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Author Topic: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)  (Read 306517 times)

Grognard GM

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2595 on: January 25, 2023, 02:37:20 PM »
Wait... I refuse to go to TBP every since they banned me, but how is Gary Gygax a supporter of "violent white supremacy", now?

He was a straight white man, and he lived in the past. That's 4 reasons right there.
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wmarshal

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2596 on: January 25, 2023, 02:44:46 PM »
Wait... I refuse to go to TBP every since they banned me, but how is Gary Gygax a supporter of "violent white supremacy", now?
It’s the equivalent of Original Sin for the Woke. Since Gary died before he had an opportunity to become Woke himself he remains forever guilty of violent white supremacy as do all white people who have not become Woke.

That’s how the Woke secular theology works, but don’t liken it to a religion! It’s completely rational, and not at all like a religion.

In fact it’s much worse than any typical religion. By claiming to be secular and rational they’re giving themselves carte blanche to any position they want to take. Doubt is banished. Because it’s relatively new they have no large body of history to review for where they might have made mistakes, or to learn any sense of temperament.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2597 on: January 25, 2023, 02:49:28 PM »
There's the swordpoint conversion quote in “From the Sorceror’s Scroll”:
Quote
“A Paladin could well force conversion at swordpoint, and, once acceptance of ‘the true way’ was expressed, dispatch the new convert on the spot. This assures that the prodigal will not return to the former evil ways, sends the now-saved spirit on to a better place, and incidentally rids the world of a potential troublemaker. Such actions are ‘good,’ in these ways:

1. Evil is abridged (by at least one creature).
2. Good has gained a convert.
3. The convert now has hope for rewards (rather than torment) in the afterlife.
4. The good populace is safer (by a factor of at least 1).

It is therefore possible for a Paladin to, in fact, actually perform a ‘mercy killing’ such as the inquiring player asked about, provided the tenets of his or her theology permitted it. While unlikely, it is possible.”

Also, the "nits make lice" quote which refers to the genocide of native Americans. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197268&sid=191c5ae818e9826fa3a8736857f839a3#p197268

I wish Gygax was around to defend himself, because these quotes sound absolutely revolting to me and make good little different than evil. By this metric, the greatest good would be to convert and kill all living things. Which is obviously insane and I don't think Gygax meant that. He was responding to strawman arguments, so I suspect he got overzealous and ended up making an "omnicide is good" argument by mistake.

rytrasmi

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2598 on: January 25, 2023, 02:52:32 PM »
Wait... I refuse to go to TBP every since they banned me, but how is Gary Gygax a supporter of "violent white supremacy", now?
Hey doncha know? Saying slightly insensitive things is the very definition of violent white supremacy!!!

These people are fucked in the head, absolute silk slippers crowd with no actual problems in their life they have to invent imaginary problems to solve. Have you ever had a friend or family member suddenly start to obsess over stupid pointless shit? 9 times out of 10 they got bored because the series they were watching finished, their ex changed the netflix password, or whatever and they have nothing better to do.

These people just bob around in their diarrhea filled hot tub that recirculates the same warm liquid crap continuously because they are too fearful to get out and do something and talk to real people.

If they actually met Gary, he'd probably be like hey wanna play and elf game?

It they actually met a violent white supremacist, it would be vastly different.

There's no saving them, aside from kicking in their door and forcibly removing them from their bullshit cocoon and taking them out to get drunk and mix with regular people.
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The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
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Bruwulf

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2599 on: January 25, 2023, 03:08:33 PM »
There's the swordpoint conversion quote in “From the Sorceror’s Scroll”:
Quote
“A Paladin could well force conversion at swordpoint, and, once acceptance of ‘the true way’ was expressed, dispatch the new convert on the spot. This assures that the prodigal will not return to the former evil ways, sends the now-saved spirit on to a better place, and incidentally rids the world of a potential troublemaker. Such actions are ‘good,’ in these ways:

1. Evil is abridged (by at least one creature).
2. Good has gained a convert.
3. The convert now has hope for rewards (rather than torment) in the afterlife.
4. The good populace is safer (by a factor of at least 1).

It is therefore possible for a Paladin to, in fact, actually perform a ‘mercy killing’ such as the inquiring player asked about, provided the tenets of his or her theology permitted it. While unlikely, it is possible.”

Also, the "nits make lice" quote which refers to the genocide of native Americans. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197268&sid=191c5ae818e9826fa3a8736857f839a3#p197268

I wish Gygax was around to defend himself, because these quotes sound absolutely revolting to me and make good little different than evil. By this metric, the greatest good would be to convert and kill all living things. Which is obviously insane and I don't think Gygax meant that. He was responding to strawman arguments, so I suspect he got overzealous and ended up making an "omnicide is good" argument by mistake.

I will say, I don't think I can really truck with Gary's understanding of "good".

"Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before thay can backslide."

That... is not a good act.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 03:49:21 PM by Bruwulf »

Grognard GM

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2600 on: January 25, 2023, 03:25:42 PM »
Also, the "nits make lice" quote which refers to the genocide of native Americans. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197268&sid=191c5ae818e9826fa3a8736857f839a3#p197268

The thing is, American Indians are not born inherently evil. In D&D though, there are whole races that are inherently evil, and their very existence is a blight on the realm.

Orc babies in D&D really are going to grow up to mass rape and kill, and niceness and education isn't going to stop it. They were made by an evil god, to resemble that evil god, who constantly eggs them on spiritually.

This is just more of the 'grafting real world groups on to fantasy races' crap we're currently wading through.

So, do I think a Paladin would kill Orc babies? No. Because to be pure enough to be a Paladin, you shouldn't always be practical.
Should a sensible warrior put them to the sword? I'd argue yes.

Good people killing redeemed prisoners so they die good is just pants-on-head nonsense.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 03:30:17 PM by Grognard GM »
I'm a middle aged guy with a lot of free time, looking for similar, to form a group for regular gaming. You should be chill, non-woke, and have time on your hands.

See below:

https://www.therpgsite.com/news-and-adverts/looking-to-form-a-group-of-people-with-lots-of-spare-time-for-regular-games/

wmarshal

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2601 on: January 25, 2023, 03:49:53 PM »
There's the swordpoint conversion quote in “From the Sorceror’s Scroll”:
Quote
“A Paladin could well force conversion at swordpoint, and, once acceptance of ‘the true way’ was expressed, dispatch the new convert on the spot. This assures that the prodigal will not return to the former evil ways, sends the now-saved spirit on to a better place, and incidentally rids the world of a potential troublemaker. Such actions are ‘good,’ in these ways:

1. Evil is abridged (by at least one creature).
2. Good has gained a convert.
3. The convert now has hope for rewards (rather than torment) in the afterlife.
4. The good populace is safer (by a factor of at least 1).

It is therefore possible for a Paladin to, in fact, actually perform a ‘mercy killing’ such as the inquiring player asked about, provided the tenets of his or her theology permitted it. While unlikely, it is possible.”

Also, the "nits make lice" quote which refers to the genocide of native Americans. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197268&sid=191c5ae818e9826fa3a8736857f839a3#p197268

I wish Gygax was around to defend himself, because these quotes sound absolutely revolting to me and make good little different than evil. By this metric, the greatest good would be to convert and kill all living things. Which is obviously insane and I don't think Gygax meant that. He was responding to strawman arguments, so I suspect he got overzealous and ended up making an "omnicide is good" argument by mistake.

I will say, I don't I can really truck with Gary's understanding of "good".

"Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before thay can backslide."

That... is not a good act.
We’re not going to be able to revisit that topic with Gary to see if there’s any nuance to it. I can see where he was coming from. Good, if excluding an objective and universally accepted definition to use as the reference point, is defined differently by man at different times.

I can see his example of a Paladin reflecting an interpretation of Lawful Good. Take a pseudo-feudal society that doesn’t not have a redemptive theology akin to Christianity, but someone who has dedicated themselves to being “Lawful Good”. You capture some bandits, and in this lane the punishment for banditry is death. In speaking with the bandits some renounce their ways, and sincerely decide to be good as defined in this setting. The Paladin is pleased by their conversion, but they were still bandits, and the penalty for banditry is death. So he kills them with no regrets. This is a setting that doesn’t have a belief system for someone being born again. Inhabitants aren’t exhorted by their theologies to be merciful to all because they are also asking for mercy from their gods.

Now, is the above situation an example of good if your table is running according to a Western and modern conception of good? Certainly not. But it could be if the table was approaching morality differently. I won’t say one approach is inherently better than the other, but I think I can see where Gary was coming from on that particular day as he was probably typing back an answer in the space of 5 minutes.

Bruwulf

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2602 on: January 25, 2023, 04:04:28 PM »
I can see his example of a Paladin reflecting an interpretation of Lawful Good. Take a pseudo-feudal society that doesn’t not have a redemptive theology akin to Christianity, but someone who has dedicated themselves to being “Lawful Good”. You capture some bandits, and in this lane the punishment for banditry is death. In speaking with the bandits some renounce their ways, and sincerely decide to be good as defined in this setting. The Paladin is pleased by their conversion, but they were still bandits, and the penalty for banditry is death. So he kills them with no regrets. This is a setting that doesn’t have a belief system for someone being born again. Inhabitants aren’t exhorted by their theologies to be merciful to all because they are also asking for mercy from their gods.

That's Lawful. It isn't Good. Lawful Good requires both elements. There's a reason they are two separate axis. Hell, paladins are a class that is basically objective, metaphysical Good incarnate, and can sense objective, metaphysical evil... despite their alignment restrictions, they don't really have any law/chaos powers. If anything, the "good" element should be more important than the "lawful" element. Otherwise, you get... Well. Bluntly, you get the stereotype of the "lawful asshole" Paladin, which seems to be what Gary is supporting.

Hey, look, he's the grandfather of our hobby, I'm not trying to vilify him, just saying... on this point, I disagree with his interpretation.

Dan Davenport

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2603 on: January 25, 2023, 04:12:33 PM »
I can see his example of a Paladin reflecting an interpretation of Lawful Good. Take a pseudo-feudal society that doesn’t not have a redemptive theology akin to Christianity, but someone who has dedicated themselves to being “Lawful Good”. You capture some bandits, and in this lane the punishment for banditry is death. In speaking with the bandits some renounce their ways, and sincerely decide to be good as defined in this setting. The Paladin is pleased by their conversion, but they were still bandits, and the penalty for banditry is death. So he kills them with no regrets. This is a setting that doesn’t have a belief system for someone being born again. Inhabitants aren’t exhorted by their theologies to be merciful to all because they are also asking for mercy from their gods.

That's Lawful. It isn't Good. Lawful Good requires both elements. There's a reason they are two separate axis. Hell, paladins are a class that is basically objective, metaphysical Good incarnate, and can sense objective, metaphysical evil... despite their alignment restrictions, they don't really have any law/chaos powers. If anything, the "good" element should be more important than the "lawful" element. Otherwise, you get... Well. Bluntly, you get the stereotype of the "lawful asshole" Paladin, which seems to be what Gary is supporting.

Hey, look, he's the grandfather of our hobby, I'm not trying to vilify him, just saying... on this point, I disagree with his interpretation.

I'm inclined to agree. If you insist on "following the rules" regardless of whether the required action is good or evil, you aren't Lawful Good -- you're Lawful Neutral.
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Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2604 on: January 25, 2023, 04:17:11 PM »
You capture some bandits, and in this lane the punishment for banditry is death. In speaking with the bandits some renounce their ways, and sincerely decide to be good as defined in this setting. The Paladin is pleased by their conversion, but they were still bandits, and the penalty for banditry is death. So he kills them with no regrets.

That's Lawful. It isn't Good. Lawful Good requires both elements.

Bear in mind that paladins are, by definition, knights, and in a feudal society knights are, by definition, authorized to enforce justice. So it's not the same situation as it is in modern Western law where policing, judicial, and state power of execution are all deliberately separated out by function; this is a society which sees nothing wrong with one person being authorized to do all of the above as needed in any given situation. Even in our own society, conversion and sincere repentance isn't considered to automatically justify commuting a death sentence if someone's earned it by their crimes.

Now you may believe that capital punishment is in itself an evil thing, but again, that's a product of our time, not the sorts of environments in which paladins typically exist. Even today, the Catholic Church still teaches that capital punishment is in principle a licit use of state power (although most actual Catholics tend to be against it as a matter of practical policy, given the limits of fallible human law enforcement and justice establishments).
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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2605 on: January 25, 2023, 04:17:50 PM »
Reading that whole column and other early Gygaxian works on the topic give me a strong sense of divine command ethics--it primarily matters if your deity approves or not. I have issues with divine command ethics to begin with, and trying to shoehorn them into a polytheistic structure only exacerbates them.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2606 on: January 25, 2023, 04:25:02 PM »
Also, the "nits make lice" quote which refers to the genocide of native Americans. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197268&sid=191c5ae818e9826fa3a8736857f839a3#p197268

The thing is, American Indians are not born inherently evil. In D&D though, there are whole races that are inherently evil, and their very existence is a blight on the realm.

Orc babies in D&D really are going to grow up to mass rape and kill, and niceness and education isn't going to stop it. They were made by an evil god, to resemble that evil god, who constantly eggs them on spiritually.

This is just more of the 'grafting real world groups on to fantasy races' crap we're currently wading through.

So, do I think a Paladin would kill Orc babies? No. Because to be pure enough to be a Paladin, you shouldn't always be practical.
Should a sensible warrior put them to the sword? I'd argue yes.

Good people killing redeemed prisoners so they die good is just pants-on-head nonsense.
Gary was the one who made the comparison by quoting a real genocidal lunatic.

The orc babies argument is ancient. If you want to avoid the umpteenth time it's brought up and comparisons to real life genocide, then maybe redesign orcs so they don't have babies? 40k orks and 13th Age orcs are a good example of how you can do this.

There's the swordpoint conversion quote in “From the Sorceror’s Scroll”:
Quote
“A Paladin could well force conversion at swordpoint, and, once acceptance of ‘the true way’ was expressed, dispatch the new convert on the spot. This assures that the prodigal will not return to the former evil ways, sends the now-saved spirit on to a better place, and incidentally rids the world of a potential troublemaker. Such actions are ‘good,’ in these ways:

1. Evil is abridged (by at least one creature).
2. Good has gained a convert.
3. The convert now has hope for rewards (rather than torment) in the afterlife.
4. The good populace is safer (by a factor of at least 1).

It is therefore possible for a Paladin to, in fact, actually perform a ‘mercy killing’ such as the inquiring player asked about, provided the tenets of his or her theology permitted it. While unlikely, it is possible.”

Also, the "nits make lice" quote which refers to the genocide of native Americans. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197268&sid=191c5ae818e9826fa3a8736857f839a3#p197268

I wish Gygax was around to defend himself, because these quotes sound absolutely revolting to me and make good little different than evil. By this metric, the greatest good would be to convert and kill all living things. Which is obviously insane and I don't think Gygax meant that. He was responding to strawman arguments, so I suspect he got overzealous and ended up making an "omnicide is good" argument by mistake.

I will say, I don't think I can really truck with Gary's understanding of "good".

"Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before thay can backslide."

That... is not a good act.
No, it isn't a good act.

It is also a genuine theological dilemma. If people go to go to hell for sinning, then it makes perfect sense to convert and exterminate everyone so that they don't risk sinning and going to hell.

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2607 on: January 25, 2023, 04:41:42 PM »
If people go to go to hell for sinning, then it makes perfect sense to convert and exterminate everyone so that they don't risk sinning and going to hell.

Only if you assume that any given mortal is justly authorized to make that decision for any other on a general basis. Which is why most religions include both specific commandments ("Thou shalt not murder") and general traditions ("Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord") telling their worshippers that they're not.
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wmarshal

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2608 on: January 25, 2023, 04:43:16 PM »
I can see his example of a Paladin reflecting an interpretation of Lawful Good. Take a pseudo-feudal society that doesn’t not have a redemptive theology akin to Christianity, but someone who has dedicated themselves to being “Lawful Good”. You capture some bandits, and in this lane the punishment for banditry is death. In speaking with the bandits some renounce their ways, and sincerely decide to be good as defined in this setting. The Paladin is pleased by their conversion, but they were still bandits, and the penalty for banditry is death. So he kills them with no regrets. This is a setting that doesn’t have a belief system for someone being born again. Inhabitants aren’t exhorted by their theologies to be merciful to all because they are also asking for mercy from their gods.

That's Lawful. It isn't Good. Lawful Good requires both elements. There's a reason they are two separate axis. Hell, paladins are a class that is basically objective, metaphysical Good incarnate, and can sense objective, metaphysical evil... despite their alignment restrictions, they don't really have any law/chaos powers. If anything, the "good" element should be more important than the "lawful" element. Otherwise, you get... Well. Bluntly, you get the stereotype of the "lawful asshole" Paladin, which seems to be what Gary is supporting.

Hey, look, he's the grandfather of our hobby, I'm not trying to vilify him, just saying... on this point, I disagree with his interpretation.
I think your interpretation of good is strongly based on a modern mindset.

Moses orders the the destruction of the Midianites. When his army comes back after killing all the Midianite men, but with the Midianite women and children as prisoners God’s prophet is outraged. He orders the subsequent execution of all male children and females who weren’t virgins. When the Hebrews were commanded by God to take Canaan, they were commanded to kill every man, woman and child. If you’re a believer in the Bible following a command by God is inherently good. It doesn’t come close to a modern conception of good. You may not think this is Lawful Good behavior, but I imagine for thousands of years after, the vast majority of Hebrews/Jews, early Christians , modern fundamentalists would describe those actions as fitting within Lawful Good if asked to put them into the 9-point alignment system.

We may be getting off topic.

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2609 on: January 25, 2023, 04:54:21 PM »
Orc babies in D&D really are going to grow up to mass rape and kill, and niceness and education isn't going to stop it.

And even if it did, the act of taking children from their native culture and educating them in a radically different culture and belief system, however superior or beneficial you think that culture, is also considered to be a grave moral evil by the people objecting to the "evil race" trope. So there really isn't any way to answer that particular complaint, at least not from within its own philosophy.
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