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Author Topic: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)  (Read 174721 times)

oggsmash

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2415 on: November 21, 2022, 12:38:04 PM »
  Conan STARTS as amoral and only out for number 1.  By the time he is king, he is completely different in his worldview and what he is willing to risk for others and how much he thinks through his actions before acting.   He has a large character arc and is NOT the same man as king that he was when he climbed the tower of the elephant.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2416 on: November 21, 2022, 12:48:20 PM »
I didn't name Kennedy because it's too easy to dump all the blame on her. There are a host of people at Lucasfilm that went along with this. I'm sure there's at least one other person at Disney/Lucasfilm who backed her play. Probably many.
I despise how Kennedy has run the franchise into the ground, but I also despise the people who helped it happen.

For sure Bob Iger approved her management, at least initially. "The Force Awakens" was terribly derivative, but enjoyable as a "sugar rush".

The Force Awakens was terrible and things just got worse from there.

Getting through shields by traveling through hyperspace levels of retardation.

That honestly always bothered me. Why, in the original OG lore, weren't people able to just make a massive astroid and use a hyperdrive to proper it like a weapon? Not saying I liked The Last Jedi, as it was absolute garbage, but I'd like to believe that the Extended Universe did cover that at some point?
In scifi they're called RKVs (relativistic kill vehicles) and most scifi mentions countermeasures exist to prevent them from proliferating. In the EU, at least one author mentioned they exist and are held in check by devices that can prevent hyperspace jumps. If both the rebels and the empire have casual RKVs and no countermeasures, then they realistically can't be fighting without obliterating the galaxy in the process. They'd have a cold war, or they'd wipe out 90% of the galaxy before signing a peace treaty for the sake of self-preservation. If all FTL drives are potential RKVs, then I'm pretty sure FTL travel would be tightly regulated to prevent terrorist attacks. You'd probably see a Spacing Guild formed to maintain a monopoly on space travel to prevent RKVs.

Fheredin

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2417 on: November 21, 2022, 02:05:14 PM »
Modern Hollywood doesn't understand morality because Weinstein and his ilk selected the people in Hollywood until basically no one was left who has a spine. There are a few who still try, but at the bigger scale Hollywood producers up to sleazy stuff at best don't want to spend hundreds of millions on a movie only for it to make them feel uncomfortable.

I didn't name Kennedy because it's too easy to dump all the blame on her. There are a host of people at Lucasfilm that went along with this. I'm sure there's at least one other person at Disney/Lucasfilm who backed her play. Probably many.
I despise how Kennedy has run the franchise into the ground, but I also despise the people who helped it happen.

For sure Bob Iger approved her management, at least initially. "The Force Awakens" was terribly derivative, but enjoyable as a "sugar rush".

The Force Awakens was terrible and things just got worse from there.

Getting through shields by traveling through hyperspace levels of retardation.

That honestly always bothered me. Why, in the original OG lore, weren't people able to just make a massive astroid and use a hyperdrive to proper it like a weapon? Not saying I liked The Last Jedi, as it was absolute garbage, but I'd like to believe that the Extended Universe did cover that at some point?
In scifi they're called RKVs (relativistic kill vehicles) and most scifi mentions countermeasures exist to prevent them from proliferating. In the EU, at least one author mentioned they exist and are held in check by devices that can prevent hyperspace jumps. If both the rebels and the empire have casual RKVs and no countermeasures, then they realistically can't be fighting without obliterating the galaxy in the process. They'd have a cold war, or they'd wipe out 90% of the galaxy before signing a peace treaty for the sake of self-preservation. If all FTL drives are potential RKVs, then I'm pretty sure FTL travel would be tightly regulated to prevent terrorist attacks. You'd probably see a Spacing Guild formed to maintain a monopoly on space travel to prevent RKVs.

Really, the RKV scene in TLJ would have been so easy to fix by implying that Holdo had done something to the hyperdrive and took the secret of what to her grave to prevent RKV proliferation. Great solution? No, but it would work. It's not that the movie couldn't have been saved and made somewhat sensible...it's that Rian Johnson rolled with a first draft script which didn't polish out these problems.

David Johansen

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2418 on: November 21, 2022, 02:10:01 PM »
All it takes to fix that scene is to have the imperials react with scorn and disbelief and one guy saying, "that never works."

All it takes to fix Star Killer Base being seen visually all over the republic is the launch of a few thousand projector drones.

There are bigger flaws, like Snoke being so significant but lacking much of an explanation or story arc that are harder but not impossible to fix.

Disney, on the other hand probably can't be fixed short of bankruptcy and dissolution.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 02:12:42 PM by David Johansen »
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Armchair Gamer

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2419 on: November 21, 2022, 03:11:04 PM »
That honestly always bothered me. Why, in the original OG lore, weren't people able to just make a massive astroid and use a hyperdrive to proper it like a weapon? Not saying I liked The Last Jedi, as it was absolute garbage, but I'd like to believe that the Extended Universe did cover that at some point?

   By EU rules, the asteroid would come out of hyperspace once it got within the planet's gravity well, and I think the unspoken assumption was that most planets had sufficient defenses to intercept such things in time.

Ratman_tf

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2420 on: November 22, 2022, 10:15:01 AM »
That honestly always bothered me. Why, in the original OG lore, weren't people able to just make a massive astroid and use a hyperdrive to proper it like a weapon? Not saying I liked The Last Jedi, as it was absolute garbage, but I'd like to believe that the Extended Universe did cover that at some point?

   By EU rules, the asteroid would come out of hyperspace once it got within the planet's gravity well, and I think the unspoken assumption was that most planets had sufficient defenses to intercept such things in time.

Yeah. I was under the impression that vehicles travelling via Hyperspace were intangible to real world objects, but still affected by their gravity. Thus the Interdictor class Star Destroyer.

The scene in TLJ is so spectacularly dumb because they didn't give a fig about the storytelling problems it creates, that most (all?) sci-fi fans understand.
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Bruwulf

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2421 on: November 22, 2022, 03:13:49 PM »
Yeah. I was under the impression that vehicles travelling via Hyperspace were intangible to real world objects, but still affected by their gravity. Thus the Interdictor class Star Destroyer.

The scene in TLJ is so spectacularly dumb because they didn't give a fig about the storytelling problems it creates, that most (all?) sci-fi fans understand.

"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"

Of course, that nixes the whole EU gravity well problem, but also suggests that hyperspace travel still has to worry about physical objects.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2422 on: November 22, 2022, 08:18:03 PM »
"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"

Of course, that nixes the whole EU gravity well problem, but also suggests that hyperspace travel still has to worry about physical objects.

   Well, that's also Han " 'Made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs'" Solo talking, so while he's probably right generally, I wouldn't appeal to it regarding precise technical details. :)

Ratman_tf

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2423 on: November 22, 2022, 11:51:29 PM »
Yeah. I was under the impression that vehicles travelling via Hyperspace were intangible to real world objects, but still affected by their gravity. Thus the Interdictor class Star Destroyer.

The scene in TLJ is so spectacularly dumb because they didn't give a fig about the storytelling problems it creates, that most (all?) sci-fi fans understand.

"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"


If ships travelling via hyperspace are intangible, but can be pulled out of hyperspace by gravity wells then flying through a star or bouncing too close to a supernova would be very bad.

If ships in hyperspace can impact physical objects, then any particles, asteroids, other ships, etc, etc, would "Holdo" ships all the time.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 11:57:15 PM by Ratman_tf »
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Visitor Q

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2424 on: November 23, 2022, 07:02:51 PM »
I don’t watch the vampire show because I don’t subscribe to AMC+, but that sounds to me like good old fashioned “teenager gets superpowers and murders their high school bullies” type of plot. It’s just as badly motivated. Just because someone is mean to you doesn’t mean you have any right to murder them. That’s just pettiness.

If it was framed as bad for the protagonist to become a slasher villain, then that’s one thing. This sounds like it’s framed as a good thing, which is not a healthy message to promote. “If you don’t like the way someone treats you, then you should kill them” is a terrible message.





According to the Critical Drinker, a similar thing happens in Wakanda Forever.  Not to spoil it, but a "hero" escapes by killing a mass of cops (via thrown object and explosion) who are just trying to stop them from leaving.  Something that should result in a prison sentence, but in this case goes totally without remark for the rest of the movie...

The Critical Drinker's After Hours review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPRUAqraFFY

The morality of some "heroes" is something I've found disgusting.
Like, in the extended version of LOTR, Aragorn cuts the head off the Mouth of Sauron, when in the scene in the book, it was clearly stated to be a parley that both sides honored, and Aragorn didn't just fly into a rage an behead someone over smacktalk.
Optimus Prime in the Bay films gets worse and worse. He executes a helpless foe seemingly just out of spite.
And so many stronk female characters who abuse their power to torture some dude who acted sexist.

I don't expect fictional heroes to act like saints, but I do expect them to have some kind of restraint.

In fairness neither in the book nor move does Aragorn open up with an offer of parlay but to 'Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be done upon him". This does not sound like the words of parlay but of a King preparing to pass sentence on a criminal. 

Gandalf in the movie then specifically notes they are NOT treating with Sauron but providing their sentence on him and what leniency they will grant if the sentence is followed (i.e exile or destruction).  The Mouth of Sauron responds by noting (confessing?) they have tortured and killed Frodo. 

Aragorn then executes the Mouth of Sauron in accordance with what I would imagine is pretty standard justice of the world.  In this context I don't think Aragorn acted outside his moral authority or dishonoured any norms of parlay (again he and Gandalf were very specific with their intentions).

In the book there is a bit more nuance, the scene opens in a similar way and Aragorn does reach for his sword and the Mouth acts aghast. Gandalf in fact subtly threatens the Mouth that the laws of parlay do not apply because of Sauron's behaviour and by the end of the scene does threaten the Mouth with death if he does not immediatly depart noting that the Mouth's embassy is over and the good guys have no intention of treating with Sauron.

In effect the ultimate motivations and core morality of the characters are the same in both film and book but the scene is different because of the short-term strategy of the characters in the different telling.  In the movie Aragorn and Gandalf are more upfront about passing sentence on Sauron and having no interest in further parlay, in the book Gandalf and Aragorn are willing to stall Sauron further by giving him a chance to "consider" their terms (knowing he'd refuse anyway).   



« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 07:07:46 PM by Visitor Q »

Ratman_tf

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2425 on: November 23, 2022, 11:31:33 PM »
I don’t watch the vampire show because I don’t subscribe to AMC+, but that sounds to me like good old fashioned “teenager gets superpowers and murders their high school bullies” type of plot. It’s just as badly motivated. Just because someone is mean to you doesn’t mean you have any right to murder them. That’s just pettiness.

If it was framed as bad for the protagonist to become a slasher villain, then that’s one thing. This sounds like it’s framed as a good thing, which is not a healthy message to promote. “If you don’t like the way someone treats you, then you should kill them” is a terrible message.





According to the Critical Drinker, a similar thing happens in Wakanda Forever.  Not to spoil it, but a "hero" escapes by killing a mass of cops (via thrown object and explosion) who are just trying to stop them from leaving.  Something that should result in a prison sentence, but in this case goes totally without remark for the rest of the movie...

The Critical Drinker's After Hours review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPRUAqraFFY

The morality of some "heroes" is something I've found disgusting.
Like, in the extended version of LOTR, Aragorn cuts the head off the Mouth of Sauron, when in the scene in the book, it was clearly stated to be a parley that both sides honored, and Aragorn didn't just fly into a rage an behead someone over smacktalk.
Optimus Prime in the Bay films gets worse and worse. He executes a helpless foe seemingly just out of spite.
And so many stronk female characters who abuse their power to torture some dude who acted sexist.

I don't expect fictional heroes to act like saints, but I do expect them to have some kind of restraint.

In fairness neither in the book nor move does Aragorn open up with an offer of parlay but to 'Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be done upon him". This does not sound like the words of parlay but of a King preparing to pass sentence on a criminal. 

'Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?' he asked. 'Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!' he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. 'It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!'

Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. 'I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!' he cried.

'Where such laws hold,' said Gandalf, 'it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.'
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 11:35:50 PM by Ratman_tf »
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Visitor Q

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2426 on: November 24, 2022, 04:33:12 AM »
I don’t watch the vampire show because I don’t subscribe to AMC+, but that sounds to me like good old fashioned “teenager gets superpowers and murders their high school bullies” type of plot. It’s just as badly motivated. Just because someone is mean to you doesn’t mean you have any right to murder them. That’s just pettiness.

If it was framed as bad for the protagonist to become a slasher villain, then that’s one thing. This sounds like it’s framed as a good thing, which is not a healthy message to promote. “If you don’t like the way someone treats you, then you should kill them” is a terrible message.





According to the Critical Drinker, a similar thing happens in Wakanda Forever.  Not to spoil it, but a "hero" escapes by killing a mass of cops (via thrown object and explosion) who are just trying to stop them from leaving.  Something that should result in a prison sentence, but in this case goes totally without remark for the rest of the movie...

The Critical Drinker's After Hours review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPRUAqraFFY

The morality of some "heroes" is something I've found disgusting.
Like, in the extended version of LOTR, Aragorn cuts the head off the Mouth of Sauron, when in the scene in the book, it was clearly stated to be a parley that both sides honored, and Aragorn didn't just fly into a rage an behead someone over smacktalk.
Optimus Prime in the Bay films gets worse and worse. He executes a helpless foe seemingly just out of spite.
And so many stronk female characters who abuse their power to torture some dude who acted sexist.

I don't expect fictional heroes to act like saints, but I do expect them to have some kind of restraint.

In fairness neither in the book nor move does Aragorn open up with an offer of parlay but to 'Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be done upon him". This does not sound like the words of parlay but of a King preparing to pass sentence on a criminal. 

'Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?' he asked. 'Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!' he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. 'It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!'

Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. 'I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!' he cried.

'Where such laws hold,' said Gandalf, 'it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.'

Yes. That was what I said. Aragorn doesn't open with an offer to parlay. In the book Gandalf effectively agrees to treat, in the films he doesn't. And is very explicit about it in fact. In the film Gandalf says "we are not here to treat with Sauron".

The Mouth should have left. Instead he stayed around to taunt Aragorn and the rest who had already said he had come in the role of judge.

My point is it's not a good example of Hollywood diminishing the morality of characters in movies because Jackson adapts the set up and lines in the scene to justify Aragorns execution.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 04:52:08 AM by Visitor Q »

Ratman_tf

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2427 on: November 24, 2022, 06:04:53 AM »
I don’t watch the vampire show because I don’t subscribe to AMC+, but that sounds to me like good old fashioned “teenager gets superpowers and murders their high school bullies” type of plot. It’s just as badly motivated. Just because someone is mean to you doesn’t mean you have any right to murder them. That’s just pettiness.

If it was framed as bad for the protagonist to become a slasher villain, then that’s one thing. This sounds like it’s framed as a good thing, which is not a healthy message to promote. “If you don’t like the way someone treats you, then you should kill them” is a terrible message.





According to the Critical Drinker, a similar thing happens in Wakanda Forever.  Not to spoil it, but a "hero" escapes by killing a mass of cops (via thrown object and explosion) who are just trying to stop them from leaving.  Something that should result in a prison sentence, but in this case goes totally without remark for the rest of the movie...

The Critical Drinker's After Hours review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPRUAqraFFY

The morality of some "heroes" is something I've found disgusting.
Like, in the extended version of LOTR, Aragorn cuts the head off the Mouth of Sauron, when in the scene in the book, it was clearly stated to be a parley that both sides honored, and Aragorn didn't just fly into a rage an behead someone over smacktalk.
Optimus Prime in the Bay films gets worse and worse. He executes a helpless foe seemingly just out of spite.
And so many stronk female characters who abuse their power to torture some dude who acted sexist.

I don't expect fictional heroes to act like saints, but I do expect them to have some kind of restraint.

In fairness neither in the book nor move does Aragorn open up with an offer of parlay but to 'Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be done upon him". This does not sound like the words of parlay but of a King preparing to pass sentence on a criminal. 

'Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?' he asked. 'Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!' he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. 'It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!'

Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. 'I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!' he cried.

'Where such laws hold,' said Gandalf, 'it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.'

Yes. That was what I said. Aragorn doesn't open with an offer to parlay. In the book Gandalf effectively agrees to treat, in the films he doesn't. And is very explicit about it in fact. In the film Gandalf says "we are not here to treat with Sauron".

Yes. It's a terrible adaptation choice. One important part of that scene is to show that Aragorn is in control and can't be easily goaded by a powerful servant of Sauron.

Quote
The Mouth should have left. Instead he stayed around to taunt Aragorn and the rest who had already said he had come in the role of judge.

My point is it's not a good example of Hollywood diminishing the morality of characters in movies because Jackson adapts the set up and lines in the scene to justify Aragorns execution.

The only good thing about that scene was the choice to cut it. Though probably for time and not for the reason I mentioned. As is, it's an excuse for Aragorn to hack off somebody's head, and the scene is twisted to justify it.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Visitor Q

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Re: RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)
« Reply #2428 on: November 24, 2022, 09:00:28 AM »
I don’t watch the vampire show because I don’t subscribe to AMC+, but that sounds to me like good old fashioned “teenager gets superpowers and murders their high school bullies” type of plot. It’s just as badly motivated. Just because someone is mean to you doesn’t mean you have any right to murder them. That’s just pettiness.

If it was framed as bad for the protagonist to become a slasher villain, then that’s one thing. This sounds like it’s framed as a good thing, which is not a healthy message to promote. “If you don’t like the way someone treats you, then you should kill them” is a terrible message.





According to the Critical Drinker, a similar thing happens in Wakanda Forever.  Not to spoil it, but a "hero" escapes by killing a mass of cops (via thrown object and explosion) who are just trying to stop them from leaving.  Something that should result in a prison sentence, but in this case goes totally without remark for the rest of the movie...

The Critical Drinker's After Hours review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPRUAqraFFY

The morality of some "heroes" is something I've found disgusting.
Like, in the extended version of LOTR, Aragorn cuts the head off the Mouth of Sauron, when in the scene in the book, it was clearly stated to be a parley that both sides honored, and Aragorn didn't just fly into a rage an behead someone over smacktalk.
Optimus Prime in the Bay films gets worse and worse. He executes a helpless foe seemingly just out of spite.
And so many stronk female characters who abuse their power to torture some dude who acted sexist.

I don't expect fictional heroes to act like saints, but I do expect them to have some kind of restraint.

In fairness neither in the book nor move does Aragorn open up with an offer of parlay but to 'Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth! Justice shall be done upon him". This does not sound like the words of parlay but of a King preparing to pass sentence on a criminal. 

'Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?' he asked. 'Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!' he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. 'It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!'

Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. 'I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!' he cried.

'Where such laws hold,' said Gandalf, 'it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.'

Yes. That was what I said. Aragorn doesn't open with an offer to parlay. In the book Gandalf effectively agrees to treat, in the films he doesn't. And is very explicit about it in fact. In the film Gandalf says "we are not here to treat with Sauron".

Yes. It's a terrible adaptation choice. One important part of that scene is to show that Aragorn is in control and can't be easily goaded by a powerful servant of Sauron.

Quote
The Mouth should have left. Instead he stayed around to taunt Aragorn and the rest who had already said he had come in the role of judge.

My point is it's not a good example of Hollywood diminishing the morality of characters in movies because Jackson adapts the set up and lines in the scene to justify Aragorns execution.

The only good thing about that scene was the choice to cut it. Though probably for time and not for the reason I mentioned. As is, it's an excuse for Aragorn to hack off somebody's head, and the scene is twisted to justify it.

From memory I think in the commentary someone does mention that Aragorn beheading the guy doesn't come across as justified as during the writing and filming process and that was a reason to cut it.

At the time they were also nervous that throughout the entire series there weren't really any scenes from Saurons point of view or giving him a voice which would be an unusual choice in most other movies.  So they filmed the scene but it didn't really work in the pacing of the theatrical release

Personally I don't think the scene is terrible from the point of view that it paints Argorn as a terrible person because it doesn't particularly, especially on rewatch. I think the main issue is simply narratively it paints the Mouth of Sauron as a bit dumb that he thinks he would survive that encounter considering they explciitly aren't parlaying. On the other hand thematically that speaks to Saurons arrogance which is ultimately why he fails.