Related to the X-card

[jeff37923]

Over the years, various parents and concerned adults have spouted how RPGs are dangerous, addictive, and/or other problems. However, the actual psychological studies have pretty clearly shown no issue with RPGs. I have collected a page documenting some of the studies here:

http://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

I realize that these (obviously) haven't specifically studied games using the X-card. Given the past false accusations, though, I am skeptical of any claim that some new mechanic causes psychological harm. Though conversely, I am also skeptical of any claim that a new mechanic causes psychological benefits.

As a personal note, my father is a psychiatrist, and he was very disapproving of RPGs as I grew up. So I'm not particularly convinced by a single patient or even a single professional.

Dude, I question your ability to discern what is relevant and what isn't. Your list of works include The Devil's Web by Patricia Pulling which was the bible for B.A.D.D. and seems pretty dismissive of Michael Stackpole's The Pulling Report which at least has a complete bibliography and list of references to back up the analysis.

[Bren]

I don't hugely disagree withe the former. I agree that the X-card is unnecessary, and it does strike me as "feel good" rather than serious psychology. As I've said over many times, I disagree with anyone who says that the X-card is necessary.  Anyone claiming that there is real psychological benefit from the X-card would have to prove it, and I've seen no evidence for such.

Wouldn't have been nice then if John Stavropoulos had described the X-Card as just a feel good gimmick for tables to try out?

Maybe he could even combine it with different feel good gimmicks for groups to try out like starting each game by playing a table theme song or even have the group sing the song together; taking a 5-10 minute break once an hour for group calesthenics - much healthier than those terrible snacks and drinks many gamers ingest; group hugs, fanny smacks, or shoulder pats whenever a player rolls well or thinks of a great idea; or even starting each game with a prayer session.

But John didn't do that. He claimed that there were people who needed a mechanic like the X-Card to play games safely or maybe even to play them at all. And then he claimed that the X-Card fixed the game for those people. Those are big claims. Big claims need big evidence. Where is it?

[jhkim]

Dude, I question your ability to discern what is relevant and what isn't. Your list of works include The Devil's Web by Patricia Pulling which was the bible for B.A.D.D. and seems pretty dismissive of Michael Stackpole's The Pulling Report which at least has a complete bibliography and list of references to back up the analysis.

Sorry, I did not intend at all to be dismissive of "The Pulling Report". I just wanted to be clear when linking to it that it was not a neutral source, but rather a debunking. I've just now revised the language for that section - I hope it improves your impression.

"There appears to be no active site for these claims, which have been thoroughly investigated and debunked in "The Pulling Report" (1990), written by Michael A. Stackpole."

http://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

I do not want to omit Pulling because I don't want to seem like I am editing out negative claims - but I also make clear that there are no scientific basis to its claims.

[jhkim]

But John didn't do that. He claimed that there were people who needed a mechanic like the X-Card to play games safely or maybe even to play them at all. And then he claimed that the X-Card fixed the game for those people. Those are big claims. Big claims need big evidence. Where is it?

I'm not sure why you're asking me. I've already said over and over that I do not consider the X-card to be necessary, and I disagree with those who think that it is. As far as I know, there is no concrete evidence of improved psychological health or safety.

However, that doesn't justify opposing claims either - particularly the flip-flopping between the initial "No one could possibly be triggered by a tabletop RPG!! The X-card sucks!!" to the current "It is vital protect those triggered in games from the psychological damage of the X-card!!"

I've played in a game with the X-card, and talked to several people who have used it. I have not particularly been a supporter of it, and have never used it in my own games. But the attacks on it here have been over the top ridiculous.

[shlominus]

I think the X Card is, at best, a completely unnecessary prop for "feel good" pseudo-psychological self congratulatory back patting and attention grabbing. At worst, it's armchair psychology messing with complex ychological issues as a game mechanic. Neither one sounds good to me.

Now, I've already said everything I have to say on this subject, and far more than I ever intended to. I'm done with this subject.

thanks for posting. very much appreciated!

shlominus, can you imagine anything that would convince you that the X-Card is a bad or unsafe concept?

And if so, what would it take to convince you?

i sure can, cause we have talked about it already. if it turns out that there was no professional support (something i find unlikely, but possible) during development and this was really just an "amateur effort" then i would agree with your assessment that it could potentially be harmful. that would outweigh the benefits in my view. i thought i made that clear before.

I don't hugely disagree withe the former. I agree that the X-card is unnecessary, and it does strike me as "feel good" rather than serious psychology. As I've said over many times, I disagree with anyone who says that the X-card is necessary.  Anyone claiming that there is real psychological benefit from the X-card would have to prove it, and I've seen no evidence for such.

However, if a group as a whole wants to engage in "feel good" behaviors like groups hugs and affirmations - that's their business. While it's not science, that doesn't mean that "feel good" behavior is objectively wrong.

I don't speak for shlominus, but to me, there is a pretty high bar for an RPG mechanic to be considered "unsafe".  The idea that a tabletop mechanic does psychological damage would call for a real professional assessment and evidence.

As a personal note, my father is a psychiatrist, and he was very disapproving of RPGs as I grew up. So I'm not particularly convinced by a single patient or even a single professional.

agreed on all accounts.

X-cards ate my baby.

bastards!

Wouldn't have been nice then if John Stavropoulos had described the X-Card as just a feel good gimmick for tables to try out?

But John didn't do that. He claimed that there were people who needed a mechanic like the X-Card to play games safely or maybe even to play them at all. And then he claimed that the X-Card fixed the game for those people. Those are big claims. Big claims need big evidence. Where is it?

i don't see how that's not what he did. the document says it's optional and the "feel good"-factor isn't hidden. making people comfortable is what it is about. you can dismiss that as a "feel good"-gimmick, but if you do that you also dismiss those that have said it helped them.

i doubt you'll ever get the evidence you seek. maybe we will get answers from john personally, most likely we won't. it's all down to speculation and guesswork really and we won't be able to solve that. apart from the question of professional psychological support i don't see any issue that won't come down to preference, taste or politics (damn sjw trying to undermine roleplaying!).

we are not that far apart, Bren, i understand some of your reservations and while you can only see little benefit, i don't see the potential for harm that you do and i am happy about that "little benefit", because for those that might need it, it's better than nothing. we won't get much more else out of this, it was a good discussion, i think. good training for ignoring internet noise, too.

But the attacks on it here have been over the top ridiculous.

no kidding.

[TristramEvans]

I'm not sure why you're asking me. I've already said over and over that I do not consider the X-card to be necessary, and I disagree with those who think that it is. As far as I know, there is no concrete evidence of improved psychological health or safety.

However, that doesn't justify opposing claims either - particularly the flip-flopping between the initial "No one could possibly be triggered by a tabletop RPG!! The X-card sucks!!" to the current "It is vital protect those triggered in games from the psychological damage of the X-card!!"

I've played in a game with the X-card, and talked to several people who have used it. I have not particularly been a supporter of it, and have never used it in my own games. But the attacks on it here have been over the top ridiculous.

So you're here to pretentiously tell us to stop being such meanies. I see.

[mAcular Chaotic]

As a personal note, my father is a psychiatrist, and he was very disapproving of RPGs as I grew up. So I'm not particularly convinced by a single patient or even a single professional.

Why did he disapprove? Was it something related to being a psychiatrist?

[trechriron]

X Cards are an obvious ploy to interject political oppression and behavior modification into RPGs. Furthermore, they are a poor mechanism for avoiding emotional triggers.

Do not let your oppressors reprogram you.

FIGHT THE X CARDS!!!

--------------------------------

P.S. In an attempt to appeal to the "They may be too shy" crowd I have decided to modify my public game approach with my upfront conversation. This will be for a "general game" during a "public time slot". I may use my normal approach for a special "after dark horror game" or some such.

1). I want to be inclusive and sensitive to a broad audience. Instead of asking what MPAA rating I might use, I will simply state I run a PG rated game.
2) I will have 3x5 cards at the table for everyone to jot a note on.

"I run a PG rated game. That includes the typical gaming stuff of action violence, combat, chases, monsters, and the common stuff you might see in your average summer blockbuster movie."

"In front of you are 3x5 cards. These are anonymous and secret. If there is any subject that could cause you emotional distress, I would like you to jot that down on the card. I would like everyone to write down "This game will be rated PG" on the card before you include your hot button issues. Please fold the card in half. I will come around to collect them."

"In the course of the game, please remember our PG rating! Do not include graphic descriptions or actions that fall outside that scope. I ask this so everyone can be comfortable during the game."
-------------------------------------

I think this approach is upfront, reasonable and easy to employ at a public game. It fosters continued game play and a focus on making everyone comfortable.

[Bren]

I'm not sure why you're asking me. I've already said over and over that I do not consider the X-card to be necessary, and I disagree with those who think that it is. As far as I know, there is no concrete evidence of improved psychological health or safety.

I’ll come back to answer this.

However, that doesn't justify opposing claims either - particularly the flip-flopping between the initial "No one could possibly be triggered by a tabletop RPG!! The X-card sucks!!" to the current "It is vital protect those triggered in games from the psychological damage of the X-card!!"

I don’t think this is flip-flopping. As I understand it there are two points being made.

First point: people who can safely walk the streets are not going to find an RPG more triggering than ordinary life. So for those people, an X-Card is not needed for those people to safely play and RPG. Moreover some people who have themselves dealt with trauma have stated that avoidance mechanisms like the X-Card are the opposite of what they are supposed to be doing to work on their recovery. Therefore the X-Card, rather than helping those people, actually inhibits their recovery.  So from that perspective, depending on who is at the table, the X-Card is either unnecessary to play an RPG safely or it is a tool that inhibits healthy living and recovery for some (probably small) number of players with severe psychological issues.

Second point: people who have severe psychological issues such that they will be triggered into a full blown panic attack by a trigger that is experienced second hand, i.e. by the description of an NPC smoking or a plane experiencing turbulence in the game will experience far more severe reactions by the experiences of the actual thing i.e. the smell, sound, and sight of someone smoking or by riding in an elevator or going over a bump in a car. And these latter experiences are things that we all experience daily in our ordinary lives. Those people whose psychological issues are that severe should be getting help to deal with the issues they have, most especially when those issues are so severe that even second hand descriptions trigger panic attacks. The X-Card normalizes avoidance, an unhealthy coping mechanism, thus delaying treatment for people who should be seeking treatment and pursuing recovery.

These two points don’t conflict; they just apply to different subsets of the population, not to the exact same people.

I’ve been skeptical of the need and benefit of the X-Card and I found some of the designer’s statements odd. In the interest of full disclosure, I don’t know John Stavropoulos. I haven’t ever met him. I don’t, as far as I know, own anything he has written nor have used or played with any RPG stuff he has written.  I don’t actually know what he has done besides the X-Card. However, I have to say that John’s writing style annoys me, I find it patronizing and condescending  in tone, but that is irrelevant to whether or not he can support his points.  But I suspect the annoyance made me more likely to be initially skeptical of the X-Card. It’s only fair that you know that.

I am not a psychiatrist. I don’t even play one on TV. Nor do I pretend to be one on the Internet. So I don’t know if points one and two above are correct or not. They sound kind of reasonable, but I’m not an expert and the only data are personal anecdotes. However, people have come into this thread and described their experiences with real life psychological issues and with their treatment and recovery. This is the Internet. I don’t know if what they say is real, accurate, or correct. I have no evidence one way or another, but I have no reason to believe they are lying about or exaggerating their own experiences. So absent some evidence that they aren’t honest and correct, I presume that they probably are correct.

The designer of the X-Card is not, so far as I know, a psychiatrist or a licensed professional in the field of mental health. I think if he was he would have mentioned that in his Google Document describing the X-Card. He does reference his friend Martha.

My friend Martha, who is a psychiatrist, said, "RPGs are limited by the tolerance of the people you play with."

Note that Martha apparently didn’t authorize him to use her professional name – unless like Madonna, and the artist formerly known as Prince her professional name is simply “Martha” – which is certainly possible, but I kind of doubt it. Also note that nothing in her statement supports using the X-Card as a tool for recovery or as part of good practice for those who are in recovery from serious mental health issues. The only relevant conclusion I can draw form her statement is that if the X-Card makes people more tolerant of exploring topics that they would normally find too uncomfortable to include in an RPG. This sounds like it supports the X-Card to game around edgy or taboo topics, which is inconsistent with what the designer says elsewhere. I found this comment a bit of a non-sequitur.

John Stavropoulos, the designer of the X-Card says about his invention.

What is it?
It’s a card with an X on it that participants in a Simulation or Role-Playing Game can use to edit out anything that makes them uncomfortable with no explanations needed.
It was originally developed to make gaming with strangers fun, inclusive, and safe.

The number one reason to use the X-Card – safety.

Why use it?

Safety.

But John Stavropoulos doesn’t provide any data to support that the X-Card makes RPGs safer. In fact he doesn’t provide any data to show that RPGs aren’t already safe. So where’s the data? Which brings me back to the question jkhim asked.

I'm not sure why you're asking me. I've already said over and over that I do not consider the X-card to be necessary, and I disagree with those who think that it is. As far as I know, there is no concrete evidence of improved psychological health or safety.

You have repeatedly complained about people who have said the X-Card is bad and should not be used and you have repeatedly supported the idea that people should use the X-Card if they feel like it. That is why I thought it was reasonable to ask you why discount the safety concerns that were raised, i.e. why you think it is safe to use and why you think it makes playing RPGs safer for people who have serious mental issues – which is what John seems to be claiming. Does that clarify why I asked you?

i sure can, cause we have talked about it already. if it turns out that there was no professional support (something i find unlikely, but possible) during development and this was really just an "amateur effort" then i would agree with your assessment that it could potentially be harmful. that would outweigh the benefits in my view. i thought i made that clear before.

I wasn’t certain if that was the case. That’s clear now. Thanks!

i don't see how that's not what he did. the document says it's optional and the "feel good"-factor isn't hidden. making people comfortable is what it is about. you can dismiss that as a "feel good"-gimmick, but if you do that you also dismiss those that have said it helped them.

I would have a much different reaction if this had only been described as a “feel good” factor. If John Stavropoulos had avoided talking about “triggers” and making claims that the X-Card is a tool for enhancing “safety.” I think we would be having a different conversation about the X-Card - I know I would be having a different conversation about he X-Card if he had done that.

Also talking about a tool to enhance safety begs the question of whether RPGs are even unsafe in the first place. John didn’t provide data for either the claim that X-Cards enhance safety (as opposed to the much lesser claim that some people enjoy including them in their games) or the implicit claim that RPGs need to be made more safe. He didn’t provide any data that RPGs are any more unsafe than any other similar activity that a group of people might engage in.

Now I was mostly being facetious when I posted the following:

Maybe he could even combine it with different feel good gimmicks for groups to try out like starting each game by playing a table theme song or even have the group sing the song together; taking a 5-10 minute break once an hour for group calisthenics - much healthier than those terrible snacks and drinks many gamers ingest; group hugs, fanny smacks, or shoulder pats whenever a player rolls well or thinks of a great idea; or even starting each game with a prayer session.

But now that it seems like some supporters in the thread are now seeing the X-Card as just a feel good, optional mechanic that is unrelated to safety, I have become curious whether people who are supportive of groups choosing the X-Card for Cons or even home games are equally supportive of all or any of the suggestions I made above? So does anyone like or dislike these tools. I could probably think of some catchy title if you think that would help.

[Bren]

P.S. In an attempt to appeal to the "They may be too shy" crowd I have decided to modify my public game approach with my upfront conversation. This will be for a "general game" during a "public time slot". I may use my normal approach for a special "after dark horror game" or some such.

1). I want to be inclusive and sensitive to a broad audience. Instead of asking what MPAA rating I might use, I will simply state I run a PG rated game.
2) I will have 3x5 cards at the table for everyone to jot a note on.

"I run a PG rated game. That includes the typical gaming stuff of action violence, combat, chases, monsters, and the common stuff you might see in your average summer blockbuster movie."

"In front of you are 3x5 cards. These are anonymous and secret. If there is any subject that could cause you emotional distress, I would like you to jot that down on the card. I would like everyone to write down "This game will be rated PG" on the card before you include your hot button issues. Please fold the card in half. I will come around to collect them."

"In the course of the game, please remember our PG rating! Do not include graphic descriptions or actions that fall outside that scope. I ask this so everyone can be comfortable during the game."
-------------------------------------

I think this approach is upfront, reasonable and easy to employ at a public game. It fosters continued game play and a focus on making everyone comfortable.

This sounds like a useful and appropriate approach. I would find it somewhat less gimmicky since it is part of the initial set up rather than a continuous part of ongoing play.

At some point, even with the index cards and the PG rating, something may come up that someone at the table will find uncomfortable. But the fact that you already set up a formal process for setting limits should encourage people to say, "You know I didn't mention this when we did the cards. But this interrogation seems like torture to me and it is making me uncomfortable."

You should add what you are going to use the cards for. Something like,

"Since I want to make sure that the game is PG and is comfortable for everyone I want to also make sure that as the GM, I don't include things in the game. In front of you are 3x5 cards. These are anonymous and secret. If there is any subject that would make you too uncomfortable or could cause you emotional distress, I would like you to jot that down on the card. That way I will know to keep the things on the card out of our game.

Also I would like everyone to write down "This game will be rated PG" on the card before you include your hot button issues. Please fold the card in half. I will come around to collect them."

[trechriron]

...

You should add what you are going to use the cards for. Something like,

"Since I want to make sure that the game is PG and is comfortable for everyone I want to also make sure that as the GM, I don't include things in the game. In front of you are 3x5 cards. These are anonymous and secret. If there is any subject that would make you too uncomfortable or could cause you emotional distress, I would like you to jot that down on the card. That way I will know to keep the things on the card out of our game.

Also I would like everyone to write down "This game will be rated PG" on the card before you include your hot button issues. Please fold the card in half. I will come around to collect them."

Thanks Bren! I like your additions. I will add that to my notes. :-)