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Author Topic: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes  (Read 806 times)

Ratman_tf

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2021, 04:13:24 PM »
If you think any of this is okay YOU are the baddies.

You keep saying this around a buncha assholes who already agree with you and it keeps having zero impact on the world accordingly way to take a stand dude.

You keep making these "observations" on a board with a 'buncha assholes" and it keeps having zero impact on them way to take a stand dude.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2021, 04:17:29 PM »
To distinguish: Everybody has a reputation and that's normal, ethical, and fine. If a restaurant serves you shit food, and the waiters fart in your face, you spread the word to others, and possibly leave a review on yelp. That's 100% fair and ethical.
However, reputation systems track that sort of review across all aspects of their lives. And add in algorithms or a set of ethics demanded by the state, and you have an invasive system that cross-references you at every aspect of your life and turns every citizen into a snitch, that are encouraged to snitch on each other.

This was more the norm throughout history. You couldn't run a store in a small town without people knowing about how your family is, and whether you turn up to church, and a hundred other parts of your life -- and small towns and farms were 90+% of the people in history. The ability to be a total asshole online with no consequences is an unusual exception of the modern age.


Star Treks' economics are just hand-waved and just assume that what the fundamental change is in the average PERSON. The idea is that it's not so much that a system made people better, but better people made a better system regardless of underpinnings. When it got all anti-money that was just stupidity on the writer's parts. It's like an idea that not having toilets will make people poop less. 'We have outgrown the need for toilets so we don't have them anymore.

Because human greed is limitless, no matter the replicators and near infinite energy. Some credit systems would have to be implemented for access and special privileges.

I disagree. Yes, there will be some sort of economic system -- but I think it is possible for human behavior to improve. This exactly like how critics three centuries ago said that democracy and free speech couldn't work, because it is human nature to be violent and dominate. But human social behavior today is better in many many ways compared to pre-Enlightenment times. There are some things that haven't changed as much, but it is possible to picture improvement.

In the bigger picture, some societies have been far worse to their people -- and had people behave far worse to each other.

Yes, it's hand-wavey to suggest that society could be better like -- but that's what much of science fiction is... postulating things that don't exist at present. I think picturing that everything would work exactly the same is unnecessarily limiting. I like a lot of cyberpunk with its megacorps, but it shouldn't be the only type of science fiction future.

I think the issue with Trek is that in TNG, Roddenberry leaned pretty hard into "We got rid of money, now everything is better!" It's a huge handwave and a children's level view of money being bad because rich people suck.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2021, 04:18:03 PM »
If you think any of this is okay YOU are the baddies.

You keep saying this around a buncha assholes who already agree with you and it keeps having zero impact on the world accordingly way to take a stand dude.

You keep making these "observations" on a board with a 'buncha assholes" and it keeps having zero impact on them way to take a stand dude.

Thanks bud, glad to see you're embracing the emptiness.
I don't want to play with you.

Shasarak

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2021, 05:08:16 PM »
If you think any of this is okay YOU are the baddies.

Well yeah, some guy is going to purge everyone so obviously baddies.
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2021, 05:11:10 PM »
If you think any of this is okay YOU are the baddies.

Well yeah, some guy is going to purge everyone so obviously baddies.

You get it
I don't want to play with you.

Zelen

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2021, 07:45:26 PM »
The problem is and always will be the persistence of data plus having centralized ways to access all that data. If you can just look up a person and find out something they did 5 years ago and try to ruin their life over that, well, we don't need more of that. We need protections against that, ideally technological in nature so the capability for abuse is eliminated
I think privacy is pretty fundamental to living a normal human life and I don't care if it's an imposition on Facebook/Google/FBI/CIA. In fact I don't want them holding onto information pretty much at all.

I think the issue with Trek is that in TNG, Roddenberry leaned pretty hard into "We got rid of money, now everything is better!" It's a huge handwave and a children's level view of money being bad because rich people suck.

Yeah. TNG Trek isn't very credible because it more-or-less erases a whole swath of human character traits. You occasionally see main cast characters with jealousy, greed, lust, arrogance, etc, but everything is cerebral-ized, milquetoast and detached.

In reality to succeed and become the kinds of competent people Trek portrays, you need to be driven by powerful needs to excel, be the best, push the boundaries. The types of people a deeply egalitarian society would produce are... pretty unlikely to be hyper-competent people driven to succeed and rise in the ranks of a military organization. People accuse Star Wars of being science fantasy, but Star Trek is definitely a deeper level of fantasy.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 08:38:59 PM by Zelen »

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2021, 08:31:41 PM »
The types of people a deeply egalitarian society would produce are... pretty unlikely to be hyper-competent people driven to succeed and rise in the ranks of a military organization.

It's possible that within the federation if you want to be in a meritocratic system, you MUST join the military. Because everything else is regulated and overseen by beuracrats. So all the competent people go to Starfleet because nothing happens anywhere else.
How ironic.

I believe Gene actually stated this was the case for TOS in a book somewhere.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2021, 09:15:36 PM »
If you think any of this is okay YOU are the baddies.

You keep saying this around a buncha assholes who already agree with you and it keeps having zero impact on the world accordingly way to take a stand dude.

You keep making these "observations" on a board with a 'buncha assholes" and it keeps having zero impact on them way to take a stand dude.

Thanks bud, glad to see you're embracing the emptiness.

You merely embraced the emptiness. I was born in it. Molded by it.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Pat

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2021, 09:54:49 PM »
It's possible that within the federation if you want to be in a meritocratic system, you MUST join the military. Because everything else is regulated and overseen by beuracrats. So all the competent people go to Starfleet because nothing happens anywhere else.
How ironic.

I believe Gene actually stated this was the case for TOS in a book somewhere.
So does that make Starship Troopers the prequel or the sequel of the TOS?

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2021, 09:59:53 PM »
If you think any of this is okay YOU are the baddies.

You keep saying this around a buncha assholes who already agree with you and it keeps having zero impact on the world accordingly way to take a stand dude.

You keep making these "observations" on a board with a 'buncha assholes" and it keeps having zero impact on them way to take a stand dude.

Thanks bud, glad to see you're embracing the emptiness.

You merely embraced the emptiness. I was born in it. Molded by it.

Merely born in emptiness is weak, you never had a choice to love emptiness and become one with it, you've never fucked emptiness like I have.
I don't want to play with you.

Pat

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2021, 10:24:35 PM »
Merely born in emptiness is weak, you never had a choice to love emptiness and become one with it, you've never fucked emptiness like I have.
Why don't you and emptiness find a room.

jhkim

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2021, 11:39:17 PM »
For most people in history, it was really really difficult to just pick up and move to a completely new place where no one knew you. It's roughly equivalent today to deleting all your online accounts, moving, and changing your name and career -- which is all possible, but very difficult.

I'm not arguing that this is good. But many people were saying that reputation was only a thing for 21st century online liberals or explicitly communist countries. But I think it's far broader and more normal than that. Reputation has been hugely important in both historical and current societies, and it's not clear to me exactly how a "reputation-based economy" would be different or how it would work. For me to judge whether something is good or bad, I first need to understand how it works and thus what it would be like for most people.

Was it as difficult to move away to a place where no one knew you as trying and deleting all your digital footprints, changing your name is?

Historically, moving was much more difficult and dangerous than it is today. Transferring money and property was much riskier, and it was risky to move to a place without all the anonymous sources of information we have now. Further, strangers moving in with no connections were often viewed with suspicion.

The big problem both then and now is giving up all one's connections. Most people aren't willing to part with the life that they know. But if someone is willing to give up their previous life, then I think it's much easier now. There's no need to delete anything - they can just not log into those old accounts any more. Just fill in a bunch of forms to change name and transfer accounts.


As far as reputation goes - yes, it is frequently unfair. I hate both historical gossip-mongering and current social media gossip-mongering. I don't see it as a competition - they both suck. Plenty of old celebrities were ruined by scandal, or just by failing to play along with the right people. Careers have been destroyed by relentless and unfair gossip.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #42 on: Today at 12:00:47 AM »
For most people in history, it was really really difficult to just pick up and move to a completely new place where no one knew you. It's roughly equivalent today to deleting all your online accounts, moving, and changing your name and career -- which is all possible, but very difficult.

I'm not arguing that this is good. But many people were saying that reputation was only a thing for 21st century online liberals or explicitly communist countries. But I think it's far broader and more normal than that. Reputation has been hugely important in both historical and current societies, and it's not clear to me exactly how a "reputation-based economy" would be different or how it would work. For me to judge whether something is good or bad, I first need to understand how it works and thus what it would be like for most people.

Was it as difficult to move away to a place where no one knew you as trying and deleting all your digital footprints, changing your name is?

Historically, moving was much more difficult and dangerous than it is today. Transferring money and property was much riskier, and it was risky to move to a place without all the anonymous sources of information we have now. Further, strangers moving in with no connections were often viewed with suspicion.

The big problem both then and now is giving up all one's connections. Most people aren't willing to part with the life that they know. But if someone is willing to give up their previous life, then I think it's much easier now. There's no need to delete anything - they can just not log into those old accounts any more. Just fill in a bunch of forms to change name and transfer accounts.


As far as reputation goes - yes, it is frequently unfair. I hate both historical gossip-mongering and current social media gossip-mongering. I don't see it as a competition - they both suck. Plenty of old celebrities were ruined by scandal, or just by failing to play along with the right people. Careers have been destroyed by relentless and unfair gossip.

Let me ask again, you would need to erase all your digital footprints, that means even photos of you, you would need to get a new legal identity and the papers to go with it, without the new one being able to be traced to the old one.

You would need to do the WITSEC stuff without the government intervening.

You think that is equally difficult than moving away 100 years ago? Hell make it just before the internet, what is more difficult?

To escape a toxic town, maybe without any money and to go elsewhere to start anew or right now to try and escape from the woke mob?

Stop being disingenuous, you know the answer is right now it's more difficult.
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #43 on: Today at 12:08:23 AM »
Merely born in emptiness is weak, you never had a choice to love emptiness and become one with it, you've never fucked emptiness like I have.
Why don't you and emptiness find a room.


I tried to find a room with emptiness but there was nothing in it so we just do it in the street instead
I don't want to play with you.

Shasarak

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Re: Reputation based economies are dystopian hellholes
« Reply #44 on: Today at 12:29:31 AM »
Historically, moving was much more difficult and dangerous than it is today.

Thats why only white people used to do it.

The rest stayed home and complained about how risky it was.
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus