Scientific and Academic Censorship and Actualized Bias

[GeekyBugle]

Indeed, I would say that the Minoans are a strong candidate for being Atlantis. I've seen a few historians and scholars make that very argument. The Minoans, at the height of their civilization, were extremely wealthy, sophisticated, and advanced. They were likely, for some time, the most advanced civilization anywhere in the Mediterranean. I recall a gigantic mountain-top volcano went off, and actually blew up an entire island. Poison gas clouds, hot ash and lava falling everywhere, then the steam, crazy winds, I think it also caused earthquakes it was so huge. Shortly, massive tidal waves were set off, and also brought disaster to far away Egypt. The sky darkened, all of that. No doubt, many people living there throughout Crete and the many nearby islands, must have believed that the world was coming to an end. Scholars have also noted, and projected, that the Minoan civilization vanished within three years of this disastrous event. Trade had plummeted, and people fled in mass droves, seeking to escape and find safety.

The eruption of Thera was certainly a disastrous effect on the region, but my reading is that Minoan civilization slowly declined over centuries, not suddenly disappeared. The date of the eruption can be scientifically measured, though there is uncertainty. A recent paper eliminated one of the possibilities, narrowing the field.

The exact Thera eruption date remains unconfirmed, but the team has narrowed it down to just a handful of possibilities: 1611 B.C., 1562-1555 B.C. and 1538 B.C.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/05/220502142621.htm

From my reading, this is early in the late Minoan period, which extends to 1100BC.

New Palace period   1650-1450 BCE
(first) Middle Minoan IIIB   1650-1600 BCE
(second) Late Minoan IA   1600-1500 BCE
(third) Late Minoan IB   1500-1450 BCE
Creto-Mycenaean period   1450-1100 BCE
Third Palace period, Late Minoan II, IIIA1   1450-1350 BCE
Post Palace period. Late Minoan IIIA2, IIIB, IIIC   1350-1100 BCE
Sub-Minoan period   1100-1000 BCE

http://www.minoancrete.com/

This is archeological record of continued civilization on Crete for centuries after the eruption. From my reading, it is possible that the eruption left them weak and vulnerable, and they were conquered by the Mycenaeans 50 to 100 years after. But even after conquest, there were still people living in the same buildings and using the same palaces for centuries.

Could the eruption of Thera have influenced the story of Atlantis? Possibly. But it seems like a real-life inspiration for a fictional story, not that Minoa really was Atlantis.

You mean like the origin of the Mesopotamian myth of the flood?

I don't think anyone here is saying that it was The Atlantis, but I might be wrong.

[yosemitemike]

You're fun to talk to.  Even when we're on the opposite sides of an issue, you carefully read what's said and thoughtfully consider it before responding.

There's a cold beer in N. Florida with your name on it if you ever come my way.

Cool.  Thanks.

You mean like the origin of the Mesopotamian myth of the flood?

I don't think anyone here is saying that it was The Atlantis, but I might be wrong.

The theory is that the eruption of Thera, the fall of the Minoan civilization and subsequent exodus formed the basis of the Atlantis story.  If this is the case, Plato clearly did quite a lot of poetic embellishment for his story.  The size is one obvious thing that is drastically different. 

[GeekyBugle]

You're fun to talk to.  Even when we're on the opposite sides of an issue, you carefully read what's said and thoughtfully consider it before responding.

There's a cold beer in N. Florida with your name on it if you ever come my way.

Cool.  Thanks.

You mean like the origin of the Mesopotamian myth of the flood?

I don't think anyone here is saying that it was The Atlantis, but I might be wrong.

The theory is that the eruption of Thera, the fall of the Minoan civilization and subsequent exodus formed the basis of the Atlantis story.  If this is the case, Plato clearly did quite a lot of poetic embellishment for his story.  The size is one obvious thing that is drastically different.

Or whoever told Plato the story.

[BadApple]

Indeed, I would say that the Minoans are a strong candidate for being Atlantis. I've seen a few historians and scholars make that very argument. The Minoans, at the height of their civilization, were extremely wealthy, sophisticated, and advanced. They were likely, for some time, the most advanced civilization anywhere in the Mediterranean. I recall a gigantic mountain-top volcano went off, and actually blew up an entire island. Poison gas clouds, hot ash and lava falling everywhere, then the steam, crazy winds, I think it also caused earthquakes it was so huge. Shortly, massive tidal waves were set off, and also brought disaster to far away Egypt. The sky darkened, all of that. No doubt, many people living there throughout Crete and the many nearby islands, must have believed that the world was coming to an end. Scholars have also noted, and projected, that the Minoan civilization vanished within three years of this disastrous event. Trade had plummeted, and people fled in mass droves, seeking to escape and find safety.

The eruption of Thera was certainly a disastrous effect on the region, but my reading is that Minoan civilization slowly declined over centuries, not suddenly disappeared. The date of the eruption can be scientifically measured, though there is uncertainty. A recent paper eliminated one of the possibilities, narrowing the field.

The exact Thera eruption date remains unconfirmed, but the team has narrowed it down to just a handful of possibilities: 1611 B.C., 1562-1555 B.C. and 1538 B.C.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/05/220502142621.htm

From my reading, this is early in the late Minoan period, which extends to 1100BC.

New Palace period   1650-1450 BCE
(first) Middle Minoan IIIB   1650-1600 BCE
(second) Late Minoan IA   1600-1500 BCE
(third) Late Minoan IB   1500-1450 BCE
Creto-Mycenaean period   1450-1100 BCE
Third Palace period, Late Minoan II, IIIA1   1450-1350 BCE
Post Palace period. Late Minoan IIIA2, IIIB, IIIC   1350-1100 BCE
Sub-Minoan period   1100-1000 BCE

http://www.minoancrete.com/

This is archeological record of continued civilization on Crete for centuries after the eruption. From my reading, it is possible that the eruption left them weak and vulnerable, and they were conquered by the Mycenaeans 50 to 100 years after. But even after conquest, there were still people living in the same buildings and using the same palaces for centuries.

Could the eruption of Thera have influenced the story of Atlantis? Possibly. But it seems like a real-life inspiration for a fictional story, not that Minoa really was Atlantis.

First, it's a story about a lost city, not a lost culture.  By anyone's metric, it sank into the sea and a few days later there was a huge, world changing blast.  No one, not even Plato, suggests that everyone associated with Atlantis disappeared. 

If Thera was the capitol and that's where the leaders, great thinkers, and inventors congregated, what would that have done?  Ended all of Minoa?  Not likely, but it would have cut the heart out of it and much of what allow it to thrive was over.

We know from other stories that a lot of myths like this are times where historical events are remembered differently and we end up with a set of beliefs surrounding an incident that are very embellished.  The Trojan war is one such story.  That was so fantastic that it was thought the city itself was fiction for a long time.

Finally, how would an old man who saw New York City when he was five describe it to the decedents of a post apocalyptic event survivors that have never seen a human settlement larger than 100 people?

[Trond]

I remember seeing a discussion of the island of Thera/Santorini, where they argued that Thera was probably an independent state, and probably speaking the same language as on Crete. There might actually have been several independent states on Crete as well. So the bronze age situation was very similar to the Greek city states later.

[BadApple]

I remember seeing a discussion of the island of Thera/Santorini, where they argued that Thera was probably an independent state, and probably speaking the same language as on Crete. There might actually have been several independent states on Crete as well. So the bronze age situation was very similar to the Greek city states later.

A country and a culture are two different things.  The level of independence exercised by each city doesn't mean it isn't part of a large shared experience.

[jhkim]

The eruption of Thera was certainly a disastrous effect on the region, but my reading is that Minoan civilization slowly declined over centuries, not suddenly disappeared.
...
Could the eruption of Thera have influenced the story of Atlantis? Possibly. But it seems like a real-life inspiration for a fictional story, not that Minoa really was Atlantis.

First, it's a story about a lost city, not a lost culture.  By anyone's metric, it sank into the sea and a few days later there was a huge, world changing blast.  No one, not even Plato, suggests that everyone associated with Atlantis disappeared.

If Thera was the capitol and that's where the leaders, great thinkers, and inventors congregated, what would that have done?  Ended all of Minoa?  Not likely, but it would have cut the heart out of it and much of what allow it to thrive was over.

Thera was not the capital or center. It was a later colony of Minoan civilization. And SHARK specifically said that "Minoan civilization vanished within three years of this disastrous event" - which is the point I disagreed with.

I suspect that wanting to believe in Atlantis leads to stretching what history actually shows.

[Grognard GM]

As fascinating as this History Channel 12 part series about Atlantis has been, maybe we could ease back onto topic?

[SHARK]

The eruption of Thera was certainly a disastrous effect on the region, but my reading is that Minoan civilization slowly declined over centuries, not suddenly disappeared.
...
Could the eruption of Thera have influenced the story of Atlantis? Possibly. But it seems like a real-life inspiration for a fictional story, not that Minoa really was Atlantis.

First, it's a story about a lost city, not a lost culture.  By anyone's metric, it sank into the sea and a few days later there was a huge, world changing blast.  No one, not even Plato, suggests that everyone associated with Atlantis disappeared.

If Thera was the capitol and that's where the leaders, great thinkers, and inventors congregated, what would that have done?  Ended all of Minoa?  Not likely, but it would have cut the heart out of it and much of what allow it to thrive was over.

Thera was not the capital or center. It was a later colony of Minoan civilization. And SHARK specifically said that "Minoan civilization vanished within three years of this disastrous event" - which is the point I disagreed with.

I suspect that wanting to believe in Atlantis leads to stretching what history actually shows.

Greetings!

Ok, Jhkim. The Minoans didn't vanish within three years after the disaster. None the less, historically speaking, they did vanish quickly, and suddenly. I didn't just pull that idea out of my ass, Jhkim. Other Historians essentially agree with me on that, and have written books and produced programs saying such.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK