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Author Topic: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)  (Read 306546 times)

Trond

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #465 on: November 12, 2021, 11:07:16 AM »

Not just there being slaves in the game, but the implication (of Broken's original idea) that PCs in an RPG based on Magic: The Gathering would effectively be slavers as part of the game's expected action -- the creatures in an M:tG deck would have to be a planewalker's absolutely obedient possessions and could be acquired and traded between walkers, which amounts to much the same thing.

I have to admit, I'm generally a non-woke person and even I don't think that's a particularly good idea. (Would anyone play a "Ticket to Ride"-style economic empire builder game about running the mid-Atlantic slave trade?)

The difference is that I still think it's better to shine light on such ideas and have them debated away, not squelched as ipso facto inadmissible.

When it comes to entertainment I'm hardliner: I don't really care if people are playing serial killers or child molesters, as long as they're just saying it (or even drawing it). I might raise an eyebrow at the ickyness, and say that this is not something I'm interested in, but whatever. As a supporting note; I don't think I have ever heard of a murder spree being inspired by the music of Cannibal Corpse. In fact, I think the general effect is the opposite; entertainment and "blowing off steam" tends to lower our tendency towards violence, and I do have some general observations over time that supports this.

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #466 on: November 12, 2021, 12:01:22 PM »
When it comes to entertainment I'm hardliner: I don't really care if people are playing serial killers or child molesters, as long as they're just saying it (or even drawing it). I might raise an eyebrow at the ickyness, and say that this is not something I'm interested in, but whatever.

I partly agree, partly disagree.  On the one hand fantasy and art are not reality, and don't have the same moral weight.  On the other, what somebody chooses to fantasize about doing, in at least a semi-personally-identifying vicarious way, for his own enjoyment can raise valid warning flags, and there are subjects and courses of fantasized action which invite more such flags than others.

I think it's valid to say that objecting to a player who wants to spend game time on enslaving NPCs and slave-trading, or to a game which encouraged such choices as an expected and prominent course of action for PCs, goes beyond personal ickyness. However, I reject TBP's approach because it's clear they consider even raising such topics to be tantamount to endorsing them, and are reading any reported complaint assuming the worst possible bad faith on the part of whoever is complained about.

Quote
I don't think I have ever heard of a murder spree being inspired by the music of Cannibal Corpse. In fact, I think the general effect is the opposite; entertainment and "blowing off steam" tends to lower our tendency towards violence, and I do have some general observations over time that supports this.

Again, I agree and disagree. For most people fantasy can be a valid and safe way to exorcise antisocial impulses, but there are people for which certain fantasies only serve as fuel for the boiler pressure within rather than as a relief valve -- the fantasies don't create that damage, but they can aggravate it and sometimes disastrously trigger it. It's unfair to assume fantasy is always a direct precursor or indicator of reality, but it's naive to treat them as completely separate and unconnected; one has to get down to brass tacks about specific people before one can make judgements in either direction this way.

TBP's error, as above, is to think it's both possible and morally obligatory to prevent people taking the discussion of fantasy topics to unhealthy directions or extremes by prohibiting any discussion of all of certain topics, on the grounds there can't possibly be enough "healthy" use of them to justify permitting it even in a fantasy environment. This, again, I reject on the grounds that it's a pre-emptive assumption of the worst possible context, without taking specific individuals into account.
Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. -- Mark Twain

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Neoplatonist1

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #467 on: November 12, 2021, 05:45:48 PM »
I think it's valid to say that objecting to a player who wants to spend game time on enslaving NPCs and slave-trading, or to a game which encouraged such choices as an expected and prominent course of action for PCs, goes beyond personal ickyness.

What about players who want to portray, I don't know, vampires?

Kiero

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #468 on: November 12, 2021, 06:05:20 PM »
Is that cunt Darren MacLennan still a mod on the purple shithole?
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Nephil

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #469 on: November 12, 2021, 06:28:58 PM »
Is that cunt Darren MacLennan still a mod on the purple shithole?

Yep. Cannibal smily or some shit.

Ghostmaker

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #470 on: November 12, 2021, 09:47:16 PM »
Is that cunt Darren MacLennan still a mod on the purple shithole?

Yep. Cannibal smily or some shit.
Yup. He's Cannibal Smiliest. Though I haven't seen much out of him of late. He was last on 11/4, but his last post was on 9/25. Curious.

In the meantime: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/kettlehelm-receives-a-🚫-three-day-ban.889512/

They don't even like oblique mentions of ACKS. It's kind of funny in a way.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/komradebob-receives-a-🔴-warning-and-threadban.889513/

This one needs some context. I think komradebob was sarcastically responding back to a comment that OSR and storygaming were the same thing. So of course, Dawgstar gets the chance to wave his tiny dick around. I am unsurprised.

psiconauta_retro

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #471 on: November 13, 2021, 02:28:38 AM »

In the meantime: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/kettlehelm-receives-a-🚫-three-day-ban.889512/

They don't even like oblique mentions of ACKS. It's kind of funny in a way.


This called my attention, does anybody know which are the games banned to talk about on TBP? Maybe they are interesting reads...

Even more, does anybody know why they are banned?

Ratman_tf

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #472 on: November 13, 2021, 05:28:53 AM »

In the meantime: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/kettlehelm-receives-a-🚫-three-day-ban.889512/

They don't even like oblique mentions of ACKS. It's kind of funny in a way.


This called my attention, does anybody know which are the games banned to talk about on TBP? Maybe they are interesting reads...

Even more, does anybody know why they are banned?

In the case of ACKS...

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/acks-autarch-added-to-forbidden-topics-list.830945/
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Neoplatonist1

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #473 on: November 13, 2021, 12:41:06 PM »

In the meantime: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/kettlehelm-receives-a-🚫-three-day-ban.889512/

They don't even like oblique mentions of ACKS. It's kind of funny in a way.


This called my attention, does anybody know which are the games banned to talk about on TBP? Maybe they are interesting reads...

Even more, does anybody know why they are banned?

In the case of ACKS...

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/acks-autarch-added-to-forbidden-topics-list.830945/

Good to see badwrongfun marches on.

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #474 on: November 13, 2021, 01:43:10 PM »
What about players who want to portray, I don't know, vampires?

Or murderhobos?

With vampires specifically, at least in The Big Vampire Game, it's generally assumed that no PC becomes a vampire by full informed consent, and that particular game also makes it inherently part of the rules that vampires are innately self-destructive. Vampires also have the advantage (in this context) of not actually being real.

Turn it around and use another crime of equal moral turpitude, then: would most people's (I assume) dislike of a game that required its PCs to be drug dealers or sex traffickers be mere "ickyness"?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 01:46:17 PM by Stephen Tannhauser »
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Fergurg

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #475 on: November 13, 2021, 03:25:50 PM »

In the meantime: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/kettlehelm-receives-a-🚫-three-day-ban.889512/

They don't even like oblique mentions of ACKS. It's kind of funny in a way.


This called my attention, does anybody know which are the games banned to talk about on TBP? Maybe they are interesting reads...

Even more, does anybody know why they are banned?

In the case of ACKS...

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/acks-autarch-added-to-forbidden-topics-list.830945/

Let’s think about this a minute. It is so important for TBP to call Autarch a Nazi, they are incapable of allowing others to discuss his games without doing so.

Neoplatonist1

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #476 on: November 13, 2021, 05:09:39 PM »
What about players who want to portray, I don't know, vampires?

Or murderhobos?

With vampires specifically, at least in The Big Vampire Game, it's generally assumed that no PC becomes a vampire by full informed consent, and that particular game also makes it inherently part of the rules that vampires are innately self-destructive. Vampires also have the advantage (in this context) of not actually being real.

Unreal, unwilling, and self-destructive or not, it's still presuming player-characters who commit aggravated assault and murder on a regular basis.

Quote
Turn it around and use another crime of equal moral turpitude, then: would most people's (I assume) dislike of a game that required its PCs to be drug dealers or sex traffickers be mere "ickyness"?

I think this is approaching black-and-white thinking. Who wants to play a black game where all evils are ruled in? But, a game can be gray. One might purchase slaves to redeem them, but then never have the opportunity to do so, and find oneself obliged to sell them at a later date. Then one is technically a slave-trader, even though one had the best of intentions.

Ghostmaker

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #477 on: November 14, 2021, 12:11:39 AM »
If I'm not mistaken, Macris did threaten legal action at one point. And as I've said before, when the legal notices start to roll out, playtime is done.

Of course, they wouldn't have that problem if they didn't make a habit of defaming people.

Kiero

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #478 on: November 14, 2021, 08:34:46 AM »
If I'm not mistaken, Macris did threaten legal action at one point. And as I've said before, when the legal notices start to roll out, playtime is done.

Of course, they wouldn't have that problem if they didn't make a habit of defaming people.

He is an actual lawyer and they did defame him. What did they think was going to happen?
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Trond

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #479 on: November 14, 2021, 09:43:17 AM »
When it comes to entertainment I'm hardliner: I don't really care if people are playing serial killers or child molesters, as long as they're just saying it (or even drawing it). I might raise an eyebrow at the ickyness, and say that this is not something I'm interested in, but whatever.

I partly agree, partly disagree.  On the one hand fantasy and art are not reality, and don't have the same moral weight.  On the other, what somebody chooses to fantasize about doing, in at least a semi-personally-identifying vicarious way, for his own enjoyment can raise valid warning flags, and there are subjects and courses of fantasized action which invite more such flags than others.

I think it's valid to say that objecting to a player who wants to spend game time on enslaving NPCs and slave-trading, or to a game which encouraged such choices as an expected and prominent course of action for PCs, goes beyond personal ickyness. However, I reject TBP's approach because it's clear they consider even raising such topics to be tantamount to endorsing them, and are reading any reported complaint assuming the worst possible bad faith on the part of whoever is complained about.

Quote
I don't think I have ever heard of a murder spree being inspired by the music of Cannibal Corpse. In fact, I think the general effect is the opposite; entertainment and "blowing off steam" tends to lower our tendency towards violence, and I do have some general observations over time that supports this.

Again, I agree and disagree. For most people fantasy can be a valid and safe way to exorcise antisocial impulses, but there are people for which certain fantasies only serve as fuel for the boiler pressure within rather than as a relief valve -- the fantasies don't create that damage, but they can aggravate it and sometimes disastrously trigger it. It's unfair to assume fantasy is always a direct precursor or indicator of reality, but it's naive to treat them as completely separate and unconnected; one has to get down to brass tacks about specific people before one can make judgements in either direction this way.

TBP's error, as above, is to think it's both possible and morally obligatory to prevent people taking the discussion of fantasy topics to unhealthy directions or extremes by prohibiting any discussion of all of certain topics, on the grounds there can't possibly be enough "healthy" use of them to justify permitting it even in a fantasy environment. This, again, I reject on the grounds that it's a pre-emptive assumption of the worst possible context, without taking specific individuals into account.

What exactly raises red flags in entertainment?

A number of film franchises dwell on topics resembling torture porn. I know several people who wanted to see the movie Cannibal Holocaust because it is supposed to be one of the most extreme, offensive, shocking, and disgusting films ever made. The Gor RPG does have sex slaves (I’m pretty sure based on the source material). I’m not going to tell people not to play it, because next thing you know, someone will come after the games I actually like.

Conversely, one of the world’s worst mass murderers (Breivik) was indeed hooked on some video games, and that fact was much published, but they were completely normal shooter games.