"Realism" in RPGs

[RPGPundit]

I have news for you Virginia: there is NO such thing as "realism" in an RPG. There's blatant and grotesque unrealism, at times, but there ain't no system out there that is really "realistic".
 
For much of RPGs history it has been misconstrued that realism means making very complicated and unwieldly rules.  But this doesn't create realism, it just creates crappy systems.
In fact, not only is "realism" absent in any RPG, but its not even possible to define what realism SHOULD be.  I've had self-defined "weapons experts" (usually grotesquely obese dudes who've watched a lot of Rambo films and may have gone to a gun show once) tell me that X weapons should be effective at no more than 20 yards, others say the same weapon could be effective at 200 yards. I've had one dude tell me that "realistically" a dagger should do just as much damage as any bullet, since he "knows how to stab a guy in a way that does WAY more damage than a gunshot".
 
I still hate to think about what THAT guy masturbates to at night.
 
Some people have told me that a well placed blow from a trained hand-to-hand fighter could drop a man instantly, other people tell me that "realistically" its almost impossible to actually knock someone out in one or even two or three punches.
 
So basically, all the so-called experts are full of shit.
 
What they define as "real" is just whatever suits their own deluded fantasies of how things work, and almost always an argument about realism from them is really an excuse to show off their "expertise" in "real" combat, firearms, technical training or physics. In other words, its a massive dick-waving contest that accomplishes nothing.
 
Hell, if you were to be really and truely "realistic", any time your PC was shot or stabbed you should fall to the ground and  bleed. That's basically it. You shouldn't be able to keep fighting, score the critical and take down the bad guy. Forget that shit. You get hit, you are down. Or pissing yourself and running away, at the very best. And don't give me that Rambo bullshit about how "people" have been trained to fight when injured blah blah blah.  The REAL cop, gangster, street fighter or soldier, when shot or stabbed, does NOT in fact go on to whoop ass; he goes on to drown in a pool of his own blood and urine.
 
THAT is realism.
 
And what that means is that in an RPG, "realism" isn't really a goal. You don't really want realism.  No one does. You may want grittiness. You might want a complicated game that suits your own preference for complex rather than simple systems; you might want games that follow a genre or thematic you enjoy. But not realism.
 
All of you, Swine and otherwise, listen up because I'M ONLY GOING TO SAY THIS ONCE, FUCKERS: None of your pet RPGs are "realistic". D20 isn't realistic, GURPS isn't realistic, WoD is only realistic in the sense that bad adolescent poetry is "realistic", Warhammer isn't realistic, Call of Cthulhu isn't realistic (and while I'm at it, THERE IS NO FUCKING "REAL" NECRONOMICON.. the paperback you bought on Amazon will not let you speak with Nyarlathotep and Lovecraft was a smart but troubled writer, not the fucking "grand high wizard" of the secret society of assmasters or whatever, and that aging overweight goth guy you met in the Vampire LARP who tells you he knows the "real" Elder Sign just wants to get in your pants), Star Wars is not realistic (and saying your religion is "jedi" is fucking retarded; try studying some of the REAL religious teachings of which the Jedi are a cheap-ripoff), and whatever other "favorite" game you might have is not realistic.

RPGPundit July 5th 2005

[GRIM]

Star Wars is not realistic (and saying your religion is "jedi" is fucking retarded; try studying some of the REAL religious teachings of which the Jedi are a cheap-ripoff), and whatever other "favorite" game you might have is not realistic.

To be fair all faiths are equally retarded be they Jedi, Catholic or Flying Spaghetti Monster.  At least with Jedi and FSM people aren't taking them seriously (or if they are there's no argument about whether they're bonkers).

[fonkaygarry]

To be fair all faiths are equally retarded be they Jedi, Catholic or Flying Spaghetti Monster.  At least with Jedi and FSM people aren't taking them seriously (or if they are there's no argument about whether they're bonkers).

May the grace and peace of our lord Jesus Christ be with you always, GRIM.

:emot-3:

[beejazz]

Fuck Jesus... Ahura Mazda... That's a fucking GOD.
Hooray fire!

As for realistic violence... who the fuck claims realistic violence? Who the fuck actually studies "What does it take to kill a man?" In a remotely scientific environment.

Even people who *actually* kill people usually just find something that works and repeat it.

Large scale? Spray bullets.

They don't see you coming? Bind-n-gag... followed by a bleeding wound or vital spot.

Remotely fair hand-to-hand? Avoid at all costs.

I mean... the business of hurting people is hardly subject to realism debates. People who should be dead live. I mean... how the fuck does *anyone* survive a war, let alone the injured. Likewise, people who should have survived die... usually because some dumbass comes to "help" and says "huh-- maybe if we elevate your feet, it'll stop the bleeding."

Wait... side tangent. "Realism" in ficition exists mostly for the suspension of disbelief. As such, it needn't be real beyond what you already know and are familiar with... even that's a stretch.

[T-Willard]

The REAL cop, gangster, street fighter or soldier, when shot or stabbed, does NOT in fact go on to whoop ass; he goes on to drown in a pool of his own blood and urine.

Really? That's what we did?

I thought we bore done, got the job done, and spent 2 months in the hospital.

As for realistic violence... who the fuck claims realistic violence? Who the fuck actually studies "What does it take to kill a man?" In a remotely scientific environment.

Various militaries. Research programs are king nowdays.

Remotely fair hand-to-hand? Avoid at all costs.

Tattoo this on your fucking head. The only fair fight is one involving two idiots.

how the fuck does *anyone* survive a war,

Luck, skill, and speed.

let alone the injured.

Because modern technology rocks!

[Caesar Slaad]

As for realistic violence... who the fuck claims realistic violence? Who the fuck actually studies "What does it take to kill a man?" In a remotely scientific environment.

FWIW, the (previously mentioned over complicated) damage system in my Starfarer RPG was based in small part on Vietnam war statistics*.

Of course there was a lot of extrapolation, but there you go.

* - Roughly the statistics go:
Shot in head - dead
Shot in extremity - live
Shot in torso - even odds

[David R]

Strange as it sounds, most times I aim for verisimilitude, it seems to work for me in most games.

Regards,
David R

[flyingmice]

Strange as it sounds, most times I aim for verisimilitude, it seems to work for me in most games.

Regards,
David R

Hi David! Long time no see!

-mice

[David R]

Hi David! Long time no see!

-mice

Gaming has been cutting into my posting time, but there are some interesting threads (and posters) here, so I'll be lurking around these parts

Regards,
David R

[flyingmice]

Gaming has been cutting into my posting time, but there are some interesting threads (and posters) here, so I'll be lurking around these parts

Regards,
David R

Then all is good! Worry if that ever reverses!

-mice

[Bagpuss]

The REAL cop, gangster, street fighter or soldier, when shot or stabbed, does NOT in fact go on to whoop ass; he goes on to drown in a pool of his own blood and urine.
 
THAT is realism.

Well actually it's not, it's got very little to do with training, more to do with where the bullet hits you and how you individually react. There are plenty of cases of people continuing to act pretty normally with several bullets in them, only to collaspe when the adrenaline runs out. The only way you can be sure someone is going down is if you hit them in something vital like the heart, brain (although there are cases of people missing a fair chuck of that and seeming uneffected), lungs, etc.

But as to your point on realism, or trying to have a realistic system for combat, I agree, it's a pointless and meaningless exercise.

[Reimdall]

"Realism" is a bit of a paper tiger.  

I do prefer rules systems (especially tactical systems) that are consistent.  They need to make sense in application, model out through various scenarios, and balance well.  If players who have a played a couple of times will know what to expect in a concrete manner, that's all I need.  As long as it has that, whether you're walking through the air to visit the Temple of the Great Sloth That Pooped Out the World or opening up on the Beast of the Void with a shoulder-mounted proton cannon, it's got my vote.  

:verkill:

[mythusmage]

You can drop a man with one blow.

You need two or three blows to drop a man.

Different situations. A trained boxer can drop a man with one blow, if he hits the right spot. An untrained person is going to need to put in more effort.

Overall I agree with the sentiment. At our stage of development we cannot accurately model reality. We can devise something that feels about right, but otherwise even the best simulations can only crudely emulate what actually happens.

The most accurate combat simulator I've ever run across is also the crudest. In Tunnels and Trolls you get a lot of dice to roll in combat. Both parties roll, and the party that rolled lower subtracts the difference between his roll and the winner's roll from his points. So many points and you lose a die. With a big enough gap between the rolls the fight can be basically over over the first round.