RPG.net user points out irony of mods "not wanting to ban people", gets banned

[Shasarak]

He is super weird about women. That "never dines alone with a woman" (other than his wife) thing. He wanted to redefine rape. Anti-abortion, etc.

That has to be the best "worst" thing to hate about someone since the old: my worst trait is that I work too hard.

[Mercurius]

See my response above. Maybe we should determine whether or not it is "murder" first, before assuming it is. Murder implies a living, sentient human being. We don't know that a first-trimester fetus passes that criteria.

So, abortions after the first trimester are murder?
Or will you say that any abortion is NOT murder, no matter how far along a pregnancy is?

I don't know, and I'm guessing neither do you. That's the point: it is debatable, unless one eschews all individual thought and adheres to dogma.

[Mercurius]

Pence has fundamentalist attitudes about women, gay people, and probably other things.

You keep alluding to these "fundamentalist attitudes" of Pence, but you have yet to give any examples. Please do so.

He is against gay marriage, for one, and connected it to "societal collapse" and saying that being against gay marriage is "God's idea."

He is super weird about women. That "never dines alone with a woman" (other than his wife) thing. He wanted to redefine rape. Anti-abortion, etc.

OK, where is the proof of all this? Do you have news clippings? Other media sources? Where are you getting that information?

There are lots of articles out there. Google is your friend.

I'll just remind you that it was YOU who made the claims, so the burden of proof is also on YOU.

If you cannot provide proof, then you are just another liberal propagandist riding the bandwagon.

I offered some quotes. But here's a few links from a quick Google search:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/19/president-pence-women-week-in-patriarchy

https://time.com/4406337/mike-pence-gay-rights-lgbt-religious-freedom/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/mike-pence-women-quotes-kamala-harris-debate-b724539.html

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/23/the-danger-of-president-pence

My guess is that it doesn't matter what links I provide, as you'll say "liberal bias!" or some such.

[Bruwulf]

I don't want this argument. But fine.

Well, it seems to me just having common sense informs us that a pregnant woman is pregnant with a human child. Just like dogs have puppies, birds have baby birds in their eggs, cows have baby cows, and so on. A 14 year old girl living on the backside of outer Mongolia, with her belly swelling, will tell you her child grows in her belly--she wouldn't say it is a "Product of conception"; "slime in a petri dish" or any other such self-delusion or sophistry.

That 14 year old child living in a yurt on the steppes of Mongolia might also tell you that eclipses are a result of the monster Raah returning to eat the sun or the moon, causing them to flee in terror. And if you showed her a picture of a blastocyst, you might have a hard time explaining to her that was a child.

Please don't try to sway me with "the simple wisdom of the ignorant". It won't work. Ignorant people are ignorant, if I may be tautological for a moment. It's not a crime, but should not be mistaken for a great, secret wisdom to be ignorant. "Out of the mouths of babes" ignores that kids say some pretty stupid things a lot more often than they manage to say something profoundly insightful.

Likewise, this is where another comment of yours struggles...

Beyond that, the God of the Bible says that murdering the innocent is a terrible crime. I'm reminded of Joshua's words, "As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord." God's will is always more important and takes absolute authority over the fucked up, selfish beliefs of mortal men. I think it is always important, especially in such circumstances involving a human life--an innocent human life--that people should stand for righteousness.

Yes. The god of the Bible Unfortunately for your argument, not everyone worships that God. Or any god, in some cases. That same Mongolian peasant you want to use the wisdom of as to when a human life begins might instead worship Tengri, or be a Buddhist.

I have no fundamental problem with laws that draw inspiration from biblical sources. As it happens, I think about half of the Ten Commandments are a pretty good place to start when drafting a body of laws... But only half, for a reason. Because if the religion itself is critical to explaining the justification for your law, it starts to be a problem. We can explain why rampant, non-state-sponsored murder is illegal in pretty much every legal system known to man, for example, even cultures that are decidedly non-Christian. So "Thou shalt not kill", or whichever translation you prefer? Makes sense. But you can't explain why blasphemy is illegal, without relying on a purely religious argument... Essentially, "because God or our gods say so".

The child growing in a woman's belly is innocent, and deserves life. The child does not deserve to be murdered for the selfish convenience of others, including the mother.

What's right is right, and good people anywhere, everywhere, need to stand against the murder of innocent children.

The stupid thing about all this is I'm basically on your side in effect, I just don't think Captain America logic is really compelling outside of comic books, and I think it's a very poor tool for trying to make law.

[Trond]

He is super weird about women. That "never dines alone with a woman" (other than his wife) thing. He wanted to redefine rape. Anti-abortion, etc.

That has to be the best "worst" thing to hate about someone since the old: my worst trait is that I work too hard.

Thread win
You got the job, whatever it is.

[Brad]

I don't want this argument. But fine.

Well, it seems to me just having common sense informs us that a pregnant woman is pregnant with a human child. Just like dogs have puppies, birds have baby birds in their eggs, cows have baby cows, and so on. A 14 year old girl living on the backside of outer Mongolia, with her belly swelling, will tell you her child grows in her belly--she wouldn't say it is a "Product of conception"; "slime in a petri dish" or any other such self-delusion or sophistry.

That 14 year old child living in a yurt on the steppes of Mongolia might also tell you that eclipses are a result of the monster Raah returning to eat the sun or the moon, causing them to flee in terror. And if you showed her a picture of a blastocyst, you might have a hard time explaining to her that was a child.

Please don't try to sway me with "the simple wisdom of the ignorant". It won't work. Ignorant people are ignorant, if I may be tautological for a moment. It's not a crime, but should not be mistaken for a great, secret wisdom to be ignorant. "Out of the mouths of babes" ignores that kids say some pretty stupid things a lot more often than they manage to say something profoundly insightful.

Likewise, this is where another comment of yours struggles...

Beyond that, the God of the Bible says that murdering the innocent is a terrible crime. I'm reminded of Joshua's words, "As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord." God's will is always more important and takes absolute authority over the fucked up, selfish beliefs of mortal men. I think it is always important, especially in such circumstances involving a human life--an innocent human life--that people should stand for righteousness.

Yes. The god of the Bible Unfortunately for your argument, not everyone worships that God. Or any god, in some cases. That same Mongolian peasant you want to use the wisdom of as to when a human life begins might instead worship Tengri, or be a Buddhist.

I have no fundamental problem with laws that draw inspiration from biblical sources. As it happens, I think about half of the Ten Commandments are a pretty good place to start when drafting a body of laws... But only half, for a reason. Because if the religion itself is critical to explaining the justification for your law, it starts to be a problem. We can explain why rampant, non-state-sponsored murder is illegal in pretty much every legal system known to man, for example, even cultures that are decidedly non-Christian. So "Thou shalt not kill", or whichever translation you prefer? Makes sense. But you can't explain why blasphemy is illegal, without relying on a purely religious argument... Essentially, "because God or our gods say so".

The child growing in a woman's belly is innocent, and deserves life. The child does not deserve to be murdered for the selfish convenience of others, including the mother.

What's right is right, and good people anywhere, everywhere, need to stand against the murder of innocent children.

The stupid thing about all this is I'm basically on your side in effect, I just don't think Captain America logic is really compelling outside of comic books, and I think it's a very poor tool for trying to make law.

It's always amusing to see people try to justify atheism in the context of common morality...

[Bruwulf]

It's always amusing to see people try to justify atheism in the context of common morality...

I'm not trying to do that.

[SHARK]

I don't want this argument. But fine.

Well, it seems to me just having common sense informs us that a pregnant woman is pregnant with a human child. Just like dogs have puppies, birds have baby birds in their eggs, cows have baby cows, and so on. A 14 year old girl living on the backside of outer Mongolia, with her belly swelling, will tell you her child grows in her belly--she wouldn't say it is a "Product of conception"; "slime in a petri dish" or any other such self-delusion or sophistry.

That 14 year old child living in a yurt on the steppes of Mongolia might also tell you that eclipses are a result of the monster Raah returning to eat the sun or the moon, causing them to flee in terror. And if you showed her a picture of a blastocyst, you might have a hard time explaining to her that was a child.

Please don't try to sway me with "the simple wisdom of the ignorant". It won't work. Ignorant people are ignorant, if I may be tautological for a moment. It's not a crime, but should not be mistaken for a great, secret wisdom to be ignorant. "Out of the mouths of babes" ignores that kids say some pretty stupid things a lot more often than they manage to say something profoundly insightful.

Likewise, this is where another comment of yours struggles...

Beyond that, the God of the Bible says that murdering the innocent is a terrible crime. I'm reminded of Joshua's words, "As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord." God's will is always more important and takes absolute authority over the fucked up, selfish beliefs of mortal men. I think it is always important, especially in such circumstances involving a human life--an innocent human life--that people should stand for righteousness.

Yes. The god of the Bible Unfortunately for your argument, not everyone worships that God. Or any god, in some cases. That same Mongolian peasant you want to use the wisdom of as to when a human life begins might instead worship Tengri, or be a Buddhist.

I have no fundamental problem with laws that draw inspiration from biblical sources. As it happens, I think about half of the Ten Commandments are a pretty good place to start when drafting a body of laws... But only half, for a reason. Because if the religion itself is critical to explaining the justification for your law, it starts to be a problem. We can explain why rampant, non-state-sponsored murder is illegal in pretty much every legal system known to man, for example, even cultures that are decidedly non-Christian. So "Thou shalt not kill", or whichever translation you prefer? Makes sense. But you can't explain why blasphemy is illegal, without relying on a purely religious argument... Essentially, "because God or our gods say so".

The child growing in a woman's belly is innocent, and deserves life. The child does not deserve to be murdered for the selfish convenience of others, including the mother.

What's right is right, and good people anywhere, everywhere, need to stand against the murder of innocent children.

The stupid thing about all this is I'm basically on your side in effect, I just don't think Captain America logic is really compelling outside of comic books, and I think it's a very poor tool for trying to make law.

Greetings!

Good to hear that you are on my side of the moral argument, Bruwulf!

I learned many years ago--much to my chagrin--that attempting to argue essential moral logic and reasoning with people is largely pointless and a waste of time. Simple, emotional arguments are what win, and beyond that, most people just don't give a fuck about more comprehensive, articulated arguments.

So, yeah, when it comes to basic morality, I believe abortion is wrong, and immoral. I believe it is common sense to understand it is human life, and an innocent life of a child, that doesn't deserve to be murdered for the convenience of the mother--or anyone else. The gross profiteering involved in the abortion industry is a horrific shame, and something I hope will change. To me, it is murder. A horrible, monstrous action taken most of the time because people are immoral, irresponsible, lazy and selfish--and aided and abetted by others because they do not want to be inconvenienced--or be forced to assume responsibility--while others gleefully rub their hands at the thought of collecting another paycheck off the backs of stupid, immoral, selfish people. I oppose abortion and always encourage people to take responsibility for their own behavior, their own choices--and do the right thing--do that which is righteous. The innocent should never suffer for another person's selfishness or shitty judgment.

And yeah, I happen to also like Captain America logic. I'm an old school dinosaur, raised by parents from World War II. They largely believed in Captain America logic--and honestly, I'm not impressed with the smug, condescending, pseudo-intellectual delusions of self-styled experts and scholars of recent decades. Most of them blubber on with self-delusional, humanistic philosophy that is anti-Christian and entirely unbiblical.

I was raised by God-fearing, Christian parents. I have studied the Scriptures all my life, and I find the biblical moral framework to be an excellent guide for how we are to live in society. Of course people are going to disagree. They reject the truth of Scripture, and reject righteousness. That's ok. They can gnash their teeth, and disagree and object all they want.

I, however, will continue to oppose them. I will vote in support of Christian laws and other policies that reflect a Christian world view. The line of my fathers and forefathers go back, and all were Christians. So, I am happy to keep the faith. Before I could walk, my mother read to me from the Scriptures, and sang to me of our faith. My Christian faith is precious to me, and has always been cherished in my family. I would never foreswear my faith, no matter how many of the world clamour and screech against it.

In the end, all will answer for their deeds. I would never want the terrible sin of abortion on my conscience, and I have always counseled women and men alike to stand against it. Certainly, some may laugh at simple righteousness. There is an awesome and powerful joy in standing for righteousness, and doing that which is right. When I was a boy, my own father taught me that a man of honour does that which is right, no matter the cost to him personally. No matter what, no one can take a man's honour from him, but he can give it away, he can squander it through being unrighteous and doing that which is dishonorable. I would never violate my conscience by supporting abortion. To me, it is clearly wrong and immoral.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[HappyDaze]

Greetings!

Good to hear that you are on my side of the moral argument, Bruwulf!

I learned many years ago--much to my chagrin--that attempting to argue essential moral logic and reasoning with people is largely pointless and a waste of time. Simple, emotional arguments are what win, and beyond that, most people just don't give a fuck about more comprehensive, articulated arguments.

So, yeah, when it comes to basic morality, I believe abortion is wrong, and immoral. I believe it is common sense to understand it is human life, and an innocent life of a child, that doesn't deserve to be murdered for the convenience of the mother--or anyone else. The gross profiteering involved in the abortion industry is a horrific shame, and something I hope will change. To me, it is murder. A horrible, monstrous action taken most of the time because people are immoral, irresponsible, lazy and selfish--and aided and abetted by others because they do not want to be inconvenienced--or be forced to assume responsibility--while others gleefully rub their hands at the thought of collecting another paycheck off the backs of stupid, immoral, selfish people. I oppose abortion and always encourage people to take responsibility for their own behavior, their own choices--and do the right thing--do that which is righteous. The innocent should never suffer for another person's selfishness or shitty judgment.

And yeah, I happen to also like Captain America logic. I'm an old school dinosaur, raised by parents from World War II. They largely believed in Captain America logic--and honestly, I'm not impressed with the smug, condescending, pseudo-intellectual delusions of self-styled experts and scholars of recent decades. Most of them blubber on with self-delusional, humanistic philosophy that is anti-Christian and entirely unbiblical.

I was raised by God-fearing, Christian parents. I have studied the Scriptures all my life, and I find the biblical moral framework to be an excellent guide for how we are to live in society. Of course people are going to disagree. They reject the truth of Scripture, and reject righteousness. That's ok. They can gnash their teeth, and disagree and object all they want.

I, however, will continue to oppose them. I will vote in support of Christian laws and other policies that reflect a Christian world view. The line of my fathers and forefathers go back, and all were Christians. So, I am happy to keep the faith. Before I could walk, my mother read to me from the Scriptures, and sang to me of our faith. My Christian faith is precious to me, and has always been cherished in my family. I would never foreswear my faith, no matter how many of the world clamour and screech against it.

In the end, all will answer for their deeds. I would never want the terrible sin of abortion on my conscience, and I have always counseled women and men alike to stand against it. Certainly, some may laugh at simple righteousness. There is an awesome and powerful joy in standing for righteousness, and doing that which is right. When I was a boy, my own father taught me that a man of honour does that which is right, no matter the cost to him personally. No matter what, no one can take a man's honour from him, but he can give it away, he can squander it through being unrighteous and doing that which is dishonorable. I would never violate my conscience by supporting abortion. To me, it is clearly wrong and immoral.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's some mighty unusual spelling for someone that claims to be an American...

[Shasarak]

Yes. The god of the Bible Unfortunately for your argument, not everyone worships that God. Or any god, in some cases. That same Mongolian peasant you want to use the wisdom of as to when a human life begins might instead worship Tengri, or be a Buddhist.

I have no fundamental problem with laws that draw inspiration from biblical sources. As it happens, I think about half of the Ten Commandments are a pretty good place to start when drafting a body of laws... But only half, for a reason. Because if the religion itself is critical to explaining the justification for your law, it starts to be a problem. We can explain why rampant, non-state-sponsored murder is illegal in pretty much every legal system known to man, for example, even cultures that are decidedly non-Christian. So "Thou shalt not kill", or whichever translation you prefer? Makes sense. But you can't explain why blasphemy is illegal, without relying on a purely religious argument... Essentially, "because God or our gods say so".

You dont need to use scripture to determine why Blasphemy is bad. 

You can look at the spread of atheism through the world and the uncanny way it maps directly on to the worst mass murders in human history.

[Shasarak]

That's some mighty unusual spelling for someone that claims to be an American...

To be fair, honour is an English concept.

[Ratman_tf]

Christians can do their thing, just not enforce it on others. If you believe that abortion is murder, don't get one - but don't try to make that choice for others. And on down the line.

To make the argument,  If I believe that abortion is murder, then why should I tolerate society and government murdering people?

Because you live in a society in which there are a diversity of beliefs. I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to fight for what you believe in, but you also need to accept that others don't believe as you. If you are a national leader, you govern not only those of your religion, but of other belief systems.

We're not talking about tax policy or whether God wants us to wear pants on our heads.

If a group of people thought it was a keen idea to kill every redhead, I would be against that no matter why they thought it. If they started murdering redheads in the street, I'd like to think I'd fight them.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the anti-abortion view, except for the fact that abortions will continue to happen whether or not they are legal. Anti-abortionists are either willfully ignorant or don't care about the fact that back-alley abortions will happen, and women will die because of it.

And murder will continue to happen whether or not it's illegal. But I don't think we should legalize murder.

Because the question of whether abortion is murder is debatable, if a choice has to be made I'd leave it up to the individual.

There's an argument to be had there. But the idea that the individual should be allowed to decide whether killing someone is murder or not is not (IMO) a very solid foundation for abortion laws. For the same reason that we don't allow someone who killed their spouse in a domestic dispute decide it wasn't murder.

[Mercurius]

He is super weird about women. That "never dines alone with a woman" (other than his wife) thing. He wanted to redefine rape. Anti-abortion, etc.

That has to be the best "worst" thing to hate about someone since the old: my worst trait is that I work too hard.

A meaningless statement without context. Do you neglect your children? Your spouse? Yourself, and get sick a lot? Do you work doing something that you find uninteresting, lacking in meaning, or causes harm to others? If any of the above, maybe you do work too hard. If not, good for you - keep at it. Working hard for its own sake is meaningless without context.

[Mercurius]

Greetings!

Good to hear that you are on my side of the moral argument, Bruwulf!

I learned many years ago--much to my chagrin--that attempting to argue essential moral logic and reasoning with people is largely pointless and a waste of time. Simple, emotional arguments are what win, and beyond that, most people just don't give a fuck about more comprehensive, articulated arguments.

So, yeah, when it comes to basic morality, I believe abortion is wrong, and immoral. I believe it is common sense to understand it is human life, and an innocent life of a child, that doesn't deserve to be murdered for the convenience of the mother--or anyone else. The gross profiteering involved in the abortion industry is a horrific shame, and something I hope will change. To me, it is murder. A horrible, monstrous action taken most of the time because people are immoral, irresponsible, lazy and selfish--and aided and abetted by others because they do not want to be inconvenienced--or be forced to assume responsibility--while others gleefully rub their hands at the thought of collecting another paycheck off the backs of stupid, immoral, selfish people. I oppose abortion and always encourage people to take responsibility for their own behavior, their own choices--and do the right thing--do that which is righteous. The innocent should never suffer for another person's selfishness or shitty judgment.

And yeah, I happen to also like Captain America logic. I'm an old school dinosaur, raised by parents from World War II. They largely believed in Captain America logic--and honestly, I'm not impressed with the smug, condescending, pseudo-intellectual delusions of self-styled experts and scholars of recent decades. Most of them blubber on with self-delusional, humanistic philosophy that is anti-Christian and entirely unbiblical.

I was raised by God-fearing, Christian parents. I have studied the Scriptures all my life, and I find the biblical moral framework to be an excellent guide for how we are to live in society. Of course people are going to disagree. They reject the truth of Scripture, and reject righteousness. That's ok. They can gnash their teeth, and disagree and object all they want.

I, however, will continue to oppose them. I will vote in support of Christian laws and other policies that reflect a Christian world view. The line of my fathers and forefathers go back, and all were Christians. So, I am happy to keep the faith. Before I could walk, my mother read to me from the Scriptures, and sang to me of our faith. My Christian faith is precious to me, and has always been cherished in my family. I would never foreswear my faith, no matter how many of the world clamour and screech against it.

In the end, all will answer for their deeds. I would never want the terrible sin of abortion on my conscience, and I have always counseled women and men alike to stand against it. Certainly, some may laugh at simple righteousness. There is an awesome and powerful joy in standing for righteousness, and doing that which is right. When I was a boy, my own father taught me that a man of honour does that which is right, no matter the cost to him personally. No matter what, no one can take a man's honour from him, but he can give it away, he can squander it through being unrighteous and doing that which is dishonorable. I would never violate my conscience by supporting abortion. To me, it is clearly wrong and immoral.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It is unfortunate for you that crusader and inquisitor are no longer job options .

[Zirunel]

That's some mighty unusual spelling for someone that claims to be an American...

Yes, true. But in SHARK's favour, it is the right spelling