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Author Topic: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes  (Read 7695 times)

jhkim

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2021, 11:59:06 AM »
Historically, moving was much more difficult and dangerous than it is today. Transferring money and property was much riskier, and it was risky to move to a place without all the anonymous sources of information we have now. Further, strangers moving in with no connections were often viewed with suspicion.

The big problem both then and now is giving up all one's connections. Most people aren't willing to part with the life that they know. But if someone is willing to give up their previous life, then I think it's much easier now. There's no need to delete anything - they can just not log into those old accounts any more. Just fill in a bunch of forms to change name and transfer accounts.

As far as reputation goes - yes, it is frequently unfair. I hate both historical gossip-mongering and current social media gossip-mongering. I don't see it as a competition - they both suck. Plenty of old celebrities were ruined by scandal, or just by failing to play along with the right people. Careers have been destroyed by relentless and unfair gossip.

Let me ask again, you would need to erase all your digital footprints, that means even photos of you, you would need to get a new legal identity and the papers to go with it, without the new one being able to be traced to the old one.

You would need to do the WITSEC stuff without the government intervening.

This is a false parallel. Simply moving to a new town in past ages was not the equivalent of witness security. People could still find out about a person's past. If after moving they lied about where they were from, nosy neighbors could write to that place to check on them -- and expose the lie. If they told the truth, their past would be exposed.

But this sort of over-the-top witness security isn't necessary. In the modern day, plenty of people do disappear without government witness security help. In the U.S., we have a huge number of missing persons. Common cases are criminals dodging the law, teens running away from their parents, and adults getting away from their spouse and/or family.

They don't have to delete every record of their past lives including all photos in order to disappear. I'm sure that even witness security doesn't delete all photos of the old identity. That's fictional action movie shit. They just change their look (i.e. hair style, clothes, and facial hair or makeup). Once in a completely different setting, they're not going to be recognized. Even people with famous faces have effectively disappeared. There are celebrities who dropped out - like after failing to toe the Hollywood line in the past, and ended up in ordinary careers unrecognized.


You think that is equally difficult than moving away 100 years ago? Hell make it just before the internet, what is more difficult?

To escape a toxic town, maybe without any money and to go elsewhere to start anew or right now to try and escape from the woke mob?

Stop being disingenuous, you know the answer is right now it's more difficult.

I'm not being disingenuous, I simply disagree. As far as I can tell, it's not difficult to escape the woke mob. The problem isn't that the mob track people down who disappear. It's that targets are unwilling to drop their careers and other ties, just as people in history were unwilling to move out of the only place they have known and leave their friends and family behind.

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2021, 12:18:29 PM »
Historically, moving was much more difficult and dangerous than it is today. Transferring money and property was much riskier, and it was risky to move to a place without all the anonymous sources of information we have now. Further, strangers moving in with no connections were often viewed with suspicion.

The big problem both then and now is giving up all one's connections. Most people aren't willing to part with the life that they know. But if someone is willing to give up their previous life, then I think it's much easier now. There's no need to delete anything - they can just not log into those old accounts any more. Just fill in a bunch of forms to change name and transfer accounts.

As far as reputation goes - yes, it is frequently unfair. I hate both historical gossip-mongering and current social media gossip-mongering. I don't see it as a competition - they both suck. Plenty of old celebrities were ruined by scandal, or just by failing to play along with the right people. Careers have been destroyed by relentless and unfair gossip.

Let me ask again, you would need to erase all your digital footprints, that means even photos of you, you would need to get a new legal identity and the papers to go with it, without the new one being able to be traced to the old one.

You would need to do the WITSEC stuff without the government intervening.

This is a false parallel. Simply moving to a new town in past ages was not the equivalent of witness security. People could still find out about a person's past. If after moving they lied about where they were from, nosy neighbors could write to that place to check on them -- and expose the lie. If they told the truth, their past would be exposed.

But this sort of over-the-top witness security isn't necessary. In the modern day, plenty of people do disappear without government witness security help. In the U.S., we have a huge number of missing persons. Common cases are criminals dodging the law, teens running away from their parents, and adults getting away from their spouse and/or family.

They don't have to delete every record of their past lives including all photos in order to disappear. I'm sure that even witness security doesn't delete all photos of the old identity. That's fictional action movie shit. They just change their look (i.e. hair style, clothes, and facial hair or makeup). Once in a completely different setting, they're not going to be recognized. Even people with famous faces have effectively disappeared. There are celebrities who dropped out - like after failing to toe the Hollywood line in the past, and ended up in ordinary careers unrecognized.


You think that is equally difficult than moving away 100 years ago? Hell make it just before the internet, what is more difficult?

To escape a toxic town, maybe without any money and to go elsewhere to start anew or right now to try and escape from the woke mob?

Stop being disingenuous, you know the answer is right now it's more difficult.

I'm not being disingenuous, I simply disagree. As far as I can tell, it's not difficult to escape the woke mob. The problem isn't that the mob track people down who disappear. It's that targets are unwilling to drop their careers and other ties, just as people in history were unwilling to move out of the only place they have known and leave their friends and family behind.

Good thing I didn't said that moving to another town in the past was the equivalent of WITSEC.

Right, they don't have to delete every record of their past lives, including photos, they just have to never be photographed again or hope that their new photos never reach the mob.

And they don't need to legally change their name nor get their papers with the new name, they just need to start working low wage jobs under tha table.

Yeah, you're not being disingenuous, you're just lying.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2021, 01:33:42 PM »
Historically, moving was much more difficult and dangerous than it is today. Transferring money and property was much riskier, and it was risky to move to a place without all the anonymous sources of information we have now. Further, strangers moving in with no connections were often viewed with suspicion.

The big problem both then and now is giving up all one's connections. Most people aren't willing to part with the life that they know. But if someone is willing to give up their previous life, then I think it's much easier now. There's no need to delete anything - they can just not log into those old accounts any more. Just fill in a bunch of forms to change name and transfer accounts.

As far as reputation goes - yes, it is frequently unfair. I hate both historical gossip-mongering and current social media gossip-mongering. I don't see it as a competition - they both suck. Plenty of old celebrities were ruined by scandal, or just by failing to play along with the right people. Careers have been destroyed by relentless and unfair gossip.

Let me ask again, you would need to erase all your digital footprints, that means even photos of you, you would need to get a new legal identity and the papers to go with it, without the new one being able to be traced to the old one.

You would need to do the WITSEC stuff without the government intervening.

This is a false parallel. Simply moving to a new town in past ages was not the equivalent of witness security. People could still find out about a person's past. If after moving they lied about where they were from, nosy neighbors could write to that place to check on them -- and expose the lie. If they told the truth, their past would be exposed.

But this sort of over-the-top witness security isn't necessary. In the modern day, plenty of people do disappear without government witness security help. In the U.S., we have a huge number of missing persons. Common cases are criminals dodging the law, teens running away from their parents, and adults getting away from their spouse and/or family.

They don't have to delete every record of their past lives including all photos in order to disappear. I'm sure that even witness security doesn't delete all photos of the old identity. That's fictional action movie shit. They just change their look (i.e. hair style, clothes, and facial hair or makeup). Once in a completely different setting, they're not going to be recognized. Even people with famous faces have effectively disappeared. There are celebrities who dropped out - like after failing to toe the Hollywood line in the past, and ended up in ordinary careers unrecognized.


You think that is equally difficult than moving away 100 years ago? Hell make it just before the internet, what is more difficult?

To escape a toxic town, maybe without any money and to go elsewhere to start anew or right now to try and escape from the woke mob?

Stop being disingenuous, you know the answer is right now it's more difficult.

I'm not being disingenuous, I simply disagree. As far as I can tell, it's not difficult to escape the woke mob. The problem isn't that the mob track people down who disappear. It's that targets are unwilling to drop their careers and other ties, just as people in history were unwilling to move out of the only place they have known and leave their friends and family behind.

I've seen the opposite. Either a person has the fortitude to endure the scorn of people they once admired, liked, and/or loved, and deal with the fact that many will abandon them for being worse than Hitler, or flagelate themselves until the mob is finished sucking every last drop of self-esteem from them, leaving a husk of a person. And that's just online. I can't imagine going through something like that in real life.

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2021, 01:45:58 PM »
I've seen the opposite. Either a person has the fortitude to endure the scorn of people they once admired, liked, and/or loved, and deal with the fact that many will abandon them for being worse than Hitler, or flagelate themselves until the mob is finished sucking every last drop of self-esteem from them, leaving a husk of a person. And that's just online. I can't imagine going through something like that in real life.
Yes, to many people it's pretty terrible. There are less physical consequences, but an interesting analogy would be medieval excommunication.

jhkim

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2021, 02:15:09 PM »
I'm not being disingenuous, I simply disagree. As far as I can tell, it's not difficult to escape the woke mob. The problem isn't that the mob track people down who disappear. It's that targets are unwilling to drop their careers and other ties, just as people in history were unwilling to move out of the only place they have known and leave their friends and family behind.

I've seen the opposite. Either a person has the fortitude to endure the scorn of people they once admired, liked, and/or loved, and deal with the fact that many will abandon them for being worse than Hitler, or flagelate themselves until the mob is finished sucking every last drop of self-esteem from them, leaving a husk of a person. And that's just online. I can't imagine going through something like that in real life.

The closest real-life experience like this that I've seen is from gay and trans friends of mine -- especially those who came out in the 1980s and 1990s. Many were disowned by their families, faced scorn and derision in public, and cut off from their communities. Many had stories of getting beaten up at schools and bars. It sucks.

From the other side, I know my ex's teenage son got pushback for wearing his MAGA hat to his liberal Bay Area school - mostly isolation from peers and a lot of harsh lectures from his mother. I tried to stay supportive with him, but haven't had direct contact since our breakup.

moonsweeper

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2021, 02:31:32 PM »
Historically, moving was much more difficult and dangerous than it is today. Transferring money and property was much riskier, and it was risky to move to a place without all the anonymous sources of information we have now. Further, strangers moving in with no connections were often viewed with suspicion.

The big problem both then and now is giving up all one's connections. Most people aren't willing to part with the life that they know. But if someone is willing to give up their previous life, then I think it's much easier now. There's no need to delete anything - they can just not log into those old accounts any more. Just fill in a bunch of forms to change name and transfer accounts.

As far as reputation goes - yes, it is frequently unfair. I hate both historical gossip-mongering and current social media gossip-mongering. I don't see it as a competition - they both suck. Plenty of old celebrities were ruined by scandal, or just by failing to play along with the right people. Careers have been destroyed by relentless and unfair gossip.

Let me ask again, you would need to erase all your digital footprints, that means even photos of you, you would need to get a new legal identity and the papers to go with it, without the new one being able to be traced to the old one.

You would need to do the WITSEC stuff without the government intervening.

This is a false parallel. Simply moving to a new town in past ages was not the equivalent of witness security. People could still find out about a person's past. If after moving they lied about where they were from, nosy neighbors could write to that place to check on them -- and expose the lie. If they told the truth, their past would be exposed.

But this sort of over-the-top witness security isn't necessary. In the modern day, plenty of people do disappear without government witness security help. In the U.S., we have a huge number of missing persons. Common cases are criminals dodging the law, teens running away from their parents, and adults getting away from their spouse and/or family.

They don't have to delete every record of their past lives including all photos in order to disappear. I'm sure that even witness security doesn't delete all photos of the old identity. That's fictional action movie shit. They just change their look (i.e. hair style, clothes, and facial hair or makeup). Once in a completely different setting, they're not going to be recognized. Even people with famous faces have effectively disappeared. There are celebrities who dropped out - like after failing to toe the Hollywood line in the past, and ended up in ordinary careers unrecognized.


You think that is equally difficult than moving away 100 years ago? Hell make it just before the internet, what is more difficult?

To escape a toxic town, maybe without any money and to go elsewhere to start anew or right now to try and escape from the woke mob?

Stop being disingenuous, you know the answer is right now it's more difficult.

I'm not being disingenuous, I simply disagree. As far as I can tell, it's not difficult to escape the woke mob. The problem isn't that the mob track people down who disappear. It's that targets are unwilling to drop their careers and other ties, just as people in history were unwilling to move out of the only place they have known and leave their friends and family behind.

So if the "woke mob" is attacking someone...it is their fault that they won't give up everything they know and love in order to escape?

Jesus, dude...go ahead and tell us how its the girls fault she got raped.

Every time I think you can't stoop any lower, you dig a hole under the fucking bar...

I get it.  I know you post this shit in order to build up your 'social credit' score with the wokists.  You are too smart to not see where all this leads and you have your history here that you can cash in.  That may very well enable you to avoid the first few rounds of the woke cannibal frenzy.  The disgusting part is that you do this from a self-preservation point of view with no pretense at actual principles. 

At least the wokists believe what they are preaching.  I can forgive people who are misguided due to their religion.  You on the other hand are the 80s televangelist version of woke.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2021, 02:45:17 PM »
I'm not being disingenuous, I simply disagree. As far as I can tell, it's not difficult to escape the woke mob. The problem isn't that the mob track people down who disappear. It's that targets are unwilling to drop their careers and other ties, just as people in history were unwilling to move out of the only place they have known and leave their friends and family behind.

I've seen the opposite. Either a person has the fortitude to endure the scorn of people they once admired, liked, and/or loved, and deal with the fact that many will abandon them for being worse than Hitler, or flagelate themselves until the mob is finished sucking every last drop of self-esteem from them, leaving a husk of a person. And that's just online. I can't imagine going through something like that in real life.

The closest real-life experience like this that I've seen is from gay and trans friends of mine -- especially those who came out in the 1980s and 1990s. Many were disowned by their families, faced scorn and derision in public, and cut off from their communities. Many had stories of getting beaten up at schools and bars. It sucks.

From the other side, I know my ex's teenage son got pushback for wearing his MAGA hat to his liberal Bay Area school - mostly isolation from peers and a lot of harsh lectures from his mother. I tried to stay supportive with him, but haven't had direct contact since our breakup.

It goes beyond pushback. Children were being attacked for wearing MAGA hats.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-teen-maga-hat-bullies-bus-attack-video-hamilton-county

Perhaps that's why a notable amount of gay people are deserting the woke culture. Maybe they see echoes of the intolerance they once faced.

The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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jhkim

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2021, 04:52:41 PM »
From the other side, I know my ex's teenage son got pushback for wearing his MAGA hat to his liberal Bay Area school - mostly isolation from peers and a lot of harsh lectures from his mother. I tried to stay supportive with him, but haven't had direct contact since our breakup.

It goes beyond pushback. Children were being attacked for wearing MAGA hats.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-teen-maga-hat-bullies-bus-attack-video-hamilton-county

Sure, I don't disagree that happens. I was just talking about what I have direct experience with -- i.e. what has happened to people that I personally know. I realize that there are news stories about more extreme behavior, but those are often not representative of typical experience.


Perhaps that's why a notable amount of gay people are deserting the woke culture. Maybe they see echoes of the intolerance they once faced.

Maybe. Overall, though, people have just been growing ever more partisan on both sides.


You think that is equally difficult than moving away 100 years ago? Hell make it just before the internet, what is more difficult?

To escape a toxic town, maybe without any money and to go elsewhere to start anew or right now to try and escape from the woke mob?

Stop being disingenuous, you know the answer is right now it's more difficult.

I'm not being disingenuous, I simply disagree. As far as I can tell, it's not difficult to escape the woke mob. The problem isn't that the mob track people down who disappear. It's that targets are unwilling to drop their careers and other ties, just as people in history were unwilling to move out of the only place they have known and leave their friends and family behind.

So if the "woke mob" is attacking someone...it is their fault that they won't give up everything they know and love in order to escape?

Jesus, dude...go ahead and tell us how its the girls fault she got raped.

Every time I think you can't stoop any lower, you dig a hole under the fucking bar...

Fuck you, moonsweeper. That's not what I said, and if your head wasn't completely up your asshole, that would be obvious to you as well.

GeekyBugle claims that it was easy to escape mob condemnation a hundred years ago, but somehow you don't take that as him condoning lynch mobs back then. But of course, he can do no wrong since he's on your side.

Take your fucking strawman bullshit and stuff it where the sun doesn't shine.

I don't condone hate mobs either a hundred years ago or today. What I disagree about is that whether today's Internet hate mobs are so much worse than the hate mobs of a hundred years ago.

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2021, 05:50:57 PM »
From the other side, I know my ex's teenage son got pushback for wearing his MAGA hat to his liberal Bay Area school - mostly isolation from peers and a lot of harsh lectures from his mother. I tried to stay supportive with him, but haven't had direct contact since our breakup.

It goes beyond pushback. Children were being attacked for wearing MAGA hats.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-teen-maga-hat-bullies-bus-attack-video-hamilton-county

Sure, I don't disagree that happens. I was just talking about what I have direct experience with -- i.e. what has happened to people that I personally know. I realize that there are news stories about more extreme behavior, but those are often not representative of typical experience.


Perhaps that's why a notable amount of gay people are deserting the woke culture. Maybe they see echoes of the intolerance they once faced.

Maybe. Overall, though, people have just been growing ever more partisan on both sides.


You think that is equally difficult than moving away 100 years ago? Hell make it just before the internet, what is more difficult?

To escape a toxic town, maybe without any money and to go elsewhere to start anew or right now to try and escape from the woke mob?

Stop being disingenuous, you know the answer is right now it's more difficult.

I'm not being disingenuous, I simply disagree. As far as I can tell, it's not difficult to escape the woke mob. The problem isn't that the mob track people down who disappear. It's that targets are unwilling to drop their careers and other ties, just as people in history were unwilling to move out of the only place they have known and leave their friends and family behind.

So if the "woke mob" is attacking someone...it is their fault that they won't give up everything they know and love in order to escape?

Jesus, dude...go ahead and tell us how its the girls fault she got raped.

Every time I think you can't stoop any lower, you dig a hole under the fucking bar...

Fuck you, moonsweeper. That's not what I said, and if your head wasn't completely up your asshole, that would be obvious to you as well.

GeekyBugle claims that it was easy to escape mob condemnation a hundred years ago, but somehow you don't take that as him condoning lynch mobs back then. But of course, he can do no wrong since he's on your side.

Take your fucking strawman bullshit and stuff it where the sun doesn't shine.

I don't condone hate mobs either a hundred years ago or today. What I disagree about is that whether today's Internet hate mobs are so much worse than the hate mobs of a hundred years ago.
Keep saying that right up to the point where the beast turns on you. Maybe it'll be kind as it devours you.

I mean, I don't see how someone can be this dense. Geeky is pointing out how much harder it is to try and 'start over' when you try to escape your past (for good or bad reasons) nowadays.

But these are your words, son: "I'm not being disingenuous, I simply disagree. As far as I can tell, it's not difficult to escape the woke mob. The problem isn't that the mob track people down who disappear. It's that targets are unwilling to drop their careers and other ties, just as people in history were unwilling to move out of the only place they have known and leave their friends and family behind."

So basically you should just go Galt to evade the mob, even if they're wrong?

How about a new idea: when people camp out on my lawn and harass me, I call the cops and tell them 'get rid of them or I deal with them. You have 30 minutes'. And then hang up.

Remember, flowerbeds need fertilizer too.

jhkim

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2021, 05:56:10 PM »
I mean, I don't see how someone can be this dense. Geeky is pointing out how much harder it is to try and 'start over' when you try to escape your past (for good or bad reasons) nowadays.

Right. So since he claims it was easier to escape your past in the old days, he's blaming everyone a hundred years ago who failed to escape their past. I mean, it's their own fault that they failed to move out and were lynched, right?

Just like how I said that it's easier to escape your past in the present, therefore I'm blaming everyone in the present who failed to escape their past.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2021, 05:59:57 PM »
I mean, I don't see how someone can be this dense. Geeky is pointing out how much harder it is to try and 'start over' when you try to escape your past (for good or bad reasons) nowadays.

Right. So since he claims it was easier to escape your past in the old days, he's blaming everyone a hundred years ago who failed to escape their past. I mean, it's their own fault that they failed to move out and were lynched, right?

Just like how I said that it's easier to escape your past in the present, therefore I'm blaming everyone in the present who failed to escape their past.
Seriously? This is why people get pissed with you. He's not BLAMING anyone.

You, on the other hand, are definitely doing so.

Again: should people have to abandon everything to escape a mob? Yes or no?

jhkim

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2021, 06:02:52 PM »
I mean, I don't see how someone can be this dense. Geeky is pointing out how much harder it is to try and 'start over' when you try to escape your past (for good or bad reasons) nowadays.

Right. So since he claims it was easier to escape your past in the old days, he's blaming everyone a hundred years ago who failed to escape their past. I mean, it's their own fault that they failed to move out and were lynched, right?

Just like how I said that it's easier to escape your past in the present, therefore I'm blaming everyone in the present who failed to escape their past.
Seriously? This is why people get pissed with you. He's not BLAMING anyone.

You, on the other hand, are definitely doing so.

Again: should people have to abandon everything to escape a mob? Yes or no?

No, people 100 years ago should not have to abandon everything to escape a mob.

No, people today should not have to abandon every everything to escape a mob.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2021, 06:05:59 PM »
I mean, I don't see how someone can be this dense. Geeky is pointing out how much harder it is to try and 'start over' when you try to escape your past (for good or bad reasons) nowadays.

Right. So since he claims it was easier to escape your past in the old days, he's blaming everyone a hundred years ago who failed to escape their past. I mean, it's their own fault that they failed to move out and were lynched, right?

Just like how I said that it's easier to escape your past in the present, therefore I'm blaming everyone in the present who failed to escape their past.
Seriously? This is why people get pissed with you. He's not BLAMING anyone.

You, on the other hand, are definitely doing so.

Again: should people have to abandon everything to escape a mob? Yes or no?

No, people 100 years ago should not have to abandon everything to escape a mob.

No, people today should not have to abandon every everything to escape a mob.
I suggest you start practicing that sentiment, then.

It's a lot easier to face a mob when you have allies and friends, rather than alone.

Because make no mistake: the taste for blood is not something a mob ever, ever gives up willingly.

jhkim

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2021, 06:16:12 PM »
No, people 100 years ago should not have to abandon everything to escape a mob.

No, people today should not have to abandon every everything to escape a mob.

I suggest you start practicing that sentiment, then.

It's a lot easier to face a mob when you have allies and friends, rather than alone.

Because make no mistake: the taste for blood is not something a mob ever, ever gives up willingly.

I'm not clear what you're saying I should do differently. I support tolerance, free speech, and dialog between different sides - both online and in real life.

As for allies and friends - my friends are the people who don't form mobs, and who don't instantly jump to misreading me into their partisan prejudices.

Pat
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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2021, 06:54:27 PM »

I get it.  I know you post this shit in order to build up your 'social credit' score with the wokists.  You are too smart to not see where all this leads and you have your history here that you can cash in.  That may very well enable you to avoid the first few rounds of the woke cannibal frenzy.  The disgusting part is that you do this from a self-preservation point of view with no pretense at actual principles. 
That's way over the top. I've certainly been frustrated by interactions with John Kim, but jumping to the conclusion that it's some grand plot to get in with some undefined crowd elsewhere is ... well, it's a conspiracy theory. It's creating an elaborate set of hidden motivations and actions to explain fairly straightforward behavior. Kim seems to be an old school liberal. Not in the classic liberal sense, but in the old 80s era liberal sense. Not woke, and in fact opposed to some of their tactics, but sympathetic at least with the professed motives of social justice. And that bleeds through.