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Author Topic: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes  (Read 806 times)

GeekyBugle

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Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« on: May 01, 2021, 02:47:30 PM »
Inspired by this post:

Credits ARE money tho. Just imagine all our dearly beloved leaders just stoped printing money altogether and instead of several different currencies we had the earth credit. not paper, not coins but electronically stored in your account. It is still money.

I think that's the only way to really make post TOS work. Maybe there's an exchange rate built around a bunch of things that are in high demand but are not able to be replicated, or an energy based 'mega-credit' or the like. Even in a society in which you can replicate an unlimited number of blueberry muffins, you only have one original Mona Lisa, a limited number of houses/lots on a California skyline, and one Sisko restaurant.

Many Sci-Fi RPGs already do this, because there will always be scarcity, you might be able to solve it in almost everything, but you can't solve it in everything.
If we ever find ourselves in a far more equable reputation based economy, then I'll go back to being a conservative "capitalist" that thinks the current system is good enough.

Sure hardcore socialist think rep economies are just capitalism, but it's a practical step in the right direction.

A whole discusion erupted with Rhedyn devolving more and more into a puritanical fascist.

How can someone want to implement the Chinese system and not think it's fascistic?
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This Guy

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2021, 05:00:31 AM »
Idk man but it's obv a real and present danger against which extreme measures are necessary
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2021, 06:03:01 PM »
Idk man but it's obv a real and present danger against which extreme measures are necessary

That there are people actually advocating for a dystopian fantasy like social rep systems makes me agree. That is a hill I'd gladly die on.
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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2021, 07:21:59 PM »
Idk man but it's obv a real and present danger against which extreme measures are necessary

That there are people actually advocating for a dystopian fantasy like social rep systems makes me agree. That is a hill I'd gladly die on.

Yeah but who are they, how much influence do they have, and at what point do you start preemptively takin em out.

Don't get me wrong being the piece of shit I am I wouldn't survive a social rep system but at what point do you let the rubber hit the road and the rounds into the firing chamber yanno
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Zelen

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2021, 07:25:20 PM »
Right now if you're using a credit card in your day-to-day, you're already inside of a social credit reputation system. It isn't quite as explicit as China's yet but it's already there, and it's going to get a lot more noticeable & draconian.
The social credit system is basically inevitable once technology reaches a sufficiently networked & pervasive nature. Unless "we" (meaning, everyone who isn't a politician or mega-billionaire) actually demand a right to privacy, strong encryption, and data-ownership, humanity doesn't have a chance of avoiding this nightmare.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2021, 10:11:47 PM »
Right now if you're using a credit card in your day-to-day, you're already inside of a social credit reputation system. It isn't quite as explicit as China's yet but it's already there, and it's going to get a lot more noticeable & draconian.
The social credit system is basically inevitable once technology reaches a sufficiently networked & pervasive nature. Unless "we" (meaning, everyone who isn't a politician or mega-billionaire) actually demand a right to privacy, strong encryption, and data-ownership, humanity doesn't have a chance of avoiding this nightmare.
Mmm. Yes and no. Credit scores typically rely on your financial reliability, not your level of proper sociopolitical adherence.

That being said, certain banks have already gone full retard, helping comply with Operation Chokepoint for example. Prior to the current regime, there was a proposed rule that would bar banking institutions from refusing service for any reason other than legal or financial/fiduciary. As I understand it, that rule did not survive to implementation.

Pat

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2021, 11:14:37 PM »
We already have a reputation-based economy. It's called capitalism. If someone produces something you like, they'll give it to you if you give them enough green sheets of paper to indicate your support. It's completely decentralized and voluntary, because if they want more green sheets of paper than you have or are willing to give them, you don't have to give themn any. That means only the people who produce things many people really want end up with lots of green sheets paper.

jhkim

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2021, 01:55:43 AM »
We already have a reputation-based economy. It's called capitalism. If someone produces something you like, they'll give it to you if you give them enough green sheets of paper to indicate your support. It's completely decentralized and voluntary, because if they want more green sheets of paper than you have or are willing to give them, you don't have to give themn any. That means only the people who produce things many people really want end up with lots of green sheets paper.

Yeah, it's not clear what the difference of a reputation-based economy would be, if any. When I hear "reputation-based economy", my first thought is of potlatch among peoples of the American Pacific Northwest,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch

https://umistapotlatch.ca/potlatch-eng.php

I don't know much about their economic system, though. Still, I'd want to research more into it to see more of what the differences are. It's unclear how the


Back when I ran Star Trek campaigns based on the original series, I took seriously that there wasn't any more money -- but there was still private property, so I concluded that under advanced computers, standard markets weren't necessary -- and in interstellar deals, the cultural gaps were so huge that no standards could be formed. Thus, trading was done by barter. Different institutions could all form their own forms of credits - thus Star Fleet had credits, but no one was obligated to take them.


Right now if you're using a credit card in your day-to-day, you're already inside of a social credit reputation system. It isn't quite as explicit as China's yet but it's already there, and it's going to get a lot more noticeable & draconian.
The social credit system is basically inevitable once technology reaches a sufficiently networked & pervasive nature. Unless "we" (meaning, everyone who isn't a politician or mega-billionaire) actually demand a right to privacy, strong encryption, and data-ownership, humanity doesn't have a chance of avoiding this nightmare.

Mmm. Yes and no. Credit scores typically rely on your financial reliability, not your level of proper sociopolitical adherence.

That being said, certain banks have already gone full retard, helping comply with Operation Chokepoint for example. Prior to the current regime, there was a proposed rule that would bar banking institutions from refusing service for any reason other than legal or financial/fiduciary. As I understand it, that rule did not survive to implementation.

Well, but if the banks *can* refuse service, that is more of a reputation-based economy. The criticism of the "reputation-based economy" is that unpopular people starve -- but if unpopular people can be refused service at banks, grocery stores, and other institutions simply because they are unpopular, that emphasizes that there is a reputation-based economy.

moonsweeper

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2021, 02:35:02 AM »

Well, but if the banks *can* refuse service, that is more of a reputation-based economy. The criticism of the "reputation-based economy" is that unpopular people starve -- but if unpopular people can be refused service at banks, grocery stores, and other institutions simply because they are unpopular, that emphasizes that there is a reputation-based economy.

In the example that Ghostmaker cited they weren't refused service because they were 'unpopular' they were refused service based on government order, not on a reputation-based economic choice.
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VisionStorm

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2021, 10:15:21 AM »
We already have a reputation-based economy. It's called capitalism. If someone produces something you like, they'll give it to you if you give them enough green sheets of paper to indicate your support. It's completely decentralized and voluntary, because if they want more green sheets of paper than you have or are willing to give them, you don't have to give themn any. That means only the people who produce things many people really want end up with lots of green sheets paper.

Except for people who win the lottery, stock brokers, people who are born into wealth, etc.

Just because socialism is worse that doesn't mean that capitalism is suddenly this shining beacon of unbridled meritocracy where ONLY the people who produce things make money and earnings are a direct reflection of your actual productivity and contribution to society. It just means that you have avenues to make your own money. In theory. If you megacorps don't squash you down and the government and cultural institutions aren't hijacked by a bunch of snowflake weirdos.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2021, 11:38:20 AM »
We already have a reputation-based economy. It's called capitalism. If someone produces something you like, they'll give it to you if you give them enough green sheets of paper to indicate your support. It's completely decentralized and voluntary, because if they want more green sheets of paper than you have or are willing to give them, you don't have to give themn any. That means only the people who produce things many people really want end up with lots of green sheets paper.

Except for people who win the lottery, stock brokers, people who are born into wealth, etc.

Just because socialism is worse that doesn't mean that capitalism is suddenly this shining beacon of unbridled meritocracy where ONLY the people who produce things make money and earnings are a direct reflection of your actual productivity and contribution to society. It just means that you have avenues to make your own money. In theory. If you megacorps don't squash you down and the government and cultural institutions aren't hijacked by a bunch of snowflake weirdos.

Those who win the lottery are what percentage?

Inheritors... Well mostly they end up going down on the economic ladder within THREE generations.

Stock Brokers... While I agree they are mostly leeches... They ARE providing a service that someone is willing to pay for. If we think their line of work is detrimental to the sociaety or the majority of it is irrelevant.

As for the megacorps, yeah, we need to do something about it, because they are meddling in the elections of the world.

The bigger problem IMHO are the weirdos, we need to make government and corporations stop listening to them.
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Spinachcat

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2021, 04:57:36 PM »
Reputation based economies ARE dystopian hellholes. That's been one of the key elements in most dystopian fiction, aka you can be denied basic goods and services for wrongthink.

It's why cyberpunk often has two economies - the main market and the black market - and the more dystopian the setting, the more endangered the black market becomes.

As for old Star Trek, its commie factor mostly depended on who was writing which episode. I have no idea how far into retard land the new series has gone, but I won't be surprised if pushing the Federation to become a woke commiebitch utopia are the marching orders going forward.

Zelen

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2021, 06:50:10 PM »
One of the funny things about the newer Star Trek is that the writers are desperate to:

(a) Portray all of the old Trek as awful
(b) Glorify all of the woke elements of new Trek

What ends up happening is that everything in the setting seems to be increasingly portrayed as being under the guidance of this secretive, evil, authoritarian faction (Section 31, etc). The irony is that this is actually exactly how the woke people function, it's wish fulfillment for them. They just don't realize they are the bad guys in their own stories.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2021, 08:29:16 PM »
To distinguish: Everybody has a reputation and that's normal, ethical, and fine. If a restaurant serves you shit food, and the waiters fart in your face, you spread the word to others, and possibly leave a review on yelp. That's 100% fair and ethical.
However, reputation systems track that sort of review across all aspects of their lives. And add in algorithms or a set of ethics demanded by the state, and you have an invasive system that cross-references you at every aspect of your life and turns every citizen into a snitch, that are encouraged to snitch on each other.

Now that's just social credits. Reputation in the sense that it replaces all currency is just effectively centrally planned socialism. It encourages corruption and shmoozing.
It means generally some 'reputable' council decides if you deserve a restaurant or not. So by bribing them with whatever (and there will always be bribes), becomes the only way of accessing resources.
In a very real way, the Soviet Union was a status/reputation-based economy. Some 'reputable' people decided all aspects of your life, and since you couldn't put in extra effort or balance your capital in an official manner, you did bribes in an unofficial manner.

Has anybody seen the Soviet film 'Garage'? It goes very much into how such a system works. How something as basic as making a garage for a bunch of scientists becomes a nightmare with people turning on each other in the process, and how everybody really is the victim in such a system.
Maybe in the modern-day, it would be a bit different because the most popular influencers are a bunch of tools. And that's why Rhedyn brought up the requirement of squashing free speech and 'proper education' so that the influencers would be what the state needed to be.

Star Treks' economics are just hand-waved and just assume that what the fundamental change is in the average PERSON. The idea is that it's not so much that a system made people better, but better people made a better system regardless of underpinnings. When it got all anti-money that was just stupidity on the writer's parts. It's like an idea that not having toilets will make people poop less. 'We have outgrown the need for toilets so we don't have them anymore.

Because human greed is limitless, no matter the replicators and near infinite energy. Some credit systems would have to be implemented for access and special privileges.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2021, 10:38:59 PM »
Star Treks' economics are just hand-waved and just assume that what the fundamental change is in the average PERSON. The idea is that it's not so much that a system made people better, but better people made a better system regardless of underpinnings. When it got all anti-money that was just stupidity on the writer's parts. It's like an idea that not having toilets will make people poop less. 'We have outgrown the need for toilets so we don't have them anymore.

Because human greed is limitless, no matter the replicators and near infinite energy. Some credit systems would have to be implemented for access and special privileges.

God yes! I keep thinking of the scene in City on the Edge of Forever where Kirk says-

"Let me help. A hundred years or so from now, I believe, a famous novelist will write a classic using that theme. He'll recommend those three words even over I love you."

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