RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)

[wmarshal]

What do I do?  Well I intend to post one last message as Olivier Legrand on RPGnet once the ban has been lifted, using some bits from my previous post here but with some extra comments and statements. Burning bridges and all that...

Thanks for your support and understanding.

There are different considerations to be made about speaking out on principle and so forth but probably worth considering that your post will probably drop off by the wayside whereas raising it as an issue when your bam runs out will likely just get you permabanned (not an issue) and then subsequently painted as some kind of facist which may impact subsequent sales of your game which would be unfair.  I'd just let them be, and sit in their echo chamber and get on with your life.

Sheit. I expect he'll be pre-banned for Offsite Behavior after this thread.

I kind of doubt any of the mods/admins look at this thread. Maybe earlier, but now I think they'd honestly be afraid of getting contaminated by badthink.

[Stephen Tannhauser]

I don't think I'll relaunch the stupid polemics. The last thing I want is to get dragged into an endless, pointless fight where I'll always be at a disadvantage.

I would agree with this choice as well, at least for now. There's no point in picking a fight before you absolutely feel you have to, and it's irrelevant to the quality of the game.

The best answer to people wanting to give you a hard time about the name is either to simply flat-out ignore it or to say politely, "Thank you, I'll take that under advisement," and then do what you were going to do anyway.

[Visitor Q]

What do I do?  Well I intend to post one last message as Olivier Legrand on RPGnet once the ban has been lifted, using some bits from my previous post here but with some extra comments and statements. Burning bridges and all that...

Thanks for your support and understanding.

There are different considerations to be made about speaking out on principle and so forth but probably worth considering that your post will probably drop off by the wayside whereas raising it as an issue when your bam runs out will likely just get you permabanned (not an issue) and then subsequently painted as some kind of facist which may impact subsequent sales of your game which would be unfair.  I'd just let them be, and sit in their echo chamber and get on with your life.

Sheit. I expect he'll be pre-banned for Offsite Behavior after this thread.

Big Brother is watching indeed.

[Reckall]

What do I do?  Well I intend to post one last message as Olivier Legrand on RPGnet once the ban has been lifted, using some bits from my previous post here but with some extra comments and statements. Burning bridges and all that...

Thanks for your support and understanding.

There are different considerations to be made about speaking out on principle and so forth but probably worth considering that your post will probably drop off by the wayside whereas raising it as an issue when your bam runs out will likely just get you permabanned (not an issue) and then subsequently painted as some kind of facist which may impact subsequent sales of your game which would be unfair.  I'd just let them be, and sit in their echo chamber and get on with your life.

Sheit. I expect he'll be pre-banned for Offsite Behavior after this thread.

Big Brother is watching indeed.

I registered there but I never posted, because, no matter what I'll post ("I do like Tom & Jerry. What system is the best to play something similar to those cartoons?") I'll be banned on the grounds of "This is your first post here AND..."

[jhkim]

I'm partly doing this because John Kim, someone from whom I have the deepest respect, has posted on this thread and I wouldn't want him to have any misconception about my game.

As some of you might know, I'm French. And I (naively ?) thought that "Crusader", in English, predominantly had the following meaning (the "n1°" one):
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/crusader?q=crusader

I could provide other links to other dictionaries but I'm sure you get my point. I had also come to associate the word with the superheroic genre because of various references (Batman described as the "caped crusader", the Crusaders superteam in that old V&V classic scenario etc. - and BTW I notice that "caped crusader" is still being used and widely understood in a non-controversial way

Hi, Minotaurians/Olivier. Thanks for the note. I picked up a copy of your game. It looks interesting, though I don't think I'll be using it. I'm a little surprised at the percentile dice, given that the core mechanic is mathematically equivalent to d20 + stat vs opposing stat + 10. Also the random powers with point-buy attributes, though there are plenty of choices within the random powers.

As far as the title "crusader"... I think you're welcome to debate it, and don't think you should be banned for your views. However, in modern times, crusade and crusader are often used with a negative connotation, by both the left and the right politically. When I search on Fox News, I find "crusade" used in phrases like "the left's censorship crusade" (ref) or the "planned, purposeful and premeditated crusade carried out by the Biden administration" (ref) and "social justice crusade" - all with negative connotations. Crusade can imply going to war over a zealously held and/or irrational belief.

In published comics, the Marvel character named "Crusader" is Arthur Blackwell, who channeled his medieval ancestor who fought in the Crusades, and his first action was to try to kill Thor for blasphemy. "Caped crusader" was coined for Batman, I think for the campy 1960s TV show, but there the word choice was for alliteration, while "crusader" has a different connotation. "Villains & Vigilantes" also makes use of alliteration (and similarity to D&D). However, just calling a game "Vigilantes" wouldn't have the same connotation as V&V. Similarly, the Hero System magazine "Adventurers Club" also had a regular column called "Crooks & Crusaders" which relies on alliteration, but that isn't the same as using "Crusaders" by itself.

Of course, I'm fully aware of the word's etymology but in my mind there was no problem since context was everything. As for myself (if you really want to know I'm a hardcore atheist), I consider the Crusades to be a horrendous historical episode (one among many others) SO PLEASE don't make my game (which is about 1980s superheroes...) into some kind of unwilling flag-bearer for an ideology it has nothing to do with (and that I personally consider opposite to my personal values). This would only double the pain caused by the RPGnet situation: senselessly attacked on RPGnet and then wrongfully 'championed' on the RPGsite, as just another episode of the sites war...

Fair enough. I'll see about starting a superhero game thread in the RPG section including Crusaders, to put focus on the game rather than the title.

[SHARK]

I don't follow RPGnet at all, so I don't have any comment about them.

Speaking on the use of "crusader" in general, I feel like the disconnect among people I know is using it as generic "do-gooder" -- when the equivalent term "jihadist" has the opposite connotation. I'm a Christian, but I don't see the Crusades as a positive example of Christianity, like witch burnings or sales of indulgences. Launching holy wars to conquer other peoples certainly isn't unique to Christianity, but that doesn't mean "crusader" should be used as a generic label for "good guy".

Even among my more left-wing gamer friends, I can't picture them having a superhero group called the "Jihadists". They might avoid such a name for villains, but they wouldn't use the term as generic good guys.

Yeah, how dare the Europeans fight to liberate themselves from the islamists! The Crusades were almost all wars of retaliation and liberation from over 400 years of islamic oppression.

fuck your milketoast "christianity" always ready to make excuses for the worst types and to compare Christianity with Islam.

After the islamists did their Jihad and conquered Europe and demanded the sons and daughters for slaves, one to make eunuchs and the others for sexual slaves mind you, Europe made war against them.

Why is it that you leftoids always are (or feign to be) so ignorant of history?

Greetings!

Excellent, GeekyBugle!

Yes, the Liberals are typically pathetically ignorant. They have been indoctrinated, and brainwashed. There is a laundry list of positions they have been spoon-fed on--Western Civilization is bad; America is evil and racist; Corporations are greedy and evil, and Capitalism has many problems that mean it should be replaced--or supervised much more and harder by a over-arching federal government; Christianity is anti-science, and filled with hatred, bigotry, misogyny, and intolerance; Patriarchy is evil, and has oppressed women.

As a corollary to the aforementioned, Feminism is great; Socialism and Communism are misunderstood and haven't really been tried right; Paganism is mysterious and wonderful; as a secondary, almost any religion is mysterious and profound, and should be respected--except for Christianity. Of course, the Liberals get dripping wet over other religions like Judaism and especially Islam. They then have proceeded to embrace a fabricated, heretical Frankenstein-like construct that is the Liberal "Christian" churches. These are all deluded, deceived people, swallowing lies, bullshit, and false doctrine left and right. The Liberal "Christians" are Barney Rainbow cultists. They want a happy, hippy-like, all-loving, corrupt fucking church that approves of every kind of debauchery and sin that they love to embrace. Meanwhile, there is "No judgement" in their fake, heretical churches. Che Gueverra, Karl Marx, Simone Bolivar, Foucult, Derida, all of the depraved French "philosophers", virtually any Feminist author, and any black, brown, or other minority scholar, author, "artist", "researcher" and gaggles of other pseudo-scholars, intellectuals, and grifters, all are hailed as deep authorities and welcomed as celebrities with having profound insights into history, religion, politics, society, SEX, SEX, SEX!, and anything else they come up with. Amazing how corrupting sex and sexual relationships is to Liberals. They frequently insert it into whatever curriculum as a salient feature, and hammer away at corrupting and brainwashing students into embracing the Liberal views on sex and sexuality.

That is what Liberals do.

Liberals also are corrupt and don't know a fucking thing about real history. It is all been specially baked weed brownies for them. Of course they swallow down the narrative that the Crusades were a greedy, evil atrocity, promoted by an evil, hate-filled Christian Church, all prosecuted against sweet, innocent Muslims!

Fucking morons need to take the Muslim salami out of their mouths and get some real education. The Crusades saved Europe from Muslim invasion and domination, and Christians especially, should be proud of what their ancestors did to defend the faith! And, incidentally, everything else along with it from being crushed by the Muslims.

Professor Thomas F. Madden, a prominent medieval scholar atSaint Louis University, besides writing many other books on medieval and classical topics, wrote "The Crusades Controversy--Setting the Record Straight". In his excellent book, he discusses precisely how the Muslims had been raiding Europe, raping, enslaving, and seeking to invade and subjugate Europe for the previous 400 years--and that the Crusades were a defensive program, a strong counter-attack by the Christian leadership of the day to save Christianity and Europe from the Muslim tide. He destroys the pet Liberal arguments that "Christianity is bad, the Crusades were evil, and the Muslims were innocent." All fucking destroyed, my friend.

Stay strong, Hermano!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[David Johansen]

SEX, SEX, SEX!

FINALLY! A religionwith something for everyone.

[GeekyBugle]

I don't follow RPGnet at all, so I don't have any comment about them.

Speaking on the use of "crusader" in general, I feel like the disconnect among people I know is using it as generic "do-gooder" -- when the equivalent term "jihadist" has the opposite connotation. I'm a Christian, but I don't see the Crusades as a positive example of Christianity, like witch burnings or sales of indulgences. Launching holy wars to conquer other peoples certainly isn't unique to Christianity, but that doesn't mean "crusader" should be used as a generic label for "good guy".

Even among my more left-wing gamer friends, I can't picture them having a superhero group called the "Jihadists". They might avoid such a name for villains, but they wouldn't use the term as generic good guys.

Yeah, how dare the Europeans fight to liberate themselves from the islamists! The Crusades were almost all wars of retaliation and liberation from over 400 years of islamic oppression.

fuck your milketoast "christianity" always ready to make excuses for the worst types and to compare Christianity with Islam.

After the islamists did their Jihad and conquered Europe and demanded the sons and daughters for slaves, one to make eunuchs and the others for sexual slaves mind you, Europe made war against them.

Why is it that you leftoids always are (or feign to be) so ignorant of history?

Greetings!

Excellent, GeekyBugle!

Yes, the Liberals are typically pathetically ignorant. They have been indoctrinated, and brainwashed. There is a laundry list of positions they have been spoon-fed on--Western Civilization is bad; America is evil and racist; Corporations are greedy and evil, and Capitalism has many problems that mean it should be replaced--or supervised much more and harder by a over-arching federal government; Christianity is anti-science, and filled with hatred, bigotry, misogyny, and intolerance; Patriarchy is evil, and has oppressed women.

As a corollary to the aforementioned, Feminism is great; Socialism and Communism are misunderstood and haven't really been tried right; Paganism is mysterious and wonderful; as a secondary, almost any religion is mysterious and profound, and should be respected--except for Christianity. Of course, the Liberals get dripping wet over other religions like Judaism and especially Islam. They then have proceeded to embrace a fabricated, heretical Frankenstein-like construct that is the Liberal "Christian" churches. These are all deluded, deceived people, swallowing lies, bullshit, and false doctrine left and right. The Liberal "Christians" are Barney Rainbow cultists. They want a happy, hippy-like, all-loving, corrupt fucking church that approves of every kind of debauchery and sin that they love to embrace. Meanwhile, there is "No judgement" in their fake, heretical churches. Che Gueverra, Karl Marx, Simone Bolivar, Foucult, Derida, all of the depraved French "philosophers", virtually any Feminist author, and any black, brown, or other minority scholar, author, "artist", "researcher" and gaggles of other pseudo-scholars, intellectuals, and grifters, all are hailed as deep authorities and welcomed as celebrities with having profound insights into history, religion, politics, society, SEX, SEX, SEX!, and anything else they come up with. Amazing how corrupting sex and sexual relationships is to Liberals. They frequently insert it into whatever curriculum as a salient feature, and hammer away at corrupting and brainwashing students into embracing the Liberal views on sex and sexuality.

That is what Liberals do.

Liberals also are corrupt and don't know a fucking thing about real history. It is all been specially baked weed brownies for them. Of course they swallow down the narrative that the Crusades were a greedy, evil atrocity, promoted by an evil, hate-filled Christian Church, all prosecuted against sweet, innocent Muslims!

Fucking morons need to take the Muslim salami out of their mouths and get some real education. The Crusades saved Europe from Muslim invasion and domination, and Christians especially, should be proud of what their ancestors did to defend the faith! And, incidentally, everything else along with it from being crushed by the Muslims.

Professor Thomas F. Madden, a prominent medieval scholar atSaint Louis University, besides writing many other books on medieval and classical topics, wrote "The Crusades Controversy--Setting the Record Straight". In his excellent book, he discusses precisely how the Muslims had been raiding Europe, raping, enslaving, and seeking to invade and subjugate Europe for the previous 400 years--and that the Crusades were a defensive program, a strong counter-attack by the Christian leadership of the day to save Christianity and Europe from the Muslim tide. He destroys the pet Liberal arguments that "Christianity is bad, the Crusades were evil, and the Muslims were innocent." All fucking destroyed, my friend.

Stay strong, Hermano!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings brother!

You know what's funny Shark?

Even back when I was an atheist I knew enough history to know the Crusades were wars of liberation/retaliation, because I knew that Spain had been under muslim oppression for a long ass time.

I also knew that the muslims demanded the sons for eunuchs and the daughters for sex slaves along with money.

You wanna know where my and my sons curly hair comes from? We descend from Abdallah Muhammad bin Ali, or Muhammad XII, the last moorish king of Grenade.

Spain was under muslim rule for approx 800 years, from 711 to 1492.

It's very easy to minimize the terror they imparted when you know jack shit about it, like JhKim.

[Trond]

To be fair, I think Crusaders is a pretty decent name for a game based on 1980s aesthetics. I don't think anybody else would have batted an eye or protested the title back then, or if someone did they would not be taken seriously.

Also, Arachne has always been a loser, no need to take her (him?) seriously.

[jhkim]

Here's my low-crunch superhero systems thread in the RPG forum:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/low-crunch-superhero-systems/

[Visitor Q]

I don't think I'll relaunch the stupid polemics. The last thing I want is to get dragged into an endless, pointless fight where I'll always be at a disadvantage.

I would agree with this choice as well, at least for now. There's no point in picking a fight before you absolutely feel you have to, and it's irrelevant to the quality of the game.

The best answer to people wanting to give you a hard time about the name is either to simply flat-out ignore it or to say politely, "Thank you, I'll take that under advisement," and then do what you were going to do anyway.

This is the best advice except only ignore it.

This is pretty funny. A new thread has been started about the game, wanting to talk about it despite having banned the author from uhm...talking about their game.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/take-two-crusaders-supers-rpg.899494/

[Eirikrautha]

Hello everyone.

I'm Olivier Legrand (author of CRUSADERS) and, while I have no intention of actively joining this discussion, I would like to clarify a few things - not regarding my completely groundless ban from RPGnet (which has left me completely dejected and is a fine example of self-righteous hypocrisy, especially considering the fact that the "mod posting as user" who gratuitously attacked me got scott-free - and BTW the photo from the Chinese Cultural Revolution is indeed quite a fitting reference...) but about my choice of title for the game.

I'm partly doing this because John Kim, someone from whom I have the deepest respect, has posted on this thread and I wouldn't want him to have any misconception about my game.

As some of you might know, I'm French. And I (naively ?) thought that "Crusader", in English, predominantly had the following meaning (the "n1°" one):
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/crusader?q=crusader

I could provide other links to other dictionaries but I'm sure you get my point. I had also come to associate the word with the superheroic genre because of various references (Batman described as the "caped crusader", the Crusaders superteam in that old V&V classic scenario etc. - and BTW I notice that "caped crusader" is still being used and widely understood in a non-controversial way: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14681596/). I was also thinking of phrases like "human rights crusader" etc.

Of course, I'm fully aware of the word's etymology but in my mind there was no problem since context was everything. As for myself (if you really want to know I'm a hardcore atheist), I consider the Crusades to be a horrendous historical episode (one among many others) SO PLEASE don't make my game (which is about 1980s superheroes...) into some kind of unwilling flag-bearer for an ideology it has nothing to do with (and that I personally consider opposite to my personal values). This would only double the pain caused by the RPGnet situation: senselessly attacked on RPGnet and then wrongfully 'championed' on the RPGsite, as just another episode of the sites war...

Please have mercy on me. Please don't drag my game into this.

The irony of this is that, had I written the game in French, I would never have called it "Croisé" (the French word for "crusader") because in French its only meaning is religious / historical - I would have scratched my head to find another title, probably something with "héros" in it.

To be completely honest, I thought that, in English, the word 'Crusader' was now completely divorced from its more specific, historical original meaning (again, context...) - just like, say, "Avengers" does not necessarily express some kind of enthusiasm for rough justice or the "Vigilantes" in V&V does not constitute an endorsement of real-world vigilantism or "Superman" is not a nod to the Nazis übermenschen (as the French philosopher Sartre wrongfully believed back in the 50s).

I won't change the title of the game (why should I?) but the last thing I want is for it to become the symbol of something that it is not and was never intended to be. If you really want to know what CRUSADERS is all about, read it.

Sorry for the lengthy post - and believe me the last thing I want is to alienate any more people over pointless / baseless polemics.

Well, hopefully you'll learn your lesson, especially since jhkim has already thrown you under the bus upthread.  SJWs always care more about their status in the group more than anything else, so he needs to attack your use of the term "crusader" even on this website, lest the crazy brigade see it here and carry it over elsewhere.  In the modern world of woke, you are either the attacker or the target; there are no neutrals (and the woke will tell you this directly).  Jhkim wants to avoid the crosshairs, so he'll chide you for your verbiage even when he knows you didn't mean anything by it.

See, you need to have the courage of your convictions.  You need to be able to say, "That's not what I meant, and you're a disingenuous twat for taking it that way.  It shows that you are the warped one!"  Because what has your mealy-mouthed rationalizations gotten you?  Not forgiveness.  Not understanding.  Just discarded, so that everyone else can make sure their on the "right" side of this.  You don't defend; you push right through and keep doing what you want.  The worst thing you can do is surrender (a tough lesson for a Frenchman, but, hey, everyone can learn)...

[HappyDaze]

I don't think I'll relaunch the stupid polemics. The last thing I want is to get dragged into an endless, pointless fight where I'll always be at a disadvantage.

I would agree with this choice as well, at least for now. There's no point in picking a fight before you absolutely feel you have to, and it's irrelevant to the quality of the game.

The best answer to people wanting to give you a hard time about the name is either to simply flat-out ignore it or to say politely, "Thank you, I'll take that under advisement," and then do what you were going to do anyway.

This is the best advice except only ignore it.

This is pretty funny. A new thread has been started about the game, wanting to talk about it despite having banned the author from uhm...talking about their game.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/take-two-crusaders-supers-rpg.899494/

At least most of the posters are sticking to discussing the mechanics of the game, or at least their opinions on them, and they don't have too much to say in favor of the mechanics.

[oggsmash]

Hello everyone.

I'm Olivier Legrand (author of CRUSADERS) and, while I have no intention of actively joining this discussion, I would like to clarify a few things - not regarding my completely groundless ban from RPGnet (which has left me completely dejected and is a fine example of self-righteous hypocrisy, especially considering the fact that the "mod posting as user" who gratuitously attacked me got scott-free - and BTW the photo from the Chinese Cultural Revolution is indeed quite a fitting reference...) but about my choice of title for the game.

I'm partly doing this because John Kim, someone from whom I have the deepest respect, has posted on this thread and I wouldn't want him to have any misconception about my game.

As some of you might know, I'm French. And I (naively ?) thought that "Crusader", in English, predominantly had the following meaning (the "n1°" one):
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/crusader?q=crusader

I could provide other links to other dictionaries but I'm sure you get my point. I had also come to associate the word with the superheroic genre because of various references (Batman described as the "caped crusader", the Crusaders superteam in that old V&V classic scenario etc. - and BTW I notice that "caped crusader" is still being used and widely understood in a non-controversial way: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14681596/). I was also thinking of phrases like "human rights crusader" etc.

Of course, I'm fully aware of the word's etymology but in my mind there was no problem since context was everything. As for myself (if you really want to know I'm a hardcore atheist), I consider the Crusades to be a horrendous historical episode (one among many others) SO PLEASE don't make my game (which is about 1980s superheroes...) into some kind of unwilling flag-bearer for an ideology it has nothing to do with (and that I personally consider opposite to my personal values). This would only double the pain caused by the RPGnet situation: senselessly attacked on RPGnet and then wrongfully 'championed' on the RPGsite, as just another episode of the sites war...

Please have mercy on me. Please don't drag my game into this.

The irony of this is that, had I written the game in French, I would never have called it "Croisé" (the French word for "crusader") because in French its only meaning is religious / historical - I would have scratched my head to find another title, probably something with "héros" in it.

To be completely honest, I thought that, in English, the word 'Crusader' was now completely divorced from its more specific, historical original meaning (again, context...) - just like, say, "Avengers" does not necessarily express some kind of enthusiasm for rough justice or the "Vigilantes" in V&V does not constitute an endorsement of real-world vigilantism or "Superman" is not a nod to the Nazis übermenschen (as the French philosopher Sartre wrongfully believed back in the 50s).

I won't change the title of the game (why should I?) but the last thing I want is for it to become the symbol of something that it is not and was never intended to be. If you really want to know what CRUSADERS is all about, read it.

Sorry for the lengthy post - and believe me the last thing I want is to alienate any more people over pointless / baseless polemics.

Well, hopefully you'll learn your lesson, especially since jhkim has already thrown you under the bus upthread.  SJWs always care more about their status in the group more than anything else, so he needs to attack your use of the term "crusader" even on this website, lest the crazy brigade see it here and carry it over elsewhere.  In the modern world of woke, you are either the attacker or the target; there are no neutrals (and the woke will tell you this directly).  Jhkim wants to avoid the crosshairs, so he'll chide you for your verbiage even when he knows you didn't mean anything by it.

See, you need to have the courage of your convictions.  You need to be able to say, "That's not what I meant, and you're a disingenuous twat for taking it that way.  It shows that you are the warped one!"  Because what has your mealy-mouthed rationalizations gotten you?  Not forgiveness.  Not understanding.  Just discarded, so that everyone else can make sure their on the "right" side of this.  You don't defend; you push right through and keep doing what you want.  The worst thing you can do is surrender (a tough lesson for a Frenchman, but, hey, everyone can learn)...

  I think that is too much of a response...I think just asking the person if they are fucking stupid and then disregarding them completely is better.  The time for fuckwads honoring themselves around this idiot shit is drawing to an end.   Policing speech, castrating kids, and pushing a "morality" that has about zero morality in it will reach a breaking point.

[Minotaurians]

See, you need to have the courage of your convictions.  You need to be able to say, "That's not what I meant, and you're a disingenuous twat for taking it that way.  It shows that you are the warped one!" 

Well that's precisely what I did before I was banned.

Because what has your mealy-mouthed rationalizations gotten you?  Not forgiveness.  Not understanding.  Just discarded, so that everyone else can make sure their on the "right" side of this.  You don't defend; you push right through and keep doing what you want.  The worst thing you can do is surrender (a tough lesson for a Frenchman, but, hey, everyone can learn)...

For the record, I fail to see how I "surrendered" to anything.

Plus: no need to move on to personal insults. The slur about my nationality is especially pathetic  - and, incidentally, shows how ignorant you are about history but I won't bother trying to "rationalize" anything with you - I'll leave you with your own crass stupidity, pauvre imbécile.

Thanks to all those of you who showed support. I'm off.