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Author Topic: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)  (Read 306533 times)

Ratman_tf

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2670 on: January 26, 2023, 06:44:03 PM »
You cannot escape moral problems no matter how you dress it up.

The party gets attacked by feral dogs. As we all know, dogs are normally intelligent and loving. Does the party slay the dogs or capture them and reform them? I've never seen a party do anything other than kill or flee the dogs. One PC found the lair once and took a puppy to raise as a war dog. This runs complete counter to modern morality, but it's accepted in game.

Rats! Rats are highly intelligent and social animals, but they are the clichéd bread and butter source of XP for level 1 PCs. Go kill the rats in my cellar! It's implied that you kill any baby rats, too. Again, a moral dilemma if slaying intelligent and social creatures minding their own business is evil.

How are orcs different? They look vaguely human? They have language? Maybe they're easier to empathize with because of that. I don't think that makes the moral question any different from killing a dog.

If you're playing a game with combat and killing, I think you just have to accept that the characters are going to do some sketchy shit that would be totally unacceptable today. Dressing stuff up to make the killing more palatable is just fooling yourself.

I think that's a saner approach. Violence may be justified in certain circumstances, and killing may be a result of that violence, but going into a supernatural hell-hole for mayhem and profit is just crazy shit only justified because it's a game, and the setting is full of crazy shit.

The reason (IMO) it's an interesting discussion is because these are role playing game, and coming up with out-of-the-box solutions and ideas is the bread and butter of the games. Reforming an orc or a grand quest to make peace with orcs may make an interesting adventure.
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wmarshal

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2671 on: January 26, 2023, 06:55:39 PM »
PS- Bonus points for where the lore states they have 99% effective birth control, but also trumpets they have abortions for all.

    I'm reading the thread now, and I just hit the point where the reader drops that "children are not considered fully fledged humans until after they finish breastfeeding."

     :o

    Can you say "casual infanticide," ladies and gentlemen?

Is that what's implied? We don't consider children to be responsible adults until the age of 18(ish). "Fully fledged humans" does sound a bit "Post birth abortion is ok", but I'd like to give someone the benefit of the doubt on that until clarified.
I don’t see how C&C is doing anything other than giving a nod and a wink to infanticide. It doesn’t seem like C&C is making a case that weaned toddlers are adults.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 10:05:46 PM by wmarshal »

Bruwulf

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2672 on: January 26, 2023, 07:04:31 PM »
Is that what's implied? We don't consider children to be responsible adults until the age of 18(ish). "Fully fledged humans" does sound a bit "Post birth abortion is ok", but I'd like to give someone the benefit of the doubt on that until clarified.

I dunno, given the context... (Forgive the awful formatting, I'm not willing to spend much time fixing this shit...)

While all life is considered sacred
for the citizens of Cahokia, infants
are not considered fully fledged
humans until after the typical age
they would stop breastfeeding.
Recent changes in technology
have radically altered infant mor
-tality rates though and many peo-
ple have had to face tough moral
choices that they wouldn't have
just a few generations ago. For ex-
ample, if an infant is likely to die
shortly after birth, is it acceptable
to experimentally give them the
Adanadi-based drugs to attempt
to keep them alive or cure them?
If an infant is born deaf, is it moral
to give them cybernetic implants
at birth? None of these kinds of
questions have clear answers yet.


... I'm not inclined to be generous.

Although the next paragraph is amusing, if only in that I wonder how many people realize how hypocritical it is...


With technology spreading
quickly and without centralized
legal control, often, if a parent
doesn’t like the answer a healer
gives them, they can simply take a
child to a different city-state or to
a neighboring nation to get treat-
ment that suits their desires.
There is an ongoing debate about
the rights and motives of parents
in relation to invasive permanent
medical procedures before their
children can meaningfully consent
to them..

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2673 on: January 26, 2023, 08:49:49 PM »
Ah yes, the old techno-ableism chestnut. These people believe bionic implants that compensate for disabilities are genocide of the disabled culture and wasteful extravagances that would be better spent on accessible architecture.

As someone who has a life-threatening disability that I must carefully manage for the rest of my life with modern medicine or suffer a slow painful death, I think these people can fuck off. I would love to have an implant to increase my quality of life. I would love a complete body makeover to make myself a supermodel, a genius, and various other superpowers like being able to run as fast as a car or scale sheer surfaces or whatever. If it becomes feasible and affordable, then why the fuck shouldn’t I?

“There’s no disabled people in the future! Reee!” Dude, baseline humans will be considered disabled in that future. It’s going to be dystopian for everyone who can’t afford bionics, not just you.

Grognard GM

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2674 on: January 26, 2023, 10:11:09 PM »
If an infant is born deaf, is it moral
to give them cybernetic implants
at birth? None of these kinds of
questions have clear answers yet.[/i]

The "we shouldn't cure kids of disabilities, because that's the genocide of a culture" argument that crept its way in to the fringes of the deaf and blind communities is rancid. If you would deny your child one of its 5 senses so they have more in common with you, you're an awful person.


Dude, baseline humans will be considered disabled in that future. It’s going to be dystopian for everyone who can’t afford bionics, not just you.

I 100% agree with this, except I think genetic engineering will very quickly make bionics obsolete.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 10:12:44 PM by Grognard GM »
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wmarshal

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2675 on: January 26, 2023, 10:24:35 PM »
If an infant is born deaf, is it moral
to give them cybernetic implants
at birth? None of these kinds of
questions have clear answers yet.[/i]

The "we shouldn't cure kids of disabilities, because that's the genocide of a culture" argument that crept its way in to the fringes of the deaf and blind communities is rancid. If you would deny your child one of its 5 senses so they have more in common with you, you're an awful person.


Dude, baseline humans will be considered disabled in that future. It’s going to be dystopian for everyone who can’t afford bionics, not just you.

I 100% agree with this, except I think genetic engineering will very quickly make bionics obsolete.
I love the movie GATTACA. I hate that it’s a future likely to come true.

Trond

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2676 on: January 27, 2023, 12:13:04 AM »
The orc babies argument is ancient. If you want to avoid the umpteenth time it's brought up and comparisons to real life genocide, then maybe redesign orcs so they don't have babies? 40k orks and 13th Age orcs are a good example of how you can do this.

Or I could discuss interesting, adult philosophical quandaries with other adults, without worrying about triggering the perpetually offended.

Sanitizing art so as not to offend isn't something I'd personally shoot for.
[a group is playing a game of D&D]
GM: You find a room full of orc babies lying defenseless in their cribs.
Paladin's Player: I move from crib to crib, slaughtering each baby orc in turn.
Rest of the group: Dude, what the fuck is wrong with you?!
Paladin's Player: They're evil! I'm just roleplaying what my character would do!


Deliberately setting out to avoid situations like that is "sanitizing art"? The above situation is deliberately offensive caricature, not art. I would never want to play with people who would want to play that seriously. Anyone who wants to play something like that is fucking insane, full stop. I expect that kind of idiotic genocide apologism shit from CalArt tumblr sjw cartoons, not fantasy books by sane people!


IT’S A GAME

Spinachcat

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2677 on: January 27, 2023, 03:55:59 AM »
40k's orcs are plant based. There's no orc babies. Just seedlings and saplings.

If killing evil babies is an issue that you don't want in your campaign, just assume evil creatures are made or grown, not born, so there's never a baby version.

As Trond said, "It's a game" and that goes in every direction. If some element of a setting is causing agita at your table, nuke that element from orbit.

Grognard GM

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2678 on: January 27, 2023, 04:14:21 AM »
If some element of a setting is causing agita at your table, nuke that element from orbit.

Or if it's all coming from one player, nuke the player.
I'm a middle aged guy with a lot of free time, looking for similar, to form a group for regular gaming. You should be chill, non-woke, and have time on your hands.

See below:

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Trond

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2679 on: January 27, 2023, 09:16:34 AM »
To expand a bit further; I’m a big believer in that games and entertainment are a way to “let out steam”. Violence has been steadily decreasing over the decades, and I think that increased availability of various forms of entertainment is a big part of the reason. I personally think that some games are distasteful, but that’s not saying that nobody should play them. Similarly with movies, millions of people liked Silence of the Lambs, particularly because of Hannibal Lecter. Should we now look at those with suspicion, because there MIGHT BE an actual serial killer somewhere in that mass of people? No.

Ghostmaker

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2680 on: January 27, 2023, 09:29:07 AM »
40k's orcs are plant based. There's no orc babies. Just seedlings and saplings.

If killing evil babies is an issue that you don't want in your campaign, just assume evil creatures are made or grown, not born, so there's never a baby version.

As Trond said, "It's a game" and that goes in every direction. If some element of a setting is causing agita at your table, nuke that element from orbit.
Well, fungal-based, but your point is still correct.

It never fails to amaze me how shallow these people are. It's YOUR GAME. If you don't like how orcs (or anything else) are portrayed, CHANGE IT.

And cripes, it's not like there aren't a bazillion other bad guys to use.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2681 on: January 27, 2023, 10:04:07 AM »
I’m not the one who dismissed the 40k approach out of hand. That’s what got me rankled in the first place

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2682 on: January 27, 2023, 10:31:29 AM »
That dumpster fire of an ogl thread on TBP is so fun. Watching people skate close to bans (some dude ate a thread ban). The amount of time and energy spent is so enjoying to watch. All the armchair IANAL going on. All the people saying it'll go to court if WotC deauthorizes. No it won't, WotC will spend you into the ground even if you're morally right. I'm giddy! LOL
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 10:33:00 AM by Thorn Drumheller »
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Grognard GM

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2683 on: January 27, 2023, 12:02:21 PM »
I’m not the one who dismissed the 40k approach out of hand. That’s what got me rankled in the first place

You stomped in accusing people with different sensibilities of being genocidal lunatics and idiots, then laid your ideas for 'fixing' the Orc 'problem' before us like the Ten Commandments.

You're not the arbiter of what is or isn't appropriate for games. You don't represent some imaginary majority of gamers. We're not Serfs.

I'm a middle aged guy with a lot of free time, looking for similar, to form a group for regular gaming. You should be chill, non-woke, and have time on your hands.

See below:

https://www.therpgsite.com/news-and-adverts/looking-to-form-a-group-of-people-with-lots-of-spare-time-for-regular-games/

lonewolf23k

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2684 on: January 28, 2023, 07:06:03 PM »
Hi folks.  New to the forum, after getting a 1-week ban from rpg.net for "violating forum rules" for a post inside a thread on "Racism in the D&D Monster Manual" where I dared to suggest tying mental ability score bonuses and penalties to culture, and apparently daring to suggest a culture with poor education might leave characters with a penality to intelligence might be seen as "either racist or ableist", without even warning that my post might be seen as offensive.

The Mods really are turning into draconian thought police over there, aren't they?