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Author Topic: Women and Leftists more censorious study finds.  (Read 3876 times)

tenbones

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Women and Leftists more censorious study finds.
« Reply #150 on: October 25, 2019, 11:54:32 AM »
Quote from: Shasarak;1111639
Yes, Doctors get paid a set amount of money.  They can then choose to charge over that amount and patients can decide which Doctor that they want to see based on what fees the Doctors are charging.

This is not remotely how it works outside of Medicare which doctors typically avoid like the plague because the returns are too low. What you're ignoring is the regulations being placed upon healthcare providers - in terms of Malpractice Insurance among all the other regulatory costs ON top of operational costs if it's their own private practice. It's driving all healthcare providers, generally, to be a volume-profit business. You really can't imagine how ridiculous it all is.

Then enter corporate healthcare - where they do their utmost, as all corporations do, to do one-size-fits all healthcare. Where doctors are essentially mercenaries dealing with a whole different kind of bureaucratic morass on top of the standard regulatory garbage.

Because under the auspices of "lives mattering" - somehow the financial demands have eclipsed the need for actual healthcare. That's the dirty secret. The very needs of the bureaucracy in feeding the bureaucracy in order to turn profit, fueled by institutionalized insurance requirements because of the intensely litigiousness nature of US culture, has turned into insurance extortion - most doctors are under the financial barrage from the jump.

Your overly simplistic view of "how it should work" - hasn't been that way since Horse-and-Buggy days, when Doctors would take a basket of apples for treating you for the "vapors". I'm not suggesting it shouldn't or couldn't be that way... but we'd be living in an entirely different reality to get there.

Quote from: Shasarak;1111639
Do they produce those papers in Journals like the British Medical Journal?  Or is it only in other lesser known American journals?

Producing papers is only part of the equation. I mean... people are *paid* to do research. That's their job. Reverse your position - it means that the EU are not paying *as much* - they don't need to - because we're already doing it. The real scam is in the amount the "evil" pharmaceutical companies are putting into research and the rest of the world simply gets the formula and starts mass-producing knock-offs. Then those pharmaceutical companies are branded evil cocksuckers because they're jacking up prices to offset their costs and losses, which ultimately fucks *us*.

The biggest joke of all is those newly fucked people point to those very nations that exacerbate the fucking and say "Look how cheap their healthcare is!"... Well shit that "falls off the truck" do tend to be cheaper. You just don't get to decide when it arrives. Same principle.

Quote from: Shasarak;1111639
The Drug Companies do not get paid below market cost because, by definition, the money that they get paid must be Market cost so therefore no subsidy.  Its not rocket science man, the US is not subsidising anyones medicines, they are just getting ripped off.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Pharmaceutical companies spend on average 17% of their profits on pure R&D. Compared to other industries - like the Military, which is about 3%. Let that sink in. The *average* singular drug development cost is ~$3-billion dollars and takes YEARS to go through trials. All of that is *upfront* costs. How many businesses have to fork out billions of dollars for the *chance* at turning a profit?

And the reality is that most drugs fail. Then it's back to the drawing board... Couple that to the patent-laws which are the only things holding up these pharmacorps, because it's the only economical way for the R&D to be offset. The idea is based purely on the notion the company can find the one drug that can impact a huge problem and net a profit. When you see people getting fucked for high prices - it's usually some asshat company jacking up prices on established medications to fund some other thing they're doing (which is pretty gross... but common for newer pharmacorps).

And we haven't even spoken about the regulatory hoops and flim-flams that they jump through at extra costs. Are they part of the problem? Sure. Are they the only problem? Not even close.

Putting the government in charge of your healthcare... and I'm saying this as a government healthcare employee - is a *disaster* waiting to happen.

Pat
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« Reply #151 on: October 25, 2019, 12:13:22 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1111749
This is not remotely how it works outside of Medicare ...
Shasarak is talking about New Zealand.

jhkim

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« Reply #152 on: October 25, 2019, 01:53:31 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1111749
Producing papers is only part of the equation. I mean... people are *paid* to do research. That's their job. Reverse your position - it means that the EU are not paying *as much* - they don't need to - because we're already doing it. The real scam is in the amount the "evil" pharmaceutical companies are putting into research and the rest of the world simply gets the formula and starts mass-producing knock-offs. Then those pharmaceutical companies are branded evil cocksuckers because they're jacking up prices to offset their costs and losses, which ultimately fucks *us*.
As Shasarak has said, New Zealand (along with the EU and many other countries) are paying drug companies for the drugs they buy -- they're not illegally stealing. They buy in bulk and negotiate for a lower price based on the amount they're buying, but that's part of how any market works. It's not like New Zealand is so damn big and dangerous that American drug companies can't say no.

Quote from: tenbones;1111749
Putting the government in charge of your healthcare... and I'm saying this as a government healthcare employee - is a *disaster* waiting to happen.
The simple fact of how other countries work flies in the face of this. If government health care is such a disaster full of waste, then I'd expect to see major health problems in all other First World countries that use it -- in issues unrelated to drug R&D. Overall, I don't. There are some issues like longer wait times, but the overall outcomes are as good or better in terms like lifespan and health-adjusted mortality.

And to Pat --
Quote from: jhkim
From what I read from experts on the subject, nearly everyone says that the current U.S. system is broken, and they mostly recommend some form of single-payer solution
Quote from: Pat;1111631
No, they don't, you're just living in a bubble. The Atlantic, NYT, and the Commonwealth Funds all lean strongly to the left.

I literally just type the words "how to reform the healthcare system" into DuckDuckGo. No cherry picking at all, that was my first search, and these are the first three links:
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/opinion-blog/2014/07/17/how-to-fix-the-health-care-system-in-three-easy-steps
https://www.mercatus.org/publications/healthcare/american-health-care-system-principles-successful-reform
https://www.aafp.org/advocacy/track/principles-for-reform.html

The first two both suggest getting seniors out of Medicare, while the last talks about public/private cooperation (it's hard to get more specific, it's such a vague wad of businessese). Let's tally that up: 0/3 support single payer.
I note that you left out "expert" from your search - which I consider important. There are lots of politicians and pundits who have easy answers for health care reform - but that's different from expert analysis. Your first link is a pundit with no qualifications and supposed easy answers. The second link at least seems qualified in economics, so I'll grant it as expert - and he does endorse free market health care reform. However, the third link doesn't specifically say "single payer", but it does say:

"2. The health care system in the U.S. must provide appropriate health care to all people within the U.S. borders, without unreasonable financial barriers to care."

Maybe that's what you're calling a vague wad of businessese, but it clearly calls for universal coverage which requires a public option.

I'll grant that it's hard to estimate "most". Expert opinions do differ. Mostly they don't endorse a single plan, because the issues are complex. But many do endorse universal coverage public health care.

-----

When I search in DuckDuckGo for "expert opinion u.s. health reform" (adding in "expert") -- here are the top four results I get:

1) Center for American Progress "Expert Opinion on the ACA Repeal and Delay Strategy"
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/healthcare/reports/2017/01/19/296808/expert-opinion-on-the-aca-repeal-and-delay-strategy/

2) USNews "Health Care Reform" topic - Top article "Community involvement is key, experts at The Atlantic Forum agree"
https://www.usnews.com/topics/subjects/health-care-reform

3) NPR "Americans Don't Want Senate's Health Care Plan, But It's Unclear What They Do Want" - which is opinion polling
https://www.npr.org/2017/07/10/536007571/americans-dont-want-senates-health-care-plan-but-its-unclear-what-they-do-want

4) Kaiser Family Foundation on "Pulling it Together: The Experts vs. The Public on Health Reform"
https://www.kff.org/health-costs/perspective/pulling-it-together-the-experts-vs-the/

Of these, none particularly endorse either free market or public - and some aren't expert opinion at all. Still, #2 calls for community involvement while #4 points out gaps between expert and public opinion especially noting how American patients have unnecessary treatment.

HappyDaze

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« Reply #153 on: October 25, 2019, 01:54:53 PM »
Interesting stuff on health care, but shouldn't it be its own topic/thread as it doesn't have much to do with this one?

Pat
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« Reply #154 on: October 25, 2019, 03:14:59 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1111774
As Shasarak has said, New Zealand (along with the EU and many other countries) are paying drug companies for the drugs they buy -- they're not illegally stealing. They buy in bulk and negotiate for a lower price based on the amount they're buying, but that's part of how any market works. It's not like New Zealand is so damn big and dangerous that American drug companies can't say no.
Illegally stealing? Not only did nobody (except you) say the word "stealing", but the very concept makes no sense. These are governments, they define what's legal. Do you really think they're going to charge and prosecute themselves? Also, nobody (except you again) claimed that New Zealand is threatening to use force against drug companies. It's monopolistic price fixing, which is generally not what people think of when they hear the words "free market".

Quote from: jhkim;1111774
I note that you left out "expert" from your search - which I consider important.
I consider some level of expertise to be important, but I don't consider it an important word to add to a search, because it in no way selects for actual experts. And that's not the point of the exercise, anyway. You claimed most proposed fixes recommended single payer, and that's clearly not the case.

Quote from: jhkim;1111774
... but it clearly calls for universal coverage which requires a public option.
Are you unaware of the existence of Medicaid?

tenbones

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« Reply #155 on: October 25, 2019, 03:32:37 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1111774
As Shasarak has said, New Zealand (along with the EU and many other countries) are paying drug companies for the drugs they buy -- they're not illegally stealing. They buy in bulk and negotiate for a lower price based on the amount they're buying, but that's part of how any market works. It's not like New Zealand is so damn big and dangerous that American drug companies can't say no.

I'm not saying they're stealing. Our politicians are the ones that establish how we conduct trade. And the bottom line is they're not funding the vast majority of R&D that we are that they directly benefit from. And they're not paying the drug companies directly - they're also producing their own variants of those drugs. We didn't even enter into a MRA (Mutual Recognition Agreement) with the EU until *JULY of this year*, in order to "reduce duplicated efforts" - which is the nice way of saying "stay in your lane". But subsequent Patent laws isn't preventing the loss from happening, which I'm hoping while Trump is in power - he'll get that in there.

You're illustrating exactly what Pat and I are saying. They're spending less on R&D because they don't have to. They spend less on the military because they don't have to. Their GDP is nearly comparable to ours - but despite that they fold those resources which they save on military and science/medical R&D so they can afford these systems whilst taxing the shit out of their people.

And for that: we get better outcomes on the critical medical care, and we get it sooner.

Yes I'm dismissing your claims that single payor is doable. It's only doable if we convert our entire nation into an EU-like structure... and that's not going to work. Ever. R&D will go through the floor. The EU would likely eat shit faster because we couldn't afford to subsidize their security either, then they'll do what the Europeans have done for the last two-thousand years - find reasons to kill one another.


Quote from: jhkim;1111774
The simple fact of how other countries work flies in the face of this. If government health care is such a disaster full of waste, then I'd expect to see major health problems in all other First World countries that use it -- in issues unrelated to drug R&D. Overall, I don't. There are some issues like longer wait times, but the overall outcomes are as good or better in terms like lifespan and health-adjusted mortality.

Mortality rates for illnesses that are serious like Cancer are far better here in the US. We have issues with heart and metabolic problems because of our diet. There are *no* countries in the EU that compare to the US in scale... it's disingenuous to pretend it's the same thing.

Yes I'm dismissing your claims that single payor is realistic. We'd have to completely restructure the economy of the entire country to make it work and it would be temporary at BEST.  R&D will go through the floor. The EU would likely eat shit faster because we couldn't afford to subsidize their security either, then they'll do what the Europeans have done for the last two-thousand years - find reasons to kill one another.

tenbones

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« Reply #156 on: October 25, 2019, 03:33:07 PM »
Quote from: HappyDaze;1111775
Interesting stuff on health care, but shouldn't it be its own topic/thread as it doesn't have much to do with this one?

I'm being censored! WHARGARBLE!

Pat
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« Reply #157 on: October 25, 2019, 04:00:42 PM »
Another point that tenbones alluded to, but hasn't been made explicit is when you compare outcomes, you need to control for the population. Even if two systems are identical, you won't get the same outcomes if the inputs are different. For instance, the US has a larger obesity problem than much of Europe, which causes an enormous number of secondary effects, from type 2 diabetes to a higher risk of certain cancers. And that's a social issue, not a reflection on a healthcare system.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 04:14:34 PM by Pat »

Shasarak

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« Reply #158 on: October 25, 2019, 04:45:42 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1111785
You're illustrating exactly what Pat and I are saying. They're spending less on R&D because they don't have to. They spend less on the military because they don't have to. Their GDP is nearly comparable to ours - but despite that they fold those resources which they save on military and science/medical R&D so they can afford these systems whilst taxing the shit out of their people.

And for that: we get better outcomes on the critical medical care, and we get it sooner.

tenbones I think you have this exactly bassackward.  The reason that Drug companies do R&D is so that they can make a profit from the drugs that they develop.  That is how all companies that develop new things work.  For example when Apple does R&D on their new iphone no one says that  America is subsidising the rest of the worlds phone research costs.  That would be just mental.

The way that the free market works is that you come up with a new product and the rest of us decide if it is worth what you want to charge for it.  You dont get to cry when we decide to get an Android phone instead.

So dont try and feed me the bullshit about subsidising health research.  If GSK or Pfizer dont want to do research and make money off new products then just dont do research and make money off their back catalog of medicines and then we can see how long the CEO lasts when the share holders decide that he is not doing enough to make money.
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Spinachcat

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« Reply #159 on: October 25, 2019, 05:22:08 PM »
I have always wondered why we could not just let people BUY into Medicare. We already have the Medicare infrastructure operating and our bean counters could come up with a dollar amount for how much Medicare membership should cost monthly and annually. Then, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel and upend our entire healthcare sector, the private insurance would have to compete with Medicare as a purchase option.


Quote from: jhkim;1111590
That said, our current system keeps having rising costs - both to the government and the individual. Our public/private system keeps costing more and more, and so I think we really need to make some major change.


I agree. In fact, I believe everyone agrees the current system isn't optimal.


Quote from: jhkim;1111590
That wasn't Spinachcat's answer - he claimed it was the military.


Government budgets are one big pot. If the USA throws $10B into your pot for military, that's $10B you don't need to spend on military and can spend elsewhere. It's even crazier when the USA is throwing subsidies for military and healthcare. We have homeless and impoverished US citizens, yet we're handing out golden diapers to foreign nations. That's insane.


Quote from: jhkim;1111590
And I've asked you previously about how you would stop this subsidizing, and gotten no answer. Adopting single-payer would at least stop our subsidizing of their medical care.


We would first have to understand EXACTLY how we are subsidizing their healthcare. What exact mechanisms are being used, and why exactly are they currently in place and why our pharma corps are not charging full price to all markets. I don't think anyone has explained the HOW the subsidizing is done. But the thread is long so I may have missed that post.

Also, I'm unsure how single-payer would stop the subsidizing. Please explain.


Quote from: SHARK;1111622
I can't help but remember the "Expert" that was in charge of Obamacare. He is quoted as saying the American public are a bunch of stupid sheep, and they just have to word the message and marketing right, and the public will swallow it, regardless of what the facts say.


Shark, you're are a crazy right winger! You two-gender-only Nazis are fucked in the head! Nobody ever said that!!

Oh wait, here's the video of the ACA architect discussing the "stupidity of the American voter":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEjr9WchNkg

And in the pre-Trump era, even Forbes and CNN covered it!!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/11/10/aca-architect-the-stupidity-of-the-american-voter-led-us-to-hide-obamacares-tax-hikes-and-subsidies-from-the-public/#1a9f0f297c05
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/14/politics/obamacare-voters-stupid-explainer/index.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2015/06/21/contrary-to-white-house-denials-emails-show-jonathan-gruber-was-integral-to-obamacare/#2ba6d013264e


Quote from: HappyDaze;1111775
Interesting stuff on health care, but shouldn't it be its own topic/thread as it doesn't have much to do with this one?


Yes it should! Go forth and start the new thread!!