21 AM
Quote from: DarcyDettmann;946471
Whitewolf Hires Zak Sabbath and Denies Harassment. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?798635-Whitewolf-Hires-Zak-Sabbath-and-Denies-Harassment)

Congratulations, Zak! Wish you the best!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 20, 2017, 12:33:30 AM
I dunno, I think my as-yet-to-be-designed game will fight facism with an ax and a big fat bundle of sticks.  Free with every PDF download.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 20, 2017, 02:20:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;946537
You forgot the main reason: he's done porn, and intersectional feminists hate all heterosexual sex (and especially porn).

Which is Zak's tragedy, because frankly he's acted like a little piece of shit the last couple of years to tons of the people who leaped to his (and my) defense at Consultantgate. He turned on them and stabbed them in the back in a desperate series of virtue-signalling ploys to try to curry favor with the Ctrl-Left self-styled "indie avant garde" of the hobby, who he would desperately love to be a part of. Only they are never, ever going to accept him.


He always seemed to be on the Left to me, but since he's not a religious zealot, he doesn't line up with anyone's political litmus test, which eventually means you'll piss off everyone.  Generally speaking I'd rather put red-hot needles through my testicles than spend time on G+, and I'd rather eat a bullet than prowl around Facebook or Twitter, so post-consultantgate I have no idea what's been going on with reddit impersonationgate or whatever the hell else has happened. Although to be honest, if I had a sick loved one people were going after, I'd probably kick it up a notch on the internet as well.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 20, 2017, 03:00:54 AM
Most creative types should limit their interactions online to the minimum to promote their work. Arguing on the net is never worth it.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 20, 2017, 04:47:09 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;946537
Which is Zak's tragedy, because frankly he's acted like a little piece of shit the last couple of years to tons of the people who leaped to his (and my) defense at Consultantgate. He turned on them and stabbed them in the back in a desperate series of virtue-signalling ploys to try to curry favor with the Ctrl-Left self-styled "indie avant garde" of the hobby, who he would desperately love to be a part of. Only they are never, ever going to accept him.

That's very unfortunate.

Zak's a great talent. Sad to hear he'd try to curry favor with a group he's so greatly surpassed.


Quote from: Opaopajr;946544
Go look at the movie 5th Element, or the band Sigue Sigue Sputnik.

Here's SSS's Love Missile video...yes...Love...Missile...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgk39i2cUj4

Damn...the 80s were so...80s.


Quote from: Opaopajr;946544
Meanwhile I'll be dancing in the dark, laughing amidst silence, singing along to the mad piping in my head of another age spilling out of time into our current space...

Amen.


Quote from: CRKrueger;946561
if I had a sick loved one people were going after, I'd probably kick it up a notch on the internet as well.

When the scum went after Mandy, they earned every drop of Zak's vitriol.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 20, 2017, 06:16:21 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;946561
... I have no idea what's been going on with reddit impersonationgate...

As someone who is neither pro nor anti Zak due to insufficient personal investment, the reddit impersonation thing looks really damning right now.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 20, 2017, 06:51:21 AM
Except why should any of us care since we only need buy and read his games?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 20, 2017, 07:24:12 AM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;946589
As someone who is neither pro nor anti Zak due to insufficient personal investment, the reddit impersonation thing looks really damning right now.

A year ago I might have sided with Zak, despite him being in the running for least charismatic asshole on the planet.

At this point, however, the collected evidence against him is overall so damning that I'd say it's very obvious he does make attempts to inspire his fans to harass other people online, and he also spends an inordinate amount of time under assumed identities online and then lies about it. So fuck him.

OTOH, people frequenting lumping Pundit and/or Desborough in with him is complete bullshit IMO.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on February 20, 2017, 08:02:48 AM
God damn it.

Quote from: DarcyDettmann;946471
Talking about Fascist doing Fascist things...

Whitewolf Hires Zak Sabbath and Denies Harassment. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?798635-Whitewolf-Hires-Zak-Sabbath-and-Denies-Harassment)


This incident really needs its own thread before it gets subsumed here and used to broaden the definition of #Fascism yet again. It's not #Fascism, and both sides have points, which is the problem, because there's always juuust enough reason to go after the other guy, despite being ostensibly on the same fucking side! And in this case the evidence is pretty damning, as either u/ZakSabbath (https://www.reddit.com/u/ZakSabbath) was impersonating u/SAppelcline (https://www.reddit.com/u/SAppelcline) or letting someone do so from his computer as a 'joke'.

Quote from: CRKrueger;946490
No, Helen Lewis believes in intersectionality and acknowledges it is an essential tool for analyzing feminism.  She is called, quote "anti-intersectionalist" because she thinks intersectionality can have practical limitations and is used as a hammer on the internet to brand people.


Speaking of practical, transwomen are not affected by the same reproductive issues cis women and transmen are, so why do so many of them feel they should have a voice there?

Quote from: CRKrueger;946495
Yeah, but we're not getting a single COOL thing out of cyberpunk, just the uber-consumerist corporate power structure, the increasingly totalitarian governments, and the ridiculously vapid and braindead social media economy.


Ah internet fame. All the disadvantages of actual fame without any of the perks.

Quote from: Opaopajr;946544
I told everyone, "the future will be annoying."


That is so true. I sometimes think a full blown apocalypse would be preferable, but then where would I return my #FrenchRoast coffee when it wasn't good enough?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 20, 2017, 08:59:31 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946597
..I'd say it's very obvious he does make attempts to inspire his fans to harass other people online...


Outside of a single tweet I've seen nothing that suggests this is true. Do you have more info?  

A lot of artists are assholes, in the past they just didn't have social media to promote that fact to the world. I try to worry about things that have real impact on the world, all the digital ink spilled on Zak and his enemies has yet t o convince me it is anything more than typical internet drama. If anything the only person most clearly harrassed and wronged has been Mandy Morbid.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on February 20, 2017, 09:12:46 AM
I haven't been following much of anything on social media lately, so I am way out of the loop on this one. But this one also goes back to stuff that people were complaining about several years ago. And I remember all the consultant-gate nonsense. All I know is when people tell me not to buy this person's stuff, not to listen to this band, not to watch this movie, because it/they are so awful for some reason, my instinct is to completely ignore what those people have to say on anything. If people don't want to buy something Zak made, that is fine. Telling me I shouldn't because you have a problem with him, bothers me. And generally I am just not a fan of these organized boycotts that go after peoples' livelihood and ability to function in an industry.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 20, 2017, 09:16:57 AM
Notably it is always the same small number of people recyling the same, often completely debunked claims. Without the web this shit would go nowhere.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 20, 2017, 09:19:17 AM
Quote from: Voros;946602
Outside of a single tweet I've seen nothing that suggests this is true. Do you have more info?

Yeah:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-fhRQ-CUAAupr3.png)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-fhYTXCYAACT9D.png)

The first one I saw a while ago, and took Zak's word at face value that it wasn't how it was being interpreted.  As of the second one, I no longer feel any excuses for the first one hold up. There's a mounting amount of testimony as well (which isn't direct evidence, but the David Hill story is pretty horrifying)

Quote
A lot of artists are assholes

Sure. I can be the assholiest of assholes. But Zak hasn't done anything that I'd personally even bother making excuses for him. I don't care about the OSR, so to me he's just an asshole online. I have no knowledge of the harassment of Mandy Morbid, or even know what she does in the hobby outside of being Zak's girlfriend.


But note, I was pretty vocally opposed to consultant gate, I'm not going to try and get him fired, write angry letters, or even encourage a boycott of a product I wouldn't have bought anyways. He's not a nazi or child molestor, I'm not saying anyone who enjoys his work should feel bad about it or not buy stuff he's involved with.

All I'm saying is I think he's a shitty person and I don't care if other people say shitty things about him, now that I've been reasonably convinced those shitty things are true.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 20, 2017, 10:08:30 AM
The first one refers to the scuzzy failingfoward blog post that popped up on Metafilter. He's telling people to destroy Metafilter? Pretty weak.

The second is definitely a dick move but the follow-up suggests he wants people to 'debate' this guy. A stupid proposal on the net but how is that any different than RPGPundit posting links to those he disagrees with in a blog post? And from what I've seen Zak doesn't refer to others online as 'cunts' or the like.

The David Hill story is terrible but the attempts by Hill to connect it directly to Zak are very, very weak (as in his literally has nothing except that the phone call came from LA). Seems to me that some 4chan Gamergate mouthbreather took it upon himself to stalk and freak Hill out. Zak put out a request that no one harrass anyone. Hill claims the request was jokey and only referred to his kids but as usual that doesn't match at all the actual tweet I've seen.

The unnamed transgender 'gamedesigner' (aka. Makin) who Zak and Mandy supposedly harrassed out of the hobby was a well known SA troll who insulted her viciously because she was a sex worker. Mandy wrote about her trolling, not being aware they were a transgender woman, and has since been accused of 'deadnaming' and outing them. This is such a disingenous argument on its face it tells you where they're coming from: they are willing to twist the truth and lie to 'win' their internet drama. Whenever one looks into their claims you find either fabrication or a half-truth at best.

Basically if Zak is a scumbag those attacking him are at least as bad (and due to the insulting treatment of Mandy I would argue they are worse).  

Best thing would be if a legit reporter (aka. not VICE) from a real newsource looked into the whole thing. It has enough contemporary relevance (porn, nerd culture, internet trolling) that it has a hook. The standards of real reporting would expose the 'story' for the 90 percent bullshit it is.

I only looked into things because I liked Red and Pleasant Land and wanted to find out if the accusations were true. After confirming they were mostly bullshit I bought Maze of the Blue Medusa which is also rather good. Vornheim I find merely okay.

Now that I've confirmed it is a tempest in a (very small) teacup I'm more than happy to ignore it myself. Being an asshole is not a crime.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 20, 2017, 10:56:32 AM
Inciting people to "ask questions"...

"Oh the humanity, things we say are being scrutinized, we have to answer for what we say, someone make it stop!"
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 20, 2017, 11:34:23 AM
Quote from: Voros;946619
He's telling people to destroy Metafilter? Pretty weak.

The second is definitely a dick move but the follow-up suggests he wants people to 'debate' this guy.

Quote from: CRKrueger
Inciting people to "ask questions"...

Yes, I'm sure that's what he meant. Just as I'm sure it was someone else pretending to be another writer in the industry for a year, who just happens to use the same computer as Zak.

Quote
but how is that any different than RPGPundit posting links to those he disagrees with in a blog post?

How is it the same?

Quote
And from what I've seen Zak doesn't refer to others online as 'cunts' or the like.

Yeah, Zak's a regular modern day Emily Post, a bastion of etiquette who would never insult anyone or call them names.


Quote
The David Hill story is terrible but the attempts by Hill to connect it directly to Zak are very, very weak (as in his literally has nothing except that the phone call came from LA). Seems to me that some 4chan Gamergate mouthbreather took it upon himself to stalk and freak Hill out. Zak put out a request that no one harrass anyone. Hill claims the request was jokey and only referred to his kids but as usual that doesn't match at all the actual tweet I've seen.

I don't know David Hill from Adam, so I've no comment on the veracity of it, which is why I said such stories weren't direct evidence of anything, but they also don't exist in isolation. So, I don't see any reason not to believe Hill, and at the same time I see lots of reasons not to believe Zak.

Quote
Basically if Zak is a scumbag those attacking him are at least as bad

I'd take that on a case by case basis, but I'm inclined to agree. But when there's a shitslinging fest between two pieces of shit, there's not much point in defending one or the other because you just tend to end up with shit on you.

Quote
(and due to the insulting treatment of Mandy I would argue they are worse).

Again, not sure who they are, and as I've said, I've got no knowledge of Mandy other than that blurb you wrote about her having a debacle with a trans person.

Quote
Best thing would be if a legit reporter from a real newsource looked into the whole thing.

Do those still exist? And if so, is rpg drama actually newsworthy to anyone outside of the hobby?

"HEADLINE: ASSHOLE GEEK WHO PLAYS D&D ARGUES WITH OTHER ASSHOLE GEEKS ABOUT HOW MUCH OF AN ASSHOLE HE IS"
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 20, 2017, 12:05:11 PM
@Tristam - I've seen so much supposed Zak harassment be basically just questions...questions people won't answer, and won't clarify.  So yeah, I think it's possible that's exactly what he meant - the idea that questioning someone and holding them to account for their posts is harassment is what's wrong with social media.  People want the publicity, validation and money-generating ability that comes with a large social circle, but want to have the protections of private communication no matter how wide their reach.  Well, it don't work that way.

It's certainly possible Zak's become as much of the problem as the people he confronts, that tends to happen to people.  However, without doing my own research, I can assure you I'm not going to be moved by a couple of isolated tweets on purple.  I've seen so many tweets on other issues taken ridiculously out of context, when the obvious true meaning could be determined by going a couple back and a couple forward, that it's obvious the intention was to misrepresent.

In other words, I consider the source.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 20, 2017, 12:34:26 PM
Quote from: Voros;946619

Best thing would be if a legit reporter (aka. not VICE) from a real newsource looked into the whole thing. It has enough contemporary relevance (porn, nerd culture, internet trolling) that it has a hook. The standards of real reporting would expose the 'story' for the 90 percent bullshit it is.


I have no such faith in "real reporting", not after everything I've seen in the past three years.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 20, 2017, 12:49:54 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946639


"HEADLINE: ASSHOLE GEEK WHO PLAYS D&D ARGUES WITH OTHER ASSHOLE GEEKS ABOUT HOW MUCH OF AN ASSHOLE HE IS"


Consider Gamergate which basically boiled down to an ex-boyfriend whining online that his ex-girlfriend cheated on him.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 20, 2017, 01:40:50 PM
Quote from: Voros;946653
Consider Gamergate which basically boiled down to an ex-boyfriend whining online that his ex-girlfriend cheated on him.

Not really. That's just one of the instigating factors. But GG is also a dead horse thats not worth beating at this point
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 20, 2017, 01:41:20 PM
Honestly, from my interactions with him, I'm not gonna smear his products because I have not played them, but he seems like a typical primadonna social media asshole. Fortunately for him, he managed to get decent product and a proper controversy shine with I Hit It With My Axe, which catapulted him to what passes for celebrity in the RPG/indie artist section, or he'd be in the same basement as Maliszewski and rest of the OSR Drama Brigade.

I mean, I don't really care who's right or wrong at this point in that debacle, as it's all Big Brother style reality TV bullshit for me.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 20, 2017, 01:44:34 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;946644
@Tristam - I've seen so much supposed Zak harassment be basically just questions...questions people won't answer, and won't clarify.  So yeah, I think it's possible that's exactly what he meant - the idea that questioning someone and holding them to account for their posts is harassment is what's wrong with social media.  People want the publicity, validation and money-generating ability that comes with a large social circle, but want to have the protections of private communication no matter how wide their reach.  Well, it don't work that way.

It's certainly possible Zak's become as much of the problem as the people he confronts, that tends to happen to people.  However, without doing my own research, I can assure you I'm not going to be moved by a couple of isolated tweets on purple.  I've seen so many tweets on other issues taken ridiculously out of context, when the obvious true meaning could be determined by going a couple back and a couple forward, that it's obvious the intention was to misrepresent.

In other words, I consider the source.


Thats fair enough, but Ive come to my own conclusions for the time being.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Alzrius on February 20, 2017, 02:10:03 PM
Honestly, I lost respect for Zak when he started casually badmouthing Desborough - who is one of the nicest people I've seen online - and then explained that he was being an asshole because that's what some of the women in his life thought about the guy, and so he (Zak) was just parroting their opinion because sexism is "one of those things that boys don't get to decide for themselves."

Being an asshole is bad, but being an asshole for such a fucking stupid reason is inexcusable.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Catulle on February 20, 2017, 02:28:15 PM
Quote from: Alzrius;946677
Honestly, I lost respect for Zak when he started casually badmouthing Desborough - who is one of the nicest people I've seen online...


Grim's one of the nicest people I've met in person, too, but that didn't stop him harassing my wife way back in the days of yore. People; they're multifaceted, ain't they?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: bat on February 20, 2017, 02:30:46 PM
Jack's reply on page 20 at Big Purple is extremely damning and if one follows zak's logic then zak himself is a nothing more than a lying liar that must be disregarded.

Hey, his words, his theory, his logic. I just think he's a stooge that is decent at illustration and a great writer, but has some issues he needs to have tended to.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Alzrius on February 20, 2017, 02:37:50 PM
Quote from: Catulle;946678
Grim's one of the nicest people I've met in person, too, but that didn't stop him harassing my wife way back in the days of yore. People; they're multifaceted, ain't they?

You've been pushing this line for a while now (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?482661-Harassment-in-gaming/page64&p=6882523&viewfull=1#post6882523). But other than saying he was trying to drive her out of a LARP, you never seem to provide any details, let alone proof.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Catulle on February 20, 2017, 05:59:38 PM
Quote from: Alzrius;946683
You've been pushing this line for a while now (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?482661-Harassment-in-gaming/page64&p=6882523&viewfull=1#post6882523). But other than saying he was trying to drive her out of a LARP, you never seem to provide any details, let alone proof.

I don't really need to, do I, this being the context of a chat over beers? I certainly don't feel like he needs to be driven out of the industry; I thought Agents of SWING is a great game, and have said so on t'other site, though you don't seem to have gone mining for that quote.

My point was simply that:
1) He was fine with me, face-to-face, A+ would roleplay with again
2) He also did some shitty things to my wife out of the public view
3) This makes for a more complex picture than "Good People are Good, Bad People are Bad"

Even if, due to my moral calculus weighting Factor 2 over Factor 1 (which is a personal decision), I'm not going to support him in the future (unless he decides in a moment of reflection to address those past wrongs, to which we aren't necessarily entitled) and that determination on my part neither makes people who reckon otherwise my enemies, nor does it mean they don't deserve the small amount of personal perspective I can add to the situation.


ETA: It is also not lost on me that laying out this perspective on t'other-other site (you know, the one with the policy of not launching PAs on game designers (that they like)) is a recipe for disaster, and that's a bit sad.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 20, 2017, 06:32:02 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946597
A year ago I might have sided with Zak, despite him being in the running for least charismatic asshole on the planet.

At this point, however, the collected evidence against him is overall so damning that I'd say it's very obvious he does make attempts to inspire his fans to harass other people online, and he also spends an inordinate amount of time under assumed identities online and then lies about it. So fuck him.

OTOH, people frequenting lumping Pundit and/or Desborough in with him is complete bullshit IMO.


True. I don't sockpuppet.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Opaopajr on February 20, 2017, 06:54:34 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;946587
Here's SSS's Love Missile video...yes...Love...Missile...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgk39i2cUj4

Needs more Joan Jett & Britney Spears!
(SSS & Joan & Britney all love Rock 'n Roll!)

:D Don't turn away, there is no escape! Look at it! :D You know you love it! :cool:

"The Future Shall Be Annoying!" -- opaopajr
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Alzrius on February 20, 2017, 06:57:57 PM
Quote from: Catulle;946706
I don't really need to, do I, this being the context of a chat over beers?

I was thinking that this was the context of posting on a messageboard. That said, you don't "need to" post proof of your claims, but if you want them to be taken as having more weight than "listen and believe" nonsense, it's something that you're going to want to have.

Quote
I certainly don't feel like he needs to be driven out of the industry; I thought Agents of SWING is a great game, and have said so on t'other site, though you don't seem to have gone mining for that quote.

Just so you know, "quote mining" is the practice of taking a quote out of context to make it appear to be saying something other than what the speaker intended, which isn't the case here.

Quote
My point was simply that:
1) He was fine with me, face-to-face, A+ would roleplay with again
2) He also did some shitty things to my wife out of the public view
3) This makes for a more complex picture than "Good People are Good, Bad People are Bad"

And that's fine, but my take on the situation is that:
1) He was fine with me and everyone else I've seen him interact with.
2) You've demonstrated a partisan bias against his beliefs and affiliations (e.g. indicting him for saying that rape is a legitimate narrative element), and have refused to clarify exactly what this alleged harassment was about, let alone provide anything in support of it.
3) This makes you being untruthful seem just as plausible, possibly even more plausible, than your accusation having merit.

Quote
Even if, due to my moral calculus weighting Factor 2 over Factor 1 (which is a personal decision), I'm not going to support him in the future (unless he decides in a moment of reflection to address those past wrongs, to which we aren't necessarily entitled) and that determination on my part neither makes people who reckon otherwise my enemies, nor does it mean they don't deserve the small amount of personal perspective I can add to the situation.

I agree that it doesn't make people who don't agree with you your enemies, but the issue of them "deserving" your personal perspective is skewed, because your perspective is not inherently presumed to be legitimate when making an accusation. For all I know, you're making it up or wildly distorting the facts of the matter, particularly since you won't contextualize what you're saying or even try to back it up.

Quote
ETA: It is also not lost on me that laying out this perspective on t'other-other site (you know, the one with the policy of not launching PAs on game designers (that they like)) is a recipe for disaster, and that's a bit sad.

Yeah, zealots don't deal with moderate positions very well. But conversely, a moderate opinion isn't necessarily one that's any less deserving of criticism.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Catulle on February 20, 2017, 07:31:58 PM
Quote from: Alzrius;946717
2) You've demonstrated a partisan bias against his beliefs and affiliations (e.g. indicting him for saying that rape is a legitimate narrative element), and have refused to clarify exactly what this alleged harassment was about, let alone provide anything in support of it.
3) This makes you being untruthful seem just as plausible, possibly even more plausible, than your accusation having merit.

Go you, you free spirit, you.

I think you may misunderstand what "partisan" means if what you're aiming at is "prejudicial" - unlike you, it appears, I have direct experience of the chap and contemporary witnesses that have shaped my judgements dating back over a decade. If anything, this is the weakness of my position, in that people learn and develop and I may have failed to keep up with this. I don't think feeding somebody else to the internet hate machine that was employed against her in the first place is, somehow, a good idea, especially not to win internet points against whoever-the-fuck you are.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Alzrius on February 20, 2017, 07:41:46 PM
Quote from: Catulle;946727
Go you, you free spirit, you.

You're not doing snark very well, mate.

Quote
I think you may misunderstand what "partisan" means if what you're aiming at is "prejudicial" - unlike you, it appears, I have direct experience of the chap and contemporary witnesses that have shaped my judgements dating back over a decade.

Again, this is you trying to establish credibility for your position without demonstrating it. You're referencing a body of experiences and witnesses without making even a fig leaf attempt to produce them; in fact, the issue of "witnesses" represents an inflation of what you supposedly have, but cannot demonstrate.

Quote
If anything, this is the weakness of my position, in that people learn and develop and I may have failed to keep up with this. I don't think feeding somebody else to the internet hate machine that was employed against her in the first place is, somehow, a good idea, especially not to win internet points against whoever-the-fuck you are.

Your position has many weaknesses, not the least of which is the hypocrisy of claiming to not want to feed someone else to the "internet hate machine" while firmly doubling down on your allegations of wrongdoing (even as you refuse to substantiate them). That's a hypocritical position to take, particularly since you're continuing to advocate for your (entirely baseless) position even as you attempt to say that it's not worth advocating, since it's just a question of "winning internet points."

You've gone from having no evidence to openly contradicting yourself, and in doing so making your claims look even less credible. If you're really as unconcerned as you claim to be, then it might be time to seriously consider cutting your losses...or even trying to prove your allegations.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: thedungeondelver on February 20, 2017, 08:11:00 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;946716
Needs more Joan Jett & Britney Spears!
(SSS & Joan & Britney all love Rock 'n Roll!)

:D Don't turn away, there is no escape! Look at it! :D You know you love it! :cool:

"The Future Shall Be Annoying!" -- opaopajr


"I am the ULTIMATE PRODUCT!"

SSS always makes me smile.  I'd never heard this mashup before; thank you so much for dropping it here.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 21, 2017, 02:34:19 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946669
Not really. That's just one of the instigating factors. But GG is also a dead horse thats not worth beating at this point


Was it...Really about ethics in games journalism?? :D
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 21, 2017, 02:45:42 AM
Quote from: Alzrius;946683
You've been pushing this line for a while now (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?482661-Harassment-in-gaming/page64&p=6882523&viewfull=1#post6882523). But other than saying he was trying to drive her out of a LARP, you never seem to provide any details, let alone proof.

To be fair how would one provide 'proof' of such a thing? The accusations against Zak are different because people are claiming to be 'harassed' online where a trail can be tracked. Except whenever you look into the few examples actually given all you find is that Zak is a typically argumentative internet 'expert' and his accusers are either self-righteous and thin skinned or outright abusive themselves.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Warboss Squee on February 21, 2017, 03:02:42 AM
Quote from: Voros;946796
To be fair how would one provide 'proof' of such a thing? The accusations against Zak are different because people are claiming to be 'harassed' online where a trail can be tracked. Except whenever you look into the few examples actually given all you find is that Zak is a typically argumentative internet 'expert' and his accusers are either self-righteous and thin skinned or outright abusive themselves.

Well, the screenshot of him impersonating Shannon Applicine(?) is pretty damning.

Until you realize that it's being presented by people that have gone out of their way to lie before. Might very well be God's Own Truth. But cry wolf enough, and there's no one to help you when your leg's being gnawed off.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 21, 2017, 03:16:27 AM
No I believe he was sockpuppeting. Don't really care though. When a brilliant historian like Orlando Figes stoops to sockpuppeting to give his own books good reviews on Amazon it is both amazing and pathetic. That kind of unbridled ego is a common component of talented creative types.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 21, 2017, 03:47:11 AM
Quote from: Voros;946805
No I believe he was sockpuppeting. Don't really care though. When a brilliant historian like Orlando Figes stoops to sockpuppeting to give his own books good reviews on Amazon it is both amazing and pathetic. That kind of unbridled ego is a common component of talented creative types.

That's genuinely both funny and scary, as you have to think why'd a guy who wrote one of the definite introductions to the subject of Russian Revolution in English language (introduction, bear in mind, not necessarily the most comprehensive study) has to sockpuppet ratings for his work.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;946802
Well, the screenshot of him impersonating Shannon Applicine(?) is pretty damning.

Until you realize that it's being presented by people that have gone out of their way to lie before. Might very well be God's Own Truth. But cry wolf enough, and there's no one to help you when your leg's being gnawed off.


Yes, and a man's true measure is the firmness of his handshake, and cleanliness is next to godliness, if we're using Common Wisdom as political analytical tools now.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 21, 2017, 06:59:39 AM
Quote from: Voros;946792
Was it...Really about ethics in games journalism?? :D

You do realize there are a lot of people who will quickly throw you into the Gamergate camp whether you like it or not because you are posting on the RPGPundit's forum in partial defense of Zak S, right?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Alzrius on February 21, 2017, 08:29:59 AM
Quote from: Voros;946796
To be fair how would one provide 'proof' of such a thing? The accusations against Zak are different because people are claiming to be 'harassed' online where a trail can be tracked. Except whenever you look into the few examples actually given all you find is that Zak is a typically argumentative internet 'expert' and his accusers are either self-righteous and thin skinned or outright abusive themselves.


That's sort of the thing, though; the definition of "harassment" has become so stretched and mutilated that it now refers virtually to any acrimonious interaction. The result is that any such indictment needs to be backed up with more than an assertion of "it was harassment" now. There needs to be an actual demonstration (or at least a more detailed allegation) of the nature of the purported wrongdoing. Otherwise, we're back to "listen and believe" territory, which I find to be far more pernicious.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 21, 2017, 09:03:28 AM
Quote from: Voros;946792
Was it...Really about ethics in games journalism?? :D


It really was a hashtag, used by thousands of people with different goals and motivations, and a scapegoat used by hundreds of others to perpetuate their agenda, and it really was a clusterfuck that nowadays is only brought up to spread a narrative
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on February 21, 2017, 09:47:32 AM
HEY! Remember that thread I was banned in? Well one of the things I pointed out was how the only difference between what #KateBullock and #ZakSmith urge people to do is she didn't identify the targets by name. But if you don't do that, then the chances of hitting the wrong target for the wrong reasons go up even more. And when you target whole groups you only end up hurting the most vulnerable and least privileged among them.

Quote from: Voros;946619
The unnamed transgender 'gamedesigner' (aka. Makin) who Zak and Mandy supposedly harrassed out of the hobby was a well known SA troll who insulted her viciously because she was a sex worker.


Mikan also wasn't chased out of the hobby, and the whole 'outing' thing is bullshit. Here's #SomethingAwful connecting three of her alias' (https://archive.is/VMgXK#selection-541.54-541.117). Here's her friend and defender #JacobRandolph connecting three more (https://archive.is/7dMCh). And here's the page for the book they wrote together on #DriveThruRPG (https://archive.is/gLYZf).

So claiming that's some big secret is a bit of a stretch.

Quote from: CRKrueger;946644
It's certainly possible Zak's become as much of the problem as the people he confronts, that tends to happen to people.


Dear god does it ever.

And if you're not constantly second guessing yourself to make sure you don't, then fuuuuuuu...

Quote from: CRKrueger;946644
In other words, I consider the source.


Hopefully multiple.

Quote from: Catulle;946706
I don't really need to, do I, this being the context of a chat over beers? I certainly don't feel like he needs to be driven out of the industry; I thought Agents of SWING is a great game, and have said so on t'other site, though you don't seem to have gone mining for that quote.

My point was simply that:
1) He was fine with me, face-to-face, A+ would roleplay with again
2) He also did some shitty things to my wife out of the public view
3) This makes for a more complex picture than "Good People are Good, Bad People are Bad"

Even if, due to my moral calculus weighting Factor 2 over Factor 1 (which is a personal decision), I'm not going to support him in the future (unless he decides in a moment of reflection to address those past wrongs, to which we aren't necessarily entitled) and that determination on my part neither makes people who reckon otherwise my enemies, nor does it mean they don't deserve the small amount of personal perspective I can add to the situation.


ETA: It is also not lost on me that laying out this perspective on t'other-other site (you know, the one with the policy of not launching PAs on game designers (that they like)) is a recipe for disaster, and that's a bit sad.


If only more people had this outlook.

Quote from: Alzrius;946717
I was thinking that this was the context of posting on a messageboard. That said, you don't "need to" post proof of your claims, but if you want them to be taken as having more weight than "listen and believe" nonsense, it's something that you're going to want to have.


I don't think they have an agenda here, so they don't need to be believed.

On the other hand, what's your agenda? What do you want us to believe?

Quote from: Alzrius;946729
You're not doing snark very well, mate.


And yet you made this comment :D

Quote from: Alzrius;946729
this is you trying to establish credibility for your position without demonstrating it.


What position is that exactly?

Quote from: Alzrius;946729
Your position has many weaknesses, not the least of which is the hypocrisy of claiming to not want to feed someone else to the "internet hate machine" while firmly doubling down on your allegations of wrongdoing (even as you refuse to substantiate them).


The #InternetHateMachine takes whatever it wants anyway. So as long as nobody is explicitly calling for anyone to get harassed, assaulted, fired, or imprisoned, I'm good.

Quote from: Voros;946796
To be fair how would one provide 'proof' of such a thing?


Good question.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Alzrius on February 21, 2017, 10:00:18 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;946826
I don't think they have an agenda here, so they don't need to be believed.

Oh, they definitely don't need to be believed.

Quote
On the other hand, what's your agenda? What do you want us to believe?

So you're able to divine that someone else doesn't have an agenda, but I do? What amazing powers will you demonstrate next, Professor X?

What I want isn't for people to believe anything; I want them to recognize that allegations of wrongdoing have a burden of proof that need to be met, at least if they want to have a reasonable expectation of strangers taking such an indictment seriously, and that there's nothing wrong with pointing that out.

Quote
And yet you made this comment :D

Yeah, because it wasn't snark, it was a statement of fact.

Quote
What position is that exactly?

That if you want to reference a specific incident to impugn someone's character, you're going to need say more than just "They did something bad one time."

Quote
The #InternetHateMachine takes whatever it wants anyway. So as long as nobody is explicitly calling for anyone to get harassed, assaulted, fired, or imprisoned, I'm good.

Talking about advocating (explicitly or otherwise) for someone to do something immoral - or even illegal - is a different conversation. This is about what you need to bring to the table if you want an accusation of moral transgression to be given due consideration.

Quote
Good question.

Actually it's a question in search of a good answer.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: bat on February 21, 2017, 10:50:24 AM
Quote from: Voros;946796
To be fair how would one provide 'proof' of such a thing? The accusations against Zak are different because people are claiming to be 'harassed' online where a trail can be tracked. Except whenever you look into the few examples actually given all you find is that Zak is a typically argumentative internet 'expert' and his accusers are either self-righteous and thin skinned or outright abusive themselves.


Like when he and I got into it? I watched an Axe video in which a handful of porn actresses were bragging about their scenes in movies. I am not a prude, but I had, at that time, a friend that came over to play D&D with his two preteens and ALL I did was ask zak to put a disclaimer on his videos. He replied that he would not because he didn't believe in censorship. I stepped down from TARGA and some other guy freaked out on zak for something else at the same time, and 'osrgate' happened. Which was rather lame because for a DIY hobby you don't need a lot of organization or help anyway. But he HAD to 'mark his territory' I suppose. I have never gone after Mandy or said anything against her, my own fiancee has a laundry list of ailments, if I sympathize with them on anything, it is that, nobody should be in chronic pain and misery, some people are, and that is truly a shame.

I was even fair and told a co-worker about Axe, a young guy that played Pathfinder with friends. He watched Axe and made a comment somewhere along the lines of 'you guys don't really look like you know what you are doing'. Now HE got censored, his comment stricken and called a troll. No conversation, no please explain, and he wasn't put up to it, I asked for a fair assessment.

I am nearing fifty, I don't care about ethics in gaming journalism, virtue signalling or social justice in roleplaying games. I DO think people can be decent to each other and try to see another person's point of view without shutting them out for your own ego.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 21, 2017, 11:06:14 AM
Quote from: bat;946835
Like when he and I got into it? I watched an Axe video in which a handful of porn actresses were bragging about their scenes in movies. I am not a prude, but I had, at that time, a friend that came over to play D&D with his two preteens and ALL I did was ask zak to put a disclaimer on his videos. He replied that he would not because he didn't believe in censorship. I stepped down from TARGA and some other guy freaked out on zak for something else at the same time, and 'osrgate' happened. Which was rather lame because for a DIY hobby you don't need a lot of organization or help anyway. But he HAD to 'mark his territory' I suppose. I have never gone after Mandy or said anything against her, my own fiancee has a laundry list of ailments, if I sympathize with them on anything, it is that, nobody should be in chronic pain and misery, some people are, and that is truly a shame.

I was even fair and told a co-worker about Axe, a young guy that played Pathfinder with friends. He watched Axe and made a comment somewhere along the lines of 'you guys don't really look like you know what you are doing'. Now HE got censored, his comment stricken and called a troll. No conversation, no please explain, and he wasn't put up to it, I asked for a fair assessment.

I am nearing fifty, I don't care about ethics in gaming journalism, virtue signalling or social justice in roleplaying games. I DO think people can be decent to each other and try to see another person's point of view without shutting them out for your own ego.


All I'll say is, from a site called D&D With Pornstars, where a bunch of adult actors sit around and talk, I'd expect nearly everything to contain an adult only reference at some point.  I mean you get cops playing together, there is going to be sidetalk about copstuff, you get surgeons playing together, there is going to be sidetalk about surgeonstuff, you get pornstars playing together there is going to be sidetalk about pornstuff.

I mean really, what the heck did you expect him to do?  Take the time to put a disclaimer on EVERYTHING or have you realize videos with pornstars hanging out might get a bit adult?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: bat on February 21, 2017, 11:18:04 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;946839
All I'll say is, from a site called D&D With Pornstars, where a bunch of adult actors sit around and talk, I'd expect nearly everything to contain an adult only reference at some point.  I mean you get cops playing together, there is going to be sidetalk about copstuff, you get surgeons playing together, there is going to be sidetalk about surgeonstuff, you get pornstars playing together there is going to be sidetalk about pornstuff.

I mean really, what the heck did you expect him to do?  Take the time to put a disclaimer on EVERYTHING or have you realize videos with pornstars hanging out might get a bit adult?

I Hit It With My Axe was not hosted on his blog firstly. zak's blog HAS a disclaimer, you must acknowledge there is adult content before going there. Is asking for a disclaimer too much? Well, apparently it is. I made firearms and explosives for 17 years, yet somehow was able to play D&D with co-workers and not mention a single .22.

I guess another approach is this- If someone were to raise a concern to you, what do you do, listen and consider their side and engage in a conversation or immediately just tell them, 'No, not happening.' ? If a logical reason to not have a disclaimer on the videos on the Escapist could be given then the ball was in my court. But I was just shut down because......
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 21, 2017, 11:31:42 AM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;946811
You do realize there are a lot of people who will quickly throw you into the Gamergate camp whether you like it or not because you are posting on the RPGPundit's forum in partial defense of Zak S, right?

 Oh my! :eek:
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 21, 2017, 11:34:41 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946821
It really was a hashtag, used by thousands of people with different goals and motivations, and a scapegoat used by hundreds of others to perpetuate their agenda, and it really was a clusterfuck that nowadays is only brought up to spread a narrative

Sorry you've mistaken me for someone who could give a fuck about anything to do with GG or the associated nerddrama.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 21, 2017, 12:21:02 PM
Quote from: Voros;946846
Sorry you've mistaken me for someone who could give a fuck about anything to do with GG or the associated nerddrama.


...He says after bringing it up
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 21, 2017, 12:56:50 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946856
...He says after bringing it up


The worst part is we probably look like GG partisans just for trying to push back with a little nuance. Doesn't matter if I deplored the harassment campaign and rolled my eyes at the true believers, the mere suggestion that not everyone that got slapped with that label willy-nilly was a brownshirt makes me a brownshirt too.

... kind of how trying to be investigative and critical-minded about Zak's predicaments over the years makes you a harasser by proxy, or posting on the Pundit's forum makes you an alt-right enabler.

Quote from: Voros
Oh my!


You don't notice any irony at all?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 21, 2017, 01:05:46 PM
yeah the guilt-by-association thing has gotten astoundingly popular in a way I havent seen since Mccarthyism.  Irony that...the communists are now the witchhunters.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: blackstone on February 21, 2017, 02:05:11 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946862
yeah the guilt-by-association thing has gotten astoundingly popular in a way I havent seen since Mccarthyism.  Irony that...the communists are now the witchhunters.

Ironic?

-the purges of Lenin
-the purges of Stalin
-the Killing Fields of Cambodia.
-the Chinese Cultural Revolution

Shall I go on?

The Commies perfected the "Witchhunt". Don't be an apologist for those motherfuckers.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on February 21, 2017, 02:16:27 PM
Okay, I'm totally lost now. Who the fuck is Zak S. and why are we discussing GamerGate all of a sudden?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 21, 2017, 02:37:56 PM
Quote from: blackstone;946870
Ironic?

-the purges of Lenin
-the purges of Stalin
-the Killing Fields of Cambodia.
-the Chinese Cultural Revolution

Shall I go on?

The Commies perfected the "Witchhunt". Don't be an apologist for those motherfuckers.

Fair point. And I wouldnt at any point want to give the impression I'm playing apologist for the marxists/communists. I see them as the biggest prevalent threat to Western civilization.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 21, 2017, 02:43:55 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;946873
Okay, I'm totally lost now. Who the fuck is Zak S. and why are we discussing GamerGate all of a sudden?

Zak S is an OSR author/artist and apparently did/does porn. He's a controversial figure in online gaming circles because of his abrasive personality  and moral grandstanding. There has been a number of claims over that he and/or his fans serially harass anyone he dislikes and the recent announcement that he was hired by White Wolf has sent TBP into a hizzy.

Voros brought up Gamergate.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 21, 2017, 07:27:43 PM
Zak S wrote Vornheim. It is an impressive sourcebook for running city adventures.

Worth a look.
http://www.lotfp.com/store/?route=product/product&product_id=67

He also wrote A Red and Pleasant Land setting based on Alice in Wonderland that has been very positively reviewed.
It's on my eventual to-buy list.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 22, 2017, 03:40:32 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946856
...He says after bringing it up

I brought it up in passing and joking manner as an example of a trival internet drama garnering major press attention and continued to make light of it as you and Shipyard have insisted on treating it all as serious as cancer. Games are serious business. :rolleyes:
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 22, 2017, 06:57:25 AM
Quote from: Voros;946985
... and continued to make light of it as you and Shipyard have insisted on treating it all as serious as cancer. Games are serious business. :rolleyes:

I'll admit I'm not sure how to respond now. Part of me just wants to let it go and say you're right, it's all a crockery storm and neither I nor anyone I know personally has been affected directly by it yet. I play so-called-SJW games and SJW-dissaproved games freely, I don't have many conservative beliefs and I don't spend time on the social media platforms that are most heavily targeted by authoritarian left meddling.

But systematic harassment, bomb threats, the erosion of trust in the media, people getting shoved into the controversy against their intent, and brazen ideologues using all these things to peddle censorious social-control propaganda that is then used to justify crackdowns on artistic and internet freedom... that's pretty serious even if nobody dies.

In some ways I see the whole sordid saga as a microcosm reflection of the Trump election, and as you can tell from my sig I'm not happy about that. Nobody took him seriously until suddenly we all have to.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Rincewind1 on February 22, 2017, 10:22:04 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;946880
Fair point. And I wouldnt at any point want to give the impression I'm playing apologist for the marxists/communists. I see them as the biggest prevalent threat to Western civilization.

You misspelled American/Corporate imperialism ;). Marxists right now are a bunch of college kids whom almost nobody gives a fuck anymore, even anarchists far outnumber them, and unless China starts to fund communist parties, not much'll change in that department, as they are an only country that still pays lip service to Marx and matters in global politics (unless you honestly think North Korea is capable of anything else but collapsing if pushed too hard). Corporations with backing of American government, however, are right now having pretty much a free ride, because if you push back too hard, well, they still have all the might of Uncle Sam behind them to call, if necessary.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 22, 2017, 04:00:42 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;947021
You misspelled American/Corporate imperialism ;). Marxists right now are a bunch of college kids whom almost nobody gives a fuck anymore, even anarchists far outnumber them, and unless China starts to fund communist parties, not much'll change in that department, as they are an only country that still pays lip service to Marx and matters in global politics (unless you honestly think North Korea is capable of anything else but collapsing if pushed too hard). Corporations with backing of American government, however, are right now having pretty much a free ride, because if you push back too hard, well, they still have all the might of Uncle Sam behind them to call, if necessary.

I wish they were just a bunch of disgruntled college students, likely to grow up as soon as they were out and forced to deal with the real world, and self-absorbed tumblr pseudo-activists. Unfortunately, the news over the last two years has led to to a much different conclusion. From the cover-ups of pedophile rings and mass rapes, to what can only be described as child abuse by adults in charge of education, I see an ongoing pervasive attack on moral decency in the name of social justice virtue signalling. And the big problem is that I'm not sure if the people doing the pushing back, such as Trump's camp, are actually any better.

But youre correct, the ongoing corporatization of Western civilization is a prevalent ongoing tide that for all intents has already won. But in that case, at least, I have hope in new technology eventually making them obsolete as a ruling class.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on February 22, 2017, 04:06:37 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;947085
...From the cover-ups of pedophile rings and mass rapes...

Where are you getting this paranoid bullshit?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on February 22, 2017, 04:08:42 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;947085
But your correct, the ongoing corporatization of Western civilization is a prevalent ongoing tide that for all intents has already won. But in that case, at least, I have hope in new technology eventually making them obsolete as a ruling class.
I'm afraid it will just speed up.  For a long time now, Political parties  have been able to stay in power by fragmenting the various constituencies and pitting them against each other over Culture War issues, getting them to vote against their own economic interest.  Corporations now do the same thing with countries, playing the various political factions against each other, buying politician that will vote against the economic interest of their constituencies as well as the nation.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ulairi on February 22, 2017, 04:24:11 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;947089
I'm afraid it will just speed up.  For a long time now, Political parties  have been able to stay in power by fragmenting the various constituencies and pitting them against each other over Culture War issues, getting them to vote against their own economic interest.  Corporations now do the same thing with countries, playing the various political factions against each other, buying politician that will vote against the economic interest of their constituencies as well as the nation.

the problem with your line of thought is that it leads down the road to totalitarianism. You don't know what is someone else's economic interest. Secondly, economics is a pseudoscience. Finally, people's lives are more than just a series of economic decisions.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 22, 2017, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: Voros;947087
Where are you getting these facts?

Rochdale, England and Berlin. Do some research.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 22, 2017, 04:35:09 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;947089
I'm afraid it will just speed up.  For a long time now, Political parties  have been able to stay in power by fragmenting the various constituencies and pitting them against each other over Culture War issues, getting them to vote against their own economic interest.  Corporations now do the same thing with countries, playing the various political factions against each other, buying politician that will vote against the economic interest of their constituencies as well as the nation.

Thats nothing new. Theres a reason the American Revolution was funded by The Bank of England
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 22, 2017, 05:21:26 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;947099
Rochdale, England and Berlin. Do some research.


Rotheram rape scandal

wikipedia page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal

Here's the BBC version of the story if you don't trust wikipedia - http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

key quote:

Quote from: BBC
Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought as racist


Cologne rape scandal

wikipedia page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

BBC version - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35241808

key quotes:

Quote from: BBC
But there has been widespread criticism of the slow response by city authorities, amid accusations of an initial cover-up and controversy over the mayor's advice to young women following the attacks.


Quote from: BBC
Soon after reports emerged that the men involved were of Arab or North African appearance, anti-immigration campaigners seized on the incident as an example of Germany's failed asylum policy.

Some suggested Germany's media had been hesitant to report on the attacks for fear of stirring far-right sentiment, after the arrival of more than a million migrants and refugees in the past year.

Public broadcaster ZDF later apologised on social media because it failed to report on the mass assaults on its Monday evening news bulletin.

Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere stressed there should not be any general suspicion towards refugees.

"But if North Africans were the perpetrators, for which there is some indication, there should not be a taboo and people should not gloss over it."
Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker said "people from other cultures" needed to be given "a better explanation" about appropriate behaviour during street celebrations.


Quote from: BBC
Following the Cologne attacks, Mayor Reker was criticised for urging young women and girls to adopt a code of conduct that meant keeping an "arm's length" distance from strangers.
Justice Minister Heiko Maas wrote on Twitter: "It is not women who bear responsibility, but the perpetrators."
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Catulle on February 22, 2017, 08:19:36 PM
Quote from: Alzrius;946729
You've gone from having no evidence to openly contradicting yourself

This, for reference, is a lie.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 22, 2017, 08:55:46 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;947089
I'm afraid it will just speed up.  For a long time now, Political parties  have been able to stay in power by fragmenting the various constituencies and pitting them against each other over Culture War issues, getting them to vote against their own economic interest.  Corporations now do the same thing with countries, playing the various political factions against each other, buying politician that will vote against the economic interest of their constituencies as well as the nation.

The purpose of government is distribution of wealth and power.  Thus, it is, was, and always will be a means for the wealthy and powerful to stay wealthy and powerful.  In the case of revolution, you just have different wealthy and powerful.

All those nice words about "consent of the governed" and "rights" are just ad copy.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Alzrius on February 22, 2017, 09:09:40 PM
Quote from: Catulle;947124
This, for reference, is a lie.

Except that I demonstrated that it's not, in that you claim you don't want to feed someone to the "Internet hate machine" while pushing accusations of immoral actions against people and refusing to provide details or evidence thereof. That's to say nothing of claiming that you don't care about "winning Internet points" while offering rebuttals that are little more than "nuh uh." So it's self-evident that you are contradicting yourself.

In other words, for reference, your claim of what I said being a lie is itself a lie. Which makes it even harder to take your claims of "Desborough harassed my wife, no further details forthcoming" seriously.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 23, 2017, 02:28:45 AM
Hey Catulle!!

Welcome to theRPGsite!

RPGPundit's Forum is our sludgepit. The wank and spank can get vitriolic here, but (very little) bleeds over to the RPG discussions in our main forum.

Please start up a thread there about your favorite games!


Quote from: Alzrius;946828
What amazing powers will you demonstrate next, Professor X?


Tap dancing.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Catulle on February 23, 2017, 06:00:58 PM
Quote from: Alzrius;947134
Except that I demonstrated that it's not, in that you claim you don't want to feed someone to the "Internet hate machine" while pushing accusations of immoral actions against people and refusing to provide details or evidence thereof. That's to say nothing of claiming that you don't care about "winning Internet points" while offering rebuttals that are little more than "nuh uh." So it's self-evident that you are contradicting yourself.

In other words, for reference, your claim of what I said being a lie is itself a lie. Which makes it even harder to take your claims of "Desborough harassed my wife, no further details forthcoming" seriously.


You seem to keep putting things in quotes that aren't actual quotes. Why do you feel like you have to lie about what I've said?

Also, you haven't.

See again, false equivalence, burden of proof and anecdotal evidence (you know, what I provided and never pretended to be going beyond).

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Okay, so in simple terms...

I DON'T LIKE JAMES DESBOROUGH

THIS IS ENTIRELY DUE TO MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF HIM AS A BULLY

HE PLAYED AN AWESOME BRUJAH ANARCH AND RAN A REALLY GOOD CROSSOVER LARP GAME IN BASINGSTOKE

HE DID A SHITTY THING TO MY WIFE

THAT'S HER THING TO TALK ABOUT, NOT MINE

HE IS ALSO A PRETTY GOOD WRITER

Go forth and multiply, Alzrius; I don't give a shit, Grim doesn't give a shit, reward good games for being good if you want, this dude was once a cunt to my wife and I kind of care about that. What a weirdo, huh?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Catulle on February 23, 2017, 06:01:40 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;947185
Tap dancing.

And do I wish I could dance right now.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Snowman0147 on February 23, 2017, 06:15:29 PM
Quote from: Voros;947087
Where are you getting this paranoid bullshit?

Had you been living under a rock?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on February 24, 2017, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;947100
Thats nothing new. Theres a reason the American Revolution was funded by The Bank of England

Shit, somebody should have told Haim Solomon.  Maybe then he wouldn't have died in poverty from trying to finance the war.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Alzrius on February 24, 2017, 10:16:06 AM
Quote from: Catulle;947336
You seem to keep putting things in quotes that aren't actual quotes. Why do you feel like you have to lie about what I've said?

Your projection is showing, you fucking liar.

I quoted you talking about the feeding people to the "Internet hate machine" and "winning Internet points" because that's what you said (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35992-Sensitive-New-Age-Game-Designer-asks-How-does-your-game-fight-Fascism&p=946727&viewfull=1#post946727). As for "nuh uh," that wasn't a quote, it was in quotation marks because it was a(n accurate) characterization of the childishness of your position. Though you're managing to sink even lower with each new post.

Quote
Also, you haven't.

Except that I have before, and have again just now.

Quote
See again, false equivalence, burden of proof and anecdotal evidence (you know, what I provided and never pretended to be going beyond).

So you're out-and-out admitting that you've made false equivalences and failed to satisfy the burden of proof, only to turn around and lie about presenting even anecdotal evidence? Are you off your fucking medication? All you've said is "I don't like the guy because he did this bad thing, which I won't/can't prove nor even provide details about" (and what details were provided from where I found another quote of yours on another forum), and now you're getting pissed that someone is pointing out how flimsy your bullshit is?

If you don't have anything to back up your position, be a grownup and admit it.

Quote
What the fuck is wrong with you?

More projection. You honestly don't seem to understand the basic concepts of being called out on your nonsense.

Quote
Okay, so in simple terms...

I DON'T LIKE JAMES DESBOROUGH

THIS IS ENTIRELY DUE TO MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF HIM AS A BULLY

HE PLAYED AN AWESOME BRUJAH ANARCH AND RAN A REALLY GOOD CROSSOVER LARP GAME IN BASINGSTOKE

HE DID A SHITTY THING TO MY WIFE

THAT'S HER THING TO TALK ABOUT, NOT MINE

HE IS ALSO A PRETTY GOOD WRITER

Ah, and now we've sunk to a new low in Internet asshatery: typing in all caps - as though that makes up for the fact that you can't back up your indictment about this unspecified, unverified "bad thing" he supposedly did. You honestly don't seem to get why this matters, so I'm going to make it as simple as I possibly can, and hope that your mind will be able to grasp it:

When you accuse someone else of misconduct, expect people to ask for proof, or at least details. If you want to impugn someone's character in public, it's incumbent on you to do that, otherwise you just look like an asshole. "Put up or shut up," as you might understand it. Otherwise, you are the very "Internet hate machine" you claim to despite (oh shit, I just quoted you accurately; better call me a liar again!).

Quote
Go forth and multiply, Alzrius; I don't give a shit, Grim doesn't give a shit, reward good games for being good if you want, this dude was once a cunt to my wife and I kind of care about that. What a weirdo, huh?

If you didn't give a shit, you wouldn't be trying to hard to deflect and deny any instance of someone poking holes in your claim. I don't think that your accusation holds water, not just because you won't provide any evidence, go into any details, or have stated that you don't like Grim's affiliations and politics, but because the way you're acting here is that of a lying cunt who's getting butthurt over being called out as a lying cunt. If you don't like that, well, you have no one but yourself to blame.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Snowman0147 on February 24, 2017, 02:13:43 PM
Man this reminds me of the time that ZakS called James sexist.  It went like this.

Forum:  "What evidence do you have?"

ZakS:  "My friends told me."

Forum:  "Do they have proof?"

ZakS:  "No, but they are women talking about sexism so we men have no right to question it."

Forum:  "Bullshit!"

Now mind you this happen just after consultantgate where people of the big purple and other sites were spreading bullshit lies on ZakS and RPGPundit.  Some like Zeea believed that bullshit because her friends said so which she admitted as she apologized to ZakS.

So you can understand the hypocritism that was with ZakS calling out James as sexiest.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 24, 2017, 02:43:53 PM
Which is why I say that I don't feel particularly inclined to spend a lot of time defending Zak this time around.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Alzrius on February 24, 2017, 02:52:03 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;947493
Man this reminds me of the time that ZakS called James sexist.

Ironically enough, that's exactly what I was referencing (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35992-Sensitive-New-Age-Game-Designer-asks-How-does-your-game-fight-Fascism&p=946677&viewfull=1#post946677) when that dipshit started going on with his "but Grim harassed my wife!" bit.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Snowman0147 on February 24, 2017, 03:09:42 PM
Yeah and the greatest cruelty was that James supported ZakS when ZakS was being smeared.  So to have ZakS to accused James of being sexist for bullshit excuses really dug ZakS's grave when it comes to me.

Look I buy ZakS books as they are amazing, but if the witch hunt goes after him they can have him.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 24, 2017, 03:33:44 PM
I'm slightly surprised Zak hasn't posted in this thread yet.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Snowman0147 on February 24, 2017, 03:44:33 PM
ZakS doesn't like this site.  Oh he is not banned, but he did leave the site after saying that.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on February 24, 2017, 04:52:25 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;947523
ZakS doesn't like this site.  Oh he is not banned, but he did leave the site after saying that.

Not enough sycophants for him.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Snowman0147 on February 24, 2017, 05:07:39 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;947537
Not enough sycophants for him.

That and as ZakS was bitching how horrible this site is a number of us including RPGPundit eventually comfronted him on it.  He pretty much got the message his welcome was waning out and left.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on February 24, 2017, 07:29:25 PM
Huh... that explains it. A while back, when I was checking back in on the site it was starting to look like the Zak and Pundit show. Maybe his stuff is good, I dunno since its not my area, but his attitude was offputting so I just wandered off until again until just recently.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on February 24, 2017, 10:25:35 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;947523
ZakS doesn't like this site.  Oh he is not banned, but he did leave the site after saying that.

Yes, but a big chunk of the thread is about him and he seems like the kind of guy who would venture anywhere he isn't actually banned to comment on that topic.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Baulderstone on February 24, 2017, 11:14:00 PM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;947605
Yes, but a big chunk of the thread is about him and he seems like the kind of guy who would venture anywhere he isn't actually banned to comment on that topic.

I guess when you are at the current center of RPG Internet outrage, you can just sit back and wait for people to come to you.

I also think the discussion here doesn't give a reason to show up. On the one hand, Tristram is right that there aren't enough sycophants here. On the other, there really isn't enough outrage for him to get a good fight here. Yeah, a lot of people don't like him, but nobody is really calling to boycott his work either.

If he can't get either support or persecution, what is there here for him?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on February 24, 2017, 11:55:28 PM
Hopefully Zak S will pop by the main forum to talk about his gaming projects.

It's a shame about the Grim vs. Zak mess. Both are talented and entertaining.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Opaopajr on February 25, 2017, 01:01:37 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;947617
Hopefully Zak S will pop by the main forum to talk about his gaming projects.

It's a shame about the Grim vs. Zak mess. Both are talented and entertaining.

I agree. :)

(We agree on so much soon we'll have to start our own Love Parade! Yay! :cool:)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Willmark on February 25, 2017, 09:36:57 AM
Coming to this topic late and back OT: RPGs need to fight fascism? How about I like/play RPGS to avoid the SJWs BS social crusades? Or is the mentioning of a crusades triggering to them.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 25, 2017, 04:07:34 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;947493
Man this reminds me of the time that ZakS called James sexist.  It went like this.

Forum:  "What evidence do you have?"

ZakS:  "My friends told me."

Forum:  "Do they have proof?"

ZakS:  "No, but they are women talking about sexism so we men have no right to question it."

Forum:  "Bullshit!"

Now mind you this happen just after consultantgate where people of the big purple and other sites were spreading bullshit lies on ZakS and RPGPundit.  Some like Zeea believed that bullshit because her friends said so which she admitted as she apologized to ZakS.

So you can understand the hypocritism that was with ZakS calling out James as sexiest.


I recall that conversation or perhaps another similar one. ZakS's position struck me as unusual as it was only the women he knew who's opinions mattered not other women.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ulairi on February 27, 2017, 09:33:36 AM
Quote from: Nexus;947701
I recall that conversation or perhaps another similar one. ZakS's position struck me as unusual as it was only the women he knew who's opinions mattered not other women.

ZakS is still a Marxit and a big believer in identity politics. So it's not surprising at all.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Nexus on February 28, 2017, 09:15:26 AM
Quote from: Ulairi;947878
ZakS is still a Marxit and a big believer in identity politics. So it's not surprising at all.

Having their opinions ignored or passively aggressively "mansplained" as incorrect when they contradicted the agreed on opinions of the female hivemind was the breaking point for a few friends of mine when it came to TBP.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Ulairi on February 28, 2017, 09:47:28 AM
Quote from: Nexus;948045
Having their opinions ignored or passively aggressively "mansplained" as incorrect when they contradicted the agreed on opinions of the female hivemind was the breaking point for a few friends of mine when it came to TBP.

Mine was the breaking point to bring more women into the hobby when they want more women that agree and think exactly like they do. If we had more women like Michelle Malkin (who is a D&D nerd) playing they'd be throwing a fit. These are the types of folks that will call someone an Uncle Tom.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Luca on February 28, 2017, 11:47:41 AM
Regardless of what anyone thinks about Zak, RPG.net modus operandi of freely allowing a lynch mob to libel someone who can't defend himself because banned by their own mods is beyond pathetic.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Snowman0147 on February 28, 2017, 03:55:59 PM
Your right Luca, but who here respects that site?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Willmark on February 28, 2017, 05:36:24 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;948117
Your right Luca, but who here respects that site?

Well... no one of course. But reading tangency is about as fun as reading tumblr when you need a laugh.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on March 01, 2017, 01:47:17 PM
Zak finally blogged about the situation, somewhat indirectly:

Quote from: Zak S
Seven years ago, when I first started to click and google my way into the online RPG community, here’s what I (like most people) saw:

1. Hundreds of people who were trying—often quaintly, sometimes dazzlingly, always earnestly and by-and-large without the huge professional benefit that a successful gamble on student loans had given me in the way of an expensive art education—to make some creative things.

2. Hundreds of people on messageboards and blog comments trying--by any means necessary and with no holds-barred or fact-checking--to make doing that as painful as possible

3. The more daring and interesting a thing was, the more aggressively thing #2 happened

…and have no doubt: it worked. A great deal of middle-of-the-road stuff was being published while the best stuff languished on blogs or in obscure corners of still-obscurer forums.

When I started this blog, folks would write in, asking questions about which way to take their projects, always including “I want to_____ but I’m afraid people will say _____ “.

This isn't just about hurt feelings, either, in an online scene where the only way to make a profit is to get your project talked about: making a sustainable living requires attracting hate speech. To a far larger degree than in non-nerd media.

Here were people not recognized as artists in any sense, not influential to anyone, with mortgages or student loans or both, working tech jobs or at banks or biscuit factories, trying in the few hours between commute and sleep to do new things but sure of only one thing: they would get attacked for it. And whatever -ism the attack involved would be forever attached to their name on the internet as the price of trying to be creative.

Trolls are not a government. This wasn’t censorship or directly free speech issue—and people should not use those terms. What post-fact criticism in volume does isn’t censor, what it does is raise the cost of being creative.

The problem is not so simple as criticism or censorship being good or bad--the issue in small online creative communities is about when the cost of being creative is higher than the cost of lying (or, to be very charitable, talking without googling a single word of what you're on about first.)

_________

A lot of the attacks on people like James Edward Raggi at LOTFP, at Stacy Dellorfano at Contessa, and like me presume that the internet controversies we were involved in are somehow failures of professionalism or decorum—mistakes, brand-damaging eruptions of resentment, lashing-out, rants, screeds penned against better judgment.

In fact, they’re nothing of the sort. I am proud of every stand I ever took and I suspect so are they.

When a white person attacked an artist of color for daring to make pin-up art, fighting back made the RPG community better.


When designers attacked Contessa for only having games run by women and erased the involvement of trans women in Contessa, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When a mom claimed that the D&D With Porn stars girls appearing in a magazine was bad for women, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When a bunch of dudes without facts told Shanna Germain her space succubus was sexist, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When the same dudes told a trans woman a trans character in a game she co-wrote was transphobic, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When groups of designers started a years-long thread behind a paywall dedicated to harassing other designers, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When a company the girls and I quit working with a company because they hired a transphobic commentator and people attacked us for it, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When a designer lied about rape to frame another designer, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When a man accused a movie he’d never seen of vast moral crimes despite never having seen it, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When a man claimed a designer he didn't like was secretly courting Nazis, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When an asexual, married, cis-presenting mom with a kid falsely claimed she suffered more homophobia than the LGBT game designers criticizing her, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When a dad claimed that Kingdom Death was somehow hurting his daughter while ignoring the feminists who were calling him out, fighting back made the RPG community better.

When major game designers, publishers and gadflies casually support these wild claims, fighting back makes the RPG community better.

The controversies are not proof of having done something wrong, they are proof of having done something right.  Before people started taking a stand, basically nothing good was getting published. Now that people have, it’s an embarrassment of riches.

Everyone who took a moral stand in any of these incidents has lowered the cost of being creative by proving to creators that the honest elements of the game community have their back and by proving we want to raise the cost of lying.

But the cost of being creative is not yet zero: my co-author Sarah Horrocks has responded to recent attacks by cishet dudes by saying she’ll never work in games again. That avenue for exposure and side income has been denied this particular up-and-coming trans creator. Not a single one of the folks who attacked her work has been forced to make a similar announcement.

As long as the people who can do that pay less of a price than the people who stick their necks out by trying to change what we are allowed to see and read and play, there will alway be a need for ”drama”—no matter how unpleasant that word is.

Those of us privileged enough to be able to tank in these fights can and should. The maker of things is sometimes innocent, the liar never is.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Motorskills on March 01, 2017, 02:10:56 PM
Quote from: Luca;948071
Regardless of what anyone thinks about Zak, RPG.net modus operandi of freely allowing a lynch mob to libel someone who can't defend himself because banned by their own mods is beyond pathetic.


Now I haven't followed this story as closely as others, so I stand to be corrected, but even at first glance, it is clearly more complicated than that, no?


1) The accusations against Zak are very well documented in the appropriate RPGnet thread. It's presumably not libel if those are true (I am not a lawyer, nor, I suspect, are you).

2) Zak is free to defend himself...just not in that thread / forum. And yet Zak hasn't done so*.

3) Even if the above screed wasn't full of holes and misdirection....there is nothing in there that I can see that makes the case that the accusations against him are ill-founded.


*except, as I understand it, in two instances
1) to make a laughably implausible rejection of his impersonating an industry figure for an extended period of time
2) claiming that while true, one of his wrongdoings was just a joke
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Luca on March 01, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
No, it's not at all like that, at least from where I'm standing.

Point the first, there's not even a shred of proof that Zak harassed someone. You could say the accusations "prove" he's an hypocritical asshole, but one is a felony and the other isn't. This is libel, not to mention it's hypocritical itself if you're using the harassment charge to try and affect him negatively by getting companies to fire (or not hire) him.

Point the second, most of the "proof" is based on presenting tiny bits of evidence without context and reading them in the worst possible way for him. That's not how it works in real life. Well ok, it does work like that in real life too, but it wouldn't fly in a court where any such claim would be subject to cross examination. Something that RPG.net carefully avoids.

Point the third, if you're the biggest fish in the pond, even for a field as tiny as RPGs, you have responsibilities. If someone published an article writing "Trump has fucked a 5-year old boy while wearing a nazi costume" he better as hell have ultra-conclusive proof, because if he doesn't and goes in front of the judge saying "but your honor, I only wrote -Trump BEHAVED like a nazi pedophile-, I never wrote -Trump IS a nazi pedophile-", the best he could get is the judge to shave off one year from the sentence on account of terminal idiocy.

Point the fourth, if RPG.net had the slightest bit of integrity, in this and every other similar case, they'd do what any semi-decent journalist does: contact the "accused" and hear his version BEFORE firing all the guns. They wouldn't even need to remove the ban; they could simply ask for a written reply and publish it somewhere on the site. The fact they didn't bother means they have an agenda, and it has nothing to do with "establishing the truth". And they don't get a pass for me just because they're not journalists, either; it would cost them little to nothing to do so, thus if they don't it means they're not interested.

Tl, dr: whatever Zak might be, RPGnet is at least a billion times worse and more hypocritical.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on March 01, 2017, 05:52:36 PM
Quote from: Motorskills;948294

2) Zak is free to defend himself...just not in that thread / forum. And yet Zak hasn't done so*.

Huh? He has right here. (http://armsinthewronghands.tumblr.com) If you look at the actual conversations others are claiming as evidence of 'harrassment' they are at worst merely argumentative. And often the other person is being just as argumentative. Completely typical passive aggressive internet drama. All told the pack that obsesses on Zak are less than half a dozen former regulars from the SA forum,  a forum hardly less civil than 4chan.  

Seems to me that these people have very little experience with people actually disagreeing and debating things with them. They are common these days on the left and the right on the net and there's little to be gained in engaging with them. Zak should know better.

Note by the way that the claim that 'Zak' outed a trans game designer in fact was done by his partner Mandy Morbid. This blurring of her and her bf is pretty sexist but of course these trolls know that if they attacked a woman who is a former sex worker with a disability they would suffer blowback and the clearly false nature of their claim may be quickly exposed.

No one has been able to present anything by Zak close to the abuse that Anna Kreider has heaped on those who dare disagree with her, in particular her absurd treatement of Kiel Chenier, a guy who I've never seen say a bad word about anyone. Yet she is still treated with respect for some mysterious reason.

So far the only thing Zak seems guilty of is sockpuppeting.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Snowman0147 on March 01, 2017, 08:38:59 PM
I would not worry too much about ZakS.  White Wolf investigated him before they hire him and found no evidence of harassment on his part.  All rpg.net is doing is giving White Wolf more reason not to support Onyx Path.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on March 02, 2017, 12:50:32 AM
What is the relationship between Onyx Path and White Wolf these days?

Who owns what?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Brand55 on March 02, 2017, 12:17:36 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;948429
What is the relationship between Onyx Path and White Wolf these days?

Who owns what?
Technically, you could call them cousins via shotgun wedding. The new White Wolf was created by Paradox Interactive, which purchased the old White Wolf Publishing assets from the previous owner, CCP. It seems to be focused fully on doing a new edition of the World of Darkness at the moment. Onyx Path had previously bought a few other WW games like Trinity and Scion, and they were licensing stuff like Exalted and World of Darkness. That's why they had to change their branding to "Chronicles of Darkness." They still license Exalted from Paradox Interactive.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on March 03, 2017, 04:49:30 AM
Thank you Brand55! I'm still a bit confused so hopefully you know more!

What is the difference between World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness?

Is Paradox Interactive looking to do a videogame of WoD or a new tabletop dead tree edition?

Did Onyx Path do something with Trinity?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Brand55 on March 03, 2017, 11:37:17 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;948591
Thank you Brand55! I'm still a bit confused so hopefully you know more!

What is the difference between World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness?

The upcoming World of Darkness from the new White Wolf is supposed to be a new edition of classic World of Darkness (Vampire: the Masquerade, Werewolf: the Apocalypse).

Chronicles of Darkness is the former "new World of Darkness" (Vampire: the Requiem, Werewolf: the Forsaken). It's the revised version of those games that introduced a weird new XP system and tons of Conditions for players to track. I'm not a fan.
Quote from: Spinachcat;948591
Is Paradox Interactive looking to do a videogame of WoD or a new tabletop dead tree edition?

Both, from what I've heard. White Wolf is making a new tabletop RPG and I believe Paradox Development Studio, PI's own game developer, will be working on at least one video game using the WoD property.
Quote from: Spinachcat;948591
Did Onyx Path do something with Trinity?

Not yet, but they keep promising that it's coming soon. Last I heard it was meant to be core book using a revised system followed by a bunch of setting books, including new versions of the original trilogy. I expect they're wanting to get Scion up and running first.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Shipyard Locked on March 03, 2017, 05:35:04 PM
Quote from: Brand55;948628
The upcoming World of Darkness from the new White Wolf is supposed to be a new edition of classic World of Darkness (Vampire: the Masquerade, Werewolf: the Apocalypse).

Chronicles of Darkness is the former "new World of Darkness" (Vampire: the Requiem, Werewolf: the Forsaken). It's the revised version of those games...

Sooo the new old company is making a new version of the old game, while the old new company is making a new version of the old new game... :p

Maybe it's my severe sleep deprivation, but I find this IP clusterfuck really funny, especially in an industry as tiny and niche as tabletop.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: GeekEclectic on March 05, 2017, 02:58:48 AM
It's pretty simple once it's all laid out.

White Wolf
Owns: World of Darkness, Chronicles of Darkness, Exalted
Plans: Due to the popularity of the 20th anniversary editions, they've decided to reboot the old World of Darkness in the near future. This is why the new edition of New World of Darkness had its name changed to Chronicles of Darkness.

Onyx Path
Owns: Scion, Trinity Universe
Licenses: Exalted, World of Darkness 20th Anniversary, Chronicles of Darkness(previously New World of Darkness)
Plans: Pretty much to keep doing what they've been doing. Of their 2 owned properties, I believe Scion is the one closest to being completed. I've heard rumors that the new edition of WoD being published in-house by WW could result in the discontinuation of the WoD20 license, but thus far it's just rumors.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: HappyDaze on March 05, 2017, 03:20:14 AM
Does WW plan to actually put books on store shelves or will they be doing things the same way OP does?
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: GeekEclectic on March 05, 2017, 06:46:16 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;949135
Does WW plan to actually put books on store shelves or will they be doing things the same way OP does?
/shrugs
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Brand55 on March 05, 2017, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;949135
Does WW plan to actually put books on store shelves or will they be doing things the same way OP does?
No clue. I haven't seen any information on that front, but if I had to guess I'd wager that they'll do normal print runs again.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Snowman0147 on March 05, 2017, 02:20:37 PM
If they do book shelves that would be big news.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on March 06, 2017, 01:37:59 AM
Onyx Path doesn't have CoD games in game stores?

I thought I saw some WoD stuff in Barnes & Nobles in the last few years.

It would be awesome of WW (or somebody else) relaunched Jyhad. That was a great CCG. I'd jump on that Kickstarter in a second.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: crkrueger on March 06, 2017, 02:15:37 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;949398
Onyx Path doesn't have CoD games in game stores?

I thought I saw some WoD stuff in Barnes & Nobles in the last few years.

It would be awesome of WW (or somebody else) relaunched Jyhad. That was a great CCG. I'd jump on that Kickstarter in a second.

Jyhad was by far my favorite CCG.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Snowman0147 on March 06, 2017, 02:17:39 AM
I think they stop going physical since 2008 to 2010.  Just guessing, but they stop going physical for years.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on March 06, 2017, 03:51:55 AM
So they need to get physical?

..thus only Olivia Newton-John can save the World of Darkness!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWz9VN40nCA
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Snowman0147 on March 06, 2017, 04:25:53 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;949447
So they need to get physical?

..thus only Olivia Newton-John can save the World of Darkness!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWz9VN40nCA

I always prefer my tool shed (https://youtu.be/sKhXgcfGuE0).
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Opaopajr on March 06, 2017, 06:02:46 AM
Quote from: Snowman0147;949468
I always prefer my tool shed (https://youtu.be/sKhXgcfGuE0).

OMG, Benny Benassi from back in the day! Oh I have good memories of dancing to that in front of San Francisco city hall with a throng of others. So much going on, so much of it delightfully hazy. Everyone getting their freak on in public in front of that beautiful capitol dome... oh my! Did you know that front is supposed to call to mind Les Invalides from Paris? What a lovely bit of culture to background one's bump n grind.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on March 06, 2017, 05:31:12 PM
TLDR, White Wolf and Onyx Path are pretentious and run by Goths and SJW's respectively and even if White Wolf products return to book store shelves, the wrist-cutters who write them won't see a penny from me. Fuck them.

The only way I'd support White Wolf now is if they brought back Big Eyes Small Mouth. Otherwise Martin Ericsson can go fuck himself.

The Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative suck while Creedence Clearwater Revival rules. Just sayin'
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on March 07, 2017, 02:13:49 AM
Wait you don't like Goths and WW? I don't think you've made that clear enough...
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on March 07, 2017, 05:54:18 AM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;949596
The Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative suck while Creedence Clearwater Revival rules. Just sayin'

While CCR does indeed rule, don't go pissing on Peter Steele if you want to live in Jersey.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on March 07, 2017, 06:33:18 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;949737
While CCR does indeed rule, don't go pissing on Peter Steele if you want to live in Jersey.

But in New Jersey, the women are beautiful (especially compared to the inbred green-eyed hillbilly apes we have here in Virginia), the vodka flows freely, and you never run into Goths. So I don't know why dissing Peter Steele would be such a problem there.

Also, White Wolf used to be cool in the 90's, but then Justin Achilli ruined it for everyone that wasn't a Goth.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on March 07, 2017, 06:58:31 AM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;949596
TLDR, White Wolf and Onyx Path are pretentious and run by Goths and SJW's respectively and even if White Wolf products return to book store shelves, the wrist-cutters who write them won't see a penny from me. Fuck them.

The only way I'd support White Wolf now is if they brought back Big Eyes Small Mouth. Otherwise Martin Ericsson can go fuck himself.

The Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative suck while Creedence Clearwater Revival rules. Just sayin'

Take a chill pill Doc Sammy.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on March 07, 2017, 06:59:58 AM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;949757
Take a chill pill Doc Sammy.

Duly noted, I will calm down. I think I need a break for a little while and go have some breakfast, help get my mind off these frustrations.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Brand55 on March 07, 2017, 11:06:42 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;949747
(especially compared to the inbred green-eyed hillbilly apes we have here in Virginia)
You need to try another part of the state. The last time I went to visit my brother in Virginia Beach, I didn't see a single ape-like female anywhere. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Voros on March 07, 2017, 11:15:26 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;949747
...and you never run into Goths...

I haven't 'run into Goths' since 1997. Their peak was in the 80s. Your hatred for a barely existent pop subculture is frankly mystifying. Like someone hating obsessively on zoot suiters.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on March 07, 2017, 11:24:32 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;949747
So I don't know why dissing Peter Steele would be such a problem there.

Because NJ & NY can be clannish about their local rock stars.

Especially 'cuz Peter Steele was a beloved blue collar local boy who made good.

In LA, millionaire rock stars are a dime a dozen so there isn't the same hometown worship. When people say they bump into celebrities on Sunset Strip, they actually mean bumping into them.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on March 07, 2017, 11:31:58 PM
Quote from: Voros;949916
Like someone hating obsessively on zoot suiters.

I will cut you.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: fearsomepirate on March 09, 2017, 06:38:33 PM
If it's not against forum ettiquette to respond to the OP at this point...

This is like the Bizarro World version of the evangelical subculture of my youth, where Bad Things should not even be portrayed because they are bad. So you get awful music, awful movies, and awful books because actually portraying a believable world or authentic characters is impossible when you're not allowed to show the parts that conflict with your ideals. And if someone does skirt that edge of allowing the Bad Thing to be portrayed, it's always and only for the express purpose of serving as a foil for a morality play. Likewise, the protagonists' fundamental saintliness can never be besmirched. The novels emitted from that subculture are and were crap because when you strip violence, greed, lust, and hatred from your fictional world, there aren't many stories you can tell. Can't even watch Ghostbusters because it portrays evil spirits in ways that contradict the Bible.

And it's really not that big a leap to say your historical-ish (and I use that very loosely) fantasy must be scrubbed clean of everything that offends SJW sensibilities to saying that history itself must be similarly cleaned up. So you end up with these terrible movies set in the Middle Ages where there has to be at least one Strong Independent Womyn, a Person of Diversity, and a Skeptical Rationalist thrown in to ensure that the good guys are properly good instead of the yucky people from back then. And definitely none of the heroes should have or be comfortable around serfs. God forbid that we have a story set 13th century France that doesn't have a subplot about overcoming racism. Because if we don't, we're promoting Hitler.

You know, how like Ghostbusters taught me that I can defeat Satan with a proton pack instead of prayer.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spinachcat on March 10, 2017, 04:28:20 AM
Very true.

It's not a surprise the SJWs would emulate the Church Ladies. The holiness and the virtue signalling are just a sham. Their schtick is always really about control over others...with a double dose of "do what I say, not what I do"


Quote from: fearsomepirate;950385
If it's not against forum ettiquette to respond to the OP at this point...


How dare you! Pistols at dawn!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 10, 2017, 04:42:18 AM
Quote from: fearsomepirate;950385
forum ettiquette .

(https://i.imgflip.com/11io86.jpg)
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Spike on March 10, 2017, 01:03:14 PM
Where did you get that picture of me????!!!!  DOXXXING!!!!!!
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: Catulle on March 10, 2017, 05:31:44 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;948393
I would not worry too much about ZakS.  White Wolf investigated him before they hire him and found no evidence of harassment on his part.  All rpg.net is doing is giving White Wolf more reason not to support Onyx Path.


The rpg.net hate party is certainly a thing. Where it's okay to launch personal attacks against approved targets  despite their rules since the truth's a defence unless it's deployed against the likes of Onyx Path "it's not hold-them-down-and-stick-it-in-rape" freelancers.
Title: Sensitive New Age Game Designer asks: How does your game fight Fascism?
Post by: RPGPundit on March 10, 2017, 11:34:29 PM
I think we can close this one now too.