RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)

[Mistwell]

This is what you guys just described as "let into a public building, wandered about, and harmed no one. "

No rational human being can watch what happened and honestly pretend they were let into the building, and just wandered about and harmed no one.

   Though I agree with your statement here.....the statement they harmed no one is as true as you acting as if they murdered someone.

We can agree to disagree on whether the guy who stroked out after getting his head beat in was murder or not. I don't think we can disagree that they were "let in" to the capital and just "wandered about and harmed no one." If Antifa had done what's shown in that video, you guys wouldn't dream of describing it that way.

    Do not say "guys" as I did not describe it that way.  I just said you are full of shit about the murder angle (and the M.E. and apparently the DA agree with me ...https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-died-natural-causes/)  and you are.    You want to compare trespass and vandalism with murder and arson.

There is no question they directly intentionally injured police officers. There is no question they did a huge amount of damage. They attacked police. Many were sent to the hospital with real injuries from real violent attacks. There isn't any way to see what happened in those videos, and pretend it's not along the same level as antifa stuff. It's just plain bullshit to pretend otherwise and claim they were "let in" and just "wandered the halls without harming anyone". It's NOT just trespass and vandalism.

[Mistwell]

We can agree to disagree on whether the guy who stroked out after getting his head beat in was murder or not. I don't think we can disagree that they were "let in" to the capital and just "wandered about and harmed no one." If Antifa had done what's shown in that video, you guys wouldn't dream of describing it that way.

Except that's exactly what happened.

There were some unruly but mostly peaceful protesters on one side of the building, who pushed some cops but generally behaved far better than most leftist rioters, because they didn't kill anyone, burn anything down, destroy any businesses, steal any TVs, or even come into the presence of a single lawmaker (except for AOC, who I believe has reported that they killed her at least a dozen times).

But on the other side of the building, the cops opened the barriers, waved people in, and are on video saying things like "I disagree with you, but I respect your right to protest". The protesters were invited in, wandered around, and stayed within the barriers.

And guess which group has been raided by the FBI, held in solitary confinement for over a year with trial, and forced into plea deals with threats of federal crimes with potential prison sentences of more than 20 years? Correct! Members of both groups! They're exactly the same!

Naw man, you're refusing to watch the video of what happened. Because that's what you do. They directly assault police with intent to injure them. No escaping that conclusion. They were not "unruly" they were attacking police with weapons. Just fucking watch the video Pat. Stop this ostrich stuff.

[Pat]

We can agree to disagree on whether the guy who stroked out after getting his head beat in was murder or not. I don't think we can disagree that they were "let in" to the capital and just "wandered about and harmed no one." If Antifa had done what's shown in that video, you guys wouldn't dream of describing it that way.

Except that's exactly what happened.

There were some unruly but mostly peaceful protesters on one side of the building, who pushed some cops but generally behaved far better than most leftist rioters, because they didn't kill anyone, burn anything down, destroy any businesses, steal any TVs, or even come into the presence of a single lawmaker (except for AOC, who I believe has reported that they killed her at least a dozen times).

But on the other side of the building, the cops opened the barriers, waved people in, and are on video saying things like "I disagree with you, but I respect your right to protest". The protesters were invited in, wandered around, and stayed within the barriers.

And guess which group has been raided by the FBI, held in solitary confinement for over a year with trial, and forced into plea deals with threats of federal crimes with potential prison sentences of more than 20 years? Correct! Members of both groups! They're exactly the same!

Naw man, you're refusing to watch the video of what happened. Because that's what you do. They directly assault police with intent to injure them. No escaping that conclusion. They were not "unruly" they were attacking police with weapons. Just fucking watch the video Pat. Stop this ostrich stuff.

So you didn't read a word of what I said.

Not a word.

[DocJones]

1) USCP Officer Brian Sicknick was murdered.

The Chief Medical Examiner of the District of Columbia disagrees with your conspiracy theory.

I literally just quoted him. Not my theory.

  Are you sure about that?  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-died-natural-causes/

CBS can't even bring itself to admit the "chemical substance" is known as "pepper spray".
Even Wikipedia gets it right:
"There was no evidence that Sicknick had any injuries or an allergic reaction to the chemical spray, according to a statement by the medical examiner months later.  Sicknick texted his brother on Wednesday night after the riot, reporting that he had been twice attacked with pepper spray and was in good shape.  However, Sicknick later collapsed around 10 p.m. at the Capitol and was taken to a local hospital."

[BoxCrayonTales]

growing up as a white wolf fan

First mistake right there. WW has always been a cesspit of extreme progressivism. Their flagship vampire game was originally supposed to be a radical counterculture game where you played as the weakest anarchist vampires fighting against the tyranny of the elders. The premise was co-opted and diluted, but remnants of it informed major aspects of the rules (e.g. generational limits). Their second vampire game removed this limitation and introduced mechanics that allowed characters to advance within the neofeudalist hierarchy through hard work (i.e. paying XP to increase their level) and eventually take the position of elder while the previous one went into stasis Underworld-style, which is very much pro-culture. Naturally fans of the first game hated the second because it "nerfed elders" (to the point where the devs would later introduce books countermanding all their previous creative decisions in a pointless attempt to attract the haters; I know they said they're clarifying what was always their intent, but it looks like capitulating to haters who never play the game); now they complain about V5 being woke and ruining the setting because, among other things, it outright nuked the elders. Do these people even play the game or do they just like reading the books detailing the adventures of the elder GMPCs?

Wasn't Matt later outed as a pedophile after he wrote Beast with pro-abuse rhetoric? God, I wonder how many of these WW people are sex offenders and we never knew about it.

Crayon I know you hate Whitewolf to the point it seems like it somehow personally molested you, but you're also just flat out wrong when it comes to V5 and 'giving in to the haters'. V5 is still about playing weak ass vampires compared to every other edition, and you have to go to fanmade material in order to put any kind of powerful oomph to elder Vampires.

That's neither here nor there though. I love whitewolf games, and I myself am a Libertarian Leftist. I grew up on a steady diet on Whitewolf's brand of 90s counter-culture. Onyx Path is still a progressive company and has embraced much of the current level of wokeness, but because I enjoy many of their games and worlds still, I'm able to roll my eyes and continue on when it gets too much (and the stuff I buy which is mainly all the 20th anniversary related stuff, tends to do this far less than the Chronicles of Darkness stuff like Beast/Geist/ect does).

Yeah Matt was outed as an alleged rapist for a 16 year old girl when he was 25..

But throwing blanket accusations at the rest of the old school white wolf writers is kind of uncalled for just because you don't like their stuff and their politics. None of the other writers were heavyily active on RPgnet as Mods, virtue signaling to cover up their own shitty behavior.

The second game I was talking about was Requiem, not V5. They previously had mechanics like the fog of ages and the call to hibernation which they completely reversed in later books after haters complained they didn't copy Masquerade, which incidentally rendered the unconquered coven completely pointless because it originally operated on the basis that newbies really could become elders if they worked hard.

V5 just nuked the elders outright. Had the hunters kill them all or had them fuck off to Mesopotamia. Which neatly invalidates the whole "fight the tyranny of the elders" premise.

So fuck WW/Onyx/Paradox/whoever for not being able to commit to a coherent creative vision, and fuck their whiny fans that don't have the good sense to go make their own games if they don't like WW anymore. It worked for the OSR, so it should be good enough for those entitled validation-seeking shits

[oggsmash]

This is what you guys just described as "let into a public building, wandered about, and harmed no one. "

No rational human being can watch what happened and honestly pretend they were let into the building, and just wandered about and harmed no one.

   Though I agree with your statement here.....the statement they harmed no one is as true as you acting as if they murdered someone.

We can agree to disagree on whether the guy who stroked out after getting his head beat in was murder or not. I don't think we can disagree that they were "let in" to the capital and just "wandered about and harmed no one." If Antifa had done what's shown in that video, you guys wouldn't dream of describing it that way.

    Do not say "guys" as I did not describe it that way.  I just said you are full of shit about the murder angle (and the M.E. and apparently the DA agree with me ...https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-died-natural-causes/)  and you are.    You want to compare trespass and vandalism with murder and arson.

There is no question they directly intentionally injured police officers. There is no question they did a huge amount of damage. They attacked police. Many were sent to the hospital with real injuries from real violent attacks. There isn't any way to see what happened in those videos, and pretend it's not along the same level as antifa stuff. It's just plain bullshit to pretend otherwise and claim they were "let in" and just "wandered the halls without harming anyone". It's NOT just trespass and vandalism.

    But did not commit murder.  You keep obfuscating or pretending they did.  Did NOT commit murder.  Which Antifa did.  as well as arson.   I also want to revoke the person's card who built that gallows...do they not teach shop class anymore? 

[jhkim]

There is no question they directly intentionally injured police officers. There is no question they did a huge amount of damage. They attacked police. Many were sent to the hospital with real injuries from real violent attacks. There isn't any way to see what happened in those videos, and pretend it's not along the same level as antifa stuff. It's just plain bullshit to pretend otherwise and claim they were "let in" and just "wandered the halls without harming anyone". It's NOT just trespass and vandalism.

    But did not commit murder.  You keep obfuscating or pretending they did.  Did NOT commit murder.  Which Antifa did.  as well as arson.

Conversely, though, you claimed (in reply #1658) that the only thing the Jan 6 rioters did was trespass and destroy property - which is also false. Mistwell specifically claims that Sicknick's death immediately following injuries at the Jan 6 riots was murder, saying that his fatal stroke hours after being pepper-sprayed was causal. I wouldn't call it that based on the medical examiner's report. Even if his stroke was a direct result of being sprayed, though, that wouldn't make all 2000+ the Jan 6 rioters murderers.

Though equally, not all Antifa are murderers if one of them commits murder either. The one antifa murder that I know of is Michael Reinoehl's killing of Aaron Danielson. It seems like Reinoehl was guilty, but he also acted alone. There are many thousands of people who call themselves antifa and there is no central organization. Antifa as a whole are violent and have committed many assaults and property destruction as part of their stated ideology, and I think it's fair to condemn them as a whole for that, but not for the actions of every individual.

There are many left-wing murderers outside of antifa, but then there are plenty of right-wing murderers as well. Given a country of 330 million with 16,000+ murders every year, it's to be expected. Our level of political violence right now remains thankfully low compared to other divisive historical periods like the 1960s or the 1920s, but it is still unacceptable.

[Mistwell]

We can agree to disagree on whether the guy who stroked out after getting his head beat in was murder or not. I don't think we can disagree that they were "let in" to the capital and just "wandered about and harmed no one." If Antifa had done what's shown in that video, you guys wouldn't dream of describing it that way.

Except that's exactly what happened.

There were some unruly but mostly peaceful protesters on one side of the building, who pushed some cops but generally behaved far better than most leftist rioters, because they didn't kill anyone, burn anything down, destroy any businesses, steal any TVs, or even come into the presence of a single lawmaker (except for AOC, who I believe has reported that they killed her at least a dozen times).

But on the other side of the building, the cops opened the barriers, waved people in, and are on video saying things like "I disagree with you, but I respect your right to protest". The protesters were invited in, wandered around, and stayed within the barriers.

And guess which group has been raided by the FBI, held in solitary confinement for over a year with trial, and forced into plea deals with threats of federal crimes with potential prison sentences of more than 20 years? Correct! Members of both groups! They're exactly the same!

Naw man, you're refusing to watch the video of what happened. Because that's what you do. They directly assault police with intent to injure them. No escaping that conclusion. They were not "unruly" they were attacking police with weapons. Just fucking watch the video Pat. Stop this ostrich stuff.

So you didn't read a word of what I said.

Not a word.

"There were some unruly but mostly peaceful protesters on one side of the building, who pushed some cops but generally behaved far better than most leftist rioters"

That is not a rational thought for anyone who watched what happened.

[Pat]

We can agree to disagree on whether the guy who stroked out after getting his head beat in was murder or not. I don't think we can disagree that they were "let in" to the capital and just "wandered about and harmed no one." If Antifa had done what's shown in that video, you guys wouldn't dream of describing it that way.

Except that's exactly what happened.

There were some unruly but mostly peaceful protesters on one side of the building, who pushed some cops but generally behaved far better than most leftist rioters, because they didn't kill anyone, burn anything down, destroy any businesses, steal any TVs, or even come into the presence of a single lawmaker (except for AOC, who I believe has reported that they killed her at least a dozen times).

But on the other side of the building, the cops opened the barriers, waved people in, and are on video saying things like "I disagree with you, but I respect your right to protest". The protesters were invited in, wandered around, and stayed within the barriers.

And guess which group has been raided by the FBI, held in solitary confinement for over a year with trial, and forced into plea deals with threats of federal crimes with potential prison sentences of more than 20 years? Correct! Members of both groups! They're exactly the same!

Naw man, you're refusing to watch the video of what happened. Because that's what you do. They directly assault police with intent to injure them. No escaping that conclusion. They were not "unruly" they were attacking police with weapons. Just fucking watch the video Pat. Stop this ostrich stuff.

So you didn't read a word of what I said.

Not a word.

"There were some unruly but mostly peaceful protesters on one side of the building, who pushed some cops but generally behaved far better than most leftist rioters"

That is not a rational thought for anyone who watched what happened.

It absolutely is. They burned down no buildings. They weren't in the elevators, screaming in the face of legislators. They didn't kill anyone. They behaved far better than most leftist rioters.

[Battlemaster]

If black protesters pushed police who were attacking them, they would have been gunned down En masse. The Trump crowd wants to see black protestors beaten down, gassed and shot.  But when they attack cops,  beat them with poles and fire extinguishers it's all good. And they whine about ashli babbit being killed but cheer about George Floyd's murder.

Fucking hypocritical scum.

[Pat]

If black protesters pushed police who were attacking them, they would have been gunned down En masse.

We've had years of black (and lily white Antifa) protesters violently engaging with cops, and no massacres.

Are you really this fucking racist?

[Tait Ransom]

If black protesters pushed police who were attacking them, they would have been gunned down En masse.

False.  We had ongoing BLM riots and this didn't happen, even when they attacked and burned a police station.

The Trump crowd wants to see black protestors beaten down, gassed and shot.

False, but false accusations of racism are to be expected these days.

But when they attack cops,  beat them with poles and fire extinguishers it's all good.

This has already been addressed upthread.  Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it suddenly true.

And they whine about ashli babbit being killed but cheer about George Floyd's murder.

Fucking hypocritical scum.

Whatever helps you feel better about yourself, man.

[jeff37923]

If black protesters pushed police who were attacking them, they would have been gunned down En masse. The Trump crowd wants to see black protestors beaten down, gassed and shot.  But when they attack cops,  beat them with poles and fire extinguishers it's all good. And they whine about ashli babbit being killed but cheer about George Floyd's murder.

Fucking hypocritical scum.

List George Floyd's redeeming qualities. All I've been able to find is that he was a criminal junkie.

[Ratman_tf]

This is what you guys just described as "let into a public building, wandered about, and harmed no one. "

No rational human being can watch what happened and honestly pretend they were let into the building, and just wandered about and harmed no one.

The Democrats desperately want to draw attention away from Sleepy Joe and his terrible presidency.

The Jan 6 riots were stupid and dangerous. The one death was the woman who was shot by security. But the Dems are using this event for political leverage, nothing more.

[Ratman_tf]

If black protesters pushed police who were attacking them, they would have been gunned down En masse.

We've literally had two years of demonstrations to the contrary.